Arsenal supreme, United stutter, Spurs struggle

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1:07Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Three wins, nine points and potential title rivals put back in their place. It's been a very strong start to the season for champions Arsenal. On today's show we'll analyse their win against Chelsea, look at victories for Liverpool and Manchester City and frustrating draws for Manchester United, Tottenham and Aston Villa. We'll also discuss Crystal Palace's thrilling win at Fulham and look at the rest of the action and the week ahead. I'm Tom Clark and joining me today we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd.

1:40The football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Tottenham, it's Tom Allnut. And the former footballer, turned journalist Gregor Robertson is alongside me as usual, wearing his jacket once again. The tough man from north of this great nation. Easy for you to see. So cold. So cold in the studio that it has to wear a jacket. But let's talk about the big game at the weekend. And speaking of Alison Rudd, these are her wonderful words from the Emirates. Talking about Arsenal's victory, you said, built on reputation and self-belief, on not panicking when a goal down, on refusing to be inhibited by the opposition's fated attacking threat, which looked like it might run riot after taking an early lead.

2:21If Mikel Arteta is right that they can get better, than a second successive Premier League title would appear to be a formality. Pack it up and go home then. Jobs are good. What impressed you so much about Arsenal's win? The backdrop to it. Sometimes the build-up to a game can affect the game. This is the first sexy game of the season. Yep. And the build-up had been... Tell that to Greg at Coventry Hull last weekend. Anyway, carry on. Well, it was. But strangely, given that they are the defending champions, I felt that the build-up to the game was one of, Oh dear, Arsenal haven't really done that well in the transfer window.

2:57And look at Chelsea. You know, they got Morgan Rodgers. They weren't, you know, they were pleased to go in with a big bid. Are Arsenal still too small-minded when it comes to spending money? They've bolstered the team defensively, but attacking-wise, they look, if anything, they have fewer options than they did last season. Is that the best way to defend your title? Weren't they going for it? and so that I felt could have made somehow defensive approach to the game an inhibited approach to the game and certainly after 77 seconds when Chelsea score a goal you think well you know more it's more who else is it going to be it's going to be Morgan Rodgers the player they wanted you know he costs 117 million and he scores after 117 seconds it feels like the gods are having a bit of a laugh and the fact that they didn't allow it to happen as a response to that early goal, they were on the front foot, they were aggressive, an absolutely brilliant response to A, the build-up and B, the very early goal they conceded.

3:59And you kind of think that sort of attitude, that ability to lift your game in a flash, I felt is what you earn from having finally won the title, having waited, you know, been runners-up three years on the trot, which is draining and can play havoc with your mentality. And they strutted and played like a team that believe, as Arteta said afterwards, this match was an indicator that they will be better than they were last season. Tom and Gregor, what do we make of Alisson's assessment there? Yeah, I mean, I was very impressed with Arsenal, absolutely. But like Chelsea more than played their part in the game, I thought, like they really threw Arsenal on the back foot in those first, well, that was only two minutes, but there was a a couple of instances not just I think Saliba was jumped sorry Gabriel was out jumped in the build up to the goal doesn't happen he's kind of pinned in the box Declan Rice was charged down they were really full kind of full kind of high press early doors and were you saw they were going to take the game to Arsenal and Alton's right Arsenal responded brilliantly but it made for a thrilling game in the first half proper end to end both teams and Neto hit the post as well I've just popped into my head as well just for a half time as well no there were moments really great there were moments in that the one where Morgan Rodgers cutting on his right foot and you think the channel to the far post was there and he didn't direct it properly and he saw his reaction afterwards his head in his hands Cole Palmer had one where he kind of come on his left foot and it was a bobbler that Raya did well to hold with Pedro kind of closing it down a few balls across the box they had openings without clear like you know brilliant chances but the most impressive bit for me was Arsenal's approach to the second half actually the way they from the start of the second half until about 15 minutes to go.

5:45Initially, they really kind of stamped their authority in the game, got the second goal, which was a thing of beauty, and then controlled it. And the last 15 minutes, probably not helped by the fact that Odegaard went off, that Havertz went off, a couple of other substitutions. They lost that control a little bit and Chelsea were pushing it towards the end. But that period, I think you saw why Arsenal are the best team in the country. I think it was a really good game as well. I mean, it was end-to-end, two really exciting teams. I actually think, you know, we talked a lot about Arsenal, you know, not being entertaining and I thought in this game they played well.

6:22You know, I mean, what a lovely goal that was. That early goal helped though. Yeah, but I mean, I guess, you know, the equalised at 1-1 fairly quickly, you know, and I thought, I mean, I thought the lovely dummy for Havertz for the Odegaard goal was a lovely move. And I mean, it's almost like a bit of a throwback Arsenal team at the moment. Like, you know, OK, they didn't, you know, do all the flashy business that loads of other teams did, but what they have done, and they kind of look guys, let's bring back the team that was two years ago. Like Odegaard playing, Brittany Havertz playing well, even Ben White, you know, that kind of reunion of this kind of right side that we know works so well is really flourishing at the moment.

6:52I mean, in a way, it was sort of a game that maybe confirmed our kind of early season suspicions, which I think is that Chelsea are probably, you know, the deadliest attack maybe in the division, but ultimately they're not kind of complete yet. Like the midfield can be bypassed. The fact they finished with two fullbacks in there, I think, you know, is symptomatic of their issues. And at the back as well, they can be got at, you know, and Arsenal, I never thought Chelsea were going to score in the last 15-20 minutes and maybe that's just because we're all now ingrained in this idea that Arsenal don't concede goals you are genuinely shocked when Arsenal concede a goal and even when they're playing against Parma and Gio Pedro and Rodgers and they're under the caution in the last 20 minutes I thought actually they're going to see this out I'll come on to some of those points about Chelsea but just back to Arsenal Kai Havertz, a fascinating start to the season really energetic at Aston Villa as well we talked about it on the previous pod how he was so important that it didn't come off in that game, Gregor.

7:40In this game, I'm sat there thinking, is Victor Jokeres' most significant contribution to Arsenal being making all their fans realise how good Kai Havertz is? Do you think? Because he was terrific, wasn't he, Alisson, in this game? And you realise why the way Mikhail Aheta plays, he is the perfect person to lead the line, even though he's not really leading the line. I would say as well, I love the fact that the dummy for the goal came after, in the first half, he did a little flick that messed up what would have been a lovely move. And then he learned, actually, don't touch the ball. That's a much better idea.

8:15How good do we think Kai Havertz is? Or do we think it's more that in this team, he's just so vital to the way they play? I've always liked him, even when people were criticising him and saying he's not enough for Arsenal. I still felt he was the perfect player for them. It's about understanding what your teammates are going to do and what that attacking triumvirate down the right will do. But if you watch him carefully, he's really cerebral. He's always thinking about where he needs to run, where the ball might come, what he might need to do. And his decision to shoot for his goal was split-second perfect because Martinez wasn't expecting it.

8:54Should save it, though? Any goalkeeper at the near post should save. That's the rule of goalkeeping. So, yes, he'll be disappointed with that, as they say. But, I mean, let's praise the finish and the decision to shoot when he shot. I think the kind of chemistry with the players around him is really important for Havertz because he is, as Alisson says, he's someone who's kind of, he works off other players' kind of moves or instincts. And, you know, there's some interesting stats here. There's a game about the fact that, you know, since I think the last, I think before the start of the season, Odegaard, Saka and Havertz had started once since December 2024 together.

9:29And the last time they kind of all stayed fit together was 23-24 and Arsenal scored 91 goals that season, which is a club record so like we all kind of know that that was Mikel Arteta's favoured forward line or certainly you know three quarters of it it's about if they stay fit and if Odegaard's in this form because Odegaard my goodness it's a blind the one thing is I think with Havertz and I don't want to be a revisionist because he has these games where he's brilliant and like he looks very silky and everything looks perfect when he's confident and he's sort of you know sharp you do have games where he just almost doesn't look interested and I don't think that's just a perception thing like he can just be offside a lot and he can give the ball away a lot and you think where's the punch where's the thrust Are those the big games do you think or are those the whole city at home because in those games surely you just play Jokeres and try and win 4-0 Yeah but I also think the one thing he doesn't give you is like in this game for example I thought like Arsenal win these games always such fine margins and it kind of goes against probably what I was saying the fact that I never really thought Chelsea were going to score but there's always a chance there's always a thing in the last minute long ball or whatever if you have someone who can just give you that kind of speed and pace on the break.

10:36You're a little bit more kind of, instead of everything being held up and everything in front of you, I think Arsenal would suddenly have another option where they go and win this game 3-1, you know, and you don't have to have that kind of margin for error. That's the only thing I think with Havertz. Like, he's a lovely team player. He presses brilliantly, brings other people into play. Yes, he's a, you know, I mean, he's got midfield qualities because, you know, he can play that position. Like, he's a lovely all-round footballer. But as a general sort of ruthless kind of striker, I still think Arsenal will have some games this season that are tighter than they need to be.

11:03And that is partly because is they don't have that option up front. It's not just about centre forward. I think it's all around. Like, if they have someone who's a little bit more, let's hit you on the counter-attack and this guy's just going to run and score, then I think that does give them an option they don't have at the moment. No, you're not fond of him. See, I'm really fond of him. I feel like we've watched him grow up. Fond is a good word for him. We've watched him grow up because when he first joined Chelsea, he was really, really shy and gave the impression that he didn't really like football that much.

11:29And he liked animals and donkeys and playing the piano. But maybe that's where the timidness comes from, that we all think he's not this kind of player that Tom maybe thinks he is with the elbows and ready to battle. He is. I'm sorry. I totally disagree. I'm saying that's what we think it is. I agree with you. I think he has got that in his game. I don't think people think that anymore. He's nasty. He loves all that stuff. I appreciate that there was that perception, but I think that's gone because he's had some proper duels with people. He has got the elbows. He can't bear his teeth. I know he doesn't look it because he moves elegantly and stuff but he's got that side to him so I don't think that's a problem I think what Tom said is true about and it's not just his fault I mean Saka is quick Tolis is quick but none of them are searingly quick and that would be an extra sort of gear to Arsenal's play and we saw a game from Giocharez's cameo he's not the answer to anything yeah yeah the Gregor Robertson Victor Giocharez campaign I just don't want to swing sorry I just don't want to swing from one end of the spectrum to another there will be a game in November or something where Arsenal draw 1-1 Haberts is offside seven times and everyone will say Arsenal should have signed a goalscorer so I don't think just because he has a brilliant game and they win 2-1 against Chelsea we shouldn't be saying he is the best thing since last break I think there's a middle ground Clip it up there you go Jonathan Clip it up save it Just before we move on to Chelsea just a final thought on Arsenal and all the flux and all the change and everything we see in football and this crazy window I'm sat here and quite enjoying the fact that we're sat here talking about Ben White and Saka Odegaard Kai Havertz I think before we started I think Esri Konza might be the most brilliantly boring signing any top club has ever made and just gone, yep, 50 million.

13:05He's really good. He can play at centre-back or right-back. Do we think, do we like this idea that we're talking about Arsenal, the champions, and it's actually just the same stuff we've seen before, but we get to revel in it again anew? Or actually, do you think that might come back to bite them that a lack of something fresh? Yeah. Again, Tom's probably right. We probably will have this conversation again about a striker. And I still think it's true. that kind of real A-grade, elite-level player up front would take him to another level. But I think ultimately we should value and praise continuity.

13:40When we talked about how we just woke up last week, how wild and obscene a lot of the transfer market is now. Arsenal really, they've made some additions, but that's the core of the same team. And we kind of always just overlooked Eklund Reis. I think Chelsea did look like they could have scored in that last 15 minutes from some quite quick breaks. and often Rice was the man once with some nefarious means by kicking Roger's heels and tripping him up but a couple of other times he was the guy who was retreating and making a really crucial intervention so we just kind of take that for granted now but yeah they should be praised for kind of squad building that has been done over a number of seasons and doesn't need a wild burst of cash in one transfer window yeah two final thoughts on Chelsea Gregor I'll come to you in a second on Rhys James and this midfield situation and the full backs and things but Alison you were one of many people that tipped Chelsea and Jabby Alonso to do well this season anything that you saw in this game that either made you think yes this is a proper team to contend for the top two or three places or ah actually there's some limitations here I thought if Caicedo wasn't going to be fit then they would struggle and they did and he's their most important player arguably so that that has to be a mitigating factor Overall, this was my first press conference in the presence of the great Xabi Alonso.

15:06And boy, the guy has an aura. So I still back him to be able to do what it takes. He just exudes footballing intelligence. And I can tell that the players... Didn't have much intelligence in this game. No points. Lap up. The players will lap up. Points dropped from winning positions at the end. What he asks them to do. Three by Xabi Alonso. I think it was a tight game. He was missing his best midfielder and he was playing the defending champions who were in a very good groove. I still think they're going to do incredibly well this season. Right. But on that theme, midfield and then players like Rhys James, Xabi Alonso in one of these wondrous aura-filled press conferences on Friday hailed Rhys James, maybe in a little bit of clever PR work, having just sold one of his best midfielders for£125 million and said, Rhys James can be a world-class central midfielder, Gregor.

15:56but it is still maybe an issue when you're playing in these big games that if Alisson is going to be right that they are going to be near the top of the table is that enough? Can he play that position firstly to the very top level do you think? Yeah I mean as we were saying before I love watching him strike a football some of his switches of play his shot in the first half was a rocket a free kick as well he strikes a ball beautifully and he can play midfield he came through the ranks at Chelsea as a midfielder but for all the kind of the I don't know the spatial awareness the like his position and just nous generally midfield nous I don't think he's up there with certainly not with Akaï Seda or even Laviard like just someone who is looking around and thinking like what Martin Samuel always says about you know you need someone to be a pessimist as a defender if he's going to be the defensive minded player in midfield he needs to be pessimistic He needs to look around and think, what's the worst thing that could happen here?

16:57And I don't get that. I feel like he's always trying to look up. Even for the goal, Odegaard runs off him, right? So the answer is no. I think he can play a lot of games for Chelsea in that position. And it would depend. If there was someone else alongside him, that profile could maybe make it workable. But fundamentally, no, I don't think he's the answer. There's another factor at work, which is that Rhys James is injury prone. And playing a fullback where you have to have these bursts of speed do not suit him anymore. And if you're going to get the most out of him as a player, as part of your squad, then midfield is a better bet for him to be able to stay fit.

17:34Is that though a bit of a luxury in the modern game? So physical, the idea that, you know, I would love to sit and watch Rhys James in that kind of quarterback role, pinging passes, but you can't always have that, can you? You could have that at home game against a weaker side. You can't have that at the Emirates, can you? No? No, I guess it's, this is sort of something more out of my expertise, but I guess it's to do with, you know, what Alison's saying, long sprints, for example. If you've got slightly wobbly hamstrings, then the idea that you run six 30-meter sprints at high intensity during a game, you're probably not going to do that in midfield.

18:05It's much more short and sharp, maybe. I don't know if that's anything part of the Rhys James thinking. It's an interesting... I mean, Greg will know more about this than me, but I think often in academy, you get players who start in central midfield and move to fullback almost the other way because they're not quite good enough in some area of being midfield, but a lot of their skill set suits fullback. going the other way I think is more difficult because you always have the sort of 360 problem where at fullback players ultimately have everything in front of them all the time and that's a lot easier.

18:32You receive the ball and you have the pitch in front of you. In midfield, obviously a massive part of it is the scanning and always having to look over your shoulder and know what's behind you. I think that's something you can coach when 15, 16 and going through but can you do it after the fact, like when they've already made it? I think it's more difficult, right Gregor? I don't know, do you agree with that? Yeah, I mean we're probably talking about fine margins there. I mean, he has got a lot of those kind of traits and skills. That's part of his skill set because he was a midfielder. But I think at the very top level and when you're talking about working in a lot of tight spaces, you're right.

19:03When you're playing against teams lower down the table and you can be that quarterback and you can play the game he wants, it's a bit like when Wayne Rooney tried to drop into midfield. You think, yeah, there's some games you think, wow, he looks brilliant. And then when it comes to the kind of speed and athleticism or working in the really tight areas, that wasn't his skill set. So, yeah, he's a brilliant player, but Chelsea have fundamentally, again, have left themselves short there. And I think it's centre-half. And again, we can come back to Martinez and Pete spoke about it last week. They've made a signing to kind of...

19:37To say we've signed a World Cup winner and goalkeeper. There was a flaw there and there was an opportunity came up. There wasn't any sort of long-term thinking or planning involved there. That was just an opportunity that came up and they took it. and I don't think it's going to make a huge uptick in their results or performances. And their back three looked a bit kind of like it can be dragged about too easily. There's periods of this game where I was watching Chelsea and thinking, yeah, they look like a seriously well-coached team. Like the way that they can press one moment and then in the next they drop back into a middle low block and they're really compact and they're very hard to play through.

20:13You think, God, they look good. And there's other points you think, you know, Logan Roy comes to mind, this is not a serious team or a serious football club. But when the goal that was disallowed, and Gio Pedro swung a leg at it, and then it was like this kind of calamitous scramble at the back post. And then again, just looking at after this level of investment, again, they're leaving themselves short in key areas of the pitch. But what a manager. Yeah, there's very positive signs from him. I'm going to bring in a fawning Gio Alonso jar, and you have to put a pound in it every time. there's an unnecessary compliment paid.

20:50Moving on, let's quickly look at Manchester City's win against Coventry. Enzo Fernandes obviously leaving Chelsea and getting a winning start at Manchester City. Coventry had chances in this game though. Lots of chances. Probably could and should have drawn this game, Gregor. You know, Ellis Sims hitting one into Donnarumma's face. Long throw, Jack Rodoni, I think. Awanyi running through, should score. Or a City, do we think, kind of dancing through some teething problems and getting wins? Because there is a world in which I could have made the same intro for Manchester City. Three games, nine points off and running.

21:26Geniuses like me who said they were going to win the title. It looks good, but maybe not as good and convincing in these games. We yet to see them tested, aren't we? Yeah, I mean, I think it was just that and Bill Edwards called them this morning that Bournemouth have been ahead for 49 minutes longer than Man City in games so far this year. Right. so like they've they've been fortunate in some of them I think like you're right Covington could have scored a one you went through as well and could have scored we've already spoken about the Bournemouth come back late on like they have been fortunate and I and I said last week you look at Chelsea and despite all their flaws you see you see Xavi Alonso's like imprint on that team you see the basis of what his team is going to look like I still don't really see that about Enzo Maresca and Man City yet but it's early days early days indeed maybe as well you wouldn't want like that?

22:12I don't know. Like when we're talking about like slot taking him from Klopp, I think it was fine. We were all a bit like, oh, what a great thing that he's not trying to kind of revolutionize this. Actually, it's kind of slow burn. And at this point, if I sort of thought, wow, this is a real Maresca team. In a way, I'd be like, why? Like we're three weeks in after kind of having Pep for whatever it was, 15 years. You know, maybe it's going to be the more smart thing to do is to have a more sort of slow and sensible transition. I don't know. I think he's had, he's thought about this loads. He's clearly had a glow up.

22:41Enzo Morescu. Like, he's got new clobber on the touchliners, and he won the battle of the knitted polo shirts with Frank Lampard, definitely. His look newer. Frank's had been through the wash a few times, quite clearly. I spoke to Paul Hurst from the press conference on Friday. Paul Hurst, you know, Yorkshireman, not always prone to enthusiasm every now and again, but came on, was like, Enzo, great form, you know, really effusive. And I thought back to some of you who'd been at Enzo Morescu Chelsea press conferences talking about how grumpy he was. I was like, this guy's had some bit of PR chat and has come in and just gone, you know, I've got really good footballers.

23:15Brian Cherky, there you go. You play there. Harlan, you play there. It'll be all right. Yeah, we'll just see how we get on. I'm telling you, I'm telling you. And it might work. We will see another man who, you know, has got a really big job on his hands, Andoni Iraiola, taking over at Liverpool, but finally getting a win on Friday night against Ipswich. Tom, you were there for this one. I guess the most easy question, I think, for anyone who watched this game would be, was this Liverpool promising signs and really good or Ipswich pretty disastrous and bit worrying? Yeah, I think you could make an argument for both.

23:49Gary O 'Neill afterwards was kind of claiming that Ipswich were right in it and it was a brilliant performance. I think he was optimistic, let's say that. I thought Liverpool were good. Let's go with that for now. I think the front, the attack, I mean, Isak looked great. And it was really nice to see him doing Isak things again. Like his first goal was sort of instinctive. It was sort of a weekend for early near post finishes. And this was another one of those where I think you could, if you want to, have a go at the goalkeeper. Actually, it was just a really good early finish, you know? And that was kind of really ruthless goal scoring.

24:21And the second one is that kind of ESAC thing where he sort of does a kind of winding run, like works his way through and threads it into the gap. I thought it was just great to see him back in that kind of mode. But Cody Gakpo was excellent. It's one of the more bonkers things, isn't it? To think about they might have sold him. Yeah, I mean, why? And also, like, what are they going to do with him now? Because he was the best player on the pitch, honestly, for an hour. He was the best player on the pitch. And that is even with Isak, you know, being brilliant for the first hour. And they brought on Barcola, obviously.

24:49And Barcola has to play on the left because, you know, he spent£123 million on the guy and he's class. So he has to play there. But can Gatko play on the right? Because they haven't got any players on the right. Is he going to play sort of a bit more down the middle here and there? I mean, you know, Iriola sort of said afterwards, it's great how versatile he is, which kind of makes you think, yeah, like in a long season, Gakpo's going to get a lot of minutes and that'll be fine. But it was a great night for Liverpool, I think. Obviously, much needed win for Iola, you know, to get his kind of tenure up and running.

25:16But you did come away with it thinking slightly, like why have they signed a very expensive player to play on the left wing when they have this guy already who is really good? Do you think the answer to that might be, I was quite interested to see how many times Izak drifted out wide to the left sometimes. Do you think the answer might be in him working on a kind of fluid front three or even four at times. Because once you throw Eketike back, like, it's a tantalising prospect, isn't it, in some respects for Liverpool fans thinking, well, if Izac starts scoring, we've signed Barcala, this Munoz lad looks really fun and direct and quick.

25:47Gakpo's really consistent. Wurtz. Wurtz, Eketike, like... And Gamoa. Gamoa. Like, if he can get it all working, it could be terrifying. But they all want to play on the left, Tom. They all want to play on the left. That's what I'm saying. They all get 10 minutes on the left, but as long as you all rotate, it's just like a conveyor belt. Everyone gets, I'm on the left now. Yeah. Do you think that could work? Maybe. I mean, Real Madrid had this problem, don't they, as well, with Benicius and Mbappé trying to come in on the same side. And I think the sort of idea of a fluid front three where everyone kind of gets a go in their favourite position is a nice idea.

26:20But generally, Isak wants to come in off the left. Tell me I'm being naive again. I think Barclay wants to do that as well. I mean, France have had this thing, and they kind of make it work, right, with Mbappe and Bacala and Dembele as well. Like, the issues for Liverpool are also elsewhere, by the way. Like, in attack, they're kind of fine. It'll be good, right? The issues they have are a fullback. Even in central defence, in this game, you know, there were times when Ipswich could get at them. They had two or three openings and you thought, ah, Liverpool are still loose, you know, and central midfield as well.

26:48I think the balance is right there. So, yes, there's a problem in terms of the attack a little bit, but the actual thing here, I think, for Liverpool, longer term, that makes you think, can they get into the kind of top two or whatever, is the defence and the full-backs. What did you make of speaking to Andoni Iraiola after the game? I'm always interested to know what you guys make of managers in press conferences. He's a manager that you'll have spoken to before in Bournemouth. You know, he's happy, chappy, big pressure this time now. Everyone loved Bournemouth. Spotlight is on now. Did he seem any different to you?

27:16Yeah, he has a bit more big aura, I thought. Yeah, I was actually coming away thinking like he looks comfortable in his skin there. He's a big aura. Yeah, he's been watching Xabi Alonso, clearly. Yeah, he's not just dressing in the kind of all black that Arteta does. I mean, Xavi Lonzo needs to have a bit more imagination, Ali. Like, you know, he's meant to be this incredible fashion king and he just comes in and he's just copying the guy who's just won the league. Exactly. Whereas Zandoni, at least, he's doing a bit different. I mean, in the press conference, I thought he just, he looks calm.

27:41He looks comfortable, you know, and obviously it was a good night for him. But he didn't look to me like a sort of mid-table manager who was a bit kind of like at a big club. I was like, actually, he looks like he's been here for a while. and I've said for a while I think Iriola he's a high class coach and if he gets the time and the patience I think he'll do a great job Do you not feel though that Ipswich just gave an invitation to Gakko and Izak to play well because they were defending quite high up and there was space if you give Izak space to run into he will do that and anyone who's now facing Liverpool will look at that footage and think right okay we'll defend deeper Izak made the run twice for the second goal yeah he made the run and he threw his arms up and he just got another couple of seconds just stepped back onside and made the run again still no one was with him it was ridiculous yeah so yeah you're right the spaces were extraordinary in those early stages of the first half bit of a worry for Ipswich then Gregor do you think in this one?

28:35yeah yeah I mean I said before I think that how many goals they concede is going to be an issue like Gary O 'Neill's smart and he's obviously had some good results as a manager against big clubs so he's not one to really take a backward step I think he probably thought Liverpool who were there to be got at, but it went badly for them. And yeah, I have some worries about them defensively. Leif Davis, he's a great footballer. He's got a great left foot. Love him getting down the left and whipping crosses in, but you just always see, you saw it in his last season in the Premier League, someone getting in the space behind him.

29:10That's going to be your pound jar for this season, slightly pitying assessments of Leif Davis. I'm sad about it. I remember writing that he could have been, he could have got an England cap when he got promoted. You loved him, almost like you loved... He's shown up on a different level. Left backs from the Football League with good left foots. It's almost like you're completely biased, you've got. Anyway, loads more still to come in the second half of the show. We'll be looking at Crystal Palace's big win at Fulham. That match is the source of today's quiz question. To take us into the break, Alex Iwobi made his 100th Premier League appearance for Fulham in this match, becoming just the fifth player to hit that milestone for three different clubs in four competitions, having also done so for Arsenal and Everton.

29:48Can you name the other four? Find out after the break.

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32:07Welcome back to the game football podcast for The Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clarke and I've got Gregor Robertson, Tom Ulner and Alison Rudd with me. Gregor is still in absolute agony that he cannot get the final name here. So let's just run it through. Alex Uobi, 100 Premier League games for three different clubs. He did so for Arsenal, Everton and Fulham. I asked you to name the other four. The ones we've got so far are? James Milner. James Milner. Gareth Barry. Gareth Barry. Gary Speed. Gary Speed. And the final one that you still can't get despite the fact that I've given you these three clubs of Derby, Southampton and Stoke is...

32:40It's not... Do you know the most damning thing for you, Gregor Robertson, is that producer Neil has just told me the answer. Oh, right. Well, it's not. I was going to say Oakley, but it's not, is it? Go on. Rory DeLapp. Oh, God. Let's pour from us. He's really upset about that. I love really tapping into Gregor Robertson's competitiveness as a former elite sportsman. Really, really good. Look, he's absolutely gutted. Anyway, let's cheer you up. let's talk about some happiness for some left backs, shall we? Tyric Mitchell and Ben Chilwell getting the goals that gave Crystal Palace and new manager Pierre Sarge a much-needed win in a really fun game at Fulham.

33:16Not fun for Fulham fans or Alvaro Albaloa because that's the tag going along with all their games. They're all fun. Don't get any points, though. I'm absolutely delighted for Tyric Mitchell, aren't we? I mean, two of my favourite... Maybe my favourite brace ever in football, this could be. Really? Yeah, yeah. Big category, I know. maybe one to think about for the international break, our favourite doubles. You've got the first goal, finds himself in a position where he's like, oh my God, and then he admits afterwards that he only shot because he heard Eddie Nketiah shout, shoot! Then his second goal, complete accident.

33:49My God. And he realises, I've scored two. Wonderful stuff. And then Ben Chilwell, emergency signing on deadline day, comes off the bench and he scores. Brilliant for Crystal Palace after a very difficult start to the season, isn't it? Yeah, brilliant. and I actually quite enjoyed Pierre Sage's interview afterwards he's kind of like I feel a bit sorry for Fulham and Arbor they had you know they had chances they're having a tough time as well I couldn't believe I heard he said that but yeah brilliant for Mitchell as well like he's I don't know he's like I think he's one of the most underrated players in the league and largely because of his I said this quite a lot on the podcast but I think in 1v1 duels he's one of if not the best defender in the league as a fullback yeah he's absolutely outstanding and he's like, so many defenders kind of do things that are tokenistic.

34:37They go and close people down and they usher them one way, they shepherd them. He goes there and he tries to win the ball and he often does. So he's brilliant. And obviously he's not renowned as you saw for his goal scoring, but he improved a hell of a lot under Oliver Glasner in that aspect. Like when, remember when Glasner got the job, everyone thought, I don't think Mitchell's going to fit in in this system, but he really, he really developed him and he became a threat attacking wise as well. So yeah, and his interview after, was great he's kind of saying my boy Ben got the third as well and I loved Bill Edgar's bit of his column today he said it's the first time he believes since the second world war that three left backs have scored for one team in the same top flight game so good little stat from Bill yeah always a good little stat from Bill just on Fulham two questions I wanted to ask Tom I'll ask you about Arboloha in just a second but Alison Kit Shepard our colleague wrote a piece about Josh King young man very talented someone you've interviewed before talked about Thomas Tuchel being in the crowd Kit talking up his chances of an England call up I read that and thought Little bit early But what do you make of him As a player And his potential Well he's in He's in the England set up I mean he's in the The youth teams for England And if a national team Has any common sense at all That you monitor Not just what they do For the club You monitor what they do For England Under 19 Under 20s And so on Did he not train with The seniors before the World Cup As well Am I wrong in saying that Right I think he might have I think he was one of the players That were invited Right But yeah He's on the radar He's on the radar And he should be on the radar because to me, that's the whole point of having masses of games at youth level for internationals.

36:11Why you were overplaying these kids if it's not because you want to see more of them and give them more experience. I interviewed him because he was clearly a star in the making and he's different. He's really, really bright and polite. And you can tell sometimes from meeting somebody that they're on a trajectory. He wasn't saying it of himself. That would make him a horrible young man to be. But you can just tell there's growth there. And he looks like he's grown up a bit over the summer. Maybe the backroom staff have told him, this is your year. It's like he's become a grown up and he could be a proper superstar player.

36:55I think in three or four years time, we'll be saying, wow. So you think he will be? Oh, I think he will. I don't think it'll take that long either. No, you think he will as well. Yeah, I just checked. It was him and Gamora and Alex Scott. They were the three young players, kind of future players that were called up by Tuchel for the kind of pre-World Cup training camp. So yeah, I think he might get called up. Yeah. I forgot the youngsters to watch piece before the season started. And I spoke to someone at Fulham and you're asking all the clubs, you know, who's the one? And they sort of said, well, apart from Josh, you know?

37:23And it almost surprises me that he's only 19 because he feels like he's been around for a while. I've been talking about him for a while. Yeah. On our below, Tom, you've bought into my bit of fashion chat, so we should praise him maybe for his rolled up jacket sleeves, bit 80s on the touchline. No, that's Miami Vace. You're not having it? I'm not having it at all. You're not having it? It's different from the old knitted three-quarter zip, though, isn't it? It's better than that. I feel a little going against them when it comes to... Really? What, more than chipping goals galore every game? Because they are fun to watch, aren't they?

37:52They were great against Chelsea, created a lot of chances, great in this game, but they've got Liverpool away and Manchester United at home before the international break, Tom. This is maybe an example of how unforgiving and challenging the Premier League is because there's been a lot of change at Fulham. You were replacing someone who'd done so well, he needs a win pretty quick, doesn't he? Yeah, they're too fun to watch, aren't they? That's the problem. Their games are so open. I think this was a game that after a couple of defeats, you sort of think this is home to Palace. You know, they needed a win here or even a draw.

38:22Don't lose the game, you know? And I think they're just, they're playing very high up. They're going very man-to-man around the pitch. They look a little bit disorientated in defence. Some of the shape for the goals was quite poor. A lot of the players were very out of position. You just wonder with Arbeloa, and it's just a theory, but he comes from Real Madrid where he basically hasn't had any chance to put his stamp on a team because the job is coming halfway through the season and just let the players get on with it. After most of his coaching career has been coaching the kids at Madrid, and maybe he'd come into Fulham and he's like, great, now I can do what I want to do.

38:57This is the way I like to play. High up, everyone goes man to man and we play very attacking. But maybe after Silva, like in the Premier League with a team like Fulham, it just needed to be a bit more what we're talking about, Maresca, a bit more sensible, a bit more slow burn. Let's just kind of like make this transition from Marco Silva, which is not as jazzy as Pep Guardiola, but actually kind of a similar thing where he's been there a while. Everyone's very used to that style of play. Just let yourself bed in a bit. Like maybe Arbolau is kind of just being a little bit too ambitious at this point with this team.

39:26And it looks like a side that is basically trying to adjust very quickly to a new manager. And I just don't think is making that adjustment very well. Yeah, that chimes with it exactly. Every time I hear him speak, I don't like what he says. Like I think he keeps talking about the way I want, I see football being played. It seems like he sounds very dogmatic. And we've spoken a lot recently about football is turning away from that a little bit. You need to be more pragmatic. You need to have different faces. you need to be able to press I like Chelsea do and then sit in a mid-block and be you know you can't just say this is the way I see football being played when you're the manager of Fulham I don't think so so all the things that were kind of that were like possibly alarming from the Chelsea game in the opening day about how expansive they were when they were building from the back like the holes they left it's kind of crystallised a little bit I think he needs to change it if they get a win against Liverpool will you roll up your jacket sleeves in tribute to it absolutely not it's freezing in here I told you Boo, boo, boo.

40:21Right, let's run through some of the other games. I'm going to do a bit of quickfire thoughts on some of these draws that I've had. Feel free to jump in on any of this nonsense that you're about to hear. Hull nil, Aston Villa nil. Chances for both of these teams. Olly McBurney, it was there for him, Gregor, right at the end. Oh, my goodness me. I mean, in fairness, Emi Wendia too. Yes, very true. And Barkley. Very true. Although, this is no consolation to Aston Villa fans whatsoever, but I'm really enjoying seeing their squad players playing all the time. Ross Barkley is now playing in central midfield for Aston Villa all the time I'm sure Aston Villa fans are probably pulling their hair out and going Tom we need better players than Ross Barkley in midfield well yeah this idea that just having Emery who's so good at improving players just leaning on that a bit too much maybe when you watch the team I think I don't know Emery's great but there are limits to his greatness another good point for Hull Brentford versus Sunderland really interesting game this one congratulations to Enzo Le Fay for stepping up to take that penalty after his previous horror shows Interesting from Brentford as well.

41:20Subs at half-time. I think he made three. Keith Andrews there with his trousers pulled up far too high, in my opinion, looking a little bit Simon Cowell-less. But the main problem of this game, Sunderland's socks. Have we seen this? Oh, I agree. I really do agree. Oh, my God. A lovely, like, navy blue kit, shorts, and then these kind of, like, dark beige. Awful, awful. Real, real. The biggest travesty of this season so far. It was his skin-coloured. The first time I saw it, it was Jack and I thought, he's not got any socks on I didn't think he had any socks on who's not allowed to wear any socks exactly honestly ridiculous real real problems in that game as entertaining as it was Brighton won Leeds won I'm liking a lot of Brighton's new signings as well Gregor thoughts on whether they should have had a penalty late in this game for the bit kind of the tussle play around no not enough really he put his arm there and then it took away quick enough and I think I think he went down a bit too easily as well Newcastle 2 Bournemouth 2 very fun game good kit from Bournemouth again there's a fashion theme to this show really like that kind of lilac number goalkeeper kit as well very good good comeback Harvey Barnes what a goal beautiful what a bloody goal that is interestingly as well if you want to know more about Newcastle's new signing Fernandes Pardo Martin Hardy our colleague wrote a really interesting profile in the weekend but Alison you were reflecting on this game as a missed opportunity for Bournemouth having been 2-0 up under new manager Marco Rosa this is a theme developing with Bournemouth they I think they now top the charts on letting in goals late in games from a winning position.

42:50This is the... So, the Bournemouth look like they've made a fantastic transition in bringing in Marco Rosa and they did their due diligence and they've gone for continuity. The players look comfortable, full of expression, really well organized, but it's become a psychological... Has it become a psychological issue? If you know it's a tendency you've had to let in goals late, and we all assumed it was because they worked so hard they got tired at the end of games. They didn't quite work out how to make their high intensity game last the full 96 minutes, whatever it was. But if you know that's something you do, is it purely about the physicality of it and being able to last the full match?

43:44Or has it now veered into a psychological issue? Which I suspect it probably has because if that's your greatest fear in a game and it so undermines everything you've done in the previous 80 minutes, it's ridiculous really. So that's, I think they need to spend a lot of money on a sports psychologist and sort that out pretty fast. I think approving a set of plays would help too. I think they've considered the most since the start of last season. and you think about the game so far, Gaze, Header, I think it was the winner against, was that equaliser, the winner against City? The one against Everton at the death was an absolute calamity when...

44:22Oh my gosh, two people headed it up in there. And Tavernier just bumped into each other. This wasn't the same. I think they were unlucky. I mean, I think they were the better team. So I'd still be quite positive about Borougham at the start, personally. Just very quickly, we've spoken about the two other teams as well. Fulham in 19th, Bournemouth in 15th, Palace in 13th, three new managers to this league, all with big jobs in terms of the people they were replacing. Who are you most hopeful for? I think we're most worried about Fulham. Would that be a fair agreement in the room? Which of the other two are you most hopeful for?

44:57Bournemouth. Bournemouth? Oh, yeah, Bournemouth. Because they look the same team. Yeah, which is nice, isn't it? Bit of continuity. Well, we all ordered them last season, so why wouldn't we be glad to see them looking the same? Yeah, absolutely. I like the way Rosa sort of said, yeah, it could be a psychological issue, so let's not talk about it. Always the best bet with psychological issues, just ignore them. Let's see if they come up again. On to another 2-2 draw. What a thrilling game and fun game this was to watch. Manchester United against Everton 2-2. Another screamer in this one from Ainsley Maitland-Niles.

45:26The screamer that no one saw coming. What a wonderful, wonderful goal. Wonderful moment at that stadium for him as well, back in the Premier League. Everyone going, oh my God, how has he done that? The ball rolled out just so perfectly as well, wasn't it? Just like that lovely pace was like, yes, go and hit it, mate. Do you know what I also... I did him a disservice too. I thought it hit his heel. I thought like, he looked like he was opening up to put in the other corner. Yeah, yeah, no. But you watch it from another angle and it's like, no, he's arced it beautifully. Also, credit to, I think, Bruno Fernandes and Uri Tielemans who really added to the drama by doing the old fall backwards when they conceded.

45:58I think that's such a lovely moment as well, just for the cinematic aspect of it. But on this game, before we get into some analysis, you should hear from Paul Hurst, our Manchester correspondent who sent a note after the game with some thoughts and then we'll come back to you guys in the studio. Just in the car park outside the Hill Dickinson Stadium still having a big party over there in the bar even though it's two hours after final whistle Everton will be mightily relieved that they got a draw from that game. The United fans watched a few of them going towards the exit they were absolutely gutter that they didn't win and And I can understand why, really, because it was so, it was there for them on a plate, really, playing against a squad that has 18 outfield players after a terrible deadline day.

46:44They should have won that. They should have, to me, like the biggest takeaway from that was that they don't really have the confidence to see out games. They don't have the kind of swagger, the control, the game management to see out games like that when they're so, so far in front in terms of quality. but they just lack that belief to get over the line, particularly away from home. And this is a game they should have won quite easily. And Michael Carrick said in the press conference after, I don't think it's such a bad start to the season, but four points from three games against two of whom who came up from the championship is not a great return, if you ask me, particularly when they've got Manchester City next weekend.

47:29so they really need to work on that defensive side of the game because they invested in the attack last summer, invested in midfield this summer and they're still lacking a little bit for me at centre-half. They lack a bit of control, a bit of presence, a bit of aura. Harry Maguire is still going and he's still probably the best defender they've got and they signed him in 2019 and that probably says quite a lot. So I think if you look at that defence, the squad that they've got now, you come away from this match thinking this is another reason why next summer they need to buy a top quality centre-half and a couple of full-backs as well.

48:12So plenty for United fans to think about in the coming week. Paul Hurst there with his thoughts from the Hill Dickinson Stadium, focusing mainly on Manchester United and an opportunity missed for them because as much as I'm talking about Ainsley Maitland-Niles' wonderful goal, it probably was when Benjamin Sesko scored that goal. You thought Manchester United have got the win. Did they deserve a win, do we think, in this game? I thought that maybe 2-2 was probably a fair result at the end. What do we think? Hurst, he's right to point out that there's some frailties in this Manchester United team, particularly in defence?

48:45Yeah, and I think you saw Carrick's frustration. You know, some of his interviews, they're very short on curt answers about, you know, you must be disappointed to lose like that. It was like, yeah. So it was kind of... And he kept just coming back to the same point that we should see the game out. I think he was fuming about the fact that they didn't and the way that everyone were allowed to get that kind of one last shot on goal. Do you think Moyes deserves credit though? I was watching it thinking, you know, David Moyes often criticised being a bit pragmatic, not proactive throws on Hayden Hackney who's involved in the first goal making runs Jack Grealish on the left obviously made a difference because just by purely being stood there and being Jack Grealish didn't he Manchester United were clearly looking every time Maitland-Niles on scores a scream bit of praise for David Moyes or do you think it was that Manchester United lost it?

49:31I think both things can be true I mean let's be honest they also let's remember they scored you know they took the lead again in the 88th minute and it was a great run by Luke Shaw everyone seems to be writing him off like saying he would desperately need a full-back, particularly a left-back. Obviously, he's got bad fitness records, but I still think he's a lot of life in him. And it was a great run to the left, late in the game, pinpoint cross, like just over Tarkovsky's head, and a great header by Sesko. So yeah, at that point, they should see the game out. But I think the kind of frailties at the back are probably the most alarming thing for them.

50:06I mean, they conceded, what, two goals down every game, so Man Utd at the moment have to score three to win any football match. It's just not sustainable. I mean, I think it's sort of what we knew is that in the summer, they should have signed, you know, a really good central defender. I think it would have made all of our prediction about Man Utd a lot higher. I mean, we talk about Konza, for example, would have been a great signing for Man Utd at 50 million or whatever it was. You know, that would have been perfect for them. Arsenal make the signing that they don't really need. You know, there are lots of other teams like Man Utd who could really do with that kind of buy.

50:32And it just, it looks like a, you know, a really good, you've got Mbouma, you know, playing really well. Great start of the season. You've got Fernandes, you've got Rashford kind of back. You know, this is a really good side the further up the pitch you get. But unfortunately, they've still got big problems at the back. And also, this was the perfect time to face Everton. You'd have thought this would be a match where United could express themselves and really bully the opposition. Because the build-up to the game had been all about who's had the worst transfer window, Everton by a country mile, 18 outfield players that they've got in their squad.

51:01If you're Manchester United, you think, right, well, we're going to exploit this. A, the sort of sense of pessimism around the ground. And somehow they allowed Everton to experience joy and expression. It was like almost in a crystallised form what you'd have hoped David Moyes would do throughout the whole season. He managed to do it within one game, get a lot out of plays that people thought were fringe signings, not very exciting. And suddenly, you know, someone on his debut is making the shot of his career. Yeah, which is important for Moyes as well, isn't it, with all that change? and Tyric George I think maybe Gregor it was you great finish and was it you last week said do you think there's a player there yeah I think Pete said it as well it's kind of yeah it's a strange one he was someone who was obviously very highly thought of at Chelsea and he came through and actually played well when he got opportunities but just again because he's an academy player he's pure profit he was moved on and because of the minute trading they do so I think there's a player there and that was a you know as I said at the start if the goal goes in near post you look at the keeper I don't think you can look at the keeper on that one my God he caught it beautifully just on Michael Carrick very quickly a very measured man he's got the big heirs of kind of a company man hasn't he a club man with this job at Manchester United he's got the jacket on on the touchline he's played under Fergie when's he going to snap that's what I'm wondering watching his press conferences because as you say he's very measured and you're like yeah but Everton Ipswich Hull you think there's a bubbling cauldron yeah he's got a Manchester derby coming up I think he kind of snapped after that was it the whole game yeah the whole game he was a bit tetchy there was one interview where he was asked like on a passion intensity he said that's a stupid thing but he snapped at the interviewer I'm talking about at his players it's very like nicey-nice you think he's gone?

52:47I think he saw the look of someone who was fuming there and I know a lot of managers do the interviews well do they now sometimes they roll through them before they even get to speak to the players but either way I think they were getting both barrels yeah in the dressing room really interesting but I'm delighted to see the screamer brought back you know long range strikes has anyone seen the Somali international defender Ali Omar for Dumbarton this weekend? No. If you haven't, go and check it out. He scores a free kick from inside his own half. And I think it's with his left foot as well. Absolutely brilliant.

53:17That should have happened, should it? Let's be honest. Oh, for goodness sake. For goodness sake. And there'll be more mention of wonderful, wonderful goals in the EFL show with me and Gregor. That'll be out on Tuesday. Let's finish with our favourite topic. Every football podcast's favourite topic. Tottenham Hotspur. Tottenham Hotspur, nil. Nottingham Forest, nil. Tom, Tom, you wrote a brilliant piece about Tottenham before this game, about this idea of you can sign all the players, why is it still not clicking? I'll come to you in just a second, but I think to tee up the analysis of the game, let's speak to the man who's there watching it.

53:49What did you make of Tottenham's performance in this game, Gregor? That's a point for them, Deserby, off and running, clean sheet. Yeah, you found the positives there, Tom. I've done it, right. So you're coming in with the negatives. No, I mean, I think one of the things you've got to say is that they stood up to the physical challenge just in the first half. And it's a considerable physical challenge coming up against this Forest team under Glasner at a raucous city ground. And they hung in there. It was a bruising first half, really was. Tonali was flattened once by Ndoi. Van der Ven absolutely cleaned out Ndoi.

54:26There were a few proper challenges. And they just stood up to that challenge. And I think De Zerbi was saying afterwards that that was one of his biggest takeaways. Particularly Tonali and Benton Coeur, they looked like they were ready to mix in. So that's the positives. Just looking at their attack, Marmouche had two chances. One in the first half when he went clean through, and I think the offside flag kind of would have spared his blushes, but he dragged it wide. One in the second half where he kind of cut inside and De Zerbe is not shy of kind of digging out his players as well. He honed in on that incident in particular because he just skied it over the crossbar.

55:03He's like, Kudus was there. Robertson was overlapping. Like, we ain't one of them and across the other one's free. Like, we need to make better decisions. And that ultimately is true of most of his attacking players. Tell really, really makes the right decision. Savio, like, there's bolts of energy and like, you know, those twinkle toes and stuff, but there's just no end product. And they started the second half. They were good. they were really like they've turned up the intensity they were sustaining attacks kept getting it wide crosses into the box but really couldn't fashion a proper opening and then they were very fortunate in the end to skate with a point yeah were you think fortunate because of the handball Nico Williams not a handball for you it's not conclusive enough it's not conclusive enough and Oliver Glasner was very good on this afterwards he made the point we are told at the start of the season again we need to basically empower the referees that the VAR should not be like making calls, essentially guessing.

56:06And instead we're weakening referees and it's a hard job and he's right. But even though it touched his hands, because it did touch his hands. How do you mean it did touch his hands? Did you see it touch his hands? I've seen a replay where you can see that it touches his hands. It took Sky releasing a different image than the one that was shown to the VAR at the time for that to look like it was true. but even then I don't think you can be 100 % certain and I would listen to Necco Williams like what's he got to lose he said that there was no point that I consider that it hit my hand it hit my head through my hands and like and actually I don't care I don't care like Tom and I were arguing about this before we came on like if he's crossing he's about he must be no more than 6 inches away from the goal line and it's a human instinct to cover your hands when you're going to block someone who's about to smash the ball clear on the goal line and it wouldn't have mattered if his hands weren't there I said the same thing about Harry Maguire's last week and I know that was more blatant I don't think he gained any advantage really by having his arms across his chest the ball would have hit his chest if he'd fallen in the same place I see Gregor's point but I just come back to the thing about fundamentally in football you shouldn't be able to score with your hand I think I move you on this one whether it's deliberate or not deliberate like I know the handball rule is it matters where the hand is though no I just think if the ball hits your hand and it goes in the net it's not a goal like it's rule number one in football you can't use your hand so you shouldn't be able to score with your hand OK you need to be certain it hits their hand then I agree in this case the inconclusiveness is the problem but if we know it hits his hand and it goes in I think the right decision has been made I have to say yeah well if it had gone in it would have been really bad news for Roberto De Zerbe and Tottenham coming back then Tom to your brilliant preview piece that you wrote for us on Friday it's all about soap isn't it that's the problem yeah all about winning mentality and then you know nil-nil but I mean I think it sort of just taps into this idea that, you know, obviously everyone, you know, talking a lot about Tottenham and, you know, spending nearly 400 million on signings.

58:01And there is that, of course. That's, you know, the main thing, I think. But equally, they have thought for a long time, you know, the club, the culture, the mentality, you know, we talk about these words, right? But actually, what does it actually mean off the pitch? And the club are making steps in this direction, you know? And, you know, some examples, like, for example, they basically think that the Tottenham away dressing room is, you know, much too pleasant, you know, that people come for a lovely day out and they love their... How pleasant are we talking here? Spa levels? Well, for example, like in the...

58:29I mean, people did say that the training ground, for example, feels like a bougie spa, you know, with scented candles and things. And it's sort of like, even the players have said, we can't really tell the difference between like a high-class hotel or whether it's a high-performance centre, you know? And they're trying to make it more of a high-performance centre. So, you know, in the away dressing room at Spurs, they've taken away the nice sort of tables in the middle. So it's now just kind of one big open cavernous space because apparently psychologists say that that's worse for a kind of pre-match dressing room.

58:54the showers they've taken away the the molten brown hand wash and body lotion uh some of the painting on the walls is a bit scruffy now they're just trying to make it a bit less plush you know and i think what they replaced it with just a bar of soap what i was thinking more about what painter and decorators they got you know just chuck some paint in the walls guys like make it scruffy don't you know i don't know what they replaced it with apparently they replaced it with you know more generic hand lotion was the thing was generic hand lotion i mean what's that i mean and it's so prepared. But for example, at the training centre as well, you know, like making this, you know, more sort of, you know, pictures of the past and, you know, all this stuff that in isolation, you know, we can laugh at and I think we think it sounds ridiculous.

59:34And we went through this journey with Arsenal, right, many times where people sort of were very cynical about the dog called Wynn and about the olive tree, which is yada, yada, yada. But I think to be fair to the club, like I do think this stuff sort of matters. And I think it also maybe doesn't matter to kind of cynical journalists, but I think it sort of matters to young professional footballers. So they are taking steps. I think in terms of the team, Gregor's absolutely right. The attack is the problem for Spurs. And it's something that De Zerbi knows he has to fix. Not enough chances created, not enough punch.

1:00:03And they have some gaps here to improve because they have Solanke coming back. Kudus, I think, made his first start in a long time. Maddison is meant to be back in a couple of weeks. They will have players coming back. But I think, I have to say, it's a low bar, but I actually think a 0-0 away at Forest is a start. Just final word then to you on Tottenham. We've got two more home games before the international break. Everton and Aston Villa will be having to put up with that generic hand soap in the dressing room. Do you see points in those games? Are you seeing signs from this De Zerbi team? Yeah, I do.

1:00:33And I think on the eye test, I've seen Spurs now in three games. I'm not saying they're putting up trees, I'm not saying they're brilliant. I think they're better than their points suggest. I think with players back and the solidity in the team, I think De Zerbi slowly is taking the team in the right direction. They don't look like a De Zerbi team, though. Right. They're not playing anything like the football that we are accustomed to seeing. For better or worse. Well, for worse, I loved watching Roberto De Zerbi's teams. And we spoke about that maybe to do with sort of the evolution of, you know, tactical evolution of the Premier League since he's been away.

1:01:05But they don't look like that. They don't really control a game. It's a bit chaotic. and I don't know like we questioned whether the sign-ins were like really raising the bar I still think that's a big question mark because I don't see I'm not sure I see a hierarchy there I don't see what's your clear best starting forward line but I think people are judging Tottenham in that instance by a sort of fifth place team do these signings are they making them into a fourth place team they're a 17th place team you know and the signings they made in the summer is to take them away from 17th, right? They are.

1:01:45They're 18th. I look at the players they brought in and I think they will do that. We're judging Spurs and what perhaps we thought of them as before. Does it take them from the Europa League into the Champions League? Maybe not. Savinho, Van Ecke, whatever. But it should take them away from the relegation battle. And also, Gregor, you've asked for pragmatism from managers and maybe De Zerbi is just being the ultimate pragmatist. We're not seeing a typical De Zerbi team because he doesn't have the vibe or the players to do that. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Big couple of weeks for Roberto De Zerbi and Tottenham.

1:02:16A big week as well on the Times website. We've got the Champions League football back. We've got plenty of other action in Europe and in the Cup competitions too. You can keep up to date with all the latest on the Times website. But we'll leave it there for now. Tom Ornott and Gregor Robertson and Alison Rudd. Thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. Me and Gregor will be back with the EFL Extra Show and we'll be back with the regular show on Thursday. See you then.

1:03:02We'll be right back.

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