Arsenal show their mettle as Palace, Brighton and Brentford rock the big guns

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1:10Gregor Robertson: Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times. The late, late show is the headline in the game pullout in today's times after a weekend with eight stoppage time goals and bucket loads of drama. Eddie Nketiah's 97th minute winner ended Liverpool's perfect start and sent Crystal Palace second in the Premier League. A 96th minute Gabriel header skewered Newcastle United to boost Arsenal's title credentials. And after more late goals and big results for Brentford, Brighton, Bournemouth and Sunderland who are up to fifth, we'll be asking if the Premier League has ever been stronger.

1:46Gregor Robertson: Plus, before a ball was even kicked this weekend, Graham Potter was sacked by West Ham United and we'll be discussing if Nuno Espirito Santo is the right man to reverse the East Londoners' fortunes. I'm Greg Robertson and joining me in the studio today we have the Times' very own Gary Jacob, the former Chelsea and Aston Villa striker and Times columnist Tony Cascarino. And joining us down the line from Newcastle, we are also joined by the Times' Northern football correspondent, Martin Hardy. Guys, what a weekend of football. I'll be honest, I did Thursday's show and Tom's on holiday, I'm in the chair here and I'm not sure what we're going to talk about today.

2:22Gregor Robertson: but this weekend we haven't got time for it all tone yeah well as soon as you lose you know Manchester United lose Liverpool lose Chelsea lose Arsenal go to Newcastle and win you know Spurs are behind in their game but get a late equaliser sack manager and sack manager Graham Potter obviously win as well yeah football is never predictable in any shape or form no well I think the first place to start Martin good to have you on the show I'm sorry we're not going to start with your game we'll come to that we'll start the second half with that ignored in the north as usual not at all not at all I think because today as I said it's a big weekend for a lot of the middle classes and Palace are the ones leading that this season massive win massive win Eddie Nketiah scored with virtually the last kick of the game to give Palace what I think we'd agree was a deserved victory totally deserved Federico Chiesa 87th minute equalise looked like he'd salvage a point for Liverpool but what a moment for Palace who they're unbeaten in 18 games in all competitions Phenomenal When you watch the two teams play in the Community Shield the first 10-15 minutes Liverpool were all over them they scored and you thought they were going to kind of go away with it and Glasner found his way into that game and found a way to get at Liverpool in that game Munoz got at Kürkez and it was almost a carbon copy on Saturday and he said in his press conference on Friday I know Liverpool play I know their set pieces and he really executes it perfectly because the pressing was perfect, the use of the wings backs was perfect, getting into Canate, finding the weakness in him was perfect.

4:01Everything was perfect. They stopped Salah, they're diagonal balls into Salah, Michel did a very good job on him and everything kind of came to plan. I mean, the only surprise was they weren't two or three, four up at halftime, really. I mean, Liverpool was sort of fortunate to even be in it. But to be fair to Slott, he made the changes at halftime and they were a much, but they actually stopped it in the second half and they were a much better team and they had the chances obviously to equalise before obviously losing it.

4:29Gregor Robertson: You referenced the system there. I mean, that's the big thing. That's the thing that stands out. Everyone knows their job to a T. Everyone knows their job to a T and he's improved all the players in the system. You know, Mateta, who for his first couple of years you weren't sure about, he's improved him tremendously in terms of leading the line but also the goals. Mitchell at left back, are you, well, you're not sure, but now he's, and Glasner said before Christmas, you know, want Mitchell to be better in possession. Last week he's praising him for being brave and getting that volley against West Ham.

5:00You know, it was him that actually was part of the first goal. He won the corner, okay, it was a disputed corner, but he won the, he got forward, won the corner. And you thought when they made the signings this summer that maybe he might end up losing his plays or not plays frequently, but he's really raised his game. Kamada, another one, who's kind of took, I think the overriding theme is that, you know, and we did a sort of piece of this, Glasner's quite an impatient guy, and he admits that as his strength and his weakness, but he's been very patient and allowed certain players to find their feet.

5:31He's allowed Camargo to find his feet. He's allowed Midgeford to find his feet. You know, Will Hughes does a good job when he's got in there. And it's really, it's the unsung hero separately to what Eze was doing before. He left and Gahey. Chris Richards a year ago wasn't in the team because they signed Chalabar. Come January, Chelsea pulled Chalabar back and he's been a phenomenal. He was excellent in the cup final and he's been very, okay, he made a mistake on the weekend although he might say maybe the ball came off Sulla's hand and that's kind of why he kind of, but he was excellent. And I think you're right.

6:06Conte played that system and Chris Coleman played that system. Bale used to say it with Wales when he played it with that system when he had Ramsey and Bale. so we had Ramsey and Bale in behind either Vokes or Hal Robson-Karnou Bale would say about that system that everyone knows the system we play but we know it better and you feel like with Glasner it's exactly the same thing everyone knows what they're going to do but you've got to stop them you've got to stop Munoz's runs, the timing of his runs are so good

6:38Gregor Robertson: Cass, you wrote about Liverpool and works today we'll come to Liverpool but first of all Palace just so impressive so impressive yeah and as I'd echo what Gary said absolutely spot on I'd echo the fact there's also a lot of players at Crystal Palace have joined the club or come through at the system that have got a point to prove and it feels like every position whether it's Dean Henderson in goal who was a Manchester United goalkeeper went to Sheffield United ends up at Palace has done really well you go through the team it's literally every position Mitchell's likewise you look at Richards in the centre half position you look at Adam Walton coming in from Blackburn as a championship player, having something to prove.

7:18Mateta, Gary's already spoke about him. Again, Mateta, in my opinion, is probably the most improved player I've ever watched, I've ever seen. Have I watched Mateta two years ago and the one I'm witnessing now? Completely different.

7:32Gregor Robertson: He's not a Sar. Big part of that though with Mateta is the system. It's like he was really isolated a lot under previous managers. Yes, but people join him. Now he's got players up to the same quickly. Sar's a prime example. of, you know, this is the Sarr that scored a brace at Vicarage Road against Liverpool and tore Liverpool apart a good few moons ago. I saw him in the Championship on a few occasions and it felt like he wasn't the same player. Crystal Palace have got him in at quite a low fee and he absolutely fits their system perfectly because he's lightning quick and he and again, he's a player that's having to prove a point.

8:03You literally go through every position in the pitch at Crystal Palace. It's the same story of players having to listen to a manager that's improving them but they're also listening and instruction. And they play, again, if you look at teams that have played that formation, I mean, I said to you boys off air, Man United play the same system, yeah? Which one of the Man United players in the back line would you take over a Palace player? Any of them? Goalkeeper you can add in as well. Would you take the goalkeeper at Man United over Henderson? I would say the five are all better at Palace than there are Manchester United and including the goalkeeper's six.

8:43And you might even go into midfield. You start going, if you do the composite between Crystal Palace and Manchester United, I think most people would take more Palace players.

8:51Gregor Robertson: Martin, you cover a team in Newcastle who, again, we have the sort of same conversation about they look brilliantly coached, well-drilled. It's been a slightly difficult start to the season for Newcastle. But in Oliver Glasner, it's the same sort of traits, isn't it? Great organisation, remarkable industry. And as I say, everyone knows their job. we're going to come to West Ham the game changes and it's more scientific and there's more thought but then you see a club that jumps from a completely different manager to a completely different manager just because he's available so if West Ham were truly ambitious and wanted to turn this round why have they not tried to fight to get Crystal Palace as manager why have they not done something really bold rather than Nuno's available, he doesn't play the West Ham style he's not somebody that we probably would have chosen but because we're in a bit of a panic it'll cost the club probably 20 million quid Glasner's doing a great job I'm not being disrespectful of Crystal Palace but the bigger clubs will now start certain of them because he's done such a good job and bear in mind it was a really difficult summer for him how close he came to losing his captain on the final day of the window one of the key players there you've not really touched upon I think Adam Wharton's a great player and spoken to Tony Mowbray about how good he was when he was 15 and 16 at Blackburn and he makes a great difference.

10:08The organisation is hugely important. I still think we're seeing a Liverpool team that's trying to itself adjust to the new players that they've signed. You've mentioned there Canardi. The contrast between him and Mark Gay is staggering. Canardi looks like he's kind of, during a game, busy trying to find out which part of Madrid he wants to move to next summer. Mark Gay's come back in and slotted in as this consummate professional. Why everybody you talk to said, this is a player that's going to get better and better. So within there, but yes, you can see a coach that works very hard, keeps his structure.

10:45We went, funny enough, I was at the Doncaster game at the start of Crystal Palace's FA Cup run. Doncaster Rovers main stand is freezing cold of a night game. And he came in after the game, takes his coat off, sits chatting everybody. really, and from what I was told after the game, spends time with the Doncaster Rovers coach and staff in the manager's office is embracing the culture of English football and you can see the benefits for what he's doing for his team as I said, not being disrespectful to Crystal Palace but at a time when there's not very many good managers around he is one that I think during this season people of clubs with higher reputations will start serving for.

11:28Gregor Robertson: Gary, you know presuming they can keep hold of glass then what's possible for Palace this season obviously in the conference league I think he wouldn't go in mid-season I think that would be too difficult not only for compensation I think he's made clear that your contracts are honoured he made it clear on Friday even with Gaye you sign a contract no one puts a gun to your head when they ask you to sign a contract and therefore you stick to it I think his view is you stick to the contract but the last two summers where he's been, you know, he's wanted early deals and they haven't done it. And that's frustrated him to the point of, you know, I think he would deny that he threatened to walk out on the last day with the Gaye episode, but he wasn't happy.

12:13And I think, you know, listeners can read between lines of what I'm saying here. So I think, you know, get the NCC, he's going to have a much bigger job on his plate. He won the Europa League with Archer and Franklin. And I think he's going to... And he showed that he's such a good technician of a coach and also a good man-manager as well in terms of it. And he's managed... Martin says he's managed all the kind of issues and things so well. And he could have had quite a nasty summer because he had lost Eze, Gay Heating, new players coming in, late deals. and actually he's, you know, it's such an impressive start.

12:58Isn't it? I mean, you know, you go for the data, all you hear. We all know people in football clubs and, you know, they go for the small margins and they talk about every little detail. And then you come to this guy and you think, his team are quite simplistic in everything they do. They keep a lot of clean sheets, don't they? You know, they're decent at keeping a clean sheet. They offer threats when they go forward. They're a very tight unit when they lose the ball. They get players to intercept and win the ball back. They just do all the really good things that you need to have in a successful team.

13:32I mean, I laugh because I'm looking at Crystal Palace third in the league at the moment, and I don't think anybody wants to play them thinking, oh, I've got Palace next. It's amazing how it's worked so well for the football club. Under normal circumstances, it should be a chaotic carnage going on at the football club, and it's absolutely opposite. I mean, it's also kind of just the field because they had their own issues with the ownership in the summer. Dougie Friedman obviously has left, although he was helping out in the summer. They've got Matt Hobbs coming in and Dougie was instrumental in bringing some of these players to the club.

14:03So it'd be interesting how Matt Hobbs gets on and whether he can kind of have the same success as Dougie's had in sort of finding these unpolished gems. And I suppose Dougie shows that the players like, you know, like Uton, who came from the lower leagues, there are players there. You know, there are players there. You know, Moyes has been able to find him. how many clubs actually go and look down there. Tottenham looked at Warton, but they never go and did it. Do you know one of the big things, and Martin, you could bring in this as well, is that so often the big clubs who will rather let a player go, say Van Dyke went from Celtic to Southampton, and the big club hasn't gone in for them then, they go, well, maybe, well, pay 50 million.

14:42If he goes for 18, it's fine, but we might be prepared to pay 50 down the line, see how he does at Southampton. It feels like there's that logic going on at the very biggest clubs. There's a curiosity here with the sporting director model versus the manager model. The manager buys players for today because his job's on the line. The sporting director buys players for the future because he wants to affect the clubs. A lot of luck after the club's wage bill, it's finance, and also his reputation going forward. Well, I found him and I found him. So you do get that contrast. Newcastle feel like they've bought Premier League-ready players.

15:23Man United have done the same. That feels like it's a club that's under pressure and the manager's leading the signings. At Crystal Palace, there seems to have been a little bit more of a long-term view towards the signings, which is why they go, you know what, we can give Adam Warton a season or two to develop and come through. Will Hughes is this remarkable player. I keep thinking, it must be his time. it must be his time and he keeps going it was not his header that sets up the goal for the winner against Liverpool so it will help the fact that Adam Wharton comes into this culture but if you can look for a player to develop and give him two or three years because it's not easy to come into the Premier League and we've seen that with many players then you will find the rewards and we start patting people on the back for being a bit more intelligent with their recruitment Man Utd have spent £200 million on three forwards at the minute and that's a phenomenal amount of money will they gel they've changed their recruitment plan from let's go and pay£80 million for people in Holland who will take time but never settled but yeah a lot of things have to align for that but it helps if you've got a sporting director who's backed by the owner and is on board a bit with the manager I think

16:34Gregor Robertson: Tony you wrote about Florian Vert's struggles but talk about Liverpool more broadly so it's kind of obviously it's been a strange start to the season for them like perfect start five wins out of five but a lot of late goals a lot of kind of not managing to hold on to Leeds and then needing another late goal so was this kind of a case of the chickens coming home to roost or was this palace so good what do you think? I'm a Liverpool fan and I've talked about it a lot and I get criticism from Liverpool fans because sometimes I talk about the club that I'm watching and supporting and I have this idea that late goals and this is what great teams do they win the league because they they win games late on You know, you can't keep getting late goals in matches all of the time.

17:20They've conceded two goals four times in their eight games. That's telling you, defensively, they're quite fragile. They've had new players. Kerkhez is not the best left-back at Liverpool. Andy Robertson still is, OK? I thought his relationship with Gatpo was really good. Verts played out on the left wing on Saturday because they're trying to shoehorn Verts into a position because he struggled. Do I think he's not a great player? No, of course he's got... If you watch him at Bayer Leverkusen, he's a fantastic footballer. But he's struggling at Liverpool at the moment. He's finding it hard to make an impact.

17:54I saw him many a time in Germany. He'd make the run 30 yards beyond the midfield and get into forward attacking positions. He's getting caught on the ball here. He's getting caught with his little intricate passing. So, you know, I'm watching a guy that actually at the moment shouldn't be in the 11 at Liverpool. I think Liverpool were way more, you know, the stability of the Liverpool team was one of the reasons they won the league last year with Gravenberg, Soberslay, McAllister, how they perform. They've tried to fit a number 10 in that hasn't had the impact. That's without the other transfers.

18:29But I do feel like there was a lot wrong. And Gary, you know, said, you know, Palace, they were so much the better team for long periods of that game. and it wasn't a fluke that Liverpool got beat. Liverpool have been getting away with it and I think unless... And Arnie Slott has proved what a good manager he is, recognising, I need to make certain decisions or people can't come into this side just yet. I think he's got some big decisions to make about his starting line-up. And we might go, oh, it's one defeat and they've beaten Atletico. There's been signs and I think any die-hard Liverpool fan would have to admit being top of the league now is a little bit misleading for me.

19:10They haven't played nowhere near the standard that's required. And also, isn't it ironic that the team they've played against get a late goal against them? We might see a run of late goals against Liverpool now. You know, because this happens sometimes in football. Do you know one of the big strategies? Liverpool a few years ago beat Palace 7-0 away. You remember that game, 7-0? They then played West Brom at home and then they lost their next six home games. And I remember talking about the Liverpool 7-0 win. they flattered them they deserved to win and win comfortably but it flattered them because I didn't think Liverpool were that great of a side at that time they went on this run afterwards I'm not hoping that I'm just saying there are issues at Liverpool and Virts is one of the biggest ones

19:52Gregor Robertson: well huge huge result for Palace on a weekend can I come in there I'm desperate for Virts to do well as somebody who has loved the number 10s going back to Zico and this country Peter Beardsley and Teddy Sheringham the Premier League is increasingly about power and athleticism and the game I'm at yesterday it's three giants scoring headers Arnie Slott and Liverpool's recruitment team are trying to do something a bit different there were flashes in the game against Madrid and you've got to wait for Alexander Izac to get fully fit because he is absolutely he's a brilliant player and I think there's been something very clever done by Liverpool we think there are three top strikers in the world you cannot buy Olin Harland you cannot buy Kylian Mbappe but they have gone and bought Alexander Rizak there were moments in that game against Madrid where Florian Vert and Alexander Rizak showed memories to me of Peter Beers and Andy Cole their link of play was really really good we have to give Vert time to adjust to this league of giants trying to kill each other and hopefully we will we're in game 6 we're still out of September I didn't like the fact that he got put wide that's such an awful thing for a manager to do to go, yeah, you're a lovely flair player but let's stick you out wide because it's a bit rough in the middle.

21:13So hopefully that comes. Isak could possibly have had a penalty in the second half. I think when Lacroix nipped his foot just as he was about to shoot. Give them two time and they could be a very, very exciting partnership. There's a lot to gel in amongst the Liverpool forwards which will take time. One of the mistakes at the minute which I agree with Tony there is you're not necessarily playing your best full-backs because you're trying to, again, to take the team forward. The big problem at the minute is you've got a centre-half that is looking cumbersome and doesn't particularly look like he wants to be there.

21:44And again, as Tony said, Crystal Palace targeted that and got a lot of success from that. But I desperately want Virts to succeed. And I think once him and his act get moving together, that could be a very exciting partnership. Me also, Martin. It's not really just about, you know, Virts. I don't think he's going to foul. I just think you've got to use him and get him in the team. and playing the way that suits him. And he is the number 10 role, but he's going to find it tricky because at the moment he's really finding his feet. And there's some worrying signs that have happened with Virts in some games because he feels like they've carried him slightly.

22:22Once Alexander Izzak gets fit and his research for a piece we did in the game and the times for Saturday, watched Issa against Arsenal in the three games last season when Newcastle won the three games, the two Carabao Cup semifinals in the league game at St James' Park. And Issa gave nightmares to Gabriel and Saliba. He did everything to them. He was too strong in the air. He got behind them. He was too quick. He was too clever. Once that player re-emerges, I think that creates a lot more space for Virts to play in. But it's just like, give Issa a bit of time to get fit and then that can develop once Izzak gets fully on top of his game and starts getting his movement back and his speed back then I think we'll see Virts have more possibilities to dictate the game the way we both I think want to see

23:12Gregor Robertson: no alarm bells for Liverpool just yet but look I was at Brighton against Chelsea this weekend and there were moments in this game where I just kind of sometimes you find yourself sitting back and going my god this is good and we're talking about watching Brighton against one of the bigger teams in the Premier League Brentford victory against Manchester United this weekend I know it's a lowly Manchester United at the moment Sunderland start to the season Martin Leeds as well Bournemouth Bournemouth up to 5th with a late goal late equaliser I just wanted to quickly have a quick chat and see what you guys think about the strength of the league this season because in my view I think maybe it's never been stronger despite there being some big teams big clubs who are not what they once were The overall strength That was the kind of debate we had last season For a lot of the season Is this a good league Or have we just got a lot of really bad teams I think we still have some fallen giants But I think the league is really really good Is there a weak team Gregor?

24:11Gregor Robertson: Well clearly Wolves and West Ham had very bad starts I'm not sure they're really bad teams I think they can both be rejuvenated And we saw the start of that with Wolves Villa had a really bad start They've had a really good week So no I think Burnley even They showed spirit and although it wasn't a 5-1 defeat against Manchester City this weekend they've still showed spirit so I don't think there's a bad team in the league this season I thought the theme last season when the three teams who promoted and got relegated was that their recruitment wasn't great Ipswich's and Leicester's and Salaham's recruitment generally wasn't despite spending a lot of money despite spending a lot of money and maybe the recruitment of some of the teams this year has been better Sunderland certainly have bought a lot of players and they've done well and Burnley have brought some decent players and as you say, they've got a bit of a fight.

25:02Gregor Robertson: Martin, what do you think about Sunderland's start there? It's extraordinary the number of signings they've got and they've managed to make them gel and although they rode their luck in this game a little bit, it's still been a great start. Sorry, what I was going to say was that it's very early in the season. You're saying everybody looks great. This might be the first couple of days by the pool on holiday where everybody's been in the gym. and they're breathing in and then they're ignoring the whole day buffet and the free bar but by day 13, 14 they might not necessarily look the same so there is a bit of that I think the fact that what Gary said there the three teams that have come up for the last two seasons have been so bad that's a part of this conversation because these three teams that have come up thus far have been a bit more intelligent with their recruitment.

25:56They've been a bit more intelligent with their style of play. There's none of that kind of idealism of Russell Martin at Southampton. It's pragmatic from someone and it's really working very well. They were not frightened to dismantle a team that produced the supporters with one of their great memories in that dramatic playoff final victory at Wembley against Sheffield United. So now you have a new goalkeeper in Ruffs. You have Mookie Alien, Alderetti doing very well at centre-half. Interestingly, it still ends all the phase back in the team. Isidore is doing well and Chris Rigg has come in for the last two games.

26:36So the attacking side of it, Reggie Labris, who has done an extraordinary job. I did an interview with him last season. He said for the first two weeks as son and manager, he lived in a hotel, the Ramside Hotel and nobody there actually knew who he was that's how understated this bloke was but has a great CV and working with young players he was involved in that recruitment in the summer along with Florence Jusolfi and Spigen was there as well and they kept buying and buying and he spoke to people in the club they're like we've got so much leeway in terms of PSR I think their wage bill to get promoted was something like£16 million but thus far they've spent well they've added size they've had an experience, the squad feels much bigger.

27:24The game, I don't know if you saw the Notting Forest match, it was one of them, again, that somebody switches off at the far post for a free kick and you take advantage, you score the goal. Forest threw everything at them and you think we could be watching the game now and Nottingham Forest still would not have scored. Nottingham Forest have got a lot of issues, by the way. Inside that game is Elliot Anderson, who we've done an interview with, who I've known since he was young, a massive Newcastle fan. And he's playing like Brian Robson and he's prying, he's getting the ball off the centre-halves, he's getting off the goalkeeper, he's in the penalty area.

27:56He had 97 touches to his frustration. But Sonnen was so resolute that you just could not see them conceding the goal, which if you're a Sonnen fan, some stats, I can't find them in the house, I haven't got them. I think three or four of the last seasons they've been promoted around 2011, 2012, add them together, they've not got as many points from August and September as they have in this season alone so it's been a brilliant start from them they won't get carried away Le Briss won't get carried away as I said spent time with them quite dry good sense of humour but you know he wants his team to be competitive and compact no idealism about the way they play it's about results and thus far they're doing really well

28:39Gregor Robertson: that's a big part of it I think Tony as well I mean you know look at the way Brentford scored their three goals against Manchester United they're like very direct, one was a great break at the end, the others were long balls Thiago out muscling a defender, you know quick attacks, there's a lot of them, a bit long throwing you referenced them, we did a column earlier this season about it do you think that kind of, you know that way the kind of evolution of the game this season is kind of flipping a bit, is maybe giving teams a better chance as well I also would say, and it would be interesting to see what you boys think of this I think the level of coaching and management has gone to way beyond the past in what we've seen I've seen so many managers have big staffs they're working really hard on small data that gives them an opportunity for fine margins to win them games I think the coaching level's gone up and you know the Premier League pays the most money for players so the Premier League has wasted lots over the years but now you're getting coaches that are coming in who are getting big wages from leaving other leagues whether it's France, Italy or wherever the Netherlands they come in and they're way more info based and also they can communicate really well I think if you go for all the teams I mean when you see Aston Villa fifth from bottom we all know Unai Emery is a really good manager okay he's found himself in fifth from bottom because the top end of the club they found themselves subject to financial fair play which has caused them problems as in they lose certain players and they can't go after ones they might want and they're the difference in managers, what they can do.

30:13And I think we've seen coaches, and we've mentioned before, look at why. We're talking about how many teams are doing well. Bournemouth are doing the same again as they did last year. They go and get results under a good manager with a structure. Brighton can go to Chelsea and get results. It's not just a one-off in 10 seasons. They've caused Chelsea problems for a good few seasons. So I just think you've got to give kudos to management is really hard. You can lose your job so easily. You know, after six, seven, eight, ten games, you can lose your job. But if you look at teams that have looked disorganised, and I know we're going to talk about them a bit later, as Manchester United, you know, Amarim feels he's way behind a lot of the other coaches for me of what we're seeing, of the tactics that teams are using.

30:58Keith Andrews is an okay, supposedly just a set-piece, you know, coach at Brentford. He's obviously got a lot more than that, and Brentford know that better than we do. Well, he has his team playing

31:09Gregor Robertson: at strengths I think that's the thing that really emerged from this game you can talk about it with Manchester United if you like now what did you make of Brighton because obviously they've dropped a couple of late points this season against Fulham and Spurs that's four points I mean they're on eight points so I mean and they had that problem sort of last season well at times of not seeing games out what did you make of them Gregor? I mean the first half you have to say Chelsea were really really good the sending off to Trevo Chalaba just after half time changed the game you know dramatically but another reason for having this discussion is that they turned to the bench and it had enormous effect Danny Wilbeck scored two of the goals Maxime de Kuiper scored the other Weaver who came on got an assist Gruda who came on got an assist that's the other thing the strength of every team's squad even at Brighton we know about their recruitment model but everywhere you look there is such strength in depth as well I just feel like there's possibly a bit of a levelling up happening here I don't know, maybe I'm taking it too far, what do you think?

32:13Well I go back to Hunsler's done a hell of a job really since he's come to Brighton hasn't he? He came in at the job and we were there last season a couple of times Gregor Again a manager can make changes, have choice but there are so many good ones at the moment Look there's always going to be someone losing a job if you're laying bottom of the league or you're a big club that's struggling at the wrong end of the table you can lose your job but I just think generally the Premier League has a massive advantage with finance in regards to all levels whether it's players transfers you can bring in has such a big advantage and now you've seen coaches come in that have raised the game again or raised the bar of the standard at Premier League clubs and the Premier League clubs have got promoted kudos to them because they've spent big but Daniel Farker has learnt a lot for me from the last time he was in the Premier League and really struggled he's talking about physicality Yeah, he changed the idea of Leeds.

33:09So, fair play to them. Sorry, with regards to Daniel Fargo, I've been in a few interviews with him when he spoke about the Norwich team. I think he's a good bloke. I think he's very honest. I do like the way his teams play football. But he's addressed that in the nicest way possible when he said, those Norwich teams, he said those players that we took to promotion had never played in the Premier League before we got promotion and they never played again after we got relegated. So he took a bunch of players that were not of that standard. They didn't invest, they went back down. But it's his reputation that suffers.

33:43And it's kind of, there was that huge rumour in the summer, would Mourinho come in? Do you remember that? And it was quite disrespectful to Farga. He would have liked, I think, more investment in the front part of his team this summer. He lost Solomon, who was brilliant for them last season. But they may have made two very clever signings from inside the game. Calvert-Lewin, if he's fit, is a great centre-forward. and he missed a couple of chances the weekend. And Sean Longstaff, who has 200 games of experience in Newcastle, creates chances on Saturday, creates the goal, scores a goal, and leads fans to say, we got this player for 12 million.

34:20Sometimes those bargains are within the domestic game if you're clever with your recruitment. And it will depend upon keeping Calvert-Lewin fit, but he looks strong, he looks good. Those two players stay fit, that gives them a great chance of staying overseas. season.

34:34Gregor Robertson: Okay, loads more to come after the break. We'll be discussing that thriller at St James' Park, the change in the dugout at West Ham United, and a big week in store for Enzo Maresca and Chelsea. Join us after the break.

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36:59Gregor Robertson: Martin a tough one to take for the Geordies very tough indeed but you reading your match reporting at times you know you also kind of said this was a big statement for Arsenal as well given the results there in the past and their start to the season no no this feels like a huge moment for Arsenal I think they've been quite unfair the way they've been picked at this season to say they're not ready for the title I looked at the strength and then I thought they're doing fine. They'd only conceded two goals before they went to St. James' Park yesterday. Two moments stick out with reference to that.

37:37One is when there was the fly-on-the-wall video and Arsenal lost at St. James' Park and Arteta went through his players and talked about the mental toughness to come somewhere like here and get a result because they didn't have it. There was then a moment in the semi-final last season at St. James' Park which didn't get caught on camera, it was right in front of the press box, where Sandro Tsunali came at the Martin Odegaard really, really hard, probably left a little bit in it, and hurt. You know, you get kicked on the foot by a professional footballer, and it was right in front of us, and Odegaard was down.

38:13And Arteta came over and kind of dragged him by the hand to get up, you know, get up, don't show them you're hurt, don't show them you're hurt. Odegaard's going, yeah, but I am hurt, I am, I can't even feel my foot. The crowd's going wild. Arteta is looking for something more than just you're a brilliant player it's like right you've got to stand up to this place yesterday whatever the goals came whether it was from a penalty that didn't get allowed whether it was the 84th minute whether it was the 96th minute Arsenal deserved to get something from that game they probably deserved to win in contrast to say perhaps what I've just said about Nottingham Forest could still be playing against Sunderland And Arsenal have added, they've got more weapons now.

38:54So yes, they can score from a throw-in, which sometimes I don't like. Yes, they can score from corners, which sometimes I don't like. But they've also got Odegaard and Declan Rice and Saka and Martinelli. So if you want to play them at football, they'll come and have a game with you. But if you want to make it physical, they'll have a game with you. And yesterday was the first time I think I've watched them come to St. James Park. The crowd, the atmosphere is at St. James Park this season for Barcelona, for Liverpool, and for Arsenal have been brilliant. sometimes there can be a bit of hype about the atmosphere these have been absolutely red roguest occasions on Tyneside and Arsenal losing 1-0 and the crowd's going bananas and they stood up to it and Arted which I've mentioned in the match report did like a windmill with his fists when he equalised to Mourinho and you thought that's it and then when they scored the winning goal he just turned to his bench and was engulfed by as Tony said this huge backroom staff because they know how big a moment that is because you've come to Tyneside, you've took them on, you've won it late, you've showed great spirit.

39:57Gabriel's had this battle with Nick Valtemar, was really weak for the goal, but then maybe he could have had a yellow card for the hand in the forward's face. The one thing I would say about Gabriel is he's a bit toveled without Dean when Saliba's not next to him because in that first half he struggled. Saliba comes on at half-time and the Arsenal defensive shape and how strong it was changed a great deal at that time. Newcastle didn't create a great deal in the second half to trouble them. Newcastle is a different story and it's with Arsenal. I think we're talking about a team that can go all the way this season if they want to.

40:34The squad's got bigger. I'm still not 100 % convinced of the quality of Xhakares, but what he did, he took the physicality of Sven Bottmann and Malik Chow. He has the fight with them too. that means the two centre-halves are occupied. It gives a bit more space for the other players around him in which to play. Zubimendi, who I thought was a great play anyway, comes in and he was really good yesterday. But English football is such that, yeah, he's a sitting player, he's going to be a Rodri. In the second half, he's in the Newcastle penalty area, he's doing crosses, he's trying to score goals. It's like, you come to this country, the football is so chaotic, you're going to have to do a little bit more than that.

41:11Might be to the detriment of the English team, but in terms of entertainment value, that game yesterday had everything

41:16Gregor Robertson: Gary do you agree Martin's saying that this was a big statement and he feels that Arsenal can go all the way despite the Philcina narrative at the start of the season that they've been handbrake on not creative enough a bit like risk averse do you see that differently? I think over time Mikael has been risk averse I think it's hard for him to kind of deny that because he has been over the last few years the team evolved to become a bit more risk averse from a few seasons ago but I thought when he brought an Odegaard yesterday he kind of he went for it really and and uh and maybe maybe it was a criticism that he'd had in previous weeks maybe it was an overreaction to some of the criticisms against Man City or maybe he just realized he actually after Liverpool was losing he actually needs to make that statement and they need to make a statement to themselves more than anything so um I thought it was a really important win um I still think he he has to work out about what his best line-up is.

42:14I'm still not playing Trossard. I think most Arsenal fans probably want more Trossard than the team and they'd want a slightly different balance to it. I think it's interesting how he's... Martin was talking about the physical players. He's pretty much played Califuri all the games over Marles, Lewis Skelly. I mean, Lewis Skelly wasn't a left-back. I mean, people have to remember he was a midfield player who got converted. But he's got an England squad. And you go to St James' Park a bit of a physical game. And he's played him. timber right back over white. These are, these are, they're all, you know, they're all physical players.

42:46These are, these are big boys. Declan's a tall guy, you know, even when Haberts plays, he's not short and he's, he's buckled up a little bit. So the only real midget is probably, is probably Trossard. Sorry. He's one of the few players actually shorter than me in the mix zone up.

43:07Sorry, Gary's made an interesting point there by hate. Eddie Howe was with us and he said when they signed Jacob Ramsey they were surprised at how tall he was they were going bloody hell you're tall he went oh me I'm 6 foot 1 and then on another video it shows you Graeme Jones and Jason Tindall the two backroom staff when they've just signed Malik Chow who's the 6 foot 4 centre they're both banging him on the chest and going oh you're a big lad aren't you you're a big lad when you're watching that handshake at the start of Premier League games now it's giant, meet him giant, meet him giant and it's interesting what Gary said there, I think there is a deeper conversation about the pragmatic approach of Pep Guardiola and Mick Olautena from two coaches that were probably idealistic four or five years ago and it was all fluid football and false tense either they've, you know, it's not reinventing the wheel but they've taken English football back to the past or they've just gone, the game has evolved in here for the physicality so teams that are going to come up are going to give us a real battle so we need bigger players to combat this and as I said before the three goals yesterday in a game of football with two teams that probably cost well over a billion pounds is by three headed goals from CrossFit I think Mikel probably reacted to the 4-1 defeat a few years ago I think you both remember the game for the title and they sort of had Rob Holding in the back fell apart and he reacted to that game where they were just beaten up basically and I remember quite from Lehman many years ago in the Invincible team he said they'd be in the tunnel and opposing teams to look across and just look at Lauren, you know, Campbell, Lehman, they're all physical.

44:44I mean, you both played, you know. I'm going to go nostalgic here. Plan World Cup, 1990, Jack Cholten is saying, we're watching the Cameroon play. And he went, we don't want to get them. We can't get them. They'll beat us. They're more physical than us. And then they played England. And England just about got through, didn't they, against them? It was an amazing game. I think Platt scores a goal, but just that the Cameroon was so big and strong. And that was what the Ireland team was. And I've played against teams that are really physical and strong. Yeah, of course, it does have an impression on you.

45:22But what I do think was really interesting out of that game, and obviously Martin's there live, so that helps, is that I even feel like referees going a bit more lenient now because we had a lot of controversial decisions, didn't we, in the game, Martin? but they defended the more physical. When Pope comes out and gets a slight touch and Jokeres goes down, you get the sense that main managers are also thinking, do you know what, we might get a little bit more get away with the intricacies of football, of fouls, you know? The first 10 minutes, whether it carries across the TV, the tackles were flying in.

45:59And the tackles were flying in a lot from the castle place because we're right next to the dugout. So you watch Norteta. goes from fury to bemusement because it's like, right, this is how it's going to be. You can get away with this stuff. Calafiore, who's been booked, tugs on the shirt of Dan Byrne to the point where it's coming out of his back by about two foot. And he has a yellow card at that point. It's not even a foul. Within about five minutes, it's one of them where Artest nearly takes Calafiore off before he gets a second yellow. But the way that game went, the player that he brings on is Mikel Mourinho.

46:31So he brings him on within a quarter of an hour. he scores this brilliant glance at him at the far post to beat Nick Pope but yeah the physicality of the game so much maybe it's because the game's so fast maybe it's because the players are so huge but there seemed a lot of challenges that maybe a year or two ago would have got called in the robustness of the match you know the referee was just waving the game on

46:56Gregor Robertson: Martin just finally on this game then you wrote before the game about where are Newcastle going to get the goals from we've spoken about Isak's departure and the sort of holding team that left up front this was a big moment for Nick Voltemada as well I mean he's obviously got a couple of goals but what do you think of his sort of all-round play as well he feels like he has to get up to speed a little bit maybe yeah the first game he played against Wolves we're watching Eddie Howe and Tyndall urging him to move further forward in the pitch right so he's natural inclination as a 10 is to drop 10-15 yards away from the centre-halves you're going to have to engage them now is the message in the press conference on Friday with Eddie Howe he went look we don't play with the number 10 which Newcastle don't so they're going to have to try and alter his game to be more physical to be on that last man the visa injury which is in the piece that you referenced there has been huge because his stats when we went through them from last season were very very similar aside the dribbles to Alexander Izak that's the direct replacement that Unicast were looking for there's a serious injury to Tino Liveramento who went off on a stretch we don't know how bad that is yet that will be a blow because he's been very good that impacts the style so Dan Burns playing as a left back yesterday because the manager doesn't want to drop Sven Botman who is another left side of centre half but that curtails the natural instinct of Anthony Gordon because he's got to cover Dan Burns against Saka Joe Linton's sitting a little bit deeper.

48:31So the team still feels like it's in a transitionary period. It's one win from six in the Premier League heading towards a Champions League game in Brussels on Wednesday night. I think there will start to be a bit of a cause for concern because it's not like Newcastle are missing loads of chances at the minute. They're not creating them. Somehow you're going to have to find the blend of Alanga, Walter Marder and Anthony Gordon at the same time you're going to have to do something how many centre-halves they're going to play because it does impact what they do going forward a massive match on Sunday to come against Nottingham Forest who've won none under five under Postacoglu and Eddie Howe's got one winning six in the Premier League so that is potentially a really big game

49:20Gregor Robertson: Before a ball was kicked Gary Graham Potter was dismissed by West Ham United with Nuno Espirito Santo replacing him Potter took charge of 25 matches at West Ham after being appointed in January won only 6 finished 14th last season but only 1 win this season West Ham said they believe a change is necessary in order to help improve the team's position in the Premier League table as soon as possible probably because of all the things we've just been speaking about we recognise this year that there's not really any standout team that's going to be propping up the table so it could be a dangerous season for them Gary if they this is why they've made the change early basically when they had Lopatigli there he kind of lasted a little bit longer because there were three teams you can pretty much bank on to kind of go down but yeah I think you look at it now and you think that they could suddenly be a gap if you don't make the change and also it's just not worked out and it's not I mean there'd be plenty of people myself included said he was the wrong man for them and it was a wrong club for him.

50:24Why did you say that? Wrong club for him because he'd been out of the game nearly two years he turned down Ajax, he flirted with Leicester, there were good reasons to go to Leicester. West Ham's not an easy club to go and manage because you have to manage up as well as down and David Moyes is very good at doing that and I think you have to be a certain type of guy to do that. I think also the benefit he had at Brighton was Bloom's modelling of players and other sorts of things. He doesn't get at West Ham. And for them, I think they needed probably a little bit more of a... Also, his teams don't score goals.

51:03Generally, they didn't do at Brighton, so that's a big problem. And I think for them, they probably needed a slightly different manager, really. So, I mean, they had the ideal manager in David Moyes. I mean, I know it went wrong in the last six months, but you could argue there are reasons why it was going to go wrong in the last six months. So is Nuno the right manager? Needs must Yeah I think he's going to be pragmatic like Martin says and he's going to make them into a team that's going to be difficult to beat and play on the counter attack Does that not potentially open up all the same sort of issues among the fan base about wanting to see something more?

51:38I think it does down the line but probably in the short term it means we just need to make sure we stay up really so the thing is they actually I mean they made the decision last week after Palace it was pretty much then he was dead man walking but you look at it you say what are the choices and it's probably the same for Man United what are the choices is Bilic I mean there's Nuno and like Martin was saying well you could go for Glasner but Glasner he's not going to go and he's you know he's not going to he's not going to go anywhere I don't think mid-season so what are the choices really for any Premier League club now that's changing you've got people like Sean Dyche on the sidelines people like that but where are the choices?

52:21Someone unknown

52:22Gregor Robertson: or someone unknown and it's a risk Tony what do you make of the appointment? No no obviously you look at Tottenham and you think it didn't work out there then you look at Nottingham Forest and it was brilliant for him and he had a style of play and as Martin has said he recruited the club very well people like Anderson coming into the football club and doing well. You know, Chris Wood fitted their style. Hudson Adoy, Alanga. Now, all these type of players that had come in and done brilliantly well. That's without even mentioning the back four, the goalkeeper. They said in lots of positions, they got right.

52:57Now, it's going to be a massive challenge at West Ham because there's a different type of... They don't get it right. No, but not in Forest. Whatever we say about Marinakis is that he brought lots of players and it'll come from different parts of the world and really aggressive. So he could change because he brought so many, he could change quite often. If the manager needed more players, he will give them. And I think it's a really interesting one, but it is going back to what Gary said, to a far more pragmatic style and counter-attacking. Do West Ham have that player? Well, I think that suits someone like Boeing.

53:34But generally, it's going to be a challenge for him because West Ham are a club that's in disarray, not just on the pitch, upstairs as well. and they don't have a leader like Marinakos who would demand this to happen. They've been taking a back seat by... I couldn't get Graham Potter at all and I'd done a piece on this a long time ago about I didn't get... And it's nothing against Graham, but I just didn't see a fit there at all. And he has, as Gary's alluded to, is he has very much a possession-based style with not much punch. It's about keeping the ball and they didn't even keep the ball very well.

54:13but there wasn't much of a punch in their counter attack if they didn't have Bowen in any of the seasons he was there they'd have gone down go ahead Tony which I agree with about the game changed and it's all scientific but we come back to Toursome has a terrible recruitment the fans turn on the board what do the board do? They sack the manager because it gets the grief off them in the short term. I'm just looking through the managers here. They've gone from Billich to Moyes to Pellegrini, then back to Moyes, then to Lopetegu, then to Potter, then to Nuno. And I don't know if there's anything at all that connects that group of managers in terms of style or personality or anything.

55:02I was at West Ham's first game of the season against Sonnen and straight away, I think I wrote the piece that he's in trouble here because they were awful. You're relying on Callum Wilson, who was a second or third choice at Newcastle last season. There was a free transfer coming on. You're relying on Ward-Prowse, who was a great player, but looks like his legs are going. The keeper was terrible. The three centre-halves couldn't command anything at all. So I thought he was in trouble. That stadium doesn't help. And the vastness of that stadium, and now you're bringing Nuno, who will say, sorry, in terms of style, he's a change.

55:37Graham Potter, we want the ball. Nuno we don't want the ball so you've gone from one style to another style you're going to say the player's right everything the previous manager said rip that up we're starting again from scratch because there's no coherent strategy inside this football club we're just making it up as we go along Nuno's style will not sit well with the West Ham supporters I'll tell you that now the recruitment which again Tony's mentioned to find Alanga, Anson, Gibbs-White and Hudson-Odoi which meant you could sit really deep and play with superb speed on the counter-attacks and made the counter-attack more interesting than it sometimes is, will be very hard to do it at West Ham I see this end am I the proper to do this morning in West Ham stadium, that is empty because it's 1-0 or 0-0 after 85 minutes and they're doing nothing at all going forward with the ball I'm not sure this is a great fit it strikes me very much as a panic move and it'd be interesting to see where West Ham go through it OK.

56:38Gregor Robertson: Just finally, another manager, maybe Tony, who's starting to come under a little bit of pressure is Enzo Maresca after another defeat. It's not been a good month for Chelsea at all. Big week ahead. Got Benfica and the return of Jose Mourinho on Tuesday in the Champions League. And then Liverpool on Saturday. He doesn't want to have another bad week, does he? I can't make out Chelsea. Of all the teams that are a bit of an enigma, it's Chelsea because I've seen them be brilliant. They were brilliant in the first half of this game. Yeah, exactly. Well, I was about to say, first 45 minutes on the weekend.

57:11But if you consider that was the team that beat PSG 3-0 in the World Club Championship. And I've seen them, last year I was at Crystal Palace. I think you were with me, Gregor. I think it was you. But anyway, Chelsea played there. And Chelsea, for 75 minutes, were great in the game. It was 1-0 to Chelsea. Then they conceded a late goal. And from that moment on, they looked like losing against Palace last season. And I've seen Chelsea do this so often where they play for large periods either very well or well enough to get a result. And somehow they find a way of giving away points. And I think that's a problem for Maresca.

57:48But he has made some very strange substitutions because, you know, Manchester United away, seeing Neto come off. And people talked about Karl Palme. I was like, what is the one person you want to keep on when you're with 10 men is a netto that's going to stretch, keep the ball and take the ball down the pitch and still be a threat. He's taken him off twice when they've gone down to 10 men. And that will rile Chelsea fans. And Chelsea fans have been spoiled. I've got two sons and I have to keep reminding them that I played in a really bad Chelsea team or very mediocre, OK? And they've been spoiled with the Chelsea teams they've supported because it's completely different.

58:25So there is this entitlement by Chelsea fans of expecting Champions League football, challenging to win things, the money that they've spent.

58:33Gregor Robertson: Well, yeah, I was just going to say they should probably expect that when you spend£1.5 billion. Yeah, I know. But the fact of the matter is, on the day, Chelsea are a really good side. It's just that they don't have them days that often for not... Well, I say hardly ever for 90 minutes. Two things, Greg. Sorry, can I just jump in? Tony, you watch a lot of Chelsea. Is he the right manager? Is he the right manager? That's a really divided opinion at the bridge. How about inside your house? Sorry. How about inside your house, Tony? Divided opinion. No, my house would be typical of the view of Chelsea fans is that if they lose a game, they want him out.

59:12Gregor Robertson: And if they win a game, they'll stay with him. Ah, more than should I be, Tom. Yeah, exactly. So I personally think he's got a lot to prove because when you have so much being given to you as a manager, indulging in so many transfers, that you have to find a way at work. When you look at Cole Palmer and you look at Neto and you look at Pedro down the middle, you think, this is a dangerous team. You've got Fernandes and Calcedo in midfield. I think they're lacking at the heart of the defence, but generally they have enough to go and win games. And I think he's got to answer them questions because there's no way if they don't make Champions League probably it'd be in the job next year.

59:48Quiggle, you're doing the game this week, and you did the game Saturday. A, was there anything he could have done differently on Saturday once they went down to 10 men? Because some teams are very good with 10 men, aren't they? Let's be honest. Arsenal in the past have been very good at sort of reshaping themselves. You need to look at the Man City game last year.

1:00:06Gregor Robertson: I slightly disagree with this whole idea that he's made some really defensive substitutions. I think that's what you're supposed to do when you go down to 10 men. What, do you go five in the back and then no one up front? They had someone up front They just didn't have Metal You never created it I understand But I think that's a bit harsh I think actually These bigger issues When they went down To 10 men on Saturday He had two 19 year olds Played centre half He brought in Josh Achenpong Ahead of Barry O'Shealy Because he's not good enough Like I still think The thing they lack And I wrote about this morning Is some leaders Some people who know How to see out a game like that Who loved it Who've done it before Like they just find no room There's just this really Like arrogant blind spot and their whole recruitment model of just completely overlooking anyone who's over the age of like 23.

1:00:52Gregor Robertson: So, you know, I think Tosin's turned 28 last week and he's their oldest player. And they've got a few 27-year-olds. I would agree with you on that, Gregor. I don't think that's a valid point. So I think he'll always be trying to find leadership that is not there. And you won't want to be placing Jose who would be quite happy to stick the 19th street. Indeed, this will be a fascinating one. Anyway, listen, it'll be box office on Tuesday, I'm sure. Mourinho is always box office. And we will be back on Thursday to review that and all the midweek European action. I hope to see you then.

1:01:43from Times Radio. From boom to bust, the business tells you the inside story. From the high street to the boardroom, we'll bring you unparalleled insights. We'll talk to unicorns, market movers and city CEOs. Join us every Thursday. Search for The Business from The Times on your podcast app. You're the business. No, Heather, you're the business. No. This is the business. The Business is sponsored by PwC. That new thing? Yeah, we've got it. The Drop by GNC, bringing you all the newness that matters handpicked by the pros who actually know what's up and what's proven to work we keep you on top of the trends and dialed into what's next whether you're crushing it at the gym leveling up your game or thriving every day the drop by GNC is where the latest solutions in health and wellness land first non-stop innovation and fresh finds daily explore what's new and what's next on the drop by GNC