Arsenal hijack Eze deal; Newcastle’s Isak saga deepens

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1:16Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. The crazy summer of transfers continues with Eberichi Eze set to join Arsenal instead of Tottenham. Alexander Izak speaking about his frustrations at Newcastle and we're sure there's many more twists and turns to come. On today's show, we'll also discuss Everton's dismal defeat at Leeds and look ahead to a cracking weekend of action to come, including the clash between Crystal Palace and Nottingham Forest. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today, we have the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the former footballer turned columnist, Tony Cascarino, and the former footballer turned football writer, Grego Robertson.

1:53Here we are, team. Tony, nice to see you. To see you. Yeah, nice. Very good. You missed me, hadn't you, on holiday? You've just been giving me loads of abuse for not being here. No, you were late today for the podcast. I was, I was, and it was all on you. It was all me. I was the only one late, was I? Yeah, just me. You brought a couple of lads on for you. Oh, I see. We all stick together. Some of us have been here like small hours of the morning. But you'll be the first to have a gut players who don't turn up and training them. Players? What the hell? Okay, you would be. I would be. No, you would.

2:21You'd say, it's a joke. It's like that, is it? Honestly, it is. Honestly, you have one week off. One week off. There's been a coup. Anyway, let's get stuck into the transfers and we can talk about some players who, you know, maybe not acting appropriately. Tony, see if you can get angry at them instead of get angry at me. One player who definitely hasn't acted inappropriately, Ebereche Eze. But one club maybe not acting very professionally, Tottenham Hotspur. Arsenal expected to sign Eze for£60 million, Gary Jacob reporting on the Times website. after hijacking Tottenham's deal. Tottenham had agreed a transfer fee and personal terms for the Crystal Palace midfielder, but we believe an injury to Kai Havertz forced Arsenal to take him from under their rival's noses.

3:04Who wants to go first? Great for Arsenal? Terrible for Tottenham? Which way are we going to go? Do you want me to do the terrible for Tottenham? It's great for Arsenal. That goes without saying. It's terrible for Tottenham. Because, number one for Arsenal, this will be their fans' probably favourite transfer of the last 10 years. I mean, this beats anyone they've got in the last 10 years, you know, without a doubt, because there's nothing... Whether he does well or not. Whether he does well or not. Because it's not just about going to Arsenal, it's about stuff in Tottenham as well. But from Tottenham's point of view, this should have been so easily got over the line.

3:45The players got a£60 million release clause, which expired on the first day of the season. So whether that is last Saturday or whether it technically becomes the Friday now that they move one match forward to the Friday night, we split the difference. You know, it's£60 million, and that release clause is run all summer, as we understand it. At any stage, Tottenham could have bought that player. At any stage, they could have triggered that release clause, bought that player. The fact that Eze has agreed personal terms with Tottenham meant that he was not averse to going to Tottenham. And so for a long time this summer, they were the biggest game in town.

4:29And they could have done that at any stage they wanted. And they've waited and waited. And the suggestion is they want to pay£55 million. And so for the sake of£5 million, I know when you say things like that, people listening go, oh, gee,£5 million. Well, I wouldn't give you that, but, you know, So£5 million, it's not about what£5 million does to an individual's bank account. This is about£5 million of a company that measures its revenue in hundreds of millions of pounds, multiple hundreds of millions of pounds. And so the£5 million, they probably could have got back in bonuses if they'd have had Ezi in the Super Cup team and managed to get that match over the line rather than get beat.

5:13They could probably have got that back in, might have scored a penalty, might have won the game in 90 minutes, who knows? they probably could have got that back. It's two places in the Premier League table, for instance. And then for this, like, for the sake of this, you know, oh, drives a hard bargain, drives a hard bargain, and then Arsenal come in and gone, right, we need this, bang, there you go. That's how you get a transfer deal done. Because they've paid£60 million, plus potentially, we believe, some add-ons that might take it to£67 million. So they've done the old thing about blowing them out the water, the famous conversation that started the Premier League as we know it, the one where Alan Sugar says to Sky's owner, you're going to get beat, blow them out of the water.

5:58And that starts the explosion of television money into football. Yeah, which is, as you say, what Arsenal have done here. You make a point about the optics of this as well, isn't it? As well as missing out on a player, which to a rival, the optics in modern football is disastrous, isn't it? In this age of social media, now you say our rival fans cooing over things. I mean, it's a stinker for Tottenham, isn't it, Tom? Yeah, well, it's a stinker as well because it's just been done before, obviously, Palace played their first European game. So he can now play, obviously, Champions League football anyway.

6:34So this is nothing new. This has happened before where, you know, that last ditch. I mean, there's been stories of players in cars going to other teams and on the journey, they go, turn around. You've got to go back to so-and-so. Do you ever have that happen, Tim? Well, when I was at Millwall, Colin Duncan phoned me for us at Ipswich and I was going into the office at Millwall and said, I'm just going to speak. And I said to John Doherty, who was the manager at the time, I'm going to talk to Ipswich. And he went, no, you're not. You're going to stay here and you're going to sign for me. They locked you in the room.

7:04Well, he didn't go as far as that, but he made it clear that we're going to get this such a good proposal and that does happen. I mean, there's some people who want to get me out. I've had some wanting me to get out the door. a few managers driving you away from the ground. Look, the one thing I would say, there is an upside for Spurs on this. Isn't it? No, you've lost, obviously, a very important player but you can't rely on one target. No, but they went for Gibbs White, they didn't get that done obviously necessarily you say well that was down to Forest so Gibbs White and Izzy is the only two players in European football no man come on you'd expect Tottenham to get one out of Forest and you'd expect Tottenham to get one out of Crystal Palace if they wanted in the Champions League listen like Kudus is a good signing he's made a great start looking good but they've got a new manager they've got the Champions League they need to strengthen that squad you're telling me that you wouldn't absolutely love of course you'd want that target but don't tell me that you should only be on that you know they will definitely have all this that's easy to say to them because if you think about like Newcastle for example this summer too and how many Turks they've got up to and they're struggling to sign a player come on you really think that if Liverpool were in the same market for a player that Newcastle were going to be in for you really think that the player was going to choose Newcastle over Liverpool but you've just said it yourself you've just said yourself you were in that room and going Ipswich ringing you and the people in that room went no no we're going to make sure well, this is done now with the sufficient offer that makes it happen.

8:38I agree there's levels to teams and things, and, you know, Sesco picking Man United because it's Man United, et cetera, et cetera. It's also because they said there's a big bag of money and we're going to make it done now and et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, of course. If Tottenham had done this, Tony, surely if Tottenham had done this in July or June or whatever. Well, that's the point. That is a real valid point. Why have they gone back to doing their business late? And it's all of this brinkmanship with Daniel Levy, where he almost seems addicted to this, you know, the art of the deal type stewardship.

9:14And you think, well, do it early. Get your business done. I've never understood why there is this panic at the end of the transfer. I've never understood. Well, Havits' injury played a part as well. You know, Havits getting injured. Obviously, that isn't a coincidence. They thought they had the road to themselves. But why would you leave it to chance? Why would you leave that to chance? I don't know if there was something about the way the deals are structured. That's a big thing nowadays, as we know, because of PSR. It's like, how much do you have to pay up front and things like that? So there may have been other things at play.

9:48But fundamentally, you're right. The point stands is... One of the biggest supporters of the PSR was Daniel Levy, because he thinks it keeps other clubs out. And so, you know, there you go. But what a sign-in for Arsenal. Yes, exactly. The sign-in. And for the player as well. for Eze himself I'm very excited to see Eze play for Arsenal in the Champions League I mean we all know he's a quality player does he go straight into their team that's one interesting thing for me if you want to play a slightly different way and not have a more direct winger and that is someone who's a bit more cultured in the way he plays that position on the left which he does incredibly well they've had Martinelli who go round the side Madiwaki will go round I think he can do both well he can but I wouldn't say it's as dynamic as the other two but he is a much more cultured footballer technically and will add a lot more to Arsenal it's a good point though because Arsenal play you know Arsenal overload on the flanks he will have to play wider start wider that's where he's starting so it will be interesting but like he's intelligent he's like he's quick the game's easy for him you watch him he plays the game at his pace and he never gets into trouble technically he's just got all of it that you you know and I just look at him and think I've watched him last year once and I was at a game and I think the game's too easy for him he's plucking things out of the air and he's getting under control finding a pass once he started to score goals which was the end of last season because if you look at his record at the start of last season to Christmas he wasn't particularly great in front of goal if he got consistent and clinical now you're talking top level player and all the link up player are in the box you can just imagine him like flourishing in that in an Arsenal team when you're trying to break sounds little pass gives and goes I was saying this I've worked out Arsenal's tactic by the way they've got Eze on the pitch now Odegaard Saka they get it round the box they knock it round and round and round try and win a corner 1-0 that's their tactic isn't it all these technical players the only thing I'm not and Tony tipped them for the league last last week and you know I think I think he might he could well be right the only thing I'm not convinced by it is the centre forward it's a quite it's a strange thing I look at the rest of the team and I make Tony absolutely right they've got two in every single position You know, one guy gets injured, you trust the other fella coming in now.

12:06And the only thing I'm not sure of, and I looked at the game against Manchester United, I know it's the man's first game and people take time to attack. He was clearly off the pace. But I didn't, it's the only thing that I'm not quite sure of. But if he, you know, if he goes on fire, then that's... Then they've got a great team. They've got a great team. So many centre forwards who come in with a certain stature physically, if they haven't had the pre-season that's necessary, they can look a little bit ungainly a little bit awkward not quite up to speed with the pace of the game if he gets that and adds that to Arsenal then you have got a serious title contender there early days for Victor Gokerez of course but yeah I share your much scepticism Martin actually about him I wonder whether we might find a situation where Arsenal are playing without a striker having signed a striker spent all the season last season going sign a striker and then they're putting out a front line of like Eze, Saka you know Martinelli or something and be like winning anyway and be like oh, actually, I ain't got a bloke for 65 million quid on the bench.

13:04Anyway, very interesting. Just one point as well about Eberiche Eze signing for Arsenal as well. That would mean they've got Eze, Saka, Rice, White, Madueke, the place to go for English talent as well. Yeah, yeah. Having once been the team where all the foreign stars... Some big guys in there as well, by the way. Yes, very, very much so. You know, when Gregor's piece about Leeds last week, notwithstanding this, some big fellas at Arsenal now. That's a very, very tall physical team. We haven't touched on Tottenham. Well, I was going to come back to Tottenham. Sean. Just talk to a 10 million. What we've spoke about is them losing Eze.

13:38So you want to tell us why it's a positive? Go on, off you go. Well, because you've still got 60 odd million pounds to spend on an attacking midfielder. Who would you go and get? In a heartbeat, Harvey Elliott. Interesting. Played a 10 role. That's what they're looking for. Definitely not as good as ever at J.E. Do you know what I really like about him? never ever let Liverpool down when he was called upon. No, he didn't. Never ever looked out of place. And I thought, do you know what? Never managed to break into the first team. Now, is it? No, but have a look at your first team. I agree, I agree.

14:10But I'm saying this is the thing. We're talking about the optics. I'm saying, I'm finding a name out there. But, you know, you could look around the country and you can pick 10. Of course, Maldon Gibbs-White would have been an absolute brilliant addition to Spurs as well. Likewise, Eze. But there's enough players around Europe and in England as well. You know, of that type. I think Curtis Jones can do that role. He's that type as well. You know, would Liverpool sell someone like that? Tyler Dibbling, anyone? Yeah, Tyler Dibbling. But I think there's a massive gap there of not much experience at 19 to 22, 23.

14:41But that's my point with the Tottenham thing. I come back to this optics thing again, and I know I'm obsessed with optics and narrative and stuff, but we've just talked to Eze. Two of you have just said he walked straight into Arsenal's team. He's going to be a brilliant Arsenal player. The other thing is we're now saying that Tottenham don't have that. And I take your point about Harvey Elliott could be a clever signing for Tottenham. He ain't that. He wouldn't walk into Arsenal's team. No. So this is the level of the player that you've lost. And for the optics, the narrative, the whole season, any time Eberichi Eze does anything good for Arsenal, Tottenham is going to hurt Tottenham fans because they're going to be like, oh, God, Jesus.

15:18It hurts Tottenham anyway, doesn't it? It does hurt them. Because they've won something for the first time in 17 years. They're in the Champions League, which, let's be honest, few people were expecting. And so everyone's thinking, right, here they are. If you look at, say, the levels of dissatisfaction that there are and will be at West Ham, particularly if they get beat by Chelsea on Friday night, it is all to do with actually winning something and then failing to capitalise it, failing to build on it. And that's where the resentment will be at Tottenham. They will be thinking, we're a Champions League team now.

16:00We've just won a trophy more recently than Arsenal have won a trophy. How are we losing this player to Arsenal? And that will sting. That will sting. It doesn't have to wait for Isaiah to actually do something for Arsenal. That will sting straight from the outset. On Tottenham, you were there on Saturday at their win against Burnley. Thoughts on the Thomas Frank range starting? Positives for them? Well, the first 20 seconds of the game, there was three crosses that came into the box. And I was laughing. So that's why you like Tottenham. No, no, no, no. I get it. No, but there was a real urgency.

16:34Is there a coincidence of why Richarlison played the best game he's ever played in a Spurs shirt when managers come in with it, trying to implement a bit more direct? But they were still, Kudos was fantastic, by the way. But others in the team. Thanks, Tom. It was... Burnley were not bad. Right. But Tottenham always looked like they were going to be a bit... Had a bit more of an edge to them. Richarlison led the line well. Now he's got a nicer problem, Thomas Frank, of going, well, if he's not doing it, I can put Solanke in. And Solanke now knows that he's got to match up to what Richarlison's doing.

17:08The problem with Richarlison is how long does that last? Now, that's the job of the manager. Brandon Johnson played on the left instead of the right and looked good on the left. he looked more dangerous look Khrushchevsky's not valuable Tottenham are going to be a far better team this year clearly I was just going to say they had a positive positive start but the Super Cup game was still positive Eberhezzi would have made them better no doubt in that particularly given he could have played the role that Madison is not going to be able to play because he's injured but if you look like Brennan Johnson got like 16 goals or something last season Kouris will have made them better even I think Wilson Odebears France under 21 a lot of injuries last season I bet he's someone who could have more of a say this season Till, Richarlison they've got quite a few attacking options they've missed out on a player who could make them better they do need to add someone else Tone's right you've got to move on it's a modern football thing as well this sort of antagonism they won over of Arsenal of course but that's part of it and that's why I'm talking about it Tom you're talking about it like it's such a massive blow is it a biggest blow as losing Sal Campbell when they lost Sal Campbell to Arsenal?

18:18No, he was their player. Not far off, I don't think, in modern football. Okay. I would have said Sal Campbell with Tottenham's fans is the harshest one ever. Yeah, exactly. And not, you know, and just because it's not the harshest one ever doesn't make it not harsh. It's a different type of thing. I think it's more of an embarrassment that they've been involved in this deal, like you alluded to at the start, Martin, where you talked about why couldn't they have got this done? All summer. Earlier. And that's an absolute valid point. It's like failing to get Jadon Sancho or something like that where you go, you've had all summer.

18:52You've had all summer. You know, this is not a transfer. You know, Alexander Isaac out of Newcastle is a hard one because he's got three years left of his contract and Newcastle won£150 million. And they won't sell until they've got a replacement. And they won't sell until they've got a replacement and you've just bought their replacement. And everyone keeps nicking your replacement. So that's a hard one. I can understand how problematic that deal is to get done. I really can. And that's one of the reasons why I don't begrudge a lot of agents' salaries. In some of the bigger salaries, in some of the bigger deals, I find it very hard to go, well, this agent's done nothing.

19:35Because if you manage to get ISAC to Liverpool, wherever you do it, If you manage to get Isaac to Liverpool, you have done a good job for your client. Now, he might have burnt every single bridge he's got on Tyneside. Then again, he's probably not going back there. He's probably not going back there unless he's in the away dressing room. So that's not going to worry him too much. Sunday night after the Man United game, on that bus back, I can imagine calls were going into Crystal Palace, or the agent of Eze, straight after the Man United game. Knowing where Abetz was from Arsenal. I mean we can't prove it but I would imagine this has got to happen we've got to try and jump ahead of the curia yeah if they call his agent and they say right what will you get what gets him you know this seems quite a tailored bid doesn't it is he an Arsenal fan or has he got is he a soft spot for Arsenal he was there was he a kid yeah was he there as a kid but do you know I mean this seems quite a tailored bid it's like look if you bid the asking and then you put a few add-ons, you know, that's it.

20:47Clearly what's happened. Bottom line is we're very excited about seeing Eberichi in an Arsenal shirt this season. I would be more excited by the way and seeing him in a Crystal Palace shirt. Let me just put on, you know, I don't want every single player to go to the same five clubs. I really don't. What I would love is if Crystal Palace had sort of done the same thing as Nottingham Forest with Morgan Gibbs White and the next thing you do is Eze Sainz another three years at Crystal Palace because I think Crystal Palace if they'd kept that team together are potentially a top four team Well hold that thought because that was the subject of your excellent column on the Times website this week and I want to come back to that because they're playing each other but you did mention Alexander Izak we had more developments in this ongoing saga this week Izak himself putting out a statement which said the reality is that promises were made and the club has known my position for a long time to now act as if these issues are only emerging is misleading.

21:42When promises are broken and trust is lost, the relationship can't continue. So we're in strike territory now, aren't we really? With Alexander Izak at Newcastle. Fans obviously chanting against him at the Aston Villa game, which we discussed with Alison Rudd on Monday's show. Tony, Martin, I mean, we're in no going back territory, aren't we really? Even though Newcastle's stance remains that the player is not for sale and Liverpool's stance is that we're not paying any more for him. How do we see this actually panning out? Tony, you've got a wry grin on your face. Well, no, I don't. I don't see it panning out very well because I'm not sure that...

22:17I'm pretty positive that Zach is not going to turn his opinion around, is he, and go, well, maybe I've made a mistake here and, you know, I owe an apology to Newcastle Faithful. I'm on a three-year deal. I'm going to honour that. That's never been even mentioned. He's using this as the club of promisement. I mean, I was in the game 19 years and Gregor's I don't know how many Gregors did you do five minutes Gregor did you have anybody ever say to you like we'll let you go no well no one wanted him no but you know no one's ever I've never been in the position no this idea of a gentleman agreement a gentleman's agreement that you can go at the end of the season yeah never happened no I mean it might have happened with Alex Ferguson Cristiano Ronaldo but that's one of the greatest players ever that give me one you're more year and a manager could turn around and say, but I'm not sure that conversation would have gone with Eddie Howe.

23:12Give me one more year. Give me one more. That never would have happened. And if it's someone with on the board or a member of the hierarchy at Newcastle, that shouldn't be their place to say that to a player. That's Eddie Howe. It's down to him if he's going to say, look, whatever I do, I'll prepare to let you go if you give me one more year and in that year I can find a replacement. Is there any... And the fee's right and it suits the club. All the things that you put... Is there any sympathy for Izak in having now broken his silence and all that kind of stuff? Is there a point of where you go, just don't say anything, lads?

23:46You know, we're just talking about Eze. We kept playing. There was a little jokey comment yesterday to Sky Sports cameras when they were talking about him in the back, give it a rest with a little grin and stuff. But, you know, he's kept playing for Palace and he's going to go to another club. And I imagine some Palace fans, as much as I'll be sad to see him go, will be like, I know one Palace fan who's like, oh, you know, I like seeing when our players go and prove... Ideally, you'd want to leave any club in a way that you can go back there, you can shake everyone's hand, you can look everyone in the eye.

24:17Sometimes, you know, you can't always leave on good terms. It's not possible. Sometimes the other lot are a little bit childish about it. But if you can, try to leave on good terms because you're doing nothing wrong. You know, it's your career. You've only got one. But they can leave when they want. Well, no, everyone's got a contract. Everyone's got a notice period. I mean, most people in most walks of life can't be prevented from advancing their career. Well, they can be made to see out a contract. Most firms, most new firms want you to leave. I think one of my lads had a six-month notice period and stuff like that.

24:56And the trick is to try to find a way that that happens. But if you've got to work your notice, you've got to work your notice. Now that's three months as opposed to three years but he's not getting 150 grand a week I just have sympathy for the well I just don't like the notion that you know some people there's this kind of idea now that Liverpool should re-evaluate because it's like he's revealed his true character that's nonsense like overwhelmingly the people who are treated badly are players right like or who are you know go on keep going I'm not sure a lot listeners agree I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking how many players are thrown in the scrap heap how many players a change of manager a change of system I mean you think thinking back the other days like Kieran Tierney joined Celtic he was an absolute star for Arsenal and he changed their shape and he was done like that in the click of a finger done and that's just one random example of a dumb head but this is Chelsea I can't I will struggle ever to give Chelsea credit for the success that is in the pipeline because of one reason their complete disregard for like the human element of squad and team building like the number of players that they sign as just an asset and like will never play never intend to play we'll turn them off on loan we'll farm them we'll do it yeah they've made a profit on them yeah absolutely like he's played like seven games or something like this footballer overwhelmingly there's this idea that the power is shifting it's shifting in an infinitesimal number of superstars they're now in a position where they can say no like I'm not playing for you again maybe people did make a promise Giochrez does anyone actually it's forgotten already that he went on strike at Lisbon Arsenal fans don't care about that like Liverpool fans will not care Newcastle fans despite all of this I guarantee you would not care if Isak said listen it all went too far I need to get back to playing football and he scored goals boom they'd be singing his name again I guarantee it so like let's not let's just not like I don't like this whole social media thing also like clearly it takes quite a lot of balls to be the guy who who says I'm not playing for you again like and you know there are some things I understand why fans of their clubs would not like it but let's just remember like where the power really lies and it's not with the players the only thing I'd say Gregor is that because the clubs act that way don't mean you as an individual have to act in a similar manner it does if you're 25 and you've got one chance of making a dream move and furthering your career.

27:33I wouldn't do that. I would never ever decide to go on strike because that's ultimately what he's done. I don't care what the club's acting like. Chelsea, if you have a choice as a player, if you're a really good player and Chelsea come in for you, you can turn around and go, I'm not signing for them. You do have a choice. Most players who go to Chelsea have a choice. When Caicedo went to Chelsea, he had a number of clubs that could have took him. Yeah, he went on strike too. No, but I'm saying if he felt badly about going to Chelsea there was loads yeah but there's also that also works both ways too Tony exactly no no it's the game if you say I'm not going to that club the club will go well you're in the scrap heap then you have to go they force you out I was told when I went to Aston Villa I was told by Millwall I had to go because they needed the money and they said we're not going to play you and I went well you can do what you like but I'm only going to go so it's me but I didn't go and strike I didn't say like if they did you know I wasn't a player going to ever consider that the whole idea of strike too is like it's too much it's too much it's a line in the same there like it works both ways Eddie Howe said he clearly can't be part of the group now because we've had issues when the transit window closes they'll sit down if he's still there they'll sit down and he won't be on strike for long so let's not go too far overboard the other thing we're talking about lots of different sides from the Newcastle side there's the simple thing of they don't have they've only got one striker it's Alexander Izak They've not signed a replacement.

28:58I mean, that's a simple fact of this story, isn't it, Martin? If you're Newcastle, until you sign Johan Wisser and another player, as we believe. Johan Wisser has gone on strike. Yes, but yeah. Who might probably end up at Tottenham by the end of this episode. But that's Newcastle's position is correct, right? We can't sell. Yeah, you can argue a lot of things about Newcastle this summer. you can, without doubt, make an argument that Isak has treated them very badly because they've done nothing wrong by Isak, really. He wasn't this player when he went to Newcastle. No doubt about that. Eddie Howe has improved him as a player.

29:37Eddie Howe has made him one of the best strikers in Europe. Equally, you can look at Newcastle's transfer business and say this isn't really the smartest move, that they've been working in a market that wasn't the best market for them. It wasn't the market that produced ESAC because they weren't fighting off Liverpool or Manchester United or Chelsea or whatever for ESAC. They'd identified this player and they were number one in the field. All of their midfielders were players that were bought for them. Smart. Smart. But there's got to be a point where they're trying to step into that. Of course, there's always got to be a point.

30:25I touched on it in a column earlier this week, where you're looking up. What I've heard said by various people that are within the world of agents and business and directors of football or whatever, is that someone at Newcastle should have known that all of their targets, they weren't going to... They weren't going to get over the line because Sesco was going to have options that would be seen as better than Newcastle. Certainly wage options that would be better than Newcastle as well. Jao Pedro as well. Jao Pedro as well, Eketike. All of them would have options that would be able to beat Newcastle.

31:12It's a difficult thing. People, it's a strange thing with Newcastle. and, you know, this is not meant to be, you know, because I've heard you, oh, no one wants to live in Newcastle. I don't think that's true. Newcastle is a beautiful part of the world. The North East is a lovely part of the world, actually. But Newcastle haven't got the reputation of the other clubs. We can argue about Saudi Arabia's money and stuff, but obviously P &S thwarts the influence of that. And the problem they've got is they're sort of Schalke. you know go to Germany people will tell you what a big club Schalke is they come out of the mines they go straight to Schalke Gelsenkirchen massive stadium or whatever you move outside Germany there's a monkey's about Schalke they've never really been anything at all in our imagination you know and Newcastle are like that because they've not really had European success because they haven't really had this wider profile around Europe, they're a much harder sell.

32:15They feel it's a massively old, traditional, brilliantly supported and, through history, successful club that is not perceived like that outside this country because... Where were they? Where were they in the Champions League? See, not everybody's Alan Shearer, are they? Yeah. You can get Alan Shearer done. Oh, you can get Alan Shearer, absolutely. You can get Alan Shearer, but you're not... I mean, to be fair, in years gone by, they got David Ginola when he was a big player at PSG. But that's really a one-off. Kevin Keegan, the manager? Yeah. Kevin Keegan, European Cup winner with Hamburg, the manager.

32:51But it's tough getting players, as Martin's saying, to go to that football club. They were in the wrong market competing against the very biggest clubs. That was the problem that they had. Do you think Isaac is at the end of the transfer window a Liverpool or a Newcastle player? Go on. Dare you. there's a part I hope he's a Newcastle player because I hope Newcastle did get heels in I think he might be because Newcastle have got a lot to do to sign two players and agree on a fee with Liverpool which which probably Liverpool don't want to pay see they would have beaten Villa at the weekend if Isaac was there and like he can be if he'd have got Ilanga's chance he scores he scores he scores you know and so Eddie Aar's already looking at it time the other two have had a prediction where is he at the end of the window I think it was a prediction it was a hope I've really fudged that one it was a hope of course as a Liverpool fan I'd love to see him at the club but in football terms I'd like to see him stay at Newcastle I'd like to see him stay there absolutely fascinating we'll see where the Alexander Isaac saga goes next make sure you're following all the latest updates on the Times website there's still loads more to come but we're going to take a little break so Martin Samuel over to you and once again And ladies and gentlemen, name that tune.

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36:29Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Tony Cascarino, Gregor Robertson and our kazoo-playing maestro, Martin Samuel. Thank you very much. With me and proof, ladies and gentlemen, that it doesn't matter what quiz it is, whether it's a football quiz or a kazoo-related music quiz, Gregor Robertson loves a bloody quiz. The answer, Gregor, was... Can't touch this. Can't touch this. MC Hammer. I would have accepted Super Freak by Rick James as well, which is the sample of it. But if you want to hear what it should really sound like... Anyway. There we go.

37:06There we go. Excellent. What a wonderful new feature for the season. I'm sure this is going to make sure... Remember, we are award-nominated now. The British Podcast Awards. If you're thinking whether or not to award us that award in the British Podcast Awards, we've now added a kazoo. Because we're groundbreaking. We've added a kazoo. This is groundbreaking. We've added a kazoo to the top-notch football debate, of which there was plenty in that first half of the show. And let's continue that with a look back at Monday night's game. Gregor, we did all nine games from the weekend on Monday's show before Leeds hosted Everton.

37:37We talked up Sunderland's chances. We said, is the close shop broken? They're not going to play West Ham every week, mate. That's the only thing I'd say about Sunderland. Yes, well, yeah, absolutely. They might have caught a break there. But Leeds getting a win, and a deserved win, before we get into penalty decisions and things like that. Leeds deserving the win, Greg. Yeah, definitely. Quite a lot of people were down on Leeds afterwards. I still get what the landscape looks like for them. And probably they need some more firepower, like someone to finish off the chances and the dominance and all that.

38:08But I thought they looked really, really good. They moved the ball around well. They had some opens in the first half. I thought Goodman's in the left back looked really, really promising. A proper left back. Not many then these days. as I keep buying on about he loves a left back big stack as well classic good feet for a big guy sort of cliche you know moves around really well Tanaka I think you know we welcome him a lot from the championship love him but he came from Bundesliga 2 the season before so it's a step up for him but he was absolutely you know roared off when he came off with like what looked like cramp and like the 80 odd minute yeah I think I think Leeds look good and I think their signings and their profile of it like there's logic to it and you know I they do need some more attacking options and Farks made that very clear and Dominic Calvert-Lewin if he can keep him fit will help I think it was a big if obviously I think they still need a few more but yeah promising very promising start Thoughts on that Calvert-Lewin signing Tony for Leeds a good fit in my opinion Well look it's all about whether you play football enough you know Calvert-Lewin's had not one season of injury being plagued season in season out if you take the last three years his game ratio is really low do I think he's a talented football I think he's what he's one of the best headers of the ball in the Premier League as a centre forward he's got an amazing leap when I went along to Brighton and Gregor was there with us I went to do a piece on Calvary Lewis 12 minutes he's coming off injured and I looked at Gregor and I said well that's me snooker good plan physically if you look at me he looks like he's been in the gym too much and now I get that too much no because that's what you used to say to your manager no you could end up being a gym freak some of these players end up getting just too upper body strong and they then get another injury after another one and he looked like that.

39:49That's one of the things I sort of thought, I'm not sure how many games Calvert-Loon is going to play for you. If he's fit and he can keep away from that gym a little bit more often and not having them niggles, of course he'd be afraid for them. And they play fast football. One thing was for sure, they're going to get it in danger areas a lot. That will fit him. So it's all about whether he plays games, Tom. I can't see any other answer to that. But a positive start for Leeds. Just very quickly, obviously, I think partly, Gregor, you said everyone was down on Leeds. I didn't necessarily think they were down on Leeds.

40:20It was more that the narrative, my favourite word, became all about the penalty decision, of course. That's the only way they got the victory. For all the dominance, they didn't actually score a goal from open play. And it was a controversial penalty. And various mates in WhatsApp groups and things debating it. And one of them said, and I quote, if Gregor Robertson says it's handball, I'll accept it. So, Gregor. You're mates right, it's handball. It's handball. You think it's handball? I do. I thought it was a bit hard. It's split down the middle. this is just like you know another example of why VAR will never work yeah because it's a matter of opinion let's not move on to VAR no but it's a matter of opinion it's a matter of opinion that's what it is he leans into the ball I think that's where the issue for me he's instinct and like although it's quite far it's not one of these close proximity ones he struck the ball hard it's not going to have taken a long time to get there it's his instinct to do it I understand all of that but when you do it it doesn't matter that you're arm right by your side you've leaned in to try and block the ball like it would have been very hard for him instinctively to not do that I totally understand that but it doesn't matter he did it and he leaned in and it blocked a shot towards goal so just to check you're saying in the laws of the game it's handball or even if like in your playing days if you'd have done that you'd have been like oh god that's stupid that's handball or is it in the context of today's rules that it's so are you like it's a penalty but game's gone or are you like no no it's handball I take the point about is you know reading out the law that says if your hand's beside you your arms behind your body then it's you know he moved his body towards yeah towards the ball like and kept his arm beside him intentionally but still moving moving his body towards it and his arm is blocked you can't move your body without moving your arm though isn't it indeed this is where we are but before all of that that law nonsense the handball law nonsense I would have thought this was a handball right that was the key thing I was saying to you a good win for Leeds but Martin a worrying start for Everton as much as this season and they're coming into this first game at their new stadium this weekend but not a great performance Jack Grealish on the bench as well I was just looking I was reminded of you know Johnny was here he'd be furious in his defence of David Moyes but I just remember watching Kudus when he was clearly West Ham's best player take about two months to get in the West Ham's team and you'd watch him come on or you'd watch him start in these European games, you'd be sitting there going, why isn't he playing?

42:49Why isn't he playing? He's clearly our best player. It took him about two months. This is a modern thing, isn't it? Everyone's football is apparently so sophisticated that when you sign a player, it's going to take him a month before he can be used to the fantastic sophistication of whatever football we're meant to be watching. Look, if Grealish isn't actually match fit, that's something totally different. But, I don't know, if you've got Jack Grealish, get him on, try and have a go. But when you're saying about Everton, I think there'll be a lot of teams very worried by that result the other night.

43:25I thought I would call him. Because if you look at it, everyone's got away with it last season. Let's be honest, everyone's got away with it last season. Sorry, you're coming back to the point we discussed on Monday about this closed shop and the teams coming up? Everyone got away with it last year. Everyone could have the cigars out all year going right. Because of the bottom front. Because these three are gone and we all knew it by November, December time. By default, really, wouldn't it? Yeah, so you could be rubbish last year. Are the promoter teams looking better? I know it's only one game, listeners, but are they looking better?

43:57Or is it that, you know, you joked a bit in the first half of the show, West Ham, Everton, Brentford, is it that they're worse? There's that, that if they didn't think they had to improve on last season, teams like West Ham, if they didn't think they had to improve, that was complacency on a ridiculous scale. But the other thing is that two of the three teams have got vociferous home support, fantastic atmosphere, difficult place to go to. I know it didn't stop either of them going down in the past, But, you know, they're big places to go to. And we haven't seen Burnley at home yet, by the way.

44:36You know, we saw them get well beat at Tottenham. But we haven't seen Burnley at home yet. They're home to Sunderland this weekend, which is already a huge match. Yeah, so you look at that and say, right, well, let's see what Burnley look like when they're at home. But you've certainly got two of those three clubs that have got, you know, fortresses, but they've got grounds that unless you are prepared to put it up to them, and West Ham weren't in the second half last week. They did in the first half, in the second half. Once Sunderland got in front, West Ham didn't do a thing. Unless you're prepared to put it up to them, you'll get beat up.

45:09Is that true? Because I mentioned it as a cliche, Gregor, when we're talking about Sunderland, the kind of fortress and all that stuff. I'm very conscious of not saying it as a genuine thing, but going up north and it's a bit loud and scary. Is that true? as players do you genuinely like go to get grounds and go where the atmosphere and the ground and the opposition fans can genuinely make you off your game well I played at Leeds and Sunderland and Leeds was very intimidating you knew straight away when you was you know from the moment you're doing your warm up to the game's time those northern lads are alright yeah no but in a good way a good way Sunderland as well you know great support one thing that they've done as Greg had done a column on Leeds United is Leeds and Sunderland have gone unbelievably aggressive in the transfer market.

46:00You know, look at what they've done Sunderland in the transfer market for a team that would never good enough to be in the Premier League. They got through by hook or by crook to beat Sheffield United and Coventry but they've gone up to the Premier League. The manager knows they need a lot more to have any chance and they've gone really aggressive after a number of players and a lot of players we wouldn't even have heard of. You know, were relatively unknown to most supporters. And they're obviously getting their recruitment right because what we saw is both Leeds and Sunderland had incredible energy in their team.

46:32You know, Burnley weren't bad at Spurs. They were okay. But Burnley have a much bigger problem. You know, Turf Moor isn't really a, you know, funny enough, it used to be the Stoke on a Tuesday night in the 80s going to Burnley. But it feels like they're behind the eight ball because they've lost Trafford. They've lost Egan Riley. they haven't got quite the same budgets as what Leeds and Sunderland have already done yeah just on the stadium thing I think for the very best players it doesn't make a difference yeah I think it could be one or two percent for like the games that they think they might have a chance of winning I do think that because Leeds in particular is like it's like one of the most I don't want to say the word aggressive but it's close it's like you know there's like an aggression from the stands there They actually thrive on that.

47:22When Gary Neville put it above Liverpool, that little slip he made the other night where it shows you the Leeds fans and it came back to Gary and the student, and they're obviously talking or whatever, and you just heard him say, I wouldn't get in the middle of that, I'm telling you now. And, you know, that's fair enough, and he absolutely owned up to it straight away, which I thought was quite good as well. He didn't pretend that he hadn't said it. but if Gary Neville found Ellen Mood intimidating and if you know and by the sounds of it he did you know he was brave at Anfield I mean you know you saw Gary Neville play at Anfield he never messed about you know he wasn't a shrinking violet No you reference the old firm as well so he's a big like hostile place this is one of them Sunderland Sunderland's Sunderland's a great place to play it works both ways you know them you talk about cliches what's the conversation before you go out you're trying to get a certain stage of the game where the fans might turn on their own team as well quiet the fans down yeah you know quiet them down then try and get something in the game I remember being at all of them grounds and thinking I loved it as well being in that sort of atmosphere but the moment they turned I've been in that you know you've won yeah yeah you feel like you've got a real hell of a chance to get a result you're going to have to keep them up there's not going to be enough to keep either of them up I said that's like you still think they're going down maybe one or two percent no I'm saying they need to get a lot more yeah they need to do something on the field the fans can't keep you up what did Sunderland do how many was it about nine came in Sunderland nine players came in was it seven on debut yeah seven on debut although the three who scored were there last season yeah which is great lovely touch yeah we're very excited about Burnley Sunderland this weekend we're talking about teams that came up to the Premier League and spent a lot of money.

49:16Let's finish with a chat about Nottingham Forest because they're a good example of doing that. They play Crystal Palace at the weekend. Palace, of course, playing in the Conference League tonight. We're recording this show on Thursday. Greg, are you going to be there? Excited? I am. Think they'll get a result? I think they'll get a result, yeah. I think it'll probably be a pretty spicy atmosphere because they're not fans of UEFA and I think it'll be even spicier on Sunday because they're not fans of Nottingham Forest or their owner. And you're going to that game as well? Or the Premier League.

49:41They don't like anyone, really. Yeah, absolutely. It's really hard to work out who they are fans of, apart from Crystal Palace. Yeah, well, make sure you're reading Gregor Robertson's match report on the Times website. Martin, this was the subject of your column this week on the Times website, the headline of which was, This might sting, but Crystal Palace might need to be a bit more like Evangelos Maranakis. Yeah. Explain a bit more why. Well, it's only the way that he has fought for Nottingham Forest and the way that he came up. And I'm not saying everything the man has done is admirable. Far from it.

50:14but he's very elbows out for Nottingham Forest and you don't see too many chairmen. I mean, Gregor was saying that at the weekend they were singing his name. You don't get too many chairmen get their names sung. Any, I'm trying to think of Roman at Chelsea. Roman at Chelsea, but funnily enough, the comparison will be Ken Bates at Chelsea because you would think with Maranacis some of the controversies, the time when he went on the pitch, at the time when he was accused of spitting in the vicinity of one of the officials. You might get some Forrest fans saying, oh, this reflects badly on our club.

50:53You know, the Mark Klatenberg appointment and all of that sort of stuff. Oh, this reflects. But you don't. They love him. They absolutely love him. And Ken was very similar at Chelsea. He was watching him. Trying to electrocute the fans at one stage, and they still loved him. because he was very elbows out for Chelsea. And that's all the fans want. They want someone that they think is like them and, you know. And you look at Maranakis this season, this summer, and keeping Gibbs White was a huge thing to do. And by the looks of it, at some stage, he has just gone, well, we'll match with, you know, because the man signed a contract as well.

51:40It's not just that he decided to stay. He signed a three-year contract. This isn't the promise one more season. Yeah, absolutely. He signed a three-year contract. So you do wonder if at once Maranacos is going, we'll pay what Tottenham are paying. Magic, he's essential to us. And it's that sort of thing. And it was just a wish because you look at Crystal Palace and this one is now going through the Eze one. You think it's quite possible that the Gwehi one will go through maybe to Liverpool or whatever and you just think I don't know that wouldn't it have been great if Palace could have won the FA Cup won the Community Shield but let's just go from the FA Cup won the FA Cup kept all of their players you know got their elbows out a little bit and gone right we're going to actually worry a few next season because they could have I'm certain they could have worried a few this season What do we think Maranakis would how do you think he'd deal with Alexander Izak?

52:42well yeah that would be that's an interesting interesting conversation Alexander his ex-agent would be an interesting loan deal for owners Newcastle would be like Evangelos can you come in have a word can you come in just coming back to Martin's point do we agree with Martin Tony and Gregor about that idea of what Palace could be if you know the elbows out expression that Martin's using if they'd done that do you agree yeah I think Glazer's great and I think they did have some really talented players and obviously before that I lost to Lise the summer before but I just think the reality of football is that as he's 27 he's got two of the biggest clubs in London and in Europe both coveting him he's got a release clause there's also an aspect of football sometimes too when you're at a club that's overachieved or done something great like winning the first trophy like making it Europe it's like probably that's as good as it's going to get so it's time for us you know we can look at Pastures New York and they admit they were selling clubs they admit it it's not plus there's also the complications about Palace's ownership structure and then I'm just you know things are moving on Woody Johnson the new guy it's always been the way in football that the smaller clubs and the mid-table clubs mid-range clubs you know will be picked on by the elite and they'll take their best players but what I liked about Maranakis from the very start is he didn't come up with any sort of inferiority complex for Forrest.

54:16He sort of came up with, we don't respect anybody, we're as good as anybody else, here we go. And I know he sold Brennan Johnson, but he sold Brennan Johnson under sufferance at the latest point he could do, ended up getting ducked points because they didn't make the PSR sums head up and all of this sort of stuff. He came up from the very start with this attitude of we're Nottingham Forest and we're as good as anybody and I just think that's been great for them just to say the song we didn't say this earlier the song myself and another colleague in the press watch couldn't work out whether the fans were singing he signs who he wants or buys who he wants something like that or does what he wants yeah yeah yeah he does he buys who he wants he does he buys he buys we couldn't work out either one it's like and he was at the same time we looked down and you've seen his seat in the chairman's box he's got this big reclining seat with a huge telly in front of it he had his hands fingers into a lock behind his head leaning back in the chair just like yeah this is I own all of this and that's been an approach to I would probably say life like he's just got what he wants because he's a billionaire and like so there are things about that that are unpalatable and there's a lot of things that Forrest look at now and go he's actually delivering because like Douglas Luiz well yeah that's what's going to bring it on to the squad they've got now they've now got if they sign him and actually I said to you earlier Sangari started the season really well he ended last season really well he's not been a success but they've got a good player in there but they've got Elliot Anderson who I think should be an England player very soon they've got Gibbs White who is one of the best in the number 10s and is in and around more competition for his position in England England squad but he's in the conversation and if you have Douglas Louise behind him that's one of the best midfielders in the country really it is well there's a real engine room there it's got creativity industry biting the tackle a bit of like class and like Louise even chipped him the goals at Villa before he left they've got three or four Brazil internationals now yeah like there've been some smart signs that they did so much so much really badly wrong they lucked out getting promoted I stand by that like I've been a bit down for us when they came up despite me having a lot of affection for the club they signed they'd still you know the fans kind of tried to argue and believe that they needed to sign 22 players in the first summer they didn't they didn't they were the same if you're signing 22 you could have signed a lot of mistakes as well they could have signed half like Sunderland half they started from a similarly low base a lot of that was just waste and on their way up to the Premier League there was so much waste and like so many managers and they signed Steve Cooper and boom chemistry and they lucked out they got promoted but they have gradually become more professional he's like made some appointments and let them stay in their position like Ross Wilson for example one of the sporting directors and they're doing things well and they're and they're making inroads and there's no reason now to see them falling away Can I just make a quick point on going back to what Martin was saying because Ken Bates was my chairman at Chelsea I deadly dug up Aston Villa and I had Bernard Tappi at Marseille and two of them Bates and obviously Bernard Tappi were very similar to Marienacos the way they behave but I mean Ken Graham Stewart he was arguing over a new contract he was in that position of limbo and it was a bit of interest and England was calling do you know I know Bobby yeah well Graham Stewart Bobby Stewart he played for Everton and Chelsea but when he was there he was a young lad and he was just getting a bit successful and he wouldn't sign a new deal at Chelsea and Ken Bates has walked into the dressing room looked around and he went, where's Bobby?

58:04I said, come over here. He had a blank piece of paper and he went, I've put Ken Bates at the bottom. Fill in everything you want. He said, King's Road, the shed, you know, just the stadium. He said, you can put all this in there. You can have what you want, but taking the mickey out of him. Right. So really undermine him. In front of everyone. Oh, in front of everyone. We're all laughing and we're all shouting things he should put in the contracts. Like, you know, but that was him he would have gone after him so what we're talking about with Izak what would he be like he'd go after him he'd confront him the dynamic at Forest is incredible and that's what Bonatapie did everyone calls him Mr Maranakis like the club statements that's you know Mr Maranakis' drive and heart and all this it's like somebody who's drafted this is like this is going to be really positive and give away standing beside him it all comes from Mr Maranakis I just want to thank Mr Maranakis the dynamic is extraordinary I can't really you referenced Ken Bates I can't remember many similar Tappy was exactly the same Ken was incredible I was there when they they thought they were they got relegated they got relegated and it was this was very funny they get relegated and he comes in to this press conference and he ends it with like it's complete defiant, like absolute, you know, total defiance, even though they've just been relegated.

59:34And he said, anyway, he said, I'm off to my£10 million farmhouse. He said, you can all F off to your council houses. And he walked out, right? And so we're coming down. It was about an hour, 45 minutes later. And we're coming down in the lift because the press box is right up the top of the, like really hanging off the top of the stand. and we come down and it stopped at, like, say, the third floor, which was the director's level floor, and the doors have opened and Ken's standing there. And I'm there in the lift, Joe Lovejoy, the Independent, and the Sunday Times, great journalist. The doors open, Ken's there, which leaves you with a lovely line, going down, Ken.

1:00:19Very good. I'm sure he was very grateful for that. Just very quickly, finishing point, just on Forrest, it could be a prediction or a hope, Martin Samuel. Can they do it again then with looking at this squad? Can they qualify for Europe again? It's very hard. Absolutely, they can. Hard? Hard, but can't. They can, but hard. I mean, when I saw Chris Wood get two goals on the opening game of the season, I think surely not another season where he's going to get. If he gets good numbers, they've got, as we've talked about, Morgan Gibbs-White is one hell of a talent. He can cause havoc everywhere. they're a solid enough team they've lost their goalkeeper but they've obviously invested again in a new one it's all for Forrest I'd be surprised if they were outside certainly top six I'd be quite surprised Gregor?

1:01:02Yeah I mean as I said before there's that stat about non-big six teams qualifying for Europe and they have like a 14 point drop off on average it's like big so it's a big challenge but Nuno's done it before with Wolves as well and managed to navigate and with six he got to the quarter finals I think with Wolves yeah I just look at them they keep strengthening And then top half, definitely. If you look at Villa and Forrest, who would you think would you go for highest at the end of the season? Oh, Villa, come on, surely. I'd go Forrest. I'd go Forrest. Wow, really? I'd go Forrest. It'd be close now.

1:01:32Very interesting. Because I'm looking, that's an even, for me, an even match-up. Very interesting. Good times. For Nottingham Forrest, we'll have to leave it there. Martin Samuel, Tony Cascarino and Gregor Robertson, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. Premier League has only been back one week. We've already got loads to talk about. We'll be back on Monday. We'll see you then.

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