Arsenal v PSG - the key battles?

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. FA Cup winners last season, Europa Conference League winners this season. Crystal Palace are champions again. Ole, ole, beating Gregor Vercano to make it two trophies in two seasons for Oliver Glasner and his team of overachievers. On today's show, we'll discuss that triumph, ask what next for Glasner, Adam Wharton and the club. We'll also debate the tactical battles in the Champions League final between PSG and Arsenal and talk about Anthony Gordon's impending move to Barcelona. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have two of the finest former footballers to have ever turned their hand to journalism.

0:41One is the former Millwall, Marseille and Republic of Ireland striker Tony Cascarino and the other is the former Nottingham Forest, Chesterfield and Scotland under-21 defender Gregor Robertson. Just the two of you in the studio, you're my favourite two. You're my favourite two. Just the two of us. Just the two of you in the studio. But I am delighted to say that the Times football reporter, Kit Shepard, also joins us down the line. He was there watching Crystal Palace's triumph last night and just before he flies home, he's joining us on the game podcast. Hello, Kit. Hi, Kit. Good morning, all.

1:11Good morning. You OK? You're not too hungover from partying with the Palace Ultras last night? No, it's truly professional, Tom. You know how it is. I'm obviously offended that I wasn't included in the praise for footballing ability in the intro, but I'll just back it over it. Listen, you wouldn't be the first one. Alison Rudd always gets upset that I don't mention, I played football as well, Tom. But never mind. Anyway, let's talk about Palace, Kit. What a brilliant night for them and what a great performance, particularly in that second half. Just give us a little summary of how you felt the game went from being in the stadium and what the reaction was like from those Palace fans.

1:46Yeah, the end to a crazy season for Crystal Palace and an unbelievable two and a bit years under Oliver Glasner. They were expected to win the game. that they've got a much bigger budget than Raya Valicano, as Premier League teams often do when they face non-English opposition in this competition. First half, though, was predictably, I suppose, quite cagey because there's such a big game for both sides. I mean, Raya were in a similar situation to Palace. This was their first European final. It just meant so much on an emotional level to the club. But after halftime, Palace's class really showed.

2:24they started on the front foot straight straight from the beginning of the second half got the early goal in the second half from Mateta and sort of came out fairly comfortably after that and Rai didn't really have a sniff yeah I mean you mentioned the journey that they've been on it's been a remarkable season hasn't it and I mean in this competition as well you're the reporter that's been there throughout all their games the home games as well it's not always been straightforward for them this season but they found a way to win and that's probably summed up last night, wasn't it? Where they had that cagey first half and then whether it was the tactical plan from Oliver Glasner to wait or whether he just gave them a rocket at half-time, they found a way to get over the line, didn't they?

3:01Yeah, exactly. I think it was probably more the last in terms of, was it tactics or just Glasner giving them a bit of a kick up the proverbials at the break. They didn't obviously change their tactical system at half-time, but they just seemed to play with a little bit more confidence, a little bit more self-assurance. And interestingly, they had one very, very good chance right before halftime with Tyrek Mitchell kind of getting a header all wrong from a few yards out. And I suppose the former footballers might know better than me. But when you miss a chance that big, it can either be a near miss that encourages you or a false dawn that gets you down.

3:40And for Palace, it seemed very much to encourage them over a halftime break. And I would say that that's testament to Blaznor's fantastic management abilities. Yeah, Tony, we'll pick up there then. Kitts kind of teed you up. It felt like it was going that way, but there weren't really any nerves for Palace. Maybe a little bit at the end, but they look the better team in this game. Yeah, absolutely, Tom. I think there was... I thought Mateta's done brilliantly well, leading the line. Obviously got a goal. Thought the keeper should have saved it personally and held on to it, which not many goalkeepers do these days.

4:13Walton in midfield. Do you know what? The standout feature for me as well was the two fan bases at either end. You know, like, it just felt like a final, really not the prawn sandwich brigade rule there, where it was just fans at each end. I had six friends who travelled over in a minibus to go to Leipzig. And it was a fabulous night for Crystal Palace. And, Kit, I wanted to ask you one quick question on this, because there were problems with Glasner, obviously, during the course of the season. And Mateta, like I just mentioned, he wanted out of the club. I felt Steve Parrish has handled the whole club and the situation brilliantly this year.

4:51And it's enabled them to win the Europa Conference. Yeah, there were times this season where it felt like the sky was falling at Crystal Palace and it would be miraculous if Oliver Glasner made it to the end of the season, even after he had announced he was leaving. Because he announced he was leaving in January, then he had a couple of very public outbursts against the club, against the hierarchy, against the recruitment. them but yeah Tony as you say him and Steve Parrish and the players have found a way to patch things up and get to the end of the season and finish it in style I wonder if the fact that a Glasner knew he was leaving in three months time back when he was having his outburst made it easier just to see it through to the end of the season rather than leave on the spot um and I also I wonder if the Conference League gave them a real thing for Palace to focus on a chance to make more history, which encouraged everyone to patch things up and keep going.

5:51But even if they have had those small advantages to the detente, Parrish, Glasner, the players have shown real maturity to come together and, yeah, for any disagreements to come to one side and get the trophy last night.

6:08Gregor Robertson: It's rare as well. That doesn't happen often in football when these sort of fracturing of relationships usually they break and there's only one outcome. I was at the Frederikstad game which was right at the start in the end of August and I think Izzy had just signed for Arsenal as well. And that was a huge... The thing about Glasner is he wears his heart on his sleeve. He's been totally honest about everything. He said how much of a blow that was for them. and then he also made it clear that Gahey could not leave. And that was a huge moment as well, if you remember. Actually, I think Steve Parrish was on TNT Sports giving an interview, reacting to the things all over Glaston had just said.

6:52Gregor Robertson: So they're almost like having a spat on live TV because Glaston was like, well, if we don't sell him now, we may not get any money for him. We'll lose him for free. That's a decision the club has to make. Glaston was saying, we cannot sell him. We don't have any defenders. We've got a lot of fronts to battle on this season. So that was just one of the many things that have happened in the last 12 months. You think about winning their first ever trophy in their history. The whole dropping from the Europa League to the Conference League. The Ezi sale. Then eventually selling Gehi. Glasner eventually saying, I'm leaving.

7:28Gregor Robertson: Mateta failing his medical to AC Milan. and then end in this way, this great moment of real happiness and glory for the club again. No one would have seen that coming at so many points. And it's unusual, like you said. It's so unusual for Paris and Glasner to find an agreement that gets them to the end of the season with success because it was also incredibly emotional last night from both sets of players and fans. I wanted to finish by asking Kit that question before you go and get your flight home, Kit, and I'll pick up on some of the themes that Greg has quite rightly outlined there. But what was Oliver Glasner like last night, Kit?

8:03We saw kind of celebrations, knee slides and things. You've also seen him at the other end of the spectrum from very upset press conferences this season. Is he a happier man? Relieved? Not going to change his mind, presumably? He's not going to change his mind. I did ask him that and he said no very emphatically. But he was a full-time whistle. He didn't immediately jump for joy like most of the Palace players and fans. He can't look quite overcome with emotion. But yeah, he was then showing his goofy side, kind of doing the knee slide through the tunnel and was very happy. I think I'd just say on the point the guys are making about how rare it is for this relationship to get patched up, I think we've seen it this season.

8:46This has been the season of managerial outbursts to an extent with, obviously, Glasner, Bihar Mareska, Chelsea, Amherm at United, Nuno at Forest, although that feels about six years ago now um but those three managers i mentioned other than glasner they were all out the door pretty soon after they made the outburst whereas whereas glasner stuck around so yes it is rare to patch it up but i also think the difference between glasner and those other guys is he is just he is just honest and straight in public i think with the other three that when they made their comments they were always a little bit cryptic it was like Moresca oh I'm I've had the worst 48 hours of my time as Chelsea manager but I'm not going to quite tell you why or Amarim I don't like being the head coach I want to be the manager what does that mean whereas Glanson just says yeah I don't want to sell Mark Gay and it's really hat me off I don't want to I'm I feel abandoned by the club and it's really hat me off um even even in the the day before the game he was kind of talking about this theme and saying if everyone just said yes to everyone all the time we'd have flowers around the training ground but we would of win everything.

9:51So I think he's just, as a person, he's very honest. He's open. He's fine and comfortable with conflict, and he doesn't see conflict as something that needs to damage a relationship. And you guys may talk more about his next move, but when clubs are evaluating, they might be a little bit irked by the fact that he can go a bit AWOL in media or a bit wild in the media. They've also now got the example that he might do that, but he's just going to be honest, and he will give you the chance to rebuild the relationship. And if what he's done at Palace is anything to go by, you will have success. Yeah, and he will win you trophies.

10:29Kit Sheppard, thank you very much for your insights from the ground reporting on Crystal Palace's triumph. We'll let you go and get your flight, but we'll see you again very soon. Thank you very much, guys. Take care. Loads to get into, chaps, off the back of that. Kit summing it up really nicely. And Gregor, you kind of point to some of the things that you've got to look to to the future. But Palace fans, I don't want to immediately go, well, Oliver Glasner's leaving and what next? Let's bathe in the joy for a little bit because it is a remarkable, remarkable thing to have achieved. Offset, even without all the turmoil that's been going on, I mean, they lost to Macclesfield, for goodness sake, in the FA Cup in the first round of the competition they won last season.

11:06So many times, you know, I was on the editing floor, spoke to Kit, sometimes Gregor, sometimes Gary Jacob from these press conferences and you're like, well, he'll be off any minute now. Just, Tony, both of you, tell us what that must say about the dressing room and this group of players that they've got. To lose a star at the start of the season, to lose a star halfway through the season, to nearly lose another star, as you said, Tony and Mateta, to have the manager nearly going at various points, but definitely going at the end of the season. How often do we see that derail a season? What does it say about this group of players that they managed to achieve this amazing feat?

11:40I think you can add in everybody at the club, Because we're talking about Parrish. Obviously, he's handled it. He could have been a chairman, a part owner who's gone, well, I'm not having that from the manager. You've got to go. And I think the manager, I got it wrong on the manager. I thought he made a massive mistake during the season. They went on a bad run afterwards, didn't they? When it first all came out, they had a pretty difficult time. But somehow, and what we saw last night was quite clear, that was a really united dressing room. Because the way they acted, the celebration for the goal, whether it's literally the subs there.

12:14And I get it, it's a final. But I thought it really felt real last night how much the players were determined. Whether it's Mateta who wanted away from the club. You know, he didn't play like a player that was sulking. And he hasn't since his comeback. And then there was Larson that came on who's been a 50-man, million-pound buyer. But he's not been given a divine right and gone, well, Mateta's out, I'm playing Larson. All of these things, I think, pointed exactly what you're talking about. that that club somehow wasn't divided, which a lot of times it happens in football.

12:47Gregor Robertson: Yes, kind of triumph of the collective. You can absolutely praise the players for the way they've handled and responded and reacted to some of these challenges and setbacks. But I think that again comes back to Glasner and the way he's been so sulky at periods during periods of the season and it was clear he was going to leave. That's going to affect the dynamic between the squad and the team and the manager. But from both sides, they both realise they still have a great opportunity this season to win another trophy. And they've taken full advantage of that. And yeah, a lot of the things he said were right.

13:24Gregor Robertson: I mean, he knew it was going to be such a challenge and it is such a challenge. You look at where the teams who played in Europe this season have finished in the Premier League. And it's evidence that when you've got to fight on both of these fronts, it's a huge, huge challenge. And he knew that was the case. and he might have been slightly strong in some of his words, saying I was abandoned and whatnot, but the club didn't function properly during the summer and give him the right kind of support in terms of reinforcements to his squad. And he was probably right to say it. So when you take all of that into the context, it's been a great, great achievement for everyone involved.

13:59Could you add the fans into it? Because the Palace fans handled it really well as well. They didn't like it. They didn't like the Glazer stuff. They didn't like the Mateta stuff. They wouldn't have liked the Mark Gay leaving in there. Henry Winder.

14:10Gregor Robertson: He didn't like the dropping from the Europa League stuff. I mean, some of the chants at the early Conference League games were something. And understandable, though. But I mean, totally. Tony's right. Like, this is a group of fans that are all by his name. They didn't boo all the time. No, you're quite right. And I mean, they're completely behind the team and it was so wonderful to see so many of them there. Our very own executive sports editor, Joe Hare, was there as well. I did ask him to come and join us on the show, but I haven't heard anything from him this morning. So I'm only assuming that he's still asleep or maybe he's still partying one way or another.

14:36But you're right, Tony, this is a group of fans. And maybe it speaks to how Palace are run. Maybe it comes back to Steve Parrish again. You know, there's always an understanding about players like Alise, Eze. You know, speaking of Joe, I always remember him talking about Wilfred Zaha. And he always used to say, I wouldn't actually mind if he left. I'd quite like, at his peak, I'd quite like to go and see, I'd like him to see him play in the Champions League and see if he's good enough. Because they take a pride in their part in a lot of the growth of these star players. It's the same with Eze.

15:07Gary Jacob mentioned it on Monday's show. Eze going round and speaking to stewards at Palace, who he knew from his time there. There's a kind of community feel to it, isn't there? And it clearly chimes with the players as well. Because you look at that team. I was looking at that team and kind of running through it and looking at the bench when it was kind of nil-nil and cagey and thinking, I don't know who's going to break this down. I'm going to come on to the one man who I think did make a difference in a minute. But there's a lot of players in there. Tyrek Mitchell probably summing it up perfectly.

15:33Yeah, brilliant. A brilliant, brilliant player. a lot of people would maybe go, oh, he's nothing that special. But he's a fantastic servant for Crystal Palace and a fantastic player. He delivers pretty much a 7, 8 out of 10 game every time I watch him. I don't think I've ever seen him have like a shocker. Even if he makes a mistake, he's back up.

15:53Gregor Robertson: And he's evolved as well. I mean, when Glasner got the job and you looked into how he played and his system and there's so much reliance on wing-backs and those wide players. and Daniel Munoz was obviously a perfect fit. Everyone looked at Michelin and thought, I'm not sure if he's got enough going forward, but he's really developed that side of his game and become an attacking force as well. Yes, he miscued that header, but he was in the box at the back post, getting on the end of Adam Wharton's... You ever had one of those nosebleed when you get up the other end? No, no, no. We'll move on. Tony, you'd have buried that one.

16:26Yeah, I'd like to think so. I'll tell you what as well made me laugh. How many managers do you think can do that slide and get up pretty quickly. Because when he slid down, I'm thinking there's probably nearly 80 % of managers that will be struggling to take them five minutes to get up. He literally bounced up, didn't he? Not done the shoulder or something. I wanted to come on to the man I kind of tease there, Adam Wharton, because he felt like a night and maybe as well in recent weeks where you look at that team and as I say, over the years, we've looked at the team and gone, Elise, he'll go at some point.

16:55Eze, he'll go at some point. Gay as well. Felt for him last night. Yeah. Felt for him, because I kept thinking, you know, he's been left out of the England squad. That's a hard blow to take. And then Jordan Henderson, who had a similar game. And Walton's one of his outstanding features. He's just incredible to do, but very difficult, is the one-touch pass. He very rarely takes a touch. He will do it if it's necessary, but the amount of times it comes to him and he just goes straightaway, pop, he's off to the next ball, which is great for the player receiving the ball because he's giving them half a second.

17:29And great for, if you're playing in front of him, presumably, in a striker's role. Gregor, this is something you've actually talked about on this podcast and wrote a brilliant piece about on the Times. That kind of knowing that pass is going to come. You can make runs, you can plan your attacking game around it.

17:42Gregor Robertson: Yeah, I remember being at a game against Manchester United earlier in the season and he played one pass in particular that basically spawned an idea for, as you say, about 1 ,200 words on just his ridiculous vision. And ability, which I think is one of the great joys in watching football live, is seeing someone do something that you didn't even anticipate or know was like, could think it was going to happen. Like you didn't see the pass that he's just managed to see on the pitch and actually execute as well. There was one that he got in the first half where it was played inside, like halfway inside his own half.

18:16Gregor Robertson: And he's basically facing the touchline and he just whipped a ball down the channel in between the opposition fullback and centre half, like between, there's a either needle pass for Mateta to run onto and he had a chance on goal from inside his own half facing his own like you know sideline it was like I didn't see that and he just executed it on the pitch and he does that all the time so yeah like I also like his attitude I like the way he said after this game you know he's asked about it I'm not going to cry about not getting England in this England squad like hopefully there'll be World Cups and Euros and major tournaments ahead for me to come and I'll be part of them that's a good attitude to have for a young player.

18:57I think there's a lot to be said for that. He's took it on the chin. And it didn't affect his performance at all. If anything, it looked like it spared him off. I mean, he took them, didn't he, in the second half? You know, the goal comes from his run. He was like, give me the ball all the time. He looked like the talisman in that team now. I mean, he and Glasner and things then come on to the part that we have to come to. Sorry, Crystal Palace fans. About this club, because we've spoken to the model. We've spoken to how things go. So the best manager they've had in generations is leaving. You would imagine there would be quite a queue of clubs interested in Adam Wharton.

19:31He plays in that midfield two position, which is so hotly desired, isn't it? Think of any of the big clubs in England. Liverpool would improve with Adam Wharton. Man United would improve with Adam Wharton. Man City, we believe, are going for Elliot Anderson, but I think he'd probably do a good job for them. If Enzo Fernandes leaves Chelsea, You find it hard to believe, don't you? How do Crystal Palace cope with that? We've praised Steve Parrish, but it's a big summer for him now, isn't it? One thing that I think from a... I live close to... It's the closest ground to where I live and I've got a lot of Palace fans around me.

20:09One thing they've always felt that Palace have, say, got wrong, but because of the way their model of their club is that they're quite redundant in buying. They're always selling big names. and Brennan Johnson come in for£35 million in January. So they sort of do it on their... I think their record bias was Ben TK up until... Yeah, Brennan Johnson. Yeah, so£30 million,£35 million. That was quite a long time ago. And they've never been an aggressive club in the transfer market where they'll buy, buy and put themselves at risk. You can applaud that as well. But a lot of people go from Palace. It's a conveyor belt of going out the club.

20:47And Walton's there where now it's going to be how do you keep him? Unless he's going to be Wilfred Zahar, who loved the club so much, he was always prepared to stay no matter what. The door is going to be open for Adam Walton because there's a lot of people. You can only admire what Gregor said when he did the 1 ,200 word piece. Which is hard to do on someone who's just talking really about the first start. He could have done 2 ,000. If you watch the lad, and I've been lucky enough to watch him enough times, I saw him at the start of the season when he had just come back from an injury and I was like, he hasn't got up to speed.

21:24But now he's up to speed. He looks like a player that's so comfortable on the ball. Just coming back to England, can we think of a... I mean, I'm slightly dismissive in asking the question, but can we think of why he's not in the England squad? Because, I mean, he... I got my gut feeling. He's one of the players that Johnny Northcroft mentioned in a special England preview show that will be out next week to listen and watch on YouTube. But he's one of the players that Johnny mentioned that has that ability with a pass that you could bring him on for the last 20 minutes of a stodgy type game and he makes those passes you're talking about.

21:53Why would he not have been picked? I still think he's fighting

21:57Gregor Robertson: a perception about his sort of athleticism and maybe a lack of it in an increasingly quick, dynamic, powerful game. You think just because he's got that style of like socks down? Yeah. And he's actually really, you know, when I do that piece, you look to some of the stats and I think he'd, you like one more tackles than any other midfielder in the Premier League. He's quite combative. He can put his foot in. But he does have that sort of language style and he does kind of... It's not that he's strolling around the pitch. He just looks like he's strolling around the pitch. And he's an elegant runner.

22:28Gregor Robertson: But the game, particularly in midfield nowadays, you think about the man who's got his place, Elliot Anderson. He's just that bit more kind of, I don't know, sharp and... Tenacious. Snappy and dynamic. Yeah, slightly more tenacious, yeah. And there's not much in it. He's an all-around player as well. Could Elliot Anderson do the one-touch pass as well as Wharton? Not quite. Elliot Anderson is a great player. He's got great skill set and great broad skill set. But Wharton has got something that there's not many other... In fact, there's no other English player he really has in terms of being able to play those really cultured balls in behind, those first-time balls are in the corner, to be able to basically turn defence into attack on the half-turn in an instant.

23:22So you've got to ask who was he up against. It was quite obviously Jordan Henderson. And you could look at it and say how much football would have Walton played. With the same question you could have asked of Jordan Henderson, how much football will he play? And I thought Tuchel answered the question a while back about the influence of Henderson on the rest of the group. and you're taking a player that probably won't start. Yeah. I wouldn't have done it. And I'm not just saying this now. You wouldn't have taken him. No, I would have taken Walton all day long over Jordan Henderson purely because I just think you're talking about a 35-year-old against a man much younger that would come on and do that.

24:00Because Jordan Henderson was good at the one-touch pass as well. He had great vision. He could see things and do them quickly. I don't think after watching Jordan, and he's done okay with Brentford. I wouldn't go much more than that when I've watched him it's an opinion choice

24:17Gregor Robertson: isn't it just coming back finally to Palace it's a big summer ahead and Wharton yes I'm sure there will be suitors might depend on the price for so long Tony's talking about there never been big movers in the transfer market they haven't but they've been canny think about the players that they signed from the Championship Eze, Alise, Wharton Romain Essay is someone who went on loan to Coventry at the end. I still think he possibly has a chance of playing at the Premier League. And Mune is coming in. And Lacroix. They've been great signings. Dougie Freeman was the man who was the author of a lot of that.

24:54Gregor Robertson: And he's no longer at the club. So there's a bit of a vacuum there. And what comes next? I think there's a bit of a rebuild probably ahead for Palace. That's obvious when they're going to lose their manager and there's some players who are going to be highly sought after but I think more broadly as I kind of the way they operate going into next season it's a big summer is there a manager that we can think of it's a big question an impossible question but is there any in the Premier League there's so much movement going about anyone that comes to management is so hard you're second guessing there you're finding names out you know would you know I've heard links with Celtic to Robbie Keane I've heard links with Robbie Keane to Crystal Palace and you know but it's it's the hardest gig in the world to predict where a manager's Yeah, yeah.

25:36It really is. Yeah. I mean, they did pretty well picking Oliver Glasner. Yeah. Who would have known Oliver Glasner before he got to Palace? So fair play to Palace. And then for Glasner himself, I mean, everything Kit outlined there as well is straight talking. He's great for us journalists in press conferences quite a lot of the time. He's done amazing. He's given us two of the great stories of the last two seasons. There were suggestions at various times, you know, Manchester United, Chelsea. Both of those doors have closed. Do we think he'll get another chance in the Premier League soon or do you think it'd be a case of he maybe goes back to elsewhere in Europe and that we might see him again further down the line when Man United have got sick of Michael Carrick in six months?

26:13Gregor Robertson: I think there's a good chance he'll get another opportunity in the Premier League. I think the point Kit made was a really good one. I was thinking it just before he said it. We spoke about, and Tony admitted, that everyone thought he's maybe kind of blown up his chances here. He looks a bit too hot to handle maybe sometimes when things aren't going his way. but he's kind of rectified that and he's probably bolstered his own reputation as well in the end of the season the way that they've patched things up and he's won another trophy so yeah look he might go to Europe it's going to be a fascinating summer as you say some of the big jobs that he was linked with are disappearing but I still think over the course of the next year if he's on the market someone would definitely go for Oliver Gossett I would just add on this briefly Tom that I don't think I've seen anyone use that formation better than him.

27:07I think, you know, whether you go it's a five at the back or a three, two, pushing on the fullbacks, he's done it brilliantly because they defend, you look at them generally, they defend so well with that formation. Yeah, absolutely. Tony, we should just mention we had a brilliant Times event live game podcast the other night and I met young Luke who was there in a Crystal Palace shirt. He said defiantly, Tone. I asked him, he was like, yeah, we'll win, no problem. So congratulations to Luke as well. and he's asked a question, Gregor, that we're going to bring up in the Scotland preview show. Luke, as well, I think one of your mates was there as well.

27:38Tell him to email me in with a question as well, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. But congratulations to all Crystal Palace fans, including Joe Hare and business editor at the Times, Richard Fletcher, and mainly Adam Wharton's mum. What a brilliant part of the story she has been. Absolutely fantastic being serenaded by Palace fans. If you're a Palace fan as well, do get in touch with me for what you think might happen next. Time for a quick break. We're going to come back. We're going to talk about the big Champions League final between PSG and Arsenal. There's a Champions League-themed quiz from Bill Edgar on the Times website now.

28:09So a little question from that to take us into the break. Which of the following clubs have lost a European Cup or Champions League final to English opponents more than once, doing so three times, in fact? Benfica, Real Madrid, AC Milan or Bayern Munich? Find out after the break.

28:38welcome back to the game football podcast from the times and sunday times i'm tom clark and i've got gregor robertson and tony cascarino with me a little tricky today's quiz question tony went for ac milan yeah i'm wrong by munich by munich losing three times of course astonville and manchester united and chelsea across different european competitions arsenal fans psg fans as well i I think we've acquired a few new listeners in France over the last couple of weeks. We're going to come on to the big tactical breakdown of that final in just a second. But I wanted to do a reaction to some news on the Times website in the last 24 hours about Anthony Gordon, another member of England's talented group, set to complete a£70 million transfer to Barcelona.

29:20We knew he was linked with Bayern Munich, of course, a couple of weeks ago. Konstantin Ekner and Martin Hardy bringing you that news. but then the story yesterday, Barcelona basically set to complete a move for Anthony Gordon. Before we get on to what that means for Marcus Rashford, another England left winger who's been doing pretty well at Barcelona, chaps, your reaction to this? I was just talking with Martin Hardy this morning about it, just even from an optics point of view, it's quite brilliant, isn't it? To see a lad from Merseyside who played for Newcastle moving to Barcelona for£70 million, it's a brilliant move for Anthony Gordon.

29:51What's the reaction to it? I'm surprised because I did think that, obviously, Rashford, they might have come to some agreement with his contract and the wages, which obviously is an issue. Andy Gordon's had an incredible European campaign where he's scored a number of goals for Newcastle. Not so much in the league. He seemed like he was probably determined to leave the club, but I didn't think. I mean, he's amazing sometimes in football. You assume or you're told that the club's got no money and they suddenly find money in the back of the couch and then suddenly they stump up 70 million. And it does make me laugh because that club went through the absolute ringer years before with incredible from Griezmann to Lionel Messi to Coutinho, where wages were just so enormous that it nearly bankrupted the football club.

30:45So they're not going to that level, obviously. But Anthony Gordon, at his very best, is a handful. I always think he's quite direct. A£70 million handful, though? On his good day, you would go yes. You know, I think worth a go. Because he's quite direct. He'll run at a full-back and always want to fall back to... You know, Greg is a full-back, so he'll tell me about having people who want to run at him all the time. Gordon does that really well. And when he's confident, he's not a bad finisher. I mean, he's played different positions centre-forward as well, but he's not that. For me, he's a sort of throwback to the winger who wants to get past the full-back.

31:19Gregor Robertson: Gregor? Look, I think the fact that both Bayern Munich and Barcelona were courting him is a good sign about his talents and his level. And it's great. It's an amazing period, this, for English football. You've got to just zoom out for a minute. You've got Jude Bellingham and Trent Alexander-Arnold at Real Madrid. You've got Anthony Gordon and possibly Marcus Rashford who may speak about his future there now, Barcelona. And, like, you know, I know the strength... Harry Kane bossing at Bayern Munich, of course. Yeah, I know the strength of the Premier League is a big part of that conversation, but these are super clubs.

31:51Gregor Robertson: It's not just like, you know, a lot of players have gone to Serie A because it's slightly weaker in the Premier League now than it was historically, but that's not the case when you're talking about Barcelona and Bayern Munich and Real Madrid. So it's a great period for English football and its talent. And I think, I've thought for a long time, Gordon is an elite player. Right. I think part of it is his mentality he's always from the very start been someone who's just pushed himself to his very limits and had a real belief about himself and that he could play on any stage I remember he's kind of I think when he made his it may not be in his debut but one of his first games for England against it was against Brazil and he's interviewed after he's like no I've always known I would get to this level and it's the same when in the Champions League I've always known I would get to this level and now I think he's outgrown Newcastle and that's not a slight on Newcastle I just think he's in a rush he doesn't want to be hanging around to see where this project goes next and whether they can take the next step yes he's played in the Champions League and as Tony said he's scored 10 goals over the season but he's ready to take the next step to a club that can compete for the Champions League and I think he deserves to get that myth I was lucky enough in my lifetime as a player to get a chance to go and play for Marseille so think of it as a chance to go to Barcelona with all the history of the football club.

33:15Yeah, amazing opportunity for him. Just a word for Marcus Rashford. Obviously, we don't know the exact financial structures of all these deals and things, but speaking to Ian Hawkey, who's going to be writing a piece for the Times website later on today about the Barcelona side of these things. For Marcus Rashford, he's played pretty well for Barcelona. He's had some big moments for them this season, playing in exactly the same position. Rashford and Gordon are the two left-wingers going to the World Cup. You've got Barcelona going, well I'm not sure about paying the fee that's believed to be around£25 million to get you out of Manchester United yes Marcus Rashford probably does have much bigger wages than Anthony Gordon but it's an interesting move isn't it and it puts Rashford in an interesting position where maybe I feel slightly sorry for him what do we think?

34:00Sometimes you can earn too much money well maybe that's part of the problem

34:04Gregor Robertson: he can take a drop in his wages if he wants to if he's leaving Manchester United it was a different story when he was on loan and you've got to cover the wages between them. But if he's going there on a permanent move, he can take a drop on his wages if he really wants to do it. So yes, I'm sure Anthony Gordon was cheaper in that regard. I don't know. It's a funny, it's a tough one because Rashford, yeah, he did sort of, he did rekindle some of his best form during periods in his time at Barcelona. But I would still kind of look at Gordon now and think there's more, there's a kind of longer and brighter future.

34:37Well, I was going to say, yeah, Anthony Gordon, 25, Marcus Rashford, 28. I guess the question is, at 28, will Anthony Gordon be better than Marcus Rashford? I think potentially, yes.

34:46Gregor Robertson: Yeah, was Rashford better at 25? That's a different question. Probably. It's interesting, isn't it? Again, I'll come back to the kind of mentality, like the drive and the desire to make everything of himself and be the best he can be. That's been slightly queried a little bit with Rashford over the last couple of years. Some of that's maybe not fair, but there have been moments where he's looked to have lost his way a little bit. I don't think that's ever going to happen with Anthony Gordon. There might be reasons for Rashford losing his way a little bit. But I think if you were to look at those two players and say, which one has got the brighter future right now, it's Anthony Gordon.

35:27Gregor's made a really valid point on, you can take a wage cut. If you really want to see them move to a big European club, where they may go, we can't pay whatever, £400 ,000 a week.

35:38Gregor Robertson: And I think he did actually earn the loan. I think he did forego a bit of his money at Man United. Well, it'd be far more harder on a permanent, wouldn't it? Indeed, yeah. Than doing a short-term deal. But he can do. If he wants to keep playing his football and maybe, you know, have a longer career. Because once you get to... When Rashford ends his contract at Man United, what will he be? 30, 31, we assume, yeah? Yeah, I think he's got a good couple of years left. So if he ends up being in the wilderness of Manchester United and just goes back and collecting his wages, there'll be less options at 30 or 31 for him than there are now.

36:12But even that's fascinating as well, isn't it? And it doesn't look like this is going to be the case. We believe that the wages are such that Manchester United just want to end that relationship. Not in a bad way in that Marcus Rashford also wants to end the relationship. But it is fascinating that they've now gone back to a tactical system under Michael Carrick, a person he'll know, where they're playing with a bloke off the left wing who they want to run in. I mean, all the chat from Paul Hurst and all the kind of Manchester United fans is, oh, we need a guy off the left. We need to sign a guy off the left.

36:37And you're like, you've got one. You know, you literally got one right here. But he's made a rod for his own back then because of, you know, wanting to leave and the way he left the Manchester United. And we believe, yeah, as I say, maybe it is time to move on. But a fascinating situation with Manchester United, Marcus Rashford. Maybe football wages have finally hit the peak, guys. Maybe it's no further for them to go. Do you think? There's an interesting debate maybe for the off-season. So let's get in to the big game. We've had a win for Aston Villa in the Europa League. We've had a win for Crystal Palace in the Conference League.

37:09Now comes the big one, the real, real test. And the one that maybe no one is expecting Arsenal to deliver on the Champions League final. Saturday night, PSG. The holders, of course, against Mikel Arteta's Arsenal. This is a match we've talked about and teased before when we were discussing the semi-finals and the conclusions. but I wanted to get into the game and some of the battles that are going to be going on across the pitch because I can't think of many games where there's some really elite players in their positions who are going to be going head to head with each other and so I wanted to kind of work through the pitch maybe talk about which is the most important battle I mean I'm fascinated by Bukayo Saka against Nuno Mendes for example how is that going to work?

37:51Is Saka going to track back? Is he going to stay up? Are they going to be brave enough? because that's a part of the way that you can potentially get at PSG, isn't it? If you're brave enough to try and let Saka get some space, it's all fascinating. What would you say, Gregor, is the key battle for you if you had to pick one? And I appreciate you could probably pick six.

38:09Gregor Robertson: I mean, as much as you're kind of inclined to look at an Arsenal perspective and how they can hurt PSG, I actually think how they can shackle or attempt to shackle Kvarickeli and Dewey, most likely. could be the most important thing for them because they, on their day, have been unplayable and they're going to have to do a lot of defending, like if it's the state and the obvious, but those 1v1 duels in particular have been moments that have just won the game for them and completely destroyed Bayern Munich, for example, as well. So I think the way that they deal with PSG's wingers is arguably going to be the most important thing for Arsenal.

38:53And is this going to be, you talked and praised Saliba and Gabriel so much on this show, and quite rightly, what a great partnership they are, what great defenders they are individually. You also said something that I found fascinating in terms of trying to stop PSG as a centre-half, and that you've got no one to actually watch. You've got to try and work out which of the midfielders, full-backs, whoever it is who's making a run, do you go, do you stay back? That's a huge test for them. Normally they have someone play on them, Gabriel wrestling with Haaland, and things like that, but they've not got that this time, have they?

39:26It's a different test entirely.

39:27Gregor Robertson: Yeah, for two centre-halves who relish the physical battle, they likely won't have one, which is a... Look, they've played in these kind of games before against this kind of opposition where clearly that's one of their big strengths, but they're smart as well and they're athletic and they can read the game well, but they're going to have to read it better than they really ever have before if they're going to deal with all the movement around them and players popping up from all over the place, like full-backs turning up at number 10. Is Hakimi going to be fit? Do we know? Well, that's one of the big questions, isn't it?

39:59There's a couple of fitness things, isn't there, of course, obviously with Arsenal's full-back situation as well. I mean, Tony, following up Gregor's point, I want to work basically through the team because I think it's a fascinating battle all over the pitch. You've got two great tacticians, Enrique and Arteta, going head-to-head as well. To some of the points Gregor's made first, Tony. Well, I think it's obvious what Gregor and I would say that wide areas from full-backs to wingers is a massive challenge on either side of the team because Dwayne is an exceptional talent. Carrasquillio is the closest thing I've seen for a younger viewers who haven't seen George Best, but I think he's like a big version of Best.

40:34You know, like a bit taller, but will go inside you, he'll go outside you. And by the way, he didn't have a great start to the season at PSG. He was in and out of the team at times, found his form like PSG did the year before in sort of February time. He's an handful. I think Saka can get behind Mendes because Alissa called Mendes a lot of problems in the leg at PSG, didn't he? And a part of the France. I think there's the centre-half, Marquinhos. Who is better suited? Is it Havertz or Jokeres? That was going to be my question. Who is better suited? Well, I personally think Jokeres because Marquinhos is a bit more of a wants-to-get-on-the-ball-and-play than a more natural centre-half.

41:15And he's a terrific footballer. And I think he would prefer to have Havertz because habits will drop into areas where I feel like Jokeres will battle a bit more. But the biggest battle of the two is the two managers. Well, I was going to finish with that, but will Jokeres as well potentially help stretch the pitch? We've seen it in the second half of the season. We saw it against Leicester and Madrid running behind. Gary Jacob in his piece, talking about Arsenal's season, had a really fascinating bit talking about Gabriel Aitse, who's been a massive part of the coaching success. How he came in and has just made Arsenal a bit nastier.

41:47And about halfway through the season, having worked with the defence, when you lot are sorted. Victor, come here. And just bulked him up a bit, made him a bit nasty, a bit streetwise and said, get after them, get into them. Is that what you're talking about as well, where he can try and help make space for Saka and the other players? He's never been the quickest, but he's found half a yard over the course of the season by being even fitter than he was. And he did it quite a lot at Lisbon, sporting Lisbon, dragged people, didn't he? He dragged people into the channel areas. But he looks like he's, for me, he just looks like he's matured a bit more, as a more rounded player.

42:20Gregor Robertson: Yeah. So I think he will hurt a little bit more than that. And I think, actually, when you think about how he played in the Athletical Games, and particularly the second leg, when there was some space to exploit, which he's not had much of in the Premier League, and that was his best performance in an Arsenal shirt. And he's going to have, one thing you say about PSG is they leave space because everyone attacks. So he'll actually have an opportunity to do what he does best more, I think, in this game. but he's still playing against some incredible athletes and he's going to have to hold the ball which is not always, I said even in that athletic game, I know he was lauded but there were moments where I was thinking control it, just stop wrestling with him just actually bring the ball down and bring someone to play So you're asking someone to get up the pitch will they?

43:04If he doesn't do that Arsenal are going to find it really hard to get up the pitch On the other side as well, Tony you make a good point about Mendes being caused problems by Alise and obviously that will be the outlet for Arsenal but as Hamza and all of you so rightly point out a lot of the time with Saka, he gets doubled up on because he's so clearly their main attacking threat. And the other thing with Bayern is that they had Diaz on the other side, so that if they went for Elisa, you can go for Diaz. Where do Arsenal go on the other side? Because Trossard's played recently. What option do they pick?

43:33I think he trusts Trossard a bit more. I don't know why, because he isn't... He's that player like Lundberg used to be for Arsenal, where he's not necessarily the most technical, but he's always a streetwise footballer, Trossard, where I think I just feel that I'd have to trust him a little bit more.

43:50Gregor Robertson: For that battle as well early on, maybe. Well, yeah, and keeping the ball. I think in the defensive role, like you said, that's slightly more disciplined. I also saw a stat earlier where Arsenal with Saka, Giocherez and Trossard starting have a 92 % win percentage compared to 56 % with other combinations. Interesting. So it's like that, I think actually, although maybe it wouldn't have been at the start of the season, that has probably become Arteta's favoured front three. And then that 10-roll then, in terms of... And bring in midfield as well, because, I mean, it's another part of PSG's strength, isn't it?

44:23That midfield, I mean, Vettinia.

44:24Gregor Robertson: Yeah, we've ignored midfield. I've not ignored it, mate. Don't worry. I was building up to it, because I think it's probably the toughest thing to break down and maybe the toughest things for Arsenal to deal with. Because, as you say, you can go Trossard, you can go Jokeres, and those kind of things make sense. But in midfield, you know, does he... Rice will obviously play. Yeah. And he'll have to deliver another talismanic performance for Arsenal. But do you then go Lewis Skelly or Zubomendi? And in front of them, do you go Odegaard or Eze? It's tough. Like, I think we were speaking about this before.

44:57Gregor Robertson: I think Lewis Skelly has done... It's been an amazing turnaround to his season. And just with the sort of sense of momentum that they have with him and the team and a bit more sort of energy and dynamism and sort of I don't know battling qualities Zubimendi has been brilliant he's been a great signing he had a bit of a lull and he's a he's a very different player he's like the metronome he's a bit like their kind of Vitinha although not quite at that same level but I don't know if Arsenal will have enough of the ball and it's whether Arteta can kind of accept that and say in this game the profile we need is more like Lewis Geller we're not going to dominate the ball and I think he probably will lean towards that.

45:41Yeah, I'd agree. I think Lewis Gilley will probably get the nod and Eze or Odegaard.

45:47Gregor Robertson: Sorry, Lewis Gilley, we're also doing him a bit of a disservice. He has that capacity. It's in a very different way to the way we're speaking about with Adam Wharton but he has that capacity to roll a marker, to turn defence into attack with a surge and run or a lot of forward. Good at winning free kicks as well. Yeah, and he'll whip the pass into the 10 or into Giocares. So he has those qualities too. It's just, it's slightly more dynamic and explosive. It's like he's a moments player like that. And I think that's how the game's going to be for Arsenal. It's not going to be about trying to keep the ball.

46:20Gregor Robertson: Because PSG, as we said, one of their great qualities is the way they hound you. And I think Arsenal's best opportunity might be the way, as I referred to with Jokic, that they played for a lot of the game against Atletico, which is quite direct. So you can't go toe-to-toe. No, of course. Bayern Munich's tactic was brave and incredible and they might have got through. Let's out the press. You can't go down the road of toe-to-toe. Just finally having gone through the team, Eze or Odegaard. Tough. Got your captain. I probably think Odegaard will get it. I think he probably will get it. Why? Just experience or...?

46:56Gregor Robertson: And the defensive discipline. Same thing we're talking about with Drossard. I still think there's a fraction of a question about Eze in those moments. Yeah, I would add to that on Gregor, what you were saying, the ability to hold the ball. Obviously, Odegaard can keep it and take a touch, take another touch and keep the ball more. Where Eze, at times, has lost the ball and they've countered quickly against Arsenal. Yeah. In terms of then tactics then, and you said, Tony, Enrique Arteta is the ultimate battle in this. We know how PSG are going to play, basically every way you could possibly imagine.

47:28In terms of Arsenal and Arteta, did it come back to the selections as well then? And I'm kind of foreseeing a scenario in which Arteta, you know, it's nil-nil at 60 minutes. Off comes Odegaard, off comes Trossard. Potentially off comes Lewis Skelly, on comes Zubimendi, on comes Eze, on comes one of the wide players maybe. Maybe off comes Jokeres. Is that how he approaches this? Obviously set pieces are huge for Arsenal as well. When we've just outlined that team, I think one of the things that's striking is maybe something you said on Monday's show, Tony, about physicality, height, simple things in football, but they do make a difference.

48:01How do we think Arteta approaches it?

48:04Gregor Robertson: Yeah, Luceppis is going to be one of their biggest weapons. As I said, I think they'll be fairly pragmatic about it. I think they'll be trying to have a solid foundation and they'll try and get the ball forward quickly when they want it back. They won't be able to do that all night, you know. You'll blow a gasket. You've got to keep the ball at times, but I think they'll try and get the ball up to Jocares quickly and get some support with them. And stemming the tide, the PSG tide, is the challenge over 90 minutes or possibly longer. I don't think they'll be able to do it. So they're going to have to find a way to score a goal.

48:43Gregor Robertson: And it might be that set-pieces are the best way, best opportunity. You only have to look at what PSG did to Liverpool, did to Chelsea, did to Bayern Munich. And the game away at the Parc de France for when Chelsea went there and they ended up going 3-2, I remember thinking, don't try and get back to 3-3. Get them back to the bridge because you just can't end up... Because Chelsea got quite ambitious. They looked like they were really in the game at one period in the early part of the second half. And then from nowhere, they get blown away. And that's what PSG can do to you. If you go to 1-0 down, you can't take huge risks against PSG because you could be out of the game in literally minutes.

49:21Well, that's the other thing. And they've all experienced that. Liverpool experienced that. Bayern Munich experienced that. I have to ask the question. sorry Arsenal fans is anyone worried about an Inter Milan happening we all got excited about that battle no Arsenal way better way better

49:34Gregor Robertson: it's not impossible no it's not no it's not I wouldn't I wouldn't instinctively think so because Arsenal are so good defensively they've got one of the best goalkeepers in the world they've got a centre half kind of partnership which I'd say is probably the best in the world like they don't maybe not going to have their first choice full back on one side Calafiore it's a different challenge you know he's not your typical full back and those 1v1 situations he's good but he's not he's not great and he's coming up and he's not the quickest Douay will be way quicker and he's coming up against like a shimmering talent in Douay so it's a different challenge to any that I kind of really experienced before for most of the season but it's not impossible if PSG really turn it on yeah you're right if we were to sit here and do a composite of the team the two teams of the best 11 yeah you would it would be quite Tom's mind no No, but, you know, because I listened to a debate in midweek and it was like someone who was talking, an ex-pundit, I say an ex-pundit, a pundit, was saying that only two Arsenal players were getting there.

50:38And I was like, I'm not sure about that. If you're looking defensively, I'd go to two centre-halves at Arsenal and I'd definitely have the keeper in front of the PSG keeper and I'd probably even have Rice and maybe Saka on the right, maybe. be, but okay, you could say PSG would probably have 6-5 or 7-4. Yeah. But it's a lot closer. Yeah, I think I'd probably go 7-4 and I can think we know who the final four would be. I just say, you make a good case for Raya and the centre-backs and Rice. I wanted to mention, Greg, it's the subject of a piece that listeners and viewers can read on the Times website.

51:12You're just charting this amazing Rice, because this show has been a lot about amazing Rises, Crystal Palace, a lot of their players. this is an amazing moment for a man who, at one point in his career, if you told him he was going to be in the Champions League final as one of the best goalkeepers in the world, not a lot of people would have believed you.

51:28Gregor Robertson: Yes, it's been an extraordinary rise. Every football career has sliding doors moments, but he's had a few. He's really had a few. The first was actually the fact that, as a 15-year-old, he was scouted by Blackburn Rovers, playing for Cornea, which is like a third tier team in the shadow of Barcelona in Catalonia. And actually I spoke to the scout that kind of found him and he'd gone to watch a different player. He'd gone to watch a fullback and the fullback wasn't playing that day. And then the manager came over and said, just have a look at the goalkeeper. And he watched him and he thought, my God, he's great with his feet.

52:06Gregor Robertson: And, you know, you can tell he's got a great kind of personality on the pitch and stuff, but he's not very big. and he had to persuade Blackburn to pay the 15 ,000 euros it cost to buy him. That was a lot of money for Blackburn, cash strapped at the time. So that was one. And then, you know, he went on loan to Southport in the National League and his first four games, he shipped 10 goals. The manager got the sack and he's like looking around, he's had to wash his own kit, clean his boots. He's training at a university on a spare pitch and like seeing guys get home at four in the morning from Gateshead or wherever and go to work the next day.

52:40Gregor Robertson: And he thought, this is wow I don't want to be at this level then he got in the team at Blackburn then there was loads of managerial churn he got knocked out of the team they were relegated to League One then he got back in the team then he got moved to Brentford and the story about the way the day he got like Brentford were convinced to sign him was really interesting because I think they beat Blackburn 5-1 that day and we saw how brave he continued to be in possession and thought yeah he's they'd already scouted him they thought no, he's still the one for us. And then you think about the extraordinary debate, his signing at Arsenal stirred up.

53:17Gregor Robertson: Yeah, who's number one? Because there was so much love for Aaron Ramsdale and he was our sort of undisputed number one. And you think about it, he made a couple of mistakes at Luton when they won 4-3 that game. That was probably his lowest point and it really reached fever pitch that day. But Arsenal backed him. And Arteta has spoken this week about that being a really big moment. Even he had to convince his board, to convince Edu, the director of football, that this, they were like, are you sure you want to do this? And he was like, yeah, I want to do it. We need to have a different profile of goalkeeper.

53:48Gregor Robertson: And it's all been vindicated because he's now won the Golden Glove for the third season in a row. He's seen as, his status is one of the best, if not the best goalkeeper in the world. And it's a great, great story. He sounds like a stalker. Yeah. He's got a new favourite, John McGuin. How many kids has he got? He's detailed in his analysis. The one looked right in Marston. Detailed. That was the best analysis I've ever heard. There you go. Well, you can read all of that analysis in Gregor Robinson's brilliant piece on David Riot on the Times website. Let's finish then. And it's up to you. You can make a prediction if you like.

54:27But I think the key question is, how do Arsenal win this final? Because I think they can win it. I think for all the reasons we've talked about, set pieces, height advantage, if they can go man-to-man in some of those areas and try and quell PSG, but they are the underdogs and quite rightly so because of how brilliant the French side are. How do Arsenal win this final, Tony? Well, I've always said from the start of the season, the team you must beat is PSG. They are the best side. But on the flip side of that, and the way I would say, the only team I thought could really get the better of them would be Arsenal.

55:02And, you know, we saw it in the Champions League table where Arsenal were top and PSG were fighting to try and make it to the Champions League knockout stages at one stage. So I'm going to stick by Arsenal, the one team I think that can beat them. Yeah. And what would that be then? Defensively, is it just, you know, fight, physical pragmatism? Being pragmatic, being really well set up as in to stop adventurous teams. I think Arsenal can do that well. And we've watched them struggle against teams that have sat with a low block and many bodies behind, and they frustrated Arsenal. I feel like Arsenal can go against PSG and go, come on then beat us all your brilliant talent all your which they have and one of them is capable of sticking one in the top corner from 30 yards by the way as well but I just think the goalkeeper just is so much of a as Gregor sort of assessed him there he's just produced some miracle saves I think he's capable of doing that Gregor look the one thing

55:59Gregor Robertson: that they should take hope from is the fact that they leave a lot of space and they've conceded quite a lot of goals they're going to get chances if they're brave when they win the ball back and they get the ball forward quickly and they commit some players forward to supporting Giochrez or Havertz or whoever's leading the line so I think there is a route to go for Arsenal and it's not just about set plays everyone's talking about set plays yes they will have an advantage there but I think they'll be able to cause them problems from open play the problem for me is how many like PSG might score.

56:36Gregor Robertson: And as much as Arsenal are a great defensive unit and have all these huge talismanic people at the back, this PSG team are on the verge of greatness. So if Arsenal are to win it, they're not going to win it 1-0 is what you're saying. No, God, no. I'll just add, in all the years we played football, Greg, and you would have played with a number of these as well, when we'd have a training session, you'd do defence against attack. Who normally won? Defence. Yeah. Football clubs, always defence against... I was never playing against PSG. The only thing is the PSG players don't stand and admire. No, they don't.

57:10All the wingers will chase and hustle and get back into position. And it's a danger. I think Arsenal do win, but I'm not ruling out a 1-0. Really? I'm not ruling that out. Just keep a clean sheet. It's hard, Gregor. But I'm not ruling it out. Liverpool went there last year and won 1-0. Although I did say that they'll get beat in the return because PSG play the same as a home as a doorway. Yeah. Alisson produced a brilliant performance in goal that night, so maybe David Rea will need the game of his life.

57:38Gregor Robertson: And they're Premier League champions. They're liberated now. There's a different vibe going into this final. They should just, like, feel this is an incredible opportunity and they should be full of confidence and who knows. Yeah. There you go, Arsenal fans. Just relish it. It's fine. It's just a Champions League final against PSG. What is there to worry about? Loads of great analysis. from Tony Cascarino and Gregor Robertson. And there'll be plenty more to come on the Times website in the coming days from Gary Jacob, Ian Hawkey. So make sure you keep checking it out. But chaps, thank you very much for joining me.

58:10Thank you too for Kit Shepard for joining us as well. Thank you for listening. We'll be back on Monday to review that Champions League final. We'll see you then.