Arsenal's big signing? Iraola to Liverpool?

0:00Since he got out, bad things keep happening. Cape Fear is streaming on the 5th of June on Apple TV. Live when I want to hurt you. Starring Academy Award winner Javier Bardem. Live. And Academy Award nominee Amy Adams. He is coming after my family.

0:24Cape Fear, streaming on Apple TV on the 5th of June. Subscription required. Quick question. When was the last time a display ad changed your mind? Now think about the last time a friend told you about something they loved. Different feeling, right? That's how podcast advertising works. A host who's built real trust with their audience talks about your brand in their own words, in their own voice. It doesn't interrupt the experience. It's part of it. With Acast, you can access the world's largest podcast marketplace. Choose the right shows, the right audiences, the right format. Then watch the data tell you it worked.

1:00You're not buying impressions. You're buying influence. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.

1:33We'll also discuss the huge news from Merseyside as Liverpool sack Arna Slott, but is Andoni Iraiola the right man to replace him? And we'll look at some worrying developments for Scotland and England ahead of the World Cup. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the former Millwall, Marseille and Ireland striker Tony Cascarino, and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is alongside me as usual. Team, here we are. Just, you can't stop the stories, can you? You cannot stop the stories. I honestly just thought this would be a Champions League final review.

2:05Maybe a little tease to the World Cup. Maybe throw in like a mad silly idea like I always do. End of season awards. Income Liverpool. This means more. We're a bit different. Not anymore, guys. Thankfully, we have two of Liverpool's biggest fans in journalism on the show to dissect that. But that will be coming up in part two. Let's start with the Champions League final. Arsenal heartbreakingly close to winning, to beating the great PSG. Let's start with just reflections on the game. How we felt it panned out. Gregor, you and I and Tony discussed it in detail on Thursday. We said they had a chance and so it proved.

2:38Falling just short at the end. What caught your eye in this game? It can be penalties, it can be tactics. Where do you want to start us off? I think there's been a bit of, sometimes thinly veiled, sometimes not criticism of Arsenal in the wake of this because they had, I think, the lowest share of the ball of any team to have 11 men on the pitch in Mikel Arteta's reign. I think when you're playing you're coming up against PSG who are the best team in Europe and by virtue of the world as well and as I said before the game they're on the verge of greatness I think this was the way to approach the game the way they approached it it was almost perfect the game plan I mean they got some fortune with the fact that they took they took the lead it was like a fortunate deflection and then a great finish bit of moment of fortune and that enabled them to to really hold on to that game plan but I think this idea that it's like a missed opportunity because of the way they approached it is wrong I think they came so close to winning it they came to within a penalty kick of winning it the way they did and I think sometimes in this job like we're far too sort of reactive to something that is that much like half a percent if they'd won the Champions League and they'd won a double we'd be talking about a historic team and a team that did it their way and I also think we're talking about how they're going to evolve and stuff I'm not sure there's as much evolution needed as some people are suggesting as well Yeah well we'll come on to the evolution point in a second but Tony you were the other person on Thursday's show analysing what might happen tactically Greg has set it out there as a good starting point for the debate what do you and Alison think about Greg's point that actually this kind of revisionism after the game of going oh they should have gone for it more and oh it was negative You can't Tom No You can't do that You can't do that against PSG.

4:29A lot of people are. A lot of people are. Yeah, I mean, thinking that you're going to open up and make it easier for them, Arsenal done a great job. And look, they've got a world-class goalkeeper. They've got two centre-halves that are as good as any in Europe that can stop and deny, fill spaces, make it as hard as they did for PSG. And PSG were having a rough time. They had possession of the ball, but it wasn't like Rad made save after save. Now, I mean, there were some disappointing aspects of it because I think even Mikel Arteta would look at it and go, we just, at times when we did get the ball back, we lost it so quickly.

5:06Whether it was Trossard on the left, whether it was Martin Odegaard in sort of the number 10 role. And Avets, sometimes it bounced off him later off Jokeres as well. They were the disappointing things. Saka was sort of redundant, but he was doubling up against the full-back, Mosquerera, to stop, you know, Cavuskier. So there was lots of jobs that were done brilliantly well. The penalty was a moment where you just know that was going to happen. I felt as it was getting close. As in conceding the penalty. It looked like it was going to concede something. And I applaud them for the way they went about it.

5:43I don't think they had the players to go any other way. They don't have Alisse Kane and Luis Diaz, as Bayern did, to go and get goals and go off. They don't have that forward line. You've teased a few good talking points as well there in terms of players who maybe didn't quite deliver when they had the ball. I'll come back to that in a second. But, Alison, just on the tactics, the guys have had their say there. This was the only way to approach the game in terms of how the game then progressed? Well, I was... Well, first of all, shall I do the whole show in the voice you pretended I have in the previous...

6:09She's done it! She's done it! She's done it! She listened. Very poshly, apparently. Excellent. Excellent. I'm from the north. I don't... Anyway, I won't talk in that. I think we'll call that a little nibble. Just a little. While I was watching the game, I could see perfectly well why Arteta had set them up the way they did. And Arsenal's strength is in their defence. And it was, at times, quite impressive how well they were sucking the life out of the game and giving some of the world's greatest forwards so little space in which to operate. It took a really quite stunning little manoeuvre for them to win the penalty.

6:50in a tight space. I could see that. But I just don't feel Arteta thought that through. If you're going to play like that, the outcome is very highly likely to be a penalty shootout. And if you know you're going to have a penalty shootout, why don't you prepare better for the penalty shootout? In fact, it's been a thing throughout my entire... 32 years I've been writing about football and throughout the whole time, I have been absolutely baffled why managers do not prepare better for the penalty shootout, which decides games. How do we know how well they prepared, though? I mean, one issue was they didn't have a lot of their first-choice penalty takers on the pitch.

7:23I know that's part of preparation. You should know that's going to happen. I wouldn't go so far as to argue there comes a point where you're thinking, oh, Saka, Odegaard, they're tired, but maybe I should keep them on because we're going to go to penalties. I wouldn't go that far because you then are in danger of ceding even more possession in space and losing it in open play. he's been very strict throughout the season on the minutes he's given players particularly the ones that have been coming back from injury so he would have known which players wouldn't last the full time and extra time therefore you plot you spend a lot of time it should not be an afterthought how you set up your penalty shootout and to say that Gabriel takes on because he's a good character apparently he's the nicest bloke at the club and therefore you know he's the sort of character that would say, don't worry boss, I'll take one if we don't have our standard penalty table.

8:20Which is what Gareth Southgate did in 96, wasn't it? Yes, but that's not how you do it. It's not about how brave you are or how nice you are. It's about relentless practice and knowing from relentless practice how those players operate under pressure. I believe you can recreate pressure. I believe you can be scientific about it. Football has moved into science about how players are. are recruited. And suddenly it becomes this complete ad hoc emotional moment. How do we know that? I think it's ridiculous to suggest that they allowed Gabriel to take one of the first five penalties without him practising and without him seeing him do it.

8:55He had recently practised. But it's not in his thing to take his penalty pressure. Are you suggesting then that the line-up and the tactics, given how well they worked, should have been adapted so that more of those penalty takers were either on the pitch or on the bench to come up? That would have been one way of doing it, yes, to have switched things around so you were in a position to bring on penalty takers at a certain point in the game. But to have... I mean, Eze is a penalty taker and he missed. It's the Champions League final. We do not know the pressure about that situation. You see them walking up to the ball and millions and millions of people around the world and everyone's eyes are on them in that moment.

9:36Eze is a good penalty taker. Eze is a skilful player. He's someone you'd say, yeah, I'd quite like to see him taking a penalty. and he stuck it wide of the post. That's football. People should have said that style of penalty should not be allowed in the most high-profile game they'll ever play. It's hard to tell a footballer what style you should take a penalty. I agree with you. I was told what type of penalty I should take. I was given no uncertain terms in World Cup 90. Low and hard and don't do anything else and don't try and be clever. That was it with Ireland if you came up to take a penalty.

10:10No, I did take a penalty. I was told that before. You were told how to do it. The weeks leading up to the World Cup, because you know that World Cup, you're going to probably be in a penalty show-out. Most teams, even teams that win it, will have a penalty show-out so often. We practised all week with penalties against Noel Quinn. He was our goalkeeper. It wasn't Paki Bonner, it was Noel Quinn, because he was a better penalty saver than Paki Bonner. Right. Right? No, you laugh, you laugh. Quinny would have bets. He would say to you, because we all did everything. Didn't see that coming. Listen, listen, listen.

10:42This is what happened, right? Quinny said, right, you all get three penalties. If you get three out of three, I've got to give you a tenner. If I save one, you give me a tenner. He cleaned up every day, right? And so when we... And no joking aside, this is a true conversation. When it got to the Romania game and we're going, we're going to stick Quinny in goal, you know, like... But some of us were serious. Like, he's unbelievable at getting... He's a big lad and he kept getting his answers. So you were practising them, but you were told how to take... No, I was told, and others were, don't try and be clever.

11:14You take a penalty, because Jack had... He said, you're not taking a penalty, because I wouldn't be on the field, probably. He said, but if you are, you take one. Don't be clever, just low and hard. But would that work now, though, with the way of players are empowered to... Well, no, you're saying, would it work? Harry Kane does it now. How it's going? Harry Kane does the stutter now. Yeah, yeah. We've seen Harry Kane be a brilliant penalty taker, and you think, oh, God, he's just no nonsense. he's putting in the top corners. Yeah, but Harry Kane's scoring with the stutter. Saka's missed a few.

11:45Sorry, Saka. Eze has missed a few. Hasn't he missed a few? Liverpool, Newcastle with that stutter. I'm sorry, but that technique, I know we've leapt forward. I agree. That technique is incredibly hard to do. I agree. The goalkeeper knows he's just standing there. You look how late the goalkeeper moves. I do think that is interesting that he waited. He knows the data. He's obviously been told. There's loads of data now that goes on with penalty shootout. of what people do, where they stick it, the sort of run-up they have. That goalkeeper, Savinov, knew that Eze was going to run up, do the big arc, and then stutter, and he just stood there.

12:22And he stood to as late as he could, and then in his mind, because if you look at Eze, he looks up at him, and he's literally looking up as he's about to strike it. To me, that's caused the miss, because he now knows that he's whipped it. Look, people miss. This is not calling out Eze for that penalty. It's not one that I would certainly say to my players if I had a team, don't do. Harry Kane is an exception, right? We know that. He's finishing Gregor. There isn't many people that can finish and do the things he does in finishing. Let's come back, because I think there were some good points made about the actual game, and I think you can get into the penalties.

13:01They are and always will be a lottery, no matter how good you are, how much you practice. No, that's the sort of language that ruins teams' chances. Going in with the mindset, oh, it's gone to penalties, they're a bit of a lottery. They are not a lottery. They are part of the rules. They are in the rules of the game. As in, Gabrielle's penalties were not like, they weren't miles wide. They missed the target. You've had five penalties, you've missed two. You can't win a penalty shootout by doing that. Their goalkeeper didn't have to make one save. I think when people say it's a lottery now, I know that's a language that kind of speaks to the past.

13:37I think what it means is you don't really know how someone's going to react when they're in that moment. You can't practice that. You can practice the execution of it. You cannot practice... Well, I was in that moment. I was in that moment, Warmeger. And you're 100 % right. I didn't know how I'd feel from that, walking from the centre circle to the penalty spot, and all in my head was thinking was, Lowenard, Lowenard, don't change your mind, Lowenard, Lowenard. I literally must have said it 30 times in my head as I was walking to the spot. And you scored? I scored, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean... But, look, don't get me wrong, my legs did feel like jelly.

14:11Yeah. You know, David O 'Leary, for the conversation of the centre-half, David O 'Leary took our last penalty. Yeah. Which he was never on penalties. Absolutely. I don't think it's a positional thing, is it? I mean, Harry Maguire took one of the best penalties in England penalty shootout history that's often forgotten against Italy. But as I say, I want to come back because Tony mentioned a few points around some players. Alison, I think your point doesn't just speak to penalties does it it speaks to tactics throughout the game because maybe if the game plan and the substitutes who are coming on they could have got the goal i mean is there a world in which arsenal scored too early as well maybe i'm thinking to some of the points we're making because they scored too early and then immediately sat in and i was going well give it five minutes lads like you don't like this is a long old stint now you know martin samuel wrote about that on the website and the times website brilliant approach hugely admirable very tough to do for 83 minutes or whatever it was.

15:01But then in terms of how the game went and some of the players, Tony, I want to come back to your point. Martin Odegaard, maybe some of the players in forward areas not quite delivering, you didn't feel? Well, if you look at the forward area from Trossard, Martin Odegaard, Havets, obviously scored, and Saka, there was very little. But most of it was based on defending. I felt that Odegaard was getting in positions where he really had no final ball, but he's had a very difficult time as well. and you saw that with the way that Arsenal were approaching the game, that he never looked like he'd have an influence in the game.

15:34And this was a guy, two years ago, I'd done a piece about, saying how much of an influence he had on the Arsenal team. Well, that influence was then and it's not so much now. So you could probably point at Arteta and the set-up. It's made it harder for him. Is that form, fitness? I mean, he's the captain of this team. But I think it's an interesting point you make. I know some Arsenal fans who, not in a critical way, but deal quite similarly about Martin Odegaard. in the last year, and maybe it is in some form, but you're just looking at him going, what are you really offering to this team? Are you the kind of tempo setter?

16:06Are you the creator? What are you bringing? Alison, you're another part of this podcast who has widely praised Martin Odegaard before. What do you think of Tony's points? What do you think watching him captain Arsenal in this final? Yeah, no, I've only seen glimpses of the best of Martin Odegaard this season when he's been fit enough to play. And when you've seen glimpses like that, I have every sympathy with Arteta thinking he could be the difference in setting that tempo and the frame of it for Arsenal in the final. Because he's so calm. He's a different sort of leader. Everyone thinks Declan Rice should be captain of Arsenal.

16:44He has that swagger about him. But sometimes you need someone who's cerebral and calm and that is what Erdegaard brings them. but he just doesn't make enough of a difference. This season in general, he hasn't made enough of a difference. There haven't been those defence splitting passes or those little moments under pressure where you think, oh, why did he do that? That's like playing chess. He's thought about how the obvious pass wasn't the obvious pass. You pass it sideways and then you make a run and then you receive it. You think three or four steps ahead. He just hasn't had that influence.

17:17And he was really quiet in the final. I wouldn't say it was a mistake to play him because I think him being there would have helped, especially Arsenal's younger players. I think they would have liked him being there and his presence and his calmness because we've just been talking about how penalties do weird things to your emotions and, you know, you want to play the whole game feeling we've got this, lads. So I think his personality is fantastic, but I am slightly worried this marks the point at which we think he might even be sold. Really? Let's not forget what he did in the West Ham game.

17:55When they really needed something, a moment of inspiration. He took the responsibility. He took the ball. That's where you see the best of Odegaard is when actually there's a low block to break down. Not when you're the team with the low block. He wants to break down another team with the opposition when they're playing low block. Gets it on the edge of the box. Keeps making passes to try and probe and open up a little channel of space. And then he's through it. And he created the goal that they ultimately got. was kind of the moment that you felt as his Arsenal's title. So I agree, it's not been a season for the guards.

18:27And it's not making him a scapegoat. I mean, look, we all recognise he's a hugely talented player. But at the moment, he feels like he's redundant in the Arsenal team. Yeah. That's how it feels to me. And the point that Alison just made about one big name's going to go out at Arsenal in the summer for sure. And I... How big a big name though? Because obviously, Gary Jacobs written a really good piece on the Times website talking about some of the peripheral squad players. Gabriel Jesus is one of the names and others, yeah. But you think bigger than that? I think there'll be a big one that goes out.

18:55I think Arteta's that type of manager that he'll make a big call on a player that's... Say, it's not unexpected because I do think there's a number of Arsenal fans who think that it may be time to move away from someone like Martin Odegaard. But it doesn't help when you play a Champions League final and the player that's meant to be the orchestrator of the team, the way they play, make things happen. and he hasn't done it often enough. He's got one Premier League goal this season, OK, limited with injuries. Last year, he got three. So in two seasons, he's got four goals. You know, and that's, for someone of that ability, it's not enough.

19:32Yeah. It's clear that part of Arsenal and Arteta's game plan, though, was to utilise his bench and his squad. So, like, when Havertz ran himself into the ground, yeah, he was feeding off scraps a lot of the time. Then you bring, Kiyokunas did not do half of what Havertz did. but that was their only other option. He was always going to come on just after the hour or 20 minutes to go. Well, one of them two might not survive as well. Madureki made a difference. Ezi, we had a debate before the game, should Ezi play ahead of Hodegaard? So it was a tough call. And they were always, particularly in the game plan that they went into this game with, it was always going to be a low-margin game.

20:09They wanted it to be a low-margin game. You're going to have to hope for one of these players to step up and make a difference. And they ultimately didn't. Part of that has to do with the team they're playing against and part of it has to do with how they fit into Arsenal's system in that game. I was going to say, how hard is it to go and be an attacker all of a sudden when your game plan is built around defending? For Madiweki, it was OK because there was space. You get the ball out wide to him and attack the full-back, he's tired, and it worked. He nearly got a penalty. He created some havoc and danger.

20:40But beyond that... But it's hard, right, Tone? If you're in a team and you were asked quite a lot to do, a lot of work up front, press, you know, mark your man, etc. If you suddenly go, right, there's the ball. Go on, beat a man and put it in the top corner. It's a big change. Isn't that the sort of thing that PSG do though? Yeah. They work their socks off. You know, you're not a winger who, you know, Dembele is a centre-forward, charges his backside all over the page. They've all got speed. Yeah, they've all got the ability to do it themselves. Although they have, like, more of a commitment to attack when they win it back.

21:09Arsenal don't have that commitment and they actually don't really have the same speed at the top end of the pitch. I think, I'm going to talk about the Evolve, that's one thing they might need. Carl, just add one little point. Hakeem was injured before the final, so we don't know how much he trained, but he was unbelievably... He just kept going. Every time I'm thinking, surely he's been recovering from an injury. Surely he's not going to get round the... His engine is second to none in world football. We should probably come back and praise Arsenal a little, shouldn't we, for their performance defensively in this game?

21:44Like, at least a little. You know, this is the PSG side that went into last year's final and absolutely steamrolled it into Milan. There's a lot of people who were saying this was going to happen again. Oh, they'll get an early goal. It'll be all over for Arsenal. Like, the fact that they took them to penalties. The fact that PSG only equalised with a penalty. They did. Like, it was an amazing defensive performance from Arsenal. And, like, this is huge progress, isn't it? They've not only won the title, but they got to the Champions League final. regardless of it being the best season in the club's history it's still an amazing achievement to have got this far Extraordinary achievement There's not much further to go There really isn't We have to realise that You can talk about the way they've gone about it and we will and I'm sure we'll continue to but it's an extraordinary achievement and they were within a whisker of winning the double The way that they suffocated space in the first half was extraordinary They made PSG look quite average I think in that first half.

22:40No one really does that to this team. And it was just the smallest chink in the armour that got them the penalty as well. It was the last squeeze of the lemon. It was a one-two. And the thing that Mosquera tried to do was just throw his body and his leg just in front of the ball, in between Kvartoskelia and the ball. And Kvartoskelia had the same idea and he's clattered into the back of his legs. It was a fraction away from... When you're a defender and you do that turn, you just try and get yourself between the attacker and the ball. And he was just a fraction late and that was it. That's all it took.

23:13As you mentioned that decision, just very quickly, I don't think there was any contentious with the refereeing decisions, the corner kick taken quickly, the Madueke chance, but just anyone think that was a penalty? Anyone think Arsenal should feel hard done by the refereeing? It can be a quick answer, no. It was not a penalty. If I was an Arsenal fan, I'd be arguing it still, but it wasn't. I don't think it was. I will say that, unfortunately, we've seen these given as penalties. so that's why you can think oh they're slightly but no Madiweke did the same thing got himself between the defender and the ball and then fell over yeah just finished then quite rightly praised Arsenal and they are Premier League champions we saw that amazing bus parade through North London the greatest moment of which by the way if you've not seen it speaking of Martin Odegaard not only does Alison Rudd think he might be sold and Tony Cascarino think he had a crap Champions League final Ben White nicked his sunglasses and threw him into the crowd have you seen that?

24:04It was great fun. Absolutely great fun. Especially because of how sad Odegaard looks afterwards. You could probably buy like 10 million pairs of those sunglasses. I'm sure it'd be fine. Ben White, a bit of a character as always. The subject, I've mentioned it already, Gary Jacobs, excellent piece on the Times website about what now for Arsenal. They are Premier League title holders. They want to win it again. They want to dominate. We're going to talk about some of the changes that are going on at clubs around them. Is there one player? Is there one position? We've talked about potential outgoings.

24:34Is there a player or a position that you feel Arsenal could target in the summer that would help them go on another level? Tony, I'll start with you. Offensively, yes. I think there's a position, whatever it happens to be, whether it's a 10. I mean, I had this discussion yesterday about the centre-forward position of players that, you know, because Jokoros is a strong runner. I wouldn't say he's blisteringly quick. And I'd say Havets is, you know, when he got the opportunity in the game, he didn't get caught, but he's not electric. quick. I think Arsenal need that and it's a bit going back to Gregor's point of pace in forward areas.

25:09I do feel like they, because you know, what was the reason why Liverpool went for his act? It was that pace once he got away that you know, okay, he's had an injury-plagued season but that sort of forward they're very high, because what was Haaland bought for? You know, it wasn't bought up for his hold-up play, it was basically get the other side of a defender, you're not going to get him and you try and give him chances so I do feel with Arsenal because I looked at some of the great Arsenal teams and I thought straight away, I thought, Ian Wright was really quick. You know, he wasn't the biggest, but he was quick.

25:40Henry was quick. They had Anilka there for a period. He was quick. All of them forwards that, I mean, it's hard to say because you probably say, well, you're sort of describing an Mbappe and you're not going to get Mbappe. That's never going to happen, okay, at the moment. But I do feel it's that forward that can literally get away from players and stretch the opposition a bit more because that's what PSG do as a team. They stretch you with their pace, whether it's Dwey, whether it's Kaviscilia, Dembele. Dembele didn't have a particularly good game, did he? Yeah. But he was the player that will go in them spaces.

26:13Yeah, well, I mean, some of the names that Gary Jacob mentions in his piece, talks about Julian Alvarez might not be able to get him. Very quick. But he's wanted by PSG in Barcelona as well. Junior Kruppi at Bournemouth as well has had a brilliant season. Rafael Leal, Morgan Rodgers. Anthony Gordon would have been a good contender if he hadn't gone to Barcelona potentially. Greg, Alisson, what do you think about? I think on one level, it's kind of amazing Arsenal won the title given the fans were not impressed with Goykeres and you sort of feel to go to the next level, a striker they believe in would be great for them.

26:45It felt even like when he scored, it felt like, well, has he done anything else? Has he really lit up the team? Has he really given us much? It just didn't feel like he quite fitted in. I think if I was Arteta I might if I had to just sign one player I think it would be someone who could provide more moments of magic so that you almost build, you've got your amazing defence you've built the platform and then you need someone like Morgan Rodgers. I think I'd go all out to get him because he consistently delivers those magical moments which I think, I know they won the title but there weren't enough magical moments in that run.

27:23Could it be more than one? It could be more than one. In two forward areas. I think there's a good case for them making more than one. I just wanted to just keep it simple and give you only one. But listen, I'm sure probably a lot of Arsenal fans thinking we need a winger and a 10 and a striker. I just think that it might be, you know, the revenue they get and the type of player, Morgan Rodgers, because they easily fit that bill. Yeah. But there could be more than one that comes into Arsenal because the ultimate difference between PSG and everybody else has been their forward area. You know, their midfield's great.

27:53Yeah. But if you look at their forwards, they're frightening. They've got Bacola there as well. I mean, his pace, he was causing Arsenal with his pace coming on. They have three or four of these really quick forwards. Gregor? You're just talking about an elite player, like an addition off the very top shelf. That's where I think it should be. Gary Jacobs' piece outlines a lot of the kind of, oh, they might want another one in midfield and stuff. just go and spend £150 million on Vinicius or someone do you know what I mean like just go all out for like a super superstar you're talking about explosive pace they just made the Champions League final you're right they're an attractive option up until now in fact act the big one chest out Mikel come on lad you've done it now you're not like squad building no more Christian Norgard Liverpool did that did that last year I know but then I know that's a bad example Gary made the point as well that Giocares Madueke Zubomendi maybe one other these are the players that were signed last summer none of them started in the final exactly in fairness we have praised this season their depth their depth is amazing their depth was great and it served a purpose it got them the Premier League title it got them really close what they need now is the top echelon they need one or two they need a left winger and I still think they need a striker and I'd move on Giocares like if you're going to really be ruthless if it's going to be a big one he's a big one he's like he's miles off it at the top, top level.

29:23It sounds really brutal to say it, but it's true. He came on, the ball was bouncing off him, he barely gave it to a teammate, and he works hard. It's not enough. You need more than just hard work at the top, top level. And I know he scored 20 goals playing for a really good team, and he's won a Premier League title medal. It served a purpose up to a point, but to take this next step that everyone is yearning for now and talking about what's next, they need a better striker than Gokic. summer 2027 rerun PSG Arsenal Champions League final I can't think of another two teams who'd be in it I mean the way they're performing and if they strengthen again well look you saw them in the league phase and how easily they kind of swept to the top of the table and like hardly conceded a goal and like this is the next point about should they have evolving as a team and their style of play and stuff for me this is wildly overplayed like they don't concede goals if you had those really creme de la creme players at the top end of the pitch they'll be even better but they will keep the same principles of largely playing four centre-halves at the back having defenders sorry central midfielders who are better at protecting really than dictating and then you're allowing the top end of the pitch to do what they do best and they come up against that shifts and evolves and they come up against teams where they've got to break down the low blocks but that's I don't think that's going to change that much they're not going to suddenly sign players like Hakimi and Mendes to play full-back he's got a raft of centre-halves yeah absolutely reasons to dream big Arsenal fans but if you've got thoughts on how you should make your moves this summer do get in touch with me tom.clock at thetimes.co.uk time for a little break time for the easiest quiz question for these three in the studio to answer how many times will we be podcasting from the game during the World Cup we'll find out after the break

31:21Since he got out, bad things keep happening. Cape Fear is streaming on the 5th of June on Apple TV. Why would I want to hurt you? Starring Academy Award winner Javier Bardem. And Academy Award nominee Amy Adams. He is coming after my family. Why? Cape Fear, streaming on Apple TV on the 5th of June. Subscription required. Healthcare can feel complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier, more affordable, and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover. And to help you better manage your health, we're coordinating care between your doctors and your technology.

32:11We believe better, simpler healthcare is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit Optum.com to learn more.

32:41set your budget and launch. And if you want a hand, our podcast specialists are there to help you launch with confidence. This is podcast advertising without barriers. Get started at acast.com slash advertise.

33:02Welcome back to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday times i'm tom clark and i've got tony cascarino allison rudd and gregor robertson with me answer team how often will we be podcasting during the world cup 300 300 million times every damn day you're going to get the game podcast for you during the world cup i'm going to be speaking to our team out there stateside and these guys back home as well giving you the best analysis and reaction every morning every damn morning on the game podcast and speaking of the world cup let's us look at two stories from over the weekend one of them on the back page of the times this morning from martin ziegler the intro of which is a fifa clampdown on players wrestling before a corner or free kick is taken could impact england at the world cup after tactics used by thomas tuckel's team were highlighted as an example of those would be targeted at the tournament they're already picking on england before the tournament's even begun uh fifa refereeing chief pierre luigi colina has revealed that the world governing body will bring in a rule change at the tournament that will allow match officials to rule out goals for fouls committed by the attacking team before the ball is kicked.

34:07So all that grappling and pulling and pushing that you see before the free kick or corner is even taken, that can rule it out. Dan Byrne, you've been warned. Dan Byrne, you've been warned. Gregor, reaction? When we spoke about this before, I thought that this was a possibility. Although it's a profound change in the laws of the game, really, if you think about it. One of the fundamental laws of the game is that the ball has to be in play. And now you're saying that you can be penalised for something when the ball is not in play. My feeling is I would rather them penalise them before the kick was taken, as opposed to what I fear is you'd see a goal scored and then the VAR comes in and you're not just looking at from when the ball is played, you're looking at before that.

34:52So it's even more VAR intervention. That's my fear. But I'm actually intrigued about the possibility of that as an idea of clamping down on grappling. Thoughts? I'm like Gregor, I'm a bit worried about it. It feels like nitpicky. It feels like another opportunity to freeze frame every different single moment of a two-minute spell. Well, this is the political angle to this. The referees who are going to the World Cup are being shown footage. Now, if you're showing footage of actual English players doing this, so you're already... And they're telling the referees, be aware of the type of countries that will be doing this.

35:36No one else is, he says. Scotland just knocking it about, you know, a bit of keep ball, overlapping full-backs, cut-backs, lovely. Does this mean referees are going to have a heightened sense of awareness just when England play, or are they going to be applying this to all countries? Will they have a list of countries who've never done this before, particularly? That's a good point. Will they get away with it? I mean, the whole point of a referee, of a good referee, a top-level referee, is a lack of bias and an honesty and to treat the underdogs the same as the favourites and to not have... But on the flip side of that, when a referee prepares for a game, they have to prepare themselves for what they think is likely to unfold.

36:23So if you know you're going to be refereeing a match with a very, very physical team, as a referee, you get into the mindset of, I've got to be in that frame of mind. I'm going to be refereeing a really physical match here. I've got to think about that. So there'll be referees going into the World Cup, not only being aware that England might have a trick or two up their sleeve at corner kicks, but they'll have been given licence to be biased against England because they've been shown footage of England. So there's a little replay in your brain as a referee. The replay in your brain, you'll be looking for it.

37:01I think it'll be a huge disadvantage to England. Do you not get sick of regulations? Well, I've got some bad news for you, Tony, because here's some of the other changes that will be seen at the World Cup. Subs will have to leave the field of play within 10 seconds of the board being raised. There's another rule that I thought was already in place. So he's got to jog off there. Yeah. Time-wasting at a goal kick will result in a corner being awarded if it's not taken by the end of a five-second countdown by the referee. Outfield players who have treatment on the pitch will have to leave the field for a full minute unless it is a result of being injured by a foul where the opponent is cautioned.

37:33Players will not be allowed to approach their benches when the keeper goes down injured. That's the thing that we've seen throughout the football pyramid is basically our kind of unwritten water break, isn't it? When a keeper goes down injured. Good news for Gregor Robertson, new VAR powers. That's right, new VAR powers. video officials will have the power to change the decision on a corner if it has been wrongly awarded to the attacking team. For the first time, video officials will also review any sending off caused by a second yellow card. Quite good, that last one? Maybe? It doesn't work. It doesn't work.

38:09Because you mean... You can't review the first one. You can't review the first one. The first one might have been a very, very... But we will still be reviewing the first one. Let me just finish. Players who cover their mouth when confronting an opponent aggressively will receive red cards. Red cards. Tony Cascarino, you were right before we prepped this. Yeah, that's great. Players who leave the pitch in protest at a referee's decision will be shown a red card. Yeah, great. Fantastic. Stop, start, gain. And isn't there like a three-minute break for water break? Is it three minutes? In there somewhere, we might play a bit of football as well.

38:38Is that? Maybe. I'm not sure. That's my only worry. I'll just implement all these things without any trial or consultation for the biggest tournament on the planet. Yeah. I've got him... They're learning us to go along. This was actually a terrible idea, because I'm now about to ask Gregor Robert. I've just got him annoyed about refereeing changes in VAR. I'm now about to upset him. Tom, Tom, the hand over the mouth, OK? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? There's a red card, yeah? Yeah. That is, to me, that could be... Sometimes it's just for, like, not telling the opponent. They're judging and saying everything you're saying is bad.

39:13The morning might say, I'll go far post on this corner. No, no, you're going to get the red card. if you cover your mouth and speak to an opponent in an aggressive fashion. Oh, OK. I don't like your T-shirt. Anyway, as I was just saying, I have done a really bad thing for Gregor Robertson there because I've upset him about refereeing changes and now I'm going to ask him about Billy Gilmore's injury for Scotland. It's a tough couple of minutes for you, Gregor. This is bad news for Scotland, isn't it, Gregor, in terms of the way that Scotland would be hoping to play, would be hoping to keep the ball in some of these matches in the heat.

39:46Not ideal. no no it's sad for Billy Gilmore as well I mean mine goes back to the Euros when he kind of burst onto the scene and then he got Covid and he missed the last game and like he's not having much luck in terms of major tournaments for him from a personal point of view but yes for Scotland he's one of Scotland's most technical footballers and you know I was just talking about midfielders who are there to protect he's there to he is there to dictate and we don't really have anyone else who can do that so it's It's a big blow. Tyler Fletcher, one of the Fletcher twins at Manchester United, called up the Fletcher twin who opted to play for Scotland.

40:23What a story that is. His brother has opted to play for England. And he's playing with guys who played with his dad. I'm so, so excited for around the Fletcher family table at Christmas in like 20 years' time. Much loyalty in that family, is there? You'd be like, oh, yeah, I played here. Yeah, well, I went to a World Cup song, so how do you like them apples? It would be an amazing story if he got on the pitch, as you say, Greg, with some of the players who played with his dad. It's not all over for Scotland, though, Gregor. Don't worry. We've still got a brilliant preview show to go. We've already done a Scotland preview show as well that's in the game feed.

40:53You can check that out right now. Right, you've all been waiting for it. We've made you wait a whole show for the reaction from the Liverpool mafia down the other end of the table. Alison Rudd and Tony Cascarino here to explain why their great club, their prestigious club, their club where it means more. Why are they all better than everyone else? Not anymore. They are ruthless. They sack managers who win them Premier Leagues after one difficult season. Out the door you go, Arnest Lott. Thanks for nothing. See you later. Thoughts? Follow that. Quite a big move, though, isn't it? Quite a big move.

41:32And yet... And yet? And yet I was not the least bit surprised. Were you not? I was hugely surprised. Part of my slightly jokey intro there, listeners, is that I genuinely thought that was the case. I genuinely thought that was the case. I thought Liverpool would be like, no, no, we are not going to fall into the kind of desperate rush to change things so quickly. This has been the most remarkable season of turbulence. No, they were worried about history repeating itself, a la Brendan Rodgers' history, where you limp on till October and then you sack the manager. And they got very, very lucky that they were able to bring in Jürgen Klopp at that point.

42:10That is not necessarily going to happen this time around if you limp on through to October. Nothing much was likely to change. The fans had turned against Slott. I mean, not all of them. No, not all of them. Not all of them, but... That's partly what I mean. Enough to make it feel like it wasn't... There was no relationship there. I spoke on this podcast a couple of months ago about there being no emotional connection between Slott and the fans. And that is... You talk about Liverpool history. That is something that Liverpool fans want. and they didn't have it with Brendan Rodgers and they don't have it with Arnest Lott.

42:43That isn't the emotional connection. Don't get any emotional connection from him winning you a Premier League title. That's nuts. Don't get any like... That's thanks and admiration. There's not the emotional connection. Do you feel sorry for him in any way?

43:01I think he probably was sold the idea it's going to be a difficult season. If you get us Champions League football, we won't sack you. I think he was told that. And so I feel sorry for him in that he fulfilled that side of the bargain, but he still went. But his demeanour and his tactics through the season have been slightly baffling. I mean, I have sharp intake of breath in some of his post-match analysis. Oh, no, the opposition dared to try and beat us. They changed their tactics just to face us. How dare they do a long throw? That's not allowed. It just seemed really bizarre. I never felt he had ownership of where things were going.

43:39I felt he was out of his depth with the amount of money spent. But that wasn't him. He didn't have ownership over it. He didn't seem comfortable trying to please the board who'd spent the money. That's on the board then, isn't it? They've signed him two strikers to play in the same position for a combined nearly 200 million quid. That's not his fault. No, there was something about his lack of ownership of the situation. He just looked increasingly out of his depth. Suddenly, all the things that were initially worried about Slott was his lack of top-level experience. He had most salish scoring and assisting for fun, and it was just beautiful glide towards the title.

44:26Then once the title was achieved, a chance to see his... He might manoeuvre for the season to come. Liverpool fell flat. and you had the awful summer and he just didn't get them playing. There were matches in which you felt, has he lost the dressing room? Because those players are not trying. But he had also had his star player thrown a strop all the time, Mo Salah. He had, you know, obviously, as we always have to say, and quite rightly so, the death of Diogo Jota to contend with. No football club often has that to do. They signed star players. Alexander Izak had a very stodgy start because he didn't have a pre-season because they didn't get the deal done in time.

45:03Then he got injured. Eka Tike looked brilliant but then got injured as well. They'd signed him all these players and said, go on, change that, work that. Surely he needs, gets the season and then a summer. Surely after winning a title. That's what I find remarkable. Tony, it's me v. Alison at the moment. Tony, you've... Yeah, I would... Look, I've always felt Liverpool have quite a loyal club to the Wolves' managers. I was hugely disappointed as a fan. I watched them a number of times live and came away thinking that their performances levels dropped in many different parts of the team. It wasn't just Mo Salah.

45:37It could be Canarte, who I didn't think had a good season at all. Then there was issues at right back. I did Kerkest settle in and Fring Pong, how he done. Wurz, I thought, I just, well, I was surprised that the player I watched by Leverkusen couldn't make anything happen hardly at all most of the season for Liverpool. I thought it was disaster from start to finish. I don't, I wasn't surprised. But not a disaster of things making. No, no. Some of them are Marguerite. Some of his decisions. If you look at the Aston Villa performance, which was late in the season, where they were just torn apart and was quite obvious what Villa were doing.

46:15If you're sitting on the sidelines, you can see all Oli Watkins wanted to do was get in between Canate and Van Dijk and get in behind them. And that's not been recognised. You've got to stop the ball. McAllister's performances this year, he should not have been in the team. I mean, he could go through the team. You could go through... Their choices, though, Gregor. As you said, a lot of the transfer businesses made things more difficult than easier for slot. Like, the right-back is extraordinary. How you could rely on Connor Bradley, despite his injury record, to be your right-back. They brought in Fing Pong as well, yeah.

46:52Yeah, but he also thought he could be playing one foot further forward a lot of the time to sort of ease the load on Salah. So, like, they left a big hole there and have tried to fill it with Subozlai Curtis Jones Joe Gomez Joe Gomez like Canati's plummeted I don't think slot has anything to do with that Van Dijk we're finally like starting to see some decline I think that's nothing to do with him either would you say the pace of the play Kierkegaard has not has not been the player that they hoped for yes McAllis has declined and there's things you can talk about last season that like the dynamic in midfield that he created and he made better and he tried to move away from that that's the one thing I would say Remember the goal right back to the start of the season, that game against Bournemouth?

47:36And it was like a game of basketball. And he said afterwards, you know, when that was put to him, he said, well, no, I want to see, this is the kind of football I want to see. I want to see it exciting. And, you know, we want to try and score goals. You kind of looked at that and you looked at the players and you thought, I'm not sure that's, you know. And then you had it with Newcastle as well, didn't you, with Ngoma coming off the bench and scoring. And it was like, oh, Liverpool are going to win 4-3 every week. No, the biggest thing is the pace of play. Right. We talked earlier about PSG and how quick they were in all different areas.

48:06Liverpool weren't a quick passing team this season. And I think they lost 19 games in total over the course of the season. Their goals for Colin was down. Their points was more than 20 points less than last year. Their defensive record was way worse. So it has to force something on Arnie Slott. Is he at fault for everything? No, of course he's not. But he's made mistakes along the way. He dropped Salah after three games and then brought him back as if like now we're going to see the best because I've made a point of dropping him. And he had other options. The gap poet sent a forward. And again, you can go, well, they lost Isaac and they lost Ekotike to injury.

48:46It felt like he just couldn't get the calls right. But is that not a season of transition, though, where you go? You've won the title. Tom, you can't spend 400 and odd million and then go a transitional season. It follows the season that... So what then, because this is the point I'm going to come on to, I think they've got another season of transition coming. They've got another summer of potential big spending. Greg has highlighted some of the positions. There's not this idea that, oh, I don't think a manager comes in, whoever it would be, and we're going to talk about Andoni Arayola in a moment, and goes, oh, well, that sorts it then.

49:19I don't think. You know, they've still got a lot of issues there. I do think managers can come into a football club and sort things out. The normal, I say, fan or the normal punter, just whatever, goes to watch a game and they go, well, your manager surprises you. He didn't surprise me once on his slot this season. Well, I thought, what a good call that was. Just before I come on to Andoni Arraola and what next then, is there any part of it for all of you where you think Liverpool might have been caught up in all the changes that have happened, not just this season, but already this summer? Already we know Xabi Alonso's in at Chelsea.

49:55Michael Carrick's got the Man United job. You know, Deserby's in at Tottenham right at the end of the season. There's only Pep's leaving. We believe Enzo Morescu's coming in. Is there part of it that Liverpool have gone, stick or twist? Right, let's go. Give me and Richard Hughes a point at Bournemouth. I think it's two things. Despite, I think, me and you seem to be of the same view, roughly speaking, that the guy who's won Liverpool's second title in 35 years deserves a summer and another season even if he has lost the dressing room to win them back even if this is a season of transition or it's going to be another one to get the chance to really make another imprint on a new team I think he deserved the chance for that to happen but parking that to one side they obviously feel that too much water has passed under the bridge maybe there is a fracture with the relationship between him and some of the players maybe his voice isn't having the same effect as it had in that first season maybe the trauma of losing Diogo Jota and all these new players coming into that dressing room in that moment they need a new voice just someone to make it feel fresh again and I understand that actually I do understand that so it's probably a both things can be true moment it probably is you can't reset I don't think you can reset with the same manager and that's the harsh reality of it.

51:22I think he deserves the chance because I think managers can. But that's not football, is it? Lots of people deserve things they don't get in football. It's true. It's a brutal business. So on to Andoni Arayola then. Paul George reporting on the Times website that Liverpool are set to begin talks with him this week. Your reaction to that as a move? Tony, it's one that you mooted a few weeks ago, I think, when we were talking about managerial changes. He's a manager with huge acclaim behind him after this season and what he did at Bournemouth. Excited? Think you'll sort some of the things you're talking about?

51:50Yes, yes. You asked me to do a column, Tom. We chatted, didn't we, before most weeks, of where I'd like to go the weekend and what ideas we have. Yeah, what teams you'd like to go. I said I wanted to go Crystal Palace versus Bournemouth. And I went there, and I'll see the best 60 minutes of football I've seen all season. And it ended up, Bournemouth, Fortuna, Lapp were outstanding. They were just unbelievable, the dynamism within the football team. and you could say that everything was designed to be a team. And even their result at Arsenal at the end of the season wasn't the biggest surprise.

52:24Like they got a result against Man City because this team was so dynamic with legs and that's one of his challenges. He's got to find what we talked about with legs in a team. Did draw three-year-old. But I remember Tom thinking, shall I do a piece on the two managers, Glasner and Areola, thinking that? But I decided to go more about the team. Bournemouth and how they perform. But I came away thinking I was more impressed with Areola and I'd watched him a few times because of the way they play. And don't get me wrong, Glasner's done unbelievable with that formation, the five at the back. But to get Bournemouth to six and have three years of improvement under him and watch it and think how much they lost in last summer, obviously that's been well documented.

53:12I was just so impressed with Bournemouth, with him. And for me, it was like, that's what a Liverpool manager is. What you do is the way you play, you know, toe-to-toe with everybody, dynamism, pace, with brilliant technical players. Now, it's easy said and it's hard to do. He's an astonishingly good coach. There's no doubt about it. Anyone who loves their football and watches a lot of, don't just watch their team, but watch all football, will say, wow, it is astonishing. If I have any caveats, it would be that I will admit that I did shed a tear when Chabby Alonso went to Chelsea. More than one.

53:55Definitely more. I mean, an actual tear. As much as Steve Highway. An actual tear, because that, to me, had been the fairytale outcome that Slott would go when Alonso would come in. And linked to that is the fact it's what the majority of Liverpool fans would have wanted as well, which might count against Andoni because they have no... He hasn't got any connection to Liverpool. The connection then, point that he makes. He's not that kind of character either. No, he's not. And also, if Alonso had taken time for the reset and maybe lost a couple of games in those first few weeks, because he's a hero for Liverpool, there would be no shouts of this has gone wrong, this has gone wrong, we've got the wrong man.

54:40If Iriola comes in and because his methods are so harsh, they're hard work and different, there is some adjustment to be made. And in those adjustments, you clock up a few draws where you should win and a few defeats where you should have drawn. There might be an ugly, I'm not saying there will be, but there's a possibility that the crowd might think, well, why did we do this? So they're my caveats. But he's got the whole summer. He's got the whole summer to work on. I mean, obviously, a lot of the players won't be there, but he can, behind the scenes, be working out who he needs to bring in and which players he'll be able to adapt to his system.

55:19And he's allowed to talk to them about these things. But I just think there is no doubt he is an astonishingly adept coach. And also one that isn't hard work for the owners. I mean, Richard Hughes knows this. He's quite... He will accept the budget given. He'll be told which players they're thinking about. He'll have some input, but he's very good at saying, this is the situation, this is what I've got, I will make this work. Gregor? Look, I agree with everyone. He's a great coach. He's a slightly different sort of character and seems like a good person.

56:01And he'll give them an identity, it's true. You'll go and watch the team and you'll see, even if we've said this season Liverpool look like they've run out of legs, they'll find new legs. There will be a team with lots of running. A few things. He's never managed a club this size. He's always been an underdog. His teams always have less possession of the ball than the opposition. That's not really, these things are going to change. Is the intensity of his play sustainable over the course of a season when you've got to play three games a week and play in Europe. Big question mark there.

56:37I think those things are quite interesting sort of caveats. But I think it'll be exciting. I think it will be exciting. I think we're sort of, also you could make a draw parallel with Ange Postacoglu. It is like a sort of, it is like the intensity levels. I'm not sure that, I personally don't think it is sustainable in the Premier League. Like I think that's part of the reason. As in across when you play in multiple competitions in Europe. Yeah, I think you're entering that territory because that is what they do. There's no relenting. They'll have a way bigger squad than Bournemouth, Gregor. So, you know, there is a lot more.

57:13Well, speaking of that squad, though, they've talked about players leaving. Big names, Mo Salah, obviously, on his way out. I mean, how many signings do Liverpool need? I reckon they need at least one winger, maybe two. At least one centre-back, maybe two. A right-back. You know, we're into four or five big signings. coming, the two young lads, haven't they? Probably a midfielder as well. It's going to be another big summer, isn't it? Well, right back would be I think what we were saying earlier. They lost Trent last year. Bradley's been injured and been out for a long time. So that's another issue.

57:45Maybe even a goalkeeper because no one's actually convinced that Alisson will stay. Hopefully it's for another year. There's lots of work. And one thing that's really frustrated me about this period. Is everyone thinking Liverpool got to the end of the season? Like what happened with Klopp and it was kept under wraps that Klopp was leaving. Then it was November and we found out, when was it, January or February, that he was leaving. Liverpool was going to do this three months ago. You think? Yeah, absolutely. They were going to do it three months ago. So he was, all the talk were coming out of Anfield, he's going to stay.

58:19I just don't buy into it. You don't just suddenly, Areola was there, him announcing he's not going to stay. It's like, well, he's going somewhere well is he just going to give up football then is he and not you know oh Atletico Bilbao oh they've got another manager in so that was a you know I just didn't buy into it but there is loads of question marks but there's no guarantee on any transfer or any manager there's never a guarantee but I am really pleasantly surprised by if it does become Areola Liverpool have got a great manager in my opinion yeah lots and lots still to come it just proves this season it never ends really we'll leave it there for now though Tony Cascarino Alison Rudd and Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me but that is it a remarkable league season is over Arsenal are Premier League champions at last Aston Villa and Crystal Palace won European trophies which Bournemouth Sunderland and Brighton will compete for next season we had four different managers at Nottingham Forest three at Tottenham and Pep Guardiola said farewell to Manchester City we had a thrilling title race in Scotland Coventry brilliance and spying in the Championship and Little Lincoln City won League One with 103 points.

59:28Thanks to all our brilliant reporters and columnists for their insights throughout the season and thank you for listening and getting in touch but we are not going anywhere. We've got our special World Cup preview show out this week all about England and we'll be back on Thursday with the regular show and from next week we begin our daily World Cup shows. We hope you'll join us for all of it and we'll see you very soon.

59:57Since he got out, bad things keep happening. Cape Fear is streaming on the 5th of June on Apple TV. Why would I want to hurt you? Starring Academy Award winner Javier Bardem. And Academy Award nominee Amy Adams. He is coming after my family. Why? Cape Fear, streaming on Apple TV on the 5th of June. Subscription required.

1:00:48And if you want a hand, our podcast specialists are there to help you launch with confidence. This is podcast advertising without barriers. Get started at Acast.com slash advertise.