Is Pochettino the answer for Manchester United?

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1:10Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. So after David Moyes, Louis van Gaal, Jose Mourinho, Oli Gunnar Solskjaer, Eric Ten Hag, Ruben Amarim and Michael Carrick. It looks set to be Mauricio Pochettino's turn to try and save the crumbling giant that is Manchester United. Is Pochettino the right choice? Should he set his sights any higher than avoiding relegation? Will Jason Wilcox and Omar Barada ever be at risk themselves? And has a club legend ever been treated as poorly as Carrick, who, at the time of recording this podcast, is still technically in charge?

1:46On today's show, we'll discuss all of that and loads more. And joining me, Tom Clark, we have the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the Senior Sportswriter and Sunday Times columnist, Alison Rudd, and the former footballer turned journalist, Gregor Robertson, is with me. As usual, team, another day, another podcast in this football season where a manager is sort of nearly, definitely on the way out, maybe, sort of, probably. Michael Carrick may or may not be officially sacked at any moment during this podcast, but we're going to give it a go anyway. And I think we've got a pretty good idea of the next man taking charge.

2:19Just want to do quick reactions first, because I think, as I allude to there, Alison, and for all of us, we've been doing many, many podcasts about Manchester United, many, many about the situation with Michael Carrick, probably since that Como game. I think we've all thought it's the end. I think everyone has thought it's the end. Martin, I remember us talking about that feeling like the end. But I don't think necessarily anyone had on their bingo card Pochettino being the man to take over. He's been long linked with Manchester United through his career. Now he ends up with the job in possibly the worst scenario he could have imagined.

2:52What are our reactions right now to the situation? I did think, Tom, when he said what he said when he signed the new contract,

3:03Martin Samuel: you did think at the time well that leaves him open to just walk out on them if with Team USA yeah if something comes along so what was it he said that you thought he basically said it wasn't like the last time he gave the view it wasn't like the last time when there was a World Cup to prepare for it was a sort of different situation as in I'll keep this until something else and you're just thinking that sounds like a bloke who is open to offers and wants it to be known that this is a very different situation. There was always the possibility that the next time the Manchester United job came up, he could be in the running for it.

3:43Martin Samuel: I don't think people were expecting, any of us were expecting really, given the way they ended last season, was that the Manchester United job would be coming up in November. And the thing is with this job, Every time it comes up, it's actually worse than the time before. It's, you know, if you look, I made the point in a piece I did this morning that if you look at the circumstances which Amorin took over, they were getting 1.36 points per game. They were 13th in the league. If you get 1.36 points per game, you come about 13th in the league. That's where you are. You're in the lower mid table.

4:26Martin Samuel: you're not going to get relegated. Now, it's virtually the same point in the season. It's midway through November. They're now getting 0.8 points per game. They're in the relegation zone. And if you get 0.8 points per game over 38 matches, the one thing we can guarantee is you will be relegated because no one has ever stayed up with ballpark 29 points. It actually keeps getting worse, this job. the next guy God knows the state of Manchester you know they'll be trying to get into the playoffs championship playoffs they've been trying to get Pochettino the circumstances haven't been right for about 10 years there's been crazy that these are the right circumstances and then suddenly it's the right circumstances but you're thinking it's never been a weaker Manchester United than the one that Pochettino walks into and for the club themselves as well talking about that summer they could have had him for free in the summer if they'd decided to make the move for him now they're going to pay about between 7 million and maybe 10 million for him and his coaching staff.

5:28Wonderful running of a football club again from the Ineos guys. Alison? It's a classic case and it happens at every level from international across the board. A not so brilliantly well-run club will always appoint someone who's the polar opposite of the man who's incumbent. Powers that be United would be either acknowledging the failings of United or listening to analysis of the failings of Man United. and they've identified Pochettino as someone who will do what Michael Carrick doesn't do. So United do not have high energy, high press, high intensity. They're not that sort of team. I don't think that's an inherent, it's partly inherent.

6:05It's not totally an inherent problem with Manchester United, but certainly Carrick, who I think we'll all agree is a decent bloke, but I don't think he's been a decent coach this season. It just hasn't. And so the team have gone out there and they've run less than anyone else and they've pressed less than anybody else. and that's not genius because they're in the relegation zone. So it's clearly not working. So they've looked at a manager who, as Martin has pointed out, has been on their radar for a decade. And what makes him stand out in a positive sense is that he demands a lot from his players.

6:39He's not interested in you if you're not going to work hard for him. So those running stats will really matter to him. Anyone falling short will get extra training. he's got a record of doing that, of making players stay behind for extra running. If they're not running full-home.

6:54Martin Samuel: Then Nicholas Jackson. Fameless and then Nicholas Jackson into the ground as a punishment. So they've gone for the polar opposite. They've gone for somebody who they think is a stronger managerial character and then that he'll add more discipline to a team that clearly lacks discipline because they're speaking publicly about how much they dislike the way the club's being run. Just on that idea of opposites, I wanted to bring in some of these quotes from Sir Jim Ratcliffe in 2024. He said, we'll decide the playing style, plus the CEO, the sporting director, probably the recruitment guys, will decide what the style of football is.

7:28And that will be Manchester United's style of football and the coach will have to play that style. Alison, he said then, we are not going to oscillate from a Mourinho style to a Guardiola style. That is not the way we will run the club. Otherwise, you're changing everything all the time. You change the coach, you've got the wrong squad. We won't do that. in modern football you need to decide your path and stick to it it seems they've decided chaos and ineptitude and they have stuck to it in absolute every respect Gregor it is a truly mad situation isn't it Greg? Magistion aid makes fools of us all really I think certainly did in my predictions at the start of the season I keep saying

8:05Martin Samuel: I can't believe it I'm banging my head on the desk here it wasn't it wasn't a don't be nice to him he said they were going to finish second but it wasn't a ludicrous extrapolation. They came third last season. They bought some players in the summer that were not entirely terrible. It's just that they sort of make them terrible. Thanks, Mark. It's all nice and cosy down that end of the table. Honestly, for goodness sake, Martin Samuel's just excited he's been allowed to have his water bottle on the table this week. So he's in a good mood. It's been a long hard-fought battle. Back to other hard-fought battles in Manchester United, Gregor.

8:40I don't know. about Poch like as a man as a manager with a kind of stature and personality to lead as the figurehead of a club the size of Manchester United I think he ticks that box do you? I do because I'm not convinced he is that but we were talking about on Monday Tom Ornett said you know this is Manchester United Real Madrid you know these clubs need a big guy and you think he's big enough I do yeah right why? I think he has the personality to be comfortable in that situation that scenario and to I don't know do whatever he has to do, defend his club, defend his team, like make kind of play the media a little bit, make some pointed kind of criticisms if he has to.

9:22Like he's quite well versed and all that. You know, PSG was one of the biggest clubs, he wasn't there for a long time, he's been at Chelsea. USA job came with his challenges, obviously, as a host nation at the World Cup. All the kind of story places and building like emotional connections and team spirit all that kind of thing it's obviously a huge part of his shtick that's positive when you're going into a club that's in the State Manchester United and a dressing room State Manchester United is but for me the base there is in a footballing sense I just feel that since his work at Spurs which was brilliant he's kind of meandered a lot and like you know spent a while massaging the egos of players at PSG had a year at Chelsea that was I thought was pretty underwhelming although Chelsea is a bit of a madhouse.

10:11Actually, arguably, the way that the USA performed in the early games, group stage games, gave me a bit of hope that actually football has not moved on and Pochettino has not been left behind. The way it ended was bad. Obviously, there were other circumstances about Balogun and Trump and everything. But all the things that were spoken about there that made Spurs so great, like the ferocious intensity and high pressing and hard running front footed football that's what almost every successful team looks like now that was a bit of an outlier when he was successful at Spurs it's not anymore I think for me the biggest question mark has football moved on a little bit as Pochettino being left behind well let's take the idea of Team USA as well because that's obviously his most recent job where Manchester United will be taking him from our man Peter Rutzler spent the entirety of the World Cup with Team USA and spent a lot of time in the company of Pochettino and he sent me these thoughts on what Manchester United fans might expect.

11:12I think fundamentally he is a great appointment. I think he's the right type of manager for a club like Manchester United, which, you know, United have tried the director of football, the modern model, and they've not done it properly. They've not done it right. And Pochettino is a coach who wants to be involved in all areas. He also has the charisma. He can handle the media scrutiny. He can charm the media. He can be tetchy. He certainly had his moments of doing that too. I think fundamentally his main strength is culture building. At Tottenham, that was the cornerstone of his work. He did similar actually during the World Cup, created a very calm, relaxed environment, took them away from the heat on the West Coast.

11:57We also got another hint of United where during a sit-down interview, which I attended with another couple of British journalists, Just towards the end, he had an exchange with his assistant, Jesus Perez, where he was remarking on how Jesus liked to visit Manchester as a fan of the National Football Museum. Perez turned to him and said, one day you go to Manchester United. And Pochettino's reply was, future, future. So a bit pathetic. But also what he's done with the US is interesting. I mean, just to use that as a case study, because he came in and his challenge was to overhaul their culture.

12:31he sort of came in brought in about 70 different players tried loads of people out created a competitive environment which was you know you don't just turn up because of your name you turn up because of your desire to play and I think we saw the outcome of that and the identity of the team which was a very distinct and clear tactical identity you know aggressive high pressing very clearly emerging style it took a year for it to emerge but it was quite clearly there and I think if you're a United supporter that's encouraging in so many ways, but the caveats are manifold with United. The organisation needs to go with him.

13:06The US did, and it worked for them. As I said, it can be touchy. He won't hide it. Whether United's squad is equipped for the intensity is another thing. Mickey D 'Agostino, one of his assistants, is notorious for taking no prisoners, and I'm sure fans will welcome that. United players are being put through their paces, but whether the squad are actually able to do it and then implement it is a different question. But I'm sure they'll point to the fact that, look, United did finish third last year and he is the kind of coach who can elicit a quick reaction in short order. So, yeah, it's 10 years in the making, it feels like.

13:38But whether it lasts 10 years, I mean, form under this, United says no. But Botticino will want to prove them wrong and will want to be a force for change. Well, in the time it took for us to hear from Pete Rutzler with that insight on Mauricio Pochettino's time with Team USA, it has been announced that Michael Carrick has been sacked by Manchester United. so it's officially done now. No room for any changing in that. But let's come back to Pochettino then and I do want to ask about Carrick. But jumping off the back of Pete's points about Team USA, what we might expect as a personality. He's affable, he's friendly, he's charming but he can be quite spiky as well.

14:16Oh yes. Greg has talked about his style. Alison, tell us a little bit what he's like. Demeanor-wise, you must have sat in plenty of press conferences with him. I've done lots of press conferences with him And I find him a slight enigma, actually, because we got on quite well. Right. I like managers who are human and aren't scared to have a joke beyond the football. And they say, when managers who see your face a lot, they can crack a joke and you'll laugh and you can crack a joke back and they'll laugh. I'm a big fan of people who find me funny. Yes. So I got on well with him because I would crack a joke.

14:48Big of you to admit that. I would crack a joke and he would laugh and he'd crack one back. and getting that to and fro with the manager is really lovely because they're not all like that. But then we had a falling out. Oh, right. So now we're really into the weeds of it. This is why. We had a falling out. And it's not just about me, except that he would fall out with members of the press regularly. So he was clearly briefed on what people wrote and said. So he didn't like something you'd written? No, he didn't like a question in a press conference. Right. But when he'd fallen out with previous journalists...

15:19What did you ask him? He would say, he would go over, shake their hands publicly in front of everyone and say, I'm really sorry. Everything okay? And of course, the journalist would be absolutely delighted that he'd come over and shaken his hand. Bunch of crawlers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I never got the apology. Yeah, but what did you ask him, though? I got a wink a month later. What did you ask him, though? Not that I harbour a graduate. What did you ask him? After he wrote his book, in which he specifically said a lot about what Eric Dyer had said to him privately. Yeah. But it was quite an indiscreet book.

15:53I said to him at a press conference, have you had to reassure your players that things they say to you in confidence will not be put into another book? Which I think is a fair question.

16:03Martin Samuel: It's a very fair question. But he did, instead of saying, I don't want to talk about it or can we move on? He leant back and he went, you're naughty, naughty, naughty, naughty. And then stormed off and left me looking a bit like I was ridiculous. So you're still glad you're over it, though. But as Pete Rutzer said in his, that proves the point that he was making. He can be quite spiky. Is that a good thing, Martin, when you're Manchester United manager? because so much we've said about Michael Carrick is one of the only things he seems to is at least held his kind of status and calm in press conferences and things despite chaos all around him.

16:42Does that work? Does that spikiness work? We've seen it with Amerim. We've seen it with Van Haar. We've seen it with Mourinho. It can work.

16:47Martin Samuel: One of the problems with modern media and the relationships with managers, and it is the club's doing, because it wouldn't be, it isn't the journalist doing, is that the world and his wife are in the press conference now. there's cameras there's influencers there's club media everything's going live so the days when you we might have to believe this but when alex ferguson could call you a fucking idiot that was between which he did to you oh and on many i mean spectacular wales we forgot yeah i mean absolutely one that started in the press room at the american hour that breakfast television and thought we'd actually come to blows.

17:29Martin Samuel: Most of it was, you know, I never saw it. It was just between you and him. And I absolutely respected it. You'd never sort of vote about stuff like that because it's his press conference. He wants to have a go. He can have a go and that's all fine. We're talking about demeanor. I want to come back to tactics because Gregor outlined them as well. Demeanor-wise, stature-wise, status-wise, Foch is a good appointment. Look, it's a huge club. I know that sounds stupid to say about Manchester United, but a lot of people talk about a lot of clubs that's massive and huge. Manchester United is utterly exceptional in terms of how much attention there is on it.

18:13Martin Samuel: Tottenham's nothing like it. I really do mean that. I mean, he will be... PSG? Chelsea? PSG? I'm not sure. Chelsea, certainly not. There's nothing like it. Fuck Fergie. When he first went there, I've said it on here, I'm sure I've said it on here, walking around the train room, puffing out his cheeks. Big club this. Big club this. You know, it comes as a surprise, I think, to everybody, the amount of attention there is on Manchester United. So, yeah, but there's one small caveat in as much as he probably won't have experienced anything like Manchester United. It's the biggest for a decade. Like, since Mourinho.

18:53he is he's the biggest of course he is I mean you've got Solskjaer Amarin well Franjec Ten Hag Amarin they're not in the same ballpark they didn't have any Premier League experience for a start like Witzel there's that association and although he didn't win anything in the Premier League his job at Spurs is widely respected like a really young sort of exciting team made them good to watch yeah but and took them close to a Premier League title and to a Champions League final of course indeed and then what he's done since even if we can talk about how successful it was or not there have been big clubs and big jobs and I still come back and I think I say it again I think despite him being spiky in press conferences you can do that and it can almost add to your stature if you're successful on the pitch too and you back it up on the pitch like a lot of the greatest managers are like that but the most important thing is they're successful on the pitch but as a personality I absolutely think he has the gravitas to command the role as manager of Manchester.

19:58But do you think he has sufficient gravitas to take what he has at his disposal and make it great? Because when he was at Spurs... That's a very different question, yeah. When he was at Spurs, he had... I don't think we realised at the time how good Vertonghen and Alderweireld were at the time. And Dembele. They were... Lusa Dembele in midfield, one of the more underrated midfielders. Amazing player. Imagine him in this Man United team. That would solve quite a few problems. You can play the way he wants to play. Basically, if you've got a very, very strong defence, you can play aggressive football, you can play pressing football, and you can give licence to your attacking players to play with freedom because they've got that backup.

20:38He doesn't have that at Man United. I totally agree. I'm talking purely as a personality. Are you saying as a personality? They might do some business in January, but can he immediately, does he have the personality to make those resources work? That's far less certain and I would question whether he does or not I would question whether anyone does We've broadly ticked the box on stature Alisson brings it back nicely to tactics and style and I've read lots in the last 24 hours fascinating pieces of things that you've alluded to about that Tottenham team teams that are most successful wing-backs and full-backs flying really high a midfielder dropping in next to the defenders it's all good you know you've got Diego Dalla right in the rest of the show this is not He's got a lot of players.

21:18He's got a lot of players.

21:19Martin Samuel: He's got a lot of players that could be something more than we've seen them being. At the same time, exactly that same group of players are sort of in the last chance saloon where, you know, so you look like someone like Amad Diallo. Yeah. So you think he could turn Amad Diallo into something special, the way that he turned young players at Tottenham into something special. Equally, if he doesn't, well, then that's probably his last chance at Manchester United, which he's had two or three managers now that have all tried to do something with him. When you get to the stage where it's gone, actually, when you go, right, well, this is not working, he's not quite good enough, boom, he's gone.

22:04Martin Samuel: And there's a few like that. You know, there's a few like that, people like Dogu and people like that where you're looking at it and thinking, okay he could be something he could get him and he could steer him in a direction and in six months time he could be looking at each other going look what he's done look what he's done with him you know but at the same time if it doesn't work right well he's got to go if it doesn't work the rebuild at Manchester United is is bigger than any elite club in the country you look at we can all look at Chelsea and go that defence is probably not sustainable but it's the defence, the rest of it you're looking at and thinking well that'll be alright they'll be okay there not Manchester United but thinking about that squad then and then the tactics and things we're placing a lot understandably on his success at Tottenham which was fantastic to take that team he didn't win anything I don't mean that disparagingly to Tottenham it was also 2019 that he left so your idea Gregor from earlier about football moving on what did we think of his Chelsea team?

23:10What do we think from the bits we saw of his PSG team? I think, Gregor, you make a good point about the World Cup, that opening game. Wow, USA, they're going to go quarterfinals, maybe semis. Yeah, didn't quite work out once they faced different opposition. And I take your point about the Balogun thing. What about his tactics now in this league? They're in the relegation zone. This is not Manchester United's that you've mentioned previously, Martin, sitting in mid-table with a burst, you know, they'll get Europe again. Am I wrong to be thinking that pessimistically about this Manchester United situation?

23:41Going back to your comments that you read out from Jim Ratcliffe about having a vision and not seesawing. I think with this appointment of Pochettino, they're trying to look statesmanlike and they're trying to look like they're looking long term. And they've got a respected manager who can take them forward. But have they got a manager who can arrest the decline? Have they got a manager who's very good at taking a team that are feeling low and without motivation because they're in the bottom three? It's been odd, actually, in performances where there have been moments of brilliance, but a lot that's really quite disgraceful in terms of, you know, lack of effort and lack of concentration and leaking goals.

24:25There's a way we have in the Premier League that when you're in the bottom three, you tend to appoint somebody who has that something which can galvanise you to rise out of the dross and do something amazing. And maybe that is inherently a short term appointment. So do you think this could be? I don't. We don't know. You don't think this is the big vision? No, I think they think it's a big vision, but has he got enough in the short term to get to the step on the ladder where it becomes a big vision? Well, then let's think about that idea of the short term. What do we think the end of this season is?

25:02Assuming Mauricio Pochettino takes the Manchester United job in the coming days, starts against Liverpool, nice easy start for him. What's the goal? Just surviving, not getting relegated, or should it be loftier than that? It should be loftier than that, yeah. it's like persuasive to say Man United are in a relegation battle but if you do sort of imbue some confidence in the players which is his first task then they have a squad that's capable of climbing the table and like I'm not saying you know reaching Europe but like top half of the table I think should be their aim yeah I mean

25:37Martin Samuel: so this is this is the most precarious position Pochettino has taken since his first managerial job at Espanyol. Espanyol were 18th 2008-9 season. They were 18th in La Liga when he took over. He was the third manager of the season. And he got them to 10th, got them out of the relegation zone and he got them to 10th. So this is the first job like that he has had in almost 20 years. Quite a reflection of where Manchester United have fallen to, isn't it, with full respect to Espanyol? Absolutely, very much. Espanyol are a yo-yo-ish club. You'd think Man U would buy that. Right now, they would buy 10th, I think, if it was accompanied with something serious in the FA Cup that took them sort of deep into the tournament.

26:36Bill, in the Champions League, of course, that win against Roma from Michael Carrick.

26:39Martin Samuel: Exactly. in the Champions League if it took them into the later stages of the Champions League whether the quarter finals is beyond them or not I would think so there's certainly eight better teams that would have to be your starter an acknowledgement that this is a rescue mission an equally that it needs to make players better than they've looked if you've got all that at the end of the season then you can start looking at a bigger picture I mean, I absolutely understand what Gregor's saying. It's only 10 games in and then Manchester United. But you do think it's unrealistic to go from the form of 0.8 points per game to the sort of points total you would need to, say, be in the Champions League mix.

27:30Martin Samuel: You virtually have to, from Manchester United's start, you'd virtually be after over two points a game, I think. Yeah. Alison, just your thoughts on that. We've got top half, 10th, good season now from Pochettino and with maybe a cup room. Thoughts on where they're at? I mean, they've got eight points in 18th. Chelsea in fifth have got 16 points. That's where we're at at the minute. Season of flux that I keep talking about. Is anything possible or are the guys, are we right to be cautious about what is, what Manchester United fans can hope for under a Pochettino era this season? They will run harder.

28:06He won't accept them not doing that. And I think that has been palpably what's been wrong with Manchester United. They're not at the races in terms of the rest of the league. And that's why they're in the position they're in. So they will slowly rise up. I don't think there's going to be this boom of amazement. I think in some respects, it's a sensible, sensible appointment if you do want to think long term. And I think they've thought about all elements of him. For example, I think Gregor alluded to this, he's good with young players. Although he's good with the young players he identifies as being worth working with.

28:41I did an interview with Ryan Sessignon who left Fulham. He was the prodigy at Fulham. And he went to Spurs. He said he went to Spurs because he'd heard that Pochettino was really good with young players. And he thought he'd develop him. And he didn't speak to him. He's completely sidelined because he was injured. Pochettino wasn't interested in thinking how will I deal with this player when he's fit again now he's back at Fulham as you know but so I think it's a slight myth to say he's a genius when it comes to dealing with young players he loved Dele Alli I know that much but I mean was he giving that equal attention throughout but the fact remains he has that reputation I think they think they can see a dynasty they can see somebody who can bring through players I think you're giving them far too much credit I don't think they're thinking much of this I think they're thinking He's not the obvious appointment just to rescue the season.

29:33Isn't he someone who thinks long-term? He would be. Michael Carrick would be. As you said earlier, they're flip-flopping. This is the other side of the coin now. And it's not impossible that someone comes in and gives this group of players the confidence to produce the kind of form that Ole Gunnar Solskjaer did, that Michael Carrick did last season. His win rate last season was 71%. 12 of his 17 games this season it's 20 % it's on the players it really is it's hard to explain it's very hard to explain it'll be fascinating to hear Michael Carrick in the coming months giving any sort of clue about what happened this season but it's on the players because it's happened repeatedly and so yes this season is the challenge for Pochettino you've got to get something from them quickly to rise up the table quickly but then they need to overhaul the squad because otherwise he'll be the next guy yeah i just want to ask quickly about michael carrick and the manchester united hierarchy and we're going to talk about crystal palace and england against croatia as well but we're going to take a quick break we'll be back in just a second

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32:59Welcome back to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clarke and I've got Gregor Robertson, Martin Samuel and Alison Rudd with me. Gregor, you mentioned in response to Alison there that we're maybe giving Manchester United's hierarchy too much credit for this idea that they've picked Pochettino with a vision in mind, a broader vision. There is a question, as I stated in my intro, about Omar Barada and Jason Wilcox, isn't there? I mean, the idea that there was this Ineos meeting in Monaco, I'd have been very nervous if I was them heading into that meeting, thinking, oh, I'm just going into chat about Michael Carrick's future.

33:34The running of this club since Ineos has taken charge is diabolical, isn't it not? I mean, Martin, you've often cited them as the worst run club in the country, in the world. These guys should be in real trouble, shouldn't they? Yeah, but I've said this repeatedly. I don't know. Jason Wilcox is another example of Manchester United. ineptitude, like he shouldn't have this job. He only has this job because they completely fluffed the Dan Ashworth appointment and they needed someone to step into the shoes even after Dave Bailsford decided to walk away. Like people have fallen by the wayside and he's climbed the table, he's climbed the rungs of the ladder without any experience, with one year experience, of being a sporting director at Southampton in the championship.

34:19And now he's the Manchester United sporting director, or whatever the official term is. He shouldn't be there either. It kind of comes back to Sir Jim Radcliffe and all the stuff that you read out at the start and what he was espousing and the fact that Manchester United has made a fool of him too. Martin, Jim Radcliffe, as we mentioned on last week's show, a man you've interviewed, this is a huge, huge moment for him, this appointment of Pochettino and the sacking of Carrick, isn't it? There's no hiding place for Ineos now.

34:50Martin Samuel: No, no. and he is sensitive about it I was speaking to somebody a couple of people this week and it certainly gave me the impression that he's reading certainly some people and that he's quite sensitive about what is being written about him I would have thought he's very sensitive about the way the fans have responded because it's everything that he said that he wouldn't hang around for. Yeah, look, they've got to get this one right. Well, they've got to get one right. I mean, sooner or later, they've got to get one right. I mean, well, they've got to get this one right. It is an interesting thing that we were talking there in the previous section about, well, who would you get?

35:38Martin Samuel: And you're almost looking at it and thinking, I saw one of the names I saw this week, and you look at it and think, well, that's nuts. and then you look at it and think, what is it? You know, was Victor Poirier? You know, get somebody in who is a bit of a fireman and you can get him in until the end of the season and then you can make your change and get your big vision and everything like that. But I just don't think they could do another win to him, if you know what I mean. I don't think they could, you know, just in terms of the optics of it, get another temporary fixing to just tie them through another season of transition or treading water or whatever.

36:23Martin Samuel: The idea that they might be kept in the division by the fact that Manchester City get deducted 100 points or 80 points or whatever, I mean, that's almost too great a humiliation to bear that you've only stayed in it because the other lot have managed to do something even worse. no it's um i have called them the worst one club because i but that you know the context of that is every advantage they've got every advantage of size and history and all the financial regulations every advantage but for a final note on michael carrick gregor you said it down to the players i mean where is it sound and before even asking this question i'm thinking everywhere but where where is main target areas what has he got to solve first it's this defense isn't it greg and how does he do that with what he's got I'm expecting Martinez now he's got a fellow Argentinian in the dugout to suddenly look like a well-beating defender again and maybe start making some tackles but is that what's going to solve it yeah I mean like Michael Carrick came in went to a back four played Harry Maguire and Martinez for a lot of the season back in the last season together it helped he had Luke Shaw fit and then you're playing someone at right back who's not a great fit but then that's the basis of a back four that can be solved enough to get some results in the Premier League.

37:44There's a problem in front of him too, still about athleticism, as Ali says, and dynamism and protection. There's not been this vast spaces in front of Manchester United's back four. Again, as we've spoken about, if he wants his team to press high, you've got to have midfield and defence behind it that are brave enough to step them up and support it and that's one thing that they really struggle with so he might have to kind of tailor his approach this season until he can change some of those things in the transfer market So Lissandro Martinez becomes a world-beater again what about Bruno Fernandes in a Pochettino team work or doesn't work I'm not convinced it works does it Well he has to make it work just now Yeah he's got no choice Who are the players that you could be excited by under Pochettino who are the Manchester United players you're looking at Martin you mentioned some of the younger players that you could turn but who would the players you'd be thinking, they'll be good under Pochettino.

38:40Martin Samuel: Believer, but he's injured. I mean, look. The forwards, Cunha, Bumo, are they Pochettino players? And Bumo's got to run a little bit more than, you know, he's running more at Brentford, shall we say. Let's just say that. He was running more at Brentford. You'd be worried. I mean, if you think about it, they've lost their centre forward. They've lost Sesco. Nobody ever mentions that when they're talking about why it's, you know, not working for Manchester United, no one ever goes, oh, and of course, they've lost the centre forward because it doesn't feel like it's a loss. You know, he made next to no impact and now that he's not there, he's making about the same impact.

39:24Also could have had more than one in the squad. That might be handy in modern football. That could have been useful. You know,

39:30Martin Samuel: there's plenty of clubs there. You know, every single time Isak was out for Liverpool, it was, well they haven't got Isak I mean Hekateke got Injol they haven't got Hekateke no one ever mentions that they haven't got Sesko yes final word on Pochettino will he be a success this season whatever that success might be will it be a successful appointment this season I think he'll get enough from them to finish in the top half of the table which would be a success you think yes Martin agree yeah I mean look I I keep looking at Manchester United they can't go down they're Manchester United they can't go down so yeah i i think he'll keep them up on the grounds that manchester united they can't go down but whether whether whether that's success or not i don't know i think it's one of those things this time next season you'll know the direction in which manchester united are going and then you'll have a far clearer idea of what success is because really he should be acting them up than Manchester United.

40:33This time next season when we're talking about Julian Nagelsmann's move to Manchester United. Alison, final word from you on Pochettino and Manchester United this season. The best I can say is they'll stay out. And maybe he'll develop... I mean, I think there's something there with Kunia and Mbumo. I think they could forge... There were signs of that, that they would have a fantastic on-field relationship, which is sort of because of the crisis has dwindled a bit. And maybe Pochettino is the man to get those relationships going. Yeah, very, very interesting. Just a final word on Michael Carrick, the Manchester United statement, pointing out, will and always will be a Manchester United legend, just as he did as a player, conducted himself with the highest standards of dedication and professionalism throughout his leadership and achievements last season will be fondly remembered.

41:20Final note in there, talking about intending to appoint a permanent successor as quickly as possible. Michael Carrick has been treated pretty abysmally by Ineos, hasn't he? Or am I being incredibly naive and he's a big boy and he's going to get a million pound payoff and it doesn't matter? I think the results would suggest that in the end a decision had to be naive. I'm not talking about sacking him. I'm talking about the fact that he's taken training for three days whilst everyone else has been talking about who's going to get his job.

41:48Martin Samuel: But I suppose if you're going to get the payoff, that's what you do. If you're going to get that payoff that you talked about, that's what you do. You just, you keep working, you fulfil your end of the contract, and then at the end of it, they fulfil their end of the contract and give you a sackload of cash. And that's it. Yeah, I don't think he's been treated great, but I think he's actually not been treated great by his players more than anything else. I mean, his players are ones who've, his players gave up on him a long time before the ball did. Yeah, very interesting. Carrick had a chance to look like something other than an interim.

42:27I never think he breached that gap. Very interesting. Manchester United fans, I know plenty of you who listen to this show do get in touch with me. Tom.Clarkatthetimes.co.uk. Moving on to another club with a maybe-will-they-won't-they situation with their manager, Gregor. We talked on Monday about Pierre Sarge at Crystal Palace. Seeing reports of the last couple of days, Thomas Frank set to be, almost certainly, probably will be, the Crystal Palace manager if and when they decide to sack Pierre Sarge. Alison, thoughts on Thomas Frank? Big fan of his, of course, from his time at Brentford and the success he did there.

42:59I asked the guys on Monday's show, this is a tougher job going to Crystal Palace than being at Brentford, is it not? He had a long spell at Brentford to taking them up, you know, from tonight's championship into the Premier League and he had a dodgy start at the club and they stuck with him because it's a well-run club. And they knew they had faith in their stats that he would come good. And there weren't that many dips, but when there were, they stuck with him. It's a completely different thing being a manager with a club that has everything sorted out. It has recruitment sorted out. It has backroom staff sorted out.

43:39You're part of a well-oiled machine. And you can relax. You know, you could be really relaxed at Brentford Thomas Frank because he knew he wasn't under any threat because he was doing what they expected him to do. There were no surprises. It was just so well run. Whereas Palace are not the sort of club that are on top of the data the way that Brentford are. The succession planning isn't as sorted as it is at Brentford. The resources aren't as good as at Brentford. So if Thomas Frank was to go into Palace, he would find a depleted squad, at a club that hasn't worked out how to sell assets for a profit and then bring in replacements.

44:22They haven't quite worked that out yet. And so that's a completely different... People are saying things like, oh, Crystal Palace, it's the right size of club for Thomas Frank. But it's not about the size of club, it's about how well-run the club is. And whether... It's not being particular. they? It's not they're they're really the spotlight is on how badly they're on when you compare them with the likes of Brentford I think Well this summer as well with this squad that PS Sarge has been given it's kind of parallels with Manchester United Martin you were

44:55Martin Samuel: No I was just all I was going to say was that everyone thinks they can Brighton their way out of it everyone thinks we'll sell we'll do what Brighton do we'll sell and we'll go and it'll carry on it's fiendishly hard to do what Brighton do, fiendishly hard to do what Brentford do, fiendishly hard to do what Bournemouth do. Palace have sold all of their best defenders and wonder why they can't keep a clean sheet. And you're thinking, well, you know, it's not as easy. You always get these ideas that people have where they make something look easy. Tom Bauer wrote his book about football and he was talking about the West Ham situation in there and he described Glenn Rode that the West Ham board were looking for a modern man manager in the style of Arsene Wenger Glenn Rode now Glenn was a really good guy he wasn't Arsene Wenger and the idea that you just pick someone that has got quite a modern way about him and he's going to be Arsene Wenger is very much disrespecting how good Arsene Wenger was in the same way that the idea that you can keep selling and keep selling and keep selling, as Crystal Palace have done, it's very disrespectful to what Tony Bloom achieves at Brighton and what Matthew Benham achieves at Brentford and Foley at Bournemouth and he's not as involved obviously Bill Foley but he's got people who know what they're doing What Palace did was well they also lost the guy who was replacing these players in Dougie Friedman when he went to Saudi Arabia so like Palace beat the odds shall we say by having someone in Dougie Friedman who's really good at recruitment and highlighting players and signing them and hiring a great manager in Oliver Glasner who had like a clear strategy and structure and they overachieved enormously like that's kind of what Frank is walking into he's got to overachieve just to kind of probably to keep them up this season and like the other thing we talk about with Brentford how well the club is they also just have a brilliant culture at the club like it's a culture of self-improvement it's a culture that the manager doesn't have to set the manager's a part of I'm not sure Palace have it either and like actually we could bring that back to Manchester United like I know we've spoken about them but that's another thing that Pochettino is on Pochettino to change because when the tea ladies are being sacked when the academy staff don't get their lunch anymore when all these things are going on around you it changes the atmosphere it drags it down and so it's on him to make that positive again and that's an open feat well whilst Michael Carrick might have been sacked during this show PSR has not yet been sacked so we might return to that on Monday's show.

48:01On Monday, we'll also be talking about the internationals, England in action over the coming days. Martin, you're at Wembley tonight for the crowning of Harry Kane, Ballon d 'Or winner, England record appearance holder. I should say as well, good week, Alison. We always like it when our interviews do well and precede good events. Interviews with Dan Byrne and James Hill in the last couple of weeks with Peter Rutzler and Martin Hardy. Both of them called up to the England squad. Congratulations, particularly to James Hill, if you want to know more about the Bournemouth defender. And a very impressive young man with a lovely story.

48:31Search for Peter Rutz's interview with him. What do we think? What's Harry Kane's pinnacle tonight? Five goals, a hat trick? What are we looking for? I'm going to be on the editing desk. I'll be chatting to you, Martin, and Paul Joyce, and Johnny Northcroft and Kit Shepard. What are we looking for? No red cards. Don't get sent off, Harry. That would be a nightmare, wouldn't it?

48:49Martin Samuel: Don't get sent off. No, I mean, look, it's funny enough. It's always a strange thing when you write about Harry Kane because it's almost bittersweet because at one moment you're going, this guy what a guy this guy is you know like his his caps his appearances his goals you know the way he carries himself his leadership and everything and then you go God have you ever got injured oh gee we've got nothing but absolutely that's it it's all over well Jude Bellingham's alright he might be alright and we might see his brother now as well Harry Kane's place you would be playing Jude Bellingham yeah and maybe Job would be playing where Jude is then you could have the top two of them who knows but it's quite bittersweet because at one moment you know you're lionising this guy and then the other moment you're thinking oh fingers crossed dear God forbid anything happen to this guy because all of all of our sort of optimism about you know two summers time or whatever would just go out the window so that would also be no bad injury no red card no bad injury will you feel emotional when Harry presents the Ballon d 'Or to the crowd?

50:00Martin Samuel: I mean, I've been doing this for a bit. The only time I can ever remember, like, you know, you're connected with it. The only time I can remember feeling genuinely emotional was seeing Murray win Wimbledon for the first time. That's nice, you big softie. No, I did, I did. I can remember just sort of a little bit of something in my heart. Something in your heart. you just knew what it meant to him and that personal journey that he had been on, that's the one time I can remember feeling as you say, emotional What do you think the crowd will do when he presents it? It'll be a moment Yeah, I think it'll be fantastic It'll be fantastic to see before everyone just gets on with booing Ben White and flying paper airplanes and seeing if they can have the referee's eye out Yes, absolutely.

50:54You can keep up to date with all of that with our live file on the Times website and you can read Martin's comments from Wembley as well. We'll leave it there for now. I just wanted to finish though. I mentioned earlier about Manchester United fans. This statement from the Manchester United Supporters Trust has just arrived as well. They said, When Ineos came in, they promised sporting excellence, but yet with repeated changes in football leadership, we have seen anything but it is time for the owners to explain themselves and show some accountability. another change of head coach cannot repair what the ownership continues to undermine, which I think sums up this show quite nicely in terms of all the points we made about Manchester United, Michael Carrick, and the challenge that Mauricio Pochettino faces.

51:33But do keep your views coming. We will leave it there, though. Gregor Robertson, Martin Samuel and Alison Rudd, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Monday. We'll see you then.

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