Are Liverpool out of the title race? And why is this season so different?

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times. Arsenal 4 clear at the top of the table but below them the chaos continues. Another defeat for Liverpool as they fall seven points behind the leaders with Manchester City and Chelsea also losing. More impressive wins for Bournemouth, Sunderland, Manchester United and Brentford. We'll look at all of that and important victories down the bottom for Leeds and Burnley too. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd. The football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England including Chelsea is Pete Rutzler.

0:38And the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson. And it's here as usual, team. The chaotic season continues. I absolutely love it. It's absolutely brilliant. You don't know where to turn. Your fantasy football team is completely crap. It's absolutely fantastic. You cannot predict a single thing that is coming out of the Premier League at the minute. So I wanted to start with a question for all of you to help us structure this show. What was the most significant result of the weekend? I've listed a lot of teams there, wins, defeats. What was the most significant result at the weekend?

1:08I'll go round the table, Pete, starting with you. Burnley beating Wolves. Interesting. Very quickly, why? Because of what it means for both teams. Wolves win this in nine. It's a ridiculous record about the number of teams who've not won their first nine games in top flight. Bury in 1904 and Sunderland twice in 2015. Yeah, amazing start. I saw that one as well, yeah. But for Burnley, they've beaten Leeds, they've beaten Sunderland. They've got points off Leeds and obviously winning against Wolves, beating the teams around them. Tricky start, doing well. So, yeah, I think it's quite interesting how that's shaping the bottom three.

1:41Absolutely. Alison Rudd, most significant result of the weekend? Liverpool's defeat against Brentford, partly because it was an extra shock because Liverpool had looked in free-flowing form against Eintracht Frankfurt after a dodgy start and you thought, well, that's what they need to pick their season back up after three league defeats. But no, I was there, you sit quite close to the pitch at Brentford and you could feel their lack of self-belief, which was quite astonishing. Gregor, most significant result of the weekend for you? Can I go for three? Oh, shocker. Who saw that coming, listeners?

2:20Gregor Robertson wanting to not pick one solo answer. It's the promoted teams. I mean, they've now got 38 points between them, which is the third best haul in the Premier League era. Leeds winning against West Ham's opened up a seven-point gap over West Ham, nine point over Wolves. as Pete's just said that was a huge huge result for Burnley as well and it's just quite compacted at the top there's only I think like five points between second and tenth but at the bottom you're starting to see a bit of a gap open and that's more consequential Burnley having a five point gap that's pretty significant I mean if we're looking at I know the new promoted teams are more competitive this year than in recent seasons but that kind of gap when you start opening that up it's very very hard to bridge for those below it lots and lots of justifiable love justifiable love for the teams down the bottom.

3:05But you are all wrong, unfortunately. The most significant result of the weekend was Arsenal 1, Crystal Palace 0. I said in that intro, you cannot predict anything in the Premier League, but Arsenal, it seems like you can. So I tell you what, we've got love for teams down the bottom. Let's put them in the second half of the show. Let's give them their own space in the second half of the show. Because the idea that Alison Rudd was there to watch Liverpool, the champions, look completely bereft, out of confidence and defeated again feels like too remarkable an opportunity to open a game podcast with.

3:38Alison, tell us more. So you were saying that you could even tell from the press box at Brentford that this Liverpool team, this team of champions, this team of big, multi-million pound signings, what are you laughing at? You're just milking this. No, I'm not. Tee it up. Tee it up. I'm really not. I'm just stating facts, pure facts, as Rafa Benitez has once said. But it is, remarkable Alison that was your takeaway from this game that this team look like not like Premier League champions at all no they don't and it was everything absolutely everything from the away fans who were incredibly quiet I mean silent I mean that doesn't happen Liverpool fans were silent they tried to do a bit of singing at the start of the second half because Liverpool pulled a goal back and maybe but I don't think they really believed it I didn't believe it nobody in the press box believed it that it was going to be a better second half.

4:32So once they were behind, you were like, that's game done. Yep. Even with the results they've had early in the season, which were impressive and were as many people... Yeah, but they're on a roll of conceding early and not being able to get back into games. And this is obviously wearing them down. And it wasn't just that... It's not like a one-off, like a team like Brentford can bully you with the long throw and long balls. Brentford were partly that. so they had all that going for them their brilliance at the long throw which opened the scoring for them they were physically better than Liverpool you know the whole second ball problem they were brilliant at that but they were also better at football the Shardegal was a thing of absolute beauty the sort of thing a team that are defending the title should score so it wasn't just it wasn't just that oh it's a stumble because we've come up against a team are a bit different and of, you know, deliberately changing their style for us.

5:34No, no, no, that is not the narrative here. The narrative is they were outplayed by a team that were at the start of the game in the bottom half of the table. And Brentford's players were fearless, had as much belief as Liverpool players did not have, which is astonishing. I'm saying it out loud and it seems ridiculous that a team defending the title would have sort of emanating such negativity, but they weren't really very good in any department whatsoever. And actually then in the press conference, Arnest Lott, he looked smaller. Are you sure his chair wasn't lower or anything like that? No, he seemed a shrunken person.

6:19Well, that is an interesting aspect to this season, isn't it? Because last season he blazed into the Premier League, He took over from Jurgen Klopp the impossible job. This is really difficult. Barely made any signings and was fantastic. But now we're seeing a completely different challenge for him that we only saw in a few little glimpses, I think perhaps after a Merseyside derby when the decisions maybe didn't go his way. We are seeing the side of Arnie Slott under pressure now, aren't we? Well, I couldn't even tell. Honestly, I couldn't even tell if he was being sarcastic or serious when he was talking.

6:49And it was clear last season when he was having a bit of a laugh. He was excellent in press conferences last season. He was a delight. Very assured presence, isn't he? Always answer the questions. Handled the contract situations brilliantly last season. But so that's all gone. He was asked about the long ball because it was a bit of a cliche. You know, you go behind in the fifth minute to a long throw-in. I mean, anyway, and he said, oh, we've been practising. Oh, we've been practising. Well, hang on. Are you serious? Or are you joking? or are you so nervous that when you're facing Brentford that that's all you can think about is the long throw or are you being sarcastic?

7:28I don't know. Which is justifiable. Brentford scored eight Premier League goals from throw-in since the start of last season, more than twice as many as any other side. But just to stat on Liverpool, Gregor, that's something that you've been talking about. Since the start of May, Liverpool have conceded two plus goals in more Premier League games than any other side while they've conceded 14 goals in their nine Premier League games this season. they didn't concede 14 goals last season until match day 16 which I mean we've been talking about the defence but just picking up on some of the points Alison made about confidence and that feel of that once they went behind they were in trouble is that the defence?

8:02Is that the whole team? Is that a lack of belief that they can score the goals that maybe they were getting early in the season in games like against Newcastle? Probably all of that It's all on the table ladies and gentlemen Going behind early is obviously a killer for them but they look devoid of ideas really I mean the other thing I don't know whether Slott looks smaller or not but he was saying that opposition teams have a way of playing against us just now and we can't we can't kind of find a way to overcome that he said that as if it's like everyone's just got this one blueprint to beat Liverpool and I don't think that's true I think Brentford played different to Manchester United or to Palace or whatever the long balls thing is completely teams are just doing that now to Liverpool they face more long balls than any other team by quite a margin it's almost like Liverpool can't handle it but they had to spend a lot of last season trying to break down low blocks as well and they did it more successfully so are Liverpool easy to beat this season?

8:58they're just vulnerable certainly at the back we've seen that before but when we talk about the back and Canate I mean Canate's form has been really really poor we've talked about the full backs but it's the whole team I don't want to repeat what we've said before but the set up the way they're pressing you know if your teams are playing long ball it's going over the top then you've got to find other ways of making the game difficult for opponents and we're not seeing that from Liverpool and without taking it back to slot I think find slot what he's saying in these press conferences is interesting it's going from one topic to another it's the set pieces remember when I went to Istanbul before the Galatasaray game he talked about you know he doesn't like the fact that the set pieces are so prominent in the Premier League and you can get away with it a little bit more it just feels like there's always something else that's sort of been added to the mixing pot of what's causing this rather than one coherent narrative of what's going on and that only I think feeds this sense of unmoored crisis at the moment I just remember watching Liverpool last season and thinking for all the the narrative last season was that there's this kind of pivot towards more control swapping heavy metal for smooth jazz or whatever it was but then you watched them out of position you thought no they're still properly heavy metal in terms of their pressing in the way that they hound and harry opposition, you don't see that now I'm just not seeing that at the moment, you're not seeing any sort of real energy and sort of industry out of possession and you know, you used to be able to say okay Salah, you're kind of carrying him a bit in that regard but you just don't you don't see it anywhere, you don't see there's no coherence, there's no like, they're not hunting in packs, they're not effective out of possession and they're far too easy to play through.

10:38What did you make of that against Brentford, particularly their off-ball stuff because it's not like a lot of the players are still the same is it the coherence of how they're doing it? Is there a body language change as well? I mean I haven't seen Liverpool in the flesh so I'm curious to know. There was almost no pressing and there was no energy they looked exhausted, they looked more like the Liverpool you might expect to see towards the very end of a season that's been successful and they're a bit shattered, didn't feel like the start of a campaign, it felt like they were three quarters of the way through and had some injury problems and rotation problems and were just really trying to get over the line.

11:19It was completely out of kilter from what I was hoping to see. So what you had, you had two teams both playing 4-2, 3-1. And that is not a Brentford system. I mean, they did play against West Ham. Generally, they go five at the back, particularly if they're playing against a bigger team. so they weren't really used to playing that and yet they looked like they'd been playing it week in, week out got the balance sorted whereas Liverpool, you kind of thought how is this working? Florian Wurtz is not evidentially up to speed in the Premier League to be playing in that role so why is he playing in the three?

12:02Why? And the players that have shone so far this season Ekotike and Cody Gakbo and Sir Bozlai I would say Sir Bozlai came out with it with credit and that was that was a crazy comparison he was the only one who matched Brentford for physicality and energy I was just going to say it feels like the league league wide like the Premier League has turned the dial up on physicality this season and like how important it is to be like 100 % in terms of energy and industry and power and Liverpool don't look anywhere near as physically capable If they were all like Sposlai they'd be fine probably but he stands out too much it's kind of weird that one player stands out that much Van Dijk, Canate, these people are physically imposing players aren't they?

12:52Yeah but I'd actually say it's more at the top end of the pitch I mean Verts looks like a waif really a lot of the time I know he's not but he does and Salah we've spoken about already Kerk is as well I don't know he can run around a lot but again he's done at the back posters like he just doesn't look like he's really there were a lot of errors in this game wasn't there a lot of misplaced passes it feels like even just going back to it's just not looking and feeling the right way there's a lot of doubt you know across the team it's doubt about each other I mean there was talk this week I think Van Dijk mentioning they had their meeting but then to come out of that from having had a conversation obviously Frank Frankfurt aren't doing very well in the Bundesliga at the moment.

13:37But then to come into this game and have that result, turning that around, dispelling that doubt, when suddenly there were no... Last year it was just everyone, you could trust everyone in your team. But now there's so much uncertainty. There are players you don't know and the players that you were trusting last year, you're not sure if they're performing in the same way. And dispelling that is very, very difficult. I know City did it last year, but they did it with a big change in January with a lot of new faces around that suddenly changed the dynamic completely. Yeah. Liverpool have lost as many Premier League games this season already as they did in the entirety of the last campaign when they won the title and they've become just the fourth reigning Premier League champions to lose four consecutive games after Leicester in 2016-17 and Liverpool themselves in 2021 and Man City last season.

14:19You talk about City there, Pete, as well. We've made the Mick McCarthy, it can joke, quite a lot recently on the podcast but we talked in recent shows, is this a blip or is this a crisis? I'd ask the same question again just to wrap up the Liverpool section. is this now we're heading into a full season of transition where you're already starting to think that they're not going to compete for the title? Anyone prepared to go that far? I have my doubts that they can compete for the title. Just having breathed it and seen it so close up and thought, ouch. It doesn't look like it at the moment. I mean, it's not short time, is it?

14:58But just still, you still look at them and think They have so many top, top level players that it doesn't go on forever. It can't go on forever. And I don't know. I really, really had to work so hard not to do the Mick McCarthy then when you were saying that, Gregor. Sorry, go on, Pete. No, I was going to say, it's hard at the moment. I mean, it's hard anyway to sort of discount the quality that they have. But it's just the fact this isn't... I know we've got these recent results, five defeats in the league in a row. But it's not just that, though, is it? I mean, even the start of the season, they were like, oh, Liverpool, you know, getting results but not playing well.

15:34End of last season, that's a long stretch of time. I still expect they'll be up around, particularly in Champions League conversation, but the title, you know, you need that kind of consistency. I just think now we're at a point where the turn hasn't turned, you know, the turning point hasn't turned with Frankfurt. That's hard now to try and get everyone back on side, confidence-wise, but yeah, so I'd be surprised if they can... Brentford thoroughly deserve to win. Well, that was going to be my final question on this game, Alison. You've already mentioned how excellent they were. You talked about Arnie Slott in the press conference.

16:04Keith Andrews must have been in high spirits after this performance. He's had an excellent, excellent start to the season. After that first game, which Gregor, you were at, and there were lots of doubts around that because of a bad, damaging defeat, he's looking like a brilliant fit for replacing Thomas Frank, isn't he? Well, yes, and I had my doubts about that, and he is looking brilliant. So if you just sort of stack up the challenges for each manager going into this season. We're making it, these expensive, wonderful talents have ended up, integrating them has ended up being a problem for Arnie Slott.

16:36And yet you've got someone like Keith Andrews who's had to deal with massive overhaul at Brentford. And he's, you know, he's taken just a few games to get to grips with that, what's needed to deal with that. He's already proving himself to have tactical flexibility in how he sets up the team. And they're not afraid to play beautiful. I said to him, was this result the reward basically for fearlessness? And he said, yes. He said that a lot goes into preparing for a match. But yes, especially after Liverpool got a goal back at half-time. And wow, you know, a team that we thought would be in a relegation battle to have the confidence to come out against the reigning champions and play aggressive, physical, but also beautiful football.

17:18And the crowd were the best ever I've ever heard the Brentford crowd. They've got some chants going. they sound like a proper it's a very small stadium sometimes I think it's a shame because you don't get the noise sometimes a goal deserves that seems a bit muted but they were at it and on it Interesting high praise indeed as well for Keith Andrews there Gregor Chief Executive of Thomas Frank Fan Club she's moved on pretty quickly absolutely brilliant from Keith Andrews I should say as well long throws a feature Michael Coyote the Brentford player we interviewed him at the weekend I very much enjoyed this Joe Harston our young journalist asking him, what's the secret to a long throw-in?

17:54And he said, I just look for my teammate and throw it. Sometimes football's best when it's kept simple. As I say, struggles for Liverpool and Arsenal benefiting a 1-0 win against Crystal Palace. Just a few stats for you. Arsenal have scored 11 goals via set pieces in the Premier League this season, two more than any other side, and the highest ratio by a team in a single Premier League season. Since the start of the 2022-23 Premier League season, and Arsenal picked up 90 points in London derby games, 24 more than any other side. Just a very simple question on Arsenal. Is this their title to lose?

18:29Such an interesting framing, that. I was thinking about that on the way in. Thank you so much. But it's true. Now answer the question. They're clear favourites to win the league. They have an aura about them. So yes, it's their title to lose. It is, but it is, you know, they're a really good team. And it's not like the sense of, you're looking at them and we're just praising, oh, this team are fantastic. they're clearly leading the way it's theirs to lose someone's just setting the trap a little bit yeah that's there at the top that's the whole point they're literally the top of the pyramid you cannot get any higher you're there to be knocked off defensively they're phenomenal aren't they I mean looking at just Gabriel obviously there was a slight doubt about him coming in but just as a leader I think even that growth in him as a player yeah yeah I mean it reflects the strength that they've built at the back but also Arteta's work with him but just like even in this game you know there were quite a few moments where Palace as they do they get into some really good pockets of space to threaten Munoz on the overlap Adam Wartom switching the play but every time maybe Ismail Asar getting into the box looks like he's about to shoot there's Gabriel with a block so many blocks I mean the stat that came out during the game 250 minutes in the league before this they hadn't faced a shot on target yeah not just a shot on target I mean that's this is in very very impressive levels and then they've got Incapié make his debut I forgot they signed him They had the baseline I mean the goals from set plays Arteta's moved ahead of the curve With that I think he deserves praise For the way he set them up So they're 15th for goals from open play That's a good start as well I think Yeah but it's affecting game state Obviously the set pieces skew that Because you don't need to score from open play If you're scoring from set plays all the time So come on then come on Arsenal's title see it lose Gregor The answer is yes I mean for the same reason last season When you watched Liverpool and you thought who's really the team that's challenging them.

20:20You're looking around at everyone else and there's so many flaws. No one that looks like they're going to be consistent enough or string enough positive results together to really stay close to them. At the moment it looks like, yes, it's theirs to lose. I did have my doubts until I went to cover the Atletico Madrid game. And then I realised what they're doing, Arsenal, I've come a bit late to this, what they're doing is they're winning, the reason they'll probably win the title is because they're winning games the way they need to. So they're not scared. As in to fit their style? No, they take...

20:51What do you mean by need to? Well, you know, the obvious comparison is with slots saying, oh, you know, it's not fair, people play differently against Liverpool. Well, just accept it and deal with that. That's what Arteta's doing. So there are games where to not play terribly attractively and just win 1-0 or just rely on a set piece, that's fine because that's the way you win that game against that particular opposition. you could argue Crystal Palace were the more attractive team but that doesn't bother Arteta whereas against Atletico Madrid they were very solid yes but they were also pulsating and attractive and scoring goals and felt like they could score more than they did it was like we are capable of flair here but we're not scared either to suffocate the flair if we feel like we're just going to rely on our defensive prowess and get through it that way so there's a pragmatism and a determination determination to not care what people label a victory because I mean they can look quite boring they really can look quite boring pragmatism of different faces that's one of the great lines of the game podcast so far this season Arsenal fans scared or excited do get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk one of the reasons that we're saying that Arsenal are probably it's their title to lose is teams like Manchester City losing again this time against Aston Villa They've lost three of their opening nine Premier League games this season.

22:14The last time that happened at this stage of a campaign was 2008-9. So it just shows the struggles that Pep Guardiola is going through to get his team clicking. The team that's taking advantage of all these defeats for some of the bigger teams is Bournemouth, Gregor. You were there to see them win again. Again, another win 2-0 against Nottingham Forest. They're in second. Incredible. Absolutely remarkable. the tally of 18 points after 9 league matches is their most ever at this stage of a top flight season surpassing the 17 they picked up in 2018-19 under Eddie Howe amazing amazing start to the season for Mandoli or Iriola yeah I mean there's no team that starts as fast as Bournemouth and Iriola even admitted afterwards that they knew that Forrest had played on Thursday night probably quite an emotional game Deitch's first game first win in Europe for 30 years yada yada and they went for them and I swear they had two chances to score to go 1-0 up inside the first minute then Clivert had a chance then Croupier another chance they just they absolutely battered them for the first 10-15 minutes and then the goal the opening goal was remarkable it had a bit of slice of fortune scoring Tavernia scoring straight from the corner kick which you've done of course oh yeah thanks for reminding me I knew I knew that was my cue.

23:36You were looking at me going, go on, mention it. Go on, mention it. Go on, mention it. Yeah, that was against Mansfield too. Not going to say that. Yeah, and then Kruppi. He's like, the second goal kind of underlined why Bournemouth are sort of challenging the established order a bit. Because time and time again, they just hounded and harried Forrest in midfield, turned over possession and they were off. And this was another example. Tyler Adams robbed Elliot Anderson in midfield. Eli Anderson literally hauled him to the floor it was a foul but Sam Barrett the referee really smartly played an advantage and Kruppi took up took the mantle and just ran it at Murillo and Milenkovic and on court an absolute beauty and that's like his fourth goal in three games 19 he's like signed the signing from Lorient in February but he only actually joined up in the summer he's just the latest player that they've plucked from somewhere in fairness that's the club that Bill Foley the owner also Cones so they knew a lot about him but you know a 19 year old he's made a big step up last evening they were playing in League 2 in France they were promoted back to Ligue 1 so it's a big step up but he looks fearless and he just like looks like he's having a great time so yeah they just keep finding these players they keep being picked apart every summer and this summer no more than any other more so than any other sorry and they look better I said that to Riala at the end I said do you feel that this team actually looks better than last season?

25:07He said, we'll see if we get 57 points. Because last season they got 56. So there's a little quiet confidence there. I want to come back to Bournemouth in just a second, Gregor. But you have also now seen the first two games of Sean Dyche's reign at Nottingham Forest. The team we've discussed at length on recent shows. So as I say, I do want to come back to Bournemouth with the guys and ask Alison about her interview with Antoine Semenyo at the weekend as well. But just very quickly on Forest, do you see some immediate changes under Dyche? do you see changes that suggest that they can get out of this relegation scrap that they've ended up in?

25:37You definitely see immediate changes, you saw that on Thursday night you saw a return to something much more similar to Nuno's team and to last season players playing in more familiar positions, Elliot Anderson in a number 8 role in midfield Gibbs White, 10 as he played up front in a 5-2 or 5-2-3 or whatever it was in Ange's last game two centre-halves that are happy to defend in the box just more familiarity and that's what he said you were going to get I really enjoyed watching you guys last season this was your identity why not go back to that so he named the same team basically apart from Zinchenko who was injured they were just they just could not cope with Bournemouth's intensity and dynamism and they looked a bit leggy in fairness from Thursday and Deitch was fairly pragmatic afterwards he's like we looked a bit like after the Lord Mayor show you know we looked leggy and that is the opposite of what Bournemouth are and they're brilliant at what they do so you know I think we'll see Forrest picking up points sooner rather than later though Interesting but couldn't keep up with Bournemouth as I say Alison you interviewed probably the star of the Premier League season so far and Bournemouth star Antoine Semenu at the weekend tell us about it Wow it was at their new training ground the first time I'd seen it it's very swish and lovely So you kind of think, well, they were doing so well previously at a very tiny, tiny makeshift sort of training ground and now they've got a super-duper one.

27:08What can they achieve? And I told on Gregor, I said to Antoine that Gregor Ross on the game podcast said he thought you might run out of steam and so you wouldn't make the top four. And he gave me a very knowing look. Very knowing. I would say to your colleague, wait and see, because we've got strength and depth. absolutely throwing you under the table there no she got a good little name drop for the podcast yeah that's true totally fine what a team player eh happily made you look like an idiot you know actually being at this game you see have you changed your mind well A.R.I.ola was saying I've had to leave out leave like Aaron Smith out of the squad James Hill who's been who's played a part and I think every game like Ben Doak was I think of any minutes today and he's been brilliant in every game he's looking and you're looking at Ryan Christie's on the bench, David Brooks is on the bench, they look a bit deeper than they have in the squad.

28:02No. No one can keep up that pace. It's ridiculous. But it sounds like Semenya is confident that he can. He's confident. I mean, can they keep it up? Because very early, we've had so many hot takes already in this Premier League season, but they've started so, so well. I mean, can they be the Nottingham Forest of this season and can they do go one better than Forest did last season? I think of the best of the rest group, they are certainly the best positions. Gregor's mentioned it about depth. I mean, we've talked about before about injuries and Irreola's style and how that can creep up on them.

28:35They seem to cope with that last season okay in that winter period where they were struggling. They've got goals. Finding Kruppi is such a bonus for them in forward areas.

28:48Maybe. It's hard to commit so much. I mean, the way the table is at the moment, it's so hard to read anything. but the way they play Iriola's getting the most out of what's in front of him that depth is good so maybe final word on this to bring it back to what we were saying before is Kerkhez was managed beautifully by Iriola last season and he's not being managed as well this season is he? listen to that she's even bringing in her own digs about Liverpool this truly is a remarkable Premier League season I think it's absolutely right he was signed for a lot of money but just maybe he wasn't quite the finished article and what he needed was not to move to Anfield but to have another season under arguably the best coach in the Premier League at the moment That's the other thing to say I don't think there's a better ticket in the league at the moment I think just for the speed and dynamism, intensity all those things, I know they're cliche words but the truth, you sit there and you look at them and your eyes widen how much they suffocate the opposition from the very first whistle and if they get ahead then they kind of managed the game in the second half Two-Forest came out and they were they were better but they didn't really lay a glove on them Gibbs-White had one chance that Petrovic had to tip wide but it could have been three or four at the end there's one move where brilliant passing exchange of passes and Christie got eventually got laid in made a run in behind the back four into the penalty box and he tried to do this little flick that would have made it goal of the season to try and tee up I think it was Brooks but Brooks hadn't made the run and everyone was like and he kind of laughed himself but it would have been an absolute world they were just having fun so yeah I think they're the most exciting team as well to watch at the moment Bournemouth the best ticket in town and also bringing a lot of joy for the neutrals in the Premier League this season loads more still to come we're going to take a little break after the big news over the weekend about Sheffield Wednesday going into administration we'll be bringing you a bonus EFL extra show probably an extra extra we should have called that this week so make sure you check it out but as I say it's time for a break so time for a little quiz question Kyle Walker made his 397th Premier League start in the match for Burnley this weekend the joint most of any fullback in the competition history alongside who find out after the break

31:24Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Pete Rutzler, Gregor Robson and Alison Rudd with me. Listeners, no points on offer this week, not even for Gregor Robson, who couldn't think of the answer to this quiz question. Kyle Walker alongside Leighton Baines in terms of the most Premier League starts, 397 for both of them now. We're going to talk about Kyle Walker and his team at Burnley in just a second, but I wanted to bring in Manchester United. Manchester United winning Manchester United and Ruben Amorim a third win on the spin for Amorim winning three consecutive Premier League games for the first time in a single season since February 2024 a great performance you've got to say a good win there were lots of Manchester United fans that I was reading online saying you know Liverpool away yeah it's great great to beat them but actually we'll know if this is a little turning point if we can beat Brighton at home we had a few listeners get in touch to say the same I wanted to start with one player though Casemiro David a United fan get in touch with his has done in the last couple of weeks saying Tommy you need to praise Casemiro more because it has been a fascinating little narrative journey for him in his time at United he came in under Eric Ten Haag seen as the player that had kind of made them a proper team I think he scored the goals in the Carabao Cup win or at least one of them against Newcastle and then has faded away lots of people saying oh he's gone he sacked it off he can't be bothered and I thought the comments from Ruben Amarim at the weekend were really interesting I don't know whether you saw them that this is what he had to say.

32:50He said, Casemiro brings a lot of experience. He is an example for everyone. At the beginning of the season, he was behind all the midfielders, even Toby, as in Toby Collier. He fought, worked hard, and now he's back in the national team. He's so important for us. He pressed very high before dropping back. I'm really very happy for him. The other players should take Casemiro as an example. Football can change very quickly. You just have to work. If you do what's necessary, you will play. And I saw a stat from a fellow journalist on social media. United have only conceded three goals this season with Casemiro on the pitch none since the start of September when he was on the pitch of the 16 goals conceded in all comps he's been off the pitch for 13 of them including both of Brighton goals at the weekend when he'd been subbed off absolutely fascinating I thought what an interesting journey he's had at United and also to symbolise their upturn in form yeah I still find it amazing the way that Ruben Amherst manages to throw some kind of anger aid into a compliment he was behind he keeps you on your toes but he keeps you on your toes yeah okay but look it was a compliment and it's deserved he's looked like an important member of Manchester United's best line up now and they seem to have alighted on pretty much the best line up yeah I still think that Mbwemma and Cunha have been the most important players what they offer the fact that they were like square pegs and square holes they look like that's that's where they should be playing and those kind of little roles behind a centre forward and Ahmad too maybe as well playing the full back role now it'll be interesting to see how he fares against the best opposition in that position but they can be a bit more lopsided, Dallal can sit back in to be more of a left back position yeah this was a big performance, obviously they had a bit of a wobble after they went ahead and you saw I remember again kind of slumping with his head in his hands like oh my god we can't do this again but they look a threat now they look like they're creating far more good quality chances and I think in this game as well going 2-0 up we've had some games recently I think Alison were you at the Fulham game where they started really well and then ended up drawing 1-0 early in the season where they had a lot of chances in the first like 10 minutes or half chances at least and maybe hit the post they're scoring those chances now Gregor and getting their head early yeah I mean the goals were taken brilliantly Cunha's lovely kind of arc into the far corner and Mbwemo you see when shots go through a defender's leg sometimes you think that's lucky but that wasn't lucky he's kind of opened up the angle the defender's going to try and cover the goal and just swept it through his leg so yeah big it's really big it's been a long time since they've strung this number of performances and results together and confidence will rise and you know you could see the whole team sort of start to blossom a bit now is this also start maybe the season where no european football is going to be the benefit we're going to start seeing that now you've mentioned forest you know liverpool having that high of frankfurt and then back down again you know yeah i think that's i think mentioning casemiro i think that's a massive part of it as well i mean he's sort of one game a week casemiro right and that's that's really helping him at this stage of his career that's just good management really he's managing in the right way.

36:13I suppose when he's talking about midfield, he's talking about fitness because that's been the topic with him. And it's been important because that's still the area of the team that quite clearly they need to strengthen and quite clearly the depth isn't quite there when you take Casemiro out. I mean, I still don't know if that pivot really works between him and Bruno Fernandes. But for now, they're getting a tune out of it. And Casemiro, he was retired, wasn't he? I mean, some of the criticism was incredibly harsh. And also like, you know, get rid of him, get him off to Saudi I know he's done blah blah blah when it was more like you know he's playing in a very demanding system and we've talked about the system so much but it's the two central midfielders it's absolutely pivotal in the amount of ground they have to cover it's hard and for him to put himself in a position where he can be influential in this team I think that's that is impressive he's back in the Brazil team as well but yeah I think depth is the one thing you look at the bench and how they're able to change games there isn't really that there they seem to he's found the line up that seems to be working.

37:14It's a fragile thing, but it's there. Now it's just about trying to build on that, really. And as Gregor says, once you start building confidence, just feeling a bit better within yourself, around with your teammates, it can make a big difference. And you can tell a lot from the way they celebrate goals. Obviously, they've been under the cosh in terms of criticism, but there's good team spirit there. It hasn't got to them. It pains me to say it, but Brian Mbouma looks like he's been a United star for a couple of years already. He feels properly settled in and they are so lucky to have him. And I thought, I often don't like the analysis because it doesn't really exist on match today, but I thought Michael Carrick was excellent with pointing out that they're helping.

37:56The other players are helping the midfield now. They're recognising it's a weak pivot, as you say, and they are coming in and they're organised better rather than leaving them exposed. and I will hold my hands up and say I thought Casemiro didn't have another season in him but if he's getting the help and they're understanding what he can bring to the team it's about relationships and understanding isn't it football and they actually don't look like a team anymore that we're being laughed at Keeper's big as well just with relationships point He is big actually really big really tall Sorry, couldn't help that with the dad joke but that is important He's coming in and having some good game We don't know how good he will be but just to have a good start the confidence that breeds the defence You just used to always look at United and you'd see vast open spaces and now you don't you see some relationships building and they're compact out of position they also when they press high the back line are a bit more confident to step up and back that's kind of what Alison's saying there about the midfield need the support from behind them as well they need to be able to go and Amorim said that himself they need to jump that's the phrase he uses and I think De Ligt is actually growing in stature yeah big time he looks like a real leader at the back I think I mean it seems like a daft question almost really given the status of the season and all the things we've talked about but I mean a European qualification spot is up for grabs for this Manchester United side isn't it if they can keep that team fit that you talk about Pete anyone think that's too far away top six finish no it shouldn't be that should be the aim that should absolutely be the aim and particularly so when you talk about having no European football to end with so yeah that should be them yeah positive signs for Manchester United in sixth currently with 16 points one point behind Sunderland in fourth in the Champions League places an absolutely remarkable start to the season from Regis LeBlanc and his side Sunderland 17 points from their opening nine Premier League games is the best return by a promoted club at this stage since Hull City in 2008-9 I was speaking to a Sunderland fan Kenny over the weekend and I said, Ken, what's going on?

40:06What on earth is going on at your club? And he said, we've entered a parallel universe. And it's a lot of fun. I think the fans thought that as well, when the winner went in. Scoring another late winner, this time at Stamford Bridge. And it's also that thing of where, I mean, I checked in on this game at full time and I saw it and was like, oh, Sunderland have won again. Just not even like that, not even that surprised. But Pete, you were there. Tell us about this game. I mean, I guess, was 2-1 Sunderland a fair result for the game? Yeah, yeah, I think it was. I mean, you mentioned about the supporters, an amazing travelling support, fantastic volume.

40:42It sort of powered them through, particularly in the second half, where Chelsea were having all their laboured possession and they didn't really create very much, and that comes back to Sunderland. But considering the number of new faces, I think it was 15, 14, if you take out Mark Gui, who started for Chelsea, obviously went on loan and came back. To have that team spirit sort of reflect what you've got on the terraces so quickly. I found that incredibly impressive, the way that they were able to stay in the game. They clearly have full belief in what their coach, Labrie, is trying to instil in them.

41:12They're just very smart as well. I mean, there's two sides to this. There's things that go wrong with Chelsea, and I'll come to that. But just on Sunderland, set up and it changed the system for the first time, back five. Labrie spoke very eloquently about this. he's quite a what's he like in the press conference we've talked about Arnest Lott looking smaller yeah he's very composed very considered explains all the decisions he was making he's not like he's not very frantic on the touchline he's sort of a despairing coach you know as I think things go wrong it's like but it's never too big and he was you know the questions after the game are about you know best start for a newly promoted team in 17 years you know how far can he take I don't know 40 points we're 3 points away from half way but he broke down exactly what they did and it wasn't very complicated it was deny Chelsea space in central areas force them out wide and then we'll battle them out there and they were excellent I mean Ronaldo came back into the game into the team a left wing back he was sent off against Villa started a bit slowly against Pedro Neto and then just really came into the game really imposed himself Alejandro Garnaccio may have scored the opening goal but after that completely faded from the game because they were just getting on top of Chelsea in those areas.

42:29Chelsea created next to nothing. Second half, they're chasing the game, they're chasing the chance to win the game. They struggled and they're smart. The long throw, it's been a threat all season. Just very quickly on Chelsea, because I don't want to dwell too much on them because I think Sunderland are the story and we're going to bring in Burnley and Leeds as well. But Pete, Chelsea have dropped six points from winning positions in the Premier League home games this season, the most of any side. And I thought it was interesting stats saying Alejandro Ganache scored his first goal for Chelsea.

42:53They've had 10 different goal scorers in all competitions this term, which some people would go, oh, well, that's fantastic, but also maybe points to a constantly changing side that is missing Cole Palmer, perhaps. Yes, definitely. I mean, there are two key things for me about Chelsea. Facing a back five, when they're facing a low block, they have struggled. I think I'll stop to this since Maresca took charge. There's been seven games that they've faced teams that have sat in a five. They've won three of them. Two of those were Southampton, who were absolutely useless last season. It's clearly something teams are doing.

43:25because Tavadon obviously changed their system for this. The other thing is Chelsea have this ability to get themselves up for big games when the pressure is on. So we go back just a couple of weeks and Chelsea are on a bad run of form. They lose to Brighton. They have to beat Benfica. They do. They then go to face Liverpool. Need to beat Liverpool. They do. Go back to the Club World Cup final against PSG. No one really expects anything. They can beat them. But then when the pressure's off a bit, they've run a good run. This would have been their fifth win in a row. it's not the same intensity they drop off Do you feel that in the stands as well?

43:58Is that in the home fans as well? Yes there's almost a sort of sense that I mean Sunderland fans were fantastic at the weekend so they distorted the feeling in the ground but the way Chelsea play they particularly against teams that are happy to sit it's not always a fun watch Bit ponderous Yes I mean part of this is I mean you mentioned about the number of goal scorers they've had they really are seeming to struggle to find the right option centre forward I mean they coming into the gate this weekend only City had scored more goals than them so it's not like a crisis in that front but João Pedro's form has dropped off quite considerably since well not just Club World Cup but the early couple of weeks of the season he's not touching the ball in the box as much he's not having as many shots there was a sense that he's been leading the line without Liam De Lappe there he's been injured maybe he'll be better as the 10 completely anonymous and a part of that is why I mentioned Sunderland's game plan before it was deliberate they are lacking that spark I mean the wide areas haven't shone as much Pedro Neto's been pretty consistent probably their best performer we're just waiting to see Esteval obviously Esteval and Neto play on the same side so there's that issue Liam De Lapp's not far away there was a hope that Mark Gui would come in and change the dynamic hasn't really done that some questions for him yeah but the pressure thing playing when getting up for the Lord Med show great after the fact that's becoming an issue and it always comes back to it's a young squad I mean the thing with Sunderland was Granit Xhaka in the middle of the pitch Labrie said he was their coach on the pitch and you could see it the way he was leading that team What a good signing that looks like during the summer Gregor you wanted to jump in on Sunderland so take it away Yeah no I just think back to on Labrie I think back to the playoff final which I was at and he was asked Joe Belling was almost certain it was his final game Tommy Watson who scored the scored the winner was joining Brighton they were like you're losing big players you know it's going to be a big change and he kept using the word connections he kept coming back to saying it's not all about individuals and like this is just after you've just you know you're celebrating a champagne on you and stuff he's like it's not all about individuals it's about creating connections within the team and within the group and having people who you know are kind of good he didn't say this but like good substitutes as well people who know they can are waiting to sort of bide their time and then they're going to be involved and you've seen that and they signed 15 players in the summer and he's created he's managed to create a team that looked like they've got connections which is amazing isn't it when you think about Ipswich and other teams that have come up before and last season were saying oh they've promoted teams have still spent a lot of money they've spent the most in Europe or whatever the fact that he's done that after only a year in the first place is one of the we talk about Iriola and that is a brilliant job but the job he's done at Sunderland is remarkable extraordinary yeah yeah I mean you look at the team and there's only there's only try Hume from last season Chris Riggs sometimes starts but it's completely rip it up Ballard as well has come back into the team Isidore comes off the bench and things and things yeah but there's been games where there's been none or just try Hume just a couple Enzo Le Fay as well is often involved yeah but it's it's been an extraordinary job and you did actually look at it and think you know you wondered if they're changing that much you wonder whether the manager might be changed if it doesn't start well too they've obviously had huge ambition after being promoted they spent more money than I think even Forrest did when they were promoted in 2022 but he's managed to he's managed to create a team Yeah absolutely Leeds picking up a huge huge win on Friday night 2-1 against West Ham more struggles for them and Burnley 3-2 winners against Wolves as well so all these promoted sides picking up victories before we get into any deeper analysis Alison this is brilliant isn't it for a neutral and for the Premier League and for us journalists and things after the conversation and the narrative of the last two seasons of the gap is so big, it's such a challenge, coming up to the Premier League, it's a close shop.

47:55To see these three teams, particularly led by Sunderland, of course, but the other two as well, it's fantastic and refreshing, isn't it? Yeah, well, you kind of think, what's the point? If when you come up, you immediately go back down, what's the point? And what do you bring to the Premier League? And it sort of almost ruins the, may as well have a vacuum-packed division and have no relegation at all if they're going to make that little impact. when they come up. So it was very important, I think, that they not only... It's not just that they're... It's not even as if it's not gone in one step.

48:28It's moved up like eight steps. You'd have thought the next step would be the promoted teams might keep it going longer. Yeah, take the fight away from... Add a little bit of tension into March, maybe. But they're not doing that. There is an actual case to be made that all three promoted clubs will be nowhere near a relegation fight, which is astonishing. I think Leeds and Burnley will be touching. Well, that's why I wanted to ask you and Pete, you picked that out coming back to the very start of the show that the most significant results were Burnley and Leeds because Sunderland has been fantastic in that parallel universe that listener Kenny talked about.

49:04But Burnley and Leeds, if they hadn't won these games, we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we? So do you think there's still worries there for both those sides? I think it'll be touch and go for both those sides, yeah. the thing is Burnley look Burnley look really competitive even though they weren't getting results they've got back to back wins now they were competitive in a lot of games they conceded late goals even think back to the Man United game they were competitive in every single game and Scott Parker keeps coming out and saying this group have got something about them I've only been there since the start of the season before and they had that brilliant defensive record last season he thinks that they've got they've got what it takes to really compete Just on that, they've conceded more goals this season 17 than in the entire championship campaign.

49:52But I remember us talking about it on the Football League Extra show and you saying, look, it's a big jump up. And actually, I quite like the fact that they've already conceded more goals, but they're still getting points. And that maybe goes back to Parker's point about spirit and togetherness and a belief that they can still pick up points, as in this game where they go 2-0 up, peg back to 2-2, and then find a winner. Yeah, I mean, it could have been very different, definitely. Wolves were in the ascendancy in the second half and even after I think it was after they got what turned out to be the winner De Brafco made a brilliant save one of those that was like his hand stopped it on top of the ball on the line, that was a great save so yeah I think Burnley and Leeds are going to be in the battle, in the conversation but I think they look like they've got they look better than two of the teams in the leagues without a doubt already and they don't look like there's much between them and a few other teams as well like Fulham Well I was going to say, looking down the bottom you've got Wolves in their 20th place with just two points, then West Ham another disastrous defeat for them and Nuno Espirito Santo with four points then Forrest who Gregor we've already talked about then Fulham, who've just kind of snuck into that area down the bottom do we start getting worried about Fulham guys, Pete?

51:09I've got three big games coming up I think it's four defeats on the spin I think now they've had a few injuries but I think they've got Everton they've got Sunderland coming up yeah they need to pick up some points if they don't that's when you start getting into the spiral and that's the beauty of having the newly promoted teams do so well whereas last season it's fine could probably survive it a little bit yeah they've got Wolves on Saturday Fulham against Wolves then Everton and Sunderland so yeah three massive games there it was the biggest threat to the league if this had happened again and as in all three going straight right down yeah it was like an existential threat to the league I think it was serious because if it's a closed shop if there's 17 clubs who are basically established and promotion relegation is just like a foregone conclusion then you lose a huge part of what makes the league so compelling which is a relegation battle we've cited that before when you think back to Covid there was no need to start the league at the top because Liverpool were like 14 points clear the reason they restarted was because there was everything to play for at the bottom and I remember doing pieces down to the Championship stuff too where like every team that was in the bottom three before the restart got out of the relegation zone so like that kind of you know that jeopardy is one of the most thrilling and compelling parts of football and more so in the Premier League I was going to say it would be interesting to see if Fulham spend some money in the Jem 'er window because they are a lovely team to watch Fulham.

52:43I think they've got far too much quality to go down. How often have you heard that phrase? I think the problem is just on a week-by-week basis that competitiveness for places, being able to refresh radically in a game, that Silva can't do that. Basically, all he's got is Kevin off the bench. That's it. Yeah, very interesting times for Fulham. Just to finish then, just for a little bit of a laugh, you don't even have to name which teams or team but of the three promoted sides how many will be in the bottom three at the end of the season? None? One? Two? Or three? One. One? One. Gregor? Yeah I think one.

53:20One. None! I'm going for it! None! You can do it! I believe in all of you fans of Burnley Leeds Sunderland do get in touch with me if you have belief in your team's ability to survive tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk we'll leave it there. Alison Rudd, Pete Rutzler and Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me. Thank you two for listening. As I say We're bringing you an EFL Extra show special this week about Sheffield Wednesday. And we'll be back with the regular show on Thursday. See you then.