Tale of three forwards: Cunha, Isak and Barry

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1:31Hello and welcome to The Game, a football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. A stirring comeback, a cameo from an academy kid and a first win in 55 days for Michael Carrick. Manchester United's 3-2 victory against Roma brought the good times back to Old Trafford in a busy week of European football. On today's show we'll also discuss wins for Manchester City and Arsenal, defeats for Liverpool and Aston Villa, wonder what the future holds for Jack Grealish and look at the rest of the week's news too. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me in the studio today we have the chief correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the football correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Jonathan Northcroft, and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is alongside me.

2:14As usual, team, loads and loads to get stuck into. It's Thursday again and off to Old Trafford we go again. With happier vibes this time though, happier vibes. There must be happier vibes. Can I just start by saying that I am absolutely delighted for Michael Carrick. Whatever we want to say about Manchester United, we've got to be pleased for him, haven't we, after this, Johnny? Is this build-a-statue territory? No, I don't care. I don't care. Just this in isolation. I'm chuffed for the bloke. Delighted for Michael Carrick. Really delighted. And, you know, he is a very calm and even person and almost allowed himself a flick of a smile, I think, after that game.

2:50He's been under a lot of pressure. I was at the Chelsea game on Saturday when it was such a gut punch because United had played well in the first half and then fell apart. And he had a press conference afterwards where again he has to answer questions about his future. And there's a sort of Lissandro Martinez. He's dealt with a lot. But, you know, as ever, he was very dignified and very decent in that context. And the one thing he spoke about was the fans and, you know, how he said, I want to give them something back because they keep backing us and back them again at Stamford Bridge. So belatedly, he did give them something back.

3:27He was being able to deliver that. And, you know, it showed there are still flickers of life at the football club. Not even Jim Ratcliffe can kill. And it showed there's flickers of life in his regime because it was certainly a group of players who, after his halftime team talk, were playing for him for sure. Yeah, definitely. And Martin, we'll come on to Jim Ratcliffe in a minute because I want to bring up your column from Monday, which was about the Manchester United co-owner. But in terms of Johnny's points there, it is clutching at straws a little bit, but it was a good first half against Chelsea and a brilliant, stirring second half at Old Trafford.

4:04So this is good, at least crumbs for Manchester United fans and crumbs for Michael Carey. It's crumbs, but it was a good result against Roma coming from a very low base of being 2-0 down and of it looking shambolic at the back again. And they found something. And they found something. And they got, you know, they finally got a bit of luck. They haven't had much luck lately. But they got a huge amount of luck with the penalty, which I'm still not sure was a penalty. It still looks to me like Kuna falls over his own feet. And then Fernandez takes it, takes a bad, bad penalty, gets it saved. They spot a guy that's, I don't know what part of him went in the area because I never saw anything more than him leaning forward.

4:51But anyway, he gets retaken and they score and they come back from that. So you're not going to get that set of lucky circumstances every single week. But at the same time, they've had other things that have gone against them. You know, they hit both posts in one. Yes, they did, yeah. Both posts. Bumo, yeah. You know, they hit the ball. Always looks great when you hit both posts. Oh, both posts. Brilliant. How did you do that? It's amazing. Look at it going. If you paid someone money and went, I want you to get that. You know, it's not snooker. You know. It is a bit like a snooker trick shirt when you manage to do that.

5:24It's a trick shirt. So that was good. And I think there is a groundswell of support from Michael Cowan, from everyone really in many ways, because they look at it and think he seems, you know, he seems a decent guy. He's in the right place. He clearly cares about Manchester United. he's made strong moves you know with certain players like Fernandes and Martinez whilst not actually slinging everybody under the bus or anything like that he's shown it with the decisions he's made rather than coming out and giving you 20 back page headlines and so it could be a corner turn it could be but but we have seen a few corners turned in our time and you know Turn a corner sitting in the middle of a bus Exactly yeah Right come on then giggles Robertson in the corner laughing away at this idea trying to give it positive vibes they won 3-2 Positive yeah Yeah Yeah I can't help but giggle even when you hear Bruno Fernandes saying yeah this should be as you say a corner turn The main thing was the atmosphere in the stadium How long has it since we've seen an energy inside Old Trafford like that Cunha diving into the fans yeah and particularly from being 2-0 down in 18 minutes so that was it was deathly deathly quiet and there was some protests as well we should say there was the protests yeah it all looked like it was just going to be another toxic evening so to end though that positivity is big but we have been here before yeah just to keep there's lots of buts you're all just on Cunha yeah you know it was wonderful and it's all very emotional and stuff like that There's a million things you can do when you've just scored a goal.

7:16There's a lot. He's actually got one of the best celebrations as well, hasn't he? I think. Exactly, yeah. The little surfing thing. Come on, you know it, Martin. You know it. I sort of know it. He was so close. So close. Yeah. So you're going to get booked for jumping into the crowd, because I don't think you're allowed to do that. You're going to get booked for taking your share off. Technically, he could have got booked twice just for the celebration. and then he gets himself sent off. So thanks very much, mate, but you're banned. Now, then he's back on the pitch. Then Michael Carrick is saying to him, you know, you're not allowed back on the pitch.

7:51This is at full time. At full time. You're not allowed back on the pitch. And Cunha's reacting and you want to go, mate, wind your neck in. That's your manager. He just told you to get off the pitch because you could get in serious trouble and a one-match ban could become a two-match ban, which it hasn't because the referee... Didn't sit. has not seen it and I am not the celebration police I am far from the celebration police but your team needs you don't get yourself suspended Johnny oh no I love Matthias Cunha and yeah he's a bampot right I mean I don't know what that means but the very thing that makes him take your shirt off stupid jump into the crowd stupid but that's the thing that makes him shoot that's the thing that makes him score that ridiculous angle and maybe I'm biased I met him, I interviewed him and you're always kind of full, you know, soft spot for those types that you sort of get on with.

8:45He has got a bit of a screw loose. He battled with Gary O 'Neill when he was at Wolves. Our interview was a bit about that. O 'Neill was trying to get him to play with more discipline. But he's a bit of a free spirit. He's also a bit of a classic. Manchester United, in those periods when they're not successful, have always got these kind of flawed genius players. Ron Atkinson's era was full of them. To me, something very... Mark Hughes. Okay, but they were that buccaneering forward team and there's something very Man United about Cunha. Would he be at Arsenal? No. Would he be at Liverpool at the moment?

9:24No. But I love watching him. And of course it was inevitable he was going to commit a second foul and get a second foul. Of course it was. But they don't win that game without him, without his... No, they don't win it without him, but they're without him in the next match. Yes. That's right. And they could have been without him in the match after that. Yes. Yeah. But they're not going anywhere in the competition, so they might have a bit of fun. You never know. Have a bit of fun. They're going through because Port Vale, in seriousness, but I mean, we could have a fair swing. If we put any team from the Premier League into the Champions League, we would have a fair swing in the top 24.

10:04That's maybe reflected in some of the other results we'll come on to in just a second. But final bit of positivity and speaking about Cunha and what that might mean for future opportunities. Shea Lacey, another player that perhaps they wouldn't have won this game without a 15-minute cameo, probably 20 minutes by the time you add in extra time and things. Johnny, you mentioned Michael Carrick and we've all talked about his demeanour and his, you know, never too high, never too low. I did find it quite interesting and kind of joyous hearing him talk about Shea Lacey. And it's listed in Charlotte Dunker's profile that you can read on the Times website now of Shea Lacey.

10:38Carrick saying, you know, we love him to bits. He's a great young man. He's got great ability. Just so happy seeing him defending at right back as I was at scoring. And as Charlotte says in her piece, this is one last really great consistent thing that Manchester United still do. And that Michael Carrick has helped is blooding these academy players who just give the fans so much life. And he looks like a talent, doesn't he? It is. Absolutely. He looks like a talent. He's improving all the time. You'd see he's adding bits to his game. He's small. I mean, that's going to be his problem at the elite level.

11:10He's only five foot seven. But Charlotte's piece is really interesting. He's been working in the gym. it's not going to make him taller but he might more robust it absolutely is the job of a Manchester United manager I would say to draw from the academy and one of my big gripes about Ruben Amarim and there's been quite a bit of Ruben Amarim revisionism online recently understandably because things have got worse so maybe it wasn't so bad well my biggest objection to him apart from the awful football and terrible results was the fact that he the third biggest yeah the third biggest he had this disregard for the academy he wanted to bomb out Kobe Maynou he had no interest in bringing these players through and Michael Carrick if anything has and this is the old United DNA which gets him into trouble as well but he does know the DNA and he does know how important the academy is and at a time that they're losing JJ Gabriel they need an academy hero to come through I hope they just don't put too much focus on him now because of all of that.

12:17Maybe 20-minute cameos are the perfect thing for him. It's got a name like a 1950s sort of lookabilly. It does, doesn't it? Like Shea Lacey. It's a good name. You think, sure, I'm sure I've got something by him on Ace Rockets. Shea Lacey, you know. Knowing your music collection, Martin, I'm sure you probably do. Martin, I'm going to finish by asking you about your Monday column and reflections on your meeting with Jim Ratcliffe. But Gregor, just a bit of a kind of former defenders therapy on this game. That is a big but to this, isn't it? Those two goals that Manchester United conceded in the first half and the way that they're approaching games.

12:49Diego Dallo really high. Your thoughts on that? And also maybe if you want to have a view on Roma as well, because that was pretty catastrophic in the second half. Yeah, the first goal I actually have some sympathy for, Aidan Heaven. He looks like an absolute mug trying to jump for that ball and head it. They're going to switch a play and, as you say, Dallo's high up the pitch. but a man makes a run in behind Harry Maguire a Roma attacker and that means heaven has to be narrow and when the ball's switched that attacker's offside and he's not interfering with play I hate that rule and so it has to be narrow because otherwise you're leaving someone to go through the centre of the pitch on goal and he looks like a fool otherwise still Dallow was right high up the pitch maybe slightly too far over it didn't look good but I have some sympathy there the second one was a shambles Maguire I don't know hacking at a ball then Heaven I get like Heaven's been Heaven's been good for Man United until but in recent weeks he's looked like a bit of a nervous wreck and it's hard to see what the solution is it sent it had for United now and yeah you're right Rome was defending be it the penalty and then a fresh air kick it wasn't a good night for defenders yeah definitely not we'll see where the Shea Lacey plays what the defence will be in a big game against Aston Villa Aston Villa will be looking to bounce back from a 3-0 defeat in Barcelona.

14:09Rafinha on fine form. Not sure there's much shame in Villa losing to this Barcelona team. Martin, I wanted to finish the Manchester United section by asking about your Monday column, which reflected on your interview and meeting with Jim Ratcliffe and what he said about Manchester United at that time. What are we talking about? A year ago now? No, it was March. It was longer than you think. It was March 25. I presume that is there for a meeting, as you said in your column, that makes you continually reflect on what's happened at Manchester United since. It did at the weekend because I was in the ballroom at Stamford Bridge.

14:43So you could see the Manchester United sort of contingent in the corner. You know, Berard doing that thing where he shakes his head that you see every time anyone scores a goal, it cuts to Berard and he's like, oh, good. And then you've got Jason Wilcox who was on his phone to, you know, I don't know. Eddie Howe. the samaritans or whoever i don't know but he was on his phone or he's looking at his phone and everyone looked thoroughly miserable you know hearing what the crowd was singing and it just reminded me that when when i interviewed jim ratcliffe in march 2025 he said if he ever got the abuse at the level that the glazers was getting or were getting at that stage he would you know basically shut up and let someone else have a go and you're listening to the songs and thinking it's a song that very explicitly says very explicitly says in language that we can't even use on this very liberal podcast that we run here it's getting quite close to this now and Jim wasn't there obviously there are reasons why he can't be at every single match because HMRC would then take a great interest in how much time he was spending in the country.

16:03He was at the Chelsea match last... I think he was at the Chelsea match last season. Someone at Manchester United said, oh, he didn't come last year. But certainly someone published a photograph of him and said it was last season. He had a Chelsea season ticket. He had a Chelsea season ticket. Just saying. So, you know, it's a bit of his happy place. So, and you just wonder at what stage it will get so that he doesn't want to do it. Because the fun thing, he said that wouldn't be much fun. Yeah. Right. Fun in terms of running football clubs is something that has always interested me because that's why a lot of people get involved in football.

16:46A lot of people invest in football because they think it's going to be fun. Mike Ashley thought only Newcastle United was going to be fun. What he envisaged was him and his mates going up to Tyneside every week, you know, all the fans, however many pubs there are in the vicinity of St James' Park, laughs jokes and jollifications and everything. By the end, he couldn't go there, you know. And so you just look at it and think, right, if what you came into it, and we can all be sceptical about whether Jim came into it for fun or whether we came into it for profit or whether the two things, if you're a billionaire, are pretty much the same, fun and profit.

17:29But nonetheless, if there was any part of him that thought, this will be a laugh, this will be fun, this will be something to look forward to at the weekend, well, it ain't working out. No, no, quite. It isn't working out. Maybe when the fun stops, stop Jim. Stop. Mate, I was going to make that. I'll just recommend that as a headline. Also, I don't know why they always think that it's going to be fun for them when it's not for everyone else. They're supposed to be smart people, you know? You think, I can do this. Perhaps. This could be fun for me, despite it being miserable for everyone else and people spending all their money and getting a piece for it.

18:03Make sure your priorities are on fun being for the fans, maybe, which I'm not sure Jim Ratcliffe is nailing it, man. No. No, the same reason that every manager, there's always a manager that thinks, oh, everyone else can't handle Mario Balotelli, but I will know he won't be letting fireworks off in his trousers when he plays for me or whatever. And then next thing you know, why do you... At least Michael Carrick hasn't had to deal with that yet this season. A big win for Manchester United and their under-pressure manager. It would be silly not to mention when thinking of Manchester United in the Champions League, Como and Cesc Fabregas and thinking about those words that he said after the Manchester United win, telling his players that he told them to ease off when they were 4-0 up.

18:45Thank goodness, because they beat Lens 9-1. 9-1, absolutely remarkable. Le Keep, the French newspaper, which gains cult status, doesn't it, chaps? I'm up for it. Player ratings, the average rating for the Lens team, 1.8. 1.8. Potentially generous, I would say, but maybe my favourite part is that actually they still gave half the Como team 7. You win 9-1, still get 7s. No big deal. Let's move on to talk about another really fun 3-2 game. Not fun, though, if you're a Liverpool fan. Losing in Turkey against Fenerbahce. Johnny, I wanted to bring you in on this because you wrote a piece about Alexander Izak at the weekend in the Sunday Times.

19:22He scored again in this one. Starting to look like it's coming together, despite this defeat, which I don't think Liverpool fans will be too worried about. But good news around Izak. Well, I think it's coming together for him. And what I was writing about was his process in sort of honing his game to becoming one of those, I think he used the Erling Haaland as a template, but a striker who has fewer touches, less involvement in the build-up and is prolific. And there's data going back 10 years that shows that at the top clubs, that's increasingly how strikers are being asked to play. And there's probably reasons for that around how Guardiola maybe changed football and there's a lot of wide build up now and a lot of you know interplay with the number tens not no twin strikers so the striker's job is to stand in the box and arrive in the box at the right time tap the ball in which is a total art as Erling Haaland showed again last night but Isaks with you know I think he's down 40 % on his touches 35 % and his scoring first time finishes second touch finishes which he did last night he scored with his his very first touch um he's starting to look like the 125 million pound stronger liverpool's problem is the other guys they've paid 100 odd million for still don't quite look like that like yeah and it was a it's a funny game i watched it i mean it was a really entertaining chaotic match it was very chaotic and we know that iraola tries to bring chaos so in a way he created the kind of game that he wants to play yeah liverpool conceded three set piece goals which undermines any team yeah but there was a this functionality about the attack which is still concerning he tried barkler as a number nine that didn't work at all when verts came on it was another florian vert's performance full of nice touches and no real product yeah but at least isak is is is starting to uh be what they thought he was going to be interesting to see what happened when hugo ecotique is fit as well uh trey neoni as well getting a goal first senior goal 19 years old lots of conversations around this Liverpool midfield when you're talking about a near Iola team but he looks another bright prospect doesn't he he's a player and if you think that that number six position is so coveted and so expensive to fill for football clubs and we've seen the huge fees that teams have been paying for I mean you know City buying Boadi who I think is fantastic but he's a young talent similar to Nune in terms of age and profile maybe slightly ahead in his career, but that's 85 million quid for an 18-year-old.

21:58And Liverpool have managed to produce or steal from Leicester's academy. A youngster at 19 who's early days, but you look at his game sense, his ability to be in the right place, his athleticism, good use of the ball, his temperament in these big games, he really does look like a potentially really big player for them. Yeah, another bright spark for Liverpool. And Johnny, you mentioned in your analysis of Izak there, Erling Haaland, 13 goals in nine appearances against RB Leipzig in all competitions, his most against any opponent in the career in Europe's big five leagues. They must hate facing the Manchester City striker.

22:39A 3-2 win for them. Arsenal as well, 2-1 winners against Sparta Prague. Victor Jokeredz, Gregor, got another stat for you here. He's been involved in 16 goals in 25 Champions League appearances, 12 goals and four assists. Good goal last night. change your mind he played well I watched the game and there's a no coming there's a no coming building the build up to Madueckes and it was a good finish but there was no one no one got near him like eight yards from goal like playing against a team who I think matched the longest run winless run in Champions League history 23 games without a win like it matters who you're playing against so like fair play he had a good game but I don't think anyone should be getting carried away yet fine we won't get carried away PSG 6-0 winners at Villarreal Harry Kane with an assist for Bayern Munich in their win before announcing his new deal with Bayern Munich this morning.

23:29Real Madrid late winners at AEK Athens. Jose Mourinho's a hard word for himself, isn't he, often at Real Madrid this season. What a goal by Jude Bellingham. Have we seen this back heel flick? I mean, it's very funny, isn't it, thinking about Jose Mourinho and the hard man. I'm enjoying the kind of love bombing he's doing for his Real Madrid superstars. Jude Bellingham is a unique player. There is no midfielder in the world like Jude. Complete at everything. I don't have any words he is extraordinary imagine old Mourinho he'd have been like yeah not bad yeah it's fine he'd have carried away he wouldn't have you know do you think he would have still loved Bomber he was the guy that told Frank Lampard he was the best player in the world he did yeah but in private though I don't think he said it in the press that's what I mean about sometimes maybe he would have played a bit more of the hard man but he does he is a love bomber absolutely he knows when to boost people up I just find it quite interesting that he's like they bailed me out again I'm still here You see that clip of the kind of Harry Kane love bombing as well of him, I think was part of the documentary where he's in the office and he's Kane saying, I want to reach the level of Ronaldo and miss and all that.

24:31And he's like, I think I'm kind of box office. I'm that guy. Make you that. I can help make you that. He's like, yeah, okay, great. So he does, yeah. He knows something to do with the player. I love that documentary that starts in Jose's office and, oh, look, there's a trophy of one. There's another trophy of one. Yeah. Yes, always the superstar. Absolutely. Loads and loads of big European action, but there was one more massive, massive game in the Championship, Martin Samuel. We mentioned it on the EFL Extra show with me and Gregor, and I said, Gregor, we're going to have to ask Martin Samuel about Scott Parker, not only back at West Ham, Martin, but straight into the dugout.

25:07You must have been delighted. The biggest pet peeve of yours, I say, of many. One of many. Do you want to know how notorious you are for this pet peeve? I've had several listeners get in touch before this show to say Martin Samuel must be chuffed that Scott Parker went straight into the dugout and I was chuffed when Nuno did it as well because Nuno got appointed on the Saturday morning and he was in the dugout at Everton on the Monday night what if your club's in trouble if you're going nowhere or whatever at the end of the season and you know you're drifting along and you know finish 12th take as much time as you like don't turn up but if your team's in trouble get to frigging work Yeah.

25:47And he needed to. Which he did. And he needed to. At half time, three nil down. Yeah. Pick the right team. That could be the first team. Forget all this. What was he wearing? Was it? The cardigan stripes? Mate, I was so distracted by the fact we were three nil down by half time. Right. And then, as soon as they scored one, second half, you're thinking, like, I've got a long time here. Yeah. You know, so now it's like being two nil down with 40 minutes to go. game was far from lost here by the end of it you're almost quite disappointed he didn't get a fourth yeah but he certainly made an impact at halftime i don't know if it was his team or whether he he'd definitely be saying it wasn't oh yeah you would be going it's my team in the second yeah yeah because you know they didn't um pick kante for instance who most west ham fans will say he's been there been the best player this season there's a there's a few there that i mean they've got work to do in January.

26:48Yes. They've got work to get them rid of it as much as anything else of, you know, the various transfers, stumers. Good appointment, though? Yeah, look, yeah, absolutely. Fine. Personally, I would have let Nuno take the two away games because West Ham hadn't lost away from home. They're the only team in the championship that hadn't lost away from home all season, won through, drawn through. So I would have actually, bearing in mind, that West Ham last night and on Saturday are away from home, I might have let Nuno see it into the international break. And then regardless of what those results were, I've said, mate, we want to make the change and Scott Parker's available and we like Scott Parker.

27:27Because I do think he's a good manager. I've always felt he got quite unlucky every single time he comes up. He comes up, he doesn't really have the tools. And the way that modern football works, no one makes allowances for that, or very few. chairman ever make allowances for that so yes in that respect positive in that respect positive you know first half as disastrous as you'll ever see yes if it's any if it's any consolation watching former lincoln player jack morland score a hat trick for it was also pretty heartbreaking to me as well i can imagine mate listen free free at the end if you want more football league analysis and championship discussion just go mental just go back just go back in your feed just a touch and you get a bit more of me and Gregor Robertson chatting about the Championship League 1 and League 2 I'm going to get you on Bill over the end of the season on the EFL Extra please do on the EFL Extra I don't mind we'll do it go on an EFL Extra I could have told you that Swansea Swansea are no cop that's all Swansea are no cop Swansea are no cop at all loads more still to come on this show though after the break we've got a little quiz question a Como inspired quiz question to take us to that break Como's biggest win away win in Champions League history, the biggest.

28:43Their eight-goal margin equals the competition's overall record matching Real Madrid's 8-0 win against Malmo in 2015 and which 8-0 win for an English team in 2007. Find out after the break.

29:05Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's G-O-O dot G-L-E slash workspace with Gemini.

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30:53Welcome back to The Game, a football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clarke and I've got Gregor Robertson, Johnny Northcroft and Martin Samuel with me in the studio. Quite a tough quiz question this. We nearly got there and I'm going to give Martin Samuel half a point because he nearly got there. The answer was Besiktas, Liverpool's 8-0 win over Besiktas in 2007. Got all the component parts there. We had a Liverpool win against a side like Fenerbahce. Loads more still to come in this show. We're going to talk about Everton, a bit of love for Tiano Barry and the situation with Jack Grealish as well.

31:26But first, I wanted to talk about the incredibly sad news of the death of Tenerife striker Jesus Di Miguel Al-Ameda, who died during their match against Andorra earlier this week. The incident happened in the closing stages of the game when the Andorra goalkeeper Jesus Awanjo rushed out of his area to intercept a long ball and collided with Di Miguel, striking him with his knee. Matt Lawton reporting on The Times' website yesterday that Awanjo is now unlikely to face criminal prosecution, a local official has said. Martin, you're potentially going to write about this this weekend. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

32:01So we wanted to just kind of tease a bit of that Sunday Times column now on this topic, hugely sensitive topic, of course, but your thoughts on it in relation to football as a whole because it potentially brings up a topic that you're quite passionate about and have been talking about for a long time. For a long time, yeah. But it's not the first time that you've seen something. where someone could get killed. And what has happened here is, the most terrible thing that could have happened has happened. We've had quite a few new misses. In Hume with Chris Morgan, which was an elbow. Even Mateta last season against Millwall, which was a terrible challenge.

32:46There's another one that probably everyone forgets. I think it was Mason Holgate pushes Firmino straight into the barriers and feel like full pushes him. And on all of those occasions, I have written, one day someone's going to get killed. If you don't start distinguishing between violent conduct that's a foul and violent conduct that is potentially life-endagery. What happened there, there's no reason, There's no doubt that the goalkeeper does not mean anything to happen, not just something of this serious. She doesn't mean to injure the player or whatever, but there is a certain recklessness between running full pelt at another person and jumping, and you've got your knee forward, which as Gregor and I were talking about, is how goalkeepers are trained to police a situation, is to put your knee out.

33:51There's always the potential for some horrific consequence. And whenever you sort of write around that subject, people always say, oh, the sport wants to become soft. No, no, no, it's not about making the sport soft. But we've got so much stuff now to do with head injuries and to do with science that we're finding out. And yet there's some very clear and obvious stuff that it doesn't need 30 years of MRI stands and reports or whatever, where you go, right, this is above and beyond a normal piece of play. And people have got to learn to be more responsible. Now, when you say those people, do you mean the people who govern the game or the players themselves?

34:37The people who govern the game and players, you've got to remember that there should be a completely different, and I'm not talking about manslaughter charges or anything like that, but there should be a completely different air, level, sorry, area of punishment and responsibility. Right. To get a sense of responsibility. And that players should then have that in their mind in the game, a knowledge that... I can't come frying out with my knee up because... And it sounds ridiculous to start talking about 10 match bans or six-month bans when someone has died. But that's the only way you can police a game of football.

35:17You can't police a game of football for what happens if someone dies. And as Gregor is, I'm sure, about to tell us, because we were sitting together and he was looking at it, he's not as uncommon as you think, this sort of stuff. Gregor? thoughts obviously having played the game and as Martin said looked at this incident as we all have yeah it's remarkably sad you go into a football pitch aware of a degree of risk but never a life and death risk, you think about risk as an injury I had a double leg break, a rupture of my Achilles I even had in a Scotland 21s game a knee in the back for my own goalkeeper who was coming out I was backtracking and and he was coming forward and he called, shouted late, and you don't have time to pull out.

36:06And I got one in the lungs and I couldn't breathe for what felt like a very long, long time. Clearly I was okay. Everything you talk about sounds trite when this has happened. But all I'm saying is, as a footballer, risk means injury. You have awareness of that. You never have any concept or thought about life and death. And Martin's right. I just looked at a kind of very sad and obviously morbid list of footballers and it is more concerned around the world, but there have been numerous collisions. Clearly, the other thing is you think when you hear this news, you think a heart issue or something, but for it to be an impact and something that feels like, it's not even right to say avoidable, but feels like it was a very dangerous collision, an incident, it just makes it even sadder.

36:59Johnny? All I'd add is, I think in my childhood, and I'm sure Martin remembers it too, we had Harold Schumacher and Patrick Battistone, which is one of the most notorious incidents in World Cup history when the German goalkeeper Schumacher comes flying out of his box with knee raised, just goes straight into Battistone, went to hospital didn't he? Yeah he did, he had oxygen on the pitch and yeah the first time I could remember that. And that was shocking at the time and at the time what you're talking about, you thought somebody could be really harmed with that kind of challenge at some point and it is Martin's point about how there isn't enough of a distinction between absolute recklessness and i suppose your common harm causing but not absolutely you know totally reckless bit of behavior um on the on the pitch and and felt that ever since the batterstone instead which just seemed extreme but you do get them that that there has to be something to to make a player think twice about how they're going to go into a challenge a really sad situation our thoughts with everyone at tenerife as well as de miguel's family you can read martin samuels sunday Times column on the website this weekend.

38:21Let's get back to talking about some of this midweek action. I wanted to come back to Monday night and Everton's victory against Newcastle. We don't often do this on Thursday's show, but I'm quite fascinated around Everton this season. I'm going to come on to Tiano Barry in a second and he's starting to fall slightly in love with him. But Jack Grealish, Johnny, a really interesting situation at Everton with him at the moment. He missed the last two games. David Moyes explaining that he's not available for selection. Tell us as much as you can about the situation as you understand it. And then Martin and Greg, I want your thoughts on Jack Grealish at this point in his career and life within football.

38:58Well, the first thing I'd say is it's not the biggest surprise. I think if you're close to Everton and you've got a bit of knowledge about where Grealish has been, it's not the biggest surprise that there's this crisis point. I think we'll be slightly careful about what we're saying because actually it is probably for the football club and for the player to talk publicly about this. But, you know, there's two things. I think everyone loves Jack Bielish. We all love how he plays. And we all love the person he is. He's a very generous person and somebody who brings a lot of joy. And I guess that mitigates some of the backlash.

39:40But ultimately, he's been missing training and hasn't been in the right state to train or play, which for any professional footballer isn't great. And there were concerns about re-signing him for those very reasons within the football club, but they decided to do it anyway because perhaps they thought that's something that the fans really wanted. But I would say that Everton fans are pretty savvy, so they're not particularly happy how it's turning out at the moment. I hope it resolves itself. I hope Jack Grealish can get back on the pitch. I hope he can sort himself out. I hope for Everton's sake that they get him back as well because we know what a good player he can be.

40:22But in his absence, it also isn't a surprise to me that they've played like they have because David Moyes is extremely good at circling the wagons and using adversity to produce great performances. And, you know, Tyler Dibbling, Tyric George, who both play in Grealish's position, have been fantastic. Yeah. Particularly Tyric George on Monday night. Yeah. And, yeah, look at Everton. I mean, in a week that West Ham sacking another manager, David Moyes could end up in the top four. Yeah. David Moyes doing a brilliant job. Just on Grealish Martin. It is another English talent. You know, he's still only 31, Jack Grealish.

41:05Like, this could have been a fantastic chapter in his career. post-Manchester City, post-Treble, post all those celebrations and those brilliant pictures. I think Bradley Ormish, a Times photographer, took a great one of him enjoying those celebrations. This could have been a brilliant chapter in his career still, particularly the way he plays the game. You can play that game, that creative game at 31, no problem in modern football. It is a great shame that he doesn't seem able to produce that, isn't it? Yes, it is. But you see this, we've seen this a few times in the last year or so, a couple of years, with players, really, really gifted players, that have completely lost their way for whatever reason.

41:45And, you know, you think of Dele Alli, you think of Raheem Sterling, Jadon Sancho even, and now Jack Grealish. And very young people are burning up their careers at a very young age. Whatever problems Jack Grealish has got that leave him unable to train properly and unable to be ready to be selected by Everton, it's a loss because he's a fabulous talent. So it's a terrible way. It was a great opportunity for him after it didn't work out at the end with Manchester City. But then you do wonder whether the reason it didn't work out at the end at Manchester City was for similar sort of reasons to this.

42:31Yes. And in the modern game, you can't do that anymore. or the, you know, tales that people tell about, you know, the 60s and what. It's not the same now. It's not the same now. Unless you're on it, you know, you're in trouble. Yeah, absolutely. And as Johnny says, with some bright young things keeping him out of the team, probably on merit anyway. Greg, Johnny, I'm quite right to lavish a bit of praise on Everton and the job David Moyes is doing with. Every time I look at Everton's squad, I think that is tiny. That is a really, really small squad. and the actual meat of it is a lot of people like George Hayden Hackney, Tyler Dibbling, people that you're not necessarily like you are a bob-on, nailed-on starter in the Premier League every week.

43:14And another one, Giano Barry, who I really am. The people on this podcast often mock me for my slight naivety and romantic side. I love the guy. He's great. God loves a trier. He might miss a few, but he scores a few and his celebrations are great. Do you see him dancing at the end on the pitch for the Everton fans? absolutely fantastic one of my favourite things about Thierry Nibari is actually any time David Moyes is asked about Thierry Nibari because he cannot give him any praise he's like you know I think he's always saying he can do better like he needs to do this he's he's coming on he just seems reluctant to and I don't that's not a criticism I'm sure David Moyes knows he's doing that for a reason he's trying to push him he's trying to make him better saying he does need to be better he needs to you know be more clinical probably I haven't said that I think that was his 8th what was it his 8th goal in 12 games in all comps yeah he's getting some goals he scores so he does miss a few but he's without them if everyone didn't have him they'd have no striker for a star well yeah they're thinking crikey we need another striker he's the only one we have but he's stepping up Johnny just on him I always wanted to bring in I spoke to Tony Cascarino as I often do for his column that he runs in the game supplement and you talked about Tiena Barry a few weeks ago and his sympathy as a former striker having nowhere to hide having also having no one to bounce off in training a fellow striker you know gregor you talk you know defensive units goalkeepers union all this stuff that works for strikers as well and tony was saying how he's got no one to hide behind he's not got a 30 year old experienced pro to maybe go i'll start this one in the league cup or whatever you can come on for 20 minutes david mollard just has to keep playing him over and over again and that's why he probably scores a few because he had so many chances.

44:58He's the only one there. Yeah, and it's a lonely furrow in a Moyes team, as Michel Antonio would tell you if he was here, because you do a lot of running. You've got to close down the entire defence. Moyes, I suppose he's had a bit of a love-hate relationship with strikers over the years, Michel Antonio being a case in point who, he wouldn't really praise Mickey either, no matter what he did. But there's something really endearing about Barry. Sometimes he gets his feet caught so badly that you know that left footed fresh air board laying fresh air shot it's amazing my goodness it's like it is Sunday league stuff as they say but his ability to be there you know he might not have silky innate finishing but he's got a brilliant innate sense of where to be as a striker he's willing as the day is long he plays with a bit of joy about him and it would be it'd just it'd be wonderful if he could you know get to like 20 goals or something.

45:57We're all rooting for him. Come on, Tia. Come on, come on. The ability to be there, the ability, you know, that's you. You look at Nicholas Jackson now and everyone is saying, oh, Nicholas Jackson. And he was a liability with his temperament because, you know, not only could you not rely on him to score, you couldn't rely on him to stay on the pitch. But if you actually look at his record for Chelsea in that first season or whatever, it's about 14 goals or competitions or but it's about 14 goals and he missed twice as many as that so you're thinking he does know where to be he does know where to be he just needs to refine this a little bit come on Tieno Barry come on maybe if he scores 20 goals this season we could get him a tribute shirt on our wall in the studio behind him he'd happily replace my shirt no problem that you can see if you watch the show yeah we'll see it would do that yeah Won't be replacing Martin Samuels.

46:56Speaking of strikers and maybe one who's a little bit more prolific than Teono Barry, the news just breaking now, chaps, as we're recording this show, that Cristiano Ronaldo has retired from international football with Portugal. Announcing that just as we're recording the show. He's put out a statement. Do you reckon it's long? It's bloody long. If I read it all out, we'd be well over time and producer Neil would be in trouble. But the start of it says, to the Portuguese people, the day has come for me to hand back the number seven. Because it was mine. Actually clarifies, Johnny. Hand back the number seven shirt of our national team.

47:30I never felt it belonged to me alone. But for 23 years, I had the privilege and responsibility of wearing it, defending it and carrying it with me into stadiums all around the world. Today, the time has come for me to pass it on to the future. You could end it there. It's about 300 more words of that and the rest. You can read probably most of them on the Times website now. I am delighted that he has decided to retire, not out of anything against Cristiano Ronaldo himself, but just as we deal with stories and narratives, and this one now has a full stop. And as a sports editor, I'm absolutely delighted about that as we head into another international break.

48:07I tell you what sums up Ronaldo. I was at the Ballon d 'Or a week ago, last Monday or whatever it was, and every time Ronaldo's face came on the screen, because they were forever playing footage of past winners and this and that. There were boos in the auditorium. Messi went up, everyone was cheering, it's Messi. This was footballers, this was influencers, the audience. Everyone's booing every time Ronaldo's face pops up. And then two days later, he wins the fans' votes for the boat, the Ballon d 'Or of all time, beating Messi. And it's a love-hate relationship the whole world has with the guy.

48:42I couldn't believe that boat thing, by the way. I couldn't believe that, but I was working the night with you, Johnny. I honestly, when I saw it, I was like, is this a parody? Yeah. Are they taking the piss out themselves here? What's the boat? You can't come up with an award and call it the boat. There was a lot of parody about the whole thing. There was a lot of parody about it. I mean, the line artist who's on that piano was amazing. But no, I mean, look, I'm glad that he's retired before it gets any worse, shall we say, because this is one of the best footballers that's ever lived, without a doubt.

49:09Without a shadow of a doubt. And this is a person who, for Portuguese football, him and Mourinho have been the two sort of pillars that have lifted portuguese football on their shoulders in the last 25 years um so he doesn't you wouldn't want him to go out um with you know the world cup wasn't a terrible tournament for him it wasn't amazing but he he had his moments yep and he probably you know maybe shouldn't been there but he did have his moments but you wouldn't wanted them to drag on to try for another for euros and to go on any longer uh so i think it's just in time uh maybe he'll he'll I don't know if in the statement there's anything about a farewell game.

49:48I've heard a notion of that. There will be. He's not just bowing out. There will be, but it's too long for me to possibly find out. I hope he gets that. And we can maybe move on and remember him fondly as a player. Yes. Bad news for Wales fans though. They've got Portugal coming up. Portugal might be better now that he's not in the team playing with 11 rather than playing with 10. And speaking of that international break to come, Johnny, we're getting an England squad tomorrow on Friday. Interested to see. It's a big, big match is coming up, particularly that game with Spain. And of course, we've got the home game with Croatia when we can welcome back the Ballon d 'Or winning Harry Kane as he sets a new England appearance record as well.

50:30Expecting any interesting shouts in this squad? Difficult to say at this stage, of course. It's difficult to say. There's a lot of injuries. And actually, you mentioned Kane. the biggest lack is who on earth are the other number nines. I think it was Calvert-Lewin in the last squad. He's done very little since. Solanke's not really knocking on the door. Liam De Lapp's not even near the door. I think Ollie Watkins has been having a bit of a tough time of it. Ivan Tony's had his troubles. So I'm not clear who the other number nines are going to be, but... Quite a shame Will Lanxier maybe tweaked a hamstring for Middlesbrough this week.

51:04He didn't play in their game at Wrexham. he might have been too early maybe but look I haven't seen enough of him I've heard really good things about him and he might have been worth a look that's where England are I think maybe we'll see that Ben White might come in I think Tuchel likes him it'll be interesting to see if Trent is picked again I'd love to see Kieran in Dewisbury Hall get a show I mean there are some lots of options at number 10 and maybe Cole Palmer who I'm a big fan of I know he hasn't been at his best but I do think he's just such a talent has got a big call to come in but just you'd love to see juice be all rewarded for his continual improvement and watching that game on monday night his ability to dominate a game i think that's i think there's been real growth in him as a player and you always want players with character on the international stage because a lot of it's handling the pressure so i'd love to see him have a go absolutely be really interesting to see who thomas tucall picks you can keep up to date with the latest from you don't think he picks palmer no no i don't think he does either he was at the chelsea game Oh no.

52:07Why not? Do you think with Cole Palmer, is this a kind of stance for life from Thomas Tuchel? Not in a bad way, but just like me and Cole Palmer ain't a fit. He went out of his way in the last camp to tell us how unhappy he was about Cole Palmer not being there. He made the point of doing so that way when he talked to the press. He will take a little bit of time to get over that. Yeah. Do you think it's for that reason, Martin, or do you think it's for a playing style thing? I think it's partly for that reason. And I think he was at Chelsea. Well, I know he was at Chelsea versus Manchester United.

52:39And I don't think in the first half, Palmer did enough. I think he was better in the second half. But he didn't do enough of the stuff that Morgan Rodgers did. You know, getting the ball and running at him, which is what you really want from Palmer. He really can do that. And I don't think he did enough of it. If I was Tuchel sitting up in the director's box, and if I was Tuchel looking at that and I'm trying to find a reason to put him back in, because you've got a reason to leave him out because he's messed you about the last time. So I'm trying to find a reason to put him back in. I didn't see it in that game.

53:20Interesting. I didn't see it in that game. Interesting. We will see who Thomas Tuchel picks. As I say, Johnny Northcroft and Kit Shepard will be keeping you up to date with that announcement on the Times website on Friday. We will leave it there for now, though. Gregor Robertson, Johnny Northcroft, and Martin Samuel, thank you very much for joining me. As always, thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Monday. We'll see you then.

53:48Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, The Headline Hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini.

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