Are Liverpool in Transition or in Trouble?

0:04Welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. Liverpool suffered consecutive defeats under Arnautel for only the second time as they were beaten 1-0 by Galatasaray in Istanbul. Teething troubles after a summer of upheaval or a team in transition 12 months later than expected? We'll also be reflecting on Champions League wins for Newcastle, Chelsea and Arsenal, draws for Tottenham Hotspur in Manchester City and Nuno Espirito Santos' start to life at West Ham United. Plus, after Rory McIlroy's X-rated response to abuse from American fans during the Ryder Cup, we'll be asking why we expect footballers to turn the other way every single week.

0:43I'm Gregor Robertson and joining me in the studio today we have the Chief Correspondent for The Times and Sunday Times Martin Samuel, The Times Senior Sports Writer Alison Rudd and joining us down the line we are also joined by The Times London Football Reporter Pete Rutzler. Good to have you on the show guys. Pete, you've just returned from Istanbul. Boul after a poor display for Liverpool against Crystal Palace at the weekend losing to an injury time strike by Eddie Nketiah another game where Liverpool's issues were kind of writ large over the performance yeah definitely I think we've talked about this a lot in terms of Liverpool's start to the season the fact that they were flawless in terms of results in the Premier League but there was always this sense that not everything was right you know a lot of last minute winners obviously that came unstuck against Palace.

1:34And I think in Istanbul, we got kind of a full selection of a lot of the issues that Arnaz Slott's going to have to grapple with. In a way, this is probably the first time Slott's got some serious on-field matters to sort of deal with. You know, last season was all about the off-field stuff, wasn't it? That was sort of dominating his press conferences. Everything on the field was so serene, just a very smooth transition and just professional business-like way of securing a Premier League title amid the backdrop of Trent Alexander-Arnold, Mohamed Salah and Virgil van Dijk's contracts. This year, we had the big summer spend.

2:16And I think what we saw in Istanbul again was how he's going to try and bed in all of these top talents, particularly looking not just in terms of Florian Verts and obviously Isak is working up his fitness. But at fullback, again, we saw Dominic Sobbersla at right back. We had Jeremy Fringpong playing on the right wing. And it all just isn't clicking. You know, we're playing in Istanbul. You're playing Galatasaray. You get everything that comes with that. You had the fireworks the night before outside the team hotel, which apparently didn't affect the squad. But the whistles inside the ground must have, because, you know, even us on the press benches, I said to you guys before, but I had to put headphones in when Liverpool had possession because the whistles were that loud.

3:01I called it brain boiling, I think, in my report. But, you know, I've experienced a lot of fantastic atmospheres and this was another, but it was just the whistles were so, so, so, so potent in your head. So I imagine that played a factor as well. But in terms of what we saw on the field, you had a team making a lot of mistakes, a lot of mistakes that they didn't make last season, turning over chances. Yes, there were still elements, positive moments, particularly in the first half. Yeah, I think a lot of the issues that we've talked about that have sort of been glossed over by results were very much apparent on Tuesday night.

3:33It felt watching it that there weren't enough relationships being developed on the pitch, which Liverpool definitely had last season. And, you know, it's like they're like a group of, not like a group of strangers, that's going too far. And, you know, they are still top of the Premier League and they probably will qualify easily for the next stage of the Champions League. It's just that there's been so much upheaval that it's hard to see. I can't see what, on a lot of occasions, I can't see what the relationships and patterns that Slott is hoping to gain from the way he sets the team up. Did you feel, for example, was the vibe there that Salah was being rested or was he trying to leave him out in order to allow patterns to emerge without him there?

4:25or is it a question of Salah doesn't fit into the current front line-up pattern? Is it about relationships or is it about form? It seems to me it's about relationships should come first. Yeah, I think Arna Slott said that he was resting Salah, which was an interesting thing so early in the season. I mean, last year he spoke about, and I think particularly in the summer, he talked a lot about his regrets around not rotating more, particularly around the Champions League game with PSG and obviously the Carabao Cup defeat against Newcastle in the final. The issue then is when you rotate in the way he has and getting it right.

5:00I mean, there's one thing to rotate and then there's rotating to still ensure you're getting results. And I think that right-hand side is particularly curious. Obviously, moving Dominic Sobbersle to right-back, he can do a good job there. You're trying to sort of fill in for Trent Alexander-Arnold and everything that he offered. And sure, Sobbersle, I'm sure, can play a 50-yard diagonal, but he's not Trent. And then you've got Jeremy Frimpong, who's been brought in as the right back extensively, but playing as the right winger. I'm not sure if it's in terms of relationships. Those elements of disruption are key.

5:31And I think that's those connections and building them. Last season, I think Liverpool only started four central midfielders all season in the Premier League. And that consistency was absolutely key to everything. This year, you're throwing in Florian Vert, a very different kind of player. I actually think he was OK in Istanbul. I think he played quite well. He was creative, providing a spark. But it just feels like he's really trying to make a mark, trying to almost find a spot in this team, which was pretty settled last year. And just by adding him in, it naturally unsettles things. Salah's interesting anyway, because, you know, his form has been, he's got to have gone quiet.

6:12But again, that's part of it, isn't it? You're dropping in Isak, you're dropping in Vert, Eketike, different players having to learn to play with each other. and that will naturally bring some kind of transition, won't it? Martin, what do you make of this? I mean, obviously Liverpool's start to the season, won their first five games in the Premier League. There were issues that people were thinking, is this a sign of a very good team just finding a way to win? Or perhaps now we're seeing that it was a little bit more than that. What do you think? If you're talking about relationships with the team and everything like that, the one thing that is not being mentioned is that all of the new players have gone into a dressing room that's in mourning.

6:52Diogo Jota's death was going to have an effect on Liverpool at some stage this season. And because they started well and they got late goals and they did this incredible thing, went on this incredible run where everything, oh, look at the spirit in this team, look at the spirit. But at the same time, grief has always got to be dealt with. you look at those new players, you look at the players that are coming into that dressing room. Usually when you come into the dressing room, you know what it was like, Gregor. You fill your way in. You work out who wants to make a joke. You work out how far you can go with the bonding stuff, with joking who can take a joke, who can't take a joke, who needs to be left alone.

7:38All of that stuff is really, really hard to judge if you're Verts or any of those guys. It's really, really hard to judge at the moment because you don't know what these guys were like last season. You don't know how far you can go. And I'm not saying it is something that is talked about every single day or it's not something that comes up in every conversation because it won't. But that's part of it, isn't it? It's part of it's rather than sort of malprocessing of grief and all of that sort of stuff, which everyone is more aware of now. I just think that's a factor. I just think there is something to be said if you're looking at the way that the dynamic between players, they haven't had a normal preseason.

8:28They haven't had a new introduction, the standard new introduction to a football club, those guys. so I think it's quite interesting it's the new players that seem to be struggling a little bit now yeah it's interesting for inverts in particular it's interesting because we said at the start of the season didn't we that this is something that no one knows how Liverpool are going to deal with or when they're going to deal with it it might be something that we reach for now but it may be something that becomes more apparent it might be something that affects them well it will affect them for the whole season so that's a kind of unknown there was a feeling that the grief might catch up with them later in the season.

9:08But I think what we've seen is we've seen it per match almost that they start really well with that sense of togetherness that you get from a tragedy happening. And then you dip because you've given too much at the start. And then you remember that you're doing something in the name of a fallen teammate. So you put the energy back in at the end. So we've had these strange games where Liverpool have been on a mini rollercoaster within the 90 minutes and scoring late goals. And that in itself is exhausting. And once you've broken the spell of that, I think it's not ridiculous to say we're seeing results that show that there just may be a bit...

9:51You can be physically tired from being mentally strained. Absolutely, you can. So maybe that's why there's been a disappointment to the most recent performances. Without turning this into something that... My mum died in the middle of the London Olympics in 2012 when I was a chief sports writer, and you took one day off. And, you know, because there was no way, you just couldn't let them down. You know, you've been building up to this the whole time, and I'm waiting for Bradley Wiggins in the mix zone. You get the phone call you never want to get, which is come home quick. and you still had to file because you'd just won our first gold medal.

10:31So you still had to file and then you had to drive around the M25 and then I think I took one day off and then I was back on the Monday. And ultimately, you know, nothing happened during the Olympics apart from there was a spectacular hour between me and somebody at the equestrian event, which was about two days before my mum died when I was on about that much of a cold. And, you know, but it comes out eventually and you just look at these players and, you know, you have to get on with it. You can't, you know, you can't postpone your football season so you just have to get on with it. You have to deal with it.

11:10You have to win football matches and do that. But eventually there was going to be a toll. Now I'm not saying that last all season. They're a very, very good team and they've managed to be a very, very good team as well. but I do think there are issues at Liverpool that are maybe not just that can't just be solved with counters on the board basically So when you consider all of that Paul Joyce has written a piece in the aftermath of this game saying Arne Slott almost feels like Arne Slott is facing the test of his credentials and the transition that was expected 12 months ago a year late It's an odd situation that isn't it come in and replace Jurgen Klopp one of the greatest managers in the club's history and as Pete said it was a serene title charge last season and given all the upheaval the changes in personnel and that massive tragedy this is where he's really going to face his biggest test What we knew about Arnie Slott is he's very good at the impossible job routine which is who takes over from Klopp he handled that very well If it bothered him, he never showed it.

12:20And he had the humility to identify what was great about Liverpool under Klopp and maintain that. So it was a relatively serene transition. So that's what we know about him now. What we didn't know, and now we're going to find out, is how is he, when money has been spent, the pressure that comes with having... It's not something that Liverpool have done traditionally, spent quite so much and been in the headlines for the transfers they've made. and how is he at dealing with a dressing room that's grieving? How is he at creating a new formation, a new relationships on the pitch? Like, I can sort of see why he's...

13:03I can see why they bought Vietz because there is something... You can see there's something twinkly and beautiful about him, but it's as though he's playing on the moon and we're all playing on the earth. It's like he's not quite with us yet. So how does a manager, how long does he persevere with that? Obviously in training, he does beautiful stuff. He's done beautiful stuff before in the Bundesliga. It's not quite coming off. Does he try and always surround him with the same personnel so that he builds those patterns and relationships? Does he give him a rest? Is that counterproductive? These are questions he hadn't any need to ask of himself or the team lussies and then now he is and we will find out.

13:45I think as well, he seems quite sensitive. He does seem quite sensitive to the money that was spent. Now I happen to agree with him about the net spend. I happen to agree that Liverpool haven't spent£450 million. If you bring£250 million in, you've spent£200 million. I think there's some really bad mathematics that get used about football spending because no one accounts No one talks net, everyone talks gross. But at the same time, he's quite sensitive about it. You know, people like me make that sort of point. But I didn't expect, you know, Arnie Slott, I didn't expect to care about it as much, but he then piled in about it the other day.

14:30Pete, go on. Sorry, Greg, I was just going to say, particularly with the spend, because it's been so front-loaded and it has been on the forward line, it's almost like you caught, Of course, he's Salah signing a new deal, but there's kind of this sort of preparation for a post-Salah era about what that team would look like versus that creative hub, isn't he, that's supposed to sort of reshift the team off Trent and the creativity that he bought. but even just looking in these opening games and looking at the performances of Ibrahim Kanate defensively those sort of vulnerabilities I wonder if there's a sensitivity there that because they didn't get Mark Gehi done that he's almost wondering whether it's going to come back around and go well you spent this much money but the defence is looking like this and his argument and he said it again in Istanbul about you know the whole team has changed therefore the way we defend changes because you're defending from the front it's your structure it's everything else that comes with that the balance of the team.

15:25But I wondered if that might be a factor as well because I think we have, just because of the nature of these mistakes and then that focuses on the defence because I think with the defence, I think they've kept only two clean sheets, haven't they, this season? So that's been a marked shift as well. OK, well, they're still top of the league. This is the nature of modern football and a club the size of Liverpool. And they played their game against supposedly their big rivals and their three points are the good in that. Travelled to Chelsea at the weekend and then the host Manchester United the other side with international break.

16:00So yeah, more tests ahead. Alison, on to Arsenal next. You were at the Emirates on Wednesday night to see Arsenal's 2-0 win against Olympiacos. Fairly kind of comfortable victory? It wasn't quite as straightforward as the scoreline would suggest. I was really surprised by the feistiness of Olympiacos. I thought the way they set up, they were just going to try and be annoying and press and Harry and not be creative. But they mixed it up. They mixed the temper up. They mixed up what they wanted to do. They had periods of possession. They brought a wonder save from David Reyes so they could easily have scored.

16:44They had a goal disallowed for offside. It shows they were making inroads. so it was actually I have to admit I was thinking this is going to be pedestrian this is going to be straightforward win for Arsenal I'm not going to have a lot of laughs is what I thought I actually was very enthralled by it because it felt tense and then inevitably with these things the team with hugely greater resources can win and you know everyone was fit for Arsenal and you had a fit Odegaard starting again and he was back to almost his best. And when he's playing well, they're just innately a joy to watch Arsenal when Odegaard's picking out these passes.

17:27It's like he's operating on a different plane. He is fantastic. And so it was absorbing. And Arteta was asked about the depth of his squad and he said last season, when they reached the semi-final, by the way, of the Champions League, he would turn and look at his bench and he would see five players on that bench who'd not played first team football before. And now last night he turned around and he thought, ah, I'll bring on Eze and Saka, why not? You know, it's completely built for some sort of glory, whether in the league or the Champions League or somewhere. It would be a scandal if that amount of talent couldn't produce the goods.

18:09It really, it's set up for that, albeit, albeit, there were tense moments in the match and this will keep on happening at that stadium when it was only 1-0, the crowd instead of relaxing into the fact that they were creating chances and Odegaard was playing well and there was some beauty to watch, they were getting antsy, they were, they didn't like it, they needed that second goal What about Giocares? He's the one kind of flickering doubt still at the moment I think the problem with him is it's a really weird thing to say but he looks like a player who doesn't fit the bill in his demeanour. So he missed a couple of chances.

18:52And after about the third miss, he sort of started slapping his thigh in annoyance, self-annoyance at himself. He should do panter. But it's like he gives off the vibe of someone who's trying too hard to impress. And he has a bit of a huff and puff about him. And his build is a bit bulky. Now, I know we've got the biggest striker in Erling Haaland and he gets away with that, but there is something ice-skaty. He's a bit ungainly, isn't he? But there is also something ice-skaty about him when he's through, when he knows he's going to score, and then suddenly he looks like he weighs as much as a feather, whereas Goikrezi is more, oh, I need to really prove that I'm worth being here.

19:33He gives off the vibe of not quite believing it himself yet and needing to show it. Because most managers will argue this, won't they? They'll say, well, I'm really glad my striker's getting in the position and he's reading those through balls and he's making himself available. But he's got a vibe of, I'm trying too hard. I thought last season, was it Man City they played and he scored two goals or hat-trick or something like that, for Sporting Lisbon. Yes. Two penalties, though. Two penalties, exactly. And if you look before he scores, there's a one-on-one that has got to go. It's absolutely got to go.

20:16And it didn't go. And I've always, you know, I looked at it that night and then everyone came away raving because obviously in football, the result is, that justifies everything, whatever happens with the result. And so they well beat Manchester City and he scored twice and everyone was like, this is the guy. and I'm thinking, yeah, apart from that one where he was one-on-one and really should have scored and you really want your centre-forward to score that and he didn't score it. And look, it's one match, you know, and there was a lot of other matches in which he did score. But I never thought they were signing Haaland, if you know what I mean.

20:56I never thought they were signing this guy that was goals. Well, the Arsenal season more broadly, I mean, they were only just entering October, but it's been funny already in that any sort of blip it seems the pressure on Arteta now to deliver is insane it's like some people think it's been unfair so far and actually now after Liverpool slipped last week there are two points behind them on the table could go top at the weekend you wrote your Sunday Times column at the weekend about why there's a sort of funny the public at large have a funny relationship with Mikel Arteta and maybe actually don't really want to see them succeed.

21:36Yeah, well, it just popped into my head how different we were when Catherine Granger had won four consecutive silver medals at the Olympics. A lot of reference to other sports today. I like that. That's good. And how, as a nation, we were... I mean, there wasn't anyone that wasn't willing her to get gold. You know, and she knew she was on that point of admiration turning to pity, which, of course, she would not have wanted. She desperately needed it to. We don't have that same yearning on behalf of Mikel Arteta, who has his equivalent of three silver medals. Now, OK, the Olympics come around every four years.

22:16So it's not, I know it's not the same, but it is, there's something about the pantomime nature of football that means where we probably should say, wow, you've come second three seasons in a run. That speaks to consistency and great management and determination and lots of positive qualities. Instead, we tend to see it as, oh, you bottle it, or when it comes to those big defining moments, you make the wrong decision, the games you should have won that you drew. And then it becomes a sort of the standard joke that just when Man City can't summon the points to mount any form of a challenge. I likened it to Mikel Arteta being in a car chase but chasing the wrong car because it was Liverpool that came up on the blind side and overtook him.

23:11And it's that, that is funny. I just, it just, it's just interesting the way that football, in other sports, that need to get over the line after years of almost making it, we see as brave and honourable and we will them to do it. in football, we flip it on its head and say, you just haven't got what it takes. Is that just football, Martin, or is this an Arsenal and Arteta problem? There's no such thing as the next cab off the ranking sport. That's the problem. And that's what you can see looming with Arsenal. You can see that Pochettino-Tottenham situation looming where they're the next cab off the rank.

23:50The minute there's this gap, Tottenham are going to come in and do it and they don't do it. And it happens in other sports as well. Alina Westwood never won a major, or hasn't won a major. I don't think he ever will win a major. Colin Montgomery certainly won't win a major now. But there was always that feeling it was going to happen. It was going to, you know, they're going to win one year. They're too good not to win a major. There's no such thing in sport. That is the problem, that you take your chance. And if you don't take your chance, it doesn't necessarily follow that, oh, you'll win it next year.

24:25You know, we've all seen it. You can all cite examples from various sports where maybe it'll be your turn. There's no such thing as your turn in sport because someone's coming. Someone is coming. It might happen this season. Arsenal should... I voted the other week. You look at their squad, it's the strongest squad in the league. I think it's the strongest squad than Liverpool's. They should win it this season. I even saw Opta are making them favourites for the Champions League Pete what do you think do you think do you agree with the guys do you think this is kind of now or never territory for Arteta and Arsenal I was just thinking in terms of Arteta I mean there's an element of bringing it on himself as well I mean it has sort of been building up to this crescendo because you're you've spoken in you know phases you know phase one phase two phase three phase four this is it this is it now and that adds to the whole sense of getting closer and being closer And I suppose that was a way of sort of rationalise it, of calming expectations in those early years.

25:31But you sort of you pay the debt later and that's now. And that's why there is that added intensity around the squad. But they do have the squad now. I think the depth that they have, the options that they have, this is the test of the coach for that final stretch. Right. You know, there are coaches that can build a team, that can progress a team. And Arteta has done that very, very well. You could even make the case that maybe you've put Southgate in a similar sort of bracket by getting the team southbound. I was going to say Southgate, Pete, yeah. I was going to say Southgate, exactly. And just getting it over the line is the difference.

26:04And that's the very best. That's the elite that can do that. But that doesn't take away from the job. Do we think, going back to what Martin was saying, do we think that finishing second three times is any, does that give you any advantage or is it a disadvantage? it almost feels like a disadvantage we're turning something that should be an advantage into a disadvantage it's that context of the world isn't it just in terms of what they've built and what they've spent we're not important as well that's the other thing, we're not important really, I know what we're turning it into but if you're Miguel Arteta who cares what we're turning it into you know, they you've got to put all of that again, that was the piece you've got to put everything aside all of the, you know, like all the ball was the one about the ball was that the Carabao Cup ball he didn't like or something and all of this stuff has got to go to one side what we're saying on the expectations just put it to one side you have got the best squad in the league if one player comes out of the Arsenal team the player that goes in could easily be a first team player at Arsenal Liverpool aren't quite the same but aren't you supposed to learn from coming close and not quite making it because we've already seen signs of Arsenal being hesitant when they could have been more aggressive.

27:25Absolutely. And that was one of the lessons they were supposed to have learned. Maybe it's completely irrelevant that he's finished second because he is innately who he is as a coach. It's taken them close though. It's taken Arsenal very, very close. It comes from that first one, doesn't it? It comes from the first one where they were in the box seat all year. and then lost some games that they shouldn't have lost and then City just gradually wheeled them in. And that's where you get the, oh, they choked. Now, I'm not sure they choked that season. City were a better team than that season and City messed up early on and allowed Arsenal to get into a strong position.

28:08But if you looked at that season and you look at the results between the two teams, City win both, don't they? I'm trying to remember this. that you would beat them home and away that year when they eventually wheeled them in and they win quite well I think. So that's not the choke that everyone thinks it is really, the best team in the league. But it does become this narrative but it shouldn't affect Arsenal. It becomes our narrative but it shouldn't affect if you're Mikel Arteta. Who cares what we think? Who cares what we think? You do. That's the title today and he'll, who cares what we think?

28:43but yeah who cares what we think there you go you can clip that that'll be good they could play that maybe on stage at the podcast awards when we're applauding when we're applauding somebody else up to this stage okay still loads more to come after the break we'll be talking about Newcastle Spurs Manchester City and the return of this special one to Stamford Bridge but who cares what we think indeed join us after the break anyway please

29:21Welcome back to the Game Podcast from the Times. I'm Gregor Robertson with Martin Samuel, Alison Rudd and Pete Rutzler. On to the rest of the Champions League action. Let's start with Newcastle. Newcastle's 4-0 win over Union San Giloé. Nick Voltamada continuing his encouraging start to life with the Magpies, despite what Bayern Munich might say, Martin. it was a clever goal it was a goal that you saw on first take and thought was that a deflection but it was a great little flick to kickstart the club's most comprehensive Champions League win coming back to that, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge at Bayern Munich branded Newcastle idiots for spending that amount of money, I think£69 million on Vultimada That's Munich's modus of Wanda isn't it that everyone's spending stupid money um and uh stupid english money and you look at it and you think of all the english money that goes into german football and german clubs never win the champions league and uh german clubs don't really win much in europe at all so so the stupid ones really because english clubs are quite successful and bar and munich get right on my because they have, their money has killed the Bundesliga.

30:44Absolutely. The reason that they haven't got the money, if you read the new Leverkusen coach was speaking at one of these never-ending football symposiums the other day. Yeah, summits. And he was saying that there's got to be more financial restrictions. There's got to be more of this because we went in for a player and a very small Premier League team came in and beat us to that player and, you know, this isn't right because we're a Champions League club. You think, well, whose fault is that? Whose fault is that? One, who sold all their players so that they're not a particularly attractive proposition.

31:22But two, the reason that there isn't the money in German football is because everyone knows who's going to win the league. And Bayer Leverkusen, winning it a couple of years ago, came like a bolt out of the blue. because Bayern Munich have won, is it 12 now out of 13? Yeah, I think so. Or it's 11 out of 12. Well, what sort of a league is that? I mean, I can't remember Scudamore years ago saying that the problem that Bundesliga have got is that nobody outside Germany wants to watch Mainz versus Cologne. It's as simple as that. You know, whereas everyone outside of this country wants to watch what we regard as the most pedestrian Premier League fixtures you could possibly imagine.

32:00So, that isn't our fault. and Bayern Munich never stop moaning whenever they don't get a player, then it's our stupid English money and stupid this and stupid that. I'm sorry, I'm not having Bayern Munich. I mean, Bayern did sort of go in for Vltamare. There was like a whole thing. Well, clearly that's the subtext to this. Yes, exactly. I probably should have mentioned that at the outset, but yeah, they wanted to play her. They were being turned by Newcastle. Yeah. Not happy about that. You know, and it's a pious lecturing of all the clubs about finances. it's not the chairman of an English club is it that went inside like Willie Harness did wasn't Rumanigga wasn't there the two watches from the trip to Qatar people are grimacing you can go away and check it if we're wrong we can edit that out but I think if you look at it there was a failure to declare a couple of watches after a trip to Qatar.

33:02Neil, let's check that with lawyers. Let's move on. But what I mean is they're not in any position to elect to anybody. But when the deal went through, there were people in this country, pundits, commentators, saying it does seem quite a steep fee and it's all linked into the EZAC deal and this is the way that transfers escalate and players become too expensive. The point is it's none of their business and they shouldn't be saying it. And it was a steep fee because they were desperate by that stage. They'd missed out on a lot of players. The transfer window is closing so we can look at artificial deadlines that are inserted into the season like transfer deadlines.

33:44And, you know, so that inflated the fee. You know, that's not Newcastle's doing. They don't spend that money unless somebody comes in for a sec. Yeah, it's an interesting one because the Premier League's I spoke to a few people recently and saying that everyone else knows about because everyone else knows about the Premier League's riches the fleas have been inflated enormously the same could be said about Wissa who signed his fee rose from 25 to 55 million he turns 30 next year it's a strange situation the kind of imbalance the power imbalance between the Premier League and the rest I think we need someone in Spain or France to tell us that was inflated yeah maybe not the Bayern Munich chief anyway there were draws for Spurs and Manchester City Spurs salvaged a 2-2 draw against the Norwegian Minos Bodo Glimp thanks to an 89th minute own goal and Eric Dier's 19th minute penalty denied Manchester City all three points in Monaco but the return of the special one the Stamford Bridge was where most eyes were drawn to on Tuesday night and probably for the first time although it was his 8th visit 8th return as manager of a 4th club I think it was this is probably the first time he was welcomed with open arms, Martin that clearly says a lot about the club he's arriving with probably it does doesn't it, so they've got all the Manchester United and Tottenham stuff out of their system he was great for Chelsea he actually wasn't better for Manchester United but he was great for Chelsea I was pleased, he got the reception he deserved, good luck to him terrible game of football does his return almost like I was at the game and you know as I say Benfica standing in Optus Power Rankings Bournemouth are ranked above Benfica it's the same sort of issue we're talking about so he's not a threat anymore that's why Chelsea fans were willing to sort of welcome him with open arms but does his return sort of offer a bit of a reminder of what it is that Chelsea have lost that sort of despite the vast investment you know all the ambition in the world they're not set up to win anymore there is certainly a conversation to be had about what Chelsea want out of life because they won two trophies last season and you wouldn't know it you wouldn't know it you really wouldn't I mean Crystal Palace won the FA Cup and you would know it had to sell their best player but you'd know this was a team that's on a roll that this is a team that's having it, basically.

36:25Here we go. Chelsea, you wouldn't know. Apart from that great big dinner plate on their chest, you wouldn't know that this was a team that won, albeit the smallest of the European trophies, but the Club World Cup. I was at the final. Peter was at the final. That was big. That was a huge performance for Chelsea. and then the season starts and there's been this churn again and you think, when does that stop? When does that stop? And you go, right, we should be challenging Liverpool for the title. It should be us, not Arsenal, that are in Liverpool's faces in this season going, right, we're the coming force.

37:11Pete, when does that day arrive? Does it? There is this sort of contradiction, isn't there? Martin mentioned the... thing on the chest and Chelsea got the branding all around Stamford Bridge about being world champions and things like that you can't say that you can't make those that sort of emphatic pronouncement without then backing it up on the pitch right without seeing that same impetus and direction and they should really and we're all saying it particularly after the final in New Jersey and the way that they played and you looked at their midfield yes one of if not the best in the league.

37:44It can be when everyone's fit. That's a key caveat. You would assume that they would then go on and add the right touches and considering the spending that they would do that. But it's felt more, and this is what they need to prove, that they haven't just swapped players, that they've actually improved their squad. And the nature of a couple of the deals, moving on Jackson to Bayern Munich, a player who looks like he's progressing. And yes, you have those red cards at Newcastle at the end of the season and during the Club World Cup as well. But you always felt that there's another level to him to go, such to the point that Bayern come in and take him and sit and want him as their sort of Kane successor, longer term type thing and give him that sell.

38:24Noni Maduweke goes to Arsenal, looks like he's certainly improving them in terms of adding depth and whatever. So you're expecting that those that come in can improve that, but we haven't seen that yet. And yes, there's this transition. And the other thing, of course, is injuries, which has been really frustrating at least from my perspective because when you're trying to analyze where they are and how they are playing it becomes incredibly difficult because you try and you try and speak to some sports scientists you try and speak to coaches you try and say what what's this going to do what's this summer going to do what does three weeks off and then you do a pre-season where you're treating it like a normal week during the season how does that impact what a player is going to be like their robustness their ability to cope with games as we go into the midweek, weekend cycle.

39:10And they just don't know. No one gives you a concrete assessment. The best we had was they'll probably start fast and then fade later. It's been the opposite. And the injuries have already started to pile up in terms of muscle injuries, which Chelsea were slightly susceptible last year. I mean, Fofana's got a concussion at the moment, so it's different. But Lavi has been injured. Badishele has been injured. He's been injured a couple of times. And I mean, you're looking at this weekend in terms of availability. after Chalabas' red card, you've got Hato and Achampong, both 19-year-olds, both pretty raw, playing at centre-half.

39:44And you think, well... Along with Badia Shille. Well, exactly, yeah, and Badia Shille. So there's all these sort of things that make it quite difficult to go, yes, this is categorically, you know, Mareska's doing this and that. But there's just, there's been a lot of inconsistency this season. I mean, the discipline's the big thing at the moment because obviously it's three red cards in four, isn't it? Well, I think, yeah. And I think Chelsea are saying that that's a big factor in terms of, you know, why you can't, you know, we're not panicking too much. I think they're four red cards in five of their defeats in the past five months.

40:15Yeah. So that's, but that's another factor, right? It's the young team. This isn't a new story with Chelsea, is it? Last season, they had the most yellow cards. They had 99. It's a very, it's a very mixed picture, very muddled picture. And it's not been convincing yet. They haven't made that step. and I think that's what everyone expected them to do but they haven't Just sometimes when the team sheet arrives when I go cover a Chelsea game I still sometimes look at it and think Who's he? You spent£1.5 billion and you're starting with Tyreek George up front Garnaccio in the wing who there's still a lot of question marks about Pedro Neto in the other who's good and Facundo Bonanotti behind him who like he thought why haven't you signed him in the first place and this is who they're playing in their first Champions League home game in a few years and again and as you say at the back you've got Chalaba who they tried to sell, they tried to sell Tyreek George on the final day of the glass transfer window as well, so you've got Chalaba who they tried to sell at the back with Vardy Shield who's not good enough and it's extraordinary They've returned Mark Gray from Sunderland but the suggestion is they can't play him because he's already played for Sunderland briefly and then if he plays for Chelsea, that's your two clubs and actually what they want is to put him out on loan again in January.

41:40So if he plays again for Chelsea this season, that puts the car bus on that. And you think, this is not as coherent as it should be. And it looked really smart at the Club World Cup last year because with the Club World Cup, One of the reasons that people aren't spotting how bad this will be if it was to go to two years and this idea that you're going to get... Oh, and then the weakness of the Club World Cup was that it didn't have the champions of England and it didn't have the champions of Italy and it didn't have the champions of Spain. And you go, OK, that's good, right? So you know you've won the league in end of May, start of June sometimes abroad, and then you've got two weeks to prepare for playing until halfway through July.

42:35That's disastrous. The reason the Club World Cup, Chelsea had time to prepare. Chelsea actually brought players and assembled this huge squad that we all go, and they're crackers. What are they doing? These have got so many players. But actually what they were doing was preparing for a season that at best ended in the middle of July. The less time you've got, the less notice you've got that you're in the Club World Cup, the less time you've got for doing that and the more pressure there will be on players. So every two years is a really bad idea. It's a really bad idea. And making the qualification very, very recent is not the best idea either.

43:15So Chelsea in the past, their recruitment has been quite smart in its own way. What they did to prepare for that tournament was very, very clever. But then you thought, right, now you've done it. So now this can all settle down a bit. It can calm down a bit. And now you're on to stage two, which is, let's see if we can catch Liverpool. But then it's gone back to, you know, well, hey, here we go again. Here we go, techno. Right, we get six in, six out, this one. when did this stop being a science experiment you know, quite bizarre Well, a 1-0 win for Chelsea against Jose Mourinho's Benfica, it wasn't all that convincing a couple of moments were kind of classic Jose as well when Enzo Fernando was trying to take a corner in the first half and he'd been pelted by with like projectiles by his, he obviously came from Benfica by his former supporters.

44:18Josie, the hairs off down the touchline with his hands up in the air pleading for calm, like wonders never cease you know, so yeah a bit of a reminder of the Josie of old but the truth is I think both Josie and Chelsea slightly faded force from the days when the two were joined, so quickly Martin, West Ham West Ham, right Noura Spiritus Santos first game start at West Ham started with a one-all draw at Everton on Monday night. What do you make of, this is the first time we've had you on since Graham Potter dismissed Nuno's appointment. What did you make of that decision and the appointment of Nuno?

44:56Well, I think the decision, the decision looks as if it's made at a strange time and a lot of people say, oh, they made him give the press conference on Friday. I think that was a lot more to do with who Nuno's agent is and how easy it is to get a deal with Jorge Mendes over the line and things that you think are going to get done quite quickly, don't end up getting done quite as quickly as you think they are. But what I liked about Nuno, and what I like about any manager that wants to go in, roll your sleeves up and take the first game. And he took it on the back of one training session, really, one and a half, maybe.

45:37And I liked that. And he did make an impact. And the team did look different. and he did give a start to a player that hasn't played all season. And he did bring, you know, there were youth players on the bench. West Ham had a team that won the Youth Cup. West Ham had a team that went quite deep into the one where you play the teams from the EFL. they went quite deep into that West Ham's young players as well and which no one does because everyone thought the academy teams would stuff everybody and it's not been like that at all has it, they've never got anywhere but West Ham's kids actually got to the quarter finals or something, they did quite well and they never get a chance they haven't got a chance for ages there you can go all the way back to David Moyes and so I liked that as well and it was a good point I mean I was watching it on the box I didn't know what game the fellas who were watching it on the box were watching because I kept talking about Everton dominating and I'm looking at it and thinking they're not dominating this at all it's just very very even in fact West Ham might just have shaded this and then West Ham equalised and they started talking about West Ham dominating I couldn't quite work it out but no How do you feel?

47:04Do you feel Nuno's there to stave off relegation or to bring back attractive football? I would bloody hope someone's there to stave off relegation, Ali. I really would. I hope someone's thinking we need to stave off relegation because they really do. But do you get the impression that he's being terribly pragmatic and he doesn't care how he gets the results as long as he starts getting points on the board? Or is he under pressure to entertain the crowd? No. Look, if you look at... That'll come next to you. Yeah, West Ham can worry about entertaining the crowd once they're not going to get relegated.

47:39Because last year, let's be honest, West Ham weren't going to get relegated. Everyone knew that by about January and no one was getting entertained at the London Stadium last year. So I really do think the golden era of West Ham football is one of the biggest myths, having grown up supporting them. At the moment, what they need is someone to stabilise this team, to get it moving away from the bottom three, and then you can worry about it. Because, look, David Moyes' football, which was great for West Ham, was never really mistaken for a fortnight's holiday in the Bahamas. It really wasn't. David Moyes was a pragmatist as well.

48:28West Ham will accept pragmatism they will accept pragmatism they don't like getting beat 3-0 at home by Burnley that's the one thing that has discovered it's like the stadium the stadium is perfectly acceptable when they're beating Seville at home not as acceptable when they're losing 3-0 at home to Burnley and a lot of people marching outside and saying we want to go back to the Bowlin Bowlin was the pub on the corner it was the pub on the corner I don't care what anyone says we played at Upton Park I've never understood all this sort of the nostalgia around West Ham the only time it said the bowling ground was on the front of the programme and if you looked at the Football League handbook it said the bowling ground we played at Upton Park I used to meet my mates outside the bowling it would be a hell of a bad meeting place that wouldn't it if you were saying I'll meet you outside the bowling or whereabouts in the bowling there's a bus garage on one side and there's you know we played at Upton Park I don't know where all this comes from there's a lot of nostalgia around this but I do think the way that London Stadium is the gap between what you need in terms of what you're watching is an expansive football and the sort of breakaway football that Nuno can bring and had with Forrest that will look very pretty at the London Stadium if he's able to do that you know, set up defensively but use pace if he gets enough of it, then that could be something that the London Stadium fans buy into.

50:05Because too often it's tumbleweed there. There's nothing to see. No, I do agree. But it's been like that, you know, for a while, really. It's been like that for a while. Now, the sort of high energy, you know, as football has gone towards this high energy game, West Ham kept buying players that were just slower and slower and you're like looking at it and thinking, what is the spec? What spec are we giving the technical director? What we want is, you know, we want a couple of midfield players. Are they slow? You know, we like them slow at West Ham. And you're thinking, it looks so wondrous. and the other night at Hill Dickinson Stadium it suddenly there was a little bit about it.

50:53The summer transfers, which everyone said were disastrous, the left back looks all right, the kid from Southampton looks all right. It could be a little bit better than people think it is, you know. Finally. Finally. Finally, then the final sort of external sport reference from your column this week about... You were referring to the abuse that Rory McIlroy received and gave back at the Riders Cup last week and sort of realising and referencing that footballers are kind of saints who are not doing the same more often. That was the kind of gist of your column. Yeah, I just looked at it. I was talking to a couple of footballers about all of that and, you know, footballers who play golf and everything and we were chatting about the Ryder Cup and everyone was sort of marvelling, really, that when you see the level of abuse that's directed at footballers, when you hear the level of abuse that's directed at footballers, everyone seemed like very, like, behind Rory and turning round and pointing his finger at people and telling them to F off and all of this.

52:09And you think, if a footballer does that, there's murders. One, someone goes to the police and tries to get them arrested. And two, there's potential for FA charges. And also, I mean, Chris Wilder got sent off this week, didn't he, for kicking the ball because it went into the crowd and stuff. I was just drawing a comparison. And everyone thought it was unacceptable that the golf fans were doing that, which is absolutely true, it was totally unacceptable. But no one sort of seems as bothered when it happens to footballers. It's almost as if, well, they've got to learn to live with it. They've got to take it.

52:51That's just to be expected. It's sort of strange. Ali Martin referenced as well, Diego Simeone had a sort of altercation with a fan at Anfield recently. Why is this accepted? Why is it accepted in football that footballers are fair game? Well, it's tribal. And if you want, the beauty of football is the tribalism and the fans. I mean, the biggest threat to football, I think, is football tourism. Everyone going with their phones to capture selfies with the fans behind them. But there are no fans behind them because there's more people's selfies. They're taking selfies of people behind them who aren't fans either.

53:33And the main reason you get people spending a lot of money in the club shop, on airfares, coming in, they'll come in to Birmingham or Liverpool or Manchester just to say they've been at the atmosphere. And that atmosphere is built on chants that are witty, but often veer into abusive. But you can't have great wit and a crackling atmosphere without there being that intense rivalry and elements of nastiness. And the reason you get what Martin says about FA charges and so on is because you don't want it to spill over too far. But I just think it belongs to football and I wouldn't have it any other way.

54:19I would hate football to be polite. It's awful. You think about the reaction and response and this almost seems like it was a crisis at West Ham when Jared Bowen had that altercation. He couldn't even call it an altercation, really, with his own fans. And he apologised within 45. If anyone goes back at the fans, they're apologising within half an hour, because someone from the club has gone, we don't want this, we don't want a war with the fans. Apologise. And so I do feel for the guys, because could you imagine, I mean, look, and I'm not saying Simeone has ever been mistaken for a way of sunshine either, But can you imagine what it is like around that away bench at Anfield?

55:06On what is happening? It's an extension of what happens on the pitch, though. Managers will instruct players to wind certain players up. Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's that level of aggression. So you can't blame, in a way, you can't blame the fans for joining in. Yeah, no, I'm not blaming anyone. me is just that I just think that I thought it was quite ironic how outraged everyone was on behalf of Team Europe and how much they supported Team Europe doing something that if footballers did it, everyone would go nuts. Everyone would go nuts. I think we can all agree that that's true. Russell Martin, another one at Rangers just now, he's been getting all sorts.

55:49He's incredible. But you can't see a word in reply. Yeah, but I feel I was at Norwich, I might have said this, I was at Norwich versus Liverpool a few years ago and I was in the director's box and Billy Gilmore was making his debut for Norwich that day and his mum and dad and his little brother were in the row in front of me and his mum had a trouser suit on that was absolutely vivid canary yellow and they were so into it, the mum, dad and Billy's younger brother. They were really into it. Now, he'd been a Chelsea player, you know, most of his career, but he's gone to Norwich, they're behind him.

56:36You know, they so want it to succeed. They seemed a great family, a really supportive family. And by the end of that season, he was getting absolute terrible abuse from the home crowd. I always thought that's a real shame because it must be horrible for that family to hear that. They were chanting for him to F off out of the club and all this sort of stuff. I'm thinking, and that family was so supportive and so up for just switching their allegiance to Norwich because Billy was playing for Norwich and they really wanted Norwich to do well. I was just thinking that must have been horrible for them to hear.

57:17You know, if you've got kids yourself and stuff, you'd think gee and so that was all that's all yeah well look I'm not having anyone slagging off Urbilla either so I'm not happy with Norwich fans after that one anyway thank you very much for joining us Martin, Alison, Pete we'll be back on Monday to review all the biggest games at the weekend including Chelsea against Liverpool and West Ham and Arsenal hope to see you then that is three points to Arsenal

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