Are Liverpool lucky and do Arsenal have the best squad?

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2:01Unai Emery and debate who has the strongest squad in the Premier League I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the chief correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times Martin Samuel the former striker turned columnist Tony Cascarino and the former defender turned journalist Gregor Robertson is here as usual Chaps, we're all in the new studio it's quite cosy now all four of us are in here isn't it? Yeah, lovely It's kind of heating up though We'd make a good back for us four I think We're tight We're definitely very compact because I think we've got a left back Martin I'd see you as the like creative right back Bit Trent Alexander-Arnold Not quite as in centre half Capable of brilliance but does wind people up every now and again Two TCs at centre back Tony would do all the work, I'd just mouth off at everyone during the game, probably get sent off a few times I think we'd do pretty well Gregor I don't know, I think you'd be quite a soft centre half I could see that coming a mile off Anyway, speaking of centre-backs, talking about Virgil van Dijk, let's go to Anfield, where he scored a big winner for Liverpool against Atletico Madrid.

3:09Martin, last season at this stage was all about ruthless Arnie Slott, winning games quite comfortably, nice and early, all the drama of the Jurgen Klopp era had gone. Well, it's back and back with a vengeance at Liverpool this season. A big, big win. Do we think... Well, let's start with the win, just to start. A good start for Liverpool to get a win in this game. Yeah, yeah, it's a win. And I mean, Tony, what did you make of the game in terms of Liverpool's performance? Because, you know, the big thing is Isaac starts, all these players starts, Eketike drops. Yeah, well, I mean, it was all written beforehand, wasn't it?

3:41He talked about it, that he's only going to give Isaac a certain amount of time, which he did. Liverpool come flying out of the blocks, just Atletico not being what Atletico were before in years gone by, and them some, aren't they? You know, because you look at him on the sidelines, you're just thinking, wow, he just goes crazy, doesn't he, all the time, every five minutes, Simone. But he's clearly battling against the power of Real Madrid in Spain and Barcelona, and the club gets huge support. Again, you look at it and think, well, they should be challenging for the Champions League in some way, but they've got a lot of older heads.

4:18Griezmann is still a good player, but he's not a great player like he once was. Llorente goals, two great strikes, even though he gets a bit fortunate on the second one with a deflection. I think it's typical of Liverpool's seasons so far. They always look like they're going to score goals for whatever position on the pitch. It looked like he'd missed a pre-season. It really did. He's sharp and he showed some great, nice little touches, but not much more than that. I'm pretty sure there'll be a lot more to come from him. Yeah. I mean, things to come back to there, various different players and things picking up, but just on this idea of another late winner for Liverpool, a third victory so far coming in the 90th minute or later with the other two being goal, you know, get matches being won in the 80th minute to the 90th.

5:02Are these late goals for Liverpool, are they a sign of like champion mentality and like trophy winning, you know, the best teams win it late? Or is it a little bit getting into the territory that it's a little bit too lucky now to do it on the trot and that there's signs that they maybe need to improve? What do we think? Well, it's not sustainable. I don't know. It's quite easy to draw conclusions. Clearly it's going on for a while now. And part of it is the fact that Liverpool have like so many kind of weapons whether it's a set piece that they can do it from whether it's someone who can produce a moment of magic but I think the biggest thing is it's not sustainable Liverpool need to see out games better if they're going to succeed on any front really and not allow teams back into the game or kind of gift them goals these were good goals to be fair and one was a deflection as well but it's not something they can sustain through the season I think it's a sign of a good team I think it's I think it's very similar to Manchester United and everyone remembers the commentary in New Camp for the final Clive Tillsley says can they score, they always score well they didn't always score you look at Manchester United's results they don't always score late on but everyone knew what he meant I mean if he just said can they score they often score It wouldn't be quite as memorable a line, but it would be nearer the truth.

6:29They often did score. And you think this Liverpool team are showing the same? Yeah, I think the similarities between the two teams that I touched on in the column on Tuesday, they're massively front-loaded. They're very, very attack-minded. Both teams, he's got so many good forward players on the pitch slot, just as Ferguson did. So they create this immense amount of pressure with inferior opponents. And actually, Atletico Madrid are not particularly inferior opponents. They're very good opponents. And we've seen Atletico Madrid hold out against very, very good teams, really exceptional teams, and they've held out late.

7:12So I'm not necessarily saying... But say Burnley, for instance, who are, without a doubt, an inferior opponent to Liverpool. there was a sense I know how late it was and I know it's fortunate and it hits the guy's arm and he's got his back turned and it's a you know a sort of rash thing to do but at the same time they created this immense pressure that puts doubt in the minds of lesser players and lesser teams and I don't think it's a coincidence and I didn't think it was a coincidence when Manchester United did it and everyone said about Fergie time and this I thought it was I thought where it was Fergie time was that Fergie had packed his team with attacking players again.

7:57I didn't actually think, I know people say, oh, I just stopped watching. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, it was more about the players. Yeah, I would say that it helps as well when you've got someone like Schelsker and Sharon who can come on as a Champions League game and having that type of personnel. Now, if you go back, take a step back, Jurgen Klopp spoke openly about wanting everybody to stay inside the stadium. because he felt it made a difference. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that plays a part that, you know, there's nothing where, because on the pitch, you do notice sometimes there's streams of people walking out.

8:30Now, I'm not saying that's the whole reason, but I do think if you keep everybody on board knowing that you can get a vital goal in the dying minutes of a game, you know, it's not just a coincidence they've done it so often, is it? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's just regular. But like Martin said, it's not always, but it's often. But we are overlooking the fact that they're allowing teams back into the game in the first place quite frequently. I mean, the Newcastle one, if you want to think that. You're pessimists. Tends to be a defender. They're meant to be pessimists. You're meant to be an optimist.

9:01It doesn't matter what I am. That's one of your central tenets in football, isn't it? Yeah, it is. It's from Reno. That was Reno. Reno said that. He wanted his defenders to be pessimists and his attacking players have got to be optimists. Well, Liverpool... Go on. David Luiz, that's why... David Luiz, he thought, was too optimistic to be a defender. He never thought anything was going to go wrong. But Liverpool have got a lot of optimists on the pitch now. That's what I'm going to say. I'm still not quite so sure about their defence. I'd say Konati is still having a shaky start to the season. Question marks about the full-backs in terms of a defensive discipline.

9:42And there's just been a few lapses from set-pieces and things like that. so the reason that they're having to score so many late goals like in three of the games at least so far it's because they've let the other team right back into the game well from four really it's the Chiesa goal against Bournemouth goes in in the 88th that's why I didn't include it but you know you've got Rio and Goma and then the Burnley game Salah penalty 90 plus and then the Van Dijk one as well yeah but they weren't letting Burnley back in all I'm saying is they had the lead against Bournemouth they had the lead against Newcastle and they had the lead against Atletico and they squandered it and then they had to find something from somewhere.

10:16So that's got to be a concern. Is that a team in transition though or is that a team that maybe has strengthened very much up the top like Martin says, we're going to go out and win. Well, this is the result of the transition. They have more attack-minded players on the pitch now, largely speaking. They're playing with more of a number 10 now and they have either two new full-backs who aren't as disciplined defensively or they're putting in Andy Robertson who had a shaky season last season. Just on that, obviously Kirkhaz diving against Burnley and has looked a bit shaky so far this season as much as he was brilliantly hyped last season and rightly so for Bournemouth.

10:53Robertson comes back in. Is that a problem area for Liverpool, do you think? Yeah, it's something we highlighted at the start of the season. I think we shouldn't gloss over the fact that they've lost or half of their back four from such a hugely successful team have gone or are being, you know, Trent's moved on. the frimpong who's coming in is not as disciplined defensively he's an attacker he's basically a winger Connor Bradley if he can stay fit is a very good defender but he has to stay fit Andy Robertson there are question marks about but I still actually would Tony said this in his columns I would say that he'd be playing from what we've seen from what we've seen but if you're not playing him as I said at the start of the season you lose some of the sort of intangibles as well about having someone who's experienced a winner like a leader as well and you lose someone if you've got Trent in your team you're looking at him you think he can win us the game as well not just from a defensive point of view well I yeah I spoke on Monday for Tuesday's paper I think about Kirk is and I just think to me it's quite obvious he's still not as good as Andy Robertson I think Andy Robertson might not quite be the player he was but he's still the best Is that a bit of revision because last season we loved Kirk at everyone you go to Liverpool fans absolutely adore Andy Robertson yeah he's just and for right reasons because like Gregor said, he's just the serious older pro that comes in.

12:14He'll bomb forward and get in positions of danger. He'll cause havoc by his running and he'll also get back as quick as he can. I think Kirk has found it really difficult. It's not to say that he can't improve, but I do think as we stand today, and I said this after the weekend, I think Andy Robertson is most definitely Liverpool's best left back. In terms of the forward line, just to finish on that, Isaac, getting those minutes that you said, Tony, that kind of slotted out lined. Ekotike who's had a good start to the season drops to the bench do we see it as a choice between those two? do we see a team in which they can both play, start?

12:47they can but it would probably mean worse dropping out and you could play Ekotike off the left but I'd say that would be strange so it's possible but I think more often than not it's going to be one or the other Slott said before the game he said that he basically sees them both as a number nine I've always thought that if they knew they were going to get Isak, and they say that, oh no, it was always the play in Eketike and Isak. No, I'm not having that. If they knew they were going to get Isak, they wouldn't have spent all that money on Eketike. They didn't buy Virgil van Dijk and£65 million on the reserve centre-half, did they?

13:29They didn't buy a goalkeeper for whatever Alisson was and someone else for about£5 million less to be his understudy. you don't spend that money on someone that is not going to play every single week. Because he's not quite as good or because it gives you a problem, a headache? Because it gives you a problem. Does that not go back to your point about Manchester United that you said a minute ago? They had Solskjaer, Sheringham, Cole, York. If you're going to be the very, very top, you have two world-class number nines. But that guy, Eketike... They played two up front too. You could play two up front.

14:00No, they played two up front and they're not going to play two up front. Exactly. but Eketike the price and the offers that the man had he's a first team footballer you know you could argue that Teddy by the time he was at Manchester with all the strokes you know exactly do you know what I mean it's a different stage different stage in his career Solskjaer as well Solskjaer Alex actually thought that Solskjaer was better off the bench because he said he'd never met a footballer that watched a game the way that Solskjaer watched when he was on the bench. He said, footballers get distracted, they start talking to their mate or whatever.

14:41He said, Oli, you could have stopped the player at any stage and asked it and he would have told you exactly who was tiring. He could have told you exactly where the spaces were. So when he went on, he knew exactly what he was about. That's why the man scores four goals coming off the bench against Forest. I was there that day. Now, I don't know. Eketike doesn't look like the sort of fellow that you get to a club by saying, oh, by the way, we're going to buy Isak in a couple of months' time once he's got his act together and you're his understudy. That doesn't get Eketike. Tony, final word from you on those two?

15:24Martin, you know, suggesting there's going to be... I'm pretty sure. Arnish is absolutely delighted he's got two great choices. Oh, mate, I don't disagree with that for one second. Tony. I don't disagree with that for one second. If Liverpool are going to show their muscle on what they did last year and, you know, looked, I mean, they were so far ahead of everybody, I felt, last year in many departments. And then they go even stronger this year in the centre-forward position. And I just think it allows him to have a choice. And one thing you get with a 22-year-old is that nine times out of ten, I'll have a little bit more patience.

15:56It's not like he's a go, 26 who's came in, have gone, I should be playing. You feel like if Isak is not on his game, I could take him a play without a doubt. We know that. And I don't think Arnie Slott's afraid of making that choice. And vice versa. And I think that's just part of a giant football club that sometimes you have two great players in one position and they'll go, well, how long can you suffer it? No one really knows how long that beat us for years. But they were bought within a month of each other. Yeah, yeah. That's the bit that I don't know. Or two months or six weeks or whatever it was.

16:29It's that part. If you've got Eketike and he's been in your team and you want an upgrade, that's different. That's a totally different thing. But they bought this guy and then they bought the other guy and it's in the same summer. And they're saying, oh, yes, we definitely would have bought, we definitely would have spent, what was it on Eketike? 85 million. We definitely would have spent 85 million on a reserve centre forward. We always knew we were getting this guy. And you're thinking, look, they will say otherwise. I'm not convinced. It's not comparable, is it? Because Newcastle have gone the same thing, ultimately.

17:08They're side two centre-forwards. We might go. Walt Mardet and Visser. No, but how much have they spent, Tom? About£100 million versus£200 million, though. And they also needed a striker. They were going to sign a striker in the first place. Liverpool lost in the list and lost, unfortunately, Yotta as well. I think if they kept Isaac, surely, and then signed Visser, you'd have been like, oh, that's good. You know, a bit of support in the forward. I don't think Liverpool are looking into that market. No, no, I don't think they are either. But it's still a hell of a... Listen, it's a good problem to have, as you say, Tony, for Arnie Slott.

17:40Liverpool fans, if you've got views on your start to the season or your... not problems, good problems to have in the forward areas, get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Let's talk about Chelsea, the English team suffering defeat so far in the first round of matches. losing 3-1 away at Bayern Munich. Martin, what do you make of this game, this performance from Chelsea? Obviously, Alison on Monday's show talking about the rest and rotation from Enzo Maresco. She felt he had all eyes on Bayern Munich, even though he disputed that in the press conference. Did Chelsea look a little bit out of their depth against a very good side?

18:13Not out of their depth, but they weren't good. I didn't think they were good. I thought people were talking them up. And I was watching it. and I always thought Bayern Munich were the better team. Now, having said that, no one will ever be able to explain to me what the referee did for the free kick. Because if it's a dropped ball, you've got to tell the opposition that it's a dropped ball. You can't just drop it so that the Bayern Munich player can take it on the bounce. I'm really sorry. that was strange but that aside the penalty's a penalty and Barmune were much much better in the second half than Chelsea I thought it was an ordinary performance from Chelsea any bright sparks for Chelsea Cole Palmer he's back isn't he I'll make Cole Palmer look fabulous Chelsea's goal Chelsea's goal is magnificent absolutely magnificent and the goal that wasn't too and the goal that wasn't I mean both goals what a touch Yeah, he's incredible.

19:21Coldpalmers, 100th appearance for Chelsea, 45 goals and 29 assists. Starting to look like one of the bargain signings of the Chelsea recent era. Talking about Bayern Munich then, actually, before we talk about Bayern Munich, I wanted to bring in some news from this morning. Jose Mourinho looking like he's already back in management after being sacked by Fenebache, returning to Portugal with Benfica, which means he will face Chelsea on September 30th. where do we think Mourinho's heading in his kind of legacy career you know here he needs a good period at a club doesn't he or he's heading into kind of parody territory yeah yeah yeah I think he's an idea yeah I mean look it's taken over a team that just got beat by Carabag at home so the idea that oh this is a big problem for Chelsea you think well yes and no I mean the beer's a big problem for Jose if he's got a team that can't beat Carabag at home so in terms of legacy though because you know this was a guy who had a huge impact on the Premier League but in the last couple of jobs he was pitching for a championship job not long ago remember you've seen any teams in England not in UEFA competition so maybe a bit down I know you've seen that tongue in cheek but like it's not it's not been good for a while and I think it just kind of seems more and more better as well can you separate the two things can you remember the kind of cocky confident special one guy versus this guy you have to the kind of firebrand who swept into English football and like played great football lots of goals and although it was like you know kind of conservative at its outset it's so many talented attacking players on the pitch at that first Chelsea team and has scored a bag full of goals but since then it's just been it's been like trying to just trying to stop the opposition.

21:15That's really what he's been for years and years. And it's not made for any excitement in terms of the spectacle. And then it's made for a very bitter aftertaste in most of his interviews after the game. Yeah. I mean, look, he's had a few seconds as well, hasn't he? With Manchester United in the Premier League that he says is one of his greatest achievements. Which is starting to look like it, by the way. Right, exactly. Fenerbahce last year, they got second. Well, you might go, yeah, there's only two or three teams in Turkish football. Yeah, I mean, I learnt a lot in the early Mourinho days going to games and you sit there and you're just thinking, you're watching Jose and you see him moving around, but you also see tactical decisions and substitutions.

21:58There was a period where he was the best, whether that's the sort of early 2000s, 2000 coming up for five and all around there. He was an absolute magician of changing team. I was at the game against Bolton at home and Bolton were good in the first half and he completely changed the dynamic of Chelsea to go out in the second half and ended up winning, I think it was 5-1 in the end. And I remember thinking, that's all because of Jose's, you know, tweaked a bit and seen the problems and reacted to it. We've still got fond memories of Jose Mourinho. That's good, that's good, that's good. He would do things that no other manager would do, like change three players at the same time, at half time.

22:38Didn't he do it against Fulham as well? He got beat in that game. He changed them after like 25 minutes. He took Sean Wright, Phillips and a few others off. Yeah, he took three players off and put three players on. But it's that cluffy sort of mentality. You know, we all love him. And if he gets it right often. I still say today, I got a text from Jose years ago and I've mentioned it before. And I still think it's one of the best texts I've ever got because all he'd done was say, thank you very much for speaking so highly of me and all. And I'm thinking, oh dear, I've caused my own problem here because I'm meant to have no partisan towards Chelsea.

23:09that's why you're being so nice to Jose Mourinho on the game podcast that makes more sense like talking about Bayern Munich then we talked about some strikers already but let's talk about Harry Kane another masterful performance from the England captain he's got 10 goals and three assists so far this season he's also in a list with Cristiano Ronaldo and Neymar as the only three players to have scored 20 plus goals for two different clubs in the Champions League I mean has anyone ever said Harry Kane's the best striker in Europe is he the best striker in Europe he's one of them that's what I mean he always gets to he's one of them and no one ever goes Harry Kane is the best striker in Europe the best forward Erling Haaland's great Alexander Izak might be fantastic Lewandowski's up there as well but Harry Kane is the best striker I think people could have said that and could have you know he could have had his name put into that conversation more easily or readily if he'd made his move earlier in his career like this feels like he's having you know he's he's having in a twilight of his career a massive flourish at one of a European giant and when he he stayed too long at Spurs like that thing that's the only reason why he was never playing in the Champions League or very rarely playing the Champions League for Spurs or like competing for major trophies to really be sort of put into that conversation I think up with people like Lewandowski.

24:32Again, he's one-off. He's one-off. He only gets the one-off. He only gets the one-off. Because he's one-off. That's why. Who else is he in there then? So Harland. Erling Harland is in there without a shadow of a doubt. If you had to pick one. If I had to pick one, I'd pick Erling Harland. But he's an out-and-out centre forward. You could potentially play Erling Harland and Harry Kane. You could potentially play them. It'll be a very brave... Yeah. It'll be a very brave... and they could be running the same space or whatever. I thought Kane was fantastic last night. I really thought Kane was fantastic last night.

25:08But it's one of them. While you're at Bayern Munich, while Bayern Munich are winning, when they win at the weekend five again, they won their first match six. They've got a 100 % record. He's such an alpha club in Germany. It's almost the opposite with Tottenham, where you looked at Harry Kane's record in this country and you go, and he's doing this at Tottenham. He's not doing it at Manchester City. He's not doing it at United or Liverpool. He's doing this at Tottenham. Whereas now, it's the flip side where you look at it. Well, it's Bayern Munich. I mean, you're going to score goals if you're Bayern Munich centre-forward.

25:46But he can't help either of those things. No, I'm not saying that. But, you know, mate, I'm a huge Harry Kane fan. Sorry, Tom. But he's one of the best. It's a bit of a flawed question, isn't it? Go on. I mean, well, because, you know, if you're going to argue who the best, you know, in the last 10 to 15 years, you've had Ronaldo and Lionel Messi. No, I'm asking now, right now, who is the best striker in Europe? It's a simple question, not a flawed one. Oh, what, through four games? No, overall. I listed his record in the Champions League. Tom, Tom, you can answer that question. Who is the best forward in Europe?

26:20Right. Through what? That's a reasonable point, though, when you're talking about these guys you just discussed. of no longer playing in the Champions League. I want to hammer him though. I want to hammer Tom. You know, we think Isak could step up to be in that conversation, but he's not done it yet. He's not done it yet. I would say he's the most, for me, the most definite best finisher as a centre forward because his finishing is extraordinary, Kane. He's not blessed with incredible pace. I mean, comparing like Martin said with Arlen Harland, he's got devastating pace as well and is a good finisher.

26:51But I still think Harry's the best finisher in world football from what I've watched and watching Champions League games, international games. Just think his eye for a goal is extraordinary. And that I definitely agree that I could easily go. No, for me, absolutely. But he's also now in a position to get lots of goals because he's got Diaz on the left and he's got Alisse on the right, which absolutely fit perfect for him. Yeah, absolutely. And Michael Alisse, Gregor, you must feel a little bit like a proud parent watching him in the Champions League. I remember maybe on this podcast, you saying or maybe chatting to me about the Football League when he was at Reading, saying that lad will play in the Champions League and you were right you have to get one right every now and again yeah every now and again he gets it right he is he is a star what's your worst one how long have you got no he is like just a joy to watch isn't he he is like you can pick a pass the weight of that pass into it might have been Kane in the second half as well like first time the things that most players don't see but also the ability to do a bit like we were discussing about Madiweki because he's left footed playing on the right he always comes in like he's going to play that cross and he'd boik and he'd play that cross to the back post but then he's got the pace just to chop it down the line and beat the man so he's a joy to watch and he's like you know that was a big move yeah massive he's also for him to turn down like you know Chelsea and other Premier League suitors and go to Bayern Munich was quite brave he's quite a kind of reserve character isn't he we know what he's like and he's flourished so fair play to him absolutely fantastic for more Football League insights make sure you listen to our EFL extra show every two weeks with me and Gregor we've got one coming up later this week we're going to take a quick break now time to test ourselves with Bill Edgar's weekly quiz from the Times website 10 questions online now here's one of them which has been the most common foreign nationality in the Premier League this season Manchester City have fielded two players from this nation and Arsenal won find out After the break.

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30:38This week on the Business Podcast, we have a new Prime Minister, Andy Burnham. There's already been a flood of mooted new policies with big consequences for business. The UK is very unique in the fact that we pay two forms of income tax. So let's see how brave they want to be. Join me, Hannah Previtt. And me, Dominic O 'Connell, for weekly conversations from the world of business and entrepreneurship. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts or find our channel on YouTube by searching Times Business.

31:15Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Martin Samuel, Tony Cascarino and Grego Robertson with me, all flummoxed by Bill Edgar's quiz. I gave them the four options to the answer, which nationality has featured most in the Premier League this season? Dutch, French, Spanish or Brazilian? The answer is Dutch. 35 Dutchmen have appeared with 29 Frenchmen next on the list, says Bill Edgar. City's Dutchmen have been Nathan Ake and Tajani Rinders. Arsenal have fielded Jury and Timber of course those two teams playing this week Arsenal picking up a big win in the Champions League we're moving back to Tuesday now and if the theme Gregor of Liverpool's season is becoming late goals then maybe Arsenal's is the use of their whole squad Gabriel Martinelli and Leandro Trossard off the bench before we get into bigger debates as ever good to start with a win but impressive away performance from Arsenal Yeah very impressive, quite dominant although they were kind of struggling to break you know to break the opposition down and as you said like two people were kind of cast onto the periphery the weekend because of the emergence of Ezi and Maduecki and you know Max Dowman and Waniere people that Arteta has called upon already this season seem to be more inclined to as well Martinelli comes on and there's a great because the first the kind of touch they took was like gave the defender like oh I can get this and then he just flipped it over it's one of those goals where you like marvel at modern footballers as athletes because I was like I couldn't even run that quick just running like if I was running away from something never mind like controlling a bouncing ball it was incredible it looked like when he was played three he's not going to have enough to get past it was that touch that kind of gave the defender the opportunity he thought to win it that got on the space and the goal but it was a great finish yeah great run and finish and like just forget Martinelli like that season when Martinelli and Saka were the they were the two best wingers in the league like you're talking two seasons ago yeah when they had that run towards the title and everyone was a bit shocked or was it three seasons ago three should be three seasons ago now yeah he's had one of one with skin of injury and then one where he he was like in and out of the team and I remember going to a Champions League game and he sort of and he and he was he was brilliant but it's just it's kind of hit and miss and that's been his issue he's not going to be a regular but if he's an impact player then it just adds to this kind of impression that we spoke about at the weekend the Arsenal squad is so stacked for all competitions I was going to say I think this is further proof of something that we mentioned on the show before Liverpool might have the strongest 11 we talked about the talent that they've got in the first half of the show but I think Madueke and Eze starring at the weekend Declan Rice was on the bench Odegaard going off this game with the two subs scoring I think Arsenal have got the best squad in the Premier League Thoughts?

34:16Gregor? One of them No they probably do like you're right in terms of the best squad I'm not saying Liverpool have got all the talent and brilliant attacking talent they've spent fast enough James Goober James Goober wrote a piece about that didn't he for the Times newsletter and he was comparing a lot of the squads and the second 11s second 11s and it does look it does look like one of the strongest the strongest probably and it's everywhere we're talking about the forward line but even in defence they've got at least two options for everyone every position sorry like Miles Lewis-Gale doesn't play Calafiore can you know Timber Ben White Mosquera's emergence like Saliba was on the bench in this game like they've got and then on top of that the young players the academy graduates who look like they're going to be good enough too just adds to the adds to the number of options Arteta has so like yeah I mean you're right to kind of question whether it's the best team but as a squad as I say it's so hard it's so hard now to compete on all fronts in every competition throughout the you know the full course of the season like that's why you need this that's why the whole debate about about Liverpool's front too One of them could be injured And it's completely forgotten That this is an issue It is an issue just now It's an interesting one Because it's rare that Two players are bought For that kind of fee As the number one Number nine if you like But So many games I was at the Arsenal game At the weekend And Arteta said it They need to play 70-74 games In a season now That's not really sustainable If you want to Go all the way So this is why They've uprooted Best squad in the league?

36:06Yeah, probably, probably. But they need to win something. Yeah. Because once you've got the best squad in the league, you've got to win something. You know, you can't keep saying, oh, well, yeah, well, they didn't win because they haven't got this and they didn't win because they're not quite there. So you go, this is the best squad in the league. So if you don't win something, blink and you're talking. You know, that's what happens. if you miss that opportunity when you've got the best squad in the league if you miss that opportunity to actually win some of the big stuff before you know it, your Tottenham and all you're talking about is when you should have won the league, when Leicester City won the league and when you should have done that and someone else did it instead Is that on Arteta then to win something this season?

36:59Well it's not on Bertie No but as in you're talking about blinking your Tottenham and stuff, is it more like the hierarchy and stuff or is this just on is the pressure on is the pressure on Arteta this is on Arteta the players at the moment the best squad in the league is working out 0.75 points per game behind Liverpool you know that's where they are at the moment 0.75 points per game behind Liverpool you're the best squad in the league you've just got to go out and win the league yeah Tony yeah no I think if you asked yourself the question who would be in front of them and the answer is you wouldn't think of one really and obvious I think defensively they're super strong Mosquera has got to be the signing I mean it's an early shout but one of the signings of the summer another one 13 million yeah well there's great deals that are always done you know we always talk about the biggest deals but sometimes you get bargains I go back to Andy Robertson when he went from Old City what was he 8 million to Liverpool something like that I thought it was 15 but I might be wrong well whatever either way it's cheap it's cheap yeah you know and they've had a few of them as well and Piero Hincapi as well he won the Bundesliga with Leverkusen not seen him yet but he's like that was another way you kind of crikey did they need him but this is what they're doing it for same with Norgard that's what I thought I thought after we had that conversation on Monday about Declan Rice on the bench God Zubamendi looked fantastic didn't he I thought hang on what I mean in the summer we were talking about Norgard and what a clever signing he is and thinking well bloke's not going to get anywhere near the team he's going to be playing in the caravan court he might over the course of the season you never know with injuries that's why whenever Arsenal one of the best players were injured like it was like you know this huge crisis you can't see that being the case for any player now I would say I still would say the two centre-halves because they are like in a bedrock like Gabriel and Saliba yes Mosquera has been great we'll see over the course of a season Ginkapi is a good player but those two are like Raya probably as well Kepa that's a good point David Raya if you look at Arsenal and what Martin was saying about yep everything you need to do but you've got to win the league now the only one question mark for me is have they got the mentality within the boot camp it's not about the ability of the players and how good they're covered in every position you then go into their kind of performance against Liverpool and then they've got City this weekend and like are you going to go and go but this is what I'm talking about there comes a moment where you just go like so you've got to win the league haven't you you know you've got the best squad Or the Champions League.

39:31Or the Champions League. You know, we'll take either. Yeah. But, you know, you've just got to do it. You've got to, you know, because otherwise that moment passes. Lee Westwood was the world's number one golfer and he was always going to win a major. Never did. And never did. Colin Montgomery. Colin Montgomery. And it never happened. It doesn't follow that you're the best, you're the next cab off the rank. Yeah. That doesn't follow in sport. there is a moment that you have got to take that opportunity. You have got to take it. If you don't, it doesn't necessarily come around next year because then suddenly people have£400 million on players and have gone, right, well, how do you like those?

40:13We see it in all types of sports. You see it in tennis, you see it in golf, you see it in all these great players individually and teams that don't win it. Just a quick word on Victor Jokerez, Tony, who's actually starting in a big game. he's done well at home against Nottingham Forest and Leeds but can you do it in bigger games and things what have you made of his start well it's again it's really early doors but he's done okay nothing exceptional but I think he's done you know I can see for me it was such an obvious thing they needed to compete someone compete with Havertz or whoever in the forward area and that's what allows Arteta to try and get him see goals are really important as in that if you get on a bit of a run you just change as a striker I can remember my best feeling is when I was on a run and just couldn't wait for the next game to come when I was on my bad run I was dreading the next game you know because that's how you feel and you can do as much training and all the preparation can be spot on and you go out there and you do or you don't and I think the very best always seem to be able to go and deliver yeah absolutely Arsenal fans or any other fans in the league if you want to dispute the idea that Arsenal have got the best squad in the Premier League get in touch with me tom.clark at the time .co.uk Tottenham up and running in the Champions League under Thomas Frank.

41:27I've got two Tottenham supporters with me on the editing desk this morning. I said, oh, how was it, lads? You know, enjoy yourselves at the game. They went, no, it's a bit crap. And I was like, what, Tottenham or the match? And they were like, both. So, you know, that's all we're going to say on Tottenham's 1-0 win against Villarreal. They got a bit lucky, but I would have a look at their matches. Have a look at their matches. If ever there is a team that should come in that top eight, it's Tottenham. I mean the point is trying to get on at the bookmakers because the bookmakers have spotted it I think they're two to one so they've got Bodo Glimt away then Monaco away and then just trying to look at their other Champions League fixtures they've got PSG though Copenhagen at home as well PSG away you've got to play somebody it's the freaking Champions League Dortmund and then Antarkt Frankfurt mate you know bearing in mind that's the Gregor that's another good catchphrase mate mate, that's the Martin Samuel, you don't need to say any more than that, mate.

42:28But if you're, you know, bearing in mind you've got to play someone good, so they've got PSG, but the rest of it you'd have picked yourself. It's a shame that doesn't quite come across in your columns when you're writing, but that is a lovely, we just click that up, mate, mate, mate. Mate, the whole column is mate. Mate. You know, if you actually read the whole column, it's every single item is actually mate. Mate. to Martin's point that is a good run of fixtures Gregor isn't it for Tottenham and Thomas Frank yeah I mean Dortmund's like Dortmund's had a 4-0 thriller yeah but they were 4-2 up going into injury time big Lloyd Kelly with a late goal that is still one of the best stories in football I think Lloyd Kelly going from Newcastle to Juventus but just on this Thomas Frank just getting a win getting the job done Yeah, well, that's what they're doing now under Thomas Frank already, which is such a point of difference to what came before.

43:28They look like they can see how it games. He was very pragmatic in Europe, wasn't he? I mean, you know, what came before is a bit of a difference. I mean, in Europe, they were very belt-and-braces towards the end. They were, they were, yeah. We've spoken about how puzzling that whole thing was, the idea that we could, you know, this is a means to an end, because it's cup football but in league form league football will just kind of stick to our ideology you should maybe have done that at Swansea yesterday indeed well we're going to talk about that in just a second as you say Martin Juventus 4-0 with Borussia Dortmund Real Madrid off and running with a 2-1 win against Marseille two penalties it's amazing it's amazing I think referees have got in for him really two penalties it's also still that same thing they've changed the manager and Real Madrid still finding a way to win my most hated football phrase at top level And it's this junior on the bench.

44:20Yeah, interesting what happens with him. PSG, the holders, up and running very much so with a 4-0 win against Atalanta. Trent, I'll tell you what is problematic, and it's from England's point of view, Trent missing out. Because the nearer you get to this tournament, and it looks like Rhys James will be the right back. If he's fit. There we go. So we need a reserve right back who is absolutely drilled because they are going to have to rest Rhys James. He did start Trent. He obviously came and taken off him. Yeah, he started, but he's got another... By the sounds, it's quite a significant one. Well, no, he's meant to be eight weeks.

45:04Yeah, two months. Absolutely torn his hamstring. But it's not a little tweak or whatever. It's a two-month job. I'm not sure he's too close to reserve right back. No, no, no, no. No, possibly not. but it's who is? well they've got Livermanto and Spence yeah Spence yeah I look at if Rhys James is fit he is the first choice but you're right having him available actually just for Trent himself as well this is a huge move and it's not started brilliantly for him but for England's point of view as well having him as an option is going to be very important well we certainly hope Trent Alexander-Arnold injury isn't as bad as feared and he can get back out there on the pitch for Real Madrid very soon we mentioned And Ange Postacoglu and his time at Tottenham.

45:48Let's talk very briefly about his time at Nottingham Forest. And I say briefly because he's not been there very long. It looked to be all going very well. He said he'd be up and running, Gregor, didn't he? He told you in that press conference on Saturday, you're going to see Ange football at Nottingham Forest against Swansea. 2-0 up, cruising through to the next round. Along comes Swansea with a goal in the 68th minute to give them a bit of chance. Just shut up shop, lads. Kit, get it done. 90 plus 3 90 plus 7 for Swansea congratulations to them a great win for them in the third round of the League Cup but it's not ideal for Ange is it Gregor?

46:26early days very very early days no no it's not ideal to kind of see grumpy Ange already before the cameras in front of the cameras and he was actually you know he was quite critical of his players considering it's his second game saying you know we looked like it's alright we'll score the third you know we got very complacent which is obviously true but he made a lot of changes in fairness and he did say he was going to do that he said he was going to but still you look for his team and you know he was giving Omari Hutchinson a start he gave Igor Jesus a start and got two goals came off at half time Makati a start Delane Bakwa who I said was brilliant when he came on against Arsenal he had a start Luiz as well Zinchenko like a lot of new players so you can you can forgive them for being you know slightly not firing on all cylinders but yeah it's more the optics in terms of like this is kind of what Spurs often did last season the whole Spursy word comes out and Forrest don't want to be associated with that which is a little bit lazy if we're honest the old Spursy thing because it's not Spursy it's Ange isn't it this is Andrew we're talking about but Martin talking about the optics It's not an ideal look.

47:43No, you don't want to get knocked out by Swansea when you go into injury time 2-1-up or extra time 2-1-up. Additional time, should I say, 2-1-up. No, but it is very early days and you've got to give it a little bit of time to settle down. And the thing is, with these League Cup matches and FA Cup matches, when Premier League teams rest players you often get you know the reserves aren't quite as good as everyone thinks they are sometimes everyone's always convinced if their team's failing that there's these 11 players that should be coming in and it'll all solve it often not the case and that the Championship's a decent level talking about Andrew Post-Coglund not having very long at Nottingham Forest so we shouldn't judge him too harshly Unai Emery has been at Aston Villa and lauded quite rightly for all his brilliance in recent seasons, but it's been a terrible start to the season for one of your former clubs, Tony.

48:44Finally scoring a goal, at least, Aston Villa in the draw with Brentford, but then going on to lose on penalties. What do we make of this Villa scenario? Because I mean, I've got a good friend of mine who's a Villa fan. There's no suggestions of like, you know, any problems with Unai Emery. No surprise there. I don't think any of us are suggesting there's anything wrong with the manager. Is this just a slow start to the season? Is this the kind of hangover of not making the Champions League? Is this a lack of signings in the summer? What do you think explains this start? Well, it was quite big problems last season, even though they had a decent enough year, because he brought in two big players on lots of monies, and Alonso came in, and also Marcus Rashford, to field positions.

49:22Asensio, yeah. Asensio, sorry. Asensio. And, yeah, bringing Asensio and Marcus Rashford, for, you know, would have been quite costly for the clubs. Villa looked to me, I was at the Brentford game in the league, and Brentford clearly exploited Villa on many occasions with pace, which they do brilliantly, and long throws. But Villa looked really narrow and they got caught. Oli Watkins is struggling and he's struggling to get chances. I'd go back to the Champions League games last year when he left him out and then there was all this speculation around Oli Watkins where he must have felt, I'm not really number one.

49:58What will I be next season? Will I be number one here? And they haven't been competitive in the transfer market. They are clearly a club that has been affected by financial fair play. That's why you've seen players move on, like Jacobs, to get a big move. Because they're having to sell some of their younger players and they're bringing in players. Javier Lerner, I thought was a great signing for them because I think he deserves a chance for another club. But Villa, Morgan Rodgers is playing just behind Olly Watkins. John McGinn's not playing quite as well as he was. But then you can say that about a lot of Villa players.

50:33not quite on their game and John McGinn's a really good player you know he makes things happen for Villa and Scotland good job you said that Gregor was about to get very upset no I know I know but I'm not it's not really I'm not saying anything but it feels like there's quite a number of players that are just not on top of their game the goal was a gift as well yeah like it's just you know Brentford's trying to play it from the back and you know Rob Possession and Elliot smashed it in it's like that's their one goal there's been nothing that wasn't created. Martin, you talked about Watkins and Rodgers and were mentioning Trent Alexander-Arnold.

51:11I was just saying, 52 leagues. I went through 52 leagues and there's nobody that hasn't scored a goal. Nowsy and Tickenham in the Western Premier League. Nowsy and Tickenham? And Tickenham. I thought you just made a weird noise. No, no, no. Nowsy and Tickenham have got one goal. Spill it.

51:35What nowsy? Nowsy N-A-I-L-S-E-A Tickenham is Twickenham without the W They're from North Somerset They've got one goal all season Nobody is saying That their number 10 Should be replacing Jude Bellingham Whereas Aston Villa With no goals all season They're number 10 did play very well He played really, really well. Don't get me wrong. He played really, really well. But, you know, let's get real. Producer Neil telling me it's Nailsy. Nailsy. Nailsy. Nailsy. Apparently that, not that that helps. No, it doesn't because I've tried to say it like he's said it and I still can't say it. But anyway, it's North Somerset.

52:25They've got one goal. They're in the Western Premier League. No, Aston Villa got zero goals. One goal in the Carabao Cup. but zero goals. Now, Nausey have got Antikinham. You don't know if it was Nausey goal or Antikinham goal. It was a merger. It was a merger between two villages. You don't really know if it was Nausey or Antikinham who scored, but someone scored, but they've done it in eight games. So Villa have still got four games to sort of get past that. That's the thing Unai MRA is going to be sticking up on the left-in-room wall. Look at these guys. Look at these guys. There's another one, isn't there, this weekend that is a milestone game, which is if Wolves get beat again.

53:06Because, you know, there's quite a few teams have lost four. 18 teams have lost their first four games in the Premier League, but I think it's only five, maybe six, then lost the fifth. You know, most people manage after four matches to, you know, the manager gets hold of them and goes, we get it together. Have any of them given the manager a new contract? Three-year contract. In the middle of this run. I tell you what I do not understand because people can argue about well you know it's a security thing if the players think the manager is about to get sacked they might down tools or whatever you're thinking well how much worse can it get, you can't get worse than zero really but what I don't understand is okay then give the man another year you know extend it by a year or something if what you want is security, three year contract I'm not sure the length matters because probably the severance will be the same.

54:02Maybe. I get your point, isn't I? But three years, yeah. Now's he, now's he. You just think, but you think like, you know, Manchester United's figures have come out and it's, oh, well, it cost us, cost them X amount to get rid of Eric Ten Hag. No, it cost you X amount to give him a new contract and then get rid of him six months later. But speaking of these three teams then, looking at the weekend, because Martin, you quite rightly raised the Wolves situation. Wolves are at home against Leeds, Nottingham Forest away against Burnley and Aston Villa away against Sunderland. So playing the three teams who've come up and have shown promise, certainly, Oh, but that's going to be better than last season.

54:43But in looking at these three games, are you seeing, Gregor, could we see more tough times for any of these sides? I think Wolves could turn over Leeds. He did a brilliant job last season. I'm not doubting that. but when you looked at their kind of business in the summer you know moving on Cunha and Ait Nouri even the sort of uncertainty about Brun Larsson up front managed to keep hold of him the kind of players were coming in were like you know Ferro Lopez is like young up and coming he's only played like less than 30 games fewer than 30 games in La Liga Colombian winger always played in South America not much of a certainty in terms of arriving to the Premier League and making an impact quick enough plus on top of that you look at his you know the manager's record his career record he's only there's only like two jobs where he stayed more in a year yeah yeah like he's he's an impact he's obviously been an impact manager he made an impact last year there were just a few things that kind of went into thinking this could be a difficult year and I think it will be a difficult year but you know it's whether they can games like this against the teams who come up are going to be important and over the course of the season So you're also saying having picked that one out that Forrest away at Burnley and that Avila away at Sunderland no guarantees because that's a great position for the promoted sides to be in because last season we were going three points done, move on Burnley have had a good start they've been really unlucky late goals against United and Liverpool they've had a pretty tough start as well and yeah Forrest obviously under a new manager not going to be straightforward We're checking around the point that Gregor's making there about Wolves and very young players, 30-odd games.

56:31That's part of the thing with the Arsenal squad. You look at Chelsea's squad and they keep buying these players and they turn up and you're looking at them thinking, is he still getting free milk or whatever? How old is this kid? Arsenal are buying players that you go, oh, right, he could walk straight into a first team if necessary. There's no schooling needed. Some of them are young, but yeah. Some of them are young, but they're massively experienced. Speaking of Arsenal then, they've got this game, we've talked about them as title contenders, at home against Manchester City. What type of game do we think we're going to see?

57:08I'm not asking for predictions, but this feels like the first time that maybe Arsenal are going into this game going, right, we're going to lay this down in terms of the dominance that we can show at home, and that we're going to see a bit of counter-attacking Man City, lumping it long to Erling Haaland. What do we reckon? I think it will be a lot of set pieces, a lot of play from Arsenal, and they'll dig deep and knowing that City can exploit you if you just overload in certain positions. And I think they'll make it as fire as they can, Arsenal, because they'll want to do that against City. Is that your very eloquent way of saying it's going to be nil-nil?

57:40No, actually, I do think Arsenal will win. I think they've got enough in the way they play the game. I don't see City handling... I mean, look, Donnarumma is a goalkeeper that's made, as we've seen in the last six months, nine months, made unbelievable saves. He did one against Emberumma last week, didn't he, in the derby against Manchester United, producing that one save. I just think Arsenal have much more than City now in all departments. I don't think Diaz is quite the centre-half, even though he signed a new contract. They've changed their full-back. They've changed their goalkeeper. You know, I think Zubomendi's settling in.

58:17I think Arsenal, of all the transfers they did, most of their players have settled in really quickly yeah yeah absolutely Greg I've finished with a prediction from you it's been a while since I've asked who's going to win this game if I was to say anyone it would be it would be Arsenal I feel it could be I feel it could be cagey I think you know it's easy to think that Arsenal go out and think we're going to try and be the dominant force in this but Arteta's pretty kind of pretty cagey in these big games and he will know that that's happened in the past City are willing to try and exploit them in behind so I don't think he'll want to leave too many situations like that I think it could be quite cagey An early goal would be very good for the game And I'm interested to see who plays against Madiweki Because it's Nico O 'Reilly It could be Guardiol I think that's important He's in great form He was great in the Champions League again Like so direct I think that's an important part of the pitch The play that the Arsenal fan base didn't really want Yeah Amazing Yeah absolutely It all changes so quickly and it will change again, I'm sure, in time for next week.

59:21We'll leave it there. Martin Samuel, Gregor Robertson and Tony Cascarino, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back with an EFL show and then we'll be back with the regular show on Monday. We'll see you then.

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1:00:11This week on the Business Podcast, we have a new Prime Minister, Andy Burnham. There's already been a flood of mooted new policies with big consequences for business. The UK is very unique in the fact that we pay two forms of income tax. So let's see how brave they want to be. Join me, Hannah Previtt. And me, Dominic O 'Connell, for weekly conversations from the world of business and entrepreneurship. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts or find our channel on YouTube by searching Times Business.