Arsenal and Brighton show title credentials. Plus who is getting sacked first?

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1:06Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. On today's show, Arsenal end their 14-year wait for a win at Anfield, Brighton inflict a first home defeat on Enzo Mureska as Manchester City manager, and Michael Carrick's Manchester United woes deepen after defeat by Chelsea. But he's not the only Premier League manager feeling the heat after losses for Nottingham Forest, Crystal Palace and Sunderland. I'm Gregor Robertson and joining me in the studio to discuss all of that and more we have the Times senior sports writer Alison Rudd the Times London football reporter Pete Rutzler and the former Chelsea and Marseille striker and Times columnist Tony Cascarino Guys, good to have you all It's good to be, Greg 1-0 to the Arsenal Again Since Mikel Arteta took charge in 2019 he's overseen 33 league victories by that very scoreline the most of any side he was made to work for it though Alison yeah I don't I mean I don't know what match was like for a neutral I suspect it was fun but if you the first half was great fun wasn't it the first half was end to end stuff Liverpool's response to going behind was brilliant and some controversies which we shall come to but really the thing that you know that won Arsenal the game was another defensive masterclass first of all you've got the bits built on Raya who is He didn't have to do much, but the fact he exists, I think, gives their back line so much confidence.

2:35There is an aura hanging over the Arsenal defence, which stems from him, I think. I think he was their player of the season last year and he's continued in the same form now. He's not tall, but he manages to be commanding. There's something very surreal about the way he operates as a goalkeeper. Konso, I thought, was immense. Just being in the right place at the right time by a nanosecond. Just that timing of reading the danger was phenomenal. It's not easy to make that transition either, is it? To move from, yes, it's Aston Villa, it's a big club, but going into Arsenal, given their reputation, given who he's replacing, you know, William Saliba dropping out of the team and then just seeming so adept.

3:13I know he had, I think, a slight wobble in the first half with one thing, but he seemed really seamless. Yeah, yeah. Astonishing, astonishing. And that was the setup from the start. And then, so Arsenal score because of a defensive, The sort of defensive error you didn't think Arsenal were going to make in the game. That's the difference, I think. It was two top teams, but Alisson in goal for Liverpool plays a sloppy pass out and Arsenal regroup and score from that. I never once got the impression that Liverpool were going to make that, get an equaliser through a similar route, through an error of judgment from Rea or a defender passing the ball out short.

3:52I mean, there was the occasional short pass, but nothing as gargantuan as that. And so as you're watching it, you're sort of thinking, oh, this could go on for 14 hours now. And I just don't think it's going to happen. There wasn't actually a shot on target of Liverpool. No. Although Liverpool, they did rattle Arsenal in the first half. They did respond brilliantly to going behind, didn't they, Tony? Yeah, it was 25 minutes where Liverpool showed exactly what they can be capable of. Cross after cross after the box. Crosses, direct quick play, and it unsettled Arsenal. But as Al was alluded to, I mean, I don't think I've ever seen a better back line.

4:34I mean, and Arsenal have had some good ones, by the way. You know, you go back to O 'Leary, Adams, Keown, Sol Campbell, and you look at the boys there now and you've got no Saliba. And that back line of Timber, Calafari, you know, Konza. and you're adding Gabriel. It's just, it's so good. And that is the starting place for them. And Liverpool did cause them problems. But again, you know, as Al said, no shots. There's no real great efforts. And you could say McAllister's effort with his header was a great chance. Didn't make the most of it. But they are so comfortable at keeping games really tight.

5:13And when you give something, and I'm, you know, as great as goalkeeper as Alisson is, he's capable of gifting something with his passing out from the back because it was sloppy at best. They paid the ultimate price because breaking down this Arsenal team is... And me and you have had this conversation before, Gregor. We've always had that discussion where we say, when we do training sessions and we have attackers against defenders, who wins? Defenders, eight out of ten times win. And so many times, and I always remind myself of that when I'm watching games is, yeah, Liverpool's attack can be really exciting and really good and direct and fast.

5:50But the defence wins the battle. And that was yesterday. But why? The question is, surely, why were there no shots on target? I think it's because if part of your philosophy, as Liverpool's is now under Irola, is to create chaos, you get the wrong people in position to shoot. So Kürke's had a really good chance. And it was kind of a surprise to Arsenal that he was there in the centre-forward position, but he's not a centre-forward, so he doesn't score. It's like the chaos backfires slightly because you've not got the people you want shooting when those situations arise. Yeah, which is the sort of thing that happens at City when they cause chaos.

6:33It normally will fall to Haaland. And obviously they get rewarded because he converts a lot, which is that yesterday wasn't that type of player for Liverpool. It's interesting with Arsenal because more than any other team, they seem so comfortable sitting deep. Like, particularly in that second half, like, they're not just sitting there, it's really quite low on the edge of their penalty area. You mentioned Raya, like, there's a real leadership aspect to the way he plays in goal. You see him every time they have a forward set piece, he's over talking to Arteta, communication comes straight back through to the team.

7:03They are so set in those positions. And you wouldn't say, the debate and discussions we've had about Arsenal so far this season, you wouldn't have said that they're playing exceptionally well. You wouldn't say that they're playing, I think we always want them to do more. But if this is the baseline, no one's really going to touch that, are they? Get closer. 24 points now from nine games, which is more than last season. I think they got it 23, 24, similar. But this is a really impressive start. And that's just the foundation, isn't it? The interesting part for me and all this is that obviously you see performances during the season.

7:40You watch a video or you'll get all the data and they will have looked at Brighton. I'm sure Liverpool would have looked at Brighton, how they played and how they went about it to hurt Arsenal. But that can be misleading in itself because Brighton were phenomenal on the day and they just punished Arsenal. And also made Arsenal look really average defensively, which they're not. So that performance was a bit misleading. They were shots from outside the box, weren't they? I mean, that's a completely different way of playing football. But they caused chaos against Arsenal. And like you said, the chaos, but it was from outside the box.

8:16And Brighton were sensational in that game. I don't know if you... You know when Manchester United went to Arsenal and won with Kunja scoring that goal and Dorku getting him two great goals that won them the game last season? That's the sort of thing that Brighton did to Arsenal. but that's really rare because you're going to have to get a couple of wonder goals which is really rare in football Well, some big moments to get into but first of all, Ian Whittle was at Anfield and he sent us this voice note So I'm speaking at the end of Liverpool 0 Arsenal 1 at Anfield and that noise in the background apart from the obligatory music is the sound of Arsenal fans celebrating and to be fair, the reaction from them and their players on the final whistle showed you just how much this win meant to them it might be early in the season It is early in the season.

9:02There's still a little matter of Manchester City's fate to be decided. But I have to say, this looked like a very clinical, vintage Arsenal performance. Champions in waiting, you can't be saying that when November's barely clicked over on the calendar. But they are certainly in pole position and the team to beat now three points clear of a Manchester City team that may yet have a points deduction pending. They scored the only goal of the half of the game early on in the 16th minute. really well worked goal Declan Rice crossing and a superb finish from Kai Havertz who's not exactly found goals easy to come by this season but certainly took that one well enough and thereafter Liverpool had plenty of effort and plenty of guile but ultimately came up against a master defensive class from Arsenal who you have to say on balance were good value for it they felt they were on the wrong end of some refereeing decisions they certainly in my view should have had a penalty when Timber tugged on Alexander Isak's shirt at one stage in the first half.

10:02But overall, a thoroughly emphatic win for Arsenal despite the narrow scoreline of 1-0. Are they the unwatchables? That's probably a bit harsh because this was a very, very watchable game. But they certainly have that ominous look about them right now. Ian Whittle there, referencing this kind of slightly unflattering nickname, the unwatchables, that Arsenal have gathered. Is that a fear, Pete? Yeah, yeah. But I think there's an element of spite that always, you know, comes out among those who don't support Arsenal. They're the champions, right? They're the team everyone's trying to hit. So if you can't beat them, label them something that's not great.

10:40But yeah, this is, like I'm saying, this is the basis of which they're playing. And I think it felt quite significant for Arteta as well. Obviously, it has been so long since they've won at Anfield. And you could kind of tell watching him on the touchline. and it wasn't as, that's what I thought, it wasn't as explosive and, you know, on the touchline when we see him goading his players, whatever, just more expressive. Here it was a bit more - Coiled spring. Yeah, it was coiled spring, and it definitely, didn't it, at the full time, it all came out, and it's quite an interesting evolution, isn't it?

11:12Because remember the Amazon Prime documentary, and it came out about him, you know, using you'll never walk alone speakers in the train. This is something he really wanted to do, really wanted to get, so it does feel like quite a significant milestone and another I mean we feel it does feel with Arsenal just generally there's a level of maturity which always comes if you won the league that know-how but to go to Anfield and win like this I think it was comfortable right I know Liverpool there was a lot of pressure in the second half but as you said it was quite blunt I think that speaks to another step forward Cass should Liverpool have had a penalty should well yeah obviously should Isaac have to of course exaggerate or go down or die I don't think they give him one.

11:54Maybe it's Isaac's personality, but he's not one that you feel like he's... You know, you sometimes see players just literally throw themselves to the ground and their hands are up and Isaac's reaction to it was quite matter-of-fact. But there was no... You see, I think... And that's weird. In this instance, I would say it's a bit mean to even suggest it's Isaac's fault because... No, it's not Isaac's fault. Well, no, there's an implied criticism that if he'd flailed around, there might have been a penalty given. But if you think about what he was doing at the time that his shirt was pulled, he was trying to launch himself to head the ball.

12:31His shirt is being pulled, so he doesn't quite reach. That is not a natural falling over action. That action is not a trip. It's not a mawling. Yeah, that's the next point. The appeal. That's the strange reaction for many players. Because I can remember being in that scenario with Dennis Wise is at Chelsea where he's like shouting at me screaming he didn't even do that where other players did yet Izak who had had the foul I mean look unless the contact wasn't as strong I mean it can look like one thing if you're holding but does it how much Devil's Advocate slightly but it's not a hold for very long yeah he doesn't react he doesn't react at all so there's a question of I know you were doing that but did it really impact him but that's on VAR isn't it on VAR I've got to get it right that's the whole which is why we should bring him where Gregorin because I think he's chomping at the bits so Mark has got to get him straight in on him I mean, Peter Wharton in the paper today he's talking about he doesn't know why it wasn't given as a penalty you know, why haven't they stepped in there?

13:31I just feel like I'm not sure we'd really be talking about it that much in the days before VAR like, defending is always a case of there's like a threshold of how much he stretched the laws and it was remarkable how much Timber, Julian Timber was holding on to the threat until the very moment where he was able to let go and he sacked was just that much away from hitting the ball. So as a defender, he did his job by stretching the verminators of the laws. But having said all that, is Tony right, Alison? Because we have VAR, should this not have been cut and dry, no matter what Alexander Isai did afterwards?

14:05Well, yeah, I mean, it's another stick with which to beat VAR if the people in the booth are affected by the reactions on the pitch. Presumably one of the major points of VAR's Var's existence is to strip away the emotion and any play acting, any histrionics on the touchline. At which juncture, it makes life very difficult for the officials on the pitch if everyone's kicking off. So if you're going to argue in favour of Var existing, it would be it's a calm place, immune from the hysterics of the game, where they can just look at the pictures, replay the action and see clearly that there was a pull on the shirt and that is an act that results in a penalty kick.

14:48It should be immune to how he's at reacted or how any of his teammates reacted. But it does seem that the only way to explain it is that because there was so little fuss at the time, they bought into the vibe. It's even interesting, Darren Kan, former Premier League linesman, who's now a kind of pundit on Match of the Day or refereeing analyst or whatever you want to call him these days, he said it's right on the limit. It has to be sustained holding. Some will say it was sustained, some will say it wasn't. But it's interesting that Isak didn't even appeal. We even have a former referee. That's what we're trying to make the point.

15:26Mentioning that point, that feels like a sticky... No, when you referee... We're getting towards cricket, aren't we? No, exactly. But if you do a referee course, as I have done, in theory, you're supposed to give a penalty even if there's no contact, if the player has had to evade, try to do the right thing and avoid falling over. Just because someone stays on their feet does not automatically mean, oh, it is not a free kick or a penalty. But is Iriola right that ultimately it clearly is influencing the decisions and he would be saying go down in the future? It just is. And I think that's part of the game.

16:05And yeah, we should want the scenario that if you see a foul and you don't necessarily go mad for it, then it should be given. I just think the referee's there. He's not far away. He's from a set play. He can see it. And his judgment in real time is no. So we talk about VAR and his interventions, but if that's how he feels in that moment, of what he's seen of the contact, because he can't miss it. You can't not see it. He's decided it's not sustained. And if that's the case, then kind of okay with it. Could the referee have seen the nuance of Izek actually being pulled back from the ball. There is a point at which you think, oh, Isak's going to reach it, oh, he can't, because he's being tugged.

16:48That's a nuance, which if you believe in VAR, that's supposed to help you out. Yeah. Did any of you guys see the referee's camera from La Liga? You know, the referees now wear a camera and they kind of see their head, and you watched, there was a bit of footage revealed from the Classico. Did you see it, Cass? I did, but I know. We all met it against Barcelona. I have to say, watch that. I would urge anyone listening to go and watch that. You'll find it on social media. It will blow your mind how fast the game moves and how difficult this job is. Even like we've got a vantage point or in the press box and the stand or from watching at home and you have the benefit of the replays.

17:28Watching the speed at which this game is going on around these referees is extraordinary. So I have enormous sympathy for referees but a little less so. But that's the other thing though, right? that's the speed the game's played at so when we slow it down it does look like something else it's altering perceptions yeah anyway this final point Liverpool they've only scored four home league goals this season I think that's their joint fewest after five home games in a top top flight campaign since I think 2012 2013 and 1913 1914 so not they're struggling at home to find the back of the net why well yes it was Look at yesterday's game.

18:09There were some things that I thought happened with the substitutions that didn't... Barcola clearly couldn't do 90 minutes. Have you watched the last 20 minutes of Barcola? He is literally hanging on. It'll be first half though. I'm not saying that. They got to the hour mark or just before the hour mark and he clearly needed to be substituted because he's had the typical indifferent pre-season or he's involved in a transfer saga that you just don't start the season off absolutely flying on top of your game. And he stays on. He ends up putting Rio on, Engamara, on the right. Well, Rio is way better on the left and you've ended up with about five forwards in the team.

18:55And that was strange for me and it didn't make Liverpool look more effective to create chances and score goals. It's as what we talked about, the chaos that it was creating but not really anything at the end of any chance. So it was a really weird scenario. There's a lot of flicking going on with Liverpool. These little flicks and the ball into the 18-yard box, a little flick here. Loads of them are doing it. Don't like it. Don't like it. That's not, to me, that's not. Berts is guilty of it, but the amount of times the ball was fed into a forward and they try a little flick and then someone's flick.

19:27When you're fawning up, maybe. But when you're trying to get back to level and you've got bodies, There was bodies in front and Arsenal did that really well, but there was loads of bodies in every scenario. One thing that struck me, and you might be better to speak about this, but when you look at that Liverpool attack, physically, they're not as big or strong, particularly when you compare them to Arsenal, in terms of the presence that they have on the edge of the box. Every time they were doing that, it was these short, sharp touches because it's almost as though trapping it, holding off your man is not really what the best of crypto.

19:56If you look at Buckler or Munoz or Rio, they're good one-by-one running at people in motion rather than those sort of static moments, which I suppose maybe it's something that Isak maybe can develop. But even at Newcastle, that wasn't his best aspects of his play, was it? They kept running into bodies, though, Pete. That's it. That was a problem. You're running into, literally, where there's so many players. I mean, I think Wurtz had twice. He had two occasions where he actually couldn't get a strike off. He thinks he's got a chance and he hasn't. There's a body in front of him. And it just ended up being very messy and not a performance where I'd think, do you know what?

20:34This team can put it together. Because I thought in the first half when they really did play well, it was really quick first-time passing. People were breaking. And that sort of second half, it just changed. I do think they're improving. I feel like they're getting more like what Iriola wants his team to look like. And it's almost like you mentioned about Barclay. I mean, Barclay, I imagine his own background is with PSG not playing 90 minutes every week and particularly a different level of intensity. So it's going to take time. But I think that applies to the whole team. It's like we're getting with a Liverpool side.

21:06They're playing more and more, getting to each different minute milestone, like 60 minutes, 70 minutes, 80 minutes. I totally agree with that. I think he's definitely looking at that boom of scenario after nine games and what they become afterwards. I'd like to think that's going to happen. It's not a guarantee. and they've got a huge lot of talented players but you've got to stop it feels like a dolly mixture bag of players you know you're not quite sure if they work together I'm not sure about Verts I think he's a Harlem go try up a footballer but I'm not sure he fits into what Liverpool are trying to achieve OK well Manchester City slipping up mean that Arsenal move three points clear at the top of the table a big win for Brighton after we spoke about how big a week this was for Brighton.

21:53What are Brighton? How good are Brighton? What can they do this season? They lost at Anfield. They lost at the Etihad in the Cup on penalties in midweek after playing very well, granted. But they responded very well in this game, Alison. 1-0 victory. So I'll ask it again. How good can Brighton be? What can Brighton do this season? Well, because we've had one fairy tale in the history of the Premier League, i.e. Leicester, I would say Why not again Because why not Also I would say Brighton are playing better than Leicester did Something more compelling about them I think this was a really significant result Because to go to Anfield You're travelling from the south coast To Liverpool And then you're going to Manchester From the south coast And then you have to go back again a few days later They stayed up, actually, between the Manchester games.

22:47But it's an onus on the players away from home, whichever way you look at it. It's something you have to factor in. It's draining and draining physically, mileage-wise, being away from your family if you stay overnight, and also draining emotionally that you don't play badly in the two previous games, but you don't get anything out of them. So to lift yourselves for the third game in that trio of North West matches and match. I mean, City didn't play badly at all. They just, the Bruggan was in great form, wasn't he? But to lift yourself, I think, speaks to a group of players who actually believe they can do something special.

23:31Because it's easy to say, we're just going to write off that trio of matches. Because their fixture list coming up is moderate in terms of onus. Had a hard start, hadn't they? They've had a really tough start And they could have thought Let's just We've got the Conference League I'm not saying you would deliberately Throw the game right I'm just saying Psychologically You could be forgiven for dipping For your third game in the North And instead They treated it like It was some sort of Last game of the season To get Champions League football Which is phenomenally impressive Well you also saw A slightly different side to them Didn't you Because you know They really took the game to City In the Cup in the Cup in midweek and actually they could have gone ahead at Anfield and then they've got two quick fire goals went behind that changed the face of the game they played well in both of those games in an attacking sense in this game they took the lead and they defended really well didn't they so they showed a different side to them that yeah another side to their character I do agree with that I do agree with Alison because if you that kind of environment you can use that as a springboard or it can work the other way like it shows that they are really pulling in the right direction I just they you're right This was a different performance.

24:44I think they deserved to win in midweek. And maybe this was much more indebted to Bartholomew Bruggan, who had a fantastic game. Seven saves, I think he made. He's another player. I mean, there's so many of them at Brighton who improve. And he's had the time to do that because I think in the last season or two, he's had moments that have been a bit shaky, where if you're in a different spotlight, it's a different game. It's a different ball game. And I suppose this is one of the advantages that Brighton have and Brentford have in that when you are making these mistakes, when you are a young player who makes mistakes, you're not getting the same intensity of heat.

25:18It's not constantly being talked about on a Monday. So that's all helpful, I think, for them. But I think in terms of the level, to do that over a week against that level of opponent in terms of the consistency of performances is really encouraging. And I mean, we always talk about whether they can sustain it and they are setting the benchmark for intensity in the league, pressing the high turnover numbers, PPDA, the goals. But not just that, you know, they're inventive, intelligent. I mean, your piece on Friday about shooting from the halfway line, which we talked about last week, it's really interesting, which is, again, as you pointed out, which I found fascinating, it's in the lower leagues as well.

25:57They're all sort of thinking about this, but they're at the forefront of everything, right? Yeah, yeah. And Hull City were in that forefront of long shot. Can I just add on one thing? The only argument that people were making that Leicester couldn't win the title, It was the year when they won the title, was that they were Leicester. That was the only argument that Leicester... Well, come on, no. Look at the evidence. They were going toe-to-toe with Leicester when they won the title, in the early part of the season. The second part of that season, they had five 1-0 wins. So they'd gone different in the second part of the season.

26:30But the only argument anyone said, well, they're Leicester. Now I'm looking at Brighton, I'm thinking, well, if you look at the numbers and you go, they've scored 10 more than Arsenal, and Arsenal are top of the league. Second best defence. Second best defence. They've scored the most in the Premier League. There's something scarily good about this Brighton team. Now, do I expect them to? No, because they're Brighton. And no more, that's my only reason. This is nuts. We should be saying this team are a title-challenging team as we stand today. We're a quarter of a way or just, well, just nearly a quarter of a way through the season.

27:04This team have played City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal. in their own 99 games, right? Villa. Villa, 4-0, Villa. You know, beat Coventry 5-0. I mean, this team has played some seriously tough games and the only reason is that we look at them and I had this on the weekend on the radio and people, wow, European football. Everyone's looking for a reason why they can't win it. Maybe we should be going, well, they bloody can win it because they're a good side and they're a dangerous side. And this is where it gets interesting, right? Because that's when the conversation changes. And like I was saying before with Brighton, it's a different ecosystem, right?

27:39But then if you sustain it, you get to Christmas and we're having the same conversation. It's a different atmosphere. Even the scrutiny is different at that point. It's like, ooh, each week. What is it coincidence, Pete, that Hearts last year in Scotland was owned by the same group? Well, no, not at all. No, but Hearts were never going to be seen as a team that might challenge. And so to me, it's just because they're Brighton. Just quickly, anything to worry about at City, Pete? After last week's defeat at Villa as well. I still think that the things we talked about. Clearly there's a lot of big fans to worry about.

28:12Give that context. On-field stuff that we talked about with Moressa coming in in terms of different positions suiting what he wants to do. I still think they're relevant and they will make their presence felt more during the season. John Donnarumma is another aspect of that. There's been a lot of talk about his form and I'm not sure he's the right profile for what Enzo Moressa would ideally want to do, but the criticism is not actually about that so much. It's more about what he's really supposed to be good at, which is the shot stopping and being that marginal gain, that difference in goal. It was an interesting midfield because Fernandes played as the 10 and Shirky was on the bench, which I said before could happen.

28:52I think it's very difficult to leave a player of that quality at the team, so I'm sure he'll come back in. But there's a lot of still feeling out to what he will want his team to look like. But the quality is all still there. I mean, on a different day, they win this game and maybe it's a different conversation. They've had a better start than I think a lot of people expected, given who Enzo Morescu is replacing. So it's still early. They're still in a good position. But yeah, there are certain elements of the team. Another factor, I think, with City is the adrenaline that they applied when the guilty verdict came out of the Premier League.

29:29There was that defiance and you saw it in the crowd and you saw it on the pitch. you know, no one likes us, we don't care, we are going to show them we are better than you all. And they played with absolute bounce, you know. The adrenaline of that is going, I can see it ebbing already, actually. And as the season progresses, or we reached closer to whether their appeal is successful or not, I can see that it's going to have an impact on them on the pitch. Because you can't sustain indignation for a full season. Okay well after the bet we're going to talk about some of the under pressure managers A few other results to get through Hull 2, Ipswich 2 both on 11 points from 9 games Atali, no promoted team has ever accrued at this stage and gone on to be relegated Bournemouth 2, Leeds 0 Pete, 14-0 aggregate scoreline over 5 straight wins And the guy you interviewed on Thursday James Hill has been part of that defence from Fleetwood to Wembley was the headline on your interview tell us a bit he's in fantastic form and I mean the clean sheets sort of speak for themselves at Bournemouth in terms of what they've managed to start doing defensively but he's had to really bide his time join the club in 2023 wasn't playing he's watched other centre-backs be ahead of him like Zabani, Halson I think when he joined he had Gary Cahill was at the club at the time and Nat Phillips was in the championship and he's sort of earned the trust of the club and the coaches to be the next guy to play and this year 2026 he's played every minute for bournemouth as they've qualified for europe as they are now playing exceptionally well marco rosa before i spoke to him just said when i asked him about about hill he just said he thinks at his best he's one of the best defenders in england and given given the questions about centre-back for england he's he's getting close to that and also just he's a a lovely guy, really grounded, down to earth, a different sort of journey into the game.

31:36I mean, his dad, Matt Hill, was a footballer, but he joined Fleetwood after being released at Bolton. He had a trial at Blackpool, but it didn't work out. He didn't play organised football until he was 10, which I found to be amazing, particularly in this day and age. But he's played a lot of lower league football very early, made his debut at 16 under Joey Barton. And from there, he's worked his way forward. and always, I just got the sense, and you know, you don't always get this sense because interviews with media, there's a guard, right? But for him, it didn't feel like there was one and it just, every step of the way, he's sort of, he's loved every moment.

32:16Like, for instance, I asked him about his debut, which was away at Leicester in the cup when he was 16. And he just, the thing he said he remembered, one of the things he said he remembered was going into the hotel and they're being in an amazing double bed. Like, little things like that. But yeah, I mean, he's a big character. He's an important player for Marco Rosa. And I don't think we were really that worried about Bournemouth considering some of their earlier performances. And this is now, they're sort of getting into a rhythm and a flow and balancing Europe quite well. It was interesting because Rosa was one of the, I think they've made the fewest changes.

32:52I think that's starting to change now because he's having to do it. But he's getting players back. Alex Scott's not played. He's injured. Junior Kruppi just came back the weekend a lovely six works as well he's been injured he's been in and out so there's I mean they're seventh aren't they okay there's a lovely interview you can find that at the Times website it's break time which means of course quiz time are you ready six players born within 20 miles of the Emirates Stadium have started two or more Premier League games this season for Arsenal can you name them find out after the break

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34:40Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Gregor Robertson alongside Alison Rudd, Pete Rutzler and Tony Cascarino. Before the break, I asked a quiz question which was, six players born within 20 miles of the Emirates Stadium has started two or more Premier League games this season for Arsenal? Can you name them? And the answer It was a team effort guys Yeah it was good Good collaboration Declan Rice Kingston upon Thames Bukayo Saka Ealing Emerit Chiesi Greenwich Noni Madueke Barnett Miles Luskele Denmark Hill Esri Konsa Silvertown No Premier League club has more than two equivalent players That's an interesting quirk and actually this is in Bill Edgar's column as always you know the place to mind because that was questions They've been the Lions didn't they?

35:23Not quite considering they bought most of them as well. But it is quite interesting. They're a bit of a local hue to their team. Anyway, on to some of the managers feeling the heat a bit as we approach the next international break. We all know that Michael Carrick is under enormous scrutiny right now. But I just wanted to ask you, which manager of Carrick, Oliver Glasner, Pierre Asage and Regis Labris is actually most likely to lose his job between now and we'll say now and the end of the international break It's a question of which goes first There's no interesting cases because they do have sort of stuff for them the case for the defence is there Oliver Glasner, the underlying data is really strong I think for XG and XG points XG difference, they should be third so that only tells you half the story it means they're not scoring goals so again that's something that we do work on but British Liberis there's Europe there's balancing Europe and clearly they're struggling to do that and then PSR I mean you look at the players they've lost look at the squad now it's not as strong that's it that doesn't that doesn't mean that they they're immune to it it's the tools you make of it and also you have to factor in if you're Glasner you're playing under Evangelos Maranakis very unpredictable I don't know I don't know what you guys think, but maybe I feel like Sarge is more vulnerable.

36:53But I don't know if changing Sarge necessarily changes all of the issues that are there. Surely the most vulnerable is Glasner, though, because of what he's been saying. All the managers you listed there, Gregor, have actually been quite calm and humble and the dash of statesman likeness to them in their current predicament. but Glasner, he's throwing down the gauntlet to his owner. Yep. If you say things like... Not always a wise thing to do it for Angelos Malanakis. And he's justifying himself. The other managers are not doing that. He's saying, I'm having to compromise. What does that mean?

37:40He's also saying I can have a job in two weeks' time and have a job, which is, you know... He's openly talking about being sacked. Yeah. As soon as... Oh, I don't know. As soon as... Go on, read it out. I've got his quotes here. We have to accept it's not good enough. If we lose four of the last five games, it's not good enough. And that's why, for me, it's now time that we change things, that I change things, and that's what I will do. I feel now maybe I made too many compromises in some stuff, and it's always compromises. It's a clear way. I will tell the players what we want to do, what we have to do, and if the players buy in, I think we can have a turnaround.

38:19And if not, the sixth manager, since the start of last season, will come in. So he's... He's sacking himself. They say visualise success, visualise scoring a great goal, visualise making that great tackle. He's visualising being sacked, which means it's going to happen. I would still say Carrick. I just feel that... I was excluding Carrick. Yeah, go on. I'm sorry. Let's get into Carrick then, because clearly he's the manager under the most pressure and scrutiny. Outside the bottom three on goal difference, winless in past nine games in all competitions, the worst run since 1984. Pete, you were there at Stamford Bridge for the 2-0 defeat.

39:02Tell us a bit about the atmosphere and the demeanour and body language of this Manchester United team and Michael Carrick. Yeah, I think on the basis of this game, I felt for Carrick because they were the better team in the first half. They created good chances. They're still a flawed team. Defensively, there were spaces. Midfield, they were not as strong as Chelsea, but that first half, they were the better team. They scored, had a goal ruled out for offside. Ahmad missed a good chance. Fernandes misses a good chance. Carrick can't put the ball in the net himself kind of thing. But then they come out in the second half and it just took Chelsea to have a little bit more wind in their sails, a manager to say something to them and suddenly Morgan Rodgers is walking through the middle of the team and then Lissandro Martinez just sabotages the game, really.

39:53I mean, there's a discussion about Martinez, why he's being selected, which is on the coach, given what he said before and given the nature of his performances. His performances haven't been good to this point and then you put in a performance like this. I mean, the yellow cards were ridiculous. this. I mean, the first one is he's basically holding on to Morgan Rodgers for dear life to try and stop him. And then the red card is just, it's brainless. Can I say how quickly I have a little bit of sympathy for him? I think most people do, Gregor. No, no, I mean for the second challenge in particular.

40:22I know it's because he's so he's, like we've spoken a lot about how diminutive this guy is. His job, the only way he can compete with anyone else in the box for aerial challenges like that is to throw his entire body and weight into But if you watch And yes I know he caught him At the wrong way He's lost his man And he doesn't He turns and runs At the man Like I don't see how You can make that It's not competing For the ball Because he doesn't know Where the ball is No I know He's just running Yeah no it's I Look What's happened In recent weeks He's Obviously had Martinez Come out and do a speech And say what he thinks Is wrong at the top Of the club By the way His contract's coming At the end of the season So okay He's had his mouthpiece there To say some things Then he's had Fernandes do a similar thing, say things about the club and tactics and blah, blah, blah.

41:11He's took both of them out of the firing line and then brought them back as that problem's been. We've talked it out. We've solved it. They were United's worst two players on Saturday. Whatever way we look at it, Martinez, with his red card, and as Pete said about the way he's got sent off, that's a terrible way of defending Gregor. whatever we say if you don't know where the ball is and your only content is leading with your elbow and trying to just fling yourself at someone to stop them yep okay you're going to get red carded that's why he's called the butcher okay and then Fernandes' performance that's not a performance by Fernandes of well maybe I'm not should have said something but he's put me back in I'm going to prove to him how good I can be I thought he was ominous in the game so coming back to where does this leave Carrick like he was in no man's land before this game it's you know this is I don't know did it even make it worse was this a surprise what was the feeling just for me I mean there was a moment in the second half where you know Chelsea Chelsea weren't good by the way they've got their own issues and I think this covered it a little bit but moment in the second half Chelsea are freewheeling a little bit fans have been quite tentative at the start of the game really enjoying it they start singing character we want you to stay and then United fans which they have done consistently and I think it's understandable but then they they roll out Carrick's chant from his playing days, he's magic, you know, and it just felt like, what a mess, you know, because clearly, rightly or wrongly, and it says a lot about the nature of the dressing room, they need a new voice.

42:45Otherwise, there's not going to be a change in this situation. It's not a sustainable situation. The players, to a degree, it's like they know that the criticism is going to be thrown elsewhere, as it should be, to a degree, but that's not good for performances when they're consistently like this. You know, the away end are singing. They're singing against Jason Wilcox. They're singing against the new stand. They're singing against Sir Jim Ratcliffe as well as the Glazers. It's not, it's just, it's a very, there's going to have to be a change. But of course, if you make the change, Carrick is like this sort of, he's our guy in the dugout for the supporters, you know, and it's like, you take him out the way, then it is just all hierarchy, which kind of is already, but they're not doing it.

43:26They're not biting the bullet. And there are other aspects, Like, you know, there's the finances side of it. Like, there's been a conversation. I know we talked about it. It's Jim Ratcliffe and Ineos are making the cuts at United. But the spending and the high wages that they've had before and the constant, the changing of managers. Like, this is inhibiting them. It's why they, when they spend, they're spending more like a mid-table, top mid-table team in the summer rather than with the freedom of a club challenging consistently, not just Champions League, but for the title. So, they're in a mess.

43:55It's a mess. It's a real mess. There's a lot to be said here on Manchester United and what's happened. That's clear. Also, I'd say United's best player was Fafania. Because what he did in the game, he's nearly gifted them two goals. They didn't take them. Just spending poorly. You're right, you're right. Quickly on Chelsea, though. I mean, Esteval. Going to see more of him? Did you get to the rules of why he was allowed to play for so long? I thought he started him because of potentially partially because of the clamour for him to start. But he's no way is he going to get more than 60 minutes.

44:32But he allowed him to undermine the excuses given for not playing Esteval was the physicality of the game, his physicality. Or system. The excuses for not playing Esteval have not been clear, as of a lot of things with Alonso. Because you can, I wrote this ahead of the game. We don't really know the direction of travel with their style because it's not really what Alonso liked and did at Leverkusen, which was far more aggressive, more pressing. We haven't really seen much of that. They're actually ranked quite low for that. I asked him on Friday about which of Chelsea's early performances was the closest to what he wants his team to look like.

45:10And he said Everton away, which is not what I think a lot of people will expect. That was a solid, he called it a solid, serious away performance, a 2-0 win. It wasn't a 5-1 against Bournemouth. It wasn't the 6-3 against Leeds. So that's the early views of Chelsea from the outside. Oh, dung-slinging attack. That's not necessarily what he wants. So there's a lot of progress that still needs to be made. And Esteval was just another thing that I think no one really was quite sure. Pedroneta has been fantastic. Really the kind of player that I think every coach really likes. No matter who's in charge of Chelsea, they play him and they rely on him because of his work on and off the ball.

45:48And that's partly what you're saying there, Alison. But also it's been mentioned about physicality. It's also been mentioned, can he be a wingback in this system? He played with wingers, really, against United. It was more of a 4-2-3-1. And then there's sort of been this, why is he not playing? Why is he not playing? He didn't play at all against Liverpool, which was a real sort of, oh, is he not taken to him? And then he fielded loads of questions on Friday about him. And obviously with the knowledge that he was going to start him on Saturday.

46:19I'm not sure Is the answer It feels like an element of trust And it's clear that What he can do on the ball Is fantastic And he's useful Because the fans love him He comes on Everyone's on their feet They sing for him And to not use him Actually works against him When the performances Aren't as good So Imagine we'll still sing Yael Pedro Yael Pedro is totally Their standout player Okay let's talk about Crystal Palace and Pierre Saj Now To another defeat at Spurs not helped by Jean-Philippe Mateta being sent off in the 13th minute Alison but as Pete pointed out at the start there's a lot of mitigation for him too so Daniel Munoz Maxence Lacroix Gehi before him Chadi Riyad Torres ACL in August Ismail Assar has barely played Mateta and Dean Henderson haven't always been fit to play he's had a hard a tough hand right he's had a very tough hand but does it matter It's kind of irrelevant at this stage of the season because Crystal Palace aren't going to change the way they're buying and selling model.

47:25And you can't do much about injuries to key players. What you can do is have a coach that gets the best out of what he's got. And if your coach is starting to look like it's too much for him, the project is too big for him, i.e. first time in the Premier League with a squad that falls short compared to most of those. Normally you'd be thinking about 10th, 11th place, 12th maybe for Crystal Palace. His squad isn't as good as those teams currently in those positions. What you need, it might seem incredibly cruel, but as we've talked about, But maybe the Man United players need a new voice to get them back playing to the best of their ability.

48:10The Crystal Palace players probably need a new voice because the narrative is one of... If you own the club, you don't want to hear what you just said, Greg, a list of the reasons why it's going wrong. What you want to hear is, it's been a bit difficult this season, but look at the way the managers gel the players he's got. Look at the way the manager is rising to the difficulties ahead of him. Look at just how, even with 10 men, they really took it to Spurs. Well, they didn't. Can I see you were there? Yeah. Well, obviously, 10 men against 11 and Mateta gets sent off and they've lost Stran Larsson in the European game just before.

48:47They've got no centre forward. The standout feature for me, and I did because I did a piece on Adam Walton, was that he's seen everybody leave the football club and the names you mentioned. and one thing he needs to make him really stand out as a player is options when he's got the ball. There was nothing. And even with 10, you can go, well, okay, it's 10 against 11. So it's hard to judge him. But I've watched them in other games and they really haven't got anybody. There's no out ball for Crystal Palace. And that was a standout feature. Tottenham didn't have to play well, Gregor, to win the game.

49:19And at 1-0, I never got even a sense of an element of going to get an equaliser. Substitutions were going on to try and hang on to a 1-0, it felt. And inevitably, it went to 2. But Palace are in trouble, and they're in serious trouble. Now, their lack of activity in the transfer market, they'll reference they spend money. They went out and bought six or seven players in the summer. They'll talk about that, Crystal Palace. But a lot of them players are not in their team. So it's another, it's compounding the problem with, Ismail Assar, you'd want back desperately, because he's the sort of player that can change the way that you can play.

49:55Palace are set up to be a counter-attacking team. They have to be. They don't have the players to be a front-footed, go after the opposition. They're not set up. They've conceded 21 goals, I think, Gregor, in the nine games. That's two and a half goals a game. They're going to keep shipping in goals. So I actually think Palace are in a bit of a doom loop of whether I was a football club. Can I just make one point as well, which includes Palace? But if you look at all the teams who are struggling here, Palace, Sunderland, Forest, all in Europe You mentioned about recruitment Maybe we take a little bit for granted When you see Brighton and Brentford And how exceptional they are Bournemouth as well At replacing players consistently Those clubs in Europe are having to comply With UEFA's financial rules Which are similar to the Premier League But it's harsher So in the Premier League it's 85 % of revenue For new SCR Which I think without anchoring attached to it Is not good for the league I think it really hamstrings these middle class clubs.

50:53And I think this is a sign of it. When you wait for 70%, 70 % of your revenue, and then you're going into a league season in the Premier League, competing in Europe and also trying to sustain league performances. Stronger, deeper squad. It just doesn't, it makes it harder to have the deeper squad. So for them, even in this, like, it means the work you do in the summer has to be exceptionally good. Now, we can talk about the Premier League relative strength to Europe. I'm not necessarily worried about that because I'm sure they'll still do fine in Europe. But in the Premier League, I think it's a big issue.

51:25I think it's a big issue for those clubs and they are finding it particularly difficult. And I think that's also a factor that should be considered. It's not really thought about because everyone goes, oh, they're all in Europe and maybe it's the base. They haven't played enough football for it to be balancing football. It's actually the squads that they've actually been able to build and the work they've been able to do. Yeah, that's a very good point. Cass, just quickly on Spurs. Three wins in a row for the first time since February 2025. That's a remarkable stat. But are we starting to see more of a deservedly-looking team emerge?

51:53Still problems. My problems would be that Mahmouche and Solanke didn't really contribute too much to the game. Mahmouche fleet is in and out of games all the time. He's a talented boy. You can see that. But they're in forward areas. It's clearly Tottenham. Solanke doesn't look like he's fit. He just looks to me. I'm watching him and I'm thinking... And you always go back to your own career when you struggled in times and you had injury issues. Solanke looks like he's not on top of his game physical-wise. I was watching Calvert-Lewin like that at Everton when Calvert-Lewin was having certain periods of in and out of the team, not looking as sharp.

52:31And when you were quite a big lad and you're not playing the minutes required, I find most of them really struggle. And Solanke's there. He's really having a hard time, even though it was a victory they deserved. But it wasn't a victory from what the forwards did. It was more about what other players did. Tonali looked really sharp I didn't realise how quick he was Gregor It's actually surprising When you watch someone live And you see him Literally make a break And go into the gullies Tonali looked really quick Fernandes, Tonali Their midfield looked Way more assured So who do we think Is going to be sacked first then?

53:05Hang on, hang on I've still got Reggie Libris To have a little Spurs up to 8th by the way On 12 points That was a quick turnaround Yes Let's talk about Sunderland and Reggie Libris 3-1 defeat at Coventry this one feels slightly different he may be a victim much of what Pete said there about the challenge of playing in Europe is true but a bit of a victim of his own success perhaps well when we were asked to do our predictions at the start of the season I said Sunderland might be in trouble because it's second season syndrome which takes its toll plus you've got European competition as well it's asking an awful lot of a club that put so much into getting promotion and surprising us all last season.

53:52I think Regis Labrie, of the men we're discussing who might be up for the sack, conducts himself incredibly well. Yeah, always does. And you actually, you know, you can watch them lose quite convincingly. There's a convincing loss to a buoyant Coventry who are supposed to be more likely to go down because they're the newly promoted team this time around. and he still believes, I believe he believes in the system. I believe he believes he's got the players. He doesn't allow that sort of negative vibe to creep in, which is very easy to do when it's going against you. If you just took his post-match and pre-match comments in isolation, you think some of them are fine.

54:40They're just absolutely fine because they've got somebody who totally believes that he's got what it needs. Whereas, I don't know, in other instances, like Sarge, I think when he talks, you can sort of see it weighing on his shoulders a bit, but doesn't quite have the resources he'd like and the messages aren't getting through in the way he'd like. So Labrie talks a good game, but he's also got a demanding owner who sees stars and fireworks and wants it to be more exciting than it is I suspect the best case scenario for Sunderland this season is they stick with Labrie they just avoid relegation but they do really well in Europe AC Milan at the San Siro next month will they still be in charge?

55:30Just looking at the fixtures now they've got midweek against Saga but then it's Chelsea at home Villa away then they've got a European game then it's Sunderland Spurs at home and Liverpool away it's a tough one so So the heat's going to turn and you're absolutely right. And the problem when you're in these kind of positions and it applies to all these teams really, you can be playing well, but the more you don't win, the more you don't score, if you're Forrest, for example, the more it seeps into you, the cycle. The more pressure builds, it affects performances and then you're in a cycle that's very hard to break.

56:04Look, we cover ourself here. At a time we go off air today and we've not only got any news around us, We might have found one of them's already gone. That's how brutal it can be. Well, I personally think that Carrot will go. And it's because Manchester United, the stature of that football club, if you look at Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, if any of them were sitting in the position they are, it wouldn't matter some of the other stuff of how well we did last season. That wouldn't matter. They'd sack you. Now, I just feel like that big club, because it is a big club, We know it is, but I just feel that will weigh on the decision on him.

56:44Pete? Really excellent piece on Saturday, just underlying the baseline for United under Carrick and how much that the end of last season was so much of an overperformance that actually, in terms of how they were playing, it wasn't massively above Ruben Amorim. And that sometimes you can just have that amazing, amazing run. and now this is actually what we're seeing now is more of a reversion to where they were before. So back four are going to concede goals. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I don't think changing character changes everything. Clearly not. Alison? Several of them will go but I think Glasner might be at most risk simply because he's made it a thing.

57:28It wasn't a thing and now it's a thing. Should we just end by one thing we should say there's a piece on the Times website which I'll urge our listeners to go and read. This is the way you frame this conversation. Some people think that's a terrible way to analyse people's jobs and whatnot. But we're talking about the context. It's about whether they deserve more time or not. If you look now at Fulham, who just drew one all with Villa at the weekend. Not a few weeks ago, Alvaro Arbeloa would have been on this list. But they've now lost one of their last six games. So, do they all deserve more time, but more patience?

58:02I think each one has its own story, right? each one's its own scenario. But I mean, in Arbaloa's case, he's under a lot of pressure. He was. I'd love to change in rules, mate. I'd love to change in rules on managers because I think you shouldn't be able to sack them before the next window in January. I think you should have to be forced to go with it and stop all this nonsense about giving people time, give them a chance to get to Christmas. And if the people upstairs make a really poor appointment, it's on them, okay? All this idea of four games, six games, eight games, and how they're doing and can managers turn it around in the next two weeks, I think it's totally unfair.

58:41I'd love a system to go, next window is when you first can change your manager, like players. Okay, well. That is a lot of horrible Christmases. Okay, Al. It's a lot of horrible Christmases in many ways for other people, but to give people a fair chance of doing the job, instead of just going, well, we can sack them willy-nilly when we like. I just think he's wrong well I think one man who would not like that rule is Evangelos Maranakis and I'm with you Elliot I fear for Glasner don't come out against a big man and expect to last for long history doesn't sit well does it for the manager at Forest anyway we shall see Cass Pete Alison thank you very much for joining me Tom and I will be back with an EFL podcast in the week and we shall be back with the regular show on Thursday I hope to see you then

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