Bellingham revolts and Tuchel’s troubles

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1:55Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times. England head coach Thomas Tuchel has said that his mother can sometimes find the rage within Jude Bellingham repulsive. Now there's something I never thought I would say. June the 12th and this football season just keeps on giving. On today's show we'll discuss the England manager's comments about his star player, the dreadful display in the defeat against Senegal, work out whether we're excited about the Club World Cup or not, and discuss the latest moves and rumours regarding players and managers. I'm Tom Clark, and joining me today, we have the football reporter, who is off to cover the Club World Cup.

2:33It's Pete Rutzler, and the former footballer who's staying at home to keep me company, it's Gregor Robertson. Look at me. We'll also hopefully be joined later by our women's football reporter, Kit Shepard, to discuss the women's Euros, and we'll hear from Johnny Northcroft about the England men's side on the pitch. But first, we have to start with Thomas Tuchel's comments yesterday. I was on the editing floor yesterday speaking to Johnny and Paul Joyce, who'd been at the game, talking about how to go at England again. How do we analyse that dreadful display? Paul had got some comments from Thomas Tuchel that he made after the game.

3:05Then we found out he was going on TalkSport. Paul Joyce was listening and he messaged me halfway through going, this is absolutely, honestly, basically, what on earth is happening? Thomas Tuchel goes on TalkSport and basically calls out Jude Bellingham, his star player. Now, for fairness, I'm going to read out some of those quotes in case you haven't seen the whole quotes, the whole transcript, just seen the headlines like us pesky journalists always do. This is what Thomas Tuchel said about Bellingham. I think he has a certain something. He brings an edge which we welcome and which is needed if we want to achieve big things.

3:35It needs to be channeled. The edge needs to be channeled towards the opponent, towards our goal, and not to intimidate teammates or to be over-aggressive towards teammates or referees, but towards opponents and always towards the solution, meaning towards winning. And we are on that, yes. He has the fire. I don't want to dim this down. He should play with this kind of fire. That's his strength. But the fire comes also with some attributes that can intimidate you, maybe even as a teammate. You see sometimes the explosion towards referees and the anger in his game. so if he can channel this in the right way and we can help him in this then for sure he has something that we need and he has a certain edge that is hard to find he's a nice kid and very open very intelligent I struggle to see that England would be better off without him I struggle to see that I think this has to be the other way around how can we have the best version of him I see this with my parents with my mum that she sometimes cannot see the nice and well educated and well behaved guy that I see and the smile If he smiles, he wins everyone over.

4:39But sometimes you see the rage, you see the hunger and the rage and the fire, and it comes out in a way that can be a bit repulsive. For example, for my mother, when she sits in front of the TV watching him. Have you ever heard anything the like from an England manager? I mean, as a bluff away from being battered by Senegal, it's a good move, but I mean, it's an interesting tactic from Thomas Tuchel. Pete, your reaction, just general reaction to these comments. And it can be, I mean, crackers, as my reaction was yesterday in the office. Yeah, I... I... Yeah. Because, like you were saying, I was going to just talk about that, about it's an ideal sort of distraction from the nature of the performance, right?

5:23To go into Bellingham, assessing him, his season, blah, blah, blah. But it doesn't feel like, in the context, that that was the intent to drop in about his mum's opinion of him. which I think is unusual in itself you don't get that very often just bringing in your mum to assess a place not just performance but demeanour via the television set I'm just having an idea about a spin-off summer show Gregor where we get all our mums on the podcast instead there we go that'd be carnage anyway sorry Pete but I think on the overall point that he's trying to make about Bellingham I think there is something in that about trying to channel his fire, as he puts it, his edge.

6:08I mean, that's what's made him pretty an exceptional player. That's what makes him so good for Real Madrid. And that's what leads to him scoring a bicycle kick against Slovakia. It stops humiliation for his country. Absolutely. But then also we've seen, like we saw in the Senegal game, the way he was acting towards the officials. That's not new. we've seen that a fair bit at Real Madrid and there is an element of trying to tame that. But yeah, the repulsive aspect I don't see as particularly helpful. And I think when we talk about England and particularly in those central areas and we're trying to work out who's the best players to play in there to the teams we built around kind of doesn't lend itself for that to be Jude Bellingham if the manager is saying things like that.

6:52Gregor, your reaction first to this idea around Bellingham because you've talked about Bellingham's aura on the pitch. you said he's one of the players that you've seen that has this ability, this swagger, if you like, that I am... Mentality, yeah. Mentality, that I am not only an incredibly important part of this team, but it doesn't matter if I'm 17, I'm the best player here and I can win this game. Is this just part of having that, that if you're a player like that, you kind of have a bit of this, what Thomas Tuchel's talking about as well? Yeah, I think so. I think when you're that kind of you know it's that force of personality probably does have some downsides and side effects almost and the most interesting bit is that he twice said in that statement you read out the idea that it could intimidate teammates that suggests that he's not afraid to call people out or rip into them in the changing room or on the pitch and he did that when he was 16 at Birmingham to like season professional so it shouldn't come as that much of a surprise but clearly Tuchel has felt that it's something that needs to be tamed or watched certainly at the very minimum

8:08when I heard it first of all I was like is this lost in translation that was my first thought but his command of English is extraordinary I mean I actually was watching an interview in the previous game I remember thinking that the way his English is brilliant so I don't think that's true then you think if you kind of substituted another word for repulsive which is a pretty kind of loaded word would that change things? actually it wouldn't that much it's still saying that there are aspects of your performance and your personality that are a big turn off for some people even if it's like my mum if you talked about mums in the plural it's still the same message I mean, the mum thing is remarkable, and that's why I used it in the intro.

8:54But as you say, if you've not had that bit at the end, he'd still twice reference the idea of intimidating teammates in the dressing room in a potentially negative way. I still think, even if we take my mum... And his mum could be any mum. Yeah. I think, you know, it could. It could be, you know, we shouldn't be labour on mums here. But the point stands that he's saying, there are some people watching at home who will see your antics and think, what, whatever. I think that's what he was saying. so cut that out so then in back to the intimidation thing then you've been in many dressing rooms different levels of football what do you think about that idea that because you think about players from down the years Roy Keane is a great one for example when Manchester United players praise him to the hilt for basically being terrifying in the dressing room and I don't think Jude Bellingham is anywhere near that level I've got no idea but it doesn't seem to be but what about this idea that being intimidated in the dressing room by your teammates particularly a young one well it's interesting though I mean, watching this game on TV and Roy Keane after the game came out with a great line where they had Ian writing stitches where he was like, you know, they're all really nice.

10:01It's like they're down at Starbucks having a chat. He'd say, maybe you should do this, you should do that. It's like, no, you tell them, dig them out. So that's Roy Keane. And, you know, as you say, there is an element of truth in that. There's a value to that, to players in the dressing room placing big demands on each other. there is undoubtedly a value in that but there's a point where it becomes like a little bit it can become a little bit toxic or a little bit kind of weighty and you know that ultimately happened with Roy Keane at Manchester United you know at the end but probably there were moments over the years too in fact undoubtedly there were moments over the years where Roy Keane would have been a toxic presence in that changing room so that's what I think I would you know guess Thomas Tuchel is trying to temper don't let this go too far don't let your your absolute kind of winning mentality go over a line Is this sort of a modern game thing as well though?

11:03Someone like Jude Bellingham and having that persona and characteristic feels so unusual we have so many conversations particularly about managers and coaches about how they have to deal with dressing rooms differently in this day and age players are very different their personalities are different they're more insular it's all you go into a dressing room they're on the phones that kind of vibe and environment someone like Jude Bellingham is a complete exception we never have these conversations really about and I wonder if the degree to which Tuchel's talking about it being intimidating is because it is just so much more of a contrast with you know the modern footballer I suppose maybe even I mean it wasn't that long ago you were playing Gregor but even in that short amount of time it does feel like there has been quite a sea change in the types of characters there are in the dressing room, which means that, whereas if you drop Bellingham into Roy Keane's era, probably wouldn't have been that exceptional, probably wouldn't have elicited a comment saying that he appears repulsive and intimidates his teammates.

12:02Whereas today, there's a line, there's a limit where players probably do take that a bit more personally. They probably don't respond in a way that, if Roy Keane was giving it out to someone, I'm sure he'd get something back from the rest of his teammates in the dressing room. To a degree. yeah that's not always true yeah because also a part of it is you can only do that when you know your value is really high yes like Roy Keane knew he was the captain he knew he was the main man Jude Bellingham is a star for Real Madrid like he's been talked up and being England's main man he scores a goal and he says who else like he knows he knows how important he is he knows he he can say these things he knows he can dig people out and the players around him know that too so there is like it's almost like a power imbalance yeah because there is another narrative around here when that, say if the goal that he scored, which was disallowed for handball, had gone in, the narrative I was editing on the Tuesday night would have been Bellingham bails them out again.

12:55And that's why he did it too. That's kind of what he's doing. And he got the ball and ran back to the halfway line and was giving it arms up and get the crowd going. And I was thinking, fair play, mate. It's June. It's a friendly against Senegal. You've come off the bench, you've scored a crucial goal and you're trying to whip up the crowd and your teammates to go, come on, let's go and win this in the last five minutes. That is the same, it's exactly the same thing that Thomas Tuchel's talking about that maybe you then get in the dressing room and go lads that was not good enough or something far more extreme than that right?

13:23Yeah it's just two sides of the same coin. What do you think then about the idea that Tuchel and maybe it is just a distraction right but what do we think about the fact that he is this is a story now right? This is a story. I thought we were coming into this show and we were going to talk about Senegal and that performance and the 4-4-2 and what the hell is he doing which we're going to do in a minute but Thomas Tuchel has made him and Jude Bellingham the story. What do we think about that as a move by a manager? Because it's a bold one. Pete, you're talking about managers managing dressing rooms and players and personalities.

13:58It's a bold call, isn't it? Yeah, but I think Bellingham's the type that can handle that. I'm sure there's probably an aspect that thinks he can deal with that. I've got to challenge him to get the best out of him and maybe the best way to get that from Bellingham is to sort of poke the bear kind of thing. I was trying to think through a little bit about why Tuchel's done this and I keep thinking of the word naivety and I think but this is Thomas Tuchel you know this is an experienced coach at club level and he has spoken a little bit about the sort of the nuances of international football he keeps going on about limited training time maybe he is finding all of that difficult and maybe there is also an aspect of the scrutiny because you know there aren't that many big high profile games but yet playing Andorra will have a huge scrutiny a friendly against Senegal where you're trialling a 4-4-2 suddenly has huge scrutiny and maybe there's an element of oh I'm not quite expecting this but do we you know I'm sort of conflicted in my own mind about whether he you think is it possible that he's kind of you know he did this interview after a whole round of interviews like you know covering a range of subjects asked about Bellingham has he just kind of gone too far is this a mistake it's possible it's possible I don't think I don't think he would have gone in because if it was like something that was really intentional he wanted to make a pointed comment he would have done it in earlier pressers probably I think probably this has come out and he might regret it Interesting Well, there is a point to say that the idea that maybe some of this and some of the pressure that you're suggesting Pete he was feeling comes after that defeat against Senegal I heard from Johnny Northcroft our football correspondent for the Sunday Times who was there covering the game.

15:43These are some of his thoughts both on that match against Senegal and also Thomas Tuchel's early start as England head coach. So two toiling wins, embarrassment against Andorra, humiliation against Senegal. It's not exactly how the Thomas Tuchel era was supposed to start. It's not what the FA had in mind when they commissioned the Thomas Tuchel army drum and bass banger and had it pumping out of Wembley. with the firecans going before his first international in March. Tuchel is undoubtedly one of the great coaches of his generation, but it hasn't taken him long to find himself walking in Gareth Southgate's shoes and to realise that this is an England squad, this is an England team, that for all the talent, for all the brilliant names, is out of balance and desperately needs fixing.

16:38and my article this morning is an attempt to wrap up the first four games of the Tuchel era and in some ways look back actually at the last 12 months of England because 12 months ago we were preparing for the first game at the Euros and so much dysfunctionality has happened since then. So in the piece I'm trying to identify where England are, the let's say false start that Tuchel's made in the job and what he needs to do now. I've tried to identify some of the problems and tracing it back, I think, if you look at the Gareth Southgate era, you see the football itself, maybe not the results, but the football, I felt, peaked at the 2022 World Cup and then the few games afterwards, the Italy away win, the 7-0 against North Macedonia, the brilliant performance at Hampden against Scotland.

17:33And that goes up to summer 2023. But what happened in summer 2023? okay so Jude Bellingham moves to Real Madrid and he begins this conversion from midfield engine to this kind of hero player up front that needs to play an attack and try and score goals Harry Kane goes to Bayern his status goes up massively Jack Grealish has won the treble he goes off the rails Marcus Rashford signs a new contract seems to lose his way Foden and Cole Palmer begins seasons where their status and the expectation on them completely changes. Jordan Henderson goes to Saudi Arabia. And the point I'm trying to make is that if you trace things back to when England were last really good, there's been a big change in the statuses and the positions and the attributes in some ways of the key players since then.

18:29and I felt Gareth Southgate wrestled with it and it defeated him at the Euros last year despite reaching the final. We all saw the football and I feel Thomas Tuchel is now faced with this essential problem. He spent four games and six months. Fair enough, by the way. He's trying to get to know the culture. He's trying to get to know the players. He's also preparing for the World Cup in terms of marginal gains and signs. I'm on board with all that but that's what he's concentrated on so far. the heat tense, Jordan Henderson back, let's get the spirit right, blah, blah, blah. But he was brought in because of his big football brain.

19:06And that's the bit I feel that England now need to fix. We saw the wrong team play against Senegal, too weak a team to play against a fine side like Senegal with their talent. And the result was in some ways inevitable. Against Andorra, we saw an attempt to play Palmer and Bellingham together that didn't quite work. Tuchel's here because he has got the ability and the history of providing elite football solutions and that's where the roadmap for England is. He needs to get to grips with this squad, with its sort of changed profile of players. I forgot to mention Declan Rice, 2023, somewhere goes to Arsenal, stops being a holding player, starts becoming a number eight.

19:52So there's a lot of issues structurally and in terms of the balance of the squad and I feel that's what Tuchel from September onwards needs to focus on. And things like the vibes, things like the heavy shirt, it all flows from the football. He said it himself. You can't say to players, play with freedom, and they play with freedom. Feeling of freedom, feeling of weightlessness of shirt, that starts to flow when you're playing well and when you're playing in a team where there's patterns, there's rhythm there's connections between players and the football itself leads the joy that's a road map for England and that's what I tried to outline in my piece this morning Johnny there with a nice summary of the difficulties Thomas Tuchel is facing on the pitch irrespective of his comments around his star player and we'll see what their future might bring on Bellingham I mean let's go back to that Senegal match and I mean there was part of me that was thinking they're going to get beat here this just after that after Andorra they're going to get beat I saw the Senegal team I thought Indy Saar Jackson that's a tasty front three fancy them against Colwell and the boys at the back I mean you could see it coming and it just looks as Johnny says it just all looks a bit messy doesn't it Pete like we're a year out from the World Cup this guy has been hired to win the World Cup this idea and I'm not going to bring Gareth Southgate into it only a little bit But this idea that Gareth Southgate has taken us as far as he could go.

21:29We needed someone to take England over the line, a winner, someone who wins in big games, a tactician, to take us. And we're now left after these games going, yeah, flippantly, he hasn't got a bloody clue. There's an argument to say that, isn't there? Yeah, well, he doesn't have a clue. Thank you, there you go. But in the sense he doesn't know what his England team's looking like, And that's very clear from the nature of the performances, but also the lineups. And to be honest, we don't really know what this England team should look like. Everyone has their own opinion about who should be playing in those central positions, who should play.

22:04Like the defence, I think I agree with Tom, who was on the podcast on Monday, talking about, you know, that looks really uncertain about key positions at the back. If you're Tuchel and he wants more time on the training, like any club coach does, you have so much more time to build in your ideas, to build up the connections between players. He doesn't have that. So he's simultaneously trying to work out how do I find these things out while not having any intense training sessions and then also then exposed to the scrutiny that comes with it when performances don't look great. Like for me, with international, I said this to Gregor when I came in, I just kind of, you know, just take a step back.

22:42You know, it's four games, isn't it? You know, what we're expecting here. But then you mentioned that the World Cup is a year away and you think about the proximity. the reality is was you know did we need a complete reset after Southgate or was this more of a building on you know we've gone this far and actually we just need that extra step but that's what I thought the premise was right and that was the idea and that's why you know we had this little experiment with Lee Carsley and we thought no that's not quite right we need just a winner we just need a really brilliant tactician to take England over the line that seemed to be the argument that was that's literally the point I was going to make like it's the idea of coming into Tuchel's appointment was that he can take us one step further when the reality of the situation, I think, and Johnny wrote about this really well in his piece, there is a real transition element to the squad that made Southgate's team so good at the World Cup in Qatar that made it much more fluid, dynamic, had a real setup to it, the way came a drop in, that pace in wide areas.

23:38The Euros felt like, England, this cycle's not right, we've got to have a change. But that change is actually a bit bigger than just, right, actually, we need the right coach. That's what I was thinking. this match and the comments I was having in chats with some of my pals afterwards who are big big England fans absolutely convinced that a change in manager with Southgate was going to give us what we needed but like this feels like three four year rebuild type job this is the thing yeah I mean the one thing I would say is that you realise that it's possible we're seeing that all of the Ghani Southgate's biggest you know greatest achievement was removing all the things that are creeping into the conversation again about the weight of the shirt.

24:20Exactly. So tactics and whether you're playing two number tens or three or who you've got out wide and all these things are irrelevant if you erode or like damage the feeling of like wanting to play for England. And you know, he's talking about smiles and smiles on faces and fun and all those things. If these things are damaged, you're doomed. I'm glad you brought up how brilliant Gareth Southgate is, Gregor, because I think that's an excellent point. But that's the other thing. I'm not saying that he's like, you know, these things are creeping into the conversation after three you know four friendlies sorry four games some of them friendlies often against like Minos and at the end of a very long season it's not been straightforward but then all the things Peter's saying are true that he counted like there were 24 training sessions in total before the World Cup six international breaks two of them have gone the time for experimentation is over like but I would argue it never there in the first place.

25:19He almost didn't have a choice. Yeah, that's the 18-month contract. That's the premise. That's the idea. You can't do a big reason like that. Martin Samuel, if he was here, he was hired, gone, come and win the World Cup. Like, that's the thing. And your point about the questions that creep in is right. And I think if it carries on like this, the thing that Southgate did, fine, tactics weren't always the best, he couldn't get us over the line, but England went into the last World Cup and the last Euros with fans going, can we win this? Can we win this? How do we get Cole Palmer in? the questions were limited, few and positive.

25:51If this keeps going on, they're going to go into the World Cup going, are we going to get out the group stage? Oh, I don't fancy Morocco. Like that's where it's heading now. Seriously, I mean, I know you're all laughing. And that's what the England was back in the day. It's like, oh, I don't want to go down that route because we'll face Argentina. Southgate was like, we might win this tournament. Like it might not be exciting. And how do we get Cole Palmer in? But we might win this. Thomas Tuchel is like, I don't know what the hell this is. I don't know what the hell the team is. I don't know what the formation is I don't know if we'll get past the round of 16 Yeah look obviously a lot of this is about the atmosphere and the environment and this feeling within the team and he's just spent a week in Spain trying to you know Johnny's previous pieces were all about the vibes man and stuff so he's tried to do it it's not like he's discounting all these things he appreciates that they've got to build a kind of a unity and a sort of collective sense of purpose and all that between now and the World Cup but what we're also realising is it's not it's not easy what Southgate managed to achieve in that sense.

26:51That was no mean feat. Who did that before in an England manager really? Terry Venables? So like... I don't want to speak... I wouldn't do a revisionism of Southgate. It needed to come to an end at that point. I don't think there was any debate about that. Just very quickly and I'd say this because I said to my pals, Gregor I adopted your catchphrase. It doesn't have to be a culture war where you're like either we should never have got rid of Southgate or or pro Tuchel, you can be like, Gareth has been done brilliantly and come to an end. And, you know, both things can be true. But the problem, both things can be true.

27:24The problem that Tuchel has, the problem Tuchel has is, there is an, I say it's artificial, it's the World Cup, but it is artificial because there's an 18 month contract. It's like, it's like gun for hire, isn't it? So like, come and do it. Well, that's completely different and that's not really how you can progress a team to build an international football, certainly in the way that Tuchel probably would want to do. And particularly in light of the expectations. We've got all these high quality players and we're expecting glorious free-flowing football and it's probably not going to happen. Yeah, but he's talked, I mean, he has talked up and actually I'm already slightly irritated by him talking about the identity, the clarity, the rhythm, the fluidity, the repetition of patterns.

28:05It's not going to happen. I understand that's the goal, but we've seen none of it yet. I tell you, there was a repetition of a pattern that was Senegal nicking the ball and flooding forward with pace that I found incredibly exciting. And that made me think as well, back to conversations we had during the Euros about England's lack of pace. Not that they don't have it in the team, but they never seem to play with it. And apart from when Morgan Gibbs-White came on and as they dropped deep and all of a sudden the lads were doing backheels and flicks and things and bombing forward, that looked exciting.

28:31But they just never seem to be able to play with the pace that is in the team. Is that fair? A couple of moments, a couple of bits in the first half where people tried to release Gordon in behind and stuff. So Gordon and the team does add that, that sort of like penetrative runs in behind sort of thing but no I kind of I do agree with you ultimately and like the experiment of what was essentially a 4-4-2 with Ezzie and Kane both kind of drop in yeah as I say experiments put them in the bin you'll know what his formation he must know he knows how he wants to play and he knows roughly who he wants to play and there will be some big calls there has to be some massive calls and this is the You think Tuchel coming in will be able to screen out the kind of criticism and the questions he's going to get.

29:17But there's going to be a point where he's going, right, I'm not going to play with Foden. I'm not going to play with Palmer. I'm not going to play with Kane. I'm going to play the way that's going to win us games. And that's the questions that are always seemingly avoided. And that's the issues that Southgate sort of run into towards the end. He's trying to mix everything together. There will come a point and then he'll have to kind of stick to it. Yeah. Well, listeners, if you've got views on Thomas Tuchel and the situation with England, do get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk and we'll maybe read some of the views out on future shows guys I just wanted to quickly mention another topic from Monday's show Tottenham Hotspur I mean I'm not going to be able to be a Tottenham fan for at least a season I'm very I'm very upset about Ange Bostokoglu very upset it was my day off on Monday I genuinely nearly came in to host the podcast I was that upset about it that's your birthday yeah I know but that's how committed I was to Ange Bostokoglu I was like, I should have sacced off the chilled out day on my birthday and come in.

30:12Yeah, anyway. So I'm going to get it off my chest now. What are you doing, Tottenham? What are you doing? But more importantly, as the new cycle progresses, and it looks like Thomas Frank is going to be the next Tottenham manager, what are you doing, Thomas Frank? What are you doing? You're going to go to a club that is still fairly uncertain in terms of where they stand in the table, in terms of players, ability, you know, solid foundations. it's a club that is a little bit of a mess changes in the boardroom things like that don't know who the star players are yes they've got the Champions League they've also just had their best moment in like 20 years and now you're coming in this has got a surely am I wrong?

30:52this is the worst choice for Thomas Frank I'm wrong this is the right choice for Thomas Frank how? how is it the right choice? what other jobs is he going to get? if he wants to take the step to the Premier League what's he going to get? he could get anything but better than this but what's coming up? oh anything could literally Man United Wow, that was a great gig. Man United. But Man United haven't just had their best moment in 20 years. Man United, we talked about this, are flawed in terms of the nature of their squad and their structure. Chelsea? Chelsea when they sack off Enzo Mareska? Chelsea, but Mareska's not changing.

31:20He's not going yet. Anytime soon. How do you know? Well. We'll ask you about that in the second half of the show. I must be... You think it's a good... With a club like Brentford, you're walking a tightrope, right? But do you think it's a good move? But you're making the argument on the basis of lesser options. When Eddie Howe was at Bournemouth, there was an amount of time that you can keep performing miracles, essentially. Every transfer has to hit. Any miss, you're in trouble, you go down. And that's what happened when they had injuries. And then the job that Eddie Howe got was Newcastle on the verge of relegation.

31:49And they were questioning him then. But with that one, the only way was up. My problem with the Tottenham one is that it's still very murky, still very uncertain. They won the Europa League. They won the Europa League. They won a European competition. everyone had gone from happy for another 17 years next time oh my god he's under so much pressure and he's like got this opportunity listen the reason I'm saying it is that I love Thomas Frank I want good things for Thomas Frank just like I wanted good things for Ange Posto Coglu and that bloody club chewed him up and spat him out Tottenham fans I'm sorry I'm not going to get over this if you're an ambitious coach you go I can go in there and do a job yeah they all think that though but otherwise you're there in your queue where you're just sitting in a job for life at Brentford which as I said there are risks Brentford have an incredibly low wage pool.

32:36They're unbelievably run. Brilliant recruitment. But it is just injuries when you're at that level for one of those clubs in that mid-packet. Suddenly you can be in trouble. Now, Premier League and the way it's become, it's almost Super League-esque. So you could make that case. But I still think, if you're frank, you think my window of opportunity to make a step is small. I can't die not trying. You know what I mean? I'm worried for him. I'm not excited for him, but I'm worried for him. It's not an easy job. Of course it's not. That's my point. But the squad's good. There's a young squad there.

33:08There's a quarter that he can build around. You know, Postacoglu's done a lot of the tricky stuff, you know, moving on from the Pochettino generation, the Canes, the Dyers. That's all. That's done. There's a base now from which he can build some good, talented young players in there. Yes, we've seen that it's not the strongest in terms of depth and, you know, injuries were a big factor in that. But you've got to go in there and he's got to back himself to be competitive with Tottenham. fundamentally kind of sounds like you both kind of agree with me but you're just telling me I'm wrong anyway fundamentally the opportunity may never come again that's got to be that's fair but I'm worried Anjipas Koglu if you're listening you're welcome on the game podcast any time just before we take a break I'm going to leave you with this comment from Nick Hales who's a Times subscriber commenting under the match report from the Andorra game which is just a nice little tidbit to throw into a football podcast in June 12th I forgot it was on and I'm glad I missed it I love football love it but for goodness sake can we not just have a break for it for eight weeks no football give them a break give us a break give cricket, tennis and golf some air time this is the sort of result and performance you get when you stick burnt out athletes into a game of low jeopardy that nobody is really interested in just give it a rest for a couple of months and that includes the World Club Championship we're about to get well Nick I've got some good news we're going to talk about the Club World Cup in the second half of the show but not before I ask a quiz question which is who am I talking about when I say a former footballer who played for PSV Eindhoven Barcelona and Valencia and scored twice for Vasco da Gama against Manchester United in January 2000 in the group stage of the Club World Championships.

34:41Find out after the break.

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36:47Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Pete Rutzler, Gregor Robertson and joining us for the first time this season, Kit Shepard. Hello, Kit. Hello, Tom. Just how excited are you to be here? Very excited. Very little clap. Yeah, little clap, little clap. We've started introducing a little clap this season for significant members of the team. You're here to talk about the Women's Euros, which we're going to talk about at the end of the show. You also missed the quiz question. So this would be very impressive if you got the answer to this because Gregor, even Super Gregor, took his time.

37:18Did you get it? I had someone else in my mind and that allowed no room for the person it is. But the answer was, answer was, anyone? Romario. Romario. Who, by the way, did you know he's a senator for Rio de Janeiro? No. He's been a politician for about 15 years. He's also the third on the all-time list of Brazil's league top scorers with 155 goals. He's the ninth highest goal scorer in the history of football with 784 goals in 1 ,002 games. And now he's a politician. What a life. Amazing. Anyway. What a player. What a player. Very good player. Kit, probably a little bit before your time. Slightly before my time.

37:56I know he's good. You've heard of him. Anyway, very briefly, just because we're in a little bit of silly season, I wanted to mention, I had the good fortune of going to watch Bruce Springsteen at Anfield at the weekend. Obviously packed in with a lot of Liverpool fans, a lot of people from the city. And I overheard a fantastic conversation with a bloke who had bought tickets for himself and his mate, but it had ended up coming with him and his wife. His wife, not a massive Bruce Springsteen fan, but was there to take up the ticket. The reason being was that his pal is an Everton season ticket holder and despite being a massive Bruce Springsteen fan, refused to go to watch The Boss because it was at Anfield.

38:35Which, in terms of football stubbornness, I would say is right up there. So if you are listening, whoever you are out there, I applaud you. Greg, have you got any good football stubbornness from down the years? I don't know. I mean, beyond like colours, I mean like, although I was a Celtic fan, the Celtic, they're sort of green or blue. I remember my dad would frown heavily if I had any of them blue on, basically. But I would also say, I was at Sam Fender at the weekend. We're very musical, this podcast. Yeah, we were, yeah. So cultured. And he wears his Newcastle fandom on his shirt and he comes out to local hero and all this.

39:10Sea of like Newcastle strips in the crowd. But I went to the playoff final and Sunderland fans have actually got a song about Sam Fender which is not very friendly so I would imagine there'll be a similar stubbornness about Sam Fender and the Sunderland fans I've got a mate who's a massive Chelsea fan and he's to the point where no other team exists when you play FIFA for example when you play FIFA tournaments you do loads of different teams just refuses point blank to be anyone but Chelsea even if you're trying to do the level I mean I'd be like we've got to do League 1, League 2 teams it'd be Chelsea anyway It was his stag dude last weekend.

39:48And they do a Mr. and Mrs. You know, loads of questions. And so obviously he asked, our friend asked his fiancée, you know, who's his favourite player? And the answer was to his horror, Steven Gerrard. Oh, no. Which is properly wedding in jeopardy. Oh, no. Response. Listen, stick together, guys. It'll all be worth it. It's just football. It's just a bit of fun. Now, it's kind of like Ask Pete Greger section of the show, because we're going to talk to the two men solely responsible for the never-ending football season. It's all your fault, you two. You're the reason that we're still here, still podcasting, still pumped for the football.

40:29Pete, we're going to start with you, the Club World Cup. You fly out tomorrow? Saturday. Saturday. Terrible schedule for me. I'm supposed to be planning football. I don't know when you're flying. But anyway, you fly out this weekend, which is when the tournament begins on Sunday. Big games, Bayern Munich against Auckland City, Ali against Inter Miami, PSG, Atletico Madrid. That actually sounds quite good. Palmeiras against Porto. Are you excited?

40:58You have to say yes or we cancel your flight. Yes, I cannot wait to go. No, I'm curious. Curious is a good word. I think is the best way to describe it. I mean, it's been such a strange sort of build up to it. in terms of, particularly from a European perspective, about the impact of squads that are already tired, and are they playing too many games? Chelsea and Manchester City, if they go all the way in this tournament, the players will then have a three-week break, and then the Premier League season starts one week later. What kind of impact is that going to have? What kind of impact is the finances going to have, not just on the big teams?

41:38We're talking a massive envelope here. The winner is looking at£97 million, and that's before the bonuses for winning games and things. That's great for PSR. But if you're a smaller team, you mentioned Auckland City, what's that going to do to their domestic leagues? So yeah, there's lots of different elements to it that make it intriguing. I think, I mean, it's been quite downbeat, I think, from a European perspective. Oh, you know, more games, blah, blah, blah. But I think if you look at the clubs from South America, you look at clubs from Africa, this is huge for them. I mean, the Club World Cup's always been big, particularly for the Brazilian clubs.

42:10they've always taken it super seriously I think it'll be the same here and I think we've seen that in some of the little things we've seen like for example Palmeiras making sure that Esteval Willian is fantastically exciting attacking midfielder who's going to Chelsea he has to stay for this tournament before going to Chelsea that was part of the agreement that took him to the club Flamengo signing Jorginho they want to take this super seriously and part of that is money but for them it's prestige I was saying to Pierre earlier just reminded that when I went to Ecuador to do that piece about Moises Caicedo and that was two years ago Independiente del Valle that was I spoke to their owner and this was one of their biggest aims and goals was to be was to qualify for the Club World Cup you do have to remember that the attitude towards towards this competition is very different for places for other places in the world so although this is all about like tiring end of the season it's all about money you know which is all true Of course, yeah.

43:10It's us. It's kind of European clubs, and in particular Premier League clubs, that are feeling that way. So Pete, you're going out to cover Chelsea, of course. Paul Hurst is going to be there following City. Just give us Chelsea's kind of itinerary in terms of their games and things. Yeah, so first game is Monday. Monday, yeah. I forgot what the first game was. Atlanta, which is against LAFC, who have come in after a playoff. I think it was Club Lyon was the original opponent, but they were expelled for multi-club rules. Then from Atlanta, it's to Philadelphia, where Chelsea will play the next two group games.

43:47They've got Flamenco and Tunis. I think Chelsea are mainly based in Philadelphia. And then from there, it's... It's anybody's guess. It's the round of 16 and then we get knockout soccer. Exactly that, knockout soccer. Interesting build-up for Chelsea, even in terms of just this weird transfer window we've seen City have done quite a bit of business we know that they're trying to really revamp their squad yeah loads of signings spend a lot of money Chelsea haven't really done anything that we didn't expect as in players have come in Dario Asugo we already knew about was joining from Sporting Lisbon Mike Penders the goalkeeper has joined from Genk and who is the other one Mamadou Saar signed from Sister Club Strasbourg.

44:36They're all going out there. But there was obviously talk of signing Mike Manuel, France's number one goalkeeper, which was a little bit unexpected because, you know, the constant noise... He's not 12 years old. No. Well, exactly that, yeah. But also because Chelsea had been like, you know, we're happy with our keepers, we're going to assess them in the summer. And then suddenly he got out and... What was described as opportunistic because he's in the final year of his contract at Milan, Do you think Chelsea just see a transfer window and go, well, we've got to sign someone. Do you mean there's a window?

45:10We've got to sign people. Give him an eight-year contract. Who is he? I don't know. I don't care. Quick. I would actually say that his signing, if it happened, would point to a better chance of them being successful in the future. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but it didn't happen. Well, it may still. It just won't happen before the Club World Cup. Yeah. Jamie Gittins is the other one, which I think we sort of expect to happen. It's not happened, obviously, before the deadline, which Chelsea tried to do on Tuesday. they tried to, you know, I think they made a£42 million offer, but Dortmund weren't budging on their asking price, he's got a£51 million release clause Gittins is going with Dortmund to the tournament, but the window reopens on Monday I think, so let's see what happens with that but yeah, and then when the squad was announced, Chelsea didn't include George Petrovic the keeper, so just go back to the keeper topic, the view was that, you know, you'd have Sanchez, Jorgensen Penders the new keeper and then Petrovic they'd be assessed who's going to come out at number one Petrovic isn't included in that and that's despite him having a really strong season so that hasn't gone down particularly well with the fan base he's got a lot of interest though I think he wants a new start with guaranteed minutes but Chelsea have also left behind all the loanees so anyone who was out on loan apart from Andre Santos exciting midfielder is at Strasbourg again so likes of Jao Felix aren't going Axel de Sassi was at Villa is not going Raheem Sterling is not going Ben Chilwell is not going Renato Vega is not going Juventus tried to keep him for this tournament that didn't happen so he's now staying in London for it so they have got a group of players again that won't be part of this team it kind of makes it a weird mini season in between like where I keep talking about this season never ending it's like with the transfer window and when with players coming back it's like it's own little mini mini universe in a way it's complete it's like I'm getting a headache listening to you talking about all the different ramifications and there was a thing about like also like teams are signing players for it so I think Ganti was trying to be signed by another Saudi Arabian club on loan for the competition yeah like it's you're right it is like a strange little mini sort of Ronaldo rumours yeah all the Ronaldo rumours as well I wouldn't be surprised if he's like wheeled out as well that'd be good wouldn't it if Ronaldo was like your kind of bonus that you could just throw on he can only Maybe they're signing by FIFA that they just elect.

47:31Yeah, yeah, they just like drop on at the pitch. Or like that thing of, you know, you do one. You mentioned Stagdus. You've got to play for both teams. He just like runs up and down and he just scores, just can run in and score at any time. I mean, honestly, Gianni and the lads will be listening to this one. That's a great idea. They've got Messi in, so should Ronaldo is. They've got Messi in, get Ronaldo in. I mean, we're talking about, let's just do a little bit of genuine analysis before I descend into complete nonsense. in terms of the signings that Manchester City have made Gregor and there's a lot of them making moves quickly the implication is that you get to take them on this tournament see what they're like it's kind of like a pre-season it's kind of like a mini-season it's a significant statement from City and Pep Guardiola isn't it to have made all these signings so quickly and spent all this money and they get to hit the ground running very very early Yeah I mean it's been interesting the way Pep's spoken about it as well you know they're bringing all their families it's like he almost speaks about it like it's a holiday so we have to contrast that too I mean I think you'll see it as a sort of early pre-season camp yeah and clearly having all the new players in place before then is a massive plus and like they're pretty ominous I mean Rinders is the kind of midfielder that they needed it's like lots of energy and Cherki we spoke about with Hamza on Mondays is like as a star and a bit of a bargain as well from Lyon so yeah I think all in all their business looks looks like it's been pretty ominous Turkey's had a really sort of reputation changing season not that he's never not been rated like he's always been known that he's been an exceptional talent but I was thinking back to last summer last summer on deadline day Fulham had an offer accepted for Turkey and it was about £12 million now Lyon have had their financial issues they still do they're looking to sell Cherky was having issues with the coach I mean Cherky was not going to join Fulham that's why it didn't happen but even as you say that feels like the fee that City of Péamaste paid for him it's about four I think it's 30 around 30 to 40 that feels like exceptional value for a player of his talent but it does underline how this season it's almost like they've sort of waited you know like all these clubs have known about him but not been quite sure and they just wanted something that would reassure them that he would be a good addition, that he could be a player that they could add to their group.

49:59There was this sort of doubt that this season has just been swept aside because he's played so many minutes. But what were the doubts? Was it like he's off the ball stuff? I mean, you would look at him and he's like, he's quite thick set. He's like, you feel like it could be a bit of a Jack Grealish kind of, you know, mercurial player, maybe not the systems man. He's a really creative number 10 type. you know he likes he's not really best known for his off the ball exactly yeah I think because he's had those ins and outs with the teams I think there's been this sort of sense of what's he like within a group what's he like in terms of his you know buying into what a coach and manager want to do and his relationships with others within a team but his on the ball ability is exceptional I mean the goal he scored against Spain in that remarkable 5-4 game was it last week yeah kind of just reflects how much of an impact he had and he's young very young yeah 21 I think isn't he Greg an interesting point makes an interesting point there about Pep Guardiola and the kind of holiday that Manchester City are going to have whilst trying to win a tournament and blood some new talent Pete just finally what do you think Chelsea are heading into this what are the vibes like we've talked a lot about the vibes at Chelsea all season what are they going for are they going for Champions League they need to win the Conference League they got all those things done Enzo Mureska would probably ideally like a genuine holiday, but he's not got one.

51:21How will he and the camp and the club be approaching this tournament, do you think? Well, I think it's about building momentum now. They came into the last two games where everything came down to them. Forest for Champions League, Batiste for some silverware in the Conference League. They won both. They're now in a much better position. The mood is a lot better around the team. They've got that first bit of silverware. They're in the Champions League. financially it's much better for them in terms of their PSR position, I mean they're in a strong position anyway because they sold the women's team to the sister company as you do so they're in a good position in that sense and I think for them the Club World Cup is about just building on it there's a real sense of we want to do well in this competition, I think they've always had this sense of taking it seriously, it's always been in the planning for this year because this year was seen as once Moresk was appointed it was like right this is one long season right the way through through this summer into the next one we're going to treat that as one with the Club World Cup in mind so Just quickly on that I mean is that true?

52:31Is that a feeling that comes from up on high? Like with any of these things This is the thing the conflict between what this means to clubs and what it means to their staff has been pretty extraordinary I remember Carlo Ancelotti's comments of it saying we will not be playing in this tournament and they had to quickly roll back on it because we have a dude like yeah we are yeah we are so there's no doubt there's no doubt that for the Premier League teams I'm talking about and I would imagine like there's some feeling about this for some other European teams the players are like we do not want to be here the managers are like we do not want to be here I think that's been quite consistent from Chelsea about this is how we're going to focus this season so I think for Mureska it wouldn't be a surprise I think what's been different is that you know at the start of the season we looked at their squad they've got two squads Conference League whatever and it felt like ah well this kind of makes sense with the Club World Cup because you actually might be able to rotate in a way that will allow some players a break for a few weeks and then you're going to be okay for the Premier League the way they've done their squad they've only named 28 players out of a possible 35 and I mentioned all of the ones that have gone on loan you're looking at the same players and personnel who went and secured Champions League football and won the Conference League in the second half of the season so that's different that's the same team and that will almost inevitably will have an impact on the early part of next season.

53:45And that's where I think there's been a change. Yeah, very interesting what will happen with the Club World Cup. How seriously will the teams take it? How seriously will we take it? We will find out. We don't know. The games are on at 2am. We might be going back and going, did you see that game? It was amazing. Anyway, what were you giving me a call? So Pete, you're coming home. Pete, come on. No one's reading it. No one cares. Anyway, one thing we are definitely excited about is the Women's Euros and England's defence of their crown. Just as we're getting prepared for the round of 16 games in the FIFA Club World Cup, the women's tournament will start in Switzerland.

54:21Kit, you're going to be there. So much football. So much football. It never ends. Now, in the first half of the show, we were talking about Thomas Tuchel and the England men's side and the difficult, I'm going to keep using the word vibes. That's fair, isn't it, Craig? We're all about vibes on this show. But it's been a challenging couple of weeks and months for Serena Viegman and the England camp, hasn't it, in terms of performances on the pitch? that defeat against Spain most recently, and in terms of the players making themselves unavailable or retiring from international duty. Just give us a summary.

54:52You were at those games. You were at those press conferences. How should fans be thinking about this England team? Yeah, so on the pitch, first of all, they're inconsistent. So they've had some, in 2025, Alain have had some brilliant moments. They beat Spain at Wembley. They won 5-0 at Belgium and looked absolutely a million dollars. It was Euro 22 all over again. Happy days. They've also, they lost to Spain, as you said, last week. They lost to Belgium four days after beating them 5-0 in Belgium. So that kind of illustrates it perfectly, how inconsistent England are on the pitch. They're absolutely good enough to win the Euros.

55:26They're probably not the favourites, or they're not the favourites. Spain are the favourites. England are one of probably four or five teams, and that kind of just below Spain who could win it, but they're an outside bet. But they can win it. Off the pitch, that's where it gets interesting. He says with a grin. He's like, this has been your life for the last couple of weeks, hasn't it? It really has. We got out of the Champions League final, which Arsenal won, which is obviously fantastic, and we're maybe quietly hoping for a steadier week. And then Mary Earps retired on a Tuesday morning, and since then it's been a whirlwind.

55:57So Earps retired after being told she wasn't going to be the number one for England. That's now Hannah Hampton. We then saw Frank Herbie retire as well from international duty. She was a bit different because she was told she wasn't going to be in the Euro squad by Serena Wigman. But Kirby refused to go on standby for the tournament, effectively brought her retirement plans forward once she's told she wasn't selected. And then Millie Bright, she hasn't retired, but she's effectively said she doesn't want to be selected for this tournament to protect her mental and physical well-being. So three, obviously different circumstances, but three kind of absolute icons of Euro 22 that aren't going to be there and all for reasons that are at least not a conventional injury for kind of more motivational reasons.

56:40And in terms of, we were talking about it when I was back on the editing floor, but that press conference was Serena Vigman talking about it and you were there and our colleague Molly Hudson was there who covered the win in 22. Like, she is a coach who can handle this, right? You mentioned in your analysis there about England can still win this tournament. As much as we in the media are saying this is a disastrous bit of preparation and it's not ideal, England are still in a good place to defend their title. Would that be fair with this particular with Wiegmann in charge? Yeah, so the first thing to say about Wiegmann is she has played 12-1-12 at European Championships.

57:16So she won it with the Netherlands in 2017 and she obviously won it with England in 2022. She's also reached two World Cup finals. It's a pretty good record, isn't it? She knows how to get a team to perform at a major tournament. And I think that press conference was really important. This was last Thursday, just after the squad had been announced. And there was a very different kind of atmosphere in that press conference from, say, the one two days ago we had in Barcelona, about two seconds after Fran Kirby had retired. One in Spain was very tense between Serena and the media. It was just like, oh, this is getting a bit frosty between us.

57:50It's almost like you hear the stories of how it often is on the men's side. but on Thursday once the squad was announced Serena seemed a lot more relaxed and we were all kind of there like oh we're going to have another massive kind of back and forth we're going to talk about Millie Bright we're going to talk more about Earps and Kirby is this a crisis and Serena was kind of relaxed she seemed again happy that I've got my players I know what I'm working with and she was also almost unapologetic in a way she didn't name anyone but she said I don't go around the bush when when I have to tell people unpleasant news.

58:25Beat her in the bush. Yeah, yeah. She meant beats her in the bush. Her English is better than my Dutch, so I won't criticise a team man. No. But yeah, she was a combination of relaxed and also just, I have my leadership style and if you don't like it, then I'm not going to change this because individuals don't like it. Because I do think that's interesting context for some listeners who maybe kind of followed this in a not, you know, a specific way. Molly Hudson who was there as I say with you at that press conference has uncovered the previous tournaments she and you have both made this point to me that this situation with say Mary Earps being told you're not going to be number one you'd be my number two Frank Kirby you need to be on standby this is not like new hard nose Serena Vigman this is how she has always been and actually a lot of the players Gregor we were discussing this before previous players have said this is great I've got a clear role I know what my job is this is perfect it's just that maybe her instructions this time I've not been what the players wanted.

59:23This is not a new Serena Vigman. This is how she's always been. No, she's quite blunt. She's quite Dutch is often the way people describe it. She's just forefront and that's how it is. She's honest with people. And there's players in Molly's, it was a fantastic piece. She said, it was on record saying she appreciated the honesty. I think Jill Scott said the same thing and many other of the famous lionesses. So yeah, this isn't a, as you say, a kind of a new Serena. She's kind of taking a different approach. She's been consistent. and her message is you're going to have to adapt to me. Not that she's a tyrant.

59:56No, no. She's a very, like people speak glimly about her, especially when they're in the team. Yeah. But she's also got kind of principles that she's not going to sway from just if a few people aren't happy with their roles. Yeah. Greg, are you going to be watching it with the kids back home? You talked about your daughter having a wand of her left foot like you. Scotland not in the tournament. Are you going to let her cheer on England? Yes. Speaking of stubborn people in football. Just like the mainstream, up to the final. yeah yeah I'll support you up to the final absolutely now Kit just into we're talking about the players who are not there just to finish to give listeners a sense of players who are there that we can get excited about because this often happens with international tournaments both in the men's and the women's game we switch on and we suddenly fall in love with all these new superstars so who who should people be keeping an eye on and we're hopefully going to be hearing a lot more from you when the tournament gets a little bit closer but just give us a positive payoff a sense of the players to be excited about.

1:00:49Yeah, so the other big news out of last Thursday when the squad was announced was that Lauren James was in it, which we weren't sure about because she's been struggling with a hamstring injury. People will remember her if they watch a 23 World Cup. They might remember her getting sent off against Nigeria, but they might also remember her absolutely tearing it up in the group stage. And if she's fit, there's always potential for the positive side of the similar kind of brilliant performances to happen because she's England's most naturally gifted player and something they didn't actually have at Euro 22.

1:01:18She came in in the months after that. So definitely look out for Lauren James. Definitely look out for some of the Arsenal contingent who are coming off that amazing Champions League final victory over Barcelona. A Barcelona team that includes a lot of the Spain players as well, which I think is important. So Alessio Russo has had a fantastic season. Leah Williamson had started slowly this season, but really grew and just in every big game seems to perform. and then there's not loads of super young players, but you've got a couple of, again, people that won there in Euro 22, people like Grace Clinton, who's come from the last 12 months.

1:01:52She's a midfielder from Man United. Jess Park, another midfielder from Man City. And then the one kind of absolute bolter, wild card, is Michelle Ajumann, who's 19. Kind of your casual women's football fan won't have heard of her, but she has played 10 minutes of international football and she scored an absolutely stunning volley 41 seconds into her debut. So what's not to like? And if she gets on, she's the classic player you could just chuck on you. 1-0 down in a knockout game. Michelle, go and be fearless, go and be 19 and save us, save our tournament. Well, we're sceptical about whether we're excited about the men's club World Cup, but I'm pumped for the women's Euros now.

1:02:31Kit, you've really got me excited. Kit Shepard, thank you very much for joining us. Hopefully we'll be hearing a lot more from you when the women's Euros get going. Pete Rutzler and Gregor Robertson, thank you very much for joining me too thank you too for listening as I say the football keeps going we're going to keep podcasting we don't know when we don't know where we don't know how but we'll be coming at you very soon I'm sure see you then

1:03:09Vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions requires iPhone 11 or later.