Are Arsenal the only team not in transition?

0:04Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. Chelsea were beaten 3-1 by Lowly Leeds United at a raucous Ellen Road on Wednesday night, denting Enzo Maresca's flickering hopes of mounting a title challenge. Erling Haaland scored his 100th Premier League goal in record breaking time as Manchester City held off a Fulham fight back to edge a 9-goal epic and Aston Villa climbed to third after coming from behind to beat Brighton in a 7-goal thriller. But after another win and another clean sheet for Arsenal against Brentford, can anyone give Mikel Arteta's side a run for their money?

0:37We'll be discussing that and all the rest of the action from a packed midweek of fixtures Plus we'll be looking ahead to Friday's World Cup draw I'm Gregor Robertson and joining me in the studio today we have the Sunday Times football correspondent Johnny Northcroft And the former Chelsea and Aston Villa striker and Times columnist Tony Cascarino Guys, good to have you here, another packed midweek of action Yeah, quite enough Headline in the Times from Leeds victory against Chelsea much for lifeless Chelsea Tony yeah back to earth with a bump for Enzo Mureska's side after obviously a really positive week win against Barcelona huge plaudits from the draw against Arsenal this is the kind of game where they just seem to come unstuck well it would have been really hard to predict that they'd go to Leeds and get beat 3-1 because there's been no evidence of that of late Chelsea have had loads of energy he made changes Mureska said it himself straight away not good enough everything was wrong No positives.

1:38No, no positives at all. You know, the first goal was a set piece. And, you know, Chelsea had got two big centre-halves, Badder Steele and obviously Toussaint, a big centre-halves, that you'd expect to stop the main threats of Leeds. And they got in trouble because they nearly conceded a second one from a set piece as well. It was a night to forget for Chelsea. And would raise huge question marks, not only with punditry, but Chelsea fans because Chelsea look really good of recent weeks. You know, Caicedo's always going to be a massive loss to them. Fernandes was so off the pace. He really, and Fernandes I really like.

2:18I think he's a top player. He decided to leave Neto out. He put, obviously, De Lapp came in, dropped, I'll say, dropped Pedro. And this was to me a typical consequence of squads, even with, you know, a big depth of players who have had to make changes that when they make the changes, they suffer. That was the standout feature of the game because they were second best nearly ever on the pitch last night. What do you think, Johnny? I mean, this is... You know, we had Pete Rotzer on the other week and he was, you know, we're trying to get him to nail down our Chelsea title champs. He said, actually, the biggest, most impressive result for me in the last week or the week and a half was the win at Burnley.

2:57That was ahead of the Barcelona game and then, you know, the Arsenal game. That's where they keep coming unstuck and it's kind of happened again. Yeah and it always happens this time of year doesn't it I mean look Chelsea are the youngest still the youngest team I think in the Premier League you still see a team that's kind of growing a little bit lacking in enough I think really sort of solid experience big characters to be reliable when they're not in the team and it wasn't you know Carseido has been so good Rhys James was so good alongside him against Arsenal and it wasn't a surprise that they dropped a level when they were out the side.

3:39I guess Maresco would tell you he's got a really big squad so he needs to rotate. But I kind of agree with where Tony's going on that, which is this maybe wasn't the game to do it. And I know rotation's planned out in these days of periodisation and planning players' minutes and the physical side of it weeks in advance. but given the point Chelsea got to they'd got onto Arsenal's coattails they'd had that great week maybe this was one just to try and win I saw Leeds at the weekend against City and I kind of wonder if Maresco hadn't Maresco hadn't because Leeds were difficult in the second half they played 5-3-2 against City caused them all sorts of problems looked very different to a Daniel Farkey team and Farkey put the same team on the pitch last night and played in the same way and it was as if Chelsea weren't really prepared for that as Tony says set piece a mistake that comes from being pressed and they just look vulnerable but again I go back to youth inexperience a drop off from the big players when you're going from Casado and James in the middle to Andre Santos and Fernandes who's not for me really he's an attacking midfielder he's a box crashing goal scorer more than anything else that's a big drop off in the middle against a difficult team I've been saying this for about a decade and I feel like I'm getting a bit bored of saying it but Leeds going two up front and doing that against City and then doing it last night Ellum Road and having an effect and making centre-halves go do you know what we're not so comfortable now we have this one we can look after because he's on his own and he can't do everything but just going we'll put two up there and just see how they're handling I think it's a big thing for Daniel Farker if he can find and they work with Calvary Lewin and forgive me but I'm not great at pronouncing his name Lucas Nemecha Nemecha yeah Lucas Nemecha just having them two there and being a presence I was so delighted with that what was in the press conference at City Farker was asked by one of the Leeds beat reporters 5-3-2 look really good why haven't you played two up front before and he went oh well if it was that easy you know just play it too often and then he goes and does it and it works it's interesting though because as you say they knew they're necked a draw not necked a draw I mean Phil Foden had to score an injury time to win it for City they're just beating Chelsea they've got Liverpool next to Ellen Road who would have thought those three games could be the ones that turn around lead season and by the way if you're a Liverpool's defence you are thinking we can score against them no problem at all if we go with it so it was just I love seeing the idea of a two up front again.

6:26I want someone to do it and I want a team to be successful doing it. And if it's Leeds, great, because it's something that gives defenders something else to think about. Too many defenders are comfortable playing in the way they do, having the extra body in midfield, a protector in front of them. And I'm thinking, can someone just ruffle a few feathers? Yeah, certainly does that. I mean, Gouardiole on Saturday was in all sorts of trouble. He was, I'd say, very much a capsule. It's a modern centre-back, doesn't he? A lovely footballer. is he really is he really a sort of first contact guy is he really a defender you know as I say he's got great attributes but maybe that one-on-one physical defending isn't one of them and then happened to Tosin and Baddie Shield didn't it so and Liverpool are prime targets at the moment for that kind of treatment it'd be interesting it's interesting to see it's Daniel Farker as well who you associate with a completely different style you know there were rumours of kind of under pressure this is a game potentially that could have cost him his job if he lost but as I say who would have thought those games would be potentially a turnaround for Leeds United it's a bit of a week of it Gregor really because we've seen a lot of games already over the last 24-8 hours where there's a lot of goals going on there's lots of changes and everyone seems to be utilising their squad and finding out they're getting a bloody nose good link Tony let's go on to Craven Cottage 5-4 to Manchester City Manchester City were 5-1 up at one point it's just bonkers bonkers game obviously Haaland joining the 100 club is the big headline from this Johnny like 111 games it's faster than anyone in the competition's history Shearer took 124 games I mean we do it's extraordinary we have this we kind of debate Haaland and his sort of presence in this Man City team we have done for his whole time at the club but the numbers are extraordinary yeah I don't think we've seen a a finisher like him as an all round footballer yeah there have been much better strikers, forwards in the Premier League Thierry Henry springs immediately to mind but as a killer if you want to put it that way I think he is out on his own he very rarely scores in a way that you think he's that bobbled in he really finishes, he bangs it in the corner he doesn't have any doubt when he does it scores all sorts of goals he's got there through you know he's had his little runs of bad form again going back to the game I saw on Saturday he toiled because didn't get any service because what he can't do is come deep and make something himself he needs his team to be given service but his patience is amazing for a young player and his mental resilience I suppose to have a bad game or to have a period in a game where he doesn't touch the ball and then be there when he needs to you're right what you're saying about he doesn't come that's what made actually the second goal quite really jarring in this was he dropped deep and he barged I think Joachim Andersson tried to get too tight barged him off the ball opened up a bucket space and he slipped through rounders and you think you used to see him doing that at other clubs he doesn't really do that very often but he's got that in his locker as well hasn't he Tony?

9:38Do you know the most extraordinary thing I find out I feel about Haaland is that when I first saw Usain Bolt I kept thinking you're 6 '5 you shouldn't be a sprinter you shouldn't be 100 metre champion. And he ended up being that and a 200. And it's a bit like Ireland. When he's six foot five, you think, eh, he shouldn't be that quick. He just shouldn't. And he is. And with that, he, like, as Jonathan said there, he's finishing for someone so big, he's meant to be ungainly and awkward. And all these words that use my brigade, my union for big strikers, he is a freak in himself because Peter Crouch wasn't particularly quick, nor was Andy Carroll and many, many others, me included.

10:20But he is a contradiction to that. He's so quick for someone of that size. I mean, you know the striker's mind. I mean, I think if you haven't been a striker, it's a mystery to be honest, right? Most of them are a bit like goalkeepers nuts. Yeah, well, there's something mentally different about strikers, isn't there? So I watched Liverpool last night and Isak was doing absolutely nothing. But then the ball dropped him a couple of times and the shot was perfect. Both times got charged down. but it was like somebody just clicking into the mode they need to be in. And Halland's an extreme example of that.

10:53The ungainliness disappears when he gets involved. Well, I learned, Jonathan, I play with Clive Allen, Kerry Dixon, Teddy Sheridan, played in, funny after my career, a bit with Papan as well, John Aldridge with Ireland, Frank Stapleton, and some Robbie Keane, Dwight York. I could miss a whole lot. And they all had something in them that was slightly different, but that seeing that I mean Aldridge was a strange one because John wouldn't he'd be okay with this because John wasn't that gifted okay but it was unbelievable in front of goal one or two touch he always knew when to take two take a touch and score or not to take a touch and score he was brilliant there I used to say I don't know how you do it John you just seem to know when it's right and wrong the you know of seeing things quickly and he was good in the air I'd watch someone like Robbie Robbie Keane who was very much at a moment he'd see something can then go Clive Allen was the best finisher I ever saw by a country mile you didn't even want to do training sessions with Clive Allen because he was such a good finisher because it was perfect he'd call he'd say bottom right as the ball was coming he'd go bottom right and he'd ping it in the bottom right and he was like does he do this after knowing him a long time I was with him for Chelsea at least a couple of years and I saw Clive I went to QPR as a kid, was about 15, 16.

12:18And the two reserve strikers that were in training doing a practice session was Paul Goddard and Clive Allen. And I remember looking at them and thinking, they're only a year and a half, two years older than me, thinking, I'll never be that good. They were frightening. And I was right. Anyway, but my point is that strikers all live on, breathe off of confidence of scoring. But there are some that just have this, as Jonathan said, they come alive in a moment. I remember the the lads who were on the City tour I think they were in America the summer that Haaland signed I remember them saying like they're watching him in his first training session joining the rondos and it was it was embarrassing for him he was good you know his butt was bobbling off his shins and City had some like under 18s involved who were just popping it around him and you're thinking oh dearie me you know but that's not what he does no it's a different scenario isn't it in front of 60 ,000 and some people just grow and he does grow 6 foot 5 and other players in the goals at the moment is Phil Foden and what did this result in this performance say if anything about Man City I mean like yeah Flory's in front of goal and then almost threw it all away they're fragile aren't they I tell you what they're the most fun team in the Premier League said that a few weeks now they've gone from being like you know perfection becomes dull to watch at times they've gone from that to just being sort of extravagantly gifted and also deeply floored.

13:44I mean, I think they're pretty terrible against the transition even now, against the ball. Not great. They don't have... I don't know. It's a mental thing, isn't it? But that ability to just shut a game down and close it off, that doesn't seem to be there with them. They let teams back in, but I mean, you have to say Fulham after going 5-1 down played really well. Chukwazy. Chukwazy. he's a player isn't he what a player he is and he almost equalised but yeah it was a great game it said a lot about the Premier League I think at the moment I was looking at the top four and you've got Arsenal if you do the projected points you've got Arsenal obviously out by themselves they'd get 90 points everyone else though it's like City would be 76 points Chelsea in fourth 65 points I mean these aren't these are low totals and I just think it's it tells us how much the bigger teams are being challenged and probably how floored apart from Arsenal they all are as well at the moment I think the conversation we had a couple of months back is potentially a bit of a levelling up going on we sort of brought into that the promoted teams looking better that's not necessarily proven to be you know and we'll see time will tell on that but there is a broader sort of picture of the middle class because they've been there for so long and they you know you know had the money rolling in for you know a number of years they're able to challenge now it makes for a more exciting league potential it's great isn't it I mean it's the quality of players that the middle teams have got you know Chiquizzi what a player would be able to bring off the bench when you're 14th in the Premier League yeah I think also with the exception of Arsenal it's maybe a unique moment where everyone else is in transition you know Liverpool we'll get on to deep in transition but Chelsea have got this you know the young squad that's on a journey and City are transitioning away from pet ball and an older squad.

15:42Tottenham goodness knows. And so you go. So it's a two, there's a kind of 2015-16 feel to the bigger teams apart from Arsenal. And then you've got the middling teams. Well, it's chaotic, isn't it? Yeah. That's what we've witnessed. All different clubs, except Arsenal are the only one that seems very assured. You can say they're going to beat Wentford. They're going to win. It'll probably be 1-0, 2-0. You sort of felt that before the game. everyone else you're playing getting games we're scraping around to find who the challenger's going to be so let's move on to Aston Villa shall we step forward Aston Villa maybe they're on a ridiculous run they feel to win any of their first six games they've won 12 and lost two of their last 14 games since then up to third they host Arsenal on Saturday six points behind them what do you think Johnny is that a step too far I don't know I mean those Arsenal I think I've been the last three of them that fixture's one of the best in the season that Aston Villa v Arsenal Tactical battle as well Yeah and there's a little bit of history there now there was the row between the the technical staffs a few years ago in the press box there's a little for whatever reason there's a tiny bit of needle and it's been a great fixture the last three years I think it'll be brilliant on Saturday Villa are a funny one because I've got plenty of mates who are Villa fans living in the Midlands and they're all saying well we haven't played well we haven't played well yet you know I mean this is Lots of goals from outside the box although they weren't last night they looked like they played well last night I mean I watched the Liverpool game more than more than the other ones and only saw the highlights but they looked like and Ollie Watkins looked like he was back well that's big for for Villa too Tony you've said you know Ollie Watkins is someone who you've been a big fan of and you've often gone to in the hope of writing a piece I call him about him yeah no I asked before the game last night I said to Tom who does all that work for us puts us all on games and I said I want to do the Villa because they're they're not being talked about and then they go I'm going to Brighton and we're talking about them.

17:39But you mentioned the early games and they drew a lot. Saw them get beat by Crystal Palace at home 3-0 in the Premier League and it was like, wow, this guy's got no money. They've hardly spent anything. They had to sell Ramsey to Newcastle. Very little ins and outs of the football club. It felt like an embargo, although it wasn't. He's basically at the place where Arnie Slott was at the year before, where Arnie Slott didn't do much. and Unai Emery hasn't done much in the market at all and somehow I don't think they scored in the first four Premier League games they took a long time to score I think they didn't score in the first four and they looked like they were absolutely on the floor and from there we've now seen and he's made changes he obviously got he parted with some of the wide men that he had and that Marlan has come in and whether he's been on the bench he's come into the team and adds a bit of spice to the forward line sometimes played him again on the right Oli's been left out.

18:37Oli's been left out. Only one game before, one goal, Premier League goal before last night. You know, so he's had a sticky start. If Oli Watkins gets going and Villa continue to play as well as that, John McGinn's been massive for them. Yeah, yeah. John McGinn's probably played his best football this season because he's one of them, you know, whether it's with Scotland or whether it's Villa, I always think he leads when he's on the rest of the team. I think Matty Cash has come on leaps and bounds. There's a lot of good things about the Villa. I'm excited just because I want Villette to go well as a bias towards being the next player there when 1990 we come second and I joined late in that time in March in the old transfer deadline.

19:21But we need a Midlands club to go really well. I think they've got a chance because like we've just touched on, there's clubs that are going to drop points. That's clear that it's going to drop a good number of points. And if Villette have any stability in what they're doing now, they'll have a real chance of getting champions late Gesson had a nice assist last night and that would help him if he could come good Rodgers looked like he was a bit more himself he had a great through ball for Watkins and he was really getting involved again from my life he looked like he was really getting involved at both ends second finish Watkins was frightening that is a player that suddenly he's got the bit between his teeth first goal since September we should say as well Brighton were on 10 game unbeaten run at home and a good run generally yeah 2-0 up and then Oli Watkins obviously got that double to get them back in the game Me and you Gregor we've chatted about Brighton numerous times when we've been to the game Brighton for me are the great test for everybody I always think if I want to assess a team I want to see them play Brighton because I think Brighton ask a lot of questions of you in many different ways by the way they approach the game their physicality the pace of their side I always think Brighton are a real stern test to see where you are Okay shall we go on to Arsenal then you know everyone's chaos everywhere and then it's 2-0 to the Arsenal.

20:34Almost 1-0 to the Arsenal but then obviously Sacco got a second in injury time. Michael Mourinho kind of in Arsenal's time of need without a striker when Gioquez was injured he's in the last you know a month I think it's in November and now into December four goals and three assists as a striker. Yeah. He gives them a different dynamic too doesn't he? They've seen a bit more fluid up the top end of the pitch. Yeah he does. He links play but I mean he went back and played in central midfield towards the end of the game as well which shows his versatility he times a run so well to get on the end of this process What is that goal?

21:08It's a perfect striker's goal if you were to show young players how to get a goal by running across the line of the ball and getting him across the player, you'd go show Mourinho's goal so this idea that he ain't a striker he can play striker I've seen enough about him to go he can get goals in that position regularly Will he keep Jochenes out of the team? Will he keep Havre out of the team? I think he's a more convincing alternative than Havertz to a true nine if you want to call it that yeah I think he could keep Jokers out they do seem to be more fluid at the top of the pitch with them I thought it was a really big win for Arsenal ominous for the rest of the league the rest had obviously Saka Eze Timber from the start they're the one exception to what Tony was saying teams that change look like you can tell Arsenal less so well I mean they've spent a lot of money to get here and it's been very strategic by Arteta and what he did in the summer and I have to say this is Captain Hindsight talking because in the summer I thought why is he just buying the same player he's already got one of them he's bought another one but actually he was I think he saw what we didn't which was the 25 man squad the need to have a true alternative in every position Maduecki was really good in the opening phase of the game Ben White as well Ben White came in as if he'd been playing for the last three years I mean Hincapie and Mosquera Mosquera went off but what pair they are to be a third fourth choice centre backs and that's you know those little incremental improvements going from Kivior who wasn't bad to Mosquera who's just a bit better you know to bring in Maduecki when you weren't really sure if you needed another wide player it's great score building and I suppose the certain half still now as you said Mosquera went off Saliba and Gabriel injured might be getting stretched there what do you think they do Calafiore in one and Lewis Kelly left back still not a bad alternative I feel like he's built an international squad like as in an international big sides like England have a squad of quality in every position doubled up and you can we all debate oh what's England's best 11 who plays where it feels like for me Arteta's gone we're going to have an international squad in every position we've gone doubled up on everyone and there'll be quality and it might be like for like in in some ways for a player to come in but you you look at them and you just think I keep I keep thinking okay let's try and make an argument why they can't make win the league it's actually hard to make an argument why the arguments that were there in the past are beginning to chip away one was injuries and they're riding them out the other was like being able to deal with a setback or just having a bit of a soft underbelly and that feels like No number nine The other one was set pieces Oh what if they don't score from a set I think the last nine goals Haven't been from set pieces now So yeah Maybe I mean the latest What if is Declan Rice might be out For a game or two That would be big of us I mean he's just been Ridiculously good this year But then we said the same With Gabriel Didn't we What would they be like Without Gabriel Pretty good Unbeaten run now Stretches to 18 games Across all competitions That was their eighth Successive win at home It's looking Ominously good for Arsenal Still loads Loads more to come including another thriller between Newcastle and Spurs and Liverpool stuttering once again but break time means it's another Bill Edgar quiz question Which Tottenham player has won the most tackles in the Premier League for any club this season and two and a half times as many as any of his Spurs teammates?

24:4937-14 Find out after the break

25:06Welcome back to the game podcast from the times I'm Gregor Robertson alongside Johnny Northcroft and Tony Cascarino Before the break I ask the quiz question and the answer, Johnny, was? Palina Palina, yeah Always top of the tackles table Always top of the tackles Twice, two and a half times as many as any of his teammates Maybe says something Says something about his past, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah you can never get where the H is right when I spell his name Pauline yeah it's not the place you think it is anyway we'll come to Spurs in a minute first let's talk about the World Cup draw it's here the World Cup begins in 190 days and on Friday we're going to find out who England, Scotland maybe Ireland Tony maybe maybe and the rest are going to be playing when it all kicks off on June 11th Friday evening 5pm the Kennedy Centre Washington DC the village people will be performing if that doesn't get you tuning in I don't know what will and we'll be recording a special reaction pod straight after the show Tom via his sun lounge at Infantaventura no less so make sure you keep an eye out for that one Johnny what are we what are we hoping for what are we looking forward to we were talking about this beforehand and we were like as Scotland fans sorry listeners we'll start with Scotland you're like oh Argentina oh what would they do to us and then it's like oh Haiti what would they do to us that's a line from Michael Grant's piece which is excellent I urge anyone to read a preview in the Times but it's exciting but what are we hoping for John?

26:33Just please not England right? Okay that's a start Not England just because we've had too many of those it gets in everyone's heads it's never a great game not that we always lose it but it just obscures the rest of the campaign so that'd be good probably not the opening game given what happened to us in Germany I think that might also be quite a good thing I'd like Canada would be great wouldn't it for Scottish diaspora we've all got family in Canada haven't we that would be I do actually yeah so do I that would be fantastic and I mean yeah anyone else we could slip up against but you know there's I don't know Canada Australia Curacao Scotland finish fourth Jonathan give us I mean obviously there's different parts and I mean it's complicated Tony I find it hard I just can't just see the draw and not too worry about all the permutations.

27:27Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as ever, it's complicated. It's 48 teams, even more complicated because six of the spots are playoff spots, four of the UEFA. One of them is Bolivia, Suriname or Iraq. The other one's New Caledonia. That'd be a good one for Scotland. No, I didn't hear that. Jamaica or Congo. DR Congo. And you've got a couple of interesting ones, like Italy, obviously, potentially in pot four. But you've got Norway in pot three. who've just been unbelievable in their qualifying campaign with Haaland. Serloff as well, is he? Out front. Serloff, yeah. And I think one of the big things from an England point of view is they've seeded it for the first time.

28:09Indeed, yeah. So they can't draw France until the final, I think. They couldn't play France until the final. They can't get Argentina, Spain or France until the semis. At least the semis. And I think France until the final. And really, when you look at the other teams, there's nobody else England should be too frightened by. What do you think about that actually as a concept? It's the first time that's ever happened I don't particularly like it It's the kind of thing that happens in Wimbledon to keep the best players apart until the end It all feels a bit, you're getting into the territory of trying to, I'm not going to say the word rig it, but you're trying to manipulate the draw you're trying to manipulate the competition a little bit to get what you want I should say these teams have to win their group for this to matter to keep them apart.

28:52And that is a massive thing I've seen enough of these tournaments where the path you think someone's going to get doesn't exist. A bit more surprises, yeah. Yeah, and actually sometimes by winning the group, you get a much worse path. Famously in Russia, Belgium won the group, England were second, but it meant Belgium had to play Japan, who were very good, and Brazil. And Brazil after Brazil. And then France and England got Sweden and Croatia and so on. But there's some tricky teams. I mean I'm looking at the pot two teams that England could get you know Uruguay wouldn't fancy them Senegal gave them a lesson at the city ground Japan I think would be pretty decent Austria under Ralf Ranić and you know equally from a Scotland point of view apart from Canada anyone in pot one and anyone from pot two you'd be a little bit frightened of but it's great it becomes real when the draw is made as well you can look forward to all you know where it's happening when the games are one thing to add is we won't know where the games are until saturday right okay so there's two draws um actually fifa spinning it out there's a second draw on saturday which has got fifa legends involved and it's there where we find out you know where the teams are actually playing and that is a big thing because the logistics are going to be a factor at this world cup temperatures and so on the groups are there's a central region group which has got, it's a real amalgamation because it's got Mexico in it and then places like Dallas and Houston.

30:23You've got a Western region which I think from a touristic point of view would be quite nice. Vancouver, Seattle, LA, San Francisco I think is in there and then an Eastern one and I think that's going to be big for all the teams, particularly the European ones. And then of course there's complexities who gets to play at midday, who plays in the air-conditioned stadiums, who plays out in the sunshine. Who's going to have to watch the games at two in the morning. The pubs are staying open. You see front pages in the papers today. It's going to be different, isn't it? It's going to be different. And it's going to take ages.

31:0116 more teams than ever before. 12 groups. It's going to be all on. Because normally it's three weeks to maybe a month. Is it going to go on? It's slightly longer. It's like June the 11th to July the 19th. so yeah we're looking in five weeks and another thing that's going to happen at the draw is they're going to award the FIFA Peace Prize and I think we're all excited who's going to get that oh yeah that could be the tough one right I think that's a cue to move on we've already spoken about the village people too right back to the action there was a 1-0 win for Everton at Bournemouth thanks to a deflected Jack Grealish strike a 1-0 win for Crystal Palace at Burnley Daniel Muniz Heder lifting Oliver Glasner's side up to fifth despite it all and a 1-0 win for Forrest at Wolves Igor Jesus' first Premier League goal consigning Wolves to a 12th defeat in 14 games let's go to Newcastle next though because it was this was a big game for Spurs it was a big game for Newcastle obviously but Spurs given the kind of context and everything that they've been through in the last last week or so they showed they summoned some spirit to kind of to get a result didn't they in this perhaps with a bit of fortune and the unlikely likely sourcing Romero with a bicycle kick.

32:11Yeah, I mean, what a pair of goals they were. No, they did. They did. I mean, it was going down twice late and twice dredging up goals and, you know, feeling a little bit aggrieved that they were even in that position. They did show something, actually. And it's something to build on because, you know, it's that thing you look at. You look at where the players are playing for a manager. Well, yeah, they seem to be. you look for moments to get the fans back on board if you can't get excited again after your centre-half scores an overhead kick. And you're looking for a bit of luck because there was probably a little bit of fortune the way that one went in.

32:53What did we make of the penalty? Rodrigo Bentancur on Dan Byrne from a corner kick. And it was a strange kind of tussle. Yes, he was looking away from the ball. He was looking at Byrne. He was kind of getting his entire body around him. but not actually holding him or grappling him, doing everything in his power to bring him to the ground. He's a big guy. What do we think? Isn't it, for me, it's just a foul because you have no intentions of knowing where the ball is and you have no intentions of trying to win the ball. You're just going to try and stop the player, as in Dan Byrne, of getting on the end of it.

33:28The argument's been made after that, that if you did that for every challenge in the box, then there'd be 10, 15 penalties. Yeah, but Gregor, that argument's a valid one because every game, even whether it doesn't get given, there's 10 or 15 times in a corner scenario that someone's failing, quite clearly trying to stop a player, denying him to get into an area that he may get on the end of. Yeah, absolutely. I thought it was a penalty, but I absolutely take the point that you could give five other penalties in a game. but this the pulling the holding the grappling it's practiced it's worked out you know there was I thought Benton was actually quite cute or tried to be quite cute because there's a bit of a hold at the start of the action and then he takes his hands away and but they're almost under his armpits yeah exactly but the hands are strategically placed yeah so I thought he put it this way it was one of those you risk giving a penalty and I think if a penalty is then given against you you can't cry too much about it.

34:32And you can say, what about the other five things that have happened in this game? Fine. But as an isolated action, give what the rules are, you risk a penalty and that's what they did. So you know what you're doing. You're basically failing a player and hoping the referee doesn't give it because we're seeing it week in, week out. I mean, even going back to when I was playing and you had defenders who deliberately failed you and it was hard to get rid of them. But, you know, how do you, Without failing them back, you're never going to get on the end. I played against Kevin Moran. I played against him.

35:09I played with him in Ireland, and I played against him as a blackbird. He fouled you in every scenario. I never got given a foul against him. Like how? Because he seemed to get around your body and get engaged in a tussle without really doing anything, but making sure you don't win the ball. It'd stop you jumping. and years later I remember thinking no wonder he never because he played for Man United and whatever I remember thinking he never gives away fouls I know he got sent off in a final before anyone an FA Cup final but he generally was brilliant at it and I think players are now going do you know what I'll get away with it 90 % of the time yeah I mean given how big set pieces are in the game at the moment it is a it is interesting to think what what's going to happen if there's a crackdown and there's more fouls like this given because I think we're only going to see well it'll make a mockery Jonathan that's the problem isn't it they know that if we give too many fouls as penalties then the game will become a laughing stock they know that yeah so what do we do well you're stuck you're stuck in the middle aren't you because like I don't want to see an attacking player being fouled when they're trying to score a goal I mean it's kind of basic but I also probably don't want to see eight set piece goals a game Romero's Dave and Heather as well Tony you'd have been proud of that one Yeah, I mean, he's a funny player.

36:32He's got so much ability and yet there's something upstairs that he seems to lose it or he, you know... You saw at the end of the game as well, he's going to have seen the intent of winding up Bruno Guimaraes in the illness game. But he's capable, like you said, for a diving header and putting himself in arm's way and then with the second one with the overhead kick and okay, I'm not sure how that goes in. It's a weird goal because it feels like Ramsdale's got an eternity to get there but because there's bodies in front of him it's a bit more trickier so we go we've not had you guys on since the weekend and what did you make of the booing of Vacario and the whole sort of idea this toxicity that's brewing at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium like it seems to be easier for them to play away from home for a start but also like do you fear for Thomas Frank you know as you say they look like his players are playing for him and this was a They summoned some spirit, but it's looking like a tricky situation already for them.

37:30It is, and they look happy being away from their own stadium, which is a sad state of affairs, really. But that's what the Spurs grounds become like at the moment. I do fear for Thomas Frank, and he hasn't necessarily created these problems. You know, you've just got a disillusioned fan base who don't really know where the club's going, and they're taking it out now. And look, he hasn't started well enough either, but I don't think it's just because of what's happening in the Thomas Frank era. The thing you realise with Spurs, Spurs were poor last season as well. And in fact, take away the first 10 games of Ange and they were kind of poor after that.

38:08So this has been quite a long period where they've been a top six club, but not in performance. Yeah, I get the feeling he doesn't particularly like the group he's got. And I don't mean as in, I feel he probably feels in some ways he had a better squad at Brentford as in the characters and the desire they showed. I mean, he's left out Jed Spencer the last couple of games and Doggy's played there. And I'm not sure if he's a Thomas Frank player. I could add others in there. Because I think he's got to a stage, he clearly doesn't know he's best 11. That's clear. and we've talked about obviously rotation with the squad but it feels like he's making changes because people ain't doing what he wants them to do or they're not doing it as well as what's needed I'm not sure what his plan is to score a goal if that makes sense but he went with a straight formation at the weekend where he went with like a 4-2-2-2 and it was very narrow and kudos you'd always want him out wide because that's where he's the biggest threat and out wide on the right but it feels like he's really struggling to find a formation and personnel to do what's required well another manager who's struggling to find answers is Arnie Slott of course one all draw with Sunderland at Anfield Tony Chris have a slump

39:41there's no way else for him to turn is there I mean they were pretty poor in the first half and then Sunderland obviously took the lead and Vert slewed like he'd scored he'd broken his Premier League duck but it turned out to be a Mooka-Laylee own goal in the 81st minute and suddenly still could have won it at the end they're still so fragile looking defensively so much wrong it's look you look at the last what nine games seven points is it something like that in the Premier League because they won five out straight out the bat everything's wrong poor defensively Van Dijk's not getting close to players but Canati's making mistakes is a real concern a major and look to defend him there's not great service that struggled as well so there's lots of things within I think Liverpool are not going to get better I say better as in they could improve a bit but Liverpool are so short of being even close to a challenger even if they went on a run I just don't see that squad of players now being able to deliver and I think even Champions League football is looking to me really doubtful all I'm doing is witnessing the team that can see goals easily and easy to play against I wouldn't disagree with that description of the team but isn't this just a transition I mean our team's not allowed a transition haven't we seen this before they are trying to move to a completely new not completely pretty new team first team that's what the summer signings were about they're trying to figure out a future for Liverpool where Salah's not the main guy there's an attack based around Verts and Isak with maybe Ekotiki involved they're trying to replace the full backs and they've got an ageing talisman at the back and I just think this is where we are their run is actually still better than Man City's was this time a year ago when City were at the start of their transition I look back 20 years ago I remember reporting on Manchester United when they finished bottom of a Champions League group with, this was 2005-06 season, with Villarreal, Benfica and Nice, not Nice, but a French team.

41:59And Monaco or something? Yeah, it was a poor Champions League group. They finished bottom. This time of the year, they were about 10th in the league because they were transitioning. Ferguson had brought in Ronaldo, Rooney, trying to build a younger team around that. I remember writing, where is this going? this Ronaldo is not going to amount to anything what's happening they've won three titles in a row the next three seasons so I'm not saying Liverpool are going to go and do that I just think yes it's not been great yes last night they struggled Sunderland are a pretty good team Liverpool didn't lose the game Sunderland have won at Stamford Bridge they've drawn at Arsenal unfortunately for Liverpool they're in this point in time where everyone wants things now and there doesn't be any patience with a downturn in performance.

42:48So we had West Ham, oh, we're back. And now, oh no, they're not back. Now we're angry again. And it's difficult for Arnie Slott because he's got to try and plot a course through this. But I guess what I'm saying is these ups and downs in performance, Tony, you're right. They're not going to win anything this year. I would very much doubt. I'd fear for them in Europe if they continue like this, but they're transitioning. You wrote about all those things in a big feature in the Sunday Times. The kind of upshot of that as well was that Arne Slott is totally safe. That's how the hierarchy at Liverpool see it.

43:24And I think the only thing that would change that is if you get the sense, if they got the sense, that this guy can't manage the transition. This guy can't... Steven Gerrard had a great phrase last week after he got beat by PSV. What Slott needed to do at that point was stop the bleeding because no one can get beaten every week. Certainly not a big team. but I think he has stopped the bleeding he's won at West Ham they were a lot more conservative against Sunderland I mean they played principally not to lose and they got away with it and they could have lost yeah but they got away with it kept the midfielders deeper played Gomez and Robertson at the back instead of you know Kirchner's the more attacking option and the worry at the moment if I'm looking at the transition versus coming good I think the worry is Isak I'm still struggling to see where he's going to get his service from because it's just not how they're wired how they're playing.

44:20I'd say to Jonathan and I hope you're right by the way I hope you're really right on that, that Liverpool are going for a transition. My biggest concern is the lack of legs in the team getting down the pitch because they're getting outrun and that starts with a, I mean because I said to I said on the podcast before that So when you lose Luis Diaz, you lose energy and tenacious players. And they lost. Obviously, Nunes was a tenacious player for them. And Ed Yotsu was a tenacious player. They've lost all of that in the forward line. Isaac's not going to do that. Would you really have kept Nunes and Diaz?

44:55No, it was a case of... To me, if you let a tenacious player go, because he was quite clear, his biggest asset was that he chased everything and anywhere. Okay, well, that upsets defenders. And they don't get an easy ride with him. but I didn't think he was the Arsenal because he was clinical enough but he was useful as a substitute now if you lose that type of player you obviously got to go and buy a player who can do the same work rate as what he did but is a better or more rounded player Liverpool have lost legs in their team and that's my biggest concern and I don't think they're going to recover from this moment because McAllister's really struggling in midfield they're still going to recover from this moment Johnny I'm not sure he is right I mean that was the other worry the two worries biggest worries of all I think are Isak and Salah for different reasons Tony's right about the energy but that's not that's not Arnie Slott's fault that's a decline that would have happened anyway but Ekotiki makes more sense at the top of the pitch at the moment for exactly the reasons you talk about than Isak so that's kind of an issue and midfielders are worried because because McAllister, whether it's injuries or whatever, isn't covering the ground.

46:12And Gravenberch is, I think, a great number six in a positive sense in possession, a playbuilder, but he's not a caicedo, he's not a transition stopper. He's not a guy that gets round. So maybe there's an issue that was going to come anyway. And then you've got Van Dijk. But as I say, I'm not saying you are, Tony, but people are sort of reacting as if Arnie Slott has personally caused these problems and I think this was something that was clear to the hierarchy of Liverpool a year ago that there was going to need to be this big change maybe it hasn't been communicated to the fans properly maybe the fans have understandably got excited because of all the signings but there are also some signs that it's not been navigated as well as it could have been strategically, no maybe not and like if you look at the whole they have in central defence in particular yeah absolutely and maybe look Bradley will bring back the tenacious player as a fullback but he's obviously been injured just to stay fit yeah and he keeps getting injured look I'm trying not to be biased because I'm a fan but what I see is really worrying that's what I see and I keep coming back to if that was another club I'll be saying that club's in trouble at the moment and I really hope Jonathan's right and it is a transition period I just don't see that What would you do then?

47:35I mean do you think changing the manager would make a difference? No I think well obviously the gay thing was a massive problem they got wrong in the summer because they needed another centre half because I'm not sure Van Dijk is the captain they need right now because he's playing poorly as well but Liverpool can't change that position Canate and Van Dijk are the ones that are going to have to stay into the team because there is no backup is there? that's what they look really like and they are shipping goals at an alarming rate and we ain't even talked about the chances that are being missed by the opposition Sunderland last night have got literally one cleared off the line to win the game let's give Sunderland some credit we always do this Liverpool are a big issue right now but Sunderland, my god for a team to come up no one give them any hope to look this well coached, this well drill, this compact and offer the threat on the counter and be great at set pieces and like make some really smart signings of the 16 like it's an incredible job it's an amazing job recruitment job coaching job I think Slott talked about it last night that they they press you really high and aggressively up the pitch but then they fall back and they're unbelievably compact Brentford did this actually for a couple of years under Thomas Frank and then individually I mean the fullbacks you know Ronaldo and Talby are just both young 20 superb signings the midfield's as good as I think how many central midfielders are better than Xhaka and Siddiqui at the moment I mean that's they've got the legs I know Xhaka's aging a bit but they've got that industry and that bait you must have that if you don't have that in the Premier League the legs and the dynamism to get around the pitch you cause havoc I saw Chelsea get beaten by Sunderland at home and I was watching the game and I couldn't believe how much ground and Sunderland players covered, watching it live.

49:30Because you're not seeing it from a television position. You're seeing it from literally in front of you and you're watching players move and get into positions as quick as they can. You can see everything in front of you. They're a good side. And I knew that they would struggle last night, Liverpool against them. And what's brilliant quickly is seeing players who are already there being able to live with the transition. And Trey Hulme and Ballard are fantastic. And they've been able to come up with Sunderland and live with this this evolution which is great to see yeah well Manchester City next for Sunderland another big one another another tough test for Manchester City as well no doubt so we will be back on Monday to review that and all the rest of the weekend's action and don't forget we've got a special episode on Friday to review the World Cup draw hope to see you then