All change...again

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1:07Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times at Sunday Times. Two weeks ago, Tottenham were doomed and Arsenal were about to be knocked off top spot. But after two wins in two, Spurs are out of the relegation zone and Arsenal are six points clear again. Makes sense of that, eh? Well, we'll give it a go. On today's show, we'll discuss the top and bottom of the Premier League table, Manchester United's 3-2 win against Liverpool, ask whether Keith Andrews should be manager of the season and we'll look ahead to another massive week of action in Europe. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the football reporter and tactical analyst Hamza Khalid-Lunat and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Olsen is alongside me.

1:45As usual, team, hello. How are we doing? Hello, Tom. Thank you very much for coming in to work on a bank holiday Monday. Top professionals as ever. But there is so much to discuss. I think we have to start with Tottenham, don't we? Alison, I know you're at Arsenal. I mentioned them both in my intro. but we have to start with Tottenham. I was on the editing desk last night at the Times and quite frankly, could not believe what I was seeing. It was like a different team. It's like a different team. We'll get on to Aston Villa being completely toilet in a minute. But I mean, Tottenham, Gregor. We talked last week with Tom Orlott and we were all going, you know, Tom being the Spurs man for the Times was saying, listen, you know, let's not rule them out.

2:25Let's not write them off. But you in particular, all of us, I think, were going, and God, they're just scraped past walls. They've got no players. This was an amazing performance. Yeah. I mean, yeah, just did not see it coming. And I wasn't alone in that, I don't think, but I made it very clear. I didn't have any faith in Tottenham going to Villa, putting in a performance like this, never mind getting the result. And I thought they were brilliant. I thought how they were without the ball was the most important thing. They packed the centre of the pitch because anyone who's watched Villa at all, in Unai Emery's time as manager, knows how well they attack through the spine of the pitch.

3:03They can't do really incisive passes and getting players, particularly wide players, coming inside and getting on the half turn. They just packed the centre of the pitch and pressed really high and they could not deal with it. And they started to resemble Roberto de Zerbi team, like Brighton teams. There was a lot of cat and mouse pressing. He always did that. The forwards were kind of, even the goalkeeper, Martinez, is coming out with it just step by step and forwards are kind of pretending to go and then they'd eventually go and like individual players like performances as well. Conor Gallagher was a man possessed.

3:39Jao Polina was a man possessed. I thought even telling Colomuani although their end product is not always there they were a real threat. Yeah. Richarlison. Richarlison. Great header. He loves a scrap that lad doesn't he? I mean that's really found his purpose in life I think battling away for a team that's maybe underperforming near the bottom of the table. He did brilliantly for Everton and he does it for Tottenham, not necessarily when they're near the top of the table and everyone goes, Richarlison's rubbish, he's no good for Tottenham. But now, he's the perfect man for Tottenham. It's quite something to strike an attitude when you're fighting relegation, isn't it?

4:13I mean, his poise and pose afterwards was very much, I think I've just won the Champions League, single-handed. They were giving it big licks in the celebrations, weren't they? But I mean, Alisson, I mentioned Aston Villa's performance. Where do you side on Tottenham? Greg, are very impressed. You maybe not so from our prep. I will be honest, I found it incredibly irritating because what happened was what Spurs have and have had all season is a talented and athletic defence. Yeah. A very aggressive, solid midfield and probably lacked a bit of flair, at least being able to regularly call upon the same individuals to provide flair.

4:57It's been flitting in and out because of injury. and so when you have that sort of team you play big on the effort and energy and connection with the crowd and there's something sinful about the adoration they got from the traveling spurs fans and the effort they put in which is exactly what they could have done all season and finished sixth seventh or eighth if they play this is is this going to be what they are every year as soon as it becomes like relegation is a possibility or a trophy against the odds is a possibility last season they suddenly start discovering what they have as opposed to what they do not have which is that thomas frank was perfectly capable of getting that performance against aston villa because he had those qualities in the team the qualities that he admires but everyone the entire Spurs fan base was, it's not attractive enough for us.

5:55So as soon as it becomes desperate, they buy into it. But there is the gap in the middle, isn't there? There's the Igor Tudor part where he came in and trashed everyone and they looked completely bereft. So this Deserby part should be reflected of that, shouldn't it? Yes, he's done well to pick them up from that absolute low point. Yeah. Absolutely. That's when everyone started going, oh my God, Tottenham are actually going to get relegated. That's when Gregor turned and went, I don't see any way back from this. Under Thomas Frank, I agree with you. It was this guy and Tottenham feels like maybe it's not quite the fit.

6:25They're not enjoying the football. I'm agreeing with your points, but I'm just saying there's the gap in the middle that we judge Deserby by, don't we? And the Tottenham fans, they had this point of a manager seen as a gun for hire, brought in, trashes everyone, and they perform abysmally. That's what we judge Deserby on, surely. The fans got what they deserved with Igor because of how they handed out Thomas Frank without trying to buy in. You still look like Thomas Frank. Because the performance we saw, you say you saw a sign of Deserby. I saw signs of Thomas Frank in that performance. Both things can be true, surely.

7:02Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm agreeing with you that you can look at it and go, well, actually, there's a world in which maybe if they just kept Thomas Frank, they wouldn't have got relegated. I think that's probably fair. No, no, but they probably would have because the fans wouldn't have given them that backing. Really? I think there were a few more passing combinations, particularly midfield than we ever really saw when Thomas Franklin's the helm I will at this point say that had a lot to do with how bad Villa were but you saw Gallagher Palinja and Bentacour play together in a way that they haven't really done all season and as I say I think he got more from the white push I also actually think even you saw Van de Ven doing the thing that Brighton centre-halves often dead under the server which is that just stepping out gradually standing on the ball waiting surveying inviting the press trying to bait the press and they looked confident and I think I'm not going to go overboard because it's been a bit up and down so far obviously there was the Sunderland game then they played really well against Brighton and were lucky not to win the Wolves game they were lucky to win this is the best performance by a country mile can they be like this to the end of the season if they can they've got a great chance there's still a big question In terms of De Zerbi, Hamza, we're talking a lot about his big picture, kind of his tactical stuff.

8:22He's a manager that we got to know quite well from his time at Brighton. Are there things that Gregor and Alison are talking about? Is this why it's actually quite a good fit with this Tottenham set-up as it is at the minute? Last week, we were talking about all the injuries that they have. Tom Allnott wrote a brilliant piece on the Times website at the weekend about exactly that. But actually, maybe that this is quite a good fit with that manager and this kind of depleted squad. I still wouldn't say that this squad is built to what De Zerbi wants, right? but he has got them doing a few things differently they pass forwards which sounds very simple but Spurs fans that have watched them a lot this season will go yeah thank goodness they pass forwards because take the period and Thomas Frank I think I only watched them live once I think they played Crystal Palace away at Crystal Palace and again there was just so much sideways movement the horseshoe passing yeah and then long ball and then the knockdown and then set pieces and they are very good at set pieces one of the members of staff that they retained when Thomas Frank left was Andreas Georgeson, previously at Manchester United and then previously at Brentford.

9:23So that has been one of their saving graces this season. They've been consistently good at them and take that Palace match as an example that proved the difference in a number of matches earlier this season which has kept them in kept them from sliding further down the table. I don't think this squad is what Deserby wants, would have wanted, will want going forward however he's managed to find a few little bits that he likes in each player, as you would need to as a manager, right? I like this thing about you. You're not going to say, I don't like that you can't pass forward.

9:55But yeah, and he said, okay, we're going to play to those strengths. We're going to use them. Like Greg has said, you are beginning to see the patterns. De Zerbe is really highly rated by a number of sporting directors in the Premier League. They just love the way that his teams play, the way that he's able to take talent and make that greater than make that great than the sum of its parts and I'm not sure if we'll see that to the fullest extent with Spurs but he's done a good job yesterday all the technical and tactical stuff that we're talking about here like it's dwarfed by comparison to the psychological achievement it would be to pick Tottenham up from the place they were the squad they inherited and getting them playing with that level of confidence and intensity and desire all those things that is the thing that will keep Spurs up above anything else because we've said throughout the season yeah this isn't a squad that you would sort of say Tottenham should have but it's better than this and we saw it there we saw it in this game although on paper honestly truth on paper before kick-off I thought oh I really really like the look of the Spurs side compared to the Villa side Villa's team has been over-performing all season if you just look at who they've got but making seven changes seven changes and looking at the players brought in and you compare the two team sheets, even though Spurs have a horrendous injury list, I still felt there was more class, quality, some actual really great players on the teams, the Spurs team sheet compared to the Villa team sheet.

11:30The Villa team sheet looked flimsy. And then, lo and behold, and you think, oh, well, Unai Emery, we're always praising his ability to work with difficult circumstances. is he's got something up his sleeve here. He's obviously seen something in training. This is a group of players who are going to show me I've got a wealth of options for the Europa League semi-final. No, no. I don't know what he saw or where. Maybe he went on holiday. It was not. It was. I'm struggling to think of a worse first half performance that I've seen from any team, including Spurs, this season. It was a disaster, you've got to say.

12:06I mean, it's also a fascinating thing with this Aston Villa team, isn't it? when you think about what kind of happened at the end of last season. A brilliant season. Those heartbreaking miss against PSG that night at Villa Park, Gregor, that you've mentioned. Then they fall out of the Champions League places. This season, terrible start. Couldn't buy a goal. Mischiefers people like me are saying, oh, Unai Emery might be under a bit of pressure. You lot are going, no, you idiot. Shut up. Then a brilliant season. Bit of a potential title tilt. Idiots like me at Christmas saying, are they in a title race?

12:35and now lost the first leg against Nottingham Forest lost this game fans we're talking about fan reaction things and I'll bring it back to Tottenham in a second but Villa Park the camera was panning all around they were furious at this performance there was no sense of like oh we get it lads we get it you know you're focused on Thursday let's win the Europa League the Villa fans were furious and rightly so is this just the limitations of Aston Villa's inability to spend some of the money they've got because of financial rules Gregor to bolster that squad is this naivety on the part of Unai Emery.

13:08Where do we think we're at with this kind of villa and this tailing off towards the end of a season, which could have been top five, top four and a Europa League win? And it could still be, I should say. Yeah, it's always, it's felt like it's in the balance for a long time. There was a period where it looked like they might follow up the Champions League places even and then they really looked like they cemented it and now it's like, oh, it's still a bit of a question mark. I think it's six points ahead of Bournemouth. but I don't blame him for making the changes like this is the biggest game in decades really for Aston Villa on Thursday night and it wasn't much in the first leg Forest were the better team but weren't that much in that game and I know you'll laugh at me for saying this whenever they don't have John McGinn they're not the same team like they're not they're not he's like the more I see them without John McGinn the more I agree he's like the the like tempo setter he's even look at the win percentage with him without him It's a huge difference.

14:02So he had a bit of a hamstring tightness, so that's why he wasn't involved in this one. I think John McGinn could have said, I've got a slightly itchy ear and he would have been resting for the semi-final. But even players like Morgan Rodgers as well, so hyped and so distrustful to discuss this season, just suddenly looks lost. He's trying the same tricks and not getting anywhere with them. I mean, it all feels like it's coming to this point. So, you know, John McGinn with his tight hamstrings comes back in on Thursday night to rescue everything. I mean... I was at the Sunderland game a few weeks back.

14:31That kind of perhaps was like their season in a microcosm. They were brilliant for large periods of that game, like for almost all of it. And then they had that kind of minute of madness. Could have lost 4-3. Yeah, it was wild. But they're still great to watch. As I say, the way they play through the middle of the pitch is really hard to stop. And when they're on it and when they've got their full strength team out, it's still eminently possible that they swap Forrest aside on Thursday. That's totally possible. I think when you come back to the fan like the atmosphere it didn't feel like it was quite as you say when you look at you survey their season and what's still possible it felt like a bit overboard but they've only taken 19 points from 16 games in 2026 it's not been it's been a kind of a stumble over the finish line and that is that does speak to all the things you referenced about really who they're up against and not being able to spend spend the money that they actually have which you know Martin Samuel's spoken about a lot Hamza?

15:29Villa's story is quite complicated when you look at the whole season because like you said the start was very poor and you've got what you see with your eyes and then you've got the statistical story the underlying figures behind it I remember looking at their figures and going they aren't that bad as they're showing at the start of the season. As in the stats show they weren't that bad Of course because they didn't score a goal for a while. So you go they're not that bad and then you watch and you think they look pretty bad and so you've got this little tension between what you see with your eyes the results and then the statistics but you think actually it's probably somewhere in the middle they're not as bad as it that they look um and that proved to be true when they improved and then you started watching them and you're thinking they're not as good as they're showing right and that's when they had their title charge and you looked at for example their expected goal difference uh and just the general quality of their playing matches go they are a very good team but they're not quite title level well that was when that was when morgan radgers was banging in 25 yards yeah you were telling me tom calm down he's not going to keep doing that for the rest of the season.

16:24You've had an underperformance, a no performance, then probably a bit of regression. And then within that as well, you've got loads of different storylines like John McGinn's injury, but also like Morgan Rodgers. Again, you look at the start of the season, I went to the final match away and Rodgers was awful, as in really bad, as in he just wasn't doing simple things. He would lose a ball, he would turn it over, he would commit a foul, he'd get booked. And you're thinking, where's the guy I saw last season? And, you know, Emery said, I'm going to persist with him. I know that he's not playing well, but I'm going to back him.

17:00And he's going to play himself back into form. And then he did. And then he was brilliant. And now he's having a bit of a lull again. This is normal for most players, especially young players. He's not that young anymore, but as in to have a poor start and a good period and then a slightly poorer one. So, yeah, you can see this when you look at the underlying figures because you see all those goals that he's scoring. Oh, has he just broken expected goals with his long shots? The answer is no. he's very good at taking shots right and better than most other players should we be concerned at all about him with England in mind you know you talk about those peaks and troughs I would be I mean so like some players have always timed their peaks perfectly with England the best example of that is Jordan Pickford it doesn't matter what sort of season he has he always performs really well for England in tournaments and again you can look at for example how he performs relative to expected goals on target he just performs very well for England yeah when you look at Morgan Rodgers the way that he's playing now it's close to what he was playing at the start of the season and that wasn't very good at all.

17:57And if you look at the depth options at number 10 for England, you're a little bit worried because Cole Palmer isn't playing very well. Phil Ferdinand isn't playing at all. Jude, however, is fresh. And Morgan Gibbs-White. Exactly. Come on. The bandwagon. Everyone get on board. I can see it now. It's going to start that first game for England. I'll be proved right about something. But what about the psychology of going, you know Emery going to his local supermarket getting all the eggs and putting them in one basket which is what he's done and I get that maybe the fans should have thought about that a little bit but how does that work with Forrest I think you can make that work to your advantage knowing that your opposition you can say you know hey lads they're really scared, they're really terrified look at how appallingly look at a lack of effort put in in the in the league game prior to our second leg, they are running scared.

18:55I don't think it's a good idea to let your opponent, who's a goal up in a semi-final, know that you are prepared to put in an utterly abject performance in the previous game. Yeah, we should say in light of Montworgan-Gims-White and Nottingham Forest that we're recording this show before their game against Chelsea. So who knows, maybe Cole Palmer will score a hat-trick, Hamza, and everything will be fine when it comes to the England number 10 position. But Gregor, just to answer Alison's point back on that, you're going to the second leg. you covered the first leg we're going to talk in this show about the European matches to come this week how would you see it now with Villa because I was watching this going this is completely backfired because now they've rested it's shown that the lads that are coming off the bench if they need a goal look like they can barely control a ball and the fans are now will Villa Park be like right up for it or a bit nervous now all of a sudden I think it'll still be right up for it Villa Park probably more than any other stadium in the Premier League try to put on a show before they came there's the fireworks and the big flames and you know ridiculously you know high tempo music and all that kind of stuff in Europe they've been big kind of banners there'll be a great atmosphere no doubt about that and Villa I'm sure Villa will respond to that there was very as I said there was very little in the first game like it's one of those games we realised like we talk about the tumult at Tottenham it's been the same at Nottingham Forest and it's really a nonsense that that group of players are in a relegation battle that's what you came away thinking you saw Gibbs White and Anderson doing flicks and tricks towards the end of the game down the left channel the Anderson nutmeg on Morgan Rodgers as well which did the rounds so it was a kind of marginal penalty call that was the only thing that separates the teams but I think it's poised beautifully into the next leg very exciting indeed in terms of things that are poised beautifully let's come back to the relegation battle maybe not beautiful for Tottenham and West Ham fans.

20:48But just, we talked about some themes about the kind of confidence. And I wondered whether, because all Tottenham fans, you know, I've mentioned Glenn, who's one of our senior production journalists. He's the kind of good barometer, the Glenn-ometer, I call it, for kind of where Spurs are at in terms of mood. He was excited before this game. I was chatting to him because West Ham had lost. So it's that thing of where, and a few of them had been chatting saying, oh, it's a bit of a nightmare. West Ham played before us every time. Actually, West Ham went and got spanked by Brentford and actually Tottenham went, hey hang on a minute crikey we've had listener Chris get in touch as well he's a long-suffering Spurs fan but he did point out quite rightly well done Chris that he had said to me in January that they should point Roberto De Zerbi because he'd think he'd be the perfect man to get them out of this relegation battle so it looks good now but even he's showing what a couple of wins can do he said Tom I predict one more win against Leeds at home and we'll be safe West Ham will lose to Arsenal we'll beat Leeds and we'll be four points clear with two games left jobs are good it's a remarkable thing isn't it this season the way things can seesaw.

21:47So coming back to it and saying to bring in West Ham as well, was this defeat against Brentford a reminder that maybe Tom Allnott last week saying, well guys, I don't think West Ham are quite as good as you think they are. Few fine margin wins. West Ham played well though. I would argue, I would argue West Ham's performance against an excellent, consistent Brentford was better than Tottenham's performance against an absolutely abject Brighton. That, Aston Villa. That is quite, quite a take, Alison Ruddy. even by your standards. Because I'd say a lot of West Ham fans, regardless of how well their performance, points win prizes at this stage of the season, isn't it?

22:23I mean, like Brentford, yes, they're brilliant. We're going to talk about Keith Andrews in just a second. But how are we looking at it overall? Like Gregor, you've been saying for quite a few months now that you're worried about Tottenham. Yeah, no, I... Have you turned? I thought this was a... Was this enough to make a turn? When you look at the fixtures now, absolutely. They've got Arsenal at the London Stadium next. And I think that's a very tough one for Arsenal. Yeah. They've been really good at the London Stadium since the turn of the year. But that's in the same weekend that Spurs host Leeds and Leeds are safe.

22:54You know, when you look at the fixtures, that looks ominous. They've got Newcastle away. Newcastle back to winning form this weekend with a good win. There's Brighton. Eddie Howe really needed that. I just think this was a weekend where you were reminded of West Ham's three alties. And one of them was left back. Malik Jouf is not a good enough defender for the Premier League. You saw his cross against Everton for the winner last weekend. You saw that's what he's good at. He's good at going forward. He's got a great delivery of his left foot. But two goals in this game were a result of either his bad positioning or just reckless defending and giving away a penalty.

23:31So those are the sort of, it's on a bit of a knife edge. West Ham have been really compact and great kind of unity about their team. and they've been just solid with offering a platform for Bowen and Somerville to break. Fernandes has been great and Castellanos has provided a focal point. So they've looked like a team. They look like they know what they are, I think. But these are individual errors by a player who they have to rely on. Who else is going to play? Ollie Scarls is like a kid from the academy. You could play Walker Peters there and put Wan-Bissaka, but you saw Wan-Bissaka came on and looked so uninterested for the third goal.

24:09It was embarrassing. so fullbacks have been a bit of an issue for West Ham this season and there's nothing they can do about it but Alison still hope from you if you're a West Ham fan because I've had a few get in touch with me saying oh no it's all over now all of a sudden you still think I obviously understand why you're thinking they would be thinking that but I if you trust that Nuno has anything about him I think he can ironically he can build on that defeat because they they made they made chances and they still Three or four teams. Exactly. I mean, these are fine margins. And it wasn't like I would be less optimistic if I felt the pressure had suddenly got to them, if that was the reason, or it's just becoming too tense.

24:53I think they came up against a good team, got unlucky, individual errors, but the cohesion, the team spirit is still there. And Nuno just has to make sure that they can tap into that for the final few games. So I wouldn't say it's hopeless, although obviously once you've dropped back into the bottom three, it's hard to tell someone to feel good about themselves. Yeah, really interesting. I'm sure there might be some twists and turns to come. Let's talk about Keith Andrews and Brentford, though, the subject of Tony Cascarino's column in the game this morning, saying that he's got a good case for being manager of the season.

25:28And I'm not sure our pal Tone's far wrong, is he? Obviously, if Pep Guardiola or Mikel Arteta take their teams to the title, they will probably be the manager of the season. That is often the case. but in this season of the kind of the mid-table battle and we have an amazing battle on our hands for the Europa League spot, it must be said. Potentially a Champions League spot. And potentially a Champions League spot. We've got loads of candidates for manager of the season. So I wanted to use kind of Keith Andrews as the starting point for a discussion around alternative candidates for manager of the season.

25:58But where would we stand with Keith Andrews? Well, I actually did spend the whole weekend boring people saying he's manager of the season. Right. He's manager of the season. Did you tell Tony Cascarino? Is that why he wrote it? I like to argue against whatever you're putting out there. No, surely not. But I do. But I have spent the whole weekend saying it's Keith Andrews. It's Keith Andrews. Why so? Because on every metric, so exceeding expectations. Yeah, that's surely the biggest one. That's the biggest one. We all thought he was getting sacked and they'd get relegated. Well, I didn't think that, but I did think he's an emergency appointment.

26:38They didn't get who they wanted. Spurs stole all those coaching staff. He's applied for other jobs and not got them. You know, he's seen as a brand new set piece coach and a bit of a pundit. I mean, and yet he goes in and... They lost all their best players as well. I haven't started the list. And, you know, he's not Thomas Frank, who is synonymous with the club and got them to where they were and gave them stability. Brian Mbumo, I gushed and gushed about him. What a great player. Gone. Wisser, a really good striker. Gone. Norgard, gone. That was a good deal. Four block for Brentford. Well, we haven't seen him, of course.

27:25Anyway, but you think, oh, he's been dealt. he knows he's not first choice or second choice or third choice. He's been dealt a really bad hand with players lost. The noise outside the club is one of maybe, you know, I mean, in the report in the game today, even on the big screen, they're playing out. Pundits saying they're going to go down. Oh, Brentford are going to be in big trouble this season. They're so enjoying it. And rightly so as well. And on top of all that, I think a lot of people think they're more attractive to watch than they were. They haven't got to this position of slim possibility of Champions League football by just digging in and being hard to beat.

28:12They're fun. They're fun to watch. All those factors, I think, probably, if they make Conference League or above, he's manager of the season. Gregor, you interviewed him at the very start of the season and then they went and lost, I think, 4-0, was it, to Nottingham Forest? 3-1. It could have been 4 or 5-0. But a bad performance where everyone was going, oh, craggy. Yeah, first game didn't look like the players were responding. Yeah, it was a bad start. But it didn't last long. They won an ugly game. The thing I like about Keith Andrews is that he's actually, although he's at this ultra-modern football club where he's so progressive, he's old school.

28:52He talks about edge. he talks about the ugly side of the game like doing the basics all these things that are like you'd hear managers talking about 20 years ago and he still thinks that that's the most important thing and I remember after that Villa game he's like I loved that because it was ugly we won it we just ground it out we won ugly and sometimes that's a good thing to do in football and you know he's had a really fascinating sort of career path so you think about starting off at Wolves kind of briefly captain of the team at like 21 then he was ended up I played against him when he was at MK Dons in League 2 and then because Paul Wins got the move to Blackburn he kind of got got a move up the ladder really successful career in the Premier League played for Ireland like and then again interesting sort of from a pundit to a coach with Ireland's Ireland's sort of underage teams then bit with MK Dons bit with Sheffield United but always just in the background and so it was a remarkable I was at this opening and he's unveiling his first press conference too.

29:55Just the confidence with him sitting at the top table, like, feeling so many questions about all the things we've just discussed and outlined and saying, you know, this is, I've got faith in the players. And he's just, he's maintained that line all the way through. I've got faith in the players. He even went further. He said, I don't think they know how good they can be. And we've seen it. Absolutely proved it. Hamza, either on Keith Andrews or one of your other candidates that you think Scott Schaub? Both have made very good cases for Keith Andrews. I'd like to present Iriola. He has had a very, very good season.

30:31Just looking at their raw points, how they've played, then you consider the players that they've lost. Hausson, they lost Semenyu in the season as well. So he was putting in a player of the season level performance and then they lost him. And the way that he's integrated young players in, Kruppi, Ryan, has been outstanding. they're so fun to watch they are relentless I was there not too long ago when actually it was a little while ago when they lost when they beat Liverpool 3-2 and the way that they continue to push and push and push even to the 95th minute is remarkable and that will be a bit of a difficult match for City but I think as well you can look at the expected points table funnily enough Brentford are actually 6th in that and Bournemouth are 7th so yeah Those two teams, I think the managers both deserve enormous credit.

31:24And the key thing is, in a season where not a lot of the football has been really good, I've enjoyed watching Brentford. And when I say I, I think most people will have enjoyed watching Brentford and they would have enjoyed watching Bournemouth because they try and get the ball in play. They try and get it going. Yes, in big matches, they'll slow it down. But they try to provoke the other team into playing as well. They do things that change the impetus in the match. They have exciting players. They're good at the spectacle. Absolutely. Football is entertainment, right? I get that teams want to win, there are different ways to win, and cool, whatever, but it's really nice to be able to say, I enjoyed that football match, or as a football fan, or as a support of these two teams, I can't wait until Saturday when I watch them play again.

32:06You see some of the best long passing in the Premier League at Brentford's games. That is such a niche award, I love it so much. The best long passing. Some of the Jordan Henderson's little, they insert a diagonal balls, or the balls up to Thiago who brings someone to play and then turns again. They are, from back to front, one of the quickest teams to get the ball forward like that. And that's not just playing direct and humping it forward. It's intelligent runs and really good long passing. And I think they've evolved a bit over the season as well. They started off quite kind of, they were just like they're turning up the notch on the Thomas Frank sort of playbook.

32:40But now I do think they start to play a bit more expansively and play through the thirds. And they always have that in their locker. The other thing about Brentford is like every week you think, oh, I've just seen their player of the season. and then it changes the week after. There's always someone who stars every week. Yeah, I'd like to make a joint. Sorry, go on, Hamza, you go. They're also, for a team that innovates so much in the set-piece space that they're not the set-piece team, they show so much beyond that as well. Very good. They do things which, so like the long throws are really interesting.

33:07There's a study that Michael Cayley did. He's a football writer in the US a few weeks ago and he noticed how Brentford were the innovators with the long throw. So that, well, Stoke did it, right? But what they didn't quite realise is, well, what they did wrong was they were throwing it into the box and trying to get headers from that to score. So they were really effective at putting the ball in the box, but didn't score that many goals from it. Blackburn tried it as well. But what Brentford realised is that you want to play for the flick-ons. And once you play for the flick-ons, that changes the total dynamic of the usefulness of the throwing as an attacking set piece.

33:43and for example roughly 10 % of long throws lead to some sort of shot and it'll be a sort of like a chaotic sort of shot at the end. These don't tend to be very good chances but you get loads of them and this is what they're very good. Well first of all they're very good at getting the flick on. Second of all they're very good at playing on the chaos and third when the ball spills out they then create shots from that and whilst like I said those shots at the end aren't super high quality compared to the flick on you get loads of shots and they turn those opportunities into goals. And it's really interesting to see how a team takes something very simple like a throw-in and evolves it and thinks about it innovatively and pushes around how people imagine and conceive of set pieces.

34:24And then they go, OK, we can do that. That's great. But we want to play football too. And that's a key thing. They still try and attack. They give the fans something to be proud of and to entertain. I think it's a really cool way and smart way of playing football. Absolutely, quite rightly, a lot of praise for Andoni Iriola and Keith Andrews. I'd love to make a quick shout for a potential joint award for Daniel Farker and Regis Labris. When you think about all the conversations that we've had last season at this time, this stage, guys, in the last two seasons, we weren't even mentioning the relegation fight.

34:56It was all done. It was finished. Teams that have come up, bless them, they can't compete. They're going back down again. Sunderland in the first half of the season, Leeds in the second half of the season. A wonderful, wonderful story for both of them to both stay in the Premier League. if they finish anywhere. They're not just surviving either. They're not just about scraping it. A fantastic achievement for both of those sides. And I'd like to see them both up there. You know, a little joint award for manager of the season. If you've got shouts for alternative managers of the season, you can get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk.

35:28It's time for a little break. Loads more still to discuss in the second half of the show. I've got a good quiz question for you today. This is a cracker. Conor Gallagher became the fifth player to score for both Chelsea and Tottenham Hotspur in the Premier League. Who are the other four? Find out after the break.

35:54We have launched Apparition Epic Fury. Stop being a proper country. When everyone says they're right, who do you believe? None of us knew the depth of that relationship. If the lines are blurred, can you read between them? of the relationship. When the story breaks, who brings perspective? If you want to understand the issues that define our times, it starts with listening. Times Radio, on your smart speaker, on digital radio or the Times Radio app.

36:31Welcome back to The Game, football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Hamza Khalid Luna, Alison Rudd and Gregor Robertson here and they are all completely stumped listeners and viewers for the first time this season I thought this was a cracking question I did test it on Nick Godden my colleague on the desk who is a Tottenham fan and it did take him a while do you want any of them to get you going first one to get you going Gus Poirier come on that's gone back isn't it you should have got that one and I'd say there's another quite easy one recently a forward that I would say neither of the sets of fans would think of fondly Timo Werner Timo Werner well done Gregor a defender classic he also played for Arsenal Gallas William Gallas and a striker more synonymous with Chelsea who I forgot had a loan spell at Tottenham very short loan spell at Tottenham I imagine you'd like him as a player Alison your kind of player got Nordic vibes Scammer you know North North North Pole vibes Ida Goodjonsson Did he have a loan?

37:34Yeah, he had a little loan spell. I did not remember that. Is that from Bill's Quiz? That's a tough one. No, it's from the Optifact sheet because I knew you started reading Bill's Quiz before we come on here. You rumbled me. Yes. Anyway, we should move on, but we're going to... What's the shirt today, Tom? This is Lincoln City 2003-04. That's good that I'm still fitting in an 2003-04 shirt, isn't it? You are. I was 15, 14, 14. Looks like he's had a few washes to be fair. Yeah, it has. It's quite tight. They're getting progressively tighter, but we are going to make it to the end of the season, Greg.

38:03and thank you for bringing in the Mighty Ems. 103 points, I should say. 103. I'll try not to mention them too much because we've got loads of other things to discuss on the EFL show with me and Gregor later this week. Make sure you're checking it out. But you can go and look at my Lincoln City shirt and our lovely studio and check out what everyone else is wearing as well, if you like. And our strips. Our strips on the wall. Yeah, our strips on the wall as well. Hamza, you're actually quite up for everyone wearing a Lincoln kit, weren't you? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sure we're not. Hamza making a joke.

38:31Can I wear a Walsall one? You can wear a waltz or one. Why not? Yeah, why not? Everyone bring in a shirt for the end of the season. But yeah, go and check them out. We'll get Gregor to wear his Scotland jersey. Yeah. And then Alison to wear her Alison shirt from an interview with Alison. Exactly. Exactly. There's a nice little feature for you. Go and check us out on the Times YouTube account at Times Sport. Let's get back to the football and talk about Manchester United 3, Liverpool 2. Guys, I've got a very important announcement to make. The most significant thing from this game. No, it wasn't.

39:01you know, Liverpool in crisis again. No, it wasn't Manchester United getting in the Champions League places. It's some deserved praise for Matthias Cunha. I criticised him a little bit earlier in the season, dipped in form. He proved me wrong, often wrong on this show. But he's brought, I've realised, he's brought back individual celebrations, everybody. The knee slides are out. Everyone's surfing. Even yesterday, he mimicking Benjamin Sesco with a perfectly timed jump. They jumped in unison. Is that like a slam dunk because he's a basketball player? They jumped in unison, everybody. Get on. Look at that.

39:36Look at that. They jumped in unison. Look how happy Mateus is. Look at him. Oh, it's so wonderful. No knee slides into the corners. Although Kobe may know that a knee slide. Yeah, that's fine. He's had a big week. He signed a new contract. He didn't expect it. He nearly got taken out by Dominic Subozlai. That's fine. We'll let him off. But Mateus Cugno, thank you so much for bringing back the individual. It's a good one. It's a happy vibe. It's that happy five celebration. Exactly. Anyway, loads to discuss and significance, far greater than celebrations from this game. A big win for Manchester United, Gregor, a worrying defeat for Liverpool.

40:11They were let back into this game, Liverpool, weren't they, by two absolute howlers from Manchester United. And suddenly you're going, actually, this Manchester United side aren't quite as good as everyone's saying they are. But they got the win. Champions League football, regardless of whatever kind of, you know, background context, that is a very good achievement for Michael Carrick in Manchester United. It's a great achievement considering the sort of atmosphere when he took over from Ruben Amirim and people like us sort of saying how's he got the job or you know out of everyone that was kind of the possibility is there was him or Oli it's kind of another step back into the past that sort of thing.

40:48But you can see a future with Michael Carrick and that in itself is an achievement. And I thought they were brilliant in the first half. I thought Man Utd were brilliant and Liverpool were really poor. It's a bit similar vibes to the Tottenham Villa game. The thing is, I don't think it made you, the start of the second half made you sort of think, oh, actually how good are they? I think it just made you realise you can't quite trust them yet. Just don't trust Manchester United to dominate for a full 90 minutes or to kind of... Because you were watching that first half and thinking, cool, this could be 4-0.

41:21Yeah, they often do this and then they find the late winner. How many times have they had to find the late winner? but often it's kind of been a self-inflicted wound in the first place. So having said all that, Manchester United are a different animal now. And Bill Edgar's a really fascinating point in his column this morning that actually they're sort of expecting goal difference is worse than Rupert Amarim's under Michael Carrick, which doesn't pass the eye test. Which is a point Hamza, I remember making on a show earlier in the season, that Amarim's data, the underlying data, suggested that they were doing OK.

41:56They were starting to show something, but it went on too long, probably. Yeah, but that may well be true, but I think when you look at the team, you see a happier team. You see people playing in positions that they are much happier playing in and they'll get the best from themselves. And again, Bruno was outstanding. He's making a real claim for Player of the Year. It's more than a real claim, isn't it? Give him the trophy. I think he might win it. He's got to win it, hasn't he? I think he might. We talked about it a few months ago, maybe even. At that stage, I think I framed it as like, oh, he could be an outside shout for player of the season.

42:30I mean, with the way things have gone, there's a recency, isn't there, about these things as well in terms of the votes and how things are kind of accumulated. The kind of momentum behind Bruno Fernandes and Manchester United's season is such that it would be strange if it wasn't him, wouldn't it, now, in the way the season's gone? Well, I just don't see how anyone can overtake him because who is the outstanding Manchester City player? Who is the outstanding Arsenal player? I think people who feel very strongly that an Arsenal player should be player of the season, that vote will be split. And the same for Manchester City.

43:02There will be people who think, I know for sure who should be the Manchester City player of the season and others will feel the exact opposite. So the team that's going to finish third... With the one outstanding player, yeah. But who symbolises their rise from the ashes, is Bruno and his force of personality and his number of assists. And the way he's, you can't take your eyes off him when you're watching. And it's just in a season where all the votes will be split, he comes through. So even if you're like, I would imagine even if you're a big Arsenal fan in your heart and you're trying to decide who the player of the season is, even then you might vote for Bruno.

43:46So that's why he's going to... Arsenal fans get in touch with me. That's why he's going to... He's going to sack off Declan Rice and Gabrielle. Give it to Bruno. No, no. I mean the people who vote. Yes, absolutely. I'm talking about football writers. Football writers have teams they support. They don't always admit it, but they have teams they support or follow every week. So you would vote for Bruno Fernandes? I haven't voted yet. But you would? I've got a few hours. Okay. And the PFA vote occurs earlier this season as well. Yeah. He's someone who's just... He's been brilliant throughout the season, no matter how bad Man United have been.

44:16Yeah, that's the narrative, isn't it? He just drags them, doesn't he? You can see it. It's fantastic. And he's gone up a notch since he's been playing at number 10. Hamza? I'd probably go for it, yeah. Probably go Bruno. The thing with Bruno is, when Ruben Amaroum, I know this isn't about this season, but stories last longer than the nine months, don't they? When Ruben Amaroum came in, everyone said there's no room in a Ruben team for Bruno. And if you go from that starting point to what he is now, what he means to that team, I think is phenomenal. There's a fascinating trajectory as well in terms of season narratives with Kobi Maynou as well, of course, scoring the winner in this one three days after signing a new five-year contract at his boyhood club.

44:58Played an unbelievable amount under Michael Carrick. It's just been such a nakedly obvious, like, nah, Ruben was wrong. You're back in the team, son. It is amazing, isn't it? There was talk of him leaving in January. Do we think he goes to the World Cup? Hamza, thoughts on Kobi Maynou? I really like Kobi. I think this match actually showed why he's not a number eight though and I think if he's to play in the midfield he needs to be a bit further forward and with players around that can complement his best qualities and cover for his weaknesses his weaknesses just being the ability to cover big spaces now being alongside 34 or 35 year old Casemiro obviously doesn't help but if you look in the second half positionally I thought Manchester United were really poor this is why Liverpool came back into the match the spaces that they left it was just like watching Ten Hag United again the way that they were attacked for around 30 minutes by Liverpool given their 2-0 up it should have been super easy for them to just sit back and counter as they did so well in the first half they're really compact and that's where you got to see Mainu showing great qualities of just being able to quickly play and then release and then allow the forward guys to break forward and to be effective so in that context I think you've just got to caveat it slightly I think Manu is a fantastic player he just needs the right balance of players around him to make him work to his best level and when you have the wrong balance that can look a bit bad so you don't necessarily think I suggested World Cup there we're talking about Declan Rice and Elliot Anderson that's a great you know double pivot for England you don't think Kobi Manu necessarily slots in instead of one of those two players no because they are very specific roles that Thomas Tuchel has outlined about how they cover space, how they defend space.

46:46And if you just compare them to Mainou, they're very, very different players. If you wanted the player to say, OK, who's going to finish from the edge of the box at those three? Obviously, it's Mainou, right? We've seen him score two goals against Liverpool that were both outstanding. The one yesterday and the one in the FA Cup, I think, or maybe the two-all draw. But if you want someone to recover loose balls and track back and cover space, all those sort of things they're more of a defensive midfielder sort of brief I mean is there another thing I'm trying to bring in kind of World Cup squads and England and things throughout this is there a kind of player that you think then naturally is a backup to those Martin Samuel writing about the brilliance of Declan Rice and he of course is another candidate for player of the season but played an unbelievable amount of minutes as has Elliot Anderson is there a natural backup to those for those two no they are we're stuffed we're stuffed yeah I think if Anderson gets injured, which is quite likely just given the amount of minutes that he's played and he's likely to play.

47:44Don't say that, Hamza. Then you're a bit worried. And Declan Rice, as well as he played as number six for Arsenal the other day, we've also seen the limitations of him as a number six, specifically the way that he struggles to break lines centrally. So, yeah, if either of those two are injured, England are kind of stuffed. But we'll see. On the subject of Liverpool, Paul Joyce has written a really interesting piece on the Times website today talking about the kind of leaders and the kind of vibes around the team. In relation to Mo Salah's comments in an interview he gave on Friday evening, which is quite interesting when you watch this game.

48:19And it's maybe something that's not been thought about in the myriad of narratives and storylines that have enveloped Liverpool's season. But it's an interesting point, isn't it? When you think about these big characters leaving, not only has Robertson held down left-back spot solidly for a number of years, he's also a big character in the dressing room. Mo Salah has been superb as a right-sided forward. He's also a leader in the dressing room. There's an interesting thing here about Liverpool. Who do we think are their leaders? Or is that another part of this summer? Are they lacking them, Gregor?

48:50Yeah, I mean, Subozlai is the person you would go to first, I think. Would you agree? Van Dijk, obviously. Van Dijk, obviously. I'm not suggesting Virgil van Dijk is leaving, nor should he, but he's part of that kind of change, isn't he? but I know that is an issue and it was a really good piece because it does underline the fact that all the changes that have happened at Liverpool and that are going to happen Liverpool for so long mentality monsters was Jurgen Klopp's tagline and that underpinned everything that's what gave him the energy and the dynamism and all that kind of stuff was in their head.

49:37You know, you think about that game against Barcelona when they just trampled all over them and Andy Robertson ruffling Lionel Messi's hair and the Bronx. With a weakened team as well, that one as well, I think. Like, that was Liverpool at their best and now they look so far from that. They look like a team with the weight of the world on their shoulders and, like, we've spoken at length about all the reasons for that but when you think about how you get out of that you do look to leaders and players with experience and, like, this is a common thread throughout the season. You talk about, we speak about it so often with Chelsea and there's a reason we speak about it.

50:10Sometimes people think you're a dinosaur for talking about these things but they're important traits in a changing room. It's about the chemistry and the culture as Paul Joyce sort of outlined there and you don't really see it. You don't see it with any of the new signings. I think Isak will be a big character for Liverpool going forward. Will he? No, sorry. Eketiki, I think Eketiki will be a big character going forward. really once he gets back from a very long injury yeah Verts doesn't really look like that kind of I don't know maybe it's harsh to say it's been a difficult season McAllister looks a shadow of the player and like and then there's a lot of youth and a lot of unproven people isn't there I mean Alison what do you think I mean Greg has kind of outlined the central focus of Paul Joyce's piece you know did you agree with it are you looking at this Liverpool team and going as well as ability playing or gelling there's an issue mentally and culture-wise here as well.

51:05Absolutely. He was spot on. And I think if you haven't got the players to do it, you look to the manager. Arne Slott doesn't seem to have that element to his repertoire to fill that void. If you're a fan of a team, it's easy to over-romanticise. I accept this and I hope Hamza will back me up. But the history, the modern history of Liverpool Football Club is to have managers who have an emotional connection to the club. And when they haven't, it's gone badly wrong. But, you know, it was either the bootroom philosophy or just someone like Klopp who you felt like he became a scouser after six weeks.

51:46You know, you either forge that connection or you don't. And it's a demand. Like you mentioned Chelsea there, Gregor. they're a good contrast because I think Chelsea fans demand only of their manager that they win. They don't demand a particular personality or connection to West London. It's not there. It doesn't matter. They want the best. Someone who's ruthless and can deliver. Liverpool fans want someone who understands them, understands the city, understands the culture, understands the history of the club. And when they've had someone like that, there's been a success story. Yeah. But with Arnie Slaughter, just because of his demeanour and the way he behaves and it being a difficult season, I just think he's just lacking the umph factor to knit together a team that are slowly disintegrating.

52:41If there is one leader that we probably missed out or one player that shows attitude and resilience and fire, it's probably Curtis Jones. But he appears to probably be on his way out. He was linked and quite close to moving into Milan in January. And I think Gregor will know this. Once you get that little seed in your head of, oh, what's it like to live in a different country? Oh, my wife would like to move there as well. We have a child. And you think about, okay, Milan's not too bad. Bologna's not too far away. Yeah, I remember when Milan... To be clear, Gregor never went to Milan. I get there first.

53:16I was like, when did I get in with the gag? Sorry. that will start to break away those long-term familial and cultural relationships that you have even with a club that you've grown up at right it's also been used really badly this season that's the key thing right if you don't feel valued if you're not playing and when you do play you play very well then you probably are going to look to leave because you need that for your career you have to be very cold and business-like about it you need to play you need to get in well if you want to get the English set up as well which he does I think in yesterday's match he showed a lot of character I thought he showed a lot of quality he's put in very very difficult positions he's playing it right back and yet he passed through pressure and dribbled through pressure really really well his positional sense was really good he tackled well there was the tackle he made on Seska even though it was offside where he got across very well there was a lot of quality there and if you look through a number of matches this season I think Inter Milan away is another really good example of that he's played well and then just doesn't quite I don't think he has a favour of slots, in which case you have to look away.

54:20But he has enormous quality as a leader and as one of the few, well, as their scouter in the team, right? He knows the club inside out. He's from that. Yeah, he's got that connection that Alison talks about. Yeah, a really interesting and difficult period continues for Liverpool this season. Let's finish, guys, with a look at Arsenal's win against Fulham on Saturday. The reason I'm finishing with it, of course, is we're recording this show on Monday before Manchester City against Everton. Anyone think Everton might get something from this? As much as I have full faith in David Moyes, I don't see it personally, but I could be proved wrong later.

54:55Anyone? No. No. Well, the reason I'm asking is to how we then couch this discussion around Arsenal, because it's a big week for them. There could be the case that this time next weekend they're in a Champions League final and that Manchester City might have dropped some points along the way. But they are back at the top of the table, six-point player. And Alison, you were there. I thought that first half performance, we've talked about bad first half performances a lot on this show. That, I'm assuming you would agree, was an exceptionally good first half performance. It was exceptionally good.

55:23And what a contrast to how we started the show, because what a difference. I mean, I think some people were expecting a cautious, let's conserve our energy type of performance because of the facing Atletico midweek. But no, Arteta decided the best way to face European competition is to go in with momentum and playing good, expansive, confident, flair, energetic football. It was really interesting because before kickoff, there was a lot of, I called it, I mean, it wasn't that people were nervous. People weren't anything. It was like they would rather hibernate than watch it. They just didn't want to see it.

56:03They just wanted to wake up one day and for it to all be over and to have won something. Someone tell us we've won 2-0. Yeah, exactly. So that was before kick-off. But then as soon as the game began, there was a good atmosphere that only became better when they realised we're up for this, Saka's back to his best. And he plays with a smile on his face and he wants to play attractive football and he wants to go at players. So very early on, he had Raul Jimenez lying on his backside because he couldn't work out where he was going to jig to. And that set the tone. The caveat to that is that Fulham did have a virus in the camp.

56:45And I think a lot of players were drained from that or playing when they weren't expected to be playing. And, you know, Marcus Silva, to his credit, said, I do not want to use that as an excuse. But I think you have to mention it because we have bigged up Fulham on this podcast and they weren't them. They were. But I think even a good Fulham would have had a real problem with this afternoon. They were so direct and quick. So much, you know, far less ponderous as well. Connections, connections all over the pitch. Ben White and Saka. It looked like, oh, hang on, these guys have played together quite a few times, haven't they, down this right-hand side.

57:20They relaxed together. Goikarez and Saka had some nice moments together, some interplay. It was, it was, it played like a proper unit and I just, I thought the most impressive part of it was that on Tuesday night, they're going to be playing, as Arteta called it, the biggest game this stadium has ever seen. Given that, it could have had so much impact on their attitude or inhibited them in some way. I mean, he did make a few changes, Arteta, but the players that came in, that's Lewis Skelly playing in midfield. I mean, he did grow up as a midfielder. Yeah, but still hasn't been out of the team and there's been so much nervous reluctance and reliance on Zubimendi hasn't there for an artist it was his second start I think of the season and just start play twice third start and he's playing in a position that he's not been trusted in before albeit in his youth he did play in midfield and then was converted to full back but that's asking a lot his tenacity in the early moments sort of set the tone well Harrison Reid tried to really unruffle him because Harrison Reid was obviously someone who hadn't had the bug and they said go just show some energy because we're all sat and he just just grounded him.

58:34He's got a great kind of natural ability to sort of wriggle under a challenge. That's the right way to describe it. You know, he's like a little sort of barreling sort of, I don't know, he's got a funny, I don't know, a funny sort of physicality about him. I said this before, he's got a big bum. Yeah. You love a big bum. He loves a big bum. He's a really, really potent weapon in football. So he can buy fouls or he can get the ball on the half turn. Often when he, last season, you saw him stepping into midfield from left back and he would do that he would get it and he'd go on these little marauding runs that really got Arsenal up the pitch you know a lot of people the kind of narrative after this was oh it's taken him 76 senior matches for Arsenal in England before he's been given an opportunity in his natural position well okay it's certainly hard to get in midfield in this Arsenal team why have they not played at all at left back this season that's been a question for me I mean Califori's been injured a lot I think Capi is a centre half they're both really centre half he's more of an attacking fullback.

59:31I know he's not a real fullback but he's more of a weapon. I think he's more of a weapon going forward. I thought Calafiore was excellent in this game. I think this game was perhaps an example as to why he's gone for Calafiore and he was another big return. I wanted to finish Hamza by talking about Victor Jokerez who Alison mentioned there. Became only the second Arsenal player to score 20 plus goals. He's on 21 now in all competition in his debut season this century and the first since Alexis Sanchez more than 10 years ago. This guy is not good enough. having a bad season? You mentioned very briefly on last Thursday's show when discussing the Champions League that you think there's lots to like about Jokeres, but actually maybe not in an Arsenal team.

1:00:07Was this match maybe an example of them playing a bit more to his strengths or is it just that Fulham were poor? Where are we at with Jokeres in terms of this season and how he's done for Arsenal? A little bit. He also did things that he doesn't usually do. I don't mean this in a bad way, but he headed the ball. That's not been a strength of his throughout his career. He scored a header in this game. A good header as well. It's a really good header. It's an important point to think about when everyone says they should put more crosses in the box. He's hardly scored any headers and he's clear. I was at the Wolves match where they drew and I think they flung in Arsenal flung in something like 29 I put it in my report 29 crosses and he didn't attack one.

1:00:44He gets subbed off but Jesus comes on he attacks the first cross there's an own goal and they score. You're like God if you attack the ball come on Victor go for it. With Jokeres a lot of people talk about him very disparagingly there's a few things that he does really well right and there's a lot of things he doesn't do very well and largely Arsenal ask him to do those things he doesn't do very well a lot can you hold up can you bring other guys into play and there are moments where he does show it take the I think like the 8th minute against Atletico Madrid he had this fantastic run down the left he held the ball up then he broke then he squared it and I think I mean he did it for Saka's goal this weekend yeah so he can do a few of those things but the things that he does best It's running into space, attacking the six-yard box.

1:01:29I mean, the goal that he scored, the first one, I thought was a brilliantly worked set-piece routine. It doesn't intuitively feel like a set-piece, but you look at it. So Arsenal play the ball short. They work, I think, three or four passes. They stay in their set-piece shape because they've got the centre-backs up. Fulham are still in their set-piece defensive shape. And they identify Jimenez versus Saka as a match-up that they like because Jimenez is not a left-back and Saka is fantastic one-on-one. They work the ball to him. He skins him, puts him on his backside, gets the ball across and then squares for him.

1:02:03And that's the sort of thing that Mikel Arteta, when he first started at Arsenal, was thought about as the idea goal, the cutback. It's just that when you don't have Saka there, that changes that dynamic a bit. And those situations are a little bit harder to generate in normal open play because of how teams defend against Arsenal and how Arsenal build up and often put them into a load block in the first place. This, they worked them around, identified the one-on-one and exploited it and found the ball to him. So with Jokic, the key thing is understanding the context in which he plays in. Like I said, there's a few things that he's really good at and a lot that he's not very good at.

1:02:38But in this match, he got to do a few things that he is good at and he showed some things that you'd normally assume he's not very good at and did better, like heading. So yeah, there's improvement there. I wouldn't go as far as saying that he's been like a successful signing and I think you can tell that because Arsenal are still looking at United Alvarez. Even with the 20 goals. They're looking at Alvarez. But it is so funny, isn't it, that we said all season, they just need a 20-goal-a-season striker. The poor bloke has literally got 21 goals. He is a 20-goal-a-season striker. I think James Gibran and I did say this, but we did say on some podcast that Martin wasn't on because we're scared that he'd throttle us if we didn't.

1:03:13If we said they don't need a striker, you look at Havertz, right, and look what he brings to the team. He brings everything but goals, right? he's so good at bringing his teammates into play so good at finding space so good at especially long balls so beating the press if a team presses against you you can go long into him escape the press and play out as he showed amazingly against Manchester City right so he has all these qualities he's just not great in the box at scoring goals he doesn't get lots of shots Jokovic can get shots can get stuff well he hasn't for Arsenal this season that often but he showed previously that he can get shots so he can't get in the box but he doesn't have all the other stuff what I also need for the way that they play is a very specific striker which makes just getting a striker and the score some goals that is not a Martin Samuels impression by the way but that's just a random a random random person random football fan yeah a random football fan with a deep voice yeah it's a bit complicated yeah and I think that they're looking for another striker yeah evidence is the fact that they still don't think I'm still pleased for him though I'm still pleased for him because he can at least go, well, I did my bit.

1:04:23I've got 21 goals. Scoring goals in this game. I totally get what Hamza is saying. I actually don't think it is that complicated, though. I think, really, if they sign a slightly better striker, they'll be in a far better position. I know it's an odd scenario and an odd position that we're in where he's got into 20-plus goals in his first season when the weight of pressure on Arsenal's number nine after they waited so long to sign one with such that, you know, this was always going to be a challenge for them. You've got to say he's done pretty well. He's won hands over as well. But he's not good enough.

1:05:02Yeah. He's not good enough. He's not good enough in all-round play as Arsenal striker. He looks out of place. And like, yeah, if... I'm not going to go down the track of saying he's a flat-track bully. He has scored a lot of his goals against lesser teams. I think Arsenal will still look for an upgrade what I would say quickly is that I think they should stop focusing on trying to get a strike and play to them and just realise and celebrate how good Saka is and just play to him instead he comes in the team and he is he wins the game in 45 minutes and then just trots off he's unbelievably good just stop playing to the striker and just let him get in the box and shoot more and you'll have a superstar talent performing at a superstar level and you don't really need another big money striker to do that because they probably will take away from his qualities.

1:05:49Very quickly then, a final... The bombshell news is that Goikarais is not going to win Player of the Season. No, he's not getting anyone's vote. Poor Victor. Just a final thing then on looking ahead to the Champions League semi-finals. You see Bayern did it again, by the way. 2-0 down and then did the ultimate flex half-time substitution from Vincent Kompany. Brought on Kimmich, Alise, Diaz and Kane all on at the same time. I mean, that is a serious flex. 3-0 in that game at the weekend. We're very excited about Bayern PSG. But Arsenal-Atletico, Arsenal into the final, yes or no? Hamza? Probably, yeah.

1:06:17Yeah. Yeah, fine. Victor, you might not be there, but you'll be a Champions League finalist by the end of the week. We'll leave it there. Hamza Khalid, Luna, Alison Rudd and Gregor Robertson, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you two for listening and for watching. We'll be back with The Regular Show on Thursday. See you then.

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