Did the Stretford End save Michael Carrick?

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0:37Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. One young English star in the headlines for the wrong reasons, just 24 hours after the England captain claims the 2026 Ballon d 'Or. On today's show, we'll discuss very different weeks for Max Dowman and Harry Kane, Fleetwood's brilliant League Cup victory, get an update from Manchester as we wonder whether Michael Carrick was saved by the Stretford end and look at the weekend clashes to come. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times Martin Samuel, the Senior Sports Writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is with me as usual.

1:18Now team, we'll be chatting to Paul Hurst in the second half of the show for the latest on all things Michael Carrick and Manchester United but let's get stuck into the midweek action now. Manchester City, Liverpool, Sunderland, Palace and Bournemouth all League Cup winners on Wednesday but the biggest story has to be. One of the biggest stories of the season on the action I would say. Fleetwood Town, an amazing victory over Premier League champions. Arsenal, I'm going to get into Max Downman and Mikel Arteta in just a second but Gregor, 18th in League Two, three wins in 13 all season. I don't think anyone saw this coming but what a performance what a win Brilliant brilliant stuff yeah and I loved Matt Lawler's interview after the game he was very honest about how they kind of leaned into the things they knew would ruffle Arsenal's feathers physicality getting the ball forwards a bit of the conditions but even you know after the Arsenal equalised they showed the kind of spirit to keep going and you know and the quality of the penalties as well absolutely brilliant Conor Hoy's winner in particular was just you know emphatic so brilliant scenes and like competition gets a bit of stick but when you see a team as you say 18th in League 2 beating the champions of England like doesn't happen in many other countries yeah Martin as Gregor said there and you chimed in agreeing with him that was part of what was so impressive because you're watching it and you get to penalties thinking oh no the quality's going to tell now one's going over the bar they were brilliant weren't they absolutely fantastic fantastic and in the interview the the Northern Irish lad gave who scored the winning penalty afterwards and then they've apologized for him swearing and you're thinking, mate, nobody understood the word he said.

3:00No one, no one had a clue that he swore or anything. I still, it was only when I read it in the paper the following day, I read what he was meant to have said and the interviewer sort of trying to get some semblance of control. Whilst there's chaos, there's all around. There's real chaos around. It was just fantastic And like the manager, the manager's got no pedigree in professional football really, apart from, I think he was on Blackpool's books, wasn't he? And then he comes through Manchester United's coaching programme. Age 26 he started as a development coach. Development coach in underprivileged areas.

3:38It was a real sort of niche role as well. and then you know various non-league you know clubs during his career and appointments and I think this is I think this is first time he's got it full time but he's been caretaker he was caretaker twice before every year every year at some point Fleetwood sack their manager every year they turn around to Matt Lawler and go oh could you could you step in and then finally he gets it permanently it's a fantastic story and Arsenal played their team played their team and they were they looked we'll come on to Arsenal in just a second but as Greg has said even at the end they had an attack towards the end where they're piling everyone in and going God love just dropped to someone bang hit it they kept going and as you say Martin yeah a 10 year career at Bamba Bridge is the highlight of Matt Lawler's playing career only 38 Alison I loved the way he consumed the penalty shootout because it's not often that you see a manager watch penalty shootouts in the way that you would watch your team in a penalty shootout hiding behind people, stood on the sideline.

4:43Like, that's what's so great about these stories, isn't it? You see the human side of football. Everyone would have loved the result. But, I mean, I'm absolutely fascinated by the fact that the weather played a part. Does it not rain in training when you're there? Yes, no. It doesn't rain like it does in Fleetwood. Obviously not, but I interviewed Eric Nevland, the head of Viking, playing Villa. And the last time Viking had played a British team, it was Chelsea, and they knocked them out of the UEFA Cup in 2002. and they woke up in the morning, saw that it was going to be bad weather and they were all absolutely delighted.

5:16They felt this was going to be, and it was, it was atrocious weather. And the Fleetwood contingent said exactly the same thing. They woke up and thought, oh, looks okay now, but later on it's forecast to be a bit horrible. So what I mean, it doesn't make any sense to me if you elite players train in all weathers. So what is it about? What is it about a Premier League team playing in wind and rain that equalises it? Go on, you've played. It just adds to the environment and the sense that probably the guys don't want to be there. Fleetwood, Barrow and actually team I played for Grimsby. These coastal clubs, they are on a Tuesday night in winter.

6:02It's tough. Barrow is the worst, I have to say. but Fleetwood's not far behind so like you know the goalkeeper Jay Lynch even joked about it afterwards he's like this is nice this is a nice night for Fleetwood we're used to this like so it was it was kind of just another aspect of the level you know kind of as a leveller but like that's that's detracting from what you know the kind of game plan they set out which wasn't like rocket science as I said it was quite a lot of direct football they highlighted a young player in defence as well for Arsenal who felt they could kind of target a little bit and like bucket loads of desire and they got the result yeah and you mentioned the kind of intensity with which fleet would played that does lead us into the kind of other big talking point and incident from the game the red card for max downman i don't i'm quite upset about this on a lot of levels i'm upset that he got a red card i'm upset with michael arte's reaction i'm upset that the 16 year old bloke felt the need to apologize afterwards but that's my kind of starting point on this i don't know whether you as a former player Gregor are going to tell me come on Tom it's a red card whether you guys having watched the game far longer than I have come on Tom grow up it's a red card it just wound me up so much but I what are our thoughts firstly on the the incident itself and the red card I guess that I'd say like I don't want it to be a red card but I think these days you can see why it's given us red card because he he kind of tried even though he didn't you know get the full full action of trying to kick him kick the he had his leg clamped I know he tried to so you can see why it's given I wouldn't want that to meet the threshold personally but there's a lot of things I want in football that aren't the case so and the tackle was my other kind of tackle you'll see probably a bit more often in league two but you'll see you see them in the premier league the ball's there to be won and you've got an opportunity to leave one on the yeah the opponent like those tackles are becoming rarer in the premier league but they're still there and he needs to be ready to be on the receiving end of some of them.

7:59So it's a big learning experience for him. I kind of agree with you. I didn't like the optics of Arteta. I'll come back to that in a minute. I kind of want to do it instead. Mark, on the red card. I thought he was absolutely Salisbury, mate. Absolutely Salisbury. That's a guy that's got relegated from the Premier League. This is the referee. He's the referee. I just thought you could have refereed that with a little bit of... You're going to say common sense. With a little bit more common sense. Absolutely. and booked the kid and said, look, you can't do that. But you could see what Fleetwood, Fleetwood were trying to be very, very physical.

8:31He's a 16-year-old kid. They were trying to be very, very physical with him. And we can get on a sort of high moral ground and say, oh, yes, but you shouldn't do that. You will know we shouldn't do that. He's a 16-year-old kid. You could have refereed it with a little bit more confidence. Totally agree with that, but still. Definitely. You can come back. You can back up to the decision. I just want to bring Ali in. You've got refereeing qualifications, Alison. and thoughts on the points to make so far. Yeah, and referees are tough on retaliation. I mean, it's just a thing. They don't like it. I think you could really go into court and make a case it wasn't even retaliation.

9:05It was... Get off me leg. It was, uh, it was, uh, and that's not retaliation. That's what the hell are you doing? You could really hurt me. Yeah, it's just... There was no violence involved. No. There was no danger to the player. So if I'd been refereeing it, I would have maybe had a word, but I wouldn't even have booked him. Yeah, it was the scenario as well. It was another one of those, we've all, you've played it, Gregor, we've all watched it. You're watching that incident unfold and Ben White's on the floor and the ball and you're going, someone's going to fly in. Someone is going to boot someone in some way or another.

9:36Someone's either going to boot the person who's blocking the ball, someone, and the Fleetwood player saw an opportunity and cleaned him out. And you go, all right, fair enough. And Max Downwind's gone, yeah. And you're kind of, I was like, go on, Max. And then I was like, he sent him off. Send him off You've got to have a referee in that scenario You're supposed to read the game and interpret the game And go just come here both of you for God's sake Yellow card each should crack on for God's sake They never do that anymore do they? People say rules are rules and all of it But actually it's not like that Refereeing is not like that in terms of rules and rules The offside line is rules and rules But a lot of A lot of But a lot of that sort of stuff Is as you say refereeing with a feel for the game.

10:21Yeah. You know, I can totally understand that. We were talking the other week, you and I, Tom, and the Lincoln City game against West Ham. You've done well not to bring this up until now. No, no, no. But I'm bringing it up in a sympathetic way. When the guy gets sent off two minutes and 42 seconds in, I don't know a single West Ham fan that didn't go, oh, that's a shame. Because you don't, you know, you don't want to go up there and sort of, you wanted to see the game. You were quite excited by the game. You know, you're thinking, oh, Lincoln City. That was a bad tackle, though, at least. It was a bad tackle and you could understand it.

10:57But even that, you're looking at it and thinking, yeah, I know it probably is a red card, but it's a shame. It's fascinating. You like to see the game, kept as the game. It's quite interesting and reassuring for me because I got quite worked up about it, watching the game and then made the mistake of posting something on social media, which is always a silly idea. but the amount of people who are talking to your point, Alison, about retaliation, it's a red card. It's a red card flat. And it is such a shame to me that we don't see more in this age of VAR and to your point, Martin, about rules and rules and rules and rules, a bit more refereeing with the feel of the game.

11:32Because, you know, I go and watch a lot of championship games now and in League One and have these arguments with my dad in the stands. I actually don't mind it if a referee is, his vibe is, I'm going to give everything, don't pull shirts. or the guy who goes, get up, because it's like, it's a personality. I'm going to, this is my vibe. I'm going to do this. I saw Klattenberg, who I always thought actually was a better referee in Europe than I appreciated him more when he refereed European matches than when he refereed Premier League matches. I can remember seeing Klattenberg referee, I think it was Bayern Munich and Atletico Madrid, and it was like a combination of 22 of the biggest dodge parts you've ever seen in your life.

12:17And Klattenberg just going around the pitch at the old Madrid Stadium, it was at the old place, and just going around and saying, get up. And that's all you ever saw, get up. Yeah. Whilst people were rolling around on the floor and claiming it would have been pole-axed and stuff. And it was just brilliant refereeing because there wasn't actually a bad tackle in the game, not really. Yeah. And he refereed it like that. Yeah, yeah. And no one was really hurt, not really, any referee did that. That's the other funny thing. I don't think Fleet would have complained if he'd got a yellow card. They jumped up and made it a bit of a scuffle, didn't they?

12:51But they weren't rolling around going, oh, my God, he's kicked me. Anyway, I'm ranting and raving. Gregor, I've interrupted you twice. I'm just thinking when the guys are talking about having a feel for the game. I've been to a few of the seminars, the player-to-referee course. I've referenced this on the podcast a few times. And that's what they're teaching. Yeah. That's the irony. For the game. Yeah, and they're talking about you don't referee the game the same way in the first five minutes as you do in the last five minutes. And that's kind of, so that's part of the thing that's the shame, as you say, that you could have, it's near the end of the game, it wasn't having any real material impact on the outcome.

13:25Like, you could have refereed that with a bit more feel and that's what referees are being taught. So maybe it was Salisbury. And then your thoughts on, all of our thoughts on Mikel Arteta, because I was stunned by this as well. Absolutely stunned. Even a player, even if he had cleaned him out, you normally get the little pat on the back of the head, don't you? And down the tunnel and, you know, let's forget about that one. Whatever he says, Mikel Arteta is surely clever enough to know the camera is going to be on him in that moment. And even if he's going, go and make me a cup of tea, it didn't look like nice to the 16-year-old player.

14:00Get to the dressing room, Max, isn't it? Yeah, get to the dressing room. Get to the dressing room. But like, it probably didn't sound as bad as it looked. But that optics-wise, thoughts? Although even afterwards, when the question was put to him, he was kind of a bit, he was trying to shut it down. But he was also said something about, I think he said something about emotion and he also said something about the context of the game and how they prepared for that. So clearly he said, Max, you're a boy wonder. They're probably going to leave one on you. Keep your cool. And he's, in that moment, he's, you know, So, facing penalties, he's upset that he didn't.

14:33Do you not think as well, as I understand it, on Friday at Arsenal, didn't Arteta call an end to a series of questions about Downman? Everyone got it into their head, you know, the way it can happen at press conferences where people have a chat beforehand. They sort of, oh, right, this could be a good line. So, Saka is out injured. everyone's trying to push Downman I think I said it on the show last week when someone said about Downman it's going to be Medarecki yeah yeah yeah it's going to be Medarecki and I still believe that he was asked repeatedly about Max Downman and in the end sort of called a halt to that part right enough he said something like enough already right but he called an end to it quite abruptly and slightly irritated as I understand it and I just wonder if there wasn't a little bit of that in there as well.

15:31A little bit of everyone telling me to pick this kid. We've got sent off. We're in trouble. You know, why don't everyone just let me do my job? But you would like the manager to see for himself that that was not the kid's fault. No, no. And actually give him a bit of a hug as he left the pitch. I couldn't agree more. That's a travesty, mate. I couldn't agree more. I think there was a separate agenda that isn't immediately visible to everybody that could have been Arteta's thinking project. He had the hump that he was getting battered to put Max Downman in against Everton. He's played him against Fleetwood, which he probably always was going to play against Fleetwood.

16:15It hasn't worked out. And it's almost like that was, I don't know. It just seemed to me as if it was about more than what had just happened in front of him because I can't see how he would be so angry about that. So I'm just thinking, well, what else was it? He was also sent off for England on the 19s earlier. Yes, he was. So maybe there is, who we're speculating, but maybe there's a bit of a flick of us. But that was for a straightforward tackle. It wasn't for petulance or anything. No, no. It would be hard to conclude that he's got it in his character. And he's getting kicks up in the old side of the kid, to be fair.

16:49So in that match and in other matches before, there was a game against, was it Spain that he got sent off? Or was there, there's another match, I think it's against Spain, and he gets kicked from pillar to post. Yeah, yeah. Just a final thought before we move on, because plenty more to discuss. I want to get into Harry Kane and a few mention of the other games as well. But just Gregor, as a former player, and with a theme we've talked about before, I also found the kind of reaction to a lot of people saying, oh, it's a man's game, welcome to the game and stuff. He's 16. No, yeah, no. You know, on any level of this, my thing was like the referee grab him and go, God's sake, calm down.

17:22Yellow card. His manager pat him on the back. The idea he's got to apologise. He's 16. Am I? I don't know why I'm being soft now because I've got a kid or something. Absolutely spot on. This is, this is, there are an increasing number of players coming through in their teenage years. And 16 is particularly young. You're still a child 16. You know, you are. You are a child. You're still developing. You're still growing physically and emotionally. and learning a lot. And I think to hand over your children to a club, you do that with conversations about where they say, you know, we will look after him.

17:59We understand how old he is. We understand what the spotlight does to people. We understand the pressures. We understand the physicality of what he's going into. You make a promise. It's a pact. You make a pact that you will acknowledge their age and where they are in their life cycle as a player. and I think Arsenal broke that bond of trust in this instance, to be quite honest. Well, they have appealed as well, so it'll be interesting to see what happens with that one. But congratulations to Fleetwood Town. An amazing, amazing victory, as hope their cup run can continue. Speaking of penalty shootouts, we should mention Liverpool's win against Chelsea.

18:34Just two quick things to mention. Alison, Joe Gomez scored a penalty. I know, I was very happy. I think everyone's very happy for Joe Gomez, aren't they, that he managed to step up and score. But does it count? This is the philosophical debate. I think it counts. Does a penalty shoot that goal count? I don't think it does. Because if it counted, the roar would have been a lot louder. It's a good finish, but sorry, Joe, it doesn't count. I would have thought you've scored a load of pens in penalty shootouts. You'd have had much better stats if you'd... Still, that's more than... Yeah, it would have bumped me up to six goals instead of four or something like that.

19:03Brilliant for Joe Gomez. Just, Martin, your thoughts on Xabi Alonso's comments. This is the least important competition for us. The Premier League is the main focus. Completely true, but also not nice to hear. Well, but it's true, isn't it? I mean, we all know that. We all know that in the pecking order for all of these clubs, the Cowbell Cup is number four if you're in four competitions and number three if you're in three. So, you know, it gets them, if they win it, it gets them a place in the conference league, doesn't it? Yeah. So, you know, yeah, I'm not bothered by that. That sounds like the truth to me.

19:40Fair enough. Jude Bellingham and All England fans absolutely heartbroken to see Valentin Barco being the man to miss the penalty for Chelsea in that one. Wink, wink. Even got a grin out of the Scottish fan for that one. Erling Haaland's outfit at full time in the Man City game. Have you seen this? Absolutely fantastic. Just rambling around the pitch. Saw someone on social media say he looks like one of the characters out of Home Alone. Do go and check it out if you haven't seen it. Already an important win for Sunderland as well. But let's talk about the other big moment of the midweek. Monday night Monday night goodness me what a horrible drawn out boring evening it was on the editing desk that one but not helped by Thierry Henry's inane questioning which I'm sure he had been made to do but anyway get on with it Thierry Harry Kane crowned Ballon d 'Or winner Alison we're absolutely chuffed aren't we we said how much we wanted it to happen delighted for it this is the next best thing to England winning the World Cup I think in terms of uniting the nation I honestly I listened to a lot of the box popping and the phone-ins and read a lot about it and it was making their headlines on all the news bulletins.

20:44There wasn't a single, not a single dissenting voice. Nobody suggested because he hadn't won the World Cup that he didn't deserve it. Nobody did the, on the other hand, should Harry Kane have won it. Everyone was delighted that he's a player that epitomizes what the, I don't actually agree with the Ballon d 'Or, I think it's a ridiculous concept, but if you extrapolate what it's trying to do, it's supposed to be rewarding success and demeanour as well and and nobody in world football is as humble and selfless and all-round good guy and down to earth and as harry kane and also you know it i don't also believe that footballers should be role models but if you think they are then he's a perfect one isn't he because he worked really hard at his craft yeah absolutely And he's a devoted family man, recognises what his parents have done, recognises all the people on his journey, fantastically self-discipline.

21:42Mustn't it be marvellous to play on a team with Harry Kane? Yeah, yeah. It was really nice seeing all his Bayern Munich teammates kind of not just jump up out of the platitude nature of these awards ceremonies, but be actually buzzing for him as well. Martin, continuing that theme Alison's mentioned, the universal appeal of Harry Kane was the subject of your column this week. Just tell us a bit more about what it is and all the people within your life, indeed, who just love Harry Kane. Well, no, yeah, it is. Because he's got that sort of, I compared him to Stanley Matthews, who was the first winner of it.

22:16It is as if he is a footballer from a bygone age as such. You know, there is something very old-fashioned about Harry Kane. and one of the things one of the things i mentioned there my dad my dad's 87 he loves harry kane thinks he is absolutely thinks he's the best england player he's ever seen um and you know when you're 87 you see him and you look at you look at harry kane and he speaks to that generation he speaks to that generation of people who were very much about just getting on with it and that was uh something else i mentioned in the column the anecdote about his father and his dad just saying to him, we got rejected by Arsenal.

22:59He's only eight years old, but saying, don't worry, we'll get on with it. We'll try harder. It'll be all right. And he did it again when he was at Leicester. He couldn't get in the team at Leicester. And he was thinking, if I can't get in the team at Leicester, how am I ever going to get in the team at Tottenham? Everything that I'm working for here is not happening. And it was his dad who kept him at Leicester and who again said look just get on with it just just get stuff done and it will be all right well that phrase he shared on social media not long after winning work hard in silence let success be your noise I mean sums him up doesn't it as a person as an and as a footballer Gregor final thoughts yeah well it's quite the journey as well isn't it I mean that's what makes it so remarkable it's not and like even in Johnny's pieces there's a would agree with he's not and it sounds I don't know he's not as naturally gifted as the people who were alongside his favourites and he admitted as much basically I worked I worked really hard to become the best there is and you know from Orient Millwall Norwich Leicester that's before you get in the Spurs team then you got to you know he wasn't a teenager when he was getting in the Spurs team even and to keep improving and I often think as well like now I don't want to say anything like negative of or like what might have been but if he'd gone to a club of Bayern stature where you're playing with players who are you know as good or almost as good as you you might have seen this rise a little bit sooner and he might even go because he played better with better players that's a like universally known fact and I often just think as well any players professional footballers who you know think they were professional you look they'll look everyone will look at Harry Kane and think, you know, I think we could have, perhaps you'd have done a little bit more because he just eked out every single bit of his talent that was possible.

24:52And still is as well. He's also, he's also the first English winner of a truly open Ballon d 'Or because people don't realise, I don't think, the actual history of the Ballon d 'Or that initially you could only win it if you were European. Yeah. So Pelé doesn't win the Ballon d 'Or. Yeah. Gwincia doesn't win the Ballon d 'Or. So that doesn't change until 1995. Yeah. You can only win the Ballon d 'Or if you're European until 1995. And then from 1995 for, I think, the next 12 years, you can only win it if you play for a European club. Right, right. So any South American player that stayed in South America, so early Carlos Tevez and all of that sort of stuff, they weren't eligible for it.

25:38So he's the first English winner of a truly open Ballon d 'Or. So even Michael Owen, even in Michael Owen's era, a South American player in South America couldn't win the Ballon d 'Or. Really interesting stuff. I will just say how much I want Ronaldo R9 to host every award ceremony ever. His delivery for Harry Kane's win was just so joyous, so happy. And again, he's just clapping away. Absolutely wonderful stuff. Get him on Strictly Come Dancing for the next series. Please make it happen. Martin, your point there about previous winners leads us on to the quiz question at the break, which is Kane's Ballon d 'Or win takes England's tally for different winners to five, tied second for different players to have won for your nation with Germany and Italy.

26:21But which nation has the most different winners with six? Find out after the break.

26:35People are disappearing again, just like before. Nocturne Streaming on Apple TV on the 30th of October Lee F. Schreiber Walter has a way of getting to people and when he does, they don't come back Stephen Graham The world is full of dark places Zassi Beetz How's he getting messages out? He's locked under six feet of concrete She's still alive I'm a fighter Nocturne Streaming on Apple TV on the 30th of October Subscription required

27:13Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Alison Rudd, Martin Samuel and Gregor Robertson with me in the studio. Just before we go to Manchester to hear from Paul Hurst, the answer to the quiz question, the nation with the most different winners of the Ballon d 'Or, Alison Rudd? France. France. Shocking, really, for the people who organised the award. Six different winners. Quick stab at naming as many as you can. Platini. Platini. It's my only one. The bloke with the bald head, he was really good. Guzman Dembele. Zidane. Benzema. Benzema.

27:48Four. Platini era. Platini era. The other one. Tugana. No. Forward striker. Played with Tony Cascarino, didn't he? I think. J. Papin. Papin. Papin. Right. And the sixth one I've never heard of. Raymond Copper. Yeah, Raymond Copper. Big Ray. Big Ray Copper. Big Ray, there you go. Now let's go to Manchester and get the latest on Manchester United and Michael Carrick. We're joined now by Paul Hurst, our correspondent. So Michael Carrick, Paul Hurst, on Monday's show we were discussing at length his replacements, but by Thursday he's still there. Just sum up for us the last couple of days, and I mean I'm kind of slightly obsessed by the idea that he's been saved by the Stretford End, but has he actually been saved by the fact that Ineos don't have a good idea about what to do instead?

28:38It's a bit of both, really, isn't it? I think sharing competence and being sort of like uber aware of PR. A friend of mine texted me on Sunday night saying, surely the reception that Carrick got when he left the field will buy him a few more games. And I was just thinking, have you not seen what's just happened? Have you not seen the 90 minutes that came before that? Have you not seen the Como game as well? but lo and behold here we are a week on more or less and he's still got a job and it probably is a factor Man United are PR conscious that's high on their list of priorities at the moment and there's other factors as well they haven't probably they've got to pay money for Eddie Howe which we know they don't like paying money for anything if anything they're like sacking receptionists to get a bit of extra money in the the till.

29:36So yeah, it's, it's, it's a real mess at the moment. And I do feel sorry for Carrick to a certain extent because, you know, it's almost like we're going to speak to her at the press conference this afternoon. And it's just like, you know, you're being dragged out in front of the media again, even though people know that you probably are a dead man walking. And it's just a real kind of sorry state of affairs. You meant, go on, is there anything you can do, Paul? Is there anything you can do to turn this around from, from there? or do you think that they are right now canvassing other candidates, negotiating with agents, and even if it picks up a little bit, it's irretrievable for him?

30:17There is a chance. I'd say he's got a 10 % chance of saving his job. I think if they do, for example, if they win the next three matches or certainly don't lose any of the next three matches, which is not easy when you've got Chelsea away, Roma at home in the Champions League and then Aston Villa at home. It's not going to be easy, but I did speak to someone yesterday and they were saying, the club knows what he's on about, he's involved in the decisions, and he said, we are giving him a chance. This is genuine. But I also think what they won't admit to us publicly, and they wouldn't do that because it would be suicide really, that this gives them another week to look at other people, to sound out potential successes, to do the sums, to work out how much compensation you need to pay for any hell or how much Nagelsmann wants a job or those kind of things.

31:13It gives them a bit more breathing room because if you look at it, there is no real potential interim. If anything, Carrick is the interim at the moment. Darren Fletcher did it last time, probably doesn't want to do it again. And then a lot of the coaches that Carrick has got now came up from, you know, you can't really keep those on or put like Johnny Evans in charge, can you? Because, you know, it's the same regime, isn't it? So then who do you look to? Do you look to like Wayne Rooney to bring him in for a few games? Do you look at Ryan Giggs? You know, so he just, that's the kind of state of affairs they're left with at the moment.

31:51So, yeah, it ends to your question, Mike. I do think he does have a chance, but they just can't keep playing like they have been the last two matches in particular because that was, they'd been absolutely dreadful. And by the same token, Paul, is there anything that they can do that would actually cause Michael Carrick, do you think, to just turn around and go, no, I've had enough. This is, you know, if suddenly it came out that they are talking to Eddie Howe, if it suddenly, you know, someone's photographed, Omar Brada is photographed, you know, somewhere with a nablesman or whatever, is there anything that they can do that Cowick might just go no you have this you can have this or is he such a company man such a company loyalist that he'll put up with it indefinitely yeah I think he's he's a diplomat isn't he he's very much a a club man so I don't think he'd he'd rock the boat there's probably also five or six million reasons why he wouldn't walk out But, you know, when do not many managers resign these days?

32:56Because obviously it affects the compensation. But, yeah, I think, you know, inside he will be hurting because of the comments that Bruno Fernandes made the other week and of what's going on at the club. The lack of desire and confidence from the players.

33:16They're at the lowest step at the moment for me in the time I've been covering them, and that was since the Moyes days. So, you know, they really are at a low. But, you know, Carrick's, he won't quit, he won't walk out on them. And I think the owners will, even if they are talking to people in the background, they'll probably stomach it for a few days and then, you know, see what happens in the international break. Hirstie, have you had any word about the candidates that are in the frame, that there is some reluctance that there hasn't been in the past to join such a dysfunctional organisation?

33:49Because at some point, there has to be a tipping point where you've got your ego. Oh, I can go to Man United. I can be the man to do the job. But at some point, they're going to have to start thinking this is not the right time to join this organisation. Yeah, I suppose you can look at one or two ways. Obviously, you can go there and if you do flop, you can say, well, look at the guys before me. We had Champions League winning managers and they couldn't do it. or you could go there and question whether it would actually have a, it could have a serious impact on your, not necessarily your reputation, because you look at Hammerin, he's doing quite well at AC Milan from what we've, you know, so far.

34:32But in terms of your own kind of self-confidence and belief, he could take a bit of a hammering, couldn't make you look at Eric Ten Hag now, he's nowhere, is he? Was he director of football at 20? You know, that's his career's gone, isn't it? You know, he's not going to manage at the top level again. And I guess it depends on how confident you are in your own abilities and what kind of stage you're at in your career. If you're a young gun and you go to Madrid United and it doesn't work out, you can probably resurrect your career elsewhere. Get the experience of working for a big club and quite a dysfunctional one as well.

35:04Firstly, just before we let you go, I wanted to ask about Bruno Fernandes. Obviously, such a big part of this story in the last week or so with the Como game and then being dropped for Bournemouth that you were at both of those games. As we understand it, there's been some kind of clear-the-air talks, as they're always termed in the last couple of days. We'll obviously find out much more when you go to this press conference, and listeners can read about that on the Times website. But what's your understanding of that situation now? Do you think, you know, if Michael Carrick is going to do a remarkable turnaround and start with at least a point against Chelsea on Saturday, he probably needs Bruno Fernandes, doesn't he?

35:39He does. He needs the best version of Bruno Fernandes. He doesn't need Bruno Fernandes that was sulking around the pitch in Como as he went and sneering at the bench. He can't have that kind of version of Bruno Fernandes. And there's no doubt, is there, that when Bruno Fernandes is on his game, that he can win matches single-handedly for Man Utd. He's by far the best player. And they really lacked that kind of dynamism in midfield when he wasn't in the team for the Bournemouth game. but it's a very delicate situation. There's all sorts going on with Fernandes. He wants a new contract and the club are reluctant to give it to him really because he's 32.

36:19They've got an option on his contract for him to stay for another year. They'll probably just exercise that or maybe sell him in the summer. It's a difficult one for Carrick because he's undermined his authority in quite a major way but he needs him in the team So they claim that these clear-the-air talks, as you said, have done exactly that, that they've drawn a line under it. But we'll see, won't we, on Saturday? I mean, if they're 2-0 down in half an hour, he'll probably get the bottom lip out and just walk around until they get substituted, won't he? But if he's up for it, and he will have a certain element of pride and self-respect.

36:59He's a professional footballer. He's won a lot. so he's kind of he will be hurting inside himself people have questioned him and so he'll be you know if he is in the right frame of mind he'll probably want to give some back and you know prove that he is he is committed Just a final quick question before we let you go Hurst and get prepped for that press conference it's one of my pesky prediction ones that I'm going to ask the guys in the studio as well so you can kick us off upcoming international break in a couple of weeks time will Michael Carrick still be the Manchester United manager yes or no?

37:27No I don't think so I could tell by your face where that was going before you even answered it. But we'll let you go. Paul Hurst, thank you very much for joining us on the Game Podcast. You can read Hurstie's analysis from another Michael Carrick press conference on the Times website later on. It's a funny club, though. A funny club. A funny club. Because it's an absolute dog's dinner of a football club, and everyone says it. You can use every euphemism you want, dog's dinner, basket case of a club, and yet everyone wants a new contract. It's strange, isn't it? I mean, Lissandro Martinez comes out, Slaughter's the club and everyone goes oh why did he do that?

38:03Oh because he wants a new contract Bruno Fernandes comes out slaughters the manager everyone's oh why did he do that? Hersey there well Bruno's angling for a new contract and you're thinking this place it's like it's like a black hole it's sucking everything into it and yet everyone wants to everyone wants to stay with another two years you know three years. No one with the exception of Saudi Arabia will pay them the same money because they're not good enough yeah Man United what a strange club yeah absolutely what a strange club they're overpaying players that no one else would pay that money for and that's a bit simplistic Bruno Fernandes we said earlier this season I was like I've often been so critical there was the option the moment last year as well when it was like should you sell him because that offer did come in and I was like I think yes because he's the captain and he's the representative of the team and he is so kind of petulant.

38:59He's always throwing his arms up. And yes, but at the same time, he's a brilliant, brilliant footballer. And then earlier this season, I kind of reassessing it. This is the thing with Man United. They just make you go, even you go around in circles. I was like, actually, if you put Bruno in some of the best Man United teams, he's up to it. He's like, he would have thrived. He would have flourished. Like perhaps that would have been even more true like 15 years ago when pressing wasn't so important because a lot of the running he does, it looks like it's for sure a lot of the time rather than kind of really like part of the team ethos.

39:35But anyway, he's a brilliant, brilliant footballer. So it's kind of like, both things can be true. He's sunk into the vortex, but there's also players who, in a better team, in a more functional team, they would have looked 10 times the player. The only thing I would say with that is pressing was always important with United. I know it's not as important as now where everyone is absolutely obsessed with pressing, but, you know, Paul Merson, George Graham used to give Paul Merson videos of Ryan Giggs and the work that he did. Not how he beat people or anything like that, because everyone knew that Mers could do that.

40:10He used to give him videos and say, look at him tracking back, look at him closing down, look at him doing this, look at him doing that. That's what you've got to do. Yeah, yeah. So the idea that the previous Manchester United teams, you could have got away with not working quite as hard as you do at the moment. I'm not sure you could. Yeah, potentially. Alison? Just imagine, to put all this into context, just imagine if Man United had unveiled a new manager today. They almost couldn't have done it. Because you need to know that everyone's had enough. And unfortunately, what people have had enough of is the way Man United have run, not the way it's managed.

40:53It all makes sense now. They want Carrick to fail badly in the next three games. Because then people will realise, oh, well, we're being a bit emotional, really. We're being a bit sentimental. and you need to appoint somebody new with a wave of goodwill and oh, new dawn. That's certainly been the reaction of some of the Manchester United fan base that I've seen after this. You know, why have we, you know, on the pitch is not good enough. But Alison, you're prone to a bit of emotion and sentimentality every now and again. Surely you, a little bit like me, are kind of hoping that Michael Carrick like turns this around, sells Bruno Fernandes in January and they're like third in March.

41:32Wouldn't that be class? That would be amazing. But that's the point. it would be I've seen I like Paul I've seen no evidence of him being able to do that I'm a solo dreamer again United do hope that too because it will save them a fortune yeah like again like it's true I mean although we're not we don't feel like the fans are not at that end point I don't think I actually disagree I don't think three more defeats like we've seen in the last two will change their perception of Michael Carrack and whether he should be in a job or continue blaming the same people will still think it's not Michael Carrick's fault.

42:08They'll still love Michael Carrick and sing his name. But you can do that while also accepting that probably if they want to stay in the division, they're going to have to change the boss. I mean, they're in a relegation fight at the moment. Do you think so? Oh, mate, they're in a relegation fight. They are now on less than a point a game. If you go through the season and you get less than 38 points, you're in a relegation fight. What they had before the weekend when they got beat 3-0, They were on a pointer game. A pointer game wouldn't have kept you up last season. West Ham went down with 39.

42:42Well, they got Chelsea away, then Roma in the Champions League, and then Aston Villa. Do you think so? Good time. Well, because Gerald Pedro is not in the team, and that appears to have unsettled them completely. So it's a good time to play Chelsea. We're back in... So you think you might get a Manchester United response? I mean, I hope I do. Amazing. I'm obsessed with the idea he's saved by the Stretford End. it's incredible but I'm dreaming am I? That's why I have not just enormous sympathy for Carrick I mean he came out at a five minute monologue yeah like he did he did he put everything out there like you hear all the former players that turned pundits now saying if I'm Michael Carrick I come out fighting and like oh I wouldn't say it was fighting talk but for Michael Carrick that was fighting and that is what he was given by the players so like the chances of him actually eliciting some kind of response from this group of footballers now feels like so slim to be here.

43:37But for a bit of a call as well, because there is an entire... Look, we're on a podcast. I realise the irony of this statement. But there is a cottage industry, isn't there, in having played for Manchester United, commenting about Manchester United. So it's not even just the normal attention that Manchester United would get. is an utterly abnormal attention on a failing football club at the moment because there must be half a dozen podcasts. And that's just ex-players. That's just household names talking about Manchester United. Yeah. And that's before you get to every other, you know, I don't know if it's an MUT, fan TV or whatever like Arsenal, but I guarantee there is.

44:24And I guarantee there's about 40 of them as well. Yeah. And so it's never-ending. You can't get away from it. If you're Carrick and you're trying to clear your mind, you're trying to get some sort of space, where do you go? Well, we'll see what he could possibly say in his press conference today. Maybe he'll clear up some of those clear-the-air talks with Bruno Fernandes. By the time you're listening to this, you can read Paul Hurst's Dispatch on the Times website. Manchester United against Chelsea, not the only exciting game this weekend. Liverpool showing some good form, heading into hosting Arsenal on Sunday.

44:56That could be tasty, couldn't it? Liverpool have started to build a bit of momentum there's no doubt about that Big players are starting to deliver a little bit he's at scoring goals Barclay looks like he's smiling and contributing and Vert's I don't know I'm not sure he's ever going to hit the heights that you would expect of a player that was signed for over 100 million but he's starting to contribute as well and look a bit more like Iriola is going to get the best of him so Liverpool have got the wind in their sails I think and Arsenal arrive after a bit of a disappointment It'll be a fascinating game on Sunday the one I'm looking forward to Tottenham against Palace Tottenham going for a third victory that might just drag them up into the top half of the table I know some listeners who are Tottenham fans very excited about the prospect of nine points on the spin maybe Tottenham season off and running we will leave it there for now though Gregor Robertson Martin Samuel and Alison Rudd thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening we'll be back on Monday We'll see you then.

46:27I'm a fighter.