Alonso and Carrick in; will Slot or Pep be leaving?

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0:37Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Xabi Alonso will manage in the Premier League next season, but not where many expected, as the former Liverpool man takes on the challenging task of being in charge at Chelsea. On today's show, we'll discuss the latest managerial movements as Michael Carrick closes in on the Manchester United job. Arna Slott remains under pressure at Liverpool and Pep Guardiola keeps everybody guessing. We'll also discuss Celtic's last gasp glory against Hearts, debate the FA Cup final and latest Premier League action, nominate our underrated players this season and delve into the mad world of Neymar, one of football's great enigmas.

1:14I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today, we have the football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Chelsea. It's Peter Rutzler. The Times columnist, James Geerbrandt and the former footballer, turned journalist, Gregor Robinson is with me as usual. Team, welcome Pete and James to the new studio. You're happy, excited with your numbers, seven and eleven down the wings I thought for both of you one of you cutting inside one of you hurtling at full backs feel like it's the perfect perfect combination of wide play would you say yeah bit of pace bit of creativity maybe yeah me overlapping as well of course as if you've got the legs to open with all your injuries you always bang down on the show you'll be staying firmly on the halfway line on the halfway and let's move on indeed because we've got to be tracking back exactly got loads and loads and loads to discuss um so we're going to start with a rather bizarre question and ask Peter Rutzler, who was at Wembley for the FA Cup final, to sum up the action that he saw on the pitch in about 60 seconds, because there's far too much off the pitch to discuss.

2:08I'm not wrong in kind of framing it like that, am I, Pete? I watched this game. It wasn't any more exciting in the stadium, was it? No, not really. Great goal. The kind of goal you'd want to decide a Cup final. Brilliant finish from Antoine Semenyo, who I actually thought was having the best game beforehand, because there were a couple of times I think he took a shot that went out for a throw in and he had a good chance ahead of the back post, but then produced that moment of magic that you want to decide a game. The rest of it, it was functional, tight. I mean, Chelsea would have been happy with the way it was going.

2:41I mean, they didn't create very much. They weren't great in their build up. Were Chelsea playing for that kind of game? Were they going to kind of kill the first half? A little bit. Playing for the last 20 minutes? Was it one of those where... I think they were trying to avoid getting caught out and making mistakes. It felt quite safe. I mean, the setup was safe. It was about five. Sanchez was going long with every kick. They just weren't holding it up. They weren't really moving the ball forward. It was only after half-time where they started to build some momentum, which was actually when Pep changed it because City, while they dominated the ball, they didn't create a lot.

3:11So they threw on Scherke. Scherke didn't really have the impact initially that I think would have been hoped. It was just as Chelsea were building momentum that Semenya scored. So, yeah, that's it. Yeah, a fitting finale for Semenya in a way, Gregor, because we talk about Bruno Fernandes a lot, player of the season. We're going to talk in the second half of the show about underrated players. But I mean, in terms of signings of the season, he's right up there, isn't he? I can't think of many others that can compete with him, even though he only joined in January. Yeah, I mean, Martin Samuel referenced both him and Gehe in his match reports.

3:44They changed the course of City season, made them more solid at the back. And Gehe formed a really good relationship with Kusunov and Semeny offered a bit of magic and creativity and goals. He scored, you know, been consistent in front of goal. And that was a beautiful finish. Like it was, as much as it was a bit of a stinker of a game, it was a glorious finish. Just to kind of, to get enough momentum on the ball. It's a real flick in every sense of the word. Great goal. And it says as well about him as a player as well. I think a lot of people maybe when he signed thought, well, City have got quite a lot of attacking options.

4:17But he's been a guaranteed starter the whole time under Pep, hasn't he? Like playing big games. we've talked about it recently Gregor about Pep's basically picking the same front four a lot of the time he's in there the whole time. Absolutely yeah I mean the great competition in Cherokee as well sometimes it's been like they've got four number tens on the pitch as you say sometimes they play with real out and out wingers and he's been able to fulfill both roles sometimes he has been one of the more narrow sort of players playing in behind Haaland. Marmouche another one who kind of came He's come out from the cold and been sidelined partly by his arrival.

4:52So, yeah, he's been a brilliant impact and a brilliant story as well, considering his rise from depths of the pyramid right to one of the biggest clubs in the country, in the world. Yeah, a great story indeed. We're going to come back and talk about Pep Guardiola and Manchester City in just a second. But the story of the day, Pete, really pivoted towards Chelsea after they'd lost the FA Cup final. News being broken by you and your colleagues who cover the club that Jabby Alonso was all but done. It has now since been confirmed. Another remarkable moment in a remarkable season for me. I couldn't quite believe that it had been done so quickly that this is a guy who's gone from the chaos of Real Madrid to the chaos of Chelsea.

5:31This is a huge, huge call for both manager and club, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. I think the appointment of Alonso in many ways was needed for Chelsea, considering the chaos of this season. It was needed for the players in the squad in one respect. I mean, we talked about the players and criticised them in some detail. But we've also seen aspects of disillusionment, what Mark Cucure has come out and said. We've seen Anza Fernandes flirting with moves away. But also for the fan base as well. You know, there's a real sense of drift about the direction of this project four years in. And the fact that they have appointed Xavi Alonso not as a head coach, as a manager, that is deliberate.

6:16It marks a shift. It is a deviation. And we're not talking about the project being ripped up here and suddenly they're not going to keep buying younger players and everything else and the sporting directors are all going to go. That's not the idea here. But it is certainly a recognition that, particularly after Liam Rosseña's tenure, where someone without that experience, without that gravitas, wasn't able to take the club forward. as a recognition of the importance of that role, which has been limited. I mean, that's been one of the main discussions about the whole project. It's interesting that he's taken it because, as you say, he was burnt by Real Madrid.

6:56And we reported last week saying that he wanted assurances if he were to take the role. I mean, for Chelsea, he was the frontrunner, I think, of the ones they spoke to. Antonio Arreola, they really liked him, impressed by him. They contacted him. Marco Silva at Fulham they'd contacted. and there were a few others on the list, Oliver Glasner, Filippo Luiz. But Alonso was the one they wanted and the reason they wanted him was because he could turn the dial. But for Alonso, he's always been very careful in mapping out his coaching career, whether that would be Real Sociedad B, where he started his career.

7:29No spotlight really, able to finesse what his tactical philosophy would be, the things he would want to try. Picking by a Leverkusen, doing a fantastic job there. an unbeaten domestic title, getting rid of the Nevecusen tag. And then Real Madrid. And Real Madrid obviously was undone less by what happened on the field and more by politics, player power, that sort of thing. So for him to have been convinced for the role, I feel is particularly significant. Significant in what sense? Because what it says about the Chelsea hierarchy and the group, what they've said to him. Now, we talk about Chelsea, Yes, they've had a terrible season.

8:09There's a lot to work with here. And I think Alonso can see that. We're talking about a team that did. We talked about the Club World Cup final last year. How that was a turning point. That could have been a turning point that they didn't take advantage of. But there is a core there that can do that. There's a core that can beat some really big teams. We've seen them beat PSG. We've seen them play against Arsenal, outplay Barcelona. That is there. So he will see that and feel, if he can make the alterations, that he can take them forward. But yeah, I mean, for him, there's an element necessarily of not that much risk because if it goes wrong, you can always point to the hierarchy.

8:43That's true, yeah. But I think it's certainly, it'll be very interesting to see how he does, particularly how he adapts to the squad and going forward. James, you're nodding along with a lot of what Pete was saying, particularly about Jabby Alonso there. This is a fascinating choice from him, isn't it? You know, I mentioned it in my intro. So many people, Alison Rudd, our colleague being one of them, thinking that he was destined at some point for Liverpool. And hey, maybe he will be, but not yet. he's decided to pick a Premier League rival and probably one in a more challenging position, you would say.

9:11And I think from a sort of PR point of view, it's an absolutely huge coup for Chelsea. I mean, they must be delighted because I think for a lot of people, fairly or unfairly, they haven't quite been able to shake off the perception that the Chelsea project is fundamentally dumb. To be really honest, that's how a lot of people feel about it, that they don't really get football, but it's not an intelligently run football project. And to hire someone like Xabi Alonso, who not only masterminded one of the great seasons in club football at Leverkusen, but who's also kind of renowned throughout the game as a sort of intelligent, cerebral, principled, classy football figure.

10:02what an amazing front man to have for the project I mean He's very eloquently put James he's also cool isn't he? That's the thing He's really cool but you're right His reputation is massive and that makes a massive difference as I said for the squad but even just the fan base immediately like oh okay we can get behind this appointment this is the appointment that we would want and I think there's also a sense that by doing that it suggests learning now as I wrote in the game today the noises are positive it's encouraging but it's got to carry on and we've got to see how Alonso actually gets on and how does it work in practice?

10:36Speaking of not getting carried away, and James mentioned a lot of the people who've maybe suggested that this Chelsea project is dumb, let's bring in Gregor Robertson. I mean, the guys are right, aren't they, in terms of this appointment from a PR point of view, from Alonso's side, but this is a big test, isn't it, for him? Yeah, my fundamental question is whether one man can kind of oversee or enact the cultural reset that needs to happen at Chelsea. I don't know whether that's down to one manager. It's interesting you say that because I think a key thing for Chelsea in wanting Alonso beyond just the stature and what he's done before is this emphasis on culture.

11:14And we've actually, the last few couple of months... But does he get to set it? Can one manager... That's the whole point. Yeah. I'm not sure culture in football clubs necessarily originates from a manager nowadays. I think there are a lot of people around the football club and the environment who create the atmosphere and it comes from the top. And that's not changed. So Alonso will have heard everything he wants to hear. The proof is in the pudding. It'll take me a little while to be convinced that these guys have seen the error of their ways and are willing to back a manager and give him more autonomy.

11:50So you're not fooled by the title change? or the, is it a four-year deal, Pete? Is that right? Four-year deal, you know, much shorter deal than a lot of his squad players have got, you know, in terms of their contracts. Not fooled by any of that. Don't think that's irrelevant. Did Rosinia get a six? Six, yeah. Yeah, I don't think any of that's relevant. I think the manager title is PR. I'm sure he will have been told that he's going to have more autonomy and more sort of responsibility than some of his predecessors. Only time will tell with that. All I will say is that all the things that Xabi Alonso is good at, Maresco was good at.

12:34He might not have gone on to win a Bundesliga title and he might not have had the playing career, but Maresco is a very good coach. He was clearly well respected by all the players. He's a good tactician. He's great in big games, like one-off games, and he was undermined. He was undermined by the people above and around him. And all I'm saying is it will take some time for me to be convinced that that will not happen again and again in the future with the Chelsea project. James, I think you were going to jump in just then and I'll cut you off. Well, I suppose the thing with Alonso is there are some people who are so charismatic, who just have so much gravitas or whatever, they're standing in the game, that they just, even if they, you know, sit within a sort of, you know, a sort of a model where they're, you know, they don't have absolute power.

13:26They're just able to, you know, kind of, I guess, set the culture. I think it's a really, you know, it's a huge, huge contrast from some of the figures that have been tried, like Graham Potter and Leroy Rossini. You know, all due respect to them, you know, I think both good coaches. But I think a problem that they both had was that it seemed to be that it was hard for the players to relate to them. Because they didn't have that top playing background and they didn't have really any elite achievements in management to sort of really generate that sort of automatic authority. And obviously with Alonso, you have both boxes ticked, really.

14:13All I would say is that if you're talking about a dressing room where that is the case I think you've probably still got a problem Right, why so? Well, I think if it takes so little for a dressing room full of footballers to feel that we're not having him and to undermine the head coach you've got a problem in your dressing room and I don't think just plopping in someone who's a big figure in football either as a coach or a manager solves that overnight It might solve that problem but you still have a problem No, but I think the whole purpose of this is this, and this is what I was saying about, there has been this sort of recognition that they need better characters.

14:51I mean, we've talked about age and profile and whatever, and I've said it the whole time. It's not just about that. It's the kind of people you have in there. And you end up in scenarios like your painting there of a dressing room that, I mean, the nature of the performances, the complacency, the performances against Brighton and Nottingham Forest, that doesn't happen in a healthy, strong dressing room where there's accountability. So the idea for Alonso, he will have come in there and he will go in there and there will be this sense of needing to change. And in terms of not just necessarily signing, we're going to sign over 30s, but the right kind of characters that can change the direction of that club because that's been a key part of it.

15:29And also... And it was the same under Enzo Moresco. Part of Enzo Moresco's issues were the same in terms of the makeup of the squad. And also partly to James' point that I think is fair and we'd all agree with, I certainly do, is that Enzo Fernandez, Cole Palmer, all these players will at the very least look at this and go, OK, quite like to. Enzo Fernandes would presumably like to hear what Xabi Alonso might have to say about being a midfielder in modern football. Like, it might not completely change the culture, but surely it might make these raft of players who are going, this season was tough.

15:58I thought we were going to be challenging for the league. We're not going to be in the Champions League. Oh, Xabi Alonso? Yeah, I wouldn't mind. I'd give it a season under him. Would you say that's at least fair? Totally. But my only point is that that's still the character. inherent in those individuals. And that's one aspect of the way Chelsea is run at the moment.

16:21It's a great appointment from Chelsea's point of view. I just remain to be convinced about the future of the project as a whole. You're absolutely right on that one. There's a long way to go for Chelsea. But Pete, just to kind of wrap the Chelsea side of things up before we talk about some other big clubs and managerial situations. Is there a way of, has he got a priority number one or is it too big a question to answer. I gave you 60 seconds to talk about... The famous in-tray. The in-tray. What's item number one? The classic in-tray. What's item number one? Is there an item number one? I mean, we've talked about it, but he's been hired to build a culture.

16:53That's what appealed to Chelsea. That's the sort of recognition that what is going wrong, part of it. As Gregor says, there's more to that than just manager coming in and changing the players. To what extent they can make change in terms of personnel in the squad, that's to be seen. They're not in Europe next season. You know, my understanding is they'll make at least three additions in the summer. It'll be more about who is let go. He's got to work out the way he wants to play. You know, Leverkusen, his success was built on a back three. We've seen Chelsea use that in the last couple of games, which has been interesting.

17:27But he's not wedded to that. You know, he's at Real Madrid. He didn't stick with a back three all the time. At Real Sociedad, he started with a four. He should be quite pragmatic. Actually, stylistically, like a lot of modern coaches, in positional coaches particularly who once they're in possession they go into a three box three or a three to five however you want to call it um his system's generally quite similar to that so it's not going to be a massive earthquake but there will be players in there that may not have the same roles i mean if he does base it on leverkusen then you're i mean leverkusen was built on two fantastic wingbacks yeah two different profiles grimaldo playmaker frimpong very advanced um but yeah i think in terms of i mean it's it's certainly about the squad and providing some leadership within that.

18:10That has to be priority number one. James, you watched this Leverkusen side and you were nodding along with some of the things Pete was saying there. Back three and new managers coming in from the outside, sets alarm bells ringing for certain football fans of the Premier League. Will we see something different from Jabir Alonso? Or should we not judge him on his past tactical options in his previous sides? We'll wait and see. Well, as Pete says, I mean, what you can say is that he's not, he's not it doesn't I think it's fair to say that he's not as wedded to the back three system as some coaches because obviously he used differently back four at Real Sociedad and Real Madrid but it's no getting away from the fact that his massive success in management was with that you know back three system and as Pete says the wing backs were absolutely huge for Leverkusen's success as well so it'll be interesting to see what he goes with Really interesting to see Cole Palmer a little wing back Gregor what do you reckon and cutting off the right tactical advances and evolutions all over the place.

19:09Pep Guardiola on the other side of this FA Cup final. And Pete, you mentioned Enzo Maresca. This was the subject of your preview piece to this game. The kind of Enzo Maresca derby, this one, for a bloke who's not involved at either club, but is rumoured, we believe, to be in line to take over from Pep Guardiola if, big if, if, if, if Pep Guardiola decides to walk away, as many have been reporting throughout this season. Paul Hurst and Martin Ziegler are reporters among them. what do we think if we had to guess anyone got any ideas the expectation is that he will leave at the end of the season and you know and I think as you say if he does the likelihood is it's Enzo Maresca who would take charge which is what made the FA Cup final quite interesting I thought as a plot line that's not really been covered too much in the sense that you had Maresca leave Chelsea he wasn't sacked he didn't leave Chelsea with his own accord of a number of issues leading up to that.

20:07Off the back of talks with City at the end of last season, at the end of 2025, sorry, I'm losing track of my dates there. You then have this guy who was part of Chelsea's past and have seen what's happened to Chelsea since. I mean, they've still managed to get to the FA Cup final without him. And then you have Manchester City where you have potentially next in line to Pep Guardiola. So it made a quite fitting fixture, I thought. But in terms of where we are with Pep, I mean, he's been very consistent in what he's saying. I have a contract. Yes. It's also been consistently cheeky, hasn't he, in recent weeks, I think.

20:47Even just the little things, like even though, you know, come on, you irons, that feels like a bloke who's about to go on a big holiday to me. You know, do you know what I mean? Like he's a bloke who's about to watch the World Cup and enjoy himself and be like, ah! You can find these lines anywhere, though. his fitness coach is leaving now as well everyone was like you can't possibly see life without this man in his dugout how can he do a 5k that's it he's good so I've said for a while I didn't think he would see it out and I'd stick with that just about do we think it depends on you know this week we're recording this show on Monday of course Arsenal Burnley he's so unpredictable then they've got the Bournemouth game I can't decide which scenario makes it more likely that he stays winning you think Winning makes him stay.

21:31No, no, sorry. I think winning more likely will lead. Winning, domestic treble, off you go. I do wonder whether losing the title and having the team he's got and having made the signings of Semenyo and Gray and looking at the league, Alonso's come in and be like, go on, I'll have one more crack. In the way that Alex Ferguson pipped at the post, was widely reported afterwards that he was going to go at that season if he hadn't lost to Manchester City, loses to Manchester City and goes, right, Robin van Persie here now, win one more title, then I'm off. What do we think, guys? Paul Hurst mentioned it in his piece.

22:04Pep's leaving a good squad with good depth. A really good squad. He's left six players out of the FA Cup final squad the weekend. It's not the same sort of, let's nip this all together and just shove it out when I'm off. There's something for someone who ever comes in afterwards to work with, but also for him to look at it and go, actually, do you know what? I can see working this going forward. I can see that, you know, Jeremy Docky's one of the best players in the league at the moment. Docky's fantastic. You've got Hartley. There's a lot there. Kusinov, I think, you know, it feels so different, doesn't it, than 12 months ago when it felt like they were in a little bit of disarray.

22:40Now you're looking at some of their young players and think, you know, thinking if you were Pep, you know, wouldn't you love to like, you know, see if you can take Kusinov to being the best centre-back in the world? Make Nico O 'Reilly Rodri's replacement. I would imagine another year under Pep Guardiola for Nico O 'Reilly. not disparaging Enzo Moresca but let's be honest this is going to be a drop off in stature regardless of whatever we'll see on the pitch if it is Enzo Moresca and you know from an editing point of view I'm going to miss him for press conferences and things you never know what he's going to come out with Pete Hughes to ring me up from Enzo Moresca being like not said anything again we're like for God's sake we don't need that Enzo we need some jokes and some fans if he were to leave we'd miss him wouldn't we we'd be very sad well God yeah the Premier League will miss him he's an all time great and although he's you know He has often had sort of disdain, clear disdain for speaking to us a lot, to the media and whatnot.

23:32He has kind of evolved on that side of it in his time in the Premier League as well. And he's been really interested in this season. Yeah, his stuff earlier in the season about loving the FA Cup and being like, you know, he loves it turning up at lower league teams and being shouted, who are you? Who are you? At you? And things. Again, to me, that looks like a guy who's like, ah, just rolling out some of the greatest hits before he goes and sits on a sun lounger for a year. More reading into things, Tom. I just can't help myself. But it is interesting when we bring in some other clubs as well.

23:59Manchester United, a good win for them, a very close and narrow win for them against Nottingham Forest. But it looks like Michael Carrick all but signed, sealed, and delivered in terms of a new Manchester United manager full-time. This is an interesting angle, isn't it, in relation to what we're talking about. Manchester United back in the Champions League, going to finish third, pretty much a good season. Michael Carrick slightly bizarrely for me, being listed as one of the managers of the year. Anyone else find that a little bit bonkers? He hasn't been there the full season. I know Aston Villa fans did.

24:28Yeah, definitely. And Leeds fans. Daniel Farker wasn't in there either, was he? But what do we think about this? We've talked a lot about deserving the job and I think widely accepted that he probably does. You have to give him a shot. But for Manchester United, in their stature as a club and looking around them at, we believe, potentially Enzo Mureska going in at their local rivals, Xabi Alonso going in at Chelsea, Is there any danger of this being a little underwhelming overall when they look at the competition around them, do you think? I've said for a while, I think what Manchester United need to be is just content for a while.

25:03I think it's been such a difficult decade and there's been a lot of toxicity almost at times in that period as well. And Michael Carrick swept it all away. And it's not all been based on vibes. Yes, vibes have been a big part of it and just seeing the players looking happy and sort of clearing their roles and responsibilities. They've won more points than any other team since his appointment. James actually wrote a really interesting column about this not so long ago about the kind of what, you know, managers aren't big behemoths anymore. Not all like that. And that's the truth. When you look around, a lot of clubs are floundering around to try and find who the next manager is going to be.

25:49And that's part of the story. Michael Carrick in another era would never be Manchester United manager but this is the era we're in and I think having got the opportunity I remember when we were saying who should get it Solskjaer or Carrick I thought at the time Carrick because you can see a future with Carrick I don't think you could ever see another future with Solskjaer and that was the kind of decision they had at the time because Carrick young and although he did as we know he did good work at Middlesbrough despite falling short not making it to the Premier League and he's obviously a bright guy and a good coach.

26:23You could see the future there and I think you can see a future there now. It may not be the forever future, it may not be taking them to win the Premier League title but it'll make them, it looks like right now, it'll make them a content, organised, coherent looking football team and one that's more likely to be in the Champions League of the year. Yeah, contentment in football in 2026, guys. What do we reckon? Possible? Do you trust Ineos, though, at this point? This is the one drawback, because it's very difficult not to give it to Michael Carrick. I think even when you think about the first half of the season, what it was like under Ruben Amorim, the things he's had to paper over, particularly their midfield, right?

27:05I mean, we've been sitting here in the podcast and just lamenting the state and the spaces that they were offering up in them. You know, we're in a scenario where Casemiro is waved off into the sunset. You know, like those kind of things. that Carrick can take responsibility for. He's had a fantastic second half of the season. And it feels like there has been more of a process this time. You know, unlike the Solskjaer thing, sign it, it's on the table. It's actually got to this point. It feels a bit more considered. They've not rushed into it. It's still not confirmed, is it? I mean, it's going to happen.

27:35But do you know what I mean? It feels like there's been that process. It's just, then you take what's happened before and you look at the decision to keep Eric Ten Hag when they shouldn't have done. The decision to appoint Ruben Amorim during the middle of a season, a coach who was quite clearly very specifically wedded to assist and that this playing squad were not suited to, and then you end up in the scenario that we're in now. That's where the doubt comes in. And then you ask, well, can you see Michael Carrick being the coach that leads them to the Champions League or leads them to a Premier League title?

28:09We don't know. And I guess the counterpoint would be where you can look at Mikel Arteta going into Arsenal maybe at that point and go, I don't think everyone saw him as having that aura and authority at that stage, but he's developed it. So quite an on-the-fence answer. Well, it's hard not to be, isn't it? It's hard. It's hard because Gregor talks about contentment, and there's part of me that looks at it and goes, we're sat here next season and Manchester United have finished third again and played some entertaining, exciting football, won a lot of games at Old Trafford 3-2 in the last minute, as they have done under Michael Carrick.

28:38Made a good first time in the Champions League. Got to the knockout stages, hopefully gone a lot further in the domestic cup competitions than they managed this season. You would imagine, and Manchester United fans get in touch with me to correct me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk, they'd be happy with that. Yeah, and need to sign a midfielder as well, right? Those issues still exist. And Carrick's done, like I say, he's done really well to turn that into a functioning team. James has been very successful. I think it's interesting also in the kind of wider context of former England players as managers.

29:09We'll obviously have Carrick next season, Frank Lampard, we're back in the Premier League next season. One thing that England as a football nation has been unbelievably unsuccessful at is turning former top players into even sort of successful managers, not even sort of top managers. You know, I think if you were to go, you could probably go back through the last sort of maybe 15 or 20 England major tournament squads where, you know, probably about 200 names or something. and the most successful manager is Gareth Southgate who was a very good England manager no real no really successful figures in club football and I think a lot has been said about whether particularly there's been a lot of criticism of Lampard at certain times about whether he was tactically astute enough probably I guess some of the same will be thrown at Carrick at some point But in a way, that's something that you're often going to get with people who've had a really top and long playing career is that they're slightly playing catch up against some of their contemporaries who, you know, have maybe spent much of their 20s doing their coaching badges.

30:28But actually, if you look at figures like, you know, Didier Deschamps, Zinedine Zidane, I don't think anyone thinks necessarily as absolute tactical masterminds. But that, you know, sometimes the ability to, you know, manage a squad of people, you know, maintain morale, sort of that kind of ability to relate to top players, that kind of light touch with, you know, just the cohesion of personalities in the squad. it can take you not to disrespect Deschamps Zidane but I think that is the bedrock of their success and that can take you a certain As I said before as well we may be looking at Premier League without Pep Guardiola next season Klopp's moved on Liverpool have question marks hanging over a slot Chelsea yes they've just appointed a very bright young manager but question marks about the Chelsea project it's a pretty open landscape going into next season it's not what it was even three years ago.

31:27Well, we talked about, you brought Liverpool in there and I wanted to finish by talking about them because we've talked about culture and players and James, you've just mentioned with Michael Carrick managing big names and big players. That seems to be part of the problem that Arna Slott is facing at the moment. Mo Salah are making comments about the state of the club, the disappointments of this season. How do we look at Liverpool very quickly? Like, do we hope he stays? I hope he stays. You know, I think he deserves this summer. It's been a tumultuous incredible. I can't think of many other managers who've had to deal with all the things he's had to deal with both on and off the pitch this season.

32:02He did win them the title in his first season, but it's his modern football. And I do think as well, this is why I brought in Liverpool at the end, you'd be a Liverpool fan listening to all the things we've talked about and listen to Alonso and even Carrick. Even Carrick could be like, he's a former player, former legend, won loads of stuff. The urge and the desire to change is there, isn't it? Push the button. You can imagine some people in the Liverpool boardroom going, ah, let's not wait, let's not wait, let's go, let's do it. What do we think, James? The thing I think is super interesting about Liverpool is, you know, you rewind 12 months and one thing a lot of people will say, you know, in a landscape where we, you know, we've seen a lot about how hard it is to play at max intensity, to play a max intensity style of football week in, week out without, you know, paying the cost for that.

32:50And one thing a lot of people were saying 12 months ago is, what a clever succession it was slot after Klopp and how he'd been able to kind of, he'd been able to keep some of the best aspects of Klopp's football, but when in a slightly sort of less all guns blazing package, which allowed, you know, more of the top players to be on the pitch more of the time. I think what's really come to the fore this season, what's so interesting for me is, I think the variable that seems to be underestimated is how strong an emotional hold Jurgen Klopp's idea of football still has on Liverpool. I mean, you've got Mo Salah writing about, you know, intensity is our identity.

33:31Heavy metal football. And it was such... Klopp was such a genius for branding. You know, that intensity is our identity idea. The problem Liverpool have, and as you said, I think there are good arguments for keeping Arnestlan, giving him another go. But I think the massive problem than Liverpool have now is you have Liverpool fans looking at Liverpool not just you know being disappointed with the results which is par for the course but looking at Liverpool and being like a little bit you know kind of Who are we? Who are we? Being a bit repulsed by the kind of style of football and this isn't us this isn't who we are and how do you come back from that?

34:10I mean I think that's an incredibly hard place for him to be in. The only thing I would say is it's really not Mo Salah's place to tell Liverpool or anyone or in particular the manager who are what they are or should be this is a non-negotiable everyone who joins the club should adapt to it and he's again referencing that intensity in the heavy metal football sorry Mo you won't be there next year as much of a great and a legend you are at the football club you know Jurgen Klopp couldn't even say that he's the one who instilled that identity no one can say that so So, yeah, James makes a really good point.

34:49That was one of the things that Slott was praised for. He just dialed it down a little bit. It's not heavy metal, it's kind of funky jazz or whatever.

35:02But the thing is, you did still see the best parts of that when Liverpool didn't have the ball. You saw the intensity, how ferociously they pressed up the pitch how that kind of just tipped the balance particularly in the second half of a lot of games and it was all about you still saw a drive and a kind of an intensity and that kind of the legs seem to have gone a bit this season I also think if if intensity is your identity at a club level if you aspire to play you know that is your brand of football you kind of have to accept don't you that like you are going to have some seasons where it doesn't work.

35:47Where that very delicate balance between the intensity and keeping all your players available. It's obviously incredibly hard to take the long view in football. But I think if intensity is your identity as a club, you're going to have some slightly lost seasons where you fall on the wrong side of that injuries, player availability. To play at max intensity week in, week out, especially in the modern era season after season after season so hard to do that and be successful I think Pete do you think you'll be there I know I do yeah I mean even just I mean covering the Alonso story and Liverpool not moving for him and just seeing the Liverpool reaction to every development the supporters you know full on meltdown stuff territory very very upset your social media feed a good place to be was it I assume when you were reporting the Chelsea approaches I mean from a Liverpool perspective no but James is right that's the managed part of it that Liverpool are going to have to navigate.

36:50It is bringing the supporters with them. It's hard to remember. And it's hard for Slott to turn that round. It's hard to remember a divide or such a divide between an ownership and the manager and the fan base so close after having had such success. It really isn't... It's not easy to remember an instance like this in recent years in the Premier League. and it's also so rare for Liverpool. You don't really see the supporters turning on the manager in this way. So as much as we all, I think, around the table would like to see Slott giving more time and giving a chance and time to fix some of the mess and misfortune that was not of his doing this summer, a lot of water has passed under the bridge this season and it might be hard for him to turn it back.

37:39Yeah, big summer ahead for Liverpool and Arna Slott. Liverpool fans do get in touch with me, tom.clarkatthetimes.co.uk. With your views, it's time for a break. Time for a quick quiz question, which Gregor Robertson cannot take part in because he knows the answer. He's responsible for the piece, which Aston Villa defender was called a Rolls-Royce defender by Prince William. Find out after the break.

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38:48Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got James Geerbrandt, Peter Rutzler and Gregor Robertson with me. Pete, James, you did get the answer to the quiz question eventually after going through a lot of Aston Villa defenders. But Gregor, I'll let you do the answer to the question because it was you who wrote the piece. who did Prince William call a Rolls Royce defender in the Aston Villa squad? Esri Konza Esri Konza and this was a piece that you can read on the Times website now all part of the preview to their big Europa League final you'll go in with Martin Samuel we're excited aren't we?

39:18Very excited yeah Unai Emery Europa League the king of Europa League what could go wrong for Aston Villa the future king watching the stands yeah first potentially a first European trophy in 44 years it's a huge huge night for Villa and they'll be favourites against Freiburg but they need to get over the line Yeah, we'll be discussing that match and the latest on the top and bottom of the Premier League. Obviously, West Ham losing that massive match against Newcastle at the weekend. But Tottenham, Chelsea, Tuesday night. We've got City. We've got Arsenal playing tonight as well. We'll be back with all that on Thursday.

39:49Let's go back to Saturday now and talk about one of the other thrilling title races that we've been discussing in more detail of late. And that's in Scotland. We're joined now by The Times' Scottish football correspondent, Michael Grant, to discuss it. Michael, hello. Hey, Tom. How are you doing? Good, mate. Thank you. Yeah, just... I mean, what was it like? I mean, I was watching this game in the pub, Celtic Hearts. There were some Hearts fans in there, in a pub in London, in their shirts. They had their scarves on. I was thinking, that is the only time you've ever been in a pub in England in that shirt, I guarantee it.

40:23And I don't mean that disparagingly, but this was their moment. They'd come down to the pub. They'd got their mates there. All me and all the neutrals were watching it going, oh, my God, no. it did have that feeling about it didn't it what was it like being in the stadium in terms of the match and how the action played out uh it was an assault on the senses tom really from start to finish i mean i've been going to games in scotland covering games in scotland for 30 odd years you know and uh i'm struggling to think of uh certainly a league game that was as tense as that the whole game from start to finish was it just felt like everyone in the stadium was kind of could almost hardly get their breath.

41:04Even a couple of hours before the game, there was a huge amount of Celtic supporters waiting for the buses to arrive, obviously booing the Harts bus in. I mean, it was really hostile. You really felt that Celtic and the Celtic support were having to put everything into this occasion to try and will their team across the line. Incredible drama. And also, if you're not familiar with Scottish football, you might think, well, Celtic win it all the time. Surely their fans would just kind of shrug if one gets away from them. It doesn't work that way up here, especially for the Old Firm fans. Their will to keep winning is insatiable, really.

41:43So they were really, really up for this match. And it became a real cauldron for Hearts to come into, with only about 750 fans out of 60 ,000. So really, it was an incredible occasion to be a part of. And of course, the way the game unfolded, Tom, was remarkable. For Hearts to be in that league-winning position until the 87th minute and then for it to go against them, Celtic scored a goal. It's disallowed for offside. It's then overturned by a VAR call. And the scenes when that goal was allowed to stand was truly unremarkable. The only thing I could compare it to is, you know when you see a set of fans doing the pause on that?

42:25Yeah. And you know when a stadium just looks different, the movement, the body movement, it was like that for about 30 seconds. But obviously wilder than that. I mean, it was genuinely breathtaking. I mean, I do kind of feel like I've seen it all up here, but that was different. And then, by God, you felt for hearts. Yeah, you definitely did. You really did feel for hearts, you know, because of the history of that club as well. Yeah. I mean, part of it was watching it unfold. there felt like an inevitability about it as well, being at Celtic and everything. Was there anything, and Gregor jump in as well here, was there anything Hearts could have done differently?

43:03I was just watching it, willing them in that second half to win a free kick, to hold the ball for like two minutes, for something to happen. But it just felt so inevitable that it was going this way. Was there anything they could have done differently? You know, they've been so brilliant all season. No, I don't think there was really. I mean, the first half, tactically from Derek McKinnis was a masterclass. I mean, he kind of broke up the game and kind of closed Celtic down, didn't give them much opportunity at all. The second half, it just got away from them, you know, and Celtic came strong.

43:38Celtic substitutions made a difference. Hearts lost by Ingame and had to make changes. And I think there was, you're right, there was that feeling of inevitability. and if you're a non-Old Firm fan in Scotland there is always that sense of inevitability that a game is going to get away from you in the closing minutes I remember at one point just looking at the net that Celtic were attacking and I thought Celtic are going to score into that before the end of this afternoon and they're just going to flip this league on its head and you're right, it happens but given the whole context the whole wider picture of Scottish football and of Hearts in particular just unbelievable really for Celtic to triumph the way they did and for Hearts to lose it the way they did One of my best friends described it as who's a Hearts fan as like watching a historical fiction Really?

44:31It was like you know what's coming but it's still a punch when it does and it did feel like that I bet there was a few more swear words in there wasn't there? Yeah there was a few bleeps Edit that out It did feel like that it did and it was a strange game too I mean it almost felt like watching the championship you to play a final. Because there's so much pressure that it's overwhelming for even the players. They couldn't function as they normally do. They'd forgotten how to take a touch and pass the ball, didn't they? They were just like, ping, ping, ping, ping. So it's all about not making a mistake.

45:01But in the last 15 minutes, because Celtic had to do something, it just became frantic. And Michael's right. The substitutes turned the dial at the time as well when players were dropping like flies for hearts. It's like everything was just, oh, it's another little chip away at the feeling that they can hold on to this. And it was just a remarkable end. And also, just the fact that it didn't actually end was an extraordinary end in itself. Because, I don't know, a title deciding match should end. And I know that it's been said afterwards that the referee blew the final whistle, but there was 30 seconds or whatever to play.

45:37And even if the hearts weren't going to get two goals, that should have been played. And I know there's very valid reasons for it not being played, But for that to be the way that this season of all seasons was kind of the conclusion to it wasn't what Hearts deserved. Yeah. And it's not what Celtic deserved either, Michael, because, you know, for them to have come back, they are a great story in their own right, aren't they? A remarkable story. Managerial changes. Martin O 'Neill back once, but not once, but twice, you know, doing it again at home for them on footballing terms is a great story.

46:08and actually quite a lot of the unsavouriness at the end just spoils this whole narrative of joy around the Scottish title race that there was, hasn't there? Yeah, it was. I mean, you're right. I mean, before the game, the Celtic supporters took out this big TIFO or created this big TIFO that said, there's a fairy tale about this club, you know? And if you're not, if your allegiances aren't with Celtic, you think, well, the fairy tale was Hearts this season or it would have been Hearts. But you're right. Martin O 'Neill coming back twice as interim manager, saving their season, hauling them from the canvas, winning the last seven league games.

46:45They hadn't been top of the league since September until the 87th minute of the final game of the season. That's the narrative that O 'Neill created. There was all of that, and as you say, there's the Hearts thing, and the Hearts 40-year wait for an Arnold front champion, 60-year wait for Hearts. But it has been overshadowed to a degree by the end of the game. And this kind of descent into a loss of control. And it was interesting, Tom, that there was hundreds of fans, hundreds of fans were on the pitch. Some of that is exuberance, but some of it was more than that. There was a nastiness to it.

47:26They're in the faces of the Hearts players. They're goading them. Some young guys trying to take selfies. Can you imagine how distraught you are as a Hearts player at that moment? You've just had the guts ripped out of you. You think you're on course for a league title. It's taken away from you validly by a goal. And then these guys, these young idiots, yobs, are jumping about in your face. They deserve so much better than that. And they're having to be kind of huckled off the pitch by security staff. And their own club staff is out trying to get the players off the pitch safely. it was such an ugly end to it and also worth just stating that there was a lot of booing around the around the stadium from the vast vast majority of Celtic fans who didn't want to see this who didn't want fans on the pitch because who knows what it might have meant if the game if there became a real controversy about the game not finishing correctly you know you could be into a debate about the game getting abandoned a 3-0 victory for the Hatters Yeah.

48:31Michael, I want to come back to you in just a second to talk about what next for Scottish football. But Gregor, just in the break, I was saying about how watching this game and a lot of my pals as well were looking at this from a kind of Celtic point of view. And Michael alluded to earlier, this idea that we win all the time, actually, it's a bad thing. It'd be good for the game, good for the country, you know, good for the league. And also the reactions at the end. You know, I was joking with James in the break as well, like, oh, why didn't we see a Flintoff and Brett Lee moment at the end? You know, players consoling each other, managers hugging.

49:00this has been brilliant and you pointed out that I'm deluded and I just don't get Scottish football yeah that's not the that's not the way it works up there at all there's something like there are real deep roots in the sort of in the tribalism I know every country and every league around the world will feel that's true but it's it's smaller it's more intimate it's more of a bubble and it's the same few faces that you're you're always kind of battling it out with and also it's always the old firm that everyone else is trying to knock off their perch and failing to so for Celtic to still be able to have come through and won the title despite all the complacency that they've shown this year and probably last season as well I'm a Celtic fan, I've said this on the show before and I felt enormous sympathy for Hearts and I felt like it's probably not good for Celtic because they might look at the future and think oh maybe it's not as bad as we thought and they have been very very complacent for a period of time now and I like we should I think we should and Michael will as well finish on a positive note for hearts because as much as this I mean imagine being on that team bus on the way home in your kit still sweaty kit tears rolling down your face and then being grated as well at Tyne Castle by the fans who are waiting there hoping to see them there with the trophy it's unfathomable but Tony Bloom has been at the club for one year.

50:29One year,£10 million investment. You have the Jamestown Analytics, which we all know what he's done at Brighton with that, and Union San Gilo Way and Como. The future is very bright for ours. And it actually will make for a brighter future for Scottish football, I think. So, Michael, just to finish with you then on that idea, people like me mischievously suggesting on Saturday that this is a disaster for Scottish football, this was their chance, the storyline, and everyone's been paying attention to it. Annoying football podcasts like ours have finally started talking about Scottish football on a regular basis.

51:02But do you agree with Gregor that Hearts will come again, that those people I saw in the pub in London will have their shirts out again this time next season, potentially? You think there could be three horse races for the title? Well, and my final words on this podcast for the next 10 years or so... No, we're having that, Michael. Yeah, I think there's an element of truth in both points that, you know, You think, how can you not say that that was maybe the best chance they'll get when they were three minutes away from winning it? Yeah, I mean, they pushed it all the way to the line. This season will be remembered as the season of Hearts in a way, even though they're not the champions.

51:42But having said all that, the fundamentals are strong at Hearts in terms of coming again. Tory Bloom, as Gregor mentioned, Jamestown Analytics, there's money and substance behind that club. They're growing. They will lose players, though. I think the important players are leaving this summer and they will have to have a bit of a rebuild. But certainly I think they'll be a strong challenger again next season to the old firm. They're great. It's not the triumph they wanted, but their greatest triumph for the season is just to make people think differently about Scottish football. And they've kind of ventilated the scene and the competition.

52:18That's to their enormous credit. Yeah, absolutely. Huge, huge praise deserved for Hearts. I'll be getting a Hearts shirt for next season if they can challenge for the trophy, even if it's just to wind up Gregor Robertson and Michael Grant. You're not going anywhere because you'll be back for this World Cup Scotland special very soon. And we'll be having you on the show throughout the tournament as well. We can't wait to speak to you again. Thank you very much for joining us. Michael Grant, the Scottish football correspondent for The Times. Michael Grant there. He'll be joining us regularly throughout the World Cup.

52:42We'll be doing daily episodes of the game podcast. So make sure you stick with us throughout the summer. The season might be over in club football, but there's still plenty more to come. All hearts, aren't we? I'm definitely going to be getting my kit for next season. Let's talk about two pieces written by James in the last couple of weeks, starting with your excellent column last Thursday, which declared Marcos Sanesi is the most underrated player in the Premier League. I bet it when you love it when we do headlines like this, don't we? Definitive, no wiggle room. No comment. Why? Why do you think so, Jim?

53:17Well, I think this season he's... Don't start with nuance. Oh, well, it's nuance. There's lots of players in contention. Go on, tell us why. I think he's the best player of all time. He has had a phenomenal season. As many assists as Morgan Rodgers and Declan Rice, more chances created than Cole Palmer. On the defensive side, they've been pretty good as well. I think prior to this weekend, only Arsenal, Man City and Crystal Palace had more clean sheets than Palace and Sines has played in every one. Third most interceptions of any player in the Premier League just behind Garner and Casado, I think.

53:51Right. And also, no one has played 500 passes into the final third in a Premier League season since Cesc Fabregas. And Sanessi is on pace to do that. Wow. On the final day of the season. See, everyone's talking about, will Bruno Fernandes break the assist record? That's the real quiz. This is the real quiz. Will he make five? How many do you know? Off the top of your head, do you know how many he needs? So I haven't checked it since the weekend's games, but prior to this weekend, and he was on about 490-something. Right, that's my job on Tuesday night. I'm just going to be watching him against Manchester City going, there's another one, there's another one.

54:24He's nearly there. James making a very good case for Marcos Sanessi there, chaps. Pete, Gregor, got any other candidates for underrated players of the year? I interviewed Ryan Christie last season with the same sort of... You bloody love Ryan Christie, honestly. It's been a while since you managed to work him into the show. Often, the reason for making these sort of claims is based around stats and stats that people wouldn't necessarily have come across. Like, clearly you meet the eye test as well, but that's a big thing. And at the time, Ryan Christie had won possession more times than any player in the Premier League or Europe's top five leagues.

54:57So that was a big part of it. And he's like front foot midfielder. One who doesn't show up trumps on any of the statistics or anything like that, for me, is Ferdi Carioglu. But I still think he's a brilliantly versatile and underrated full-back at Brighton. but he doesn't he doesn't get many goals or assists he doesn't like pass into the final third none of that stuff he's just so consistent and he can play right back left back right wing left wing he can invert into midfield he can even play in a back three he can play just a bit anywhere and interviewed Demi L in the season two that's the criteria isn't it yeah he's got to have been interviewed by Gregor Robinson in order to make it in his list Pete there's a couple that come to mind I was going to say Ethan Ampadu at Leeds I think he's had a fantastic season and we've known about him for a long time, the academy, the exeter, Chelsea, but yeah, really important to them.

55:50Kiernan Dewsbury Hall was my other one. Again, there's a Chelsea link there, so maybe that's too much time around. Just making digs about players that Chelsea have let go and they could have had in the squad. The whole podcast. Yeah, exactly, absolutely. Well, if you've got any votes for most underrated players, do get in touch with me, tom.clarkatthetimes.co.uk. Zanasi, Christie, Kadhioglu, Kiernan Dewsbury Hall, that's a hipsters five-a-side team heading towards right there. Let's finish by looking at another one of James' excellent articles in the past two weeks. Looking at Neymar, one of the great football enigmas.

56:21And proving so, James, by the fact that you went to Brazil, we set you this task, you wrote basically what I set you the challenge of, the definitive Neymar read. And a week's gone by and you could rewrite it all again because of what's happened in the most recent match ways, substituted by accident. Remarkable scenes in what was Neymar's final match before Carlo Ancelotti selects the Brazil squad. Santos playing against Coritiba. He's in absolute floods of tears as the Brazilian anthem played before kickoff. And then even more remarkably, with Santos 3-0 down, the afternoon not going the way he wanted, He then came off the pitch briefly because he'd taken a knock and was sort of, you know, just kind of resting slash having his ankle kind of seen to.

57:16And then the fourth official's board went up with his number 10 on it, which turned out to be a mistake. He wasn't supposed to be the player who was coming off the pitch. The fourth official just made an error. Because he was off the pitch and the substitution then happened, he wasn't able to re-enter the pitch. he had indeed been substituted by accident. And he even grabbed the paper slip, which is given to the fourth official, and showed it to the cameras to show that he wasn't the player who was supposed to come for the pitch. But he had to kind of accept his failure. Extraordinary scenes. It's incredibly unlucky, I suppose, although one has to point out, I guess, that Santos were 3-0 down at the time, and clearly he hadn't, you know, made a sort of inarguable case for inclusion based on that scoreline, but nonetheless, incredible.

58:12As you mentioned there, the backdrop to this and to indeed the kind of reason for you doing the piece was gearing towards the World Cup. We're going to keep talking about the World Cup increasingly, but there's a feeling of can he have one last dance on the World Cup stage? You know, this kind of hugely engaging figure. And that was very much the theme of your piece, wasn't it? As you say, by the time you listen to this, maybe you will already know whether he has or hasn't made Carlo Ancelotti's final squad. He made the long list a couple of days after we published your piece. But how is he viewed in Brazil?

58:41Because I think we kind of have a sense of quite a good sense of how he's viewed in this country. You know, your piece was headline Indulge and Reviled. I would say he probably falls into the more reviled category in this country, certainly. Lots of times readers commenting below the line, oh, I don't care how good he is. He rolls around all the time. But in Brazil, he's a hero, isn't he? He's a god. Well, look, I think Neymar hasn't played for the Brazilian national team since 2023. The match against Uruguay only tore his ACL. I don't think there's any other footballer on the planet who hasn't played for their country for three years who would be having serious conversations about, oh, my God, is he going to be in the squad?

59:18Will he? Won't he? But I think that reflects not only Neymar's, you know, fame and all that, but also the fact that he has made a very substantial international career with Brazil. I mean, to have overtaken Pelé's goals record for Brazil, which, you know, Zico, Romário, Ronaldo, they all tried to do it and none of them could get there. Neymar, you know, has done it. He's had a career of great longevity, whatever else you think of him. And the other thing that we hear is that all the... He's a player's player in Brazil. All the Brazilian players who have played with him in the national team or have played with him in Santos, they generally speaking love him.

1:00:04And indeed, what I heard from more than one person when reporting this piece is every other Brazilian player would love Neymar to be in the squad. Even probably the players who are kind of indirectly competing against him for a place would love, you know, dream of being in the squad with Neymar. He's, you know, he's, I guess, a defining figure for, you know, a kind of Gen Z footballer. He was growing up, you know, and watching Neymar as the big star. He's someone who I think, you know, Brazil's failure to win a World Cup kind of gets held against him. But I think, really, he's played extremely well at World Cups generally.

1:00:41I mean, he was very good in 2014 before he was kicked out of the tournament by a fan, which literally broke his back. 2022 scored that unbelievable goal you know almost single-handedly kind of weaving through the Croatia defence only for Brazil to obviously concede one five minutes later I don't think he could have done much more on the World Cup stage but has he made a compelling case to be in this World Cup squad equally I'm not sure Gregor yeah Enigma is the right word isn't it and he's a player remarkable highs and then there's just always been a sense of whether how he fits into a wider structure and that's become more sort of important as the years have gone by I think in football and Carlo Ancelotti is someone as a manager who's been able to accommodate players in that mould yet he's not he's not he might by the time I've made this statement but he's not yet been persuaded to to kind of to give him a try and James I think James kind of outlined a lot of the reasons for that in his piece.

1:01:49To kind of, you know, how things off the pitch and stuff have maybe been a distraction at times. How perhaps his career has been guided by his father in a sort of business-like sense. And all those things feed into this juncture he's arrived at now, where there's, you know, I'm sure he'd be absolutely devastated if he's not included in this. He's such a compelling player and such an interesting story for someone so gifted on the ball. and the goals he's scored. When he first broke through at Santos, nominated for Pushkas, just the whole way through up to now. And you get to this point where you're not taking him for football, you're taking him for who he is and what that can do for the squad.

1:02:30Like James says, they'd love to play with him. He absorbs the noise. And at a World Cup, the noise in Brazil is massive. So having someone that can be that might be good. Whether he would be, sort of have the humility to recognise that and then sit on the bench is a different story. But you mentioned the 2014 injury and I just find it... Obviously, the major turning point in his career was going to PSG. And, you know, we talk about PSG and the indulgence of star players and how it didn't work in this Galacticos era. I mean, he used to live in the same house as Ronaldinho. There were stories of his parties.

1:03:04Locally, he was like a ghost on the hill, but they knew when he was having a party. But what was always compelling and interesting with him is that in the second half of the season, particularly I think more in the second half of his career, the amount of times he got injured at key junctures, particularly when he was at PSG, he still took them to the Champions League final. Yeah. Coincidentally, when he was not injured. But that decision to go to France, which is a much more physical league, you know, I remember doing some pieces on Neymar and speaking to people about him and that decision. And it was, you know, there was the stepping out of the Messi shadow.

1:03:37There was that aspect to it. But it was a decision when you actually think in football terms, it ultimately hurt him. because most of these injuries were impact. And we talked about the 2014, he's still broken Brazil's record goal squad, despite consistently picking up these injuries. Obviously not as serious as the ACL that he did in 2023. But in terms of his talent, and obviously so much noise and everything else around it, but when you actually look at his talent, he's one of the game's best players. The fascinating thing about James' piece was as well that, we probably would associate him with a player as a big ego, and, I don't know, might not be popular.

1:04:14But as James reported, everyone is hugely popular with everyone he comes into contact with. He has that kind of mighty touch. He's a people person, it seems. And that was from, you know, he told a story about people who were invited to his parties that, you know, and bust in and stuff. Yeah, so Mauricio Romaglio, the former Santos coach, who was manager of Santos when they won the Copa Libertadores, told us the story about how, you know, Neymar had, I think, a 20th or 21st birthday party and he held a huge music venue in Sao Paulo. But he also said Neymar laid on a coach for all the kind of behind the scenes staff at Santos, the people who, you know, mow the grass and the people who clean the bathrooms to come to his birthday party.

1:05:02And not only come, but they were the first people to enter the venue. It's kind of, as you say, an interesting story, which sort of slightly kind of goes against maybe some of the, certainly I think some of the negative perceptions we have about Neymar in this country. Yeah, absolutely. A really fascinating article and just one of the many, many pieces that are going to be on the Times website in the coming weeks, all linked towards the World Cup. James, do you want him to be there? We all want him to be there, don't we, Neymar? Yeah, come on, Carlo, make it happen. Just before we go, I should remind you, in relation to the World Cup, you can come and join us for a live episode of the game podcast.

1:05:34Martin Samuel, Johnny Northcroft, Hamza's going to be there. Tony Cascarino's going to be there. The only downside is I've got to be there as well. The final few tickets are still on sale. That's next week in London. You can come and join us and be part of the show and ask a couple of questions. Go to thetimes.com slash events to find the final tickets. Chaps will have to leave it there. Gregor Robertson, Peter Rutzler and James Gearbant. Thank you very much for joining me. We'll be back on Thursday to discuss the top and bottom of the Premier League. We'll see you then.

1:06:29We'll see you next time. Do right by yourself and your business and search Xero for your free trial. Conditions apply.