Arsenal or City? Rogers or Palmer?

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times. Two very different wins at the top of the table as Manchester City show their strength at Palace whilst Arsenal wobble at home to Wolves. But just behind them Morgan Rodgers keeps Aston Villa's amazing run going. Maybe Thomas Tuchel knows what he's doing after all. On today's show we'll also discuss Sunderland's victory in the Tyne Weir derby. A brilliant win for Nottingham Forest but more woe for Thomas Frank and we'll take a look at the players heading to the Africa Cup of Nations. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the football reporter and tactics analyst Hamza Kalik Lunat and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robinson.

0:43It's here as usual. Team, breaking news. We're not going to talk about Liverpool at the top of the show. It's not a deliberate dig, Liverpool fans. You won, good win. Goals for Ekotike. Salah was back and then maybe gone again. We'll bring it up at the end of the show, but we're not starting with Liverpool, which is actually quite refreshing, I think, Gregor. Yeah, I think a lot. Listening back to Thursday's show after the Champions League, we did about 45 minutes on Liverpool and then barely mentioned any of the other wins, which they did get a few emails about that from certain listeners, but hopefully will appease them.

1:12It's waiting Hock to like a few guys that email. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I do actually like the listeners to enjoy the show, Hamza. That's generally my tactic. I mean, you know, football managers wanting the fans to be happy. It's a rogue, rogue move. I watch football. I don't enjoy most of it. Me neither. To be the Brentford leads, I will tell you, but we'll get to that. Strong start on the vibes front, everyone. Excellent. Two of you hate going to football matches despite getting paid to do it. Anyway, Alison, hopefully you enjoyed your game. And let's start there with Manchester City. And I would say an ominous victory for them against an excellent Palace side, who I thought played quite well and still lost 3-0 to a side that actually looked like they were kind of always going to win.

1:54Would that be a fair assessment of the game, do you think? That's pretty good. Why did I bother going? Someone who's watching on full screen manages to glean that information. All three of you don't actually like going to football. What a revelation this show is turning out to be. But a dominant ring for City and quite ominous, yeah. The reason it's ominous is that, well, there are lots of signs. One being that at the end, Oliver Glasner was as chuffed as I've ever seen him. Really? After a 3-0 defeat, he thought they played really well. You'd say it was better than the cup final performance. Well, not quite.

2:24But he was sort of saying it's certainly better than some of their recent victories. So he was really pleased with the application. And they were good in the first half, I thought. they were good they were good they were good throughout they just didn't have the cutting edge they hit the woodwork twice so if you've got the manager who's just lost at home 3-0 really happy with the performance the overall performance and what it means for what is their best ever start to a Premier League campaign so this I would argue doesn't derail Palace's good start in any way in fact it builds upon it but if you've got the manager who lost 3-0 being really upbeat kind of guy and the manager who's just won 3-0 reminding everybody that they've got to learn and they're not that good yet.

3:05And he's got faith that they will be, but they're not there yet. And throwing in lots of grenades of negativity as well. You know, he does that pep, doesn't he? It's like you three at the start of this show. Yeah, he'll throw in, he'll throw in a, let's not get carried away, we're not that good, and then start calling people brilliant. But his overall demeanour was one of, we can be so much better. So if you take those facts and compare them to how Arsenal and Arteta was after their very lucky win against Wolves. And there's two points in it at the top. You have to, I mean, you have to conclude, everybody has to conclude that it's by no means, by no means Arsenal's to lose.

3:47It's City's to win, I would say. Well, I'll come back to you on City and with things that were good about them from that game. But you make a good point to bring in Hamza, who was at the Arsenal-Wolves game. And with just one question, Hamza, before we'll then go back to City and then we'll come back to Arsenal. Was this, Alison touched on it there, a lucky win for Arsenal that's actually a bit worrying for their fans? Or was this a case of the cliche that we often say of, oh, good teams win when they're playing badly and find a way to win, etc. And actually you'd look at it like that. Which way would you look at this 2-1 win against Wolves?

4:16Well, result is great because three points, fantastic for the title race. The way that they responded after conceding was great. But the demeanour of Mikel Arteta in the press conference gave away that he was very, very displeased. And I think that gives away his feelings towards a match and why that point that you made is probably right, that this is less good of a performance for Arsenal and one which raises questions, which now they're going to have to answer, right? They've got to respond back in kind. And the momentum feels like it's with City at the moment. But momentum is a nebulous thing, right?

4:51So maybe we don't need to focus too much on that. Yeah. I'll go back to the guy. Gregor, what do you make of it? Alison teed it up there about whether it's you know Arsenal's to lose or City's to win different ways of framing it after these two games and listening to your two colleagues who were at both these matches I feel like it kind of peaks and troughs every passing week or couple of weeks I think City you know you look at the shot count you look at some of the chances Palace passed up it could have been a different day but they are they are looking quite clinical the fact that they have like Foden's being pretty clinical in front of goal Haaland clearly what's it 17 goals in the Premier League now like just a really good delivery in the box and it's a goal uh that's the thing that palace lad maqueta looks off it um but then arsenal like it just feels like any little chink in their armor is is kind of almost a sparks a sort of melodrama like and like oh my god are they gonna are they gonna do what they've done in the past couple of seasons and like they did ultimately find find a way to get the three points and yeah that is good for the title race so like I just think I think we all thought probably slightly prematurely that this was Arsenal's season I wouldn't get carried away by City either I still think that I still like I think they're I think I think they're improving I think they're they're a different proposition they're like they're not dominating position in the way they used to they're playing much more direct they're kind of trying to play more to Haaland's strengths but I still think that they're not the city of old.

6:24To that point, Alison, to come back to City, and you said there how good Palace was and Glasner was pleased, and Greg was saying on another day, Palace could have been 2-2 maybe in a different world. What do you think then that there's the flip side to the City argument that yes, they could then go back to being the side that concedes a few bad goals and drops a few points over this very busy period we've got coming up? I'm side with Pep. I don't think they are in that zone that they've been in in previous seasons when they have won the title. But there was something about them. They were very, how can I put it, cautious to start with.

7:04They were feeling no way through the game. A lot of sideways passing, a lot of possession, not quite as much possession as I thought they'd have, in fact. But they're very good. It's like AI football. they're very good at learning during the 90 minutes. And Phil Foden said that afterwards. We were just a bit confused to start off with. But instead of panicking or conceding in those moments, and they might have done, they might have done, the pass did hit the post. It's a standard template from them. Harlan doesn't see a lot of the ball, but he's there. And for as long as he's there, it's like a...

7:41It's a great header as well. It's a looming prospect. As soon as he gets the ball in the dangerous area, you just know he's going to score. So I think that does a lot to the mentality of the opposition. It's a great header. And other than the marking at that cross, Palace did defend very well. But what City don't do, which you see other teams doing, is they never panic. They don't seem to panic. they seemed to just sort of use the minutes that they had to learn from what was happening and to understand that in the second half particularly they would have to be a bit more inventive with their passing just push up a little bit more just be a little bit more aggressive they were being bullied a bit in midfield so they just passed it wide for a bit It was their lack of panic, really, in the face of probably Palace giving, if you trust what the manager is saying, one of their best performances of the season.

8:43And if you can do that when you're away from home and you're being bullied a little bit, out-thought a little bit and still emerge to win 3-0, I just think that says to me, you have the attributes of what it takes to be the champions because A they know it and they're not desperate to do it either there's a I mean at one point I thought I interpreted a frown from Guardiola as being as being he was a bit worried that they were a bit too relaxed if anything you know there was a casualness about also what was the debate on the side lanes oh there was a free there was a free kick awarded they looked like Harland and the choir, I think, it looked like maybe Harland had been the aggressor, but he won the free kick.

9:33So they were discussing in what ways. It was actually a city free kick. And so the expressions were hilarious. They went from Glasner trying to be intellectual and nodding along and then going, no, actually, I don't accept this. And then as soon as Gladiola realised he hadn't won the argument, going, but I think we did win the free kick fairly. And it went on and on and on and on and on and on. But they hugged at the end. Just coming back to your point then about panic versus not panic, is that ultimately what we're coming down to here. A team who've won the title lots of times in recent years with quite experienced players going, it's all right, fine, we can adapt to this.

10:06And then Arsenal, as much as Hamza, great to get the win, great late goals, et cetera, fantastic celebrations amongst the players you could see. But I did also wonder whether in some of those scenes you saw a slight bit of, I don't know, stressed relief coming out as well. It's not like, yes, we did it. I knew we'd do it. It was more, thank God we did it, you know, type thing. And was that the feeling in the Emirates, maybe? Yeah, that's true. But at the same time, whereas when I've been at the Emirates in recent years and earlier this season, and Arsenal haven't quite been playing as the way the fans would like, and the result is there, but they haven't taken it, and you can sense the anxiety.

10:45In this match, that wasn't actually there. For the majority of it, there was a self-confidence that Arsenal would actually get the win. Even though Wolves were quite dogged, and it took until the 70th minute, the fans were pretty patient in a way that I think they haven't always been. And they have faith in the project and that the team will win. In those final five minutes, I can't remember, to be honest, because I looked at my match report and I've got to change it. To be completely honest, those last five minutes, I don't remember exactly how it felt. I just sort of looked up. I went, oh, God, there's a Wolves goal.

11:19Let me rewrite this. Look down, look back up. Oh, it's 2-1 again. Oh, let me redo that. so yeah and I think as well it's probably worth remembering some other context as well so yeah Wolves are the worst team in the league and Arsenal should beat them comfortably but if you look at the stats line Arsenal are comfortably better I know they're two own goals but for example you don't get XG from own goals right so Arsenal still won the XG without having any goals right they they also had a completely rejigged back line that they were forced to change again on the 30th minute when Ben White got injured.

11:54And I think that's actually going to be the key more than sort of the panic, right? Who can keep the best players fit through this period and come out on top? It's like a sort of rollercoaster ride, but like it's more than white knuckle. It's like you're holding on and at the end of it, you just have to check which sort of vital organs you've got left, which limbs you have. Sounds like a terrible rollercoaster, I've got to be honest. Whichever team will have their heart, their lungs, their pancreas all in place, maybe the legs will be the best position to attack that second half of the season at the moment Arsenal are in an awful position with their injuries it doesn't help that their style is super intense but that's what gets some results in the first place so finding that balance is really difficult how can you be super intense that you don't ever give anything away and when for example walls break down one end you send five guys or six literally herring back and you see the sprints at the point and you're like woof that's going to take a lot out of these players physiologically how do you keep that because that's so important to ensuring a win while also making sure that you've got enough for the next game and the game after that and the game after that that's the real challenge and I'm not entirely sure how that's going to go at the moment but I think because of City's injury situation and the fact that at some point we expect Rodri will return that will give them an advantage in addition to the psychological one that they hold having been in this experience before in that final third of the season.

13:20And they have Erling Haaland. Yeah, which is ultimately one of the key things and does lead me on to the final point that I wanted to ask you, Hamza, about Victor Jokerez and his start to the season. Well, more than a start, we're well into December now. £64 million spent, two goals at home against Leeds, a goal at home against Nottingham Forest, two goals at home against Atletico Madrid and one against Burnley. It's not looking like a great fit so far, is it? It's the subject of your piece on the Times website now. Tell us a little bit about some of your points you were making in that article.

13:52I think a lot of people raised this when he was linked with Arsenal in the summer. There is a certain, when he was in Portugal, he was a very good goal scorer. But the Portuguese league is a little bit different. And the way that he scored his goals for Sporting Lisbon was that there would often be balls played in behind that he could run on to. And in the Champions League as well, you could see that. Arsenal's problem has been not just this season, but the past two, three seasons, is that teams sit back deep against them. There's not that space in behind. Now, this isn't a unique challenge. You could say, well, Erling Haaland was great at scoring counter-second goals for Borussia Dortmund, trying to put Manchester City, and then was like, oh, there's not much space to run into.

14:33I know his debut goal against West Ham was one of those goals, but if you actually look through his goal catalogue, there's not that many of him running in behind. So he's had to adapt and evolve, and he has because he's brilliant. And I don't think Jocker has. And I think it's because he's in his peak now. This is who he is as a player. You don't think he can adapt? I don't think to develop those skills to become a penalty box finisher and to add what the team needs, I think that's a little bit unfair on him as well because that's who he developed as a player. He's 27, right? To add a completely new skill set at this age is quite difficult.

15:11And I think that's why he's been struggling. that's why he's been isolated in matches and it's a different type of isolation to Haaland for example so if you take a look at Haaland even when he doesn't have the ball he is creating space and space for his teammates and problems for the opposition his movement will create opportunities for his teammates he has a gravity where he sucks players in and then suddenly someone like Foden or Dokku have space elsewhere or Shirky have space to play and exploit. Jokeres in this match he was marshalled by the Wolves defence which doesn't speak too well for him and while he was on the pitch the 29 crosses that came in and he didn't do much with any of them he had one shot in the match and then when he comes off Gabriel Jesus comes on very different type of forward not a big guy but one with exceptional movement really sharp late runs off and across the face of the goal he links in very nicely as well he does manipulate space for his teammates and that cross that Arsenal scored their second goal from.

16:14They didn't score. Well, yeah, but Jesus was the one that attacked. He made the movement to attack and that prompted the header into his own goal. And I think when you look at it, it's not acceptable that he's having fewer shots per 90 than Marino, Trossard, Havertz, Jesus in their time at Arsenal. And I'm not isolating when they're playing as strikers. I mean, in their entirety. so that includes Mourinho as a midfielder right that's not what Arsenal need or want and I think when Mikel Arteta was disappointed at the start of the press what he actually mentioned was the margin should have been bigger if the margin should have been bigger that should have been the striker's job right but this speaks to a discussion that we had last season when everyone was like they've got a sign of striker and you're thinking that's not quite the issue perhaps you could get more output from the other guys instead and a different centre forward doesn't necessarily change that dynamic but a poorer centre forward than Havertz definitely does because they're not as good Is it unkind or counterintuitive or I look at Goykeres and I don't he doesn't look like physically doesn't look like a Premier League striker is that just me being mean No no no I totally agree and I think the thing is one of his like super strength if you want to call it that has been his physicality until now and it's come back to the thing about the Premier League it's just a different world to anything else He looked like an absolute beast in the championship He looked like an absolute beast In Portuguese top flight You saw a lot of his goals, he's like a bulldozer He's not sharp around the box, he would bulldoze people Out of the way in the box Or he would get that bit of space that Hamza was talking about And they cut inside And made defenders look really average Probably because they were Now he's coming up against, even if it's the Wolves Defenders, they can match him physically Or actually more, they can dominate him physically And then what have you got?

18:07So like, I don't think I'm not going to write him off now but and it's not that long ago in fact that Arteta was saying that some of the stuff Hamza was talking about there about him drawing away defenders and creating space for others was something he was praising him for so I think there is an element of that but then almost when he's just that guy occupying defenders Arsenal look a bit clunkier in attack if it's Mourinho and it was that month when he was injured and he was dropping off and Arsenal's attack looked much more fluid and they were all it was linking with Eze and it just looked better so it's not auguring particularly well for him but the truth as well is if he's in a functioning attack for Arsenal at the top of the league he will get some goals it's just he's not I think a lot of us thought at the time when he signed he's not a game changer he's just like a really another option for them Yeah and in speaking of options then Hamza just finally on you you listed some of those players there are you suggesting that if If Wenz Havertz is fit again and with Jesus coming back, would you be picking those two players ahead of Jocheres?

19:11I think most Arsenal fans would feel that Arteta would definitely pick Havertz ahead of Jocheres. First of all, Arteta loves him. He's spoken for ages about all the qualities that he has, especially off the ball. I think what he does off the ball is far better than what Jocheres does off the ball. And then what he does on the ball, because he scores a bit more, is also better. So I think that's a pretty straightforward sort of thing. The only thing that Mikel might be a bit careful about is managing his minutes because he doesn't want to break him again. And I'm not sure about whether Jesus will slot back in as well.

19:45Again, he's someone that they need to manage very carefully because of his history of injuries. But yeah, I think let's imagine all three guys are fully fit right now. Havertz would be first choice. And then I think it might just be horses for courses for Jocker and Jesus. Really interesting. Back to Selhurst Park. I just want you to know that Operation Austrian Pastry went very well. Operation Austrian Pastry. Go on, tell us more. Do you want to know more? Well, I mean, you've got to now because you've teased it in and listeners are going to be like, what the hell is that about? Go on. Well, they might remember.

20:17So when I interviewed Oliver Glasner, head of the semifinal of the FA Cup, I was banging on about an Austrian cafe near me. And then I said, sorry, I'm banging on about the pastries and I haven't brought one for you. So next time I see you, I will bring some Austrian pastry. Of course, Operation Austrian pastry. How silly of me. But I promise. And you've got to keep a promise. And I didn't see him. I didn't actually see him the last time I saw Palace play. So I went in the morning to the Austrian cafe and they packaged up a little box for him. How many did you get? I got one big one and two little Google Hubs.

20:51Right. And we had a bit of a... And he opened the box up and started analysing the box and checking Google Translate for what they call them in Austria. When did they not lose their carbs? Halfway, half time. You just waltzed into the dressing room. No wonder they lost 3-0. Oliver! Oliver! How you should die? I've got your pastries, darling. No, seriously. He was pleased to have seen them. Seriously, I assume this was after the game. After the press conference. Okay. I just want to make sure, you know, I don't want Palestinians getting in, no wonder we lost. Oliver's distracted by some fancy pastries.

21:28No wonder he's so pleased after the match. I don't care. I can see that box over there. It's nice and big. He's got an absolute sugar rush. This is the best game ever. I love this. Absolutely fantastic, Alison. I'm delighted. Thank you for sharing that with us. The Operation Pastry went well. You can look forward to the exclusive Oliver Glasner interview with Alison Rudd at the end of the season after that, I'm sure. A quick mention for Chelsea. A good win for them against Everton, but Enzo Moresca taking the headlines after some odd comments after this game about not being supported and things like that.

22:03He is holding a press conference today, just after we finish recording this show, before their Carabao Cup match with Cardiff. So we'll return to the subject of Chelsea on Thursday as we wait to see what Enzo has to say for himself today. You can read that on the Times website, I'm sure. Cole Palmer was back, though, and pretty good timing because this season there's another English No. 10 who has the same celebration and is looking just as effective and jumped ahead of him in the pecking order. Morgan Rodgers starring again for Aston Villa in a 3-2 victory at West Ham. It's a very simple question.

22:34How good is Morgan Rodgers? He's brilliant. Isn't he brilliant? He's really good, yeah. I just love his demeanour as well. It's as though it comes so naturally to him. And I thought it was interesting that his manager says afterwards he's funny in the dressing room. It's like he's not, there's no pressure on him. He's not like, sometimes players come to the fore and it weighs on them a bit, especially there's all the chat about who, you know, who will Tuchel pick. And there is a bit of sniffiness. Well, you know, the only place for Aston Villa. And why is he taking the place of these bigger names?

23:07And why does Tuchel love him so much? But it does not show in his attitude. He'll take a shot from anywhere because he knows he's got the ability to do it, but he's not scared of the criticism he might get for not passing. He looks like he knows he's going to score. that one against West Ham no no just in a simple way but like I'm going to make this shot dipping shot look really easy actually I was watching it with the head of department James yesterday in the office and when he got that ball on the turn I went this might go in and then bang he hits it straight in and I'm not saying that to be oh I know loads about football I've just seen him do it loads of times you've just seen him do it loads of times now haven't you in his short career did he go on London Lincoln he did go on London Lincoln surely that gives me a bit of credit well I was at the Spurs game and he did something very similar.

23:54It's also just sort of the instinct to do it. In that game, I think he tried to get a one-two and it kind of ricocheted back off Javi Siemens, I think it was. And he just took one, like the ball just kind of almost bounced off him. And at that moment, he just like, in a split second, he was playing that, hitting that knuckleball strike. It's like, it's a little sick. And he hits it and you know it, and you're like, that's in. It's like a couple of times before I think, like when I was a kid, I remember there was a kid when I was like 12 and there was an era, a period where you could shoot from outside the box and the goalkeepers were still quite small.

24:26You just moved up to 11 v 11. And it was so easy. I remember shooting from outside the box I'd score like 30 goals from left back a season. It was brilliant. It's like he's got that attitude. It is, you're right. He thinks, I know that I've got this technique and if I strike and connect with it properly, this is a goal. He's got that depth, he's got the power. Some of his finishes and strikes reminds me a little bit of that season Gareth Bale had at Tottenham where he's picking that ball up in that kind of pocket between defence and midfield. and turning and most other players would be like pass play a through ball and he's like no i'm just going to put this in that top corner about 30 yards away absolutely no problem also when i was saying all that there are parallels with cole palmer like obviously they're friends like not just the celebration was his first with morgan roger's celebration yeah and obviously they came through at city together but there is a bit of a like palmer's like ridiculously laid back but there is a kind of just a enjoyment a sense of enjoyment when they're on the pitch like this is where we belong and this journey's been remarkable really when you can not just the loan and yeah going to middlesbrough which wasn't didn't work and he was at blackpool as well i think on loan and that wasn't particularly good for him middlesbrough was where they started to kind of really kick on but still it was like what were they saying from seven million or ten million or something yeah not loud uh and i was like oh that's a bit of a punt and and it's just immediately this is the stage on which i belong and like there was coming back to cole palmer again his goal at weekend they're also so intelligent like despite the laid back and the fun and all this they're smart go palmer if you watch the his goal at the weekend when for fan i was running forward with the ball he was pointing at gusto he was like give him the ball give him the ball and he was in a little pocket space give him the ball and when he passed it to him he made the run and he slotted him in scored a goal rubbing his arms easy as pie but there's a lot of intelligence in that to it and Rogers is the same when he gets he links up in the little spaces so easy the way he just kind of fires it into someone for a one-two with outside of his foot and it all just looks really easy but it's also really intelligent football.

26:27I think when it's interesting that you mentioned enjoyment because for a while this season Rogers looked like he actually wasn't enjoying the match, the games because he was playing poorly and I actually think I mean Johnny did his piece on Villa as well this weekend but I think this is a masterclass in man management by Unai Emery he's spoken about this a number of times he essentially said when Villa was struggling he says I know we're struggling I know that Morgan Rodgers is struggling and when you looked at him in matches it was you were thinking who's this guy where's the guy that we saw last year I was at the Feyenoord match in particular I was like what was he doing he was not doing the things that he usually executed so that came to him so easily it was simple passes and you think he's trying so hard but it's not working and I was very clear in that I am going to stick with him.

27:16He's going to ride this out. I'm going to back him through this bad period of form and he's going to come good. And likewise with Ollie Watkins as well. But the whole Villa team really, given the start of the season. The key thing was that they would play through Rodgers in particular, right? He would be the guy that switches that slow period of possession where they're in the defensive third and then they move it into him and then bang, they snap forward and they attack. So their attack hinged on him and he wasn't playing well and it became very obvious. And Unai backed him and backed him and backed him and knowing that he would come good, and he did.

27:49And now he's getting the rewards for that. So I think it's both testament to Rodgers' quality as an individual, but also enormous respect for Unai Emery in deciding that he would stick with him through this bad patch. Where other managers might say, you're not playing well, we'll actually give you a break. But he said, no, persist with this. Keep playing, you will be back. And yeah, now he's playing brilliantly. Yeah, well, we discussed the top two in the title race. Villa just behind them are they in the title race? This is where Hamza really should be talking about the data because the data says no Which data is that?

28:26They've scored 25 Premier League goals from expected goals of 17.06 That's a big differential They're all Morgan Rodgers Even in this game the XG was 1.04 to West Ham and 0.62 for Villa That says a lot but they scored 10 goals from outside the blocks this season that's 3 more than any other team and then another start from Bill Edgar's column this morning, 7 consecutive wins in all columns by a single goal margin which is the most by a top flight team since Chelsea in 1965-66 these are low margin like also relying on quite a lot of wonder goals so you know from that perspective then the answer is no also when you look at the squad depth I think probably the answer is no but when they have Rodgers if Ollie Watkins was to really really like kick on yeah yeah if he was to really kick on I don't see why they couldn't hang on to the coattails and make it interesting make it interesting because as I say I don't think Arsenal or City are without their flaws yeah well Villa fans Arsenal fans and City fans do get in touch with me tom.clark at the timed .co.uk just one final little stat Morgan Rodgers all nine of his Premier League away goals for Aston Villa have either put them in the lead or drawn them level.

29:43Big game player. We're going to bring up West Ham in the second part of the show when we look at the bottom of the table. So time for a quick break, but one positive for West Ham this weekend. Jared Bowen became the second player to reach 100 Premier League goal involvements for the club. Who is the other with 101? Find out after the break.

30:09Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times I'm Tom Clark and I've got Hamza Khalid Luna Alison Rudd and Gregor Robertson back on song with answers to the quiz question straight away which was Mikel Antonio Mikel Antonio indeed West Ham fans we are going to talk about your situation down at the bottom of the table in just a minute but instead we're going to go to Sunderland the Time Weir Derby let's be honest a terrible game of football this one but Sunderland fans do not care in the slightest a win for them 26 points they've beaten the local rivals this season just keeps on getting better for Regis Lebris doesn't it Gregor?

30:47Yeah extraordinary raucous scenes like Stadium Light looked like it was just bouncing yeah absolutely loved it you know 10 years you know you feel like there could have been a hint of sort of an inferiority complex considering this is a team that have been you know in the doldrums just been promoted and yeah they've started the season brilliantly but you know there was just no sign of that whatsoever there was like more clearly there was they were like full of punch and all the kind of gritty all the cliches of a derby yeah but that's what they're like every week yeah like they almost look like Newcastle at their best like they match that they matched or bettered them for all the things like intensity and the force of the tackle all these kind of things as I say it wasn't a great game but I do think Sunderland were the better side in this one they deserved the win despite the farcical nature with which it came which we'll come on to in a second but I think they were the better team in this game yeah players like Xhaka Enzo Le Fay Talby they look like they wanted to take the game by the scruff of the neck as well Nordi McKaylee is my new favourite player as well the right back obviously a fairly crunching talent challenge with Dan Byrne I don't think it was a red card despite a lot of people's know.

31:58No, no. I mean... But there was a great moment in the second half where I think he tracked back and kind of won the ball and kicked it out for a throw and it just went mental, like screaming at the crowd, going, come on, fantastic. Yeah, you know I think about that. Yeah, I knew you wouldn't let him have that one. What about the big challenges at the end? There was a couple of big challenges. I think Trey Hulme put in a big tackle and gave it a large... Close to... 93rd minute. Yeah, you're close to the final muscle. In stoppage time, you're allowed. Is that the Gregor Robertson rule? Yeah, there's buckets on your job at hand.

32:26Roy Keane alert everybody but I mean listen as I said 26 points they've won 26 points in 16 Premier League games this season they're most at this stage of a top flight campaign since 2000-2001 which was also 26 when they went on to finish 7th I mean we're going to talk about AFCON later and they're missing more players than any other side in the Premier League by a long way but despite that they have got a strong squad having spent well there's no reason I can't see that they can't hopefully keep this going yeah like I mean you can get carried away and like as I say I think if we were to finish in the top half of the table it would be extraordinary and it's already turned into one of the stories of the season and it was much needed considering you know we got excited about Leeds and Burnley starting well too and you thought oh this is great and then Burnley are looking like they've fallen off a cliff Leeds as well coming to talk about need one man to stay fit if they've got any chance I think but Sunderland like yeah I don't it looks like they've recruited really smartly that's the difference they've recruited brilliantly and like they were bold 16 new players like as Alison wrote about in her column at the weekend like that comes with it's own risk since it's a risk you could kind of upset the apple cart and you know the atmosphere and the environment and changing room and stuff could be really turned upside down it's not done that and as I keep saying there should be like a bingo game with Regis Labris when he uses the word connectivity he uses it between the players he uses it between the between the crowd and the players and like he's always talking about that and clearly he's done an amazing job at forging that within the changing room so you see that on the pitch and you see like Jack has been one of the signings of the season like if not the signing of the season because Robin Roos isn't far behind him I don't think he looks yeah but for the for the personality and the leadership and the drive and all those things and you saw him speaking about quite kind of prickly and he'd start a post-match and he'd go about you know this is karma about the photograph and stuff like that it wasn't there he had made no bones about it but it's great it's great that they did that as well obviously yeah the visitors on the scoreboard absolutely magnificent stuff it comes back to the point about you know moving the S-Hordings in and everything like that they're just like come on then let's have it come on let's go let's go we're going to show you we can stay in this league after the last two seasons they've obviously got the people who do their recruitment are clever people I mean they appointed a manager who'd just been relegated in Ligue 1 in France.

34:54That doesn't bode well, does it? Grabbing a guy who's just overseen a relegation campaign and yet he gets to grips with the Championship very quickly. Very well, yeah. Then you think, well, okay, Championship. Maybe it's on a par with the French First Division, but how's he going to cope in the Premier League? He's got the brains. He strikes me as a really intelligent coach. He's got the brains. And like Gregor said, there's always a danger if you do an overhaul of personnel that you'll lose something to do with the locals and that connection between the town and the pitch. You always need one.

35:33It's like they've acknowledged that and worked really hard at making sure the new players understand what it means to play for Sunderland. So if you had just landed from a different galaxy, you might have guessed that all the players playing for Sunderland were from Sunderland. They all look like they've been there ages. And all the players from Newcastle were not from Newcastle. There was that sense of it really, really mattered. And sometimes in derbies where there are new players and you're sometimes saying, oh, it's a shame. I didn't really get that the players understood what was at stake there.

36:07They'd been taught. I don't know if they'd had some sort of presentation. Watched a couple of DVDs or something. But they got it. They definitely got it. They definitely got it. absolutely fantastic anyone prepared I know a few Sunderland fans I'm sure they probably wouldn't want us to say this but anyone prepared to say that Sunderland will survive definitely of course of course I think so 100 % oh my god we're going to get some complaints from Sunderland fans about that one points or something and they've already got 26 they've got the money in the bank already it's done by Christmas you look at the underlying figures and they're not that good but it doesn't matter because they've got the points right so I think I guarantee there are still some Sunderland fans that'll be twitchy out there of course see I think in terms of under performance and over performance relative to XG I think they have the third highest over performance so their results probably haven't been as have been better than their underlying lots of late goals lots of late goals but as in good teams get late goals but there's been seasons where a team has over performed by a lot and that's just been the story they over performed for the season that's great so yeah with the volume of points that they already have I think they're in a good position.

37:15So even if or when they drop off, they'll be able to retain their position in the league. A fantastic afternoon for Sunderland, but dreadful from Newcastle. I thought they were absolutely dismal. One of the worst performances from their side. Eddie Howe apologising to the fans after the game, which I guess is the rule when you lose a derby match against your rivals. He's been apologising for away performances quite a lot this season. He has, yeah. And also I've got a stat here that they haven't kept a clean sheet in their last nine games in the Premier League, equaling the longest run without one in the competition under Eddie Howe, which goes back a couple of seasons, which, to your point, Gregor, about Sunderland matching them for all those things we've known about Newcastle in the last couple of seasons, doesn't bode well for Eddie Howe.

37:50This season, I keep talking about it, they're probably one of the most inconsistent teams in the league. I think he needs to stop apologising, to be quite honest. I think it's as though he's... What does he do instead? I'm being dramatic. It's like he's writing his own resignation letter. So he should be critical of his players instead? No, no, not necessarily. Although he has been. He has been critical of them and said they've fallen below the standards that he thinks they have and expects from them. He's trying all the different ways into what you say publicly to try and improve results. But I think it would be better if he said, well, we're playing against a team who didn't have any European match midweek.

38:29I have the resources I have. I've got a Champions League campaign. We are summoning the best we can summon. And by all means, say you wanted more oomph from a local derby. But to be consistently apologising, I don't... What you're left with, it might sound statesman-like in the moment, but the cumulative effect of so many apologies is that he's out of his depth in some way, which means you start getting chat about, oh, he's in danger, oh, he might get the sack. Yeah, true. Given, which if you rewind, I think feeds back into this, when there was the Saudi takeover, there was a feeling they were going to get an A-list manager.

39:13Karl Ancelotti. Yeah, Eddie Howe coming from Bournemouth was not considered to be, he was considered to be a good English coach, but he wasn't the sparkling type of manager they thought they'd get. And then there was talk, if you remember, about Eddie Howe being, well, interim while they sort out how they spend all this money they've got. And then he ended up being rather good at the job. And there was quite a lot of love for him. But I think when he apologises, he sounds like the manager they didn't really want to start with. I actually think they've got... I was just going to talk about the resources and stuff.

39:44I actually think they've got quite a strong, deep squad. They've got a good striker. He's good at heading the ball, isn't he? Well, great finish one, isn't he? I genuinely think there's a part of me that looks at it and goes, did he just forget they'd swapped in? It's a great header by Volta Marlowe. Well, some people wear elastic bands when they play. and twink just to wake themselves up so they do remember which end they're shooting at I refuse to believe there's Premier League football twinging elastic bands go on look at the players you came on Char Willock Harvey Barnes Murphy's been brilliant for them Ewan Wisser is back they had Joe Ellington and Jacob Ramsey on your sub I think Joe Ellington had a knock Jacob Ramsey was a brilliant that's a strong strong sword I don't think I can agree I don't think there isn't I don't think he has anything to really be apologising for.

40:33I think that some of the players aren't really doing it for him. There's been quite a lot of stick in the aftermath of this for Anthony Lange. He's not really navigated this move. He started quite well but he was 55 million that's quite a lot for Newcastle. So does anyone think Eddie Howe's in trouble? No. He certainly shouldn't be. I mean the job he's done has been outstanding and it has still been a bit of a Jekyll and Hyde season for them. They've still looked really good in some games their way for him as Alison said has been horrendous and he needs to arrest that but they've been pretty good on the whole in Europe there's a bit of a downside during the week but the season is still full of possibilities for them.

41:14You are allowed to have down seasons I think if you from an ownership or board perspective and I think fans probably should take that long of you as well when you've got a manager as good as Eddie Howe I think maybe there should be a bit of reflection with how the players are managed in terms of keeping them fit and that might be something that he's looking at internally or the club are looking at internally at the same time they're a little bit unlucky as well in terms of their underperformance relative to their ex-g they are underperforming but at the same time they are half as good as they were last season they are poorer but probably not this poor and that's where you go okay maybe they're a bit unlucky but there is definitely areas to improve and I think maybe working on conditioning and fitness would go a long way in terms of being able to manage three games a week in European matches.

41:58And Woltemar, although he's been a success in his score, he's found in the net, he doesn't scream like a Newcastle player in the sense of Eddie Howe's Newcastle. They're all about dynamism and direct forward running and he's not a runner. They're trying to make him a bit of a target man around which they can sort of play as well and he actually would probably prefer to drop in and like the play. And so I think they're still working out that dynamic and I'm not sure it's entirely comfortable all for them they've lost specifically the ability to press high and then turn those chances into goals that's just the Isak factor right because if Gordon wins a ball and then squares it to Isak bang that dynamic has changed and that was so important for them last season so they're still adjusting to that yeah interesting congratulations to Sunderland fans though Gregor you mentioned some of the teams down the bottom there and we've already talked about West Ham's defeat against Aslan Villa so let's bring them in and the game that you were at Brentford against Leeds not a cracker this one thank God for some goals for some former England players in Jordan Henderson and Dominic Calvert-Lewin I will just say Gregor Robson is understandable why you don't like making predictions because before this game he texted me saying he texted me saying this is going to be 3-2 to someone I'm looking forward to it they've had some quite spicy games in the recent past and Brentford at home are usually a really good ticket yeah I would have predicted goals fourth best record in the league I think at home still so yeah there was some you know there's some merit to that prediction but it was a bad prediction I'll give you that it was a bad game who was this a better point for?

43:36you know the reality is neither of them no no no take the point on both of them it was a good point for both of them and actually I think that that was borne out in the first 70 minutes of the game like because neither both teams looked more scared to lose than desperate to win sort of thing and when the goal arrived it was it was Damsgaard producing a moment of like as a substitute he didn't play him because I think Keith Andrews went for a bit more of a combative midfield kind of because Leeds obviously have changed to a back three they've gone a bit more direct they've been quite good from set plays I think he wanted to kind of combat all those things the goal when Damsgaard came on lovely pass cut back Henderson scored and then Calvert-Lewin is really the story is the thing I wrote about because there was nothing else to write about but also it is a good story because when he signed for Leeds everyone I'm sure everyone thought this could be a great signing if they keep him fit and it's been so far so good obviously we're only 15-16 games into the season there's a long way to go but because he scored in his last four games in a row which is the first time he's done anything like that since 2020 he's already getting questions, Vark was fielding questions he was fielding questions about England and like he's so good in the air like the ball into the box when it comes in you see his movement and he's running his timing and his leap and it's a thing of beauty there's nothing better than seeing a great header of the ball score a goal like that and he's one of the best you keep saying could and you're quite right that's probably been the word that sums up Dominic Calvin Lewin's career but if he can stay fit and if he can score some goals any chance of getting on that World Cup plane?

45:18I mean it's another big pause that Hamza wasn't it again That squad is pretty tough to get into There's a lot of attacking players and I think It's like you'd have to probably leave out one of the number 10s and there are going to be a lot of them And when Thomas Ducal has earmarked Foden as a potential number 9 option I think because he wants to get me in the squad but doesn't want too many number 10s I wouldn't write it off I wouldn't write it off Fark said that he's had conversations with Thomas Ducal about him and if he was to go on a really hot streak let's not forget that his last England game was the quarter finals of the Euros in 2021 against Ukraine he didn't feature much in that but he went to those Euros when he was fit and he was in his pomp so he offers something different he used to say the same about Ivan Toni and that looks unlikely now he offers something different like someone you can throw on and he's brilliant in there like among the best there is in the Premier League was this a look Greg we know how there's been more directness in the league this season was this a look at a match where that's gone a bit too far both teams playing a bit too different I wouldn't say that I would just say it was a stinking match there was no quality there was very little intensity it was awful I'm looking at passing accuracy and it's like it was brutal it was one of those games where you think the best league in the world and you're having a laugh I was watching that first half and thinking about our conversation last week with Tom Olnutt going football's class isn't it football's great Fulham Palace what a game what standard this league and I'm going oh my god this is absolutely awful as you say but yeah Let's not dwell too much on that, but let's talk about the bottom of the table because that point for Leeds means three games unbeaten, a win and two draws.

46:58Have them in 17th place on 16 points. West Ham losing against Villa. I thought they played quite well in that game against Villa. They were good in the first half, had chances. As I say, Jarrod Bowen looking bright. Burnley losing at home to Fulham, starting to look bad for them and Scott Parker. And Brentford, Bournemouth and Forest just above them. we're going to come on to Forest in just a second how are we thinking about the bottom of the table Leeds showing positive signs, bit of a fight Yeah, Luke after changing to 3-5-2 they came within, it was a 91st minute goal by Phil Foden, denied them a point against City, four points from Chelsea and Liverpool they've been awful on the road this is a good point for them Cavaloon's in with the goals they do look a bit more I don't know, coherent, it looks like more of a like it suits them the shape suits them so yes they're they're looking better but still going to be touch and go West Ham just need to do something about their defence I'm telling you Nuno hates so many of his defenders like he turns around you look at him at any game he turns around and like with a scornful look on his face at some of the things his defenders are doing and he spoke about afterwards he's like we can't keep shooting ourselves in the foot basically like this because otherwise like the game plan the threat they offer on the break things like that he's given them a chance now so yeah and Burnley it's the same defensively except they're not quite as good going forward yeah well here's a hot take from me that's perhaps not as hot as the Sunderland one are definitely going to stay up Nottingham Forest are not going down not a chance if they play anything like they did against Tottenham they'll be top half up in the top half they were absolutely fantastic all the things we've talked about on this show that good teams in the Premier League need to have physicality pace intensity intensity, gold creating chances from all over the pitch.

48:50Hutchinson looks fantastic. Jesus up front looks really bright. Sangara, what a fantastic goal. Like, it reminded me of one Michael Essien scored quite a few years ago for Chelsea. Super Sean Dyche has got him playing well. It's almost like that Ange Postacoglu bit was like a bad dream in the middle of the season. It's crazy to think, isn't it? This Forest team started with Nuno, then had Ange and has now got Sean Dyche. It is bonkers, isn't it? But they're playing brilliantly. Tom Holm that said that in his intro to his piece you think about these are two teams that have had to navigate transitions like Forrest have far more turmoil than Spurs you know you would say it like if Spurs got a better team on paper it's not close didn't have one yesterday I'm telling you Forrest were better than them in every department and yeah like he's given them that sort of defensive solidity he always talks about the same things too he's like I love the shape and organisation and the platform that foundation that my team had but we were also talking the other day Hamza and I about the fact that you would think when you look at the kind of possession stats you would think Tych has been there a long time now that Forest would have plummeted and they've been the all game where they have like seeded possession but they're still like in the low 50s which is for a Sean Dyche team is quite unusual I think he's recognised that I've got better players here than probably I've ever had at any other team let's get them in good positions and get the most from them.

50:16So he still wants that platform, but he's got an array of attacking talents and two players who could be England midfielders and he's letting them do their thing. I loved his quote. He said something like, we did everything without the ball well. We did everything. There's three bits to the game, he said. Yeah, with the ball well. And all the other bits did those well. I mean, they really did. You can't disagree with him. They were absolutely fantastic. There was a great moment as well, I think, where Murillo, I think he shoved Richarlison off the ball and it got given as a foul and he kind of just looked up and looked down at Richarlison as if to say, oh, you lot are so soft.

50:48That's not a foul in this team, you know, kind of thing. But that quote, I think, is so instructive because they were playing Spurs. And that's what Thomas Frank is trying to do and failing to do. And Sean Dyche, with less time, has done it, which is you get the basics right. Yeah. And Forrest, he's allowed to try and do that. Spurs, they're not interested. The fan base are not interested in a manager who comes in and tries to get the basics right. They want the other fluffy stuff to come first. Flare stuff, I think we could call it. And get the basics. The basics will come automatically. Well, they won't, will they?

51:22They won't come automatically. You have to build from the bottom up. And Frank is being pilloried for trying to make them solid, to try and follow that Sean Dyche mantra, which is the correct order of things. You don't allow flair to happen unless you've got the basics right. That makes absolute sense. Every manager, every single manager will say, you start with your solid defence and then a thinking solid midfield. And then you start worrying, wondering about who you've got up front. I mean, I've been sceptical about Thomas Frank's chances of success at Tottenham on this show a couple of times, but I was watching this game and thinking, you've not got a very good squad here, mate.

52:02Like, you've not got, I don't think they've got any leaders really, particularly. I know Romero's the captain, but he spent half this game on his arse rolling around trying to get free kicks after being bullied as the centre-half. And I don't think they've got any, like, to use the kind of kids' threat, like, clutch players. You know, we talk about Morgan Rodgers for Aston Villa going, give me the ball, I'll bang one in the top corner. I look at that Tottenham team and go, who have they got? And I know they're missing players with injury and stuff. Maybe you could say Maddison would be that if he was fit.

52:27Kulisevsky. Yeah, Kulisevsky. They're huge losses. But you look at the team Frank's got and you go, no-one was grabbing this game and going, right, we're going to stand up to Forrest. They just, like, rolled over. It was pathetic. Are we thinking about Spurs wrong? Should we, because we consider them a team that top six, they're thereabouts, but last season they were 17th. Should we, in the same way that we adjusted our expectations of Manchester United, think about this as a team that is now roughly mid-table, obviously not 17th, not 16th Manchester United, but a team that is now quite a way away from those top teams that compete regularly in Europe and that needs time and development and structure in order to move back into that bracket that needs serious work.

53:15Will the fans give them the time for that though? That's the question. That is the question. While still competing in the Champions League, of course, which they are. I think it's worth posing that question because when you look at the quality, when was the last time Spurs displayed a level of good performance? Seriously, can you remember? This is a serious question. When would you say that was? As in consistent run against? No, I can't remember. You could have made the same point for Liverpool because they stopped being good after the PSG match. They stopped being champions level from March onwards.

53:46So this period of form that you see now, well, actually, it's eight months worth of not very good performances. I think you could say that for an even longer period with Spurs, which then means, okay, why are we judging them as a team? Well, obviously, they're in the Champions League, but that should be, let's say. Oh, yeah. I often ask myself that question. I'm not sure why we should judge them. So you agree with Hamza that actually maybe we should reframe Tottenham this season as a mid-table team? I think we should reframe them always.

54:17Their actions are obviously where they want to be. This is an existentialist. There goes every single Tottenham listener that we've had. But maybe they'll agree. I mean, I think when you look at that squad and that performance yesterday against Forrest... It's actually an inherent problem. Spursiness is a problem. No, it's the same. No, no, no. But if you have a fan base, and it's a big fan base, because they are traditionally a big club, who believe that they stand for something and they never allow that thing to blossom. They want it to happen by magic. You are always going to fail. Big questions for Thomas Frank and the Tottenham board as well.

54:55Sunder, who's a listener getting in touch, saying that they need to spend some investment in January to support Frank and his desires to get Tottenham further up the table. There is, I mean, the rumours are that they have the money to spend. The decision is whether they want to spend it on what Frank wants or someone else wants. It's whether we will see it. Let's finish very quickly, as I joked at the start of the show, with a quick mention for Liverpool's 2-0 win against Brighton. Hamza, we were saying before the show, Brighton look pretty good in this game. They've taken their chances. We might have been talking about something else entirely.

55:26Africa Cup of Nations coming up. I mentioned earlier Sunderland, the team with the most players leaving for that competition with six. Manchester United also losing three as are Fulham and Burnley and then lots of teams losing two. Everton losing and Di and Gay they're going to be huge losses for them. Leeds, Chelsea, Arsenal, Newcastle, Bournemouth and Villa all not losing any players. Liverpool just losing the one. Mo Salah back for Liverpool but maybe back for the last time. Do we think we'll see him in a Liverpool shirt? Again, just a quick answer. Alison, Hamza, then Greg. Yes. Hamza? I hope so.

55:58Yes, I think. There's been a lot of big long pauses on this show and that was another final one sorry I'd love to work a good question yeah yeah thanks so much Hamza back with some compliments nice to see just before Christmas it's kind of got a feeling is that he he doesn't want to buy it and go to the Saudi I may be completely wrong a person doesn't sign like wrangle over the contract for that long yeah and say I actually quite like to play that's a big part of it I think what will happen is that AFCON has come at the perfect time for this entire situation that he goes away to AFCON and maybe wins AFCON, as Ian Hawkey's writing on their Times website today.

56:34Big pressure on Egypt to finally deliver. They've lost two finals with Salah in the team. And they'll come back and Liverpool will just pretend that whole thing didn't happen. We're like, what? What fallout? Mo, we're delighted. Come on back. Congratulations on your amazing performance from AFCON. We're looking forward to you having us qualified for the Champions League. It's great. Nice to have you back. On the team that he returns to. Very true. If this is a team that still needs goals, and it's, thank God, Mo, you're back. But if, for example, in a month's time... It's all clicked without him.

57:00Yeah, Issac and Ekotika are starting together and Verts is playing behind them and it all looks wonderful, then it's a very different discussion. So Slott has a month essentially to work out on the field whether Salah is a necessary player for him or not. Yeah, really interesting. We'll see what the next month holds. We'll leave it there. Alison Rudd, Hamza Kalik Luna and Gregor Robinson. Thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Thursday.