Is Sacking Season here? Sage and Carrick on the brink

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1:27the spotlight will look at imperious Arsenal, impressive Brighton and more controversial refereeing decisions. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today in the studio we have the football reporter and Times columnist James Geerbrandt. The football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Tottenham, it's Tom Allnut and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is with me as usual. Team, a packed show, let's get straight into it then with the news at the time of recording. It's another show, we've had a couple of these lately haven't we Gregor where caveats galore at the time of recording Pierre Sarge is still Crystal Palace manager but Kit Shepard reporting on the Times website right now that Thomas Frank is the leading contender to become the Crystal Palace manager if the club decide to sack Pierre Sarge another defeat for Sarge 3-1 against Liverpool we'll come on to a bit of analysis of that in a minute but Gregor first your reaction to this news as it stands that Pierre Sarge is on the brink at Crystal Palace A bit ironic considering it was one of Palace's best performances of the season probably Without some vintage Alison Becker goalkeeping It could have been a little bit different But ultimately, two wins in ten Premier League games Conceded 24 goals, worst in the league I think it's the most they've conceded at this stage of a season for 25 years The defence shows no sign of improvement And you can see why Palace's hierarchy are getting itchy I have sympathy for him I feel like this squad is far weaker than it has been in recent seasons obviously there's been some big sales which we've highlighted already but of the they've signed 11 players in the window four on deadline day and I can't really think of anyone who's made a proper impact Kalali the right wing back perhaps a little bit he's shown in flashes but their dealings in the transfer market have ultimately left them in this position On that idea of sympathy James you were at their game their defeat against Newcastle at home a few weeks ago and watching this game as well.

3:27This slight feeling of sympathy is one that I hear from Crystal Palace fans as well. You know, we've got a couple of them on the editing desk and they were saying that exactly Gregor's point, fine, the results aren't great, but this is the weakest Palace squad for many a year. Does that translate on the pitch as well, do you think? We talked before about the sort of, the rather tough hand that Pierre Sarge has been dealt, obviously, you know, losing Munoz and Lacroix from in the summer. And he's effectively also, you know, been minus Mateta and Smolensar because they just haven't been fit with any consistency.

4:01Having said that, I do agree with Gregor that he has to, you know, he hasn't made, you know, he hasn't made a positive impact. He hasn't, you know, shown an ability to organize the defense, really. I think clubs like Crystal Palace and all the clubs in that bracket, the name of the game really is regeneration is how you know you're always gonna you know have to sell your best players and it's always about how well you can regenerate that is really the absolute essence of you know the success of teams like Brighton and Brentford and it's also where teams can come a crop up and I think when you see teams that have previously been sort of really good and well run kind of fall out it's often because either they get it wrong or that ability to regenerate is stress tested in a way that is not survivable or sustainable and i look at palace and palace are playing a system that requires them to put three center backs on the pitch every game in the last 11 months they've lost effectively lost three first team center backs they sold motgei in january they sold maxwells lacroix in the summer and shadi riad did his acl in august i know you've still got chris richards but you're effectively you've effectively had to kind of regenerate almost an entire back three in a market where, which is difficult for centre-backs because most teams are playing three centre-backs, whether they're actually playing three at the back or they're playing a centre-back at right-back.

5:33So, you know, in the summer, for example, they had to, you know, they ended up with Axel de Sassi, who was not necessarily their first choice, you know, a player who had been kind of, you know, deemed surplus to requirements by Chelsea. I think Sarge's kind of continual insistence on playing three at the back kind of stressed a part of the squad that is probably like the weakest part of their squad. I think there is certainly a case for them to play three central midfielders. I think they have more good central midfielders and they have good fit centre-backs at the moment. Yeah, a weak squad then, but also perhaps plenty of blame still for Pierre Sarge.

6:16Tom I mentioned there that Thomas Frank amongst the leading contenders to potentially take over at Crystal Palace James speaking about regeneration there there's a man who needs to kind of regenerate his own image in the Premier League after that disastrous spell at Tottenham your thoughts on that potential move for Thomas Frank in at Palace? I think Thomas Frank is kind of like the premium option for like any club who are struggling you know and I think the other clubs you think about Fulham maybe Sunderland the other teams are also maybe sort of just thinking about what they might be doing in the next few months and the pressure they're under, they'll look at Frank and think, maybe we should go for that as well.

6:51Because I think you're right to say that Frank maybe needs to kind of, you know, recreate his reputation in Premier League. But I think not in the middle tier, I have to say. Like, I think, you know, it's one thing to kind of think now, is Frank not quite the right type of manager for the top, the big six, maybe. But I think all those clubs in the kind of middle ranking, like Palace, are going to be jumping at him because he's proven it over a very long period of time. And I think it's worth saying as well, you know, that Frank, Like you look at what Palace's problems are at the moment, can't defend from set pieces, struggling generally defensively, like two things that you would say Frank is very, very good at.

7:23Like his problems at Tottenham were not really to do with the set pieces. Set pieces were good. The long throws were great. And actually they became more solid under him. What they struggled with was creativity, was making chances and scoring goals. So I think as someone to come in kind of mid-season or at this early stage, I think he's a great fit. And I do think with Frank as well, he has waited for his chance. I think he had other options earlier. I think in the summer he had some offers, but he wanted to kind of take his time. And it's fair to say that it was quite a traumatic experience at Spurs.

7:52I think he really wants to wait for the right opportunity. Having waited then, would this be quite a big move for him to take it? I'm thinking about some of his Brentford squads that he had, to your point about him succeeding at this level, with respect to all those teams. I would think there's an argument that could be made that this Palace squad is weaker than maybe all of his Brentford squads, or certainly on par with the one that you came up with. Thoughts on that idea? Yeah, I agree. I think it's always difficult you come into these jobs. They're always difficult because the team is playing poorly.

8:21And I think we've already said the limitations of this Palace squad. I do think with Pierre Sarge, James is absolutely right to talk about how important it is, the kind of regeneration of players, but also managers. You know, you think about Brighton, you think about Bournemouth, what they do so well is they find the next coach who is a really good fit for the way the team has been shaped and the way the team plays. And the thing is with Sarge is that he did really great work at L 'Anse, but over quite a short period of time. And also at Lyon, just for quite a short period of time. It was very much a very quick rise in France from being a sort of an assistant and a youth coach in the system to suddenly doing very well with two big clubs.

8:54And always his thing was playing very high pressing, attacking football. And you think about the kind of the transition from a Glasner team where, yes, three at the back, but actually much more kind of counterattacking, much more kind of we hold and then we go quickly. Maybe that stylistic shift has also been a lot for Palace to do, I think, this season. Gregor? Palace have chosen managers really badly for a decade. Last decade, they've had Alan Pardew, Sam Allardyce, Frank De Boer, Roy Hodgson twice, on either side of Magic Vieira, who briefly looked like he might be something that then wasn't.

9:25Glaston is really the only hit there. Roy Hodgson, you never knew how long Roy Hodgson was going to be their manager for. So, yeah, clearly their most successful manager ever. But they're trying, aren't they? In a way, Gregor, they're sort of trying. You can see what they're trying to do. They're kind of flip-flopping between we want to be stable, we want to survive, but then also we want that manager who's going to take us to the next level. We want to find the Iriola. And then it doesn't work, and then you have to kind of go back to getting the Hodgson again to kind of survive. And it's that kind of like the yin and yang all the time between wanting to be that progressive club that kind of gets that foreign coach who can take you up, but actually then they need to survive as well.

9:59They've never quite been able to make that step, I don't think. And I also think it is a really important move for Frank because, you know, I don't know, look at how well Keith Andrews has done since replacing him. There's always, that kind of raises the question mark about how much influence Frank had on that success. It's about the structure of Brentford and the remarkable recruitment model and, you know, the process, the process driven sort of nature of that football club. Palace aren't that. In fairness, I think Thomas Frank would say he built a lot of the structure of Brentford as well. He would say that the culture there was something that he drove.

10:36And now Keith Andrews is, I mean, I'm not speaking for Thomas Frank. He might say that Keith Andrews is sort of benefiting from that in a way. Like I take the point more broadly about the club, but I think also Frank would say that he built a big platform there. Well, PSR's not sacked yet and Thomas Frank not appointed yet. So we'll put a pin in that conversation and potentially come back to it. Maybe, who knows, during this show or maybe on Thursday, for interesting times at Crystal Palace. James, I just wanted to ask you about Liverpool having watched this game. More goal involvements for Bradley Barkler and Florian Wurtz.

11:03up to fourth. I have a feeling that things are starting to come together for Andoni or Aiola in this Liverpool side. A lot of listeners might go, yeah, but they spent 300 odd million on all these players. It's about bloody time. It's only Crystal Palace. Where do you stand? Is there a nice middle ground that way we can just say Liverpool are looking quite good? No, I think they are. I think, I think, I mean, Isak is also continuing to score. I think Wirtz is, he's just showing signs that he might be getting to, it's been a very, very slow kind of build. If he is to have a good-slash-great Liverpool career, it will have been a very long, slow build to get there.

11:44But Wietz, when you're signed for£150 million or whatever it is, there's always going to be a bit of perception that you're going to be an incredible dribbler, you're going to have a hundred different ways to beat players one-on-one, you're going to have skills for days. And I don't think Vietz was ever quite that player. I think he's someone who always excelled at kind of in combination play with other really good players. And I do think as more Liverpool are kind of surrounding him, you know, you've got Barca now, a real top tier talent. Isak is really starting to play well. I think as that unit sort of starts to kind of become more familiar with each other, I think he played quite well for Germany In the last international break I do just wonder if we're seeing Some of that confidence return as well Yeah, so I'm quite excited by Liverpool At the moment Cautiously optimistic about the slow burn For Florian Wurtz We'll be interested to see whether that continues For the rest of the season We have to now go to Old Trafford again Again Part of the reason for starting with the PSR Speculation was just to resist the urge To start with Manchester United for Aston Villa for another truly, truly bonkers game for Michael Carrick and his Manchester United team.

12:58Charlotte Dunker was there watching this one for the Times and sent me these thoughts after full time. Well, what an absolutely ridiculous game of football that was. There have been some mad games at this stadium that I have seen over the years, and that is definitely up there with one of the most bonkers. Aston Villa, they just can't buy a win here at all. Manchester United did their absolute best to give Unai Emery's side all three points with their shambolic defending. And still, Aston Villa couldn't come away from here with a win. There was a lot of booing in the crowd. There was people where we sit near the director's box that were directing that anger towards Omar Barada and Jason Wilcox that were in there.

13:40It was quite toxic inside, really. It wasn't until the board went up with six minutes of added time that you thought Manchester United can't do this again. and they did. Joshua Zerksy and then Pandemonium 96 minute Unai Emery had already walked down the tunnel. He said he left because the game was over. It wasn't. He managed to do it again and it does paper over the cracks really. I think their defence is an absolute shambles so I just think whoever is in charge of this Manchester United team after the break, how does Manchester United team improve? Michael Carrick spoke in his press conference about it being moments but when the moments are severe defensive lapses that are consistently giving goals away they're very big moments that are going to decide games and they just can't seem to eradicate those defensive errors from from their displays diogo de l 'eau he had a really really bad game here today he was the when the board went up with his number on the fans cheered and then he was then booed off the pitch where they are defensively they ended up with a young centre-back pairing of Euro in heaven to see out the rest of the game.

14:42This is failings of Manchester United's transfer window that they've gone into this season with this back line but it's Michael Carrick that is having to try and find a way out of it so they've got Liverpool next after the international break. Will Michael Carrick still be in charge? I think we'll get a better idea of that in the next few days at this moment in time. There's no murmuring to suggest that he won't but obviously things can change very quickly and for Aston Villa Unai Emery was absolutely furious in his post-match he'd calmed down a bit by the time he came in for his press conference but yeah with Sky Sports he was absolutely furious but for Aston Villa no real big concerns they're going to be absolutely fine this season Manchester United yes it was great for them that they came back again twice in a week this time just for a point but it's just papering over the cracks and they're going to have to do some real work in the international break and decide how to improve because it's a trip to Anfield next after the break.

15:37Gregor Charlotte describing it as one of the most bonkers games she's seen, to be fair that's probably pretty accurate given that she's seen a lot at Manchester United in the last couple of years and under Michael Carrick. It was a bizarre game of football and some truly disastrous defending. I kind of think that's maybe a good starting point for both of these teams. The goals conceded, the times they were conceded, the moments in the game. I couldn't quite get over what I was watching. It was truly odd. Yeah, it was both. It was a different bonkers though. I mean, like, there have been some wild games at Old Trafford over the years where there's going to be a swell of energy.

16:15And we were just saying this beforehand. There wasn't, you didn't feel at any point in the second half after Villa re-established a two-goal lead that United were going to build a, you know, build a comeback. until the very, very, very, very end when somehow Villa allowed Dorgut to stroll down the left and cross the bottom. And a cross comes through five players. It's so odd. Yeah, so it never felt like it was coming. That's what I mean. Although it was bonkers, that extra time added on was wild. At no point before then did you see it coming. That feels slightly different. And yeah, the defending was extraordinary.

16:51I mean, I've said a few times now, Senny Lamins is the latest player to be, you know, dragged into the vortex at Hale Trafford because he looked like he'd finally been, you know, he was finally going to be the guy to solve Manchester United's goalkeeping issues and he doesn't look like that guy anymore. And Diego Dalo, again, just another performance where you wonder how on earth he's mustered 250-odd appearances for Manchester United. That's extraordinary to me. Just on Villa as well, frustrations for them as well though, because it would be very easy and we will certainly talk mainly about Manchester United for this segment but you'd be massively frustrated if you're an Aston Villa fan or Noonay Emery watching this game.

17:30I felt like they kind of were so commanding that they kind of played well for five, ten minute periods and were like, that's enough. And it would have been enough if they'd just shut the game down. It was such a strange performance from Villa who seemed to have a bit of an, almost a hex on them with Manchester United. They always seem to drop points against Manchester United. yeah there's really no excuse for for conceding those two goals at the end and like particularly the first one Dorgoo's run I think it was George Hemmings and he came on the 71st minute and it just kind of allowed Dorgoo to accelerate away from you why are you not chasing him back did he get a knock or are you pulling a caravan what was going on there it was just it was just bizarre like it felt like complacent yeah didn't feel as I said no one thought Manchester United were going to come back and maybe Villa felt so confident that that kind of seeped into their performance and then obviously Zion Suzuki who's been really good in the last couple of weeks came and flapped it across Not a foul by Lannes?

18:32I don't think so No It was the least obvious attempt at what he was doing ever wasn't it? You could tell he's not normally in that position some of the dark arts that go on in the Premier League but not a foul for you? No He came for a cross and even with Lannes walking into him and not even looking at the ball? No. No? I don't think so, no. Tom, no? No, I don't think so. James? I didn't say it as a foul move. No, fun. Okay. Maybe I'm soft now that Lincoln have reached the championship. Tom, I wanted to talk about some of the good, I think, that is in there for Manchester United. I mean, that equalising goal from Tielemans, a really good goal.

19:06I mean, to be fair, I thought Man Utd played quite well for the first half, generally. I mean, I know they were 2-0 down and you kind of feel like... After four minutes. Yeah, and when you're behind, I always feel like teams, they can sort of just sort of in a weird way loosen up, you know, and I think... The Roy Keane quote I've always come back to is like, it's easy to play at 2-0 though. Nothing to lose. It is, yeah. The game plan is easy. We have to go and score, you know, but I thought in that sort of half an hour period, to be fair, like I thought they were on top. They were the kind of dominant, you know, team in the match.

19:34And you're right, Tom, like the attack has talent. You can't get away from that. Like Mbumo, Kunia, Fernandes and Ahmad is a really good front four. You know, it's probably one of the top five front fours in the league. But this team can't defend. They cannot defend. They haven't got a midfield which gets tight to people. It's been run through by almost every team they've played against this season. And I tend to think this United side, when you look at them at the moment in the last few games, these kind of wild matches that just kind of swing from one end to the other, the team is just unhinged.

20:04There's no real sort of identity. There's no real sort of plan. It feels to me like a group of players who are kind of just playing off the cuff. It's just ad hoc. And you see this, I think, quite often at the kind of tail end of a manager, where a team can sort of get slightly random results. They can have these kind of wild comebacks and you think, oh, this is, you know, because they're kind of just playing spontaneously. And that's what I see with the United team at the moment. Of course, they've got talent up front, but the confidence is short. Like I look at the players, when they're playing under pressure, people are giving away like such simple balls.

20:34I just think for as long as this goes on, you're going to get these kind of wild matches. Sure, it's a nightmare for a team. I understand there's complacency, but I also think it's hard to play against. I mean, someone like Emery who wants to kind of look at videos and understand exactly how a team plays. If you must come up against the United team, this is nothing what we studied. But I do think that ultimately this team looks, it looks broken. It looks broken to me. But you talk about a manager at the end there. As Charlotte said in her report and in her note there, we don't know where the standing is for Michael Carrick at the minute.

21:05It is this international break. It does feel like a big moment for a lot of managers, as we're going to come on to later in the show, are we just in a holding pattern now? Does anyone have the sense that Michael Carrick will be Manchester United manager in January? Or are we just holding now? The eye test, as you guys so often refer to when you're watching this, is this a broken team with a manager who can't fix the problems? I think so. And I also think it's a high-risk strategy to keep Carrick. I do. And I think people will say that rolling the dice at this point, another manager, who are you going to bring it?

21:39it's very high risk to keep it because you have to be careful in this Premier League. I know this from covering Tottenham close up last season, that even big teams with big reputations and good players, when you get on a run of results where the confidence is gone, where you can't defend, you can very quickly find that every single match looks almost unwinnable. You look at games against the likes of Leeds and Brentford, you think, wow, they're good teams because they're organised and they've got good players. United could very quickly find themselves in a situation in January, February where they're really clutching for breath again and that is something I think they have to avoid this break at this point where they are in the league I think it's really hard to make the case to keep and stick with what they're doing at the moment I feel like the right manager signaling his willingness to join might be the deciding factor but they'll be having conversations just now but we've said already as a leading manager really going to want to take over.

22:37It's still Manchester United, but it's so far away from what Manchester United have been. The other thing I was thinking about, and so many of their names have been bandied around, there's such a desire and a clamour for an Antonio Conte figure to come and whip them all into shape. To your point about the confidence, I'm thinking he'd break a lot of these players. A lot of these guys are already broken. They don't need Antonio Conte coming in and making them sprint around the training pitch and telling them they're rubbish. Surely, it is, to your point, Tom, It's a dangerous teetering moment for Manchester United, isn't it, now?

23:08The 18th after 10 games. This is not like a bad blip. This is a proper bad, bad situation that could really set in as a rot for the rest of the season. Yeah. I don't know. I see it slightly differently, Tom. Like, I think... You think Conte saves them? I've always felt that... I don't know. I've always felt that with United, it seems to me like a kind of an echo of the sort of Real Madrid, it's kind of management thing where you need a certain type of manager, you know? And I just don't know if United, and I'm happy to be proven wrong, can hire a sort of up-and-coming coach in the Premier League and say, go and do it, mate.

23:41I think you have to have a certain aura, a certain charisma, a certain status to be able to command the belief of the players and also to be able to handle the noise and the attention. And I understand what you're saying about Conte, but the one thing that Conte would have is that he would immediately have respect to the dressing room. And I think with this group at the moment, you need to have a manager come in where everyone goes, you know what if we follow him then there's a proven track record here where he gets us up the league I think bringing in another manager who you know who is supposedly the next big thing is a big risk like I think with United you have to have someone who can who can handle the club and I know people will say that this has been tried before with Mourinho and Van Gaal yeah but you know what like in a way without going into that too much like Van Gaal and Mourinho were not at the top of their games like there are managers in the world where if United had done it properly in the summer, maybe they would have gone for a Luis Enrique, gone hard for it, you know, or gone for a Conte or something.

24:35They are available. I agree with Gregor's point, difficult in November. But I think in the summer, you go for someone who can actually handle the kind of the job of Man United rather than going for a good coach. One thing I would say for Michael Karaki in terms of handling the job of Manchester United, I did enjoy, again, his kind of measured, balanced analysis of Diego Dallo and the situation after the game where a player that has struggled and has been criticised rightly, as you say, Gregor for his performances, but booed by his own fans. And Michael Carrick afterwards, you know, we need to be careful there.

25:02And offers a very balanced and measured analysis. It's quite Gareth Southgate-esque in terms of his managerial stance. Whatever you say about his tactics, I think he has got the management of the situation off the field right. I think that works both ways. I think you're right, particularly in that context. Both things can be true? No. I think there are other moments where Man United fans right now want to see a manager who can convince them and persuade them that he can drag them forward and take them out of this mess and they aren't seeing that. So I agree with you in that context and in some others.

25:35And it's a difficult situation for anyone to handle, particularly an inexperienced manager. But I think that Man United fans are a bit sick of looking at them and seeing someone who's a bit vanilla. Fair enough. We'll see whether they'll make a change in the coming weeks. Another situation we'll definitely come back to in this international break. I wanted to bring in two big results for managers under pressure and managers who now might be slightly feeling a little bit of pressure. Sunderland won Chelsea nil. A huge, huge result for Regis Lebris. I'm delighted for him. And I think a lot of Sunderland fans were as well wanting him to do well, not wanting him to get the chop.

26:08And I think he probably does survive, but who knows? Stranger things have happened in football. And Nottingham Forest three, Manchester City one. Oli Glasner herring down the touchline to celebrate that third goal. Got to say, I didn't have Oli Glasner as a touchline sprinting manager, but maybe that's what Nottingham Forest can do to you. Just speaking about both those two managers, chaps, and both these results, big results for both of them, and perhaps tapping into the things that they both do best. Sunderland, Gritty, Stadium of Light, 1-0 win, Brian Broby being an absolute definition of a nuisance in this game.

26:42Fantastic performance. That was a great run, that one, where he kept going and going and going. It's two wins spearheaded by absolute powerhouse centre forwards. Yeah. won the game for their teams. Roby was extraordinary, yeah. I mean, that one where he, Colwell was shrugged aside and he sort of swung out a leg to try and kick him on the way down and just fell in a heap. And then he accelerated, oh, he's quick. Yeah. And then he kind of got past with Fana and he missed that one. And then the other one where he spun Colwell with a little drag back to turn him. Like, it's easy to say, as a defender, if the striker is stronger than you, give him space.

27:15But I think he almost feels for them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He wants to grab them. Well, that was Colwell's complaint with the penalty, wasn't he? He's pulling you with me the whole time. He was filling him, but it was canny. It's clever. Very, very clever. And Liam De Lape as well. My God. I mean, De Lape was actually really good against Arsenal a few weeks ago and he gave Esri Concer and Gabriel one of the toughest games they've had and just, you know, everything was there but the finishing and then you obviously The finishing. My God. The finishing. No, I mean, that's the thing you often say about De Lape.

27:46Like, you know, I've seen a couple of Forest games a season two and I agree. he feels like a really good fit for Glasner's system as well. Like he can link up well as well if he drops a little deeper. But also when he can drop deeper and turn and run, my God. Like it's extraordinary. And the finishing was just like devastating. So yeah, brilliant, brilliant performance. Two brilliant performances by the number nine. Forrest have been playing well. You think so, yeah? Yes, absolutely. Like I think if you, I mean I know it's not, you know, XG isn't everything, but if you look at their underlying statistics, they should be much further up the table than they are.

28:21And I think they've got, as we've been talking about, they've got a good manager in Oliver Glasner. Good manager, manager who's proven in the Premier League, a manager who feels like quite a good fit for this squad of players at a club which I think is crying out for a bit of stability. I think it would have been a massive, massive self-inflicted error if they had lost that game and pulled the ripcord on Glasner. Just very quickly on Sunderland, anyone, because we've talked about Palace, They're bottom. Manchester United 18th, Sunderland in 19th. They're having a decent run in the Europa League.

28:53But anyone's worried about Regis Le Briss and this second season syndrome in Europa League? You think stick with him, Greg? Yeah, absolutely stick with him. You've got to have some fears for him, but not in this international league. I think this result, and actually, respective of this result, I think he was going to get some backing in time. And it would only be enough if they really, really had to make a change, they would. Yeah. Well, on to the two teams they beat then, Manchester City. three defeats on the spin for Enzo Maresca. Lots of talk after that early start about the brilliance of this squad and this team.

29:26And listen, Ryan Shirky, again, even in a 3-1 defeat, that boy can hit a football carny. My goodness me. Where do we think this has come from? We talk about underlying data. We talked about the eye test. You guys watch all these games. I didn't necessarily see this coming for City. I didn't necessarily see three defeats coming. I thought, God, these guys look pretty good. They're handling the charges situation on the field. they're embracing it as a situation where it's like us against them they were brilliant against Liverpool in that match just afterwards but didn't see this coming anyone surprised by City's drop off?

29:58Surprised but I think it's another team that's been a lot of individual errors it's cost them Donnarumma's chucked in a few goals Guardiol kind of dribbling into this ridiculous area and was robbed by Jairacuna I think it was a step forward like centre and a half really pressing Man City and Gaze had a few as well this season And there have been quite a few individual errors that they've had to try and come back from and they've not always managed it. So I actually still look at them in an attacking sense and I think in Dye's made a pretty encouraging start to life. It said, hey, he always looks a danger.

30:29Doki often looks unplayable. Eli Anderson's been brilliant. He wasn't so much in this game and there's a question mark about his sort of partnership with Ender Fernandes. I was going to come on to that. They signed a lot of midfielders. They did also lose Rodri and I'm leaning towards our man of midfield control obsession, Tom Olmott here but like Buadi looks great looks like a really good player Enzo Fernandes we know is a good player in the Premier League Eli Anderson we know is a good player how odd is it then that you could spend more than 300 million pounds on a new midfield and still go yeah but you're not Rodri or is that not surprising at all?

31:02It's just new combinations isn't it? You've got Anderson and Enzo coming together also playing in front of Gehu who feels like he's been there for a while but actually it's also quite new Donnarumma also you've got a lot of players who are coming together in the last year or 18 months And it feels like we're sort of expecting them all just to kind of click straight away. I mean, I agree with Gregor. I think it's defensively. I mean, look at someone like Gehi, I think, has really dropped off the season. I mean, I didn't expect three defeats either. But I do think you're looking at players in the back sort of five or six.

31:32And they're not playing as well as they were. I think we have to say that the charges may well be affecting. You know, like, I mean, how can we think that that's not the case? I mean, I agree with sort of going from one thing where they happen. And we think, oh, look, they're playing really well. And maybe they're sort of feeling like they're kind of almost unleashed by this thing. But, you know, maybe after a while, you know, it kind of seeps in. You think, well, what are we playing for here? Like, if we're going to be reduced by 50 points in two or three months, how do we get going for these matches against Nottingham Forest?

32:01So do you think it could continue then? Obviously, we've got this international break. It can be a bit of a reset. Players could go off, get injured. Who knows? Do you see this continuing or do you see it as a little blip? Not to this extent. I don't. I think if you look at the numbers, City are still right out in front in a lot of areas, particularly in the attacking areas. So I don't see the whole thing unravelling. But do I see them getting close to Arsenal this season, regardless of possible points reductions? Not particularly. It's quite a bold system, isn't it, I think, that Mareska is playing.

32:31The front four is brilliant. We all love Doku, Charki, Ndi. What's not to love about that front four? But you've got that front four, Charki playing as the 10. and you've got Anderson and Fernandes in a double pivot, neither of whom I would say is really a sort of classic number six in the sort of destroyer mould. It just feels like there's quite a lot of strain on that pairing. And they're both players who want to also kind of get forward and drive into the box. Yeah, yeah. Which Anderson's been doing loads this season. He really has been pushing up. Absolutely. I just wonder if there's a case for a bit of a rebalance.

33:10Obviously, as you say, they've signed Ayoubouade. Does he maybe come in? Is there maybe a case for evolving to more of a 4-3-3 than a 4-2-3-1? To that point, their defeat against Brighton at home was actually a great game of football. Really, really entertaining. I was in the office that day, watched the full 90 minutes, and they could have won that game 3-1 as well. So maybe the suggestion that it could just be a blip and a couple of bad results. Just on to Chelsea in fifth at the minute, We were just chatting with our colleague Pete Rotsler before coming on to record this show. He covers Chelsea, obviously.

33:43And the feeling for both of us was a little bit confused and a bit underwhelmed by Xabi Alonso's Chelsea so far. Lots of talk and excitement, understandably, about his arrival in the Premier League. But a little bit flat so far, not just with this result, but still not quite seeing what we thought we were getting from Xabi Alonso. Well, it's not been consistent. I think that's what you'd see. I mean, it was surprising at the start in terms of how little of the ball they had. Part of that was because they kept scoring loads of early goals, and that sort of altered the game state. And then there'd been a few kind of really below-par performances.

34:22They lost 63 % of their duels in the first half of this game. It was basic stuff. They were kind of run all over by Sunderland. And yeah, the thing is, James watched a lot of Alumsworth's team in Germany and that was one thing they were intense and combative and we've seen that in flashes but it's not consistent and ultimately that's what Chelsea have been for a number of seasons they've a lack of consistency and some of that's to do with the personnel particularly defensively like I said I think Kowal is someone who the hype around him is sort of greater than what he's shown Fofana is a really good player but he's suffered some serious serious injuries struggles to stay fit I think they've got a big hole in defence still and he's filled and that's before we talk about the goalkeeper wasn't an issue in this game but has been in several so far this season and they've not got Gerald Pedro up front either so they're playing a guy who they've been playing right wing back for most of the season Pedro Neto with Danny Welbeck sat on the bench why sign everyone's favourite Danny Welbeck and not play him Xabi Alonso many crimes going on maybe in the Chelsea dugout that is definitely the biggest we will return I'm sure, to Chelsea in the coming weeks.

35:38I just wanted to quickly mention two managers under pressure just to continue the theme, but probably okay for now. Matthias Gaisler and Alvaro Arbeloa, one all draw between Newcastle and Fulham in 12th and 15th. What a goal by Jacob Murphy. What a strike in that one, but some more bad defending. Maybe defenders. Maybe there's a... Get your boots back on, Gregor. There's some options out there. It's gone, yep. The legs have gone. The legs have gone, but loads more still to discuss in the second half of the show. got a little quiz question to take us there. Since his Premier League debut in February 2020, no player has scored more penalties in the Premier League than Manchester United captain Bruno Fernandes.

36:16He has 28. That is the joint most alongside which other player? Find out after the break.

36:35Okay, let's see. We got the four kids. Four gifts each. Six teacher gifts? Wait, oh, what did we get in? Sandy and the dogs. Oh, I can't forget the dogs. Know what doesn't need math? Simplicity Plan from Verizon. One plan, one price. Just$30 a line per month for you or the whole family. The holidays are complicated. Shopping our best deals and switching to Verizon is simple. For new customers,$30 per line includes auto pay and switch discount. Additional taxes fees and terms apply. Hey, we're Nick and Jack hosts of the best one yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer.

37:10With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's go.gle slash workspace with Gemini. This is the story of the one. As a shipping manager, he's running the dock, stocking supplies, and making sure every order goes out on time.

37:44And Grainger helps him stay prepared. From shipping supplies to PPE to hand tools, he counts on Grainger to keep products moving and trucks rolling. So his operation runs smoothly no matter the shift. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

38:13Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Gregor Robertson, Tom Allnut and James Geerbrandt with me in the studio. James Geerbrandt barely went to the break. Straight in with the answer to the quiz question. The man who has joint most penalty goals, 28 alongside Bruno Fernandes, is... Mo Salah. Mo Salah. Mo Salah. That's an awful lot of penalty goals, isn't it? Goodness me. A big apology, a big apology to all Tottenham fans, and there are plenty of you who listen to this show. We take full responsibility for this weekend. The jinx was firmly locked in.

38:46Not only did myself and Tom Allnutt concoct a brilliant piece of analysis about why and how Roberto de Zervia turned it round with those three victories that we published on Friday and in the Saturday print edition. We then sent Gregor Robertson up to watch the game. There's no sure way that you're going to jinx a team in form by sending Gregor Robertson to watch. And so it proved Leeds won, Spurs nil. Gregor, fair result, this one, do we think? Leeds winning the game? Absolutely, yeah. But bar a 15-minute spell in the first half, Spurs were very poor. Like, Leeds roared out the blocks. could have had a penalty potentially but the most notable thing with the first half were two VAR decisions two VAR incidents or checks that they elected to stay out of basically I think to some people's surprise the handball wasn't entirely conclusive it was like the brush of the top arm shoulder if it was not conclusive don't give it good decision second one shall we just get straight at it no I think I want to do a bit of analysis because otherwise we'll be still here on Thursday it was all down to the second half I mean actually that moment the tackle stalled and stunted Spurs' momentum because they were in the ascendancy at that point and they never recovered.

39:56I think that was in the 34th or 35th minute. In the second half they were completely blitzed by Leeds. Leeds just turned up the intensity the aggression and dominated the game. It could have been 3-0. Before we come back to the VAR a question for you on Leeds and Tom I want to ask you about Tottenham but on Leeds we talked about with great excitement at the start of the season about Leeds and Daniel Farker going on a level. Survival last season, admirable survival, good performances. Can he go on a level? Maybe some discussion in recent weeks that actually, not going on a level, but still just being really good at what they do.

40:33Did you see anything from them that suggested they've gone on a level or are they just brilliant at being Daniel Farker's Leeds? Intense, combative, really hard to beat, wins at Ellen Road. I think you saw why they've had such a peculiar start to the season. You saw that this is a really good team, brilliant sort of structure and defensive resolve. I think only Brighton and Arsenal have conceded fewer goals, but they're missing a lot of chances and they're so reliant on Dominic Cavallon to score and they don't really have that kind of creativity as well. Although, having said that, I think they had 16 attempts on goal in this game, which is the most I've had in a Premier League game this season.

41:10Longstaff, Nemecha, a few others could have easily scored before Noah Okafor came on and scored 97 seconds after his introduction so you saw a team that's really when they're at their best are really hard are tough nut to crack they've lost three of their last 19 Premier League games like going back to last season that's a great record a lot of draws that's the bone of contention not many goals too many draws bit of grumbles they hadn't won in five games before this if they'd lost this going into an international break bit of pressure on Daniel Farke not to the extent of questioning his job but definitely questioning his longevity at the club I think that's wild He's gotten promoted.

41:48He's absolutely established them as a Premier League club and one of the toughest propositions in the division as well. I just want to take a moment to hail Daniel Farker. Absolutely. This is a guy who got relegated twice with Norwich, took him down, thrown him back up again, then got sacked midway through his second Premier League season, at which point I think he held the record for most consecutive Premier League defeats overseen by a manager. And his Norwich teams used to concede goals for fun. I mean, they really did. And for him to be in a Premier League job, again, which, again, he earned by taking them up, and for us to be using phrases like, you know, a tough nut to crack, really hard to score against.

42:33Talk about managers kind of adapting, evolving. And I give so much credit to Daniel Farker for how he's been able to kind of grow as a manager and to really kind of change his identity as a manager, which is something we don't often see in such a kind of full way, to be putting out a team which is now tough, physical, really tough to play against, that I think is such a credit to him. Yeah, only eight goals conceded for Leeds, sitting in ninth in the table. Only Arsenal and Brighton have conceded fewer. A brilliant performance so far and a brilliant win on Saturday. Tom, on Tottenham then, in 11th, much healthier position than they were a couple of weeks ago after those three victories, which as much as I was myself deprecating intro to that, was well worthy of analysis.

43:23Is this a little blip or just a reminder that actually not everything is sorted? Because things have still improved massively under Roberto Di Zerbi, haven't they? Yeah, both of those things, I think. You know, I always felt this game in a way, like after sort of, you know, you kind of got a really good kind of glamour victory against Chelsea, the sort of one that you maybe expect them to win at home to Palace. This was the sort of one I thought, this is interesting. If Spurs go away and win at Leeds, then we really can take them seriously as a sort of European side again. It's a really difficult place to go and get a result.

43:53And I think ultimately, you look at Spurs now, they are a much more solid team. The improvements really are there. I don't think you need to go from one end to the other and say they're suddenly back in where they were. They're not. This is now a much more solid team that is much more together. And De Zerbi will say it over and over again, we were not a team. We were a collection of good players. Now we are much more a team. I think that is true. But they still have a fundamental problem, which is their ceiling of getting back into that kind of top six conversation, in my opinion, is they don't look like they can score goals.

44:23If you look at their run in the last three games, it's come from bangers from distance, own goals, or a sort of dribbler from Ben Davis on the edge of the area. Like they need to get back to becoming a team where Solanke is scoring normal goals again, where Marmouche is scoring normal goals again. And until that happens, they're going to have to fight in every single game, these kind of very tight matches. It's always going to be those games that can kind of go either way. And that was what this was. I mean, I tend to think, I think Gregor's being slightly harsh. I feel like Spurs played quite well in the first half.

44:50I thought they were the better team. I agree they got completely blown away in the second. But if you haven't got those players in the final third who are going to kind of capitalise on those good spells, then Spurs are going to find themselves in these kind of dogfights for most of the season. They failed to score in five of the ten games. They create the worst, the lowest quality of chance in the division. I absolutely agree but the most striking thing from the game and you're talking about how they've evolved and they're becoming a team De Zerbe was seriously honest afterwards listen to some of the language he used afterwards things his team lacked hunger spirit character courage personality this was him he wasn't we weren't inviting him to say that he volunteered it and he's still saying these are things that we're letting our standards slip in and if you do that we're never going to be a top team so So, you know, he was asked, can you coach that?

45:40He said, yes, that's my job. But it's not easy. Yeah, potentially a good thing for Tottenham and Roberto De Zerbi then to have that kind of check after three victories. In terms of tough words on this game then, go on, Gregor, it's time. Lots of conversation and lots of discussion, lots of debate around the VAR decisions and lack of interference with this Jadon Bogle challenge, foot placing, stamp, all different interpretations. tell us where you stand on it and then Tom, James dive in with your thoughts The press box at Ellen Road is in a good position Ellen Road is a compact stadium you're close to the pitch you have a good view it was something that happened around the halfway line I didn't see it and I bet 99 % of the people in the stadium did not see the left footed part of the challenge the stamp you saw him clip tell as he turned away and you thought he's rolling around.

46:36Crikey, why are you rolling around? So no one saw it in real time. I think that matters. I think that matters. I think our perceptions are being wildly distorted by slow motion replays. And I know you can't escape them. They were there before VAR. But VAR has given us this feeling that if you see something that you didn't even see in real time and it looks bad, and this is the same with a freeze frame of someone standing on an opponent's ankle or whatever, that it's a stone wall. It's not. It's not. It's something... I also think intent matters. It was completely accidental. It wasn't even an attempt at a challenge.

47:18Jadon Wogle was trying to put his left foot on the turf to kick him with his right leg. You could give him... With merit, you could award a booking for the challenge with his right foot. But the first part of it was completely accidental. So I concede that it was strange that because we have VAR, in the age of VAR, that the referee John Brooks was not sent to the monitor to review it by Tony Harrington, the VAR. I concede that was odd. And when he was sent there, I bet he would have sent him off. I'm not disputing that. But you're pleased he wasn't. I'm pleased he wasn't because it's important to view the game in real time because slow motion replays distorts our views of reality.

48:04I agree with Gregor's broader point but I think he's letting his broader view about VAR colour his analysis of this decision which I think is a red card. Why do you think it's a red card? Because it studs up, he's gone in down on the back of his ankle, it's a dangerous challenge, intent actually in terms of the rules doesn't come into it. He's late and we've seen other ones, I mean Spurs fans will point to the Xavi Simons challenge at the end of last season on Van Dijk, very similar and in fact Xavi was probably a little bit more unlucky because he slipped into the tackle and he got sent off when when and it was after VAR so I think I mean I understand what Gregor was saying about slow motion and about not wanting to over you know over over adjudicate these kind of decisions but I think if the if the referee goes and looks at it on the monitor it's a red card and therefore it should have been a red card what do we think about the slow-mo point though James and and Tom because Gregor it is such a prominent factor in our viewing and consumption of the game these days and how people view challenges.

48:58There's another one with the Igor Thiago sending off in the Brighton game where it's a kind of scuffle. He throws an arm and get off. You know, he's having his shirt pulled. I think it was Kermit Andres. And then there's three frames of it. I think we've got one on the Times website where it looks like a forearm smash in the face. What about Gregor's point about refereeing the game in real time because that's how it's played? What do we think about that idea? In a VAR world, I don't know how you put the genie back in the bottle really you get rid of var james that's what gregor would say tom your thought i would like them when they go and look at the monitor i would like them to see it in real time first yeah i i do think sometimes when they go over and it's like the monitor is ready and it's kind of got the freeze frame there when they arrive and you sort of think well your first reaction there is just to see the the still and actually you want to see it in real time because that's the context that is very important i'm not disregarding that but you know var is var are and you are going to slow it down to kind of see the point of contact.

49:55I mean, I think, I actually think the Thiago one as well, like I, you know, he's gone to push him and he's kind of, I think he's pushed his arm through and up to kind of get an extra bit of contact on the face. I think, I think it was probably a red as well. Yeah. I mean, I don't, I don't normally. Gregor Roberts is shaking his head. For anyone not watching this or listening on YouTube at Timesport, there's a head, there's a head shaking and a resigned drop of the head from Gregor Roberts. I can feel the ice cold on my left shoulder here. Last week I wrote a piece about the shirt pull in the Liverpool Arsenal game.

50:28It's another one where you watch it in real time and the length of time he's holding his shirt is so minimal and fractional that you see it in real time and you go, oh, maybe something there. In a pre-VR age, it's a footnote in the game's story. But then when you see it from the other angle and you see it slowed down to a quarter of the speed and you see a different reality. You see that he stopped him from ahead in the ball. And there's a big part of me acknowledges that yes, that provided some clarity and he stopped him ahead in the ball. It's a goal scoring opportunity. Probably should have been a penalty.

51:06But it still changed our perception of the incident. You watch the incident in real time and it's not much. So that's a problem for me. I've got to say, chaps, I'm very impressed because I'm sat here listening to you very engaged and thinking, You managed to have a debate around VAR and red cards where I think you're both right. This is genuinely the sign of the top-tier analysis that we have on the Game Football Podcast. Let's move on to talk about Arsenal's 1-0 win against Hull. James, you were there for that one. Another 1-0 win for Arsenal. Another clean sheet. Another goal kind of out of a little moment of a spill from a goalkeeper and in pops Odegaard to get them the win.

51:42It is a relentless charge at the top of the table, isn't it? It's a fairly grinding defence of this title so far. It is also hugely admirable, the way they defend. Do they owe us any entertainment? Were you entertained at this game? Where do you stand on this Arsenal title defence, having sat there at the Emirates? Their defence is outstanding. They've got seven clean sheets now through 10 games. So if they continue picking up clean sheets at that same rate, They're actually on pace to break the record for clean sheets in the Premier League season, which is held by Jose Mourinho's Chelsea team, which I think is 25.

52:21Yeah, not a great performance against Hull. I think there's an interesting thing with Arsenal, which is everyone, there's this question, does Arsenal's attack need to be better? People sort of like say, well, if they want to win the title, their attack's got to be better. They've got to start firing. but actually does it? like does it need to get better because you know they're on last season they were the lowest scoring champions since Leicester at the moment they're going 1.5 goals a game which you'd think is not championship calibre you know but they're on 27 points out of 30 with the kind of honourable exception of Brighton the challengers are all looking pretty flawed and not quite in Arsenal's class they you know they know where their priorities kind of tilt to you know they're they're they're I think they're always going to be a stronger defensive team than a than an attacking team but they're unbelievably good at what they do you know that it's all about it's all about winning matches and picking up points at the end of the day and Arsenal have a methodology that is better and more reliable than anyone else is at the moment.

53:37It's not always very pretty. And I think the Emirates can be a funny place because there were people who were genuinely sort of angered to the point of yelling that Arsenal's kind of attacking inadequacies at this team, which are the defending champions and are top of the league. It was this great yearning for Arsenal to throw off the shackles and take the next step. 2.0 and like they don't need to do that to win the league certainly not this season well especially when the question is the Champions League yeah but especially when we spent the first half of the show and listening talking to James there like bemoaning bad defences Chelsea you know things that are going to catch out Manchester City brilliant attacking crap defence that's going to cost you Manchester United can't defend maybe we should just be flipping it on his head and going these guys are absolutely class at not conceding goals because to James is an interesting point about that Jose Mourinho record.

54:36We talk so much about teams eclipsing other teams. That is a serious record that if they got that, many have said would never be beaten. If they managed to do that, that would be hugely, hugely impressive. And so we need to praise them, don't we? For their sheer brilliance at defending. Yeah, they kind of, you know, conceded three other goals against Brighton as well. That was a one-off, kind of felt like a bit of an aberration of a match. They don't do that often. That was the first time, I can't remember how long, but it was quite a long time. Yeah, as I say, there was a great yearning for it, but I don't think, I think it was a fantasy rather than anything based on reality.

55:13Looked at their recruitment in the summer, everyone expected a big marquee sign in the forward areas, they didn't arrive. So they signed another centre-half, Mesut Kansa, who's been brilliantly, really valuable and brilliant so far. That's how Arsenal will win this league, 1-0. yeah there's kind of an interesting broader point I guess which is that like when Mikel Arteta took over Arsenal they were in a kind of not totally dissimilar position to what Manchester United are in now both in the you know how kind of bad they were as a team but also like in the sense that like they were like they were content like you know everything everything that they did you know they had obviously the whole like Mesut Ozil situation you know Aubameyang being stripped of the captaincy.

56:02And over time, what Mikel Arteta has done, and again, you know, some might say Arteta is like, you know, he's not like the most lovable manager. It's not the most kind of infectiously brilliant, you know, or kind of audacious brand of football. But I think you have to admire the way he's kind of wrested control of the sort of organization and eliminated that sort of chaos gene. they're not always kind of you know not every arsenal game is kind of you know we're sitting here kind of you know sort of like 80 of the way through the podcast rather than you know top item on the podcast discussing them but but you know it's made them a much better and more effective team united i think are a club and a team that sort of pride themselves on their ability to respond to circumstance they go we you know we got you know carrot was on the brink but look how we've stepped up for him, you know.

56:56Arsenal just play kind of the same way, regardless of circumstance, in a very business-like manner. And that is really what the best teams do. Yeah, absolutely. It's also fine. I sort of think there's always this yearning for every team to play this beautiful football. And actually, the interesting thing about football and any sport is that there's layers, there's texture. There's different teams who play different ways. You have Ben Stokes and you have your Joe Root, right? You have your Federer, you have your Djokovic. You don't want necessarily for everyone to play passing beautiful football.

57:29You have to have your bad guys and your grinders. It kind of makes the thing more interesting. Maybe you wouldn't choose Arsenal to be the team that you pay to watch, but the people who pay to watch them are pretty happy because they're winning. And to be honest, they're going to win this league by distance. I don't think it's going to be close. They're going to win it by distance. And we're talking about the Champions League. That could have a real knock-on effect for the Champions League as well because by the time it comes to April, May, if they're 10, 15 points ahead in the Premier League, then they'll be in a PSG situation where they can rest players.

57:55Yeah, very exciting times for Arsenal. I also think we just, sorry, I also just think like we shouldn't like totally mischaracterize. Like they do, like they are not a terrible football team. No, no, not at all. They have some great players. I spoke in the pod a couple of weeks ago about Calafiore. I love watching Martin Odegaard. I think he's a fabulous player to watch. Like they, you know, they have some really great footballers as well. Absolutely. I just wanted to wrap up then by mentioning Brighton and that idea that Tom and Arsenal are going to walk away with it. who are going to finish second.

58:22But just before that, I wanted to give a shout out to my new mate, Tiano Barry. Greg, we did well shouting him out on Thursday's show, didn't he? Before two more goals. Absolutely loved him after that Everton win. Did you see the clip of him where the social content provider is up with him next to... He's got his top off. Tiano, aren't you cold? No, I am cold. And you're like, this guy is absolutely classy. He's pure joy. Delighted for him. Everton, big winners against Coventry. Marco Rosa as well, coming good. 2-1 for Bournemouth against Ipswich. But Brighton, as we say, another screamer from Diego Gomez I actually think this one might be even better than the halfway line goal it's not far off what a hit it's a good strike what a hit but just to finish then Brighton in second at the moment we talked about them a few weeks ago we've had 10 games now this is where I look to Tom Allnott the man of reason and the man of calm down Tom stop getting carried away around these international breaks who can Brighton finish second and if not who will finish second just round the table Gregor I'll start with you can they I mean at the moment it looks like it but I tend to feel that City will probably respond and barring the unknowns they're probably still the second best team in the country James I think Brighton absolutely can use that I have absolutely no caveats on that I just like they and then they will I think that they probably will I think I mean at the moment do they look like the second best team in the league?

59:49Yeah. I think so. Absolutely. Come on then. Why not? Come on. I have some caveats. Come on. I mean, I'm coming round. King caveat. Here he comes. Like in the positive favour of Brighton, I think this is a uniquely open league. Like we haven't seen a league like this for a long, long time. Like where so many of the big clubs are in flux. Like it's weird that it's hard to put your finger on who might finish second. So if there was ever a season to sort of, you know, have an up-and-comer finish in the top two, let's say. This is it. And also, you look at the stats, Brighton are flying high, right, in a lot of them.

1:00:24So they're not just over-performing. The data is behind them as well. But I still think if you look at clubs like I think Liverpool, for example, I think will gain speed as the season goes on. They're kind of getting better and better. I agree with City with all the asterisks. And I still come back to the point that I think Brighton, as the season goes on, you kind of get into that January, March, April swing when they are in Europe and they have to navigate those two things at the same time. I think that is very difficult for any team and particularly a team that's not used to doing that. I remember speaking to someone who talked about that kind of going from a club where you weren't used to it.

1:01:00It's not just the players, it's everybody. It's the analyst, it's the coach, it's the staff, people having to get up at three or four in the morning and they're knackered all the time. Brighton are going to have to do that in the kind of later on in the season. So can they I should have think he's coming round maybe top five he's coming round everybody he's coming round season of chaos and flux but hopefully we made sense of some of it on today's show we'll have to leave it there Gregor Robertson Tom Allnott and James Gearbrand thank you very much for joining me thank you as always for listening we'll be back with an EFL extra show tomorrow and the regular show on Thursday we'll see you then

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