Big season review and awards

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0:47Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. West Ham relegated Tottenham, survive Sunderland in Europe. Arsenal get their trophy and there were plenty of farewells on the final day of this remarkable Premier League season. On today's show, we'll discuss all of that, rate the performance of all 20 teams and dish out some end-of-season awards. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today, we have the football reporter who covers clubs in London with a focus on Arsenal. It's Gary Jacob. The reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Chelsea. It's Peter Rutzler and the former Marseille Millwall and Ireland striker Tony Cascarino is here with me too.

1:25Chaps, welcome to the air-conditioned splendour of News UK. Pete and Tony, you've both got shorts on. Yes. I've got the worst-fitting Lincoln shirt of my collection so far. Definitely too small. I'm looking smart. You're looking very smart, Gary. I'm always smart. Always very smart. Can I just say, Tom? Yes. I've known you how many years now? Ten years now. Is it ten? Yes. Since you've been married, you've put on a bit of timber, isn't it? Oh! You're out of nowhere. That's straight in. Wow. Do you know what the fun is? Are you in the comfort zone? You told him there's no VAR today. Exactly. And there's no VAR for that.

2:00The funny thing is, listeners and viewers on YouTube, I said just before the producers said, right, off we go, I said, right, chaps, let's have some fun. It's the end of season. Let's just have a right laugh. And in comes Tony Cascarino with a little elbow off the ball. Tough to take that tone, actually, but maybe I'll get into pre-season shape. Get ready for next season. You've got a lot on your plate at the moment, a young one. Yeah, thanks very much. Yeah, a bit of leeway. Honestly, unbelievable. Anyway, terrible, terrible start to the show. And it was a terrible end to the Premier League season for West Ham United.

2:30Despite a 3-0 win at home to Leeds United, they are relegated from the Premier League because of Tottenham's victory against Everton. Tony, I want to start with you. Just some reaction. Gary, I'll come to you in a second because we've got some news on the Times website as we hit record on this show that Nuno Espirito Santo is under increasing pressure. He's having talks with West Ham about his future. But, Tony, for the club and for the fans, a desperate day. It always is whenever a team gets relegated. But for West Ham, this has been maybe bubbling in the background for a while. It's not a surprise.

3:01I spoke in the summer about West Ham and my concerns as a football club. They'd wasted a lot of money, overspent on players. And sometimes it comes back and bites you in the backside, changing managers. I don't feel that long ago it was Lopetegui, then Graham Potter, then Nuno. Did Nuno make some mistakes? Yeah, of course he did along the way. I mean, I was surprised. I was at the Crystal Palace game where it was a nil-nil. They offered nothing. That was the one, wasn't it? That was the one where in the run of things, that was one West Ham fans were going. Well, they were in Europe playing games.

3:33Can you go for it? They've got to get something. I'd say get something. They did. They got a draw. But I thought it was a golden opportunity to have a go at Crystal Palace. And when they drew that, because if you look at Nuno's record, they still accumulated quite a few points under his tenure. But there's moments where you could... Also, he played... He did switch early on. He went the right-back played left-back and the left-back played right-back. All these sort of things were going on. A bit chaotic, wasn't it? Yeah, so I'm not surprised. Not surprised, says Tony Cascarino. Pete, as I say in my intro there, for a lot of West Ham's, this has felt like it's been coming all season.

4:08Martin Samuel, our colleague, of course, is saying on this podcast for a long time, he's never believed that they would get out of it, even when they had those chances that Tony highlighted. They're in a bad state, aren't they? They are, yeah. they're in a mess I did feel because I saw them I've seen them a couple of times this season I saw them when they went to Stamford Bridge and played really really well but threw away a 2-0 lead it felt like that Nuno had sort of got some momentum going with the team particularly after Paquetar left the way Mateus Fernandes stepped up a lot more became far more influential he was a fantastic player I'm sure he'll stay in the Premier League next season but they just had that run where I think Somerville got injured and it just seemed like they had that some momentum going they had these three games where they dropped points to obviously it culminated in Newcastle we had the Arsenal game where it was a fine margin decision of BAR there are so many you can sort of pick out and go well this had gone in their direction then maybe even slightly different and they did end up on 39 points which you know is the most teams gone down since Blackpool and Birmingham in 2010-11 yeah I think that's right Birmingham I think their goal difference was worse than West Ham but you're right 10-11 season Yeah, so it's a long time.

5:18But, you know, if buts and maybes, there are a lot of underlying issues that Tony's pointed out. I mean, even Nuno coming in, not having his staff, inheriting a squad that had been overspend, the culture wasn't right, there were some big characters that had left the group. And then you end up in this scenario and it's going to be very, very difficult for them next season. Yeah, Gary, we'll come on to what next in a minute because you've written a brilliant detailed analysis on the Times website, but just catch us up in the studio now with the news story that you and Matt Lawton have just put on the Times website.

5:52He's got talks today with David Sullivan and the decision will be made. There's a clause in the contract, which is he can walk away for free and they can sack him for free. So all the indications are that he's going and he'll go. There's a slight difference of opinion amongst the shareholders at West Ham about which directions to go in. but as of yesterday and last week, my understanding is who he's going to go. He's on a lot of money. He's on£8 million. That will be one issue for the club. Also, does he want to stay in the Championship? Is he the right person for the Championship? There's lots of those sorts of questions.

6:33Has he done a good enough job? I probably would argue no because I think he's stuck. People forget he actually arrived after five games. He didn't arrive after 20 games. And so he's got 36 points off 33 games, which is just over a point in the game. So it's not as if he's kind of suddenly taken 50 points off in pro rata terms. Like Tony says, he got his selections wrong at the start. He had a terrible run in Christmas where he took one point from four games. And he had to apologise to the board for a performance against Wolves, losing to Wolves. And then he's ended OK. but then you think about the Brentford game, losing 3-0 in Newcastle.

7:17So you think six goals in those games. And if your strength is meant to be the team defending, then those are quite key games. And I think Pete's right. He didn't have two coaches come across from Forrest. Forrest, I don't know for certain, but they seem to kind of block the progress of those two coaches coming across. They carried on with Dyche and I don't know where they are now. So that was an issue. Then he brought a coach in from an external. so that was definitely some sort of issues. He had clashes with some players. So there's a big picture and now it's kind of fire sale. Yeah. Tony? Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, the former Bowen, who is quite clearly their best player, had dropped off and he's their captain.

8:02And we all know he's a good player. We all know he's a capable guy. He's late 20s. I don't think they get the fee that they'd expect because everyone's saying around£80 million. they're not going to get 80 million for Joab Bowen because of his age for first and foremost. Yeah, he's 29. When you're 29, no one's going to pay£80 million unless you're the absolute top-notch player in the world. So they're going to have massive challenges going into the summer of who they let go, reducing the budget. I mean, I think they've lost over£100 million, aren't they, in debt this year, which is a big amount.

8:34And just on Nuno as well then, sorry Gary, because you make an interesting point there. I think a lot of maybe neutrals would be looking at the story that we've got on the site and some of the points you're making and go, well, mad, surely they'd want him to stay. But Pete, Tony, to Gary's point about he had quite a while and maybe this is best for both parties to part ways. Pete, what do you think? It's just very toxic, isn't it? I mean, particularly when you go for a season like this, when you've had somebody falling down with players. And then also it's the bigger picture. You know, you're going into the championship with what you need a wholesale restructure.

9:02You need someone to come in and reset. There are people who are disgruntled in the dressing room. You want someone with a fresh voice and fresh ideas. Whatever they do, This has to be with a longer-term perspective beyond just this season. It's got to be a whole... Because of the calibre of players that they're going to lose. Bowen, you expect to go. Fernandes, you expect to go. You're expecting basically the core to be ripped out. And you're going to have to rebuild that and you're going to need someone who can oversee that whole process. So, I mean, it's interesting that if there is that sort of division between the direction the club wants to go in, that's not ideal at this point because whatever they do decide, they have to back them over an extended period because it's when you fall into this, fall into the championship.

9:45I mean, we've seen in the last couple of seasons that teams can drop into the third tier if you don't have that structure right, the next stage of recruitment right. These are quite seriously important weeks for West Ham. See, there's a big thing here. Sorry, Gary, there's a big thing here. West Ham go down. They're probably the most exciting team to go to and attracting a big manager, a good manager, you know, that maybe, as Peter was alluding to, which I totally agree with, and the exciting time, the type of manager you bring in. Because as much as what we all say of who would take jobs, that job, you'd get 200 applicants and some very good ones in that.

10:19So that's the decision the ball have got to find. Who ticks the box of going into the championship with a really ambitious, a team that's going to be feared to go to? I think West Ham have that opportunity. Yeah. Gary, I'll come back to you in just a second. I just wanted to bring in two fans who got in touch. James is a West Ham fan and a listener. He said terrible recruitment, poor managers, and a terrible defence over 18 months is what's to blame. Nuno got us going in the end and fighting, but it's crazy we got to the last day, given the gap to Spurs was 14 points. But we needed one win of those last three at Brentford, Arsenal and Newcastle.

10:52He did take too long to find the best team. It's tough to stomach, but a big clear out ahead. And then Rob also got in touch. He said, and this is probably my next question then, linking to something Tony's just said. He said, Tom, I'm a 40-year season ticket holder. I've seen the club relegated before, but returned to the Premier League First Division within one to two years. Given the parlours financial situation in the club and the clear difficulty for relegated sides to adapt to the Championship, do the panel feel that promotion back quickly is possible this time? Yeah, I think to go back to Tony's point about Bowen, I think he hasn't had a brilliant season or his numbers are good, but he hasn't had a brilliant season.

11:28But the one thing in the times when West Ham had problems before that staying up, Noble and Rice were the leaders in that team who pulled the team through it and they had a lot of leaders. Krufow, Fabianski, all these players. What happened over recruitment in the last couple of years and certainly were under Potter, they got rid of all these characters. So they've got no real leaders. And you need someone in the dressing room to pull you through it and Bowen hasn't really done that in the same way. So, but going forward, Sullivan at Birmingham has gone down. They went down to West Ham. He brought in Sam Allardyce, paced him handsomely, paid the players handsomely and they got up the first time asking the players.

12:05And I think if they do the reset right, they will come up at the first time of asking. Like Tony says, they're a big club. They're going to attract a good manager. They'll probably look at Scott Parker. Bilic nearly was one of the people that were interested in last summer when Potter was going as a possibility and before. And so he might be named as one of them. And like Pete says, there'll be a bit of a clear out and then they kind of need to rebuild. But they still need someone to do the transfers because they haven't got a director of football at the moment. They've gone through a few of those and that's been a bit messy.

12:41So if they get the reset right, there are positives that could come out of this. But they need to get the reset right. It's a big if though, isn't it? Because when you think about the last couple of seasons, that's what's fascinating about West Ham going down and to a slightly lesser extent Wolves. But Wolves have almost started their reset halfway through the Premier League season, didn't they? By bringing in Rob Edwards. Some of their January signings screamed, oh, we're getting ready for the championship here. West Ham have got to start that now. And I mean, it's not that long. We'll be soon talking about the start of the championship season.

13:10It is a big if, isn't it? That's what's interesting about having these teams who yo-yo up and down. Ipswich is a good example. Look, they've come straight back up having gone down last season. They're already prepped. They don't need to do a reset. They don't need to get rid of all these big earners. West Ham have got a lot of work to do, haven't they, Pete? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there is a significant resource advantage. I know we talk about financial situation. in the players that they will sell. But relative to the rest of the division, there is that advantage and it's about using it. It's just a massive if.

13:38You have to get the structure right. Fulham were one of those yo-yo clubs and what they did is they had a group of players that were very, very disgruntled, but they were very good at that level. They were able to be rekindled by Marco Silva and they got a manager that they could get behind and built over a longer period of time. That's what West Ham sort of need to find again. Yeah. Tony? Well, I only take myself back to my time at Marseille and when they got relegated and Marseille went there with an embargo on the football club. And what did they do? They went out about experienced players who had done and delivered.

14:12So West Ham need to find their Tony Cascarino, is what you're saying? I mean, it's always when you're weird, when you feel like you're talking about your scenario. But if you look at a lot of teams that have had that idea, Harry Redknapp done that with Portsmouth. He went out after some really good players at certain times to either keep Portsmouth in the league or take them up, you know, them sorts of scenarios. And I feel like, you see, if you get West Ham going, cool, you can half get some backing from the fans. They get 60 ,000 and watch them. They might not get that next season at the start.

14:44If they're going well, they will. It's a hugely supported club. Yeah, looking forward. And there's some changes in the board which are going to happen, which is David Gold's shares are going to be sold, Crotinz is going to buy. So that's going to at least kind of make the higher up a bit more settled than it's been. It's been a bit unsettled. We've seen Karen Brady go as well. Karen Brady go. So I think that once those sort of changes are made at a higher up and that filters down and they bring a CEO in, maybe the club will then start to kind of be... Do you think Kratinsky wants to be more involved now?

15:13I think given that he's increasing his shareholding to... Because he's increasing the Sheldon to be the same as Sullivan, he's going to have to put a lot more money in to make that equal. And therefore, he's going to want more influence. At the moment, they are discussing about who has the ultimate say. Now, I'd be surprised if Sullivan doesn't still have the ultimate say. But Grotinsky, I think, will have more of a say. But I don't think he's at the point where he wants to take over, despite fans going, well, why doesn't Dave Sullivan say to him? If he did that, he would have bought a few years ago when he had an option price to do it.

15:48And he said he showed no interest. And the reason that he's buying these shares now off David Gold is really because an American sorting were trying to buy him off David Gold. And that could have caused a little bit of an issue inside if they bought them and then bought Kratinsky. They could have knocked Sullivan out. So I think this is kind of a neat way to kind of keep Kratinsky and Sullivan in power. Sounds like a lot of work to me. It's a film. Sounds like a hell of a lot of work to go on at West Ham. West Ham will make the perfect Amazon documentary. They really will. There's an idea to make a bit of money, which I'm sure West Ham...

16:20Well, it won't die in the end, will it? Yeah, surely West Ham fans might not be that key. They were open to it. When Lin Rosinia was there, we asked them the question. Because then they played Rex and was like, would you want them? I was like, yeah, yeah. Well, we'll come on to Chelsea in just a second. But West Ham fans, do keep your opinions coming. Tom.Clark at thetimes.co.uk. and it's not all bad. He gets to face Lincoln next season. One club with loads of work to do despite staying in the Premier League. Tottenham Hotspur surviving on the final day. I thought the celebrations from the fans and the reaction was very fitting.

16:51There was a kind of relief and euphoria at the same time, but it didn't last very long. Sunder, who's a regular listener and has been in touch with me throughout the season, got in touch to say, Tom, I'm so pleased we stayed up after all. I always said it would go to the last match and huge credit to De Zerbe. I'm sure he's due a big bonus that he was promised along the way. It was weirdly euphoric feeling, staying on the final day. An exciting but big summer ahead. No need to find room in the team for the young talent, but above all, we need a goalscorer. Talking there about some of the things Tottenham need to do, Tom Allnott, our colleague, has written a brilliant piece on the Times website now about how this season unfolded and basically the tone being, it can never happen again.

17:30It has happened twice, though. You know, last season, they won the Europa League to sugarcoat it. They have finished 17th twice in the Premier League. It is remarkable when you say that out loud, isn't it, in terms of Tottenham and their standing and their stadium. You know, one of the big six, traditional big six. You know, this is the club that thought they were supposed to be in the Super League when it was a splinter group all that time ago. There's huge work to do here, isn't there, Pete? They've really got away with it this time. Yeah, I think Martin's written about this as well, but a club that's wage billed as a sixth or seventh in the league, to finish where they have in consecutive seasons is pretty remarkable and it speaks to pretty remarkably bad ways of running a football club.

18:07now they've got Roberto De Zerbi in place they've got a fantastic coach who can you know he's the kind of guy you want to build a project around they've got some significant work to do within their squad there's still the talent there you know it's just fundamentally what they really need is to make sure that they don't have a season full of injuries because I mean what's characterised the last two campaigns has been injuries which has really undermined them but if you can get a team that's playing with Kuliseski playing regularly with Maldison playing regularly with Kudas. These players were sort of forgotten about during this sort of chaotic run-in because of their absence.

18:40Maddison's obviously come back and it's just been a sort of vibes guy in the last couple of weeks. Coming off the bench and I've been predicting he's going to score a free kick. But not even coming off the bench. I think there was a period in the Everton game where they just sent him out to warm up because he was getting a bit nervous and the crowd getting behind him. Getting the crowd going, yeah. But look, those players are still there. So getting them out on the field, getting them playing regularly then it should sort of right the ship a little bit. But to be in this position in consecutive seasons is an extraordinary feat and it is such fine margins.

19:09If Aston Villa decided that they were a bit more interested in that Premier League game before the Europa League clash with Forrest, we may be talking about a different story. We have a different slant on West Ham. They have got lucky. Yeah, very much so. But credit has to go to De Zerbi because he came in, had to keep them up. Yeah. Considering how terrible decision it was to bring in Igor Tudor and how badly that unfolded to come in and just get them over the line. Not really playing De Zerbi's football. He just looked at what he had in front of him, got them in a mindset that could just get them over the line because the pressure is unbelievable.

19:44My least favourite group of players in the Premier League. Really? More of Chelsea. No, honestly. He's chomping at the bit, that's why I got Chelsea. No, I honestly would say this because I feel like there's so many Tottenham players who feel like they're doing the club a favour being there. Some of the comments that have come out, some of the actions of the players, they're way too good. I know that phrase, way too good to go down. They are. They should be by a country mile safe atop of them. How can they have up until yesterday only two home wins? How can they, really, with the quality of players?

20:17So for so many internationals. I mean, the big surprising thing for me was Archie Gray. He got left out when Di Zerbi got the job and he'd clearly been the best player at the football club. And he got dropped. And I found that a strange one, but that was for experience. I need experience to get over the lining. And it's proved right. But there's loads of decisions to make. I have always said, if I was doing management, I'd never sign a player that thought he was doing me a favour playing for my football club. It's a great club, Spurs. It really is. It's got an amazing stadium. You'd love to want to play there.

20:51And I keep reflecting back to people like Klinsman, Bell, Kane, all these great players. Son, Sherinham, Robbie Keener I play with. It's a great club. and yet it's been left as like well Tottenham are interested and you sort of think players are not desperate to go there Jürgen Klinsmann they've missed out on big players haven't they you know Gibbs White of course last summer Eze picked by Arsenal oh yeah exactly but I could give it Ted Escherling was there when Jürgen Klinsmann was there he said he joined the club and he so wanted to play for Spurs yeah and they don't attract these players that you know come there with they feel like no I'm Richarlison I'm coming from Everton I just hate that mindset that they sign players, I think with a number of them, that just stink their attitude.

21:38And if it would have gone down, you'd have seen them getting their agents out as quick as ever. Not that other teams don't do that. To get them out of the football club. I think it's been really weird. Yeah. Gary, your reaction to the job that Tottenham have got to do this summer? The first thing you've got to get is a director of football. Lots of director of football jobs. Yeah, I mean, they are. So, Tom, do you want to play? I honestly might throw my CV in. Why not? Why need a new shirt, though? Anyone? Yeah. No, leave everyone at Lincoln. Lincoln are doing a brilliant job. Leave them alone.

22:09But, I mean, it's so important, isn't it, in modern football, Gary? You mentioned it with West Ham and Tottenham now. Having good people running the operation. If you look at both those clubs, you'd say the thing that joins them together is recruitment's been patchy. West Ham, more than patchy. You know, poor at times. And Spurs, a bit patchy. You know, they need to recruit better up front. they're going to need two wingers they're going to need a forward probably a bit more in midfield than they've got and so and also De Zerbe's now going to go in with his tail up and go well okay well I've I've got you I've saved you I've saved you this is what I want now and he's going to have you know his elbows are going to be out and he's going to want a lot more and that's going to be an interesting discussion because again I think the Spurs fans will be worried about the board as it is and about whether this board itself can actually run the club.

23:00So they need to get a director of football in sooner than later. How funny was Vicaria? Oh, what? Basically throttling Deserby at full time. No, after the goal. The chase has the games going on. I'm thinking, oh, blimey. He didn't have the best of seasons, did you? Good bit of energy about him. I mean, Deserby's in a great position, isn't he? If they can get that recruitment right, even some of the recruitment right. And if they can keep him out, because he's got the danger of being a content block too. Of course, he does have that about him. But two back-to-back 17th place finishes is an open goal in terms of your progress for next season.

23:37Now, they don't have Europe. I think, obviously, the Champions League earlier in the season slightly masked what was going on because they did okay in that. I think they finished fourth in the table in the Champions League under Thomas Frank. It puts him in a really strong position, doesn't it, Pete? If they can get... He's in a strong position. He is, yeah. But to do what he wants to do requires a significant amount of change. Even if you take over the season, Tottenham's goals, 40 % of them have been from set plays. It's more than anyone else as a percentage. I mean, even Polini's goal is from a set play.

24:09I think the first goal, give it to Villers from a set play, and then Gallagher puts one in, one of the best goals he's scored. There's nothing from open... De Zerbe is an open play guy. He's got his principles, his possession-based idea. not with that group of players. And so the question is, how do you move them on? Who's going to come in and take them? And then what is he going to be able to do going the other way? And there's a lot of... You think they'll actually get rid of... You think there's a lot to get rid of at Tottenham? Currently, the players that they have at the moment do not necessarily suit what Deserby wants to do.

24:45I mean, even the way they set up against Everton. I was at Brighton yesterday, but just reading about the way they've played, the way they have played, tight. They've been more... You know, aspects have looked quite good. There's absolutely nothing in terms of their final third play, their build-up play through the thirds. We don't see that with Tottenham. No, that's not his... I mean, you only have to look at Marseille now. They finished after he left. They had a really dreadful finish. And a lot's gone on there as well because he walked away from the club with things that were wrong within the club.

25:12Yeah. We also enjoyed, I'm sure you probably saw this, maybe some listeners and viewers spotted it as well, an interaction with our very own Tom Olnot and Roberto de Zerbi during the press conference. Tom assures me that they're best friends. it's all fine but it was remarkable wasn't it Pete this is pretty extraordinary for a reporter to be hailed in by a manager where is that guy where is that Tom guy he's gone to speak to the players and he's like I'm not doing this press until he comes in when he starts and then he walks in and which is strange because he actually said that Tom had been a little bit negative in some of his questioning whereas actually on this podcast he's been incredibly positive and is one of the few journalists who said Tottenham would stay up a few weeks ago so yeah I mean Roberto it's all fine and hopefully you'll be best pals let's finish part one with a look at Arsenal lifting their Premier League trophy at long last.

25:53And I am joined by three of the Times pundits who insisted throughout the season that Arsenal would be champions. Credit to Gary and Pete. You both came on the show after that Man City defeat. And when I pressed you for an answer, you said Arsenal would still win it. And Tony, you said it right back at the start of the season and continued to stand by your decision all the way through. So Mikel Arteta and the boys probably delighted to have you three on the show here. Gary, you were there yesterday for the win against Crystal Palace, but it was all about the celebrations afterwards, wasn't it?

26:19And lovely scenes for Arsenal. I mean, there is a sense for me, even as a neutral, where I'm enjoying and I'm pleased for all of them at the club, given all the near misses and all the moments this season where you thought, oh my gosh, it's happening again. Lovely to see some of those players, Bukayo Saka in particular. Bukayo Saka leading the singing, Declan Rice. You know, it sounds a bit weird, but I thought the nicest moment to me, and it sounds a bit weird, is Eze with his medal next to a Palace Tunnel steward, a bloke he remembered. and then next to another steward. And both of them, he took his photo next to them because he remembered his journey.

26:55And that, to me, kind of sums up, in a way, it sums up as well the type of characters that Mikel's got. He's generally got good characters. People like Rice and Saka are good guys. Well, Rice, there's footage of him being very upset about the West Ham news at full time, isn't it? Absolutely. Off the side of the pitch, yeah. Absolutely. So I think that kind of sums up the type of character. And I think as well the amount of fans outside the stadium before and even after, there were hundreds and hundreds of fans outside the stadium at 8.30, quarter to nine, when we were leaving, quarter to nine, just waiting for the coach to leave.

27:25And I wanted to know, was the coach still in? Or the player still in? They just wanted to look at it. I don't remember it being like that in 2004. I don't remember that kind of euphoria in quite the same way. And it's like this build-up over 22 years. All the pure joy. I mean, they can't enjoy it too much. They've got the other biggest game of their careers coming this weekend. What are the plans? Obviously, you'll be there for us covering this final with Johnny Northcroft and Mike Samuel. They're going on Thursday. So they're going on Thursday. Will they have had a few days off? Has he let them have a bit of a party or was the party last week?

27:58The party was last night and they'll be back into it. So I think Mikel's kind of, he'll give them a little bit of downtime, but he'll expect two, three days of hard training now. And he's got to come up with a plan for what he's going to do at right back. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Tony, Pete, just very quickly on the PSG game, Gary mentioned it in the special episode we did last week after Arsenal's triumph. Now they've got this title. They've got this hex off their back almost. Does help a little bit, maybe, with this Champions League final? Takes the pressure off a little bit because they are the underdogs.

28:32Everyone is expecting PSG to win this game. Arsenal are the complete underdogs. Well, I do laugh with the idea it's a free hit. Not quite a free hit for you. No, it's not a free hit playing the Champions League final. What I do think is that PSG haven't played a team this season which are as good defensively. And I think Arsenal, I mean, Karraskeli is an issue on the left because of the right-back issue. Obviously, Ben White would have been there but been injured. So Mosquera will probably play there, Gary, yeah? Mosquera? I think so, yeah. So it's going to be a massive challenge for that young lad.

29:05He's a real difference maker. He had a really indifferent year at PSG. He was left out of the team at times by Luis Enrique. but the end of the season sort of was typical of the year before where suddenly he came alight and he's a hell of a challenge because I feel that Dure's a problem you know as in he's so quick and nimble he can do things Bacola's been injured but I do feel like if you can stop him more than anyone you've got chances and I'm optimistic about Arsenal you know PSG conceded four against Bayern in the home league you can score against them yeah If Arsenal can come into that game at their physical peak, it's a much more balanced game than I think we assume.

29:48I think you're right, I think most assume, considering the way PSG have reached the final. Luis Enrique sort of mastered this, where he's managed to get the team firing in the home straight. And I think that's an art in itself, and that's quite a difficult thing to do. But defensively, Arsenal are the best in Europe. And Mikel Arteta has realised that. He's leaned into that. They can see the fewest shots. They face a few shots on target. they concede the lowest quality chances of any team. It is best attack, the best defence. And that sets up quite nicely, I think. If anyone's going to unpick Arsenal, you'd expect it to be PSG if they're at their best.

30:24But we've seen how good Arsenal can be when they're at their most intense, when they're at their most physical. And just on a very basic level, there is a physicality advantage. There's a height advantage. And we know how good Arsenal are from set plays. That will maybe... You can't go toe-to-toe with PSG. I think that's just a dangerous standpoint. Can't play that way. Which Bayern actually did. And they paid the ultimate price. I think you have to have some sort of pragmatic style more than just going, we're going to throw punches at you and you fast back. I don't think that suits Arsenal. Whereas with Bayern, it's not like they had a choice.

30:59I think Vincent Kompany spoke really eloquently about this. I can't do a halfway house. I can't sit deep against it. Because that's not the way my team played all season. We've got to go for it and see if we come out on top. They didn't. Arsenal don't necessarily need to go man for man in the field. They don't need to do that because that's not necessarily their strength. Yeah, absolutely. There'll be more preview on Thursday's episode of The Game Podcast. Time for a little break. Loads more still to come in the second half of the show. A little quiz question to take us through to the break. Lots of amazing facts and stats at the end of this Premier League season.

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32:10Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Tony Cascarino, Peter Rutzler and Gary Jacob with me. For the first time ever, the top division next season will have no club with the initial after T in the alphabet. There you go. It's good. Chaps, there's loads of things that I wanted to kind of wrap up from the final day. Lots of amazing achievements this season. It has been a remarkable Premier League campaign for so many sides. So I just wanted to kind of run through the table and give a kind of verdict. Some of them can be very quick. Some of them we can delve into.

32:40And I'm giving the parameters. Times journalists will hate this. Triumph, on par or disaster. There's only three options. On par's good though. That's like your Gregor Robertson option. Exactly. It's the Gregor Robertson sponsored sat on the fence option. It's par, triumph or disaster. So all the way through the table, starting very obviously with Arsenal. First place is obviously a triumph. I think we can all agree with that. Manchester City in second. An FA Cup and a League Cup. and a farewell for Pep Guardiola. On par. Par? Yeah, that's it. Par. Manchester United. This is where it starts to get interesting, I think.

33:12That's a triumph, isn't it? Third? It's 30-odd points more than last season. You wouldn't say that at the start... I'm basing this on the start of the season and expectations and things. Made some good signings. Third, Champions League. Yeah, absolutely. Is there a case for par? Or does everyone think it's a triumph? Absolutely a triumph. Given where he took over from Cameroon, that's... Played some good stuff yesterday, Pete. Yeah. At times. Yeah, a bit disappointed in Brighton. Yeah, Brighton was a weird display. But, I mean, there was a bit of pressure to it. You could feel that it was an important game for them, knowing that European football was on the line.

33:42I mean, Champions League was on the line if three results went their way, which didn't happen. But, I mean, they were in control, and then Bruno Fernandes breaks his assist record from the corner, and then they just all sort of fell apart. A corner which now looks a little bit like it might be an own goal, but they'll just forget that, won't they? Shh! Don't let everyone talk about that, that it's actually an own goal off the Brighton goalkeeper. It's going to be a massive summer for Manchester United, how they spend this money, isn't it? They did spend pretty well, actually, and we're going to talk about some of our signings of the season, but there's an interesting one with Elliot Anderson.

34:08I'm looking at it in a little bit like the Declan Rice signing with Arsenal of a few years ago when everyone was going, oh, but he'll go to City, won't he? He'll go to City. And in the end, he opts for Arsenal. You just feel that if Elliot Anderson, if Manchester United can compete with Manchester City for the signing of Elliot Anderson, suddenly go into the season with Anderson and Maynou next to each other in a two-man midfield. I mean, how likely do we think that actually might be? I would go very. Well, they also like Fernandes, don't they, as well? I'd argue they'd love Anderson. Anderson automatically improves them.

34:41It's City, isn't it? It's the Alan Shearer one of midfield, isn't it? Where Shearer went to Blackburn instead of Man United. And then did the same again with Newcastle as well. Yeah, exactly. So I think he shows incredible potential. Winning the ball and just moving it. He does it really well. Big sum for Man United, but a triumph of a season for them. You mentioned the Rice one. in Astrid did a lot of work starting November, December before they signed him. Arteta in his ear showing him presentations and it's all of that and it's showing the love. But whether Michael Carrick can do that. It's whether Carrick can do that.

35:15I will make you me in this Manchester United team. If he can do that and he has done, maybe he has done that we don't know in the background then that can count for a lot more than the pull of Man City. Aston Villa, fourth place a Europa League title. It's a surefire triumph, isn't it? Liverpool, fifth part or disaster? Disaster, yeah. See, it's good. They're all really getting on board with this ranking system. Do you disagree with anything so far? No, no. I just think it's interesting how the season plays out. And there were times with Liverpool where you were thinking, maybe they're not even going to get Champions League qualification.

35:48They've obviously got that now. But as you say, I can remember. And I went back and listened to some of our preview shows and predictions and things. And the chat around Liverpool, they signed Izak, they signed Eka Tike. And obviously, no one can have predicted all the injuries and obviously the terrible passing of Diogo Jota. But what people expected and what Liverpool delivered. So a disastrous season from them. And then some of the great triumphs, I think we can all agree. Sixth place, Bournemouth, one of the great triumphs. But I would argue an even greater triumph just behind them. Sunderland in seventh.

36:19That is one of the great triumphs. I mean, this is in the context, as we said with West Ham in the first half of the show, of the last couple of seasons. Everyone who goes up goes straight back down again. the churn. And some people will counter with Sunderland that, oh, well, they signed loads of players. But then I'll go back to them and say, well, everyone always says when you sign loads of players, you have to get them to gel. You have to get them to work. Yeah, it's phenomenal. It's an unbelievable job that Regis Labrissi. Yeah, and he, I think that the interesting thing with him was, as you say, it's the number of players they brought in and what has sort of been the bedrock to his success.

36:52He said it, I mean, when they went to Chelsea and played superbly at Stamford Bridge, he just talked about connections, it's all about connection his job wasn't there's nothing more complicated than just making sure everyone was jelly absolutely and it's been the absolute bedrock for amazing so they went up through the playoffs yeah just at the last minute with a late goal as well in a game 24 year old Tom Watson yeah 24 year old oh no yeah yeah yeah amazing amazing absolutely amazing and Bournemouth incredible as well I was going to come back to Bournemouth don't worry Pete already making his case for going to the Europa League in 18th season now but Chelsea is Europe But it is remarkable, isn't it?

37:29I mean, Andoni Araiola, it's got to be one of the biggest mic drop flexes in management ever, isn't it? I'll do a brilliant job. I'll recycle through a load of departures. Lose your best player halfway through the season. One of the players of the season. And then unearth a load of more young talent and go unbeaten. I mean, they've got some incredibly exciting. Kruppi looks like one of the most exciting players I've seen in a long time. And to finish sixth, I mean, Marco Rose, no pressure. Wow, it's an incredible inheritance, isn't it? I suppose, to take on that team in that kind of confidence.

37:59Yeah, to go 18 games unbeaten, to face every team in the second half of the season and not lose to them. I mean, I think it's slightly different because I think where the way the fixtures fell when they played Arsenal, it's not like 19 in a row, but they didn't lose the second game against every opponent. I think only City and Arsenal lost fewer games. I think they set a record for the number of draws, actually. Yeah, they had a good number of draws. They did have a lot of draws. And, you know, the results go a different way. and City turn up. The way they played, Peter. They could win the Champions League.

38:28I saw them at Crystal Palace and for 60 minutes, I'd say it was the best 60 minutes of football I'd seen from any team. When they were 3-3 in the end, they were 2-0 up. They scared their life out of Palace and that was when Palace is, you know, their back three or five or whatever way you want to use it. They ripped them apart. Just tore them apart. And I think Kruppi that day got a brace. A special congratulations as well to Paul McMahon who got in touch with me at the end of last week, I asked listeners if there was anyone out there who actually managed to listen to all five episodes that we did last week.

38:59Paul got in touch to say that he'd done exactly that. A Sunderland fan, he said, all bias aside, Reggie Labris isn't manager of the season. There is no justice in football. I think he'd be making the case for that as well. Thanks for getting in touch with us, Paul. Let's keep moving down the table. Speaking of pressure, is there any greater pressure than the pressure on Brighton and Hove Albion to win the Conference League already? The season had barely finished on the Times Sports Desk yesterday, listeners, when everyone was going going, well, Brighton will win the Conference League, won't they?

39:26I mean, it's true, isn't it? That is going to be the assumption. Well, given the financial disparities, yeah, absolutely you'd expect it. But a great triumph. And even more so Palace do, because obviously rivals, you know, they can't see Palace win it and then they have the chance to follow. They've got to follow. So another triumph there in eighth as well for Fabian Herzler, a manager, don't forget, there were boos around his performances as manager. Brentford in ninth. This is, again, got to be one of the great triumphs of the season with the backdrop of... So close to Europe. I mean, was Wattara a chance in stoppage time?

39:57If it scores that, then they're in Europe. Very, very tight goal difference as well. I think there's about three-goal swing in it with Brighton. The job Keith Andrews has done as well and some of those players. When you think of all the stars that left, all the staff that left, the manager left, they bring in the set-piece coach, all these idiots on this podcast going, oh, Brentford are going down. I think they also become one of my favourite teams for their reaction. The video montage they did when... Yeah, compiling everyone. Yeah, exactly. Playing everyone saying they were getting relegated.

40:26One of the great triumphs of the season. And now, drum roll please, Peter Rutzler. In 10th, Chelsea. Is it a triumph, a par or a disaster? Yeah, total disaster. One of the great disasters, isn't it, of modern football. Chelsea in 10th. A bit of a catastrophic season, really. I think when you take the whole picture, and we've talked a little bit, Obviously we're looking at Enzo Marescu going into City and how that unfolded. I think Chelsea do feel particularly hurt by that. That for them is sort of the moment it all sort of fell apart. You know, him walking away from the club basically. So ultimately, well, it's like go to someone else, go to a rival really.

41:07But the decision making after that, just exposing all of the flaws that we've talked about and I've talked about for a long time in terms of the mentality and characters within the dressing room. they need a lot of work in the summer How many big names do you expect to leave? I'm not asking you to pick a name but like and people will know of the big names you're kind of grouping from you don't have to pick a name but you have to lose one You'd expect at least one I mean Enzo Fernandes the way he sort of waves to the away and really gave the impression that he thinks he's going to go I mean they've got to get someone to take him and for that to happen but yeah some of their best players won't want to be waiting.

41:48We're four years into a project. They should be in the Champions League. Moises Caicedo won't be in the Champions League next season. Colt Palmer. Colt Palmer won't be in the Champions League next season. Colt Palmer not going to the World Cup as well. I mean, there's no greatest. But that's been a, actually, actually at Chelsea, that's been a theme, right? João Pedro was a big shock not going to the World Cup with Brazil. He's been Chelsea's best player this season by a margin. He's sort of been dragged down with everything. I know Esteval was injured, Levi Colwell's been injured. I mean, if Levi Colwell was fit, I think maybe it would have been a different season, actually, for Chelsea.

42:21It's that influential. But there's others. Andre Santos was in the Brazil picture. He's not made it. Trevor Chalab has had a good season, but he's not made it. When you have a season like this, it brings everyone down. And, you know, there's a price to pay for such form. And I think some of the players have felt that with the World Cup. Would you be, as a follow-up kind of phrasing question, excited or fearful if you were kind of Chelsea fan? Xabi Alonso, great appointment. Xavi Alonso changes the picture. You're going to be excited, not just because the fact that they've appointed him, the fact that he wants to come into this project, wants to oversee it.

42:51And no Europe. But there's no, yeah, there's this argument that it's, you know, it's good for Alonso. In a coaching perspective, you have more time. Not for a club of Chelsea's stature. Not for a club of Chelsea's stature. A lot more work. Not for a project where you have normally quite big squads that need players to play. Yeah, yeah. They've got that double squad, haven't they, Tony? A lot more work for him, with no European football as well, that he gets more time with the players. The pre-season's big. Can you talk about those big players that aren't going to World Cup? They'll be there. I mean, they'll come to World Cup last year and it looked so optimistic.

43:21It's crazy. The whole idea, and this is what I come back to when I've said this about Chelsea numerous times, their idea was flawed. The idea of potential, potential, potential, ignoring experience, I just thought was a flawed idea. Sometimes you have to bring in players that you utilise to bring other players to a higher level. Chelsea ignored that. Yeah, absolutely. Fulham in 11th, the definition of a par season. Oh, that's par. Slight disappointment actually. Yeah, I was going to say that. They weren't in that picture for Europe in the end. A mini disaster. Well, let's see what happens in my first one.

43:55Well, it can't be. Is there one in between disasters? No, no, that's actually quite right, yeah. Go on Gary. I would say it's not the first time they've kind of got to that point where you think, oh, they're going to get over the line and they don't. So Fulham fans are going to think it's a disaster, but everyone else is going to think par. I would agree. I said there will be Fulham fans who probably would say, is it time for, is that right, Pete, in saying that? There'll be some Fulham fans who would say, maybe it's time for Margot to go. Yeah, I don't think it's the way he'd want to go, considering he's done a fantastic job.

44:19He's done a brilliant job. But it's, you know, there's been that sense every season. Gary's right. You know, what might have been, we could have reached a cup semi-final, final. We could have been in the European conversation. You know, they dropped points at Wolves. You know, if they won at Wolves, they would have been in the conversation on the final day. Yeah. I miss the walk from Putney Bridge to the stadium. It's my favourite walk. I mean, if Marco Silva goes, it's a massive thing. Then it will be. He really has built that club back up again. Absolutely. A definite disaster for Newcastle finishing 12th this season.

44:51Martin Hardy will have the latest for you on Eddie Howe's future in the coming weeks. Everton in 13th. Is that par or a little... I think Moise would be disappointed. Yeah. I think Moise would have wanted a bit more... A disappointing par. Yeah. We're starting to add caveats in, everyone. I knew it would come. Leeds United, another great triumph of the season. 14th, one of the other sides promoted. Daniel Farker doing a brilliant job as well with that cup run. Crystal Palace, it brings us on to the Conference League final. That probably hinges on that, doesn't it? 15th this season. Another remarkable tale.

45:22You've got Oliver Glasner, the guy who was the hero last season, nearly leaves basically a good couple of times. Does press conferences where you think, this guy's literally about to walk out, isn't he, Gary? It's astonishing. A amount of times we spoke on the phone from press conferences or with some of your colleagues as well. Luz to Macclesfield in the FA Cup. Luz Mark Gaze, one of their big players. But they do have this chance now on Wednesday night. Maybe not as easy as everyone's suggesting against Real Vallecano, though. No, Antonio Reola's assistant, Igor Perez, is in charge. I think he'll leave this summer, actually.

45:53Villarreal, maybe, for him. But, yeah, par? Par? Par. Par. Par that becomes a triumph if they win the conference league. I would say it's a triumph. It's hard. He hasn't got a massive squad and he's trying to balance up all these games. I think it's been quite difficult. And he's also, you know, we had Mateta in January trying to get out. He's had lots of, he's had injuries. He had, he's dealing with a club who likes to sign players late in the window. I think I'd say, and obviously then the massive explosion of what he created, I think probably overall be a triumph. And they should win. And credit, credit Steve Parrish and him for being on the pitch yesterday.

46:32and the kind words they said to each other, really. They found a way to work in the end. We hope it'll be... They lost a few, aren't they? Gaye, and then you could go Elisay before that. They lost a lot of good players. I think it's a triumph. Yeah, especially if they can get over the line on Wednesday night. We'll have the reaction to that on Thursday's show. I think we're getting disasters for Wolves, Burnley and West Ham and Tottenham, of course. And then the ultimate debate, 16th place for Nottingham Forest. Four managers, but not relegated. That's a triumph in my book. Just par for Forest.

47:02isn't it? Yes. The ultimate bar. Maranakis making all those changes. An interesting summer ahead for Nottingham Forest. Can they keep hold of some of those big name players including Morgan Gibbs-White? Let's finish then with our end of season awards. This is inspired by Tony Cascarino's excellent piece that you can read in the Times pages tomorrow. And if you're a subscriber, make sure you get the football newsletter because you'll get it as well. Let's start with our player of the season. Tony, you can kick us off. Declan Rice. Declan Rice. Declan Rice. I felt he played different positions when called upon.

47:32He led like a captain, even though he's not the captain of Arsenal. I thought he stood out for me. And look, Arsenal could have had two or three contenders. Gabriel could have been there. Raya. But I thought Rice was just, when it was called upon or needed, his performances excelled. And Arteta asked him to do a number of different things for the team. Yeah. Arteta spoke about him, didn't he, Gary, in the press conference recently, either before or after this game. Forgive me, I forget. There's been too many words floating about in my inbox in the last couple of days. but a huge figure for this Arsenal team.

48:04And I think as well, that moment after the City game, it's not done. Arsenal fans were serenading him with a chant. I was like, all right, yesterday, he said it's not done. He said it's not done. And also, when they drew away at Wolves and sort of, you know, him leading the sort of, him and Norgaard and Eze leading it in the dressing room about the debrief after. I mean, I would disagree with Tony. Go on, who's your player of the season? Right. Yeah. So I just think, I think he's been brilliant. Yeah, I do. I think he's saved points. I think he's been the difference, really. There's been so many saves that he's made.

48:35Can't vote for a keeper. That's the thing. When you look at the Player of the Year awards, there's only been two keepers that have got it. You think this is bonkers. You know, and you think it's a striker's union. Can't vote for a keeper. Pete, you're going to pick Gabriel, Pete? I did in the piece we did a month or two ago for the times that we'd pick Gabriel because I think he symbolises everything that's so strong about Arsenal. Take the points on Raya and take the points especially on Deca and Rice. It's influenced, you know, this season's been about set pieces, which is why I focus on him.

49:08But it's still torn over Bruno Fernandes because of the impact he's had over the course of the season. I think I'd go Bruno Fernandes. It was just because of how difficult it was at the start of the campaign. And I get the Arsenal fan rage about the fact that he's not an Arsenal player. You could pick so many from their team. I just love watching Bruno Fernandes drag Manchester United through so many scenarios. Even yesterday, he won the game for them. It's like, I've got this thing and you're all going to play for me. We could be on the beach and they were fantastic. There was a moment in the Liverpool game at home where they won 3-2 and they'd been great in the first half.

49:38Dreadful goals conceded in the second half. And I think the ball down the line, he makes a turn and whips a cross in and Cescou scores and he was just celebrating on his own. I was like, you have been too good for this team for so long and maybe now we're going to get back in the Champions League. Let's move on to our goal of the season. Tony, you can kick us off again. Shaboos Light. The free kick. Free kick against Man City. Man City. The reason, one of the reasons was, is because he's done this before, and he's not only done this before in the Premier League, he's done it before for country and his previous club.

50:08And I feel, when I see a goalkeeper, and as big as Donnarumma is, and it's in the back of the net and he's not even moved. The standstill is always quite striking, isn't it? So, Solanke's backheel was a great goal. I thought it was one of the best out there. I thought the lad at Fulham, Harrison, when he scored against Liverpool, he stuck it in the top corner. And he's one of them. It's a shoot, isn't it? Because he never shoots. Yeah, Harrison Reid. Yeah, that one. I thought that was a... Harry Wilson. Yeah, I was going to say Harry Wilson. Again, that's another great goal. Spotting that when the goalkeeper comes out.

50:42Yeah. Harry Wilson against Crystal Palace was what I was thinking of. The lovely interchange with Awobi and then he sort of just caresses it into the far corner. That was my goal. I mean, the fact for me, Tom, the big thing was Donnarumma has gone past him before he's even moved. They're all great shouts, but you're all wrong. Because you're all forgetting Emi Buendia's goal against Tottenham earlier in the season. Matty Cash pinged ball on the half volley. Luca Dina taking it down out of the air like a ballerina, flicking it to Buendia to finish the goal. I could watch that goal over and over and over again.

51:15It is absolutely beautiful. match of the season. Tony, again. 4-4, Man United, Bournemouth. And again, because at 4-4, either team could have won it. They had great chances. Yeah. And it was one of them. I remember, as I'm sitting there, I was at home watching it and I'm watching it thinking, I haven't got a clue. Like, Mrs. Who do you think? I ain't got a clue. I don't know who's going to win. They're going toe-to-toe and it was literally PSG versus Bayern with Manchester United versus Bournemouth in that attack, attack from both teams. And I thought it was a standout game. Blue crackers. Gary?

51:48I might go for Aston Villa 2-1 against Arsenal. I thought it was just a very, very good game. And also, from Villa's perspective, it just showed they could actually deal with the bigotry. The reactions at the end as well, very theatrical. A lot of Arsenal players falling to the floor. It looked a bit like... It was the last second goal. Emi Burendi, what's his name? Top of the goal. And it just felt everything in that game. Pete? a City game and I think City-Arsenal probably because of the significance of it but in defeat which was so unusual the one other game I was at was Fulham City the 5-4 where Fulham just mounted that comeback but it just exposed the flaws that were in the City team that ultimately probably stopped them getting over the line they still won that game City-Everton has got to be up there for me I think at the end of the season as well huge significance and as well Wolves 2 Arsenal 2 I was editing that night on the Times Sports Desk.

52:44And I was like, this is the most crackers season I have ever worked in for 10 years that I've worked at the Times. Nothing summed it up better. Signing of the season next, Tony. It's gone for a striker. You're stunned to hear. Again, this one was a tricky one. I have all the categories you start looking at. And signing of the season is always a difficult one because when he signed, I'd watched a podcast about him and it was Calvert-Lewin. I'd watched his podcast and he talked all about the issues that he felt he had to learn from about his injury time had plagued Everton. And I just thought he's done everything he can.

53:23The way he was talking, how he'd done all these exercises to eradicate certain types of injuries. And I could think of him, yeah, talk is cheap, money buys resources, what you're going to be like. And I think he's done brilliant for them. And his goals were worth 25 points. If you take on every goal he scored in games that obviously got a draw or a win, added 25 points onto Leeds United and felt like I think it's his second best Premier League season because he had a bigger one at Everton at one particular time but I just thought he had an extraordinary year considering he was a free transfer that was the big thing definitely a great shout Gary, Pete signings I'd probably agree with that Shaka probably just one of those one I did think about a lot some of the big name signings as well I think right Cherky as well slightly gone wrong When you were a big guy, Ryan at Bournemouth.

54:12Ryan at Bournemouth. He's probably going to be a star next year. That's groupie count. I mean, they agreed in January and joined in the summer. I think as well. He's some talent. Sana Lemons at Manchester United. Yeah. Well, yes. You think of the position they were in with goalkeepers. No, goalkeepers. Sorry, Tom. And just suddenly, all sorted. Sorry, Tony. I met you goalkeepers. No more goalkeepers. And let's finish with our nominations for manager of the season. And Tony, come for the obvious one. I think you've got two. Yeah, I just... Sometimes you look... I mean, Handoli, Iriola done brilliant.

54:39and Unai Emery likewise, De Brizza, Rezzi De Brizza at Sunderland. But I just went with Arteta because I kept thinking, I spoke about this on the podcast last week, I kept thinking of when I went to the game with Arsenal at Sheffield United where they lost 1-0 under the final games of Unai Emery. And I remember coming away thinking, after Arteta got the job, thinking he's got no chance, this Arsenal present squad. So it's been a gradual process. I mean, that night Pepe was playing. You had Aubameyang. Saka had started to play, the young lad. Guendouzi in midfield, Longshide Saka. Leno was in goal.

55:18I remember thinking... It's been a long journey for him, hasn't it? Well, it's been a long journey, but I thought to this point of this season to really lead that football club and get it over the line where they've been nearly three times, I just think he's done an amazing job. Gary? Keith Andrews, yeah. Really? I think he's done a really good job. Again... In terms of just going back to Arteta, though, there is that sense as well that I felt, again, as a neutral and being in this industry of watching him over the last few days and seeing just a slight relief and a slight tension going. It was a remarkable re-hits to discussing with you from that.

55:50In fact, you cried. Yeah. I think your first words to me yesterday was, you cried? Yeah. It's like, you know, you wouldn't expect Mikel to cry, this kind of softer side you don't really see. And talking about not watching, you know, we were all there on Tuesday night looking at the celebration pictures from London Colney, and I was in the office going to the picture editor, where's Arteta? Why is he not there? why have you not got a picture of Arteta? Turned out he was in his back garden, unable to watch the game. This guy was so wound up, he couldn't even watch it. So, yeah, I mean, I've been delighted to see it, but Keith Andrews, a great shout.

56:16Pete? Yeah, LeBrie, probably, just because it's just unbelievable. Are they finished? You're trying to please that listener. Yeah, I am. You can drop me an email later. But no, I've got two shouts of Europe next year. You can keep the options open, Gary. You have to do the home games as well, though, Pete. Ah, yeah, that's a slight problem, I think. I think the answer is Arteta, just because of the cultural overhaul he's overseen. It's such a significant one. And then to go through that process and then get into a period where you're stuck being second and how hard that then is to just break that and win.

56:51You can really get bogged down with that sense. And there's a lot we don't know. We all assume certain things we've listened to, been at press conferences, watched the team. But behind the scenes, there'll be stuff we have no idea about and we'll learn along the way about this season. Yeah, absolutely. A little word for Daniel Farker and Unai Emery, I think, as well. Brilliant seasons for them as well. We'll have to leave it there. Just a few things before we go. There are still a couple of tickets left to our Game Podcast live event. You've got me, Tony Cascarino, Martin Samuel, Johnny Northcroft and Hamza Khalid Lunat previewing the World Cup.

57:22That is Tuesday night, so grab those last tickets while you can. The good news is, is in the News UK building, which has air conditioning. So if that doesn't sell it for you, never mind the World Cup chat, then nothing will. Pete we wish you well with your wedding that's coming up this weekend huge congratulations congratulations Pete you do have a word of warning of course though from the first half of the show don't put on any weight because Tony Cascarino he'll be on you as soon as that does happen don't get in the comfort zone don't get in the comfort zone remarkable scenes getting wedding advice from Tony Cascarino never thought the day would come but we will leave it there Tony Cascarino and Peter Rutz and Gary Jacob thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening the Premier League season might be done but we're not finished yet.

58:03Me and Gregor will be back with a review of the Football League playoffs and we'll be back with the regular show on Thursday. We'll see you then.

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