Anfield can't save Liverpool from PSG

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1:07Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Another humbling defeat for Liverpool and a tight victory for Arsenal. The Champions League is reaching crunch time with all four quarter finals producing fascinating contests this week. On today's show we'll discuss those matches and the brilliant performances from David Raya, Harry Kane and Michael Alise and plenty of others as well. will analyse a massive weekend in the Premier League relegation battle and we'll hear an extract from an exclusive interview with a top flight manager that you can read on the Times website this weekend.

1:40I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the former Millwall, Marseille and Ireland striker Tony Cascarino, the football reporter and tactical analyst Hamza Khalid Lunat and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robinson is here alongside me as usual. Welcome back Tom. Thank you Gregor. Even if you are in your Lincoln City script. Which means even if I am in my Lincoln City kit. It had to be done. You didn't wear that around the office? I brought it into the office actually on Tuesday, but then I bottled wearing it whilst editing it. What year? Come on. 2018-19. Bit retro vibe. Anyone wants to check it out, go to YouTube.

2:11You can rate my link. How did you do that year? That was the year we lost in the playoff final. So nice that we've got promoted now and I can wear this shirt without any kind of trauma. Why are you collars up? Are you like Graham Swan or something? Eric Cantona vibes, isn't it? Cantona, famously associated with the imps as well. Just pomp, bit of attitude. You know what I mean? Just coming back excited. It's been a good few weeks for you, hasn't it? Exactly. Lincoln promoted. What is the animal on the... That's the imp. Oh. That's the imp. What's the animal? That is the imp. I didn't know the imp was an animal.

2:41No, it's a little imp. That's what's... I couldn't give you the full history if you like, Tony. Yeah, let's do that off air. But maybe we'll do that off air in the break because we have got loads to discuss. There's a big cathedral in Lincoln. Yeah, I know. I've been there. It's a beautiful cathedral. Anyway, we'll save this. I interviewed a big centre forward. Matt Reid, you did? In the cathedral. Gregor, you need to rein me in here because we have already done an EFL extra show that was mostly about Lincoln City's promotion and we need to get back to talk about the Champions League because there is loads and loads to discuss.

3:08So let's go to Paris and another tough night for Arna Slott and Liverpool. 2-0 defeat, but in truth, let's be honest, it probably could have been worse. We'll come to the tactical efforts of Slott in this second. Hamza, I'll probably come to you on that one. But after the big defeat against City in the Cup and Virgil van Dijk's comments about players giving up. What did we make of this performance as a whole? Gregor, I'll come to you first. Chastening. Any hope whatsoever? Any bright sparks? Any bright sparks? There are not many, no. I mean, you even listened to Slott afterwards. He admitted they were ripped apart.

3:44That was a quote. He said they were in survival mode. And he's basically suggesting Liverpool's best hope is the Anfield aura. the history of Anfield, the Anfield Roar all that kind of stuff good luck because I don't think this PSG team give a damn where they're playing where the stadium is what country it's in give them a pitch and a ball and they'll do what they do and it is a joy to watch we'll talk about Liverpool's tactics yesterday played a back three for the first time I think apart from a cup game this season I'm not sure it would have made much difference how they set up because PSG just pull you around drag you all over the place they give you so many decisions so many headaches particularly for defenders and good luck to them in the second leg Tony would you agree with Gregor's assessment there because you know PSG they are the holders they are superb footballing side so in some respects 2-0 defeat going back to Anfield any chance any hope?

4:44Well it's a bit like on the sort of the myth of Anfield isn't it you know they go there Tuesday night Wednesday night The fans will be incredible and somehow drag the ball in the back of the net. And I'm with Gregor is that the problem is you're playing against PSG who come to your own backyard and still play the same way. You know, you might as well be playing them in Paris again because they'll come after you. Last year when Liverpool won their 1-0, I said that they are well capable of going to Anfield and winning because I've seen them so many times where I've come away and think, you know, there was times when Manchester United were that.

5:19You know, you think wherever they played, Man City have done that. And Liverpool at the best, just go to your backyard and they'll go, well, we're playing our way and you've got to stop us. And unfortunately, I felt with Slott last night, he didn't really know his formation. I know Hans is going to give us a lot more detail to that. He didn't really know the best formation to play quite clearly. He didn't know who to play quite clearly because he got a number of them wrong. And Liverpool didn't win. If you took every position on the pitch, Liverpool didn't win not one individual battle for me.

5:50all over the pitch whether it was the problem is there's actually often no individual battle you can't even say I'm against him there's so many rotations and if you're a centre if you're a defender central defender in particular playing against PSG it's a nightmare and it might sound this might sound you know silly to say because you're not marking anyone you're like oh that's not a nightmare but it gives you so many decisions and headaches to make you're like Dembele plays like a number 8 for half the night and he's the centre forward and then you've got Hakimi who's the right back making runs like a centre forward in behind them.

6:24And even if you think about the goal, Kvarickelia's goal, there's no one in the centre of the pitch. No PSG player. And you think, well, why is Van Dijk not covering Kanati who's been dragged out? Right, I think it was to Mark Mendes. And he's scared. He knows that Dembele's just hovering in a pocket of space on his left-hand shoulder. and then that little channel's opened up and the ball's fed through for Kvarek Skellier's run and that's what they do all the time. They just drag the defenders apart, create those channels and those spaces and someone makes a run in between them and it's like, it's dizzying.

7:02Perfect, perfect. I can just say a couple of things on that is that physically they look way superior as well. Now, I totally get what Greg is saying about how they drag you all over the field. In terms of fitness or pace? Well, you think of McAllister, for an example. He got overrun every time. Someone, whether it was Neves Vettinia, were always going past him. Someone was doing that. If you think of Canate, how many times they got in behind him. I mean, he was lucky he didn't only give one penalty away, he could have given two. But that was happening all over the pitch. And Fringpong's quick.

7:39And Kerkers is not bad pace-wise, but they look like they'd never played that role before. and they didn't know who to pick up. And that can be an issue for a player if you don't know who you really need to pick up because this team will just keep moving in all different directions and offer a threat every time. And it was, I mean, look, it's great to watch an extraordinary football team, but I came away thinking everything was wrong tonight and I can't see the answer at Anfield either. Well, you both touched on a couple of subjects that's important to bring Hamza in here and Paul Joyce echoing a lot of this on the Times website now.

8:15But speaking about those tactics, Hamza, firstly, and this can be a very quick no, if you like, anything you saw in terms of this back three, back five, wing back system that you thought, this gives Arnie Slott something to work with for the rest of the season? No. No, simple, straight, put it in the bin, never use it again. It won't be used, will it? So then my next follow-up would be, do you think it was a bit of a desperation from a manager under pressure, trying to think of something different to be seen to be doing something? or do you think there was merits in it in the first place i.e when you saw the starting line up and you thought this could work what did you think of it before before the action took place um i don't really like back fives but as in that's just a personal thing yeah um you you can actually still be quite attacking with a back three back five system it just depends on the players that you have in it and the intent that you play with so it's not inherently defensive but you do see it and go oh maybe he's trying to match up against psg you understand the logic behind it even if you don't agree so yeah that there was something there where you go okay um he's trying to deal with the way that psg structure themselves principally with like a 3-2-5 with the ball um the issue was excuse me that intent right so we've just spoken about liverpool's defending you don't have to defend all the time in a five at the back you can have the ball right that way you don't defend as much but if you've got 20-ish percent possession PSG can have the ball loads they're going to work the ball around you their best players are going to be exposing your weakest defenders one-on-one a lot because they've got 80-ish percent possession and I think that is the starting point for Liverpool's issue in this game that they were far too defensive in the way that they approached it their intent was not to play and you look at how they pressed as well so occasionally they try and jump up and press with a five so the wing-backs would join the forwards and they get played through again.

10:08And then, excuse me, PSG would cut through them and have a counter-attack. And then you'd have that situation which Tony mentioned about McAllister, who's meant to be covered by the other guys around him, then suddenly being in transition. And you're thinking, well, he's got no chance against Ousmane Dembele or Kavitschuk Araceli is running at anyone, right? In transition, that's a really, really difficult situation to deal with. And I think it's really interesting as well, actually, because Arna Slott has spoken a lot this season and about how teams don't play football against them. A lot of teams sit back, they play long, they play for set pieces.

10:47And in some ways, it's quite nice and refreshing that a manager is so open about this, right? And they go, actually, it's really difficult to play football when teams don't want to play with us. But that does mean you essentially create a little noose for yourself because you say, when a team plays football, we want to play football against them. if we have the opportunity to press we will if they try and play short passes we'll try and go for them and go toe-to-toe as i tried to do last season um and then you get played off the part like this that reflects very poorly on you but like i said it feels a little bit unfair to to criticize a manager for being so open about that sort of thing most managers will just deny stuff what's happening and they will just flatly reject those sort of discussions so slot has been a little bit unfortunate in that he's been so open and honest that now his own words are coming back to bite him because they played long a lot last night as well into Eketike and Eketike is not that great at holding the ball up and when you look at the structure as well you wonder if that structure is getting the best out of the attacking players because Eketike I think we can all agree is a very good player Warren Vert is a good player, Sobosla is a good player and it's not like we're just saying oh these are good players because we've been told they are we've seen these players be good we saw Verts play internationally for Germany and we saw him play for Leverkusen we saw Eketike play for France uh Soberslay has been very good in the Premier League and so on you can get the whole squad but that structure was was not the right one to get Berts on the ball or get Eketike playing in transition and then you have the Salah issue as well because you wonder if the amount of situations that Frimpong had on the right where he ran into space and then just made the wrong decision yeah you wonder if surely Salah could do that better right maybe he's not as quick anymore maybe he can't fulfill that that um one on one role as well, but he can add quality.

12:36Look at the City match. I mean, he missed chances, but he had chances. Last night, Liverpool had three shots, not on target. Obviously, that's the thing. That's the basis for this decision. They've just been smashed by City. Before that, they lost to Brighton due against Spurs, who were lower than a snake's belly. Lost to Wolves before that. They're in an awful, awful run. And their confidence is on the floor. As you said, Van Dijk, you said, we basically gave up in the game before. so you're going to the best team in Europe you just put extra men behind the ball he said we're in survival mode this was the act of a coach who's in survival mode and a team that's in survival mode the issue is as I said when you play against PSG your central defenders don't have anyone to mark and you put an extra one in you've got three players who were like a lot of the time didn't know who they were asked to mark and then when they were they were being dragged out so wide to mark someone and that's often a fullback of marking the opposite team's fullback.

13:35And then they just created loads of channels for people to explore. Even Van Dijk, he looked a bit like he was doing the hokey-cokey, didn't he? He was just kind of step out, pop back in. Even the penalty, the penalty that was overturned by VAR. Yeah. Dewey was running at Gomez and you think, they've got a decent set-up here. And then Hakimi, again, I'll say it again, the right-back made a run that was like a number 10s run, out wide it, dragged Van Dijk and create the little channel of space for the passers IA Emery. That's really simple, but they're relentless with it. They just constantly make these runs.

14:07It's pass and move football. That's the basis for the kind of football everyone wants to see, but they're relentless with it. A lot of it's really, really intelligent too. Would you say that Slott's in sack-in mode as well? As in, he knows that he's going to go if things don't improve very quickly and he's gone for the protection. I argue it's one of my biggest problems with Liverpool watching them I think they do have a few players that can't press and Virts is definitely one of them you know as much as we say technically with the ball we all know what it's capable of but you can skip past him quite easy and then that gets into you know when McAllister as well gets skipped past so you're getting a number of players the PSG players who are literally getting a free run to go on to the back five of Liverpool and it happened a lot last night Just very quickly on Virts Hamza would you agree with that assessment of his defensive side of his game?

15:00I think in terms of volume of presses, he's there. But as in, there's something that Johnny's spoken about before. I can't remember who told him this. He said that Jamie Vardy had this thing where he would accelerate into the player when he'd press. And it was a really weird phenomenon as a defender, seeing this guy speeding up as he's coming to you. That's Dembele. Yeah, yeah. And you don't quite have the same intensity in Liverpool's press. and like I said, the volume is there, the sprints, the actual intent to press and you can record all the presses, but you're not getting that same ferocity, which I think Tony's talking about.

15:38So in terms of then, we're talking a lot about tactics and Arna Slott's, Tony, you've dangled the possibility around his kind of future at the club, made lots of changes. This is the definitive transition season, isn't it? And kind of embodied with this tactical switch in a massive game that doesn't work out. What does he do now between the end of the season? not just for the PSG second leg, but for big games. He's got a big game at home against Fulham. And as you say, Tony, if he's justifying his status as the manager to take Liverpool into next season, what does he do? What does he go with? Formations, players?

16:09Who does he focus on? In my career a few times, I'm sitting in a dressing room and listening to managers and you start realising they're spinning plates because they don't know what to do. And they might be looking to their coaches and we're looking and thinking, you've got to find a solution. Because at the moment... You don't know what it is either. No, I'm not defending us as players because we're looking for help of how we get things right. And Liverpool are so easy to play against now, even if you go back the end of last season, which they didn't have the greatest of running. Everybody knows that.

16:41But generally, they've become an easy team to play against. And that is quite... There was no fear in PSG's tactics at all. They knew exactly how they could hurt Liverpool. Liverpool didn't know. Last night, it was a case, I'm going to spin my plates and try a different formation, pick certain personnel. Now he goes into the next game in the home league and he's going to go with, I would imagine, a really brave system actually to go... But is that not better for the rest of the season? They're more suited to that. Hamza, you touched on it in some of the things he said, you know, what my principles are, how I like to play the game.

17:12Is that not at least, if he's under pressure, at least go back to what your core beliefs are and go, we're going to try and play the way I want to play. Sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't. Because the other thing, Gregor, you touched on it there. they stopped scoring goals at the start of the season. Everyone was talking about you can score against them, but they'll score those amazing games against Newcastle, which feels like about nine years ago now. But they were winning games 4-2, Bournemouth as well. Is he not better going back to that? You should do what you're good at when you're in a difficult spot.

17:42And I think that point which you just made is actually really important to trace back the arc that Liverpool have gone through this season. At the start, they're very good at attacking and quite poor at defending. and Slott realised, okay, we need to sort of find a new equilibrium. So we're going to pare down the attack, make the games a bit less exciting and try to improve the defence. And that's what they tried to do. And you had that weird period, I think, when Sala went off to the African Cup of Nations where they had a few draws, a few wins, but it was pretty dour, tough football to watch.

18:12But they just stopped creating chances. And technically, you can actually see the quality of their chances falling for a long time now. since last season. They don't create a high volume of high quality chances. So that has been an issue under slot and that relates to some of the stuff that he spoke about in terms of the Premier League more generally. But if you look at their ex-jupers shot, there are other teams that have higher quality of shots. So you go, actually, maybe you've got a specific issue. But nonetheless, the key thing is they had a very good attack and a poor defence and then they turned it into a team which now has a poor defence and a poor attack.

18:46And part of that comes from the intent, right? If you just put more defenders on the team, that doesn't necessarily make you a better defensive team, right? In fact, you've taken away from the qualities that made you good in the first place and sacrificed them for more mediocrity at the back. That's why I think it would have been better to play Salah last night and Eka TK and Virts and try and take PSG on as a football team and show your footballing qualities and attack. Yeah, you might lose, right? You might lose 3-0, but they should have lost 4-0 anyway, if we're completely frank. There might be more, Gregor Winsing next to me.

19:17Yeah, I don't know. I appreciate I've asked an impossible question but you know he has got as Tony said he's fighting for his future isn't he with the end of the season yeah but just on the sell point specifically we've had a couple of weeks saying less on this because I've been sitting in your chair and I said the other day I feel like Liverpool are almost playing with 10 men and I agreed with you on that didn't I and I think playing them now is a madness particularly against a team that's dynamic where everyone has to do something defensively for the team But do you agree with Hamza's assertion That he'd be better off at least going back to attacking Too much has happened That's in a dill Too much water has passed under the bridge Cody Gakpo is playing like Terribly That's the way you think Gakpo is playing Well he's a better attacking option than Salah That was weird last night seeing him come on instead of Salah Yeah I would put Gakpo on the team Absolutely But the problem is I can't see who they should play as wingers So if he wants to play The system that he really wanted to try and sort of seg you towards this season you need wingers and he doesn't have any unless you're going to play a 17 year old like every week or you're going to play Iketiki out wide now Isak's fit or something like that or keep trying to persevere with playing him on the left they don't have anyone to play as a winger so this is why he's trying to play this sort of narrower system and get more width from the full backs and it's not worked I find it hard watching a forward line that has lots of flicks and I jokingly said on Monday that Virts reminds me of a seal in the circus.

20:49We just want to carry it on his head sometimes. I wasn't being flippant about what I was trying to say. That's not a proper forward line to me. Even if you look at PSG and they're not most natural. I mean, I can remember some of the great forward lines that they've had in years gone by. But the forward line they have now is all built on dynamism. It's all built on pace and getting in behind teams. And they do it brilliantly well. You look at Liverpool's, it's built on trying to do a little trick and a flick. The amount of flicks I'm seeing inside that lose possession when you keep flicking. Absolutely.

21:22I mean, just to wrap up on this game, because I feel like we'll talk about Liverpool plenty more for the rest of this season. But just on PSG, first of all, it was lovely to see Kravat Scalia not go down for that penalty, wasn't it? When he was running through for his goal and just finish it off. But I've said it on this podcast before earlier in the league stage that I thought they were in first gear. I still think they're only in about third gear now. they look like they're kind of waltzing around the pitch we're going to come into some of the other quarterfinals in a second but PSG favourites for everyone at the moment as we stand him and Bayern Bayern look good too did they meet before the final?

21:53that would be the semi-final which is a shame let's bring in Bayern Munich now then a win in Madrid against Real Madrid and some star performances from Harry Kane and Michael Elise let's talk about Elise first Gregor I've dug out the piece that you wrote back in, let's see when the date was on this one December 2010 20? 2020 the guy would be 8 year old 2010 would be good I knew he was great at 8 2010 would have been very impressive indeed sorry, December 2020 best scout in the world Gregor Robertson said after Jude Bellingham and Iberici Eze is Michael Alise the next championship star on the charge predicting that the 18 year old Reading attacking midfielder would make it to the Champions League I'd say you didn't go far enough, Gregor No, yeah, I underplayed it It probably sounds a bit daft saying that about someone in the championship but Craigie, he was special, you knew he was special then Just different, really different and that was part of his kind of character too Part of his thing now is his shtick is how aloof he is and you see little things like the quirky thing his little pre-match routine where he steps onto the pitch just rubs his feet on the grass a bit and then walks straight back in down the tunnel that's like that's his way of now he says it's just like you know just to check whether it's a a stutter or a mould there's also been some good things in recent weeks of him trying to avoid media duties as well walking round the corner he's always done that I tried to interview him then and the press officer at Redham was like I really think it's a bad idea I'll ask but it's a bad idea what did you make of that at the time when you did interview him no I didn't I didn't get to oh you didn't get it oh wow because he was the same then like any time he was put a camera it was very rare occasions Paul McGraw Yeah, it just said one word answers and stuff.

23:40So that made you think, and you heard other things from teammates and stuff, and it made you question, I don't know, whether his difference would make, how far he would go. I don't know, it's hard to explain. He's clearly so confident and knows how much he belongs on a stage when he's on the pitch, but there's something that's a bit shy and introverted about him off the pitch. and so that made you wonder could he go all the way but when you saw him on the pitch he was just he was special yeah some of his touches but now obviously I made that joke about you didn't go far enough I mean he's he's literally like world beating contention now isn't he people are asking whether him or Laminio Mal are the best kind of players in the world and that's that's the kind of stage he's on now and when you go to the Bernabeu and you completely destroy them and Carreras the left back just the torches and and it's the way he has that, there's this inevitability when he drives inside of like something's going to happen yeah, either a pass that's going to be decisive or he just whips it into that far top corner but the thing about that as a defender is you know about that inevitability and he just cuts it down the line as well and he can skin you that way and then think of it Is that the I.M.

24:59Robbins scenario? A little bit, yeah, it is a little bit but he's a bit more kind of Langwood he can go both ways he's taller and bolt upright he's got a funny sort of gate to his stride and stuff as well so he's just different yeah he's really special Hamza he's a player you've written about this season after a trip to Germany to watch both him and Kane what do you make of him as a player Greg has talked about a uniqueness to his game is that a fair assessment yeah I mean in that first match that I watched them Leipzig played Leipzig played Bayern at the Leipzig Arena he came off the bench and he got a hat-trick of assists and a goal.

25:35It was just ridiculous. It was a really tight end-to-end match. It's a really tight match, but it was end-to-end, so it was really fascinating and it was 1-1 and then he comes on and the final score is 5-1 and you think, oh my God, if you're a Leipzig fan, we were really good and we just got hit by Storm Elyse and he was brilliant and that languid element to the way that he sort of strides around the pitch is really interesting because when you watch him live as well, you'll look at him specifically and watch him move and it looks it is effortless right and only when you look at the defender who's with him you realize that he's he's shooting off and the other guy around him is panting and struggling and you'll see that their motor functions are like all sketched out and sort of they're clawing for it and he just looks like he's above it all a regal player and Thomas Tuka was there and he must be thinking of all the ones that we let slip because he could have played for England.

26:36Yeah I think when I wrote that piece earlier this season I said that he was the best right wing in the world at the time so above Lamin you could probably argue the other way but I still feel pretty yeah I don't feel bad about that. In terms of numbers and output what is it 41 non penalty goal involvements. It's incredible that's above Harry Kane and one of them being in this match for Harry Kane with that driving run inside you think about front threes, Alise, Kane, Diaz as well, looking brilliant as well, talking about Liverpool missing some firepower that's pretty potent isn't it, that front three just one other thing on Alise as well, those two things he's turned his back on England and he's turned his back on the Premier League I think there'll be a little bit of a bit of snootiness about the way people view him as well, but he's crikey it's been proven it's been a great decision for him because he's showing it on the biggest stage that he belongs there and that speaks to his character though right like you said you just mentioned him as a person but as in to show that ambition actually shows a real and a willingness to turn your back on the Premier League for example shows an inner confidence as well irrespective how he speaks to Cameron when he made the move to Bayern there was a lot of people going oh what's he going to sit on the bench at Bayern for and you're like look at him now No, but can I just add something?

27:54Most important player in the team. I found it going abroad, and it happens to a few players, especially if they're quiet or, you know, unassuming lads in the dressing room. Well, you get left alone a lot. You don't have to do all the... You know, when I got there, all the French boys were doing all the stuff, the local newspapers, and you could just sit back, and you weren't in any clique in the dressing room. You were just literally doing your own thing, training, playing, and enjoying your life. And sort of, you know, and I've got Chris Mackin come. You probably wouldn't remember that name, Chris Mackin.

28:24He came to Marseille and he was a very unassuming lad. And he joined and he said, I love it. He said, I don't get bothered at all. You just work on your game. No, but yeah, just do your training, do your game, you know, and just play and not really. And there is something about being in a dressing room that you're not one of the lads. You can be, because you'd have a majority of German players. I know the football is very different now and you have lads from all over the world. But you tend to, you know, do your own thing and not be too much involved in all the groups and coming together. Because it could be bonding and overbonding, which I've been as well.

28:58I was at Chelsea, it was overbonding, which was like young lads, older lads and everybody. Don't want to hear about that. Back very briefly, just a quick word for Harry Kane as well. I feel like this happens on every kind of football piece of analysis. But what an unbelievable season he's having. I mean, in terms of his performances for Bayern, hopefully he can replicate them for England as well. Is there still this sense that Harry Kane is not quite, still not quite appreciated as much as he should be? Hamza, again, he was the subject of another one of your pieces. Matthew Syed's written about him this week in the Times as well.

29:29I mean, he's there in the Bernabeu, getting the praise and adulation from the Bayern travelling fans. I mean, is there a world in which Harry Kane is not just the best striker in the world, but one of the best players in the world as well? Yeah, definitely. When I went to Germany, I was actually quite struck about how the fans spoke about Kane. They were just like, yeah, he's our best striker ever. I was like, already? Really? Wow. Yeah, they're like, yeah, better than Lewandowski. He just does everything. And I was shocked at how frank they were about it. I mean, I believe it, right? But I didn't expect them to say it.

29:58And they were just like, yeah, he's just the best we've ever had. Can't believe we didn't get him earlier. What a shame. They believe that he's just the best. The way that he's playing is unbelievable. You can analyse any element of this game and there's just flicks of genius to any part. Even the way that he just walks off the ball. You'll see him just in a similar way to what Messi did this thing, where he would just walk better than players would run. You'd see all these players sprinting around him, and he would walk into space, and it would be the most dangerous space, and he would receive the ball, and then he'd go.

30:31And I'm thinking, how the hell does he do that? And Kane is the same. He spreads the ball, he jogs off, he jogs, and then the ball comes back to him, and you're like, oh God, he's in the most dangerous position, and he gets a shot off, and he scores. His goal was really nice, and I don't think he was at full fitness either, because he's just come back from a knock, which meant that he couldn't play for England. I think he's... Tony, what's your striker's take on? Well, look, if you're talking about his personality as well and you add into how loyal he is, because let's remember he stayed at Tottenham way longer than...

31:01I'm sure every club in the world was chasing him at one particular time. But he's always kept a level head. His feet were always on the ground. He doesn't ever going to be on the front page of a newspaper. He's always going to be on the back pages for scoring. He might be on the front of his scores to go in the World Cup finals or England win it. I think he's been lucky a couple of times where they've made finals England and you can tell he's not quite right. He's had a physical issue to deal with. You can see that in a couple of performances. But Harry Kane is up there with the very best. His record with England's extraordinary club record.

31:35And I think he leads the line brilliantly. He sees a pass. He's great in the air. He's a deadly finisher. He's up there with Shearer and how deadly he can be when the ball just drops. He'll eat it first time if he has to. And he's got that great difference between knowing when to take a touch and when not to. That's a skill. Absolutely. Very quickly, the company, the way that he manages his team is he lets the players take the decisions themselves. He's a really empowering manager. He wants to give them a structure and he gives them a few rules. For example, one of the rules that he says is you can play wherever you want.

32:07As in, if you're in the forward line, go wherever you want. I have one rule that he says, you have to finish in the box. That's it, right? But if you want to drop deep, you can go deep. If you want to go to left-back, you can go to left-back. If you want to go to right-back, whatever. You can do all that stuff. And he and his assistant manager are big on this idea that tactics are essentially just... They don't like to think of them as pieces on the tactics board. It's more about players making decisions in moments and trusting them and empowering them to make the right decisions or the best decisions.

32:37it's a school of thought that's appreciated by a few other managers well Tom Stuckel thinks about tactics in the same way about having a structure and then letting the individual sort of character of the player essentially play out on the field and that being how you change a game and I think the way that company manages these players is really interesting he says you're really good I trust that you're really good go out and show it and make those decisions and play... I want to jump in there because that's a really important thing. The company was a centre-half. So how would he know if Harry Kane senses a chance of when he should shoot and when he...

33:15He knows that's in Harry. So he's allowing him to be Harry because what he's doing, he's like, I'm a centre-half. I don't know how you do what you do, but I know you can do it. So you have to make the decision. Yeah, really empowering as well. He said the exact same thing to me because I asked him, as he finds space, he says, I don't know, but it's just like as a defender when you know where to be in the right place. I don't know exactly how it works in Harry's head, but it's an instinct, and I understand that defends instinct, and you've just got to let him do it. Absolutely brilliant. Really great insights into Vincent Kompany's tactical mind there as well, and should praise him as well for his clobber on the touchline, Greg.

33:50We're having that green jacket, aren't we? It's Masters week. Big, big. It was more Manchester Mad for It vibes, I think, Tony, that jacket. He turned up in a suit, you know, so he turned up in a suit, and then changed out of the suit. Oh, I love that even more. I love that even more. Just a quick word on one of the other quarterfinals and a striker as well. Julian Alvarez scoring a brilliant free kick in Atletico Madrid's 2-0 win in Barcelona. Barca obviously down to 10 men for half of this match. Hamza, I just wanted to quickly ask, and for all of us as well, it was a brilliant free kick from Alvarez and it made me wonder whether, is that the next iteration of the set piece of session?

34:22You know, we've had throw-ins, we've had corners, we've had crosses into the box. Are we now going to get every player being drilled on curling one into the top corner from 25 yards or is it too much of a risk option? We'd love that, but I don't think that's the case. I think when you just look at it... Would you love that? I don't think you would. I would. No, yeah. I hate set pieces. I write about them all the time. People don't get this. I hate set pieces. I like open play football. But you don't mind a free kick being curled into the top corner? If it's like a delicious, amazing free kick, yeah, of course.

34:49That's fantastic. But I think from an analytics perspective, what you're going to look at is you're going to take the shot location and you go, OK, what's the odds are you scoring from there? And then what are the odds if, for example, we cross a ball and the likelihood of getting a shot on goal or getting a flick on or a secondary shot or another shot from the third phase. And then you look at that sum and then you look at the other sum, the second sum being just the likelihood of scoring from that first shot, and you say, which one's greater? And usually it's the first one. It's the beauty of football, eh?

35:20Damn it. I really thought I was going to get a positive answer to that one, but never mind. Well, you can just enjoy watching Julian Alvarez's brilliant free kick. With loads more still to come, I'm going to talk about Arsenal against Sporting Lisbon, of course, but it's time for a quick break and it's time for a question from Bill Edgar's weekly quiz that you can do on the Times website. This one, I'm not going to lie, lads, is pretty tricky. Arsenal have not faced a penalty in their past 43 home league games and have not conceded one in 65 home league matches. The same opposing player was the last player to succeed and the last to fail, converting a spot kick on Boxing Day 2022, but having one saved in December 2023.

36:00I told you it was tough. Who is he? Find out after the break.

36:30app to virtually try on frames and get personalized recommendations to find your next favorite pair of glasses sunglasses or contact lenses or to locate your nearest warby parker store head over to warbyparker.com that's warbyparker.com

36:50welcome back to the game football podcast from the times and sunday times i'm tom clark and i've Tony Cascarino, Hamza Khalid Luna and Gregor Robertson with me. And I did say it was a tough quiz question. They were all stumped. Tony Cascarino just about technically, I'd say, said the correct answer, which was Saeed Benrahma missed and scored two penalties against Arsenal. Gregor Robertson absolutely fuming. The competitive side in him always comes out when it comes to quiz time. Now, let's just get a little bit of an exclusive for you on the game podcast. Alison Rudd, our colleague who always appears on Monday shows, has done an exclusive interview with Brighton manager Fabian Herzler.

37:28You can read it on the Times website, probably by the time you're listening to this show. But here's a little clip of something he had to say about one of his favourite players. Do you think Danny Welbeck should be at the World Cup? I think there's another great German coach who will make the right decision. But in the end, what I can say regarding Danny is, besides being a great goal scorer, his attitude is unbelievable. his skill and it's a skill for me of bringing people together is incredible he's like I call him the social leader what I mean with this is he's a great connector between the different ages between the different cultures and therefore you can't replace him because for every team no matter if it's for England for Brighton you always need these kind of players who connect people who need to make sure the right dynamic is in the team.

38:23We need to make sure let's say it's like a game after the quarterfinals and there are some frustrated players because they're not involved and then the next day there's training for these players who didn't play I'm 100 % sure that he will go 100%. So he makes sure that everyone is there, everyone is ready he makes sure beside the pitch that no one is there to

38:53make a bad environment and to make a bad mood. And I think that's something you need to have in every team in the world. Tony Hertzler talking there about Danny Welbeck. Much loved on this podcast and I think in all of football. But it's interesting to hear one of his managers talk about something that so many people often associate with him, which is good vibes, being a nice guy and how important that is. Do you think that does play a part in maybe England's selection? You know, we've had it before where Gareth Southgate has picked certain players to be part of leadership groups and things. You've been to major tournaments.

39:25Having that kind of player in the group, before we get on to his kind of ability on the pitch, having a player in the group that will lift everyone, keep the vibes high, is that important? Yeah, I think we had that with the Republic of Ireland. Was that you? Well, it may have been. Johnny Byrne and David Kelly, I can remember, playing in and always willing the lads on, by the way. It weren't a case of them... A hype man. You know, if you're sat on the bench, you're saying to people, go on, I'm here for you. You know, I'd like to think that Danny would be selected on his ability, obviously, as well.

40:00But yeah, having great lads around, I mean... I think they've already got a couple of them, haven't they? Yeah. Jordan Henderson, maybe Dan Byrne. Are we just selecting on vibes only? Well, you think then? I'd put Welbeck's vibes on both of them. Yeah, I was going to say. I would too, but obviously Tuchel doesn't. And then his ability as well. Well, then, just very quickly then, and, you know, We can read Alison's interview with Hurtzli. But just very quickly then on Welbeck, it's obviously been discussed. We've just had an international break, but would you take him, Tony? Yes, but I'm always going to be wanting to take him one more extra forward than most.

40:31You'd always throw an extra one. And if I had to take one and I thought that he could play a part in some way against... Obviously, the opposition you're playing against in the group stage and then the knockout is who would have the bigger effect on the team you're playing against. And Danny's proved at 34 that he's still flying and looks probably as good as any of them of holding the ball up. And he's an aerial threat as well. He gets a number of headers over his career. Hamza? Yeah, I think he's, if you want a second choice, number nine, I think he's the best of the ones that England have. Watkins is slightly different.

41:07They are all different in different ways, which is good. You don't want two of the same type, really, because then you just have one who's just not as good as the other type, the same as but I think Welbeck offers nice movement in the box he doesn't run in behind as much but his hold up play is really good so he's I think he's a better option than Calvert-Lewin on set pieces and because of his link plays he's more useful as well and if you really want to change things up then you just put Foden or Palmer or Bellingham as the false nine but I think he should be the second choice Gregor? No Why?

41:39Take someone else instead? I'd take Oli Watkins and only just but I would take him because he's been to the major tournament before. He's had an impact. I actually think he's quite a good sub as well. Welbeck has been to the form. You can't take them both, Greg. No. There he is, the striker addict over there. Throw them all in. No. He wouldn't have been guilty of not taking it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You could take it. Yeah, but we've had this debate in recent weeks as well. Yeah, of course. Martin Samuel wrote a column illustrating the fact that you could, like, you know, you're better playing someone like Anthony Gordon through the middle if Harry Kane's not playing.

42:12If Harry Kane's not playing, it's a disaster. Let's be clear about that. So who are you starting after that? It's a different question. I don't think it's ever Danny Wilbeck. Yeah. It's always that you need to score one more. I'm with Tony, right? You want to score one more goal. That's a disaster scenario, right? You're chasing a game. It's never, oh, we're winning and we need to defend, so let's bring on our fifth defender, right? Forget the fifth defender. Yeah. Get an extra attacker in because that's how you win a World Cup. You don't defend a World Cup because you've never used it. They're going to have lots of attackers.

42:39They'll have a lot of forwards, a lot of wide forwards, a lot of people who can play number 10. the fact is if Harry Kane's not playing it's a massive drop off so who's the next best starter? Ask yourself that question for me it's Oli Watkins OK I'll just add on that I mean if you look at Italy in 1990 Vialli was easily the most comfortable number nine for Italy ends up being Scalacci came in from nowhere and you know you could argue that the French when they won in 98 with Givash no one knows that Givash played up front for France and he was not even as good as, in my opinion, as Danny Welbeck.

43:15Danny Welbeck had more. But there's others along the way where you don't necessarily need to have someone as great as Harry Kane, but have someone who's very versatile. And he's the most versatile. Whatever we say, I'd say I would take three forwards and it would be Olly Watkins, obviously Kane, and then if Welbeck was the third one, he would be in front of, for me, the two doms, Solanke and Calvert-Lewin. Really interesting. Well, you can read Fabian Herzler He's got plenty more to say, not just on Danny Welbeck. You can read that on the Times website, that exclusive interview with Alison Rudd.

43:49And if you've got views on which strikers England should take to the World Cup, get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Speaking of the World Cup, we are doing a live show, a live game podcast in London on May 26th. Martin Samuel will be there. Johnny Northcroft will be there. Unfortunately, I'll be there as well. But you can get tickets at thetimes.com slash events. Go and check out that address now and secure your tickets and come and listen to us waffle on about football for a little bit. Now, back to the Champions League. We've got a final game to discuss and it's Arsenal's 1-0 win against Sporting Lisbon.

44:21In some ways, the perfect smash and grab. In other ways, the way Arsenal season's going, still people managing to find ways to criticise them. But actually, I mean, I'm coming at this one going Champions League quarterfinal, first leg, away from home, clean sheet, late winner, absolute perfection. Tony? Yeah, and I mean, it was just... Perfections are perfect. Perfection is an interesting choice of what for that game. Well, I mean, I chose to watch the game. In terms of the outcome, perfection. In terms of the outcome. You don't want to talk to me now. I'm just going back at him because he's...

44:55You've asked me a question. I've only been back after that. I was gutted I ignored the other game on, right? I thought, I'm going to watch Arsenal because I know I'll be talking about it on Thursday and it was quite painful in the eye, which we can know. But one thing that... you look at Rowe in goal and the save he makes early on in the game it's so vital because the way they lost to the League Cup final and the way they lost to Southampton you've got a goalkeeper that is clearly fundamental in Arsenal's chances of winning anything not only the league but if they go even further in the Champions League he's producing world-class saves so often for Arsenal and that's the masterstroke behind because we might talk about Rice and we might talk about whoever's player of the season but he could easily be by the end of the season I think Semenya's been as good as anybody but if I ever say one player that's totally stood out for me I think he's made one mistake all season which was the Wolves game where he comes and misses doesn't quite get it but I thought he was outstanding and look whatever we think that's a great result you know it just is because they were dangerous you could see that they offensively were really quite a direct team at times.

46:09Gregor, on that topic of Arsenal's most important player, it's just one that we've come back to many times. You've extolled the virtues, obviously, of Gabriel, and he is obviously a huge part of this team. But do you think, Tony, makes the case that as the season heads towards crunch time, we might start seeing that David Raya is actually their most important player? Well, yeah, and particularly when you talk about who the backup is, and we've just seen the evidence of that in the last two games. so yeah he's been huge for them and he made some great saves in this game and he has done throughout the season he's got great reflexes so lithe and agile he was signed with a big focus on being so good with the ball at his feet but he's great at all those things there was times where you thought is he big and physical enough to come set pieces to come and claim he's obviously well protected too but you never see him really struggling in that regard and I remember people saying when he arrived he looks like an outfield player when he's got the ball at his feet the way he collects the ball a lot of goalkeepers, they'll receive a pass they stop it, then they turn round and they pass it he does it in one movement like an outfield player like a midfielder at the base of it so he's got that and he's contributing in hugely match-winning saves.

47:35He's been massive for them. Gary Jacob poses a question after going to this game in a piece on the Times website that maybe Raya is the best in the world, one of the best. I mean, it's always hard. We did it with Elise in the first half of the show and obviously you have to mention players like Jamal as well. So it doesn't have to be he is the absolute best, but he's very much up there. Manuel Neuer at 40 put in a brilliant performance for Bayern Munich as well, didn't he? Where do we see the kind of goalkeeper conversation in terms of some of the best in the world, Hamza? Yeah, I put him up there with some of the best.

48:03So him, Courtois, Neuer, Alisson. They actually all have this thing and you only sort of notice it if you support the team, I guess. When a player is put through against that goalkeeper, most supporters will feel an anxiety. Oh no, an opposition striker is through on goal. A goalkeeper has to make a save. But when watching Alisson at his best, or actually when I watched Neuer a few months ago, right? You just have this sense of you lean back, you relax. Why? It's because it's Neuer, it's Alisson, it's Courtois. And they, in those moments, just make saves that they have no right to and other keepers wouldn't.

48:44And it gives you a confidence and that relaxing element that doesn't compare. It's like when you're like came through one goal. It's the exact reverse of that, just with a goalkeeper. and yeah and Raya at the moment I mean that save that he made down to his left late on again so agile, so live, so quick to spring off his feet and then get down yeah I think he's brilliant at the moment and like Greg has said the claiming ability that he has I think is probably the best in the league the way that he kills all crosses into the box, takes his thing out of them, his distribution is very good his close range shot stopping is really good, long range I think is maybe the one weakness and even then it's not a significant weakness it's a small weakness See goalkeepers are scrutinised more than any other position and if you go back to looking at Courtois when Real Madrid won the Champions League about how brilliant he was you're going to have to go back last year with Donnarumma at PSG had amazing he was the reason why they won it as good as what they were in the final if you go back to previous games Donnarumma made massive save for PSG Liverpool game yeah exactly so you know and is Raya going to do that for Arsenal this year to have an extraordinary tournament and ends up enabling them to win it.

50:00Because there's a lot of evidence from goalkeepers and Neuer is a great goalkeeper. And Alisson, I think Edison, you could probably put in there as well. The thing is, they're all coming to a certain age or are at a certain age. Neuer, Alisson, you know, Courtois. Courtois as well, yeah. Although Courtois has actually had some big games in this tournament already so far. So, like, you're still seeing how great he is. I think he's been the best for a few years now, Courtois. but there were signs he's had an injury there were signs he's starting to win and Raya is someone who's in the reckoning to be his replacement as number one in the world really In terms of Arsenal then and I'm going to talk about another player in a minute in Kai Havertz but Tony you've kind of posed the question there about Raya taking them all the way we talked about Bayern and PSG are Arsenal now we're looking at these quarterfinals and some of these performances and thinking they are still in that bracket in that category of contenders to win it or are they a notch down because of recent games and performances?

50:55Where do we see them, do we think? Yeah, I put them a notch down. I mean, obviously when they won the whole group stage, you know, flawless basically, and everything was rosy in the Premier League. It's like, things change. This football changes quickly. PSG, after winter, seemed to sort of blossom. And they've done it again this year. And Bayern, as we discussed, are just a ridiculously good front three. so Arsenal are in a bit of a sticky situation at the moment. This was a big win against a team who have won I think it's like their last 17 home matches in a row not lost at home in the Champions League this season so it was a big result as well as the context of their last two games but it still wasn't a convincing performance.

51:41But with the way the draw has panned out as we mentioned in the first half of the show they're not facing Bayern or PSG until a potential final or would we still see them as favourites to get to a final, do we think? Yeah, I mean, you're going to have one of the greatest celebrations of football you've ever seen with PSG Bayern Munich, and then one of the worst ever, between Atletico Madrid and Arsenal. Who doesn't want the ball most?

52:09I don't want to watch that match. I honestly might send Hamza to that game now, just because of having the power to do the match list. Hamza's going to that second leg. Go on. Have you looked at the front threes of the other teams involved? You'd probably say Arsenal have the worst three, would you say? I think that's fair, actually. They're not the worst out of all of them, but if you think of Bayern and PSG... The least good, sorry. Yeah, the least good. They definitely have an advantage in that area. Because we only talked about Julian Alvarez's free kick, but he's been brilliant this season as well.

52:40And he is a star. I watched him against Spurs, I was at that game, and seeing him up close, he's really intelligent in his movement and stuff until he drops deep to get on the ball and gives defenders difficult decisions. See, I would think there's still a bit left in Barcelona more than, you know, even though they have to go away. I still think Barcelona as sort of a side, if they got it right in the night, could still knock Atletico out. They nearly did in the cup recently, yeah. Was it 4-1 in the first game or something? Wasn't it 3-0 on them? It was 4-0, I think, in the first leg. Yeah, 4-0 up for Atletico and they won three, didn't they?

53:12Yeah, in the second leg, yeah. So just coming back to finish with Arsenal and you mentioned their forward line there, Tony. Kai Havertz with an excellent goal off the bench as well. We're talking about this game, but Martinelli, brilliant driving run, lovely pass, lovely finish. Kai Havertz, you know, started the season, everyone talking about Jokeres being the signing, the final jigsaw piece, etc. And we're ending it going, actually, they need Kai Havertz in this team if they're really going to function and work well. Hamza, this is something you'd actually talked about back when Jokeres was signed.

53:38Kai Havertz is going to be pretty important to Arsenal finishing this season strongly, isn't he? Well, I was going to say, all his career he's been that. when he's not there he's needed and when he's there he's not needed so much and then suddenly reappears again he is like so is that under appreciation then or just a lack of understanding of his game well if you'd have taken before this game this week Arsenal fans would have a frustration of he's not quite good enough Chelsea fans had that years ago where they couldn't quite work out if he was really vital to them or he wasn't quite as good and it's been that and then he won the Champions League for them as well yeah but there was also this idea as well when he was playing centre-forward for Arsenal illuminated the fact that they didn't have a centre-forward and he's not really an archetypal centre-forward.

54:22I've just spent 15 minutes or whatever extolling the beauty of PSG, who play with Dembele. Is Dembele really a centre-forward? No. Does he play centre-forward, even if he is one? No. If the team functions better with him in it and that's sort of fluidating the rotations, then Arsenal are a better team for it as well. Just answering your own question there, you'd think they do. they're at their best with Havertz in the team I think they were a lot better last season with him in the team in terms of a fluid attack and a functional attack and actually I think they're a better team with Giochrez not in it In my view 100 % a better team with Havertz in, that doesn't necessarily make them a really good attack because I think the attacking impetus as we've covered before and we've written about comes from the manager so when you compare Luis Enrique to Artessa they're very very different in the way that they conceptualise football and they think about playing with the ball.

55:17Mikel thinks a lot more about set pieces Luis Enrique likes to attack in open play, he likes to open teams up, he wants to use the wide areas to get back into the centre Mikel much prefers going up the wide areas and then crossing into the box and having cutbacks so those things are more about the intent and the approach of the manager and I think that's why as an attacking unit PSG are much better than Arsenal. That's not to say Arsenal can't be a really fluid, fun, entertaining attacking unit. It's just that they don't play like that because the manager believes having that better balance, in his view, between attack and defence and having a...

55:55He believes essentially by having an OK attack but an amazing defence. The difference between the two is greater than if you have an amazing attack and an OK defence. We haven't even mentioned Bayern's attack, have we? No, we haven't. We've waxed lyrical earlier. You know, Bayern's attack is very traditional to... I know Kane will drop off but it's a very offensive front three it's a proper front three in a traditional sense of five or ten years ago isn't it on Arsenal though one other thing it's a big end of the season for Odegaard too I think because it's been a really sort of stop-start season for him not really having the same impact on the team there's not really always been the relationship with him and Saka and the team at the same time as well if you put Saka back in that front line and Havertz up front and you've got Odegaard playing well then Arsenal are a different team there's still hope lots of hope and in terms of Odegaard playing well then you think he's not been playing well or he needs to step up and show he's the leader for Arsenal in the way that Rice has in the way that Gabriel has it's hard to say to him when you miss so much football and he has missed a lot even going back to last season he had a big chunk of the season out injured so he's not quite recovered he's not been as impactful I think it's difficult in that system some people might say well Max Damman plays really well but Max Damman is really really good but I think we've seen a lot of good players, Eze is another example of a really good attacking player in that system like I said, because it's not that much of an attacking open play system, it's harder for a player like Eze or Odegaard to really shine as they would in another system We'll see whether it's Havertz or Odegaard can get some minutes and a big game for Arsenal against Bournemouth on Saturday just looking at the return of the Premier League fixtures this weekend, there's loads of absolutely massive games starting with West Ham against Wolves on Friday night then you've also got Liverpool against Fulham as well there's another game on Saturday then some absolutely huge games on Sunday Chelsea against Manchester City under pressure Newcastle and Eddie Howe are going to Crystal Palace you've got Sunderland against Tottenham what's the biggest game of the weekend guys what do we think West Ham winning puts Tottenham in the bottom three so then I think it's the Tottenham game West Ham might not win but just seeing what De Zerbe is going to make of this West Ham I think that's the most intriguing with De Zerbe coming in and seeing you know we all go spring in the step of a new manager and, you know, adopt slightly different attitude.

58:14But it is because Tottenham have been so bad for so long. I guess it also depends on kind of what version of Sunderland turn up, doesn't it, Gregor? I mean, they've been brilliant at the stadium and like for so long, but they have tailed off slightly, got that big win, obviously in the derby against Newcastle a couple of weeks ago, which kind of rejuvenated their season. So it depends what Sunderland team turn up against this Tottenham side. I mean, West Ham Wolves really just set off the weekend, doesn't it, in terms of, as you said, Gregor, talking points. if West Ham can win, all eyes on Tottenham and all the relegation-threatened teams down the bottom.

58:46In terms of Chelsea-Man City, that's another massive game, quite quietly, isn't it? I'm not mentioning because of the relegation battle and things. Do we see Chelsea taking any points off City? Well, they're capable. They're definitely capable. Unfortunately, I'm repeating myself so often, is how I see Chelsea, and they're not a team of 60-plus minutes. They've got moments in their game, I come by thinking they're a really good side. and then in a 20-minute period it can literally go. I mean, Rhys James, is he back fit yet? Still quite a way off. Yeah. Hamza? I think the interest in that match depends on Arsenal-Bournemouth.

59:22If Arsenal do drop points, then Chelsea City becomes a fantastically entertaining one to watch that could open the door up for City because they've built up that head of steam. They were fantastic against Liverpool. They showed signs. They're really good in the League Cup final. so yeah if Arsenal drop points then that becomes a fantastic match and that will become the match of the weekend if not though then I don't think it's that interesting yeah yeah all eyes on Arsenal and maybe also on Friday night with West Ham Wolves as well we'll leave it there Tony Cascarino Hamza Khalid Luna and Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening we'll be back on Monday to discuss that massive weekend of action we'll see you then

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