Bonkers Bodo and Lammens shines for Man United

0:04Bode Glimt: Hello and welcome to The Game, a football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. Real Madrid and Vinicius triumph over Benfica. Holders PSG squeeze past Monaco while Newcastle cruise through and we are all bonkers for Bode Glimt. It was a thrilling conclusion to the Champions League playoff, but who are the best teams that we've seen so far? On today's show, we'll also discuss Manchester United's success on the pitch and their financial results off it. ask our goal mouth scrambles spoiling the spectacle and we'll quiz our two favorite former footballers on how they think they would cope in the modern game speaking of i'm tom clark and joining me today we have those two former favorite footballers with us the former island millwall and marseille striker turned columnist tony cascarino and the former scotland under 21 nottingham forest and chess field defender turned journalist gregor robertson is with us all right lads all right all right big sell on this one the proper we're leaning in we've got no other bloody journalists and reporters on clouding it with their big opinions waffling on for ages smart ideas yeah big ideas big ethereal thinking philosophizing shut up let's just let's just chat to the former pros and let's get stuck into the champions league then i mean i was editing both these days both these nights i thought there's some fascinating games let's talk about real madrid's win against benfica vinicius of course making headlines this time for all the right reasons with a wonderful goal.

1:25Bode Glimt: Real Madrid just about deserving to win this game, I think, Gregor. But this is not the Real Madrid that I think neutrals and maybe English fans are used to watching, as I'm sure probably plenty of people tuned in on this one.

1:36Senne Lammens: No, it was a really, really odd game to watch. I mean, first of all, how poorly Real Madrid started the game and then just thinking of how many errors there were throughout it. It was really odd. I mean, unless Vinicius got on the ball and found himself in a little pocket of space or drifted in centrally and they found them they had very very little threat at all and there was also some players popping up all over the place it doesn't seem to be much direction or if there is it's not that clear in the Real Madrid team at the moment

2:08Bode Glimt: they were so open

2:09Senne Lammens: yeah look you've got to obviously say they're missing Mbappe Bellingham Hoisin at the back Rodrigo suspended that improves the team but not to the extent that you expect of Real Madrid. So yeah, you expect them to be better when the last 16 comes around, but I'm not sure how much better. So, you know, how many years have we said Real Madrid, like they find a way to win. They're just like a winning machine in this competition. You just, it would be a minor miracle if they won it this year.

2:41Bode Glimt: So really, because I actually found myself watching that game and initially was thinking, gosh, Benfica have got so much space. They scored that early goal. They immediately hit back and I still have that feeling watching Real Madrid, even with the injuries, even with the slightly chaotic tactics. I'm still looking at them thinking, even if Arsenal went there, they'd still give them a game. They'd still give them a game. Absolutely.

3:03Senne Lammens: They'd give them a game, but I don't think they'd come off, come out as winners over two legs. I mean, even just looking at the back, Rudiger's not what he was. The two fullbacks are really good footballers and Trent and Carreras, but defensively, a little bit. going suspect and you know prone to go and wander in like for the Benfica goal it was bizarre that Garenas was right up the pitch they found so much space and then when the cross came in Trent sort of like looked like he was trying to step out to cut out a cutback that was never coming there was no one there so yeah you'd say Asensi would come out for Hoisin probably but I think defensively look suspect clearly if Mbappe's in the team and Vinicius is in the team they've always got a chance but I'm Bellingham behind them Yeah, but he's maybe a bit later, I think.

3:52Senne Lammens: He could be towards April. So, yeah, I don't think Real Madrid will win this year.

3:57Bode Glimt: I totally agree. Couldn't see Real Madrid. I think if you look at their midfield for a moment, it was Casemiro, Modric, Tony Cruz. This midfield is quite sure, man, he's come in. He's done okay when I've watched him play, but they feel like they're lost with the amount of quality players they've lost. Because you then go their forward line of Benzema and Bowe and Ronaldo. and okay, that's a while back. But they really haven't... Vinicius Junior's had a really strange season because Xavi Alonso had obviously been a big fallout with him and he didn't look like he was going to get a goal. He went on a long drought.

4:30Bode Glimt: The moment he walks out of the club, Vinicius Junior's back on fire again. So there's obviously a lot gone on with Vinicius Junior at the football club and there was talk of him leaving. There was a Saudi offer as well. Yeah, but I look at Real Madrid and I just think they're not even close. They're a shadow of the team that used to be Real Madrid. And there are good players, and there are players that can come back into this team. But I still don't see a team. I was going to say, it sounds like we're stumbling on a theme about... Individuals are way more. Yeah, individuals, amazing individuals, and that whole kind of Galactico trope that was obviously back in 20 years ago or so.

5:06Bode Glimt: These days, what you're saying with modern football may be teams these days, and you talk about Arsenal and things, they don't have the individuals that Real Madrid have, but it's more effective. and that these days you can't get away with just lobbing a load of superstars on the pitch can't carry no one can't just lob a load of superstars on the pitch I'm not really sure

5:22Senne Lammens: Real Madrid have the superstars that they've had in days combined Mbappe's certainly one of course they do Mbappe and Vinicius and Bellingham sort of elevated himself to that level but I still not like Courtois Courtois is probably

5:34Bode Glimt: one of the best keepers in the world or maybe fading slightly

5:37Senne Lammens: yeah it's not the Galacticos you know look the game the game ultimately it was an odd game very odd game as I say it felt like really poor standard for the stats of the two teams but ending on a good note I mean Punish is getting you know getting the goal lovely finish

5:53Bode Glimt: lovely finish just that side foot like passing to the bottom corner he's got some great goals

5:57Senne Lammens: lately very Thierry Henry-esque

5:59Bode Glimt: he's got some really good goals

6:01Senne Lammens: the dance goes on he messaged on Instagram afterwards so that was good to see like after all the kind of how toxic this tie has been and you know Jose Mourinho was completely absent like missing in he was clearly obviously suspended but there was no sight of him whatsoever throughout. So very odd tie altogether, but a good ending.

6:18Bode Glimt: Yeah, it was delightful to put Vinicius on the back page of the Times this morning as well with just a nice big celebration all about the football. Wonderful to see. There's another game. Greg is going to get upset with you now, Tony, because I'm going to claim that I was able to watch two games at the same time, which he and Alison claim is impossible. But I did have an eye on PSG Monaco, which I think you were watching last night talking about these strong teams, these big behemoths and these superstars. I've got to say, I've watched PSG a couple of times and they looked like, well, you tell me, Are they either in first gear still and they're waiting or they're not quite the same team that they were last season?

6:50Bode Glimt: Well, let's just go a little bit of numbers on this, Tom, because if you look in the Ligue 1, the highest goal scorers, the highest goal scorer is seventh, is Dembele and Barcola. They're two. They've got eight goals this season, league goals. Now, you can't believe they're top of the league, top goal scorers in the French League. They've got their two centre forwards or two forwards of eight goals. Who would you think is number one? league goal scorer in France. Well, I know because I've got it up here, but yeah, so I'm cheating. Okay, we'll see you now. Mason Greenwood. Yeah, he's top goal scorer.

7:20Bode Glimt: And I look at this PSG team and there's still lots of things. You'll see glimpses, but last night, Monaco had some chances. It was a harsh sending off. They had chances to... Do you think just very quickly, harsh or the most stupid sending off you've ever seen in your life? I agree with you. I don't want to see those yellow cards given. When he's flown into that second one on Hakimi, you're thinking, mate you've just got booked stay on your feet

7:46Senne Lammens: and they'd had a man sent off on the first leg too like the manager afterwards what might have been in this game what about the chances do you see the chance

7:54Bode Glimt: at the end doesn't head it he doesn't head it well I say yeah the header it's one of them he's literally in front of goal and he's got his goal at the mercy and you're thinking if you just make a connection it's going it's going in and he just gets the slightest flick flick and it's literally on the last minute of the game isn't it yeah it was also mad that finish to the game as well you had sebastian uh poggognoli who's the manager who's going mental the whole time and i think he was trying to get a substitute on and the referee ends up booking the sub before he comes on the pitch then books the manager then they throw him on for this and they nearly score nearly score but i mean coming back to psg then do you think then it's they're a little bit off it they've dropped their levels a little bit because they've still got superstars it's like the Real Madrid thing.

8:37Bode Glimt: They've still got absolute superstars. Well, I would make the different argument to one of Real Madrid. I think this team has got gears in them to lift it. Cavrasquillo is a player that he's just a wonderful... Dwayne. He can do... Oh, he can Dwayne what he wants. I'm sorry about that pun, but he has got so much ability. But he looks like he's walking half the time when he's running. There was a moment where he kind of flip-flapped past two players and went down a little bit softer a penalty. You think, just keep going, mate. Keep running. this would be an amazing goal. So you think they're like lurking?

9:09Bode Glimt: You think they're just waiting? I feel that PSG could just get that switch on, which I don't see at Real Madrid. And this is the PSG that once Real Madrid used to have that switch. You know, I remember being at the bridge when Benzemi got an at-trick and they'd gone for all these ties of being literally out of the tournament or out of the Champions League and they found a way. I think PSG could be that sort of team.

9:31Senne Lammens: It's been a wild campaign for them so far. Just looking at the scores, trashed Atlanta 4-0 beat Barcelona in Barcelona won 7-2 against Bayer Leverkusen lost to Bayern Munich 5-3 against Spurs and then they had that run where they kind of just looked like they might go out they drew against Athletic lost to Sporting drew with Newcastle and then they've limped over against another Ligue 1 team who had a man set off in both legs And in that Newcastle game as well, though,

10:05Bode Glimt: that night was that one where they were going through, they were going through, and then all of a sudden they were dropped down and it was like, oh, Christ, right, fine. And it's that thing about gears, isn't it? That's what I think maybe they're just completely in first gear. They definitely have the gears,

10:15Senne Lammens: that's whether they can find them or not. They're just playing there.

10:17Bode Glimt: But does, all right then, as a team and as players, is it hard, can you get stuck sometimes if you're kind of like, no, don't worry, don't worry, and you've missed your chance to up the gears, or you don't think that's a concern of these players? These are a high caliber of player, Tom, And I mean, if you take Moussa Dembele, who last season at one time got in 10 games, got 18 goals in 10 games. And he was on fire and he was chasing everything. He was like that runner. He was missing last night as well. And he's had a bit of an in and out season. He's been sub a few times because of injuries. But if he comes alive, if suddenly, because I always look at Moussa Dembele as a streaky player.

11:00Bode Glimt: he could come in and just do unbelievable things and he could go missing a bit but he's a real talent and his pace is devastating so of the two teams if like when English teams are thinking you know Arsenal and maybe Manchester City are thinking about these teams you'd think still want to be don't want anywhere PSG and you know Real Madrid don't worry about it I don't think they'd be afraid do you Gregor I don't think they're a team that play with fear I think they I think out of the two

11:25Senne Lammens: you would take Real Madrid over PSG because of the potential and you've got to see like we're reading out those scores there all the stuff we've spoken about throughout the whole campaign about how odd uh like in a context of a lot of these games are because sometimes it feels like there's nothing on them you know that'll be true for the players as well um and you've also we've got to remember what they did last season they did the same thing they kind of limped through and then they really kicked into gear and you know won it in style who are the best teams we've seen

11:54Bode Glimt: then generally if the idea is that maybe we've not seen the best of some of the best teams Who are the best teams we've seen? I mean, is it Arsenal? Arsenal have been incredibly solid in the Champions League. You know, their goals against Colm, tell you that. They've just really not been any danger to me in any game. I think Bayern Munich as well for me, though. When you've got Harry Kane playing like he's playing with Alise alongside him and all the other kind of quite experienced team as well. And I think they're maybe a team that have got another gear to go to and another few gears maybe. I think we saw them in that Arsenal game where everyone...

12:25Bode Glimt: Well, DS has been brilliant for them. Yeah, everyone had built them. Arsenal Bayern Munich is like this is when we'll find out who the winners are and even watching that you were like Bayern are just like alright lads don't worry about it this would be a different tie if it was a knockout tie Gregor any team that particularly impressed you and it could bring in some of the smaller ones as well if you want

12:42Senne Lammens: Liverpool have done quite well I mean that sounds bizarre to say but they've finished third and they've been a different team in Europe just a different feel to the games and you know this has been mooted hasn't it this season Slott's spoken a lot about

12:57Bode Glimt: I just don't want to mention it at the moment you're quietly confident though is that what you mean? yeah I let Gregor talk on this because it's true that they have been in from league form to Champions League form they feel like they've been in a different outfit

13:09Senne Lammens: yeah a lot of that's to do with the approach of the opposition you know Slott's spoken many times at length about the way teams are playing very direct to them although Paul Joyce wrote a piece in the Times this week saying that that's dropped off a little bit recently the number of long balls they're facing has declined in the second half of the season but Liverpool were struggling with that and they've shored up a bit defensively Liverpool and despite I was at the Forest game the weekend like they were really poor yeah but they got a clean sheet and you just feel that the way that they kind of feel in the flow of the games in European football more likely the opposition whoever they're going to face are going to come out and try and play against them and that is probably

13:53Bode Glimt: the young lad Rio will now come in a lot more especially in Europe because it's out there now

14:01Senne Lammens: isn't it he can come on and change a game yeah Martin Samuel wrote a bit about that in his column this week about how many games when he's on the pitch they've scored in yeah like almost every time he comes on kind of within the last 15 minutes or something to make something happen cliche in Newcastle

14:18Bode Glimt: where people often score

14:20Senne Lammens: so yeah I mean whether it's Ngomua or someone else the question is how long they stick with Salah. That's the bigger question for me. And Ingramo is clearly pushing for a start, but Salah is the bigger issue.

14:33Bode Glimt: Newcastle through as well, making it six teams heading into the round of 16. How likely do we think it is that we'll get an English team in the final then? We're talking about mentioning Liverpool looking quite good. Arsenal very strong. I mean, Manchester City with Pep Guardiola and Erling Haaland. There's got to be a pretty good chance of an English team making a final, do we think?

14:50Senne Lammens: Absolutely. Just when you look at the strength, I mean, even Barcelona are not looking in the same sort of shape as they have in past seasons and like Italian football has just completely collapsed Atlanta going through but everyone else out stands to reason yeah you've got you've got sporting into the into the next stage and you would feel that probably an English team would get past them so yeah they're certainly looking good for English teams

15:19Bode Glimt: Bodo Glimp though well let's talk about Bodo Glimp one of the stories of the Champions League probably the story of the Champions League this season. They've actually only played three competitive matches in 2026 because their league season ended in November because it's so bloody cold in Norway. The three teams they've played, Man City, Atletico Madrid and Inter Milan. I'd like that window break. A town of just 54 ,000 people. It's absolutely unbelievable, isn't it? I mean, and the thing is as well, you watch the games, you watch some of the extended highlights, they're passing Inter Milan off the pitch in the San Siro.

15:53Bode Glimt: absolutely passing them all over the place it was amazing the keeper made a good few saves and they looked like and there was a couple of bad misses Kanje didn't he got a little bit caught but as the game wore on I was just like cheering them on because they were just like

16:07Senne Lammens: even into his goal it was like you know they needed goal line technology to make sure they crossed the line it was like yeah it's an extraordinary story and they beat others just to make it to the qualifier and they out of their fixtures they were probably the hardest that anyone had they played Atletico, Dortmund Juventus, Monaco, Galatasaray Spurs and Slavia Prague at the end and their rise as well, they won the Norwegian League for the first time in 2020, reached the Conference League quarter finals in 21-22 Europa League semi-finals last season this is their debut season in the Champions League proper and like, as you say, they're in their off season, they played their last competitive game domestically at the end of November they don't play another one until March like it's it's it's extraordinary wage bills 50 million like that's i don't know i don't know if i'm right but that's not far off like erling haaland surely yeah maybe two players from man city would cover that and now they could be playing them or sporting in the in the last 16 so it's brilliant and there's also i saw someone mention this and it's a really good point like the the head coach uh nutson has like been linked with jobs in england and you know clearly i think this will ramp up his profile even more.

17:22Senne Lammens: But the way they flip between dominating games domestically, playing with like 60 % position, and then having to go into Europe against relative giants and play with like 30, 35 % of the ball, but do both things really effectively, that's the sign of a really good coach.

17:37Bode Glimt: Ultimately, both things, they are the both things can be true team. No wonder you're cheering them on. Just for a bit of context, listeners, as well, you say 50 million for their wage bill, you say roughly, so we're going to talk about Manchester United slightly later on, their latest financial results revealing that their wage bill was 313 million so just a little comparison there with one of the big teams casemiro's 20 million a year yeah so yeah a couple of players would cover their their wage bill yeah absolutely absolutely fantastic from bodo glint or bodo mint as we should maybe say from uh now on let's just quickly talk about newcastle uh obviously a very comfortable victory for them against carabag in this tie tony i wanted to ask about Nick Voltemada because he was signed in the summer, a summer of huge turmoil for Newcastle when they lost their star striker.

18:19Bode Glimt: There were lots of comments from Eddie Howe at the time. It was put to him that this guy, from what we've seen, looks a bit like a kind of number 10. And Eddie Howe's like, no, no, no, he's a striker. He's definitely a striker. Martin Hardy wrote a piece about this on The Times this week. And now we find him drifting back into a midfield three and you go, ah, Eddie, you were conning us all along. It's an interesting one, isn't it, with him? Because he had this period where he then didn't score any goals and everyone's going, he's not scoring enough goals. He's cost a lot of money. Maybe he wasn't meant to all along.

18:47Bode Glimt: What do you make of it? Well, I'd done a piece earlier in the season, didn't I? And I'd seen him and I've seen him play for the German under-21s and watched him a good few times. And I never saw a predator type goal scorer or a centre forward that's as tall as him that doesn't really get on the end of crosses in the old, you know. Scores that great header at Sunderland though, but at the wrong end. Yeah, but he generally isn't going to get up at the far post. He's got this great leap and he hangs and heads it back. He's not playing that tight of a forward role. And when I watch him, I just think he doesn't look for predator goals.

19:22Bode Glimt: I got criticized this way when I was a player by the famous Don Howe. He talked me through scenarios and he went, you're not getting into positions where it's going to drop and you're there. Why was that? Was that because you were trying to make the previous header for someone else? Yeah, I wouldn't, I wasn't. You were doing the knockdown for the other person. Yeah, I was knocking down. But even he would say a five-yard movement will get you a goal. And it might only get you five in the season. But it's five more than you're going to get. Take you from 15 to 20. There was an incident in the game recently.

19:54Bode Glimt: It was a St. James' park. The ball come right across the face of the goal. And he's standing on the penalty spot. And there's players around him. He's not made an effort to get into an area, whether it comes or not, but just to be there. But that might mean, you know, you should think about other players. in this Newcastle team though like Joe Linton for example was signed and lots of people thought he was a forward and now he's an absolute barnstorming but he's a way more physical presence to play that midfield role than he could be after a while I mean if we give him time what is Voldemort 22, 23?

20:21Bode Glimt: I'm not sure I mean he's still a very young man so you'd like to think he'd improve him he's upper body strength because he's he's very lean isn't he?

20:30Senne Lammens: Yeah 24 just turned 24 he never screamed like an ideal fit as a centre forward for Newcastle when you think about who he replaced in Isak Newcastle are all direct like dynamic transition football players and it's not you know now he's playing Anthony Gordon or it was Willis Sula in this game the RIP are quick guys who can get on the end of things so if you're going to play Voltemada as the nine it meant you'd have to get more of those sort of out to in runs from the wide players like some people going past him and they've never been able to crack that this season that's why he looked isolated far too often so you can see why he was trying to get him or someone who you spent a lot of money on and who he feels is also possibly more effective doing the link up play deeper in the pitch but it wasn't intentional there's no way I know Vissa was everyone tries to make the argument that Vissa was the guy who was signed to replace Izak as a kind of in terms of a similar profile but you don't spend that kind of money on a guy who's going to maybe be a number 10 maybe be an attacking number 8 he was saying to be a centre forward it's not a word so far they're looking for solutions

21:40Bode Glimt: yeah well let's finish with a chat a bit of catharsis as ever it's time for Gregor Robertson's therapy session around VAR Tony Cascarino talking about hey Dan Byrne no no I'm talking about another player who plays Dan Byrne's handballing this was a joke as well

21:52Senne Lammens: you're not having that one come on no he's sliding and his hand's by his side the thing is as well

21:57Bode Glimt: you can watch the clip as well you can tell that he's even thinking oh crap I better get my hand in here when you do the slow-mo that one I'm sorry I like it listen there's a lot of it that's nonsense but that one I can at least see. The one I'm going to ask you about is a former Newcastle player who now still plays in black and white. Lloyd Kelly, the Juventus defender, shown a red card, a red card that was upgraded from a yellow card, which would have meant he was sent off anyway. But a remarkable scene, this one. Jumps for a header. Listeners, if you've not seen it, he jumps for a header. He's looking at the ball, and as he comes back down, his studs catch the opponent as he's trying to land back on the floor, and the referee is sent over to the screen and upgrades a second yellow card to a straight red card.

22:35Bode Glimt: cue Bedlam and Pandemonium on the side of the pitch Gregorubb

22:39Senne Lammens: and let's just make the point that the only reason he was being sent over to the screen could possibly have been to upgrade it to a red card when he'd already been sent off so someone in the bar booth has deemed it worthwhile to try and upgrade a yellow card to a red card for a player who'd already been sent off because as it stands this looks like it's about to change there's an iFab meeting coming up I think it's this weekend you can't intervene on yellow cards. So there was no point at which the referee was sent to the monitor to see whether he got it wrong. It was to see whether he'd been too lenient for someone who'd already been sent off.

23:19Bode Glimt: What world are we living in? What world are we living in? Well, Gregor, apart from that, I mean, if you leap in the air and you're coming down, unless he's got his leg really wide and like, I'm going to catch the opponent, there's no way on earth that you can avoid the scrape of a calf on the way down if they happen to be stood there exactly i i just couldn't see how the logic in it and i've seen people like

23:43Senne Lammens: make an argument in the aftermath of this that you know intent or recklessness or whatever doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be intentional essentially so like if you're making a tackle and you're going to win the ball and the force afterwards makes the contact or whatever you can just about see why those decisions are often given. This is jumping up and then landing on the floor. You don't have an alternative to land on the floor. You don't have an alternative, but to land on your feet unless you're being knocked off balance or whatever. So he's jumped up and he's trying to land on the floor and he studs caught the back of someone's Achilles.

24:19Bode Glimt: I've got a great answer to stop all this of not getting cards. You put parachutes on the back of players and there's their landing. You do the strings as you're going down. Is there not a weird, scary world in which players are going to start like waiting and like, Oh, if you're a defender, you jump for the ball and I'm just going to stand it and then wait and get the catch on the way down.

24:35Senne Lammens: It'd be brave because I looked sore. Absolutely. Harry Kane's been doing that for years. He often, you know, he waits for the contact, there's a look and then boom, he's over. So, but yeah, it's just another one where you're going into a weird pool hole. To me,

24:50Bode Glimt: I was always concerned about the laws in the game and if you get so over-regulated that you end up making the game incredibly soft. And so it's literally sanitized on every level about what is a foul? What is a penalty? You know, what is a sending off? And now I can't believe some of the stuff I'm watching. Yeah, really worrying signs, I would say. And also, you know, it spoils games because this was a cracking tie. It was absolutely bonkers. Juventus against Galatasaray. One of the great ties of this round of playoffs. We'll leave it there. If you've got views on how the Champions League is panning out and whether you think some English teams might make it to the final.

25:29Bode Glimt: Get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. I'm going to take a quick break and I've got two questions for you. Two. The first one, listeners, is actually just for you. If you're a big football obsessive, you like a quiz, this is the quiz question for you to ask your mates this weekend. We had this on the Times editing floor last night, often after matches. It's all very busy and then the Octa facts arrive and there's often a few belters in there. And Willis, my colleague, was like, right, I've got one. Everyone shut up. And this is it. Juventus defender Lloyd Kelly is the second Englishman to receive a red card in a UEFA Champions League knockout stage match for a non-English team.

26:03Bode Glimt: Who was the first? And I'm telling you, if any of you get this, please email in and I'll believe you. It is well-hard. It took me half an hour and about 20 clues to get there. Is he really famous? No. No. It's proper like journeyman stuff. Anyway, we'll see if we can get this one. This is an easier one from Bill Edgar's weekly quiz, which we always mention on Thursday's show, which is a little bit more accessible, I would say. Arsenal-Chelsea this weekend. So this is the theme of this question, the second one in this bumper edition of the game podcast. Who played for only 120 minutes in the 2016-17 season, 90 minutes of which were as captain during Arsenal's victory over Chelsea in the FA Cup final?

26:41Bode Glimt: Find out after the break.

26:56Bode Glimt: Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Tony Cascarino and Gregor Robertson with me. They were scratching their heads. This is actually Friday. We're doing the part two on Friday. It's been this long trying to work out the answers to the quiz question. Now, no one did get the first one. I'll just remind you listeners, Juventus defender Lloyd Kelly is the second Englishman to receive a red card in a UEFA Champions League knockout stage match for a non-English team. The first was Matt Derbyshire for Olympiacos against Bordeaux in 2009-10, round of 16.

27:27Bode Glimt: See, I told you it was hard. Gregor, you were like, I'm not getting this one. And then when I said Matt Derbyshire, you were like, ah, you bugger. Anyway, thankfully, listeners, they did get the other question, which is part of Bill Edgar's weekly quiz on the Times website, who played just 127 minutes in the 2016-17 season, 90 minutes of which were as captain for Arsenal's win over Chelsea in the FA Cup final. Tony Cascarino in with the answer, which was? Pierre Mertesecker. Pierre Mertesecker. You're now looming large like Pierre Mertesecker because we've got a new game for your listeners as well.

27:55Bode Glimt: If you follow us on YouTube, you can now watch us at Timesport. You can see who has the sinking chair. And you might have seen during that first half of the show, Tony slowly getting further and further closer to the ground. Thankfully, producer Neil stepped in at the break. And as well as a quiz, we've sorted out Tony Cascarino's chair. Let's talk about Manchester United's win against Everton and a couple of themes I wanted to bring out of that. Firstly, it's another good win for Michael Carrick, isn't it? I mean, a 1-0 win, lots of criticism around David Moyes and his style of play, but it's five wins and a draw for Michael Carrick so far in his Manchester United career.

28:26Bode Glimt: It's looking very, very good for him, isn't it? It's almost a procession towards the Champions League at this point.

28:31Senne Lammens: Well, they look a good thing at the moment. And they also look solid as well. They're just this back four.

28:38Bode Glimt: We always said they've not got the defence for it. They had a missing Martinez now.

28:42Senne Lammens: And they did have to put up with an absolute barrage.

28:45Bode Glimt: They did, which we'll come on to in a second. but just on you know it's a good and making the change subs the three signings combining counter attacking goal

28:53Senne Lammens: a 1-0 away win I like the fact that they're not you know they're not just trying to please by playing you know swashbuckling buccaneering football attack attack attack they're willing to knuckle down and do what it takes to get a win and get a result and I think after everything that's gone before I would say the fans are happy with that just now as well clearly there'll be more to develop and there have been games where they've been really impressive but this was just a gritty ground out dogged win and the goal was a thing of beauty like searing counter attack, we've said this on a number of occasions of all the kind of things that Manchester United seem to have reacquainted themselves with in terms of things that are associated with in their history like late goals counter attacking goals is another one and particularly when it involved the three players that they signed, the three attacking players that they signed in the summer.

29:50Senne Lammens: So, yeah, brilliant for Cesco, brilliant for those three players, brilliant for Manchester United and brilliant for the goalkeeper as well, who I'm sure we're going to come on to.

29:59Bode Glimt: Yeah, we'll come on to that in just a second. But Tony, I wanted to ask you just first on Benjamin Cesco, because we had this debate on Monday's show with Alison, Peter Rutzler and Gregor, talking about the forwards, because I had a look on Sunday when I was on the editing desk and, you know, the big summer signing, João Pedro at Chelsea, Joachares obviously scored at the weekend, Cesco starting to look good hasn't played as many games as those two and Eka TK but they've all kind of got a roughly same goals per game record they'll roughly cost you know in that 60 to 70 million bracket just on Benjamin Cesco he's not played as many games he scored some goals now off the bench as well some very good finishes this one included the one at West Ham still only 22 yeah do you think he's got potential I'm sorry every time I watch him he gets better in my mind as what he could potentially be for Manchester United.

30:43Bode Glimt: What do you think of him? Well, first of all, you have to take the age into consideration because he's 22 and he's joined a massive football club. And with that, there's huge pressure. Mbumo was always, to me, a bit of a guarantee with Cunha. But Michael Carrick at the moment is going, we're getting results this way. And there will be a time where he will start games because if he keeps doing what he's doing, Michael Carrick, as soon as he gets an opportunity, he's going to play him. because he's trying to build this player up as in knowing his age and thinking he's had a stuff... Because he didn't play well early on.

31:18Bode Glimt: You know, the night when they went out to Grimsby, a lot of people were looking at Sesco and going, what is this lad about? You know, he didn't lead the line particularly well against the Grimsby team. And that's not all on him. This is not making him a scapegoat. But taking him out of the firing line and then reintroducing him has worked because they've got results as well, Tom. That's been the difference because Michael Cowick's in a, he's in a bit of a luxury position where he can go, I don't really need him to start the moment. But if I do need to call him in, if I do need him, I'm going to play him.

31:49Bode Glimt: I'm going to put him on. And it's worked brilliantly for him. Do you think that's actually managing him quite well and actually formation wise and tactics wise, going with Bumo, with Cunha and maybe Ahmad and people behind him and then changing the dynamic slightly. It brings Brian and Bumo into a different role that later in the game, he can affect the game in a different way.

32:06Senne Lammens: Yeah, that's all true. But I think the most important thing is the way that Mbouma and Bruno Fernandes have linked up as that kind of pairing. Mbouma can still do the thing that Sesco does best, which is running behind. He's still got the pace to do it. And there was a stat close to, I think it was just after he started him up front, which was a surprise, you have to remember, to say that he'd made more runs in behind than any other player in the Premier League. But he also links really intelligently with Fernandes, sometimes dropping off and allowing somebody else to run in behind, sometimes little gives and goes you saw I actually saw I remember the game watching the game against Burnley when Fletcher was still in charge and I saw Sesko doing that the best he has he's still not as good as Mbumen he needs to develop that side of his game the link up play he can hold it up but quick interplay you know the kind of crafty intelligent stuff I think he needs to work on what he is and what he has it's just incredible athleticism like the sprint the goal was that he sprint yeah you know there was that that clip on social media.

33:08Bode Glimt: Tarkovsky just left him absolutely burned. Yeah, he was ringed,

33:11Senne Lammens: just like when the ball kind of changed, you know, when Man United won possession back, ringed them in the edge of his own box, and then he was like 15 yards ahead of Tarkovsky. Like a roadrunner. Off he went. So that, that's just a huge weapon. And I'm sure he can develop everything else, but he's also, you know, he's also shown that he's got an eye for goal. The goal against West Ham was an absolute beauty. And this was one where Pickford was coming out to close down the space and he had to be emphatic with it. You know, he had to know what he wanted to do and do it and execute it. And that was another clinical finish.

33:43Senne Lammens: See, that goal is a perfect example

33:45Bode Glimt: of a training ground exercise where you're, you know, you're playing a forward in and the forward nine times out of 10 will just slip it past the keeper instantly. But when you're out of confidence or you're just not... Or you're off the bench. Yeah, you're coming off the bench. You're just not on top of your game. You hit it too close to the keeper. The keeper makes it stay. Well, he's straight at him, yeah. But straight away, he's seen it. He's picked his spot. He's kept his head in a position to a low finish and buried it in the bottom corner. And that, for him, will be... What's happened to him in recent weeks will benefit him enormously because now there isn't the question mark of, have we paid£70 million for this lad?

34:20Bode Glimt: Is nowhere near good enough? People start going, I think there's a player. You can see the finish was emphatic and I just think it was doing the world good. Yes, some forward players signed in the summer performing for Manchester United, but as well, let's talk about the goalkeeper signed in the summer. He's got to be one of the most underrated signings of the summer, hasn't he? Santa Lemons, you know, signed out of nowhere a little bit. Everyone's going, who the hell's this guy? Onana, you know, leaves the club. Made a decent early start. There were lots of even jokes amongst Manchester United fans in that first game he played where he came to collect a few crosses and everyone's like, hey, we've got a keeper who can collect crosses.

34:52Bode Glimt: He's really showing he's up for the scrap now, isn't he, Gregor, with these goal-mouth scrambles in this game. Everton's main tactic seemed to be, let's everyone pile into the six-yard area and see who wants it. Turns out Santa Lemons wasn't bothered at all.

35:04Senne Lammens: yeah I mean that's the bit that obviously got the headlines because of how jarring it seemed to see just all these bodies piling into the six yard box and piling around the goalkeeper and piling onto the goal line but also like just you just feel a sense of calm when even when there's like a shot from long range or whatever and it's when it bounces in front of him you know he's gathering it it's not like pushing it in trying to push it to safety or maybe fumbling into the box and defenders need to follow up he catches is it it sounds like a simple thing he's just like he gathers balls really cleanly and you know there was a save the tipped over michael keane's one that was a bit of a cameras one but there was one towards the end that was like that it was a it was a real drive that bounced in front of him and he he just he just smothered it and like it's just like he just exudes calm which is all you want as a defender isn't it with onana yeah whether it's coming for crosses whether it's as I say gathering shots like that really cleanly it's just like oh it's good to have someone like that behind you if you're a defender and Man United fans haven't watched what they've watched for a couple of years now it's a joy

36:12Bode Glimt: so you add in how important recruitment and we've again chatted about this recruitment of football clubs at the start of the season and how many will work for you is vitally important now we've gone Sesco obviously Cunha Embermo Lamins all of these four and you're seeing them now playing and having a major impact on the results for Manchester United. So that in itself breeds confidence of other players around him. I'm sure Fernandes is enjoying his football way more than he was, you know, three months ago in a struggling team. They look the most likely team to get third or fourth. They look comfortably that at the moment.

36:47Bode Glimt: But it's also just a one week, one game hit, isn't it? They've not, you know, that's the other thing, which Manchester United fans wouldn't want. I'm sure they'd rather be in the still be in the FA Cup. But, you know, they've got another two week gap coming up in a few weeks as well. and then they've got an international break and things and they keep nice and fresh as they head towards the end of the season. But just coming back to the goal mouth scrambles and things, lots of conversations being had around it. Obviously, I think always a Monday night game when an incident like that happens really highlights it, doesn't it?

37:11Bode Glimt: It kind of kickstarts our week of debate. Martin Samuel writing about it on the Times website as well this week. What do you two make of it as two former pros? One of you would have been defending or maybe getting up. You'd have maybe been whipping the corners into that area. Tony, you'd have been in there both defending and trying to score. quite like it don't mind it think it spoils the modern game with the technical brilliance that we've got where do you stand i'm it's gone too far like all things it ends up starting at one place and then six months later everybody's been copying it and it ends up 22 players in a six rave gregor used the word pile on which is absolutely spot on but you you think of it it's just it's chaos it's causing chaos in every way and i just think it's gone too far there has to be something done where we're literally seeing wrestling in an 18 or six yard box more because it's all around the goalkeeper isn't it yeah you know every goalkeeper has been smothered yeah just just before we come on to what could be done then gregor your thoughts then same question don't mind it obviously there's a little bit of a culture war thing going on isn't there with football these days about whether you're for throw-ins and set pieces or against this is kind of part of it as well do you have to if you like throw-ins and set pieces do you have to accept 22 players in a six yard box where do you stand?

38:25Senne Lammens: Yeah I mean it's a difficult one because like this has to an extent gone on forever there's always been people whose job was to stand on the goalkeeper or like you know stop the goalkeeper block the goalkeeper then to counter that you get a defender trying to get in between them they're always trying to wrestle and wiggle now like with with the advent of set-piece coaches they're just taking this to an extreme it's like Arsenal obviously weaponised this for a long, long time, although they would have started at the back post. It's the same thing, essentially. They run from the blind side of the division and end up in that same position.

39:01Senne Lammens: It's all about ending up in the six-yard box and trying to smother anyone and be more physical and not allow the goalkeeper to come and claim it. So has it gone too far? It certainly looked like it was pretty jarring watching this game. You think, my God, corner after corner. The main thing that I got from it was admiration for United. I thought one of these is going to they're going to get something they did it at Arsenal as well they kept winning the first ball they kept getting the first contact so fair play to Man United for a start but Martins column was excellent laid out how where are priorities here in terms of again this IFAB meeting this weekend don't know why we keep talking about this they're talking about yellow card yellow card decisions or court being able to intervene to decide whether corners right or wrong with VAR like all these little tiny little kind of tiny little rule changes you end up everything is whereas this is something that was fundamentally changing the spectacle yeah so but i i haven't said all that i still i'm slightly hesitant to sort of to mandate something that would change so i got there was a listener wrote an email to me which just sounds like an eminently like good idea guy called howard sanders so hello howard he said he suggested that both teams be only allowed three players inside the six yard box so that prevent the kind of meat wall and uh and clearly players will still be able to run in once the ball the kick was taken yeah but if you look at what can be done that's one kind of thing and then the next thing is what martin was suggesting is like just cracking down on it but that's never going to happen we always get this it's not always in this scenario it's always like it could be dissent could be anything there's always like a new directive every year clamp down you're going to be booked and let you do it for a few weeks and it stops and a referee is not has not got the capacity to look at 16 players in a six yard box and find out what's the biggest foul who was committing it first and then so that's the first thing and then if we accept the referees don't have the capacity to decide that are we really going to ask VAR to start like deciding on you know to start ruling on these these sort of uh because they are fouls they're all fouls but then you'll talk about we always know that there's been fouls that are being allowed to happen slightly differently in a penalty penalty box particularly from set plays particularly from corners so it's a very difficult one see the idea is basically if

41:30Bode Glimt: everyone does it they can't set off everybody yeah so the idea is everyone's done it who are they're going to pick out unless it's so obvious that one is literally holding on or grabbing or frying a player to the ground the thing that the thing this might sound weird but the thing that

41:45Senne Lammens: i i have some issue with is this the idea that you're not allowed to commit a foul until the ball's in play now i know that's a fundamental rule of football but a lot of this stuff is happening before the ball's in play yeah so that's that's the other difficulty for referees you're looking at pulling and pushing.

42:03Bode Glimt: But referees are intervening, aren't they, before a corner's taken? To say, stop doing this, what you're doing. Because that will be a foul.

42:09Senne Lammens: Yeah, I remember when I was in the player to referee course, which I referenced a few times in a year, and, you know, I asked the question, why are they intervening? Why don't they just wait until the, wait until the corner kick's taken and then award the foul? And like, the guy leading the course, Dan Meeson, was like, well, it would be chaos, it'd be carnage. It's already chaos. Yeah. So, part of me says, just let them do the Royal Rumble if they want but as soon as the whistle goes and you see the foul continue when the ball's in play give the foul book them if you need to the booking's actually secondary a penalty is enough or a foul so this idea of intervening because you're allowed to intervene and say look guys cut this out because the ball's not in play like that feels like it's not it's not the right approach to me yeah

42:56Bode Glimt: I mean kudos to Howard as well he's managed to come up with a rule change that Gregor Robertson is for in the modern game if you ever want to crack at my job as well get in touch with me tom.clark at the times.co.uk or if you've got other views like howard on how we can maybe work out a happy solution between this goldmouse scramble or the royal rumble as gregor termed it just a minute ago anyway do get in touch with me tom.clark at the times.co.uk let's finish with a bit of former footballer q a i mentioned it at the start of the show we've got no journalists no columnists pontificating on this show just got two former pros and i thought it might be a bit of fun to have a think about your playing days your playing style what positions you played in and relate it to the modern game because i think there could be some interesting points made here so i wanted to start by saying which team if we're picking let's start with the premier league let's which teams in the premier league do you think you would have been best suited to and tony i'm going to start with you because speaking of goal mouth scrambles and royal rumbles you'd have said you'd have fit right in wouldn't you any teams though that you look at the way they play and you think i think i'd have done quite well in that team well i would have definitely gone for the chris wood row at forest last season.

43:57Bode Glimt: Obviously, he hasn't played this year. But that role where you're the forward, the centre forward that stays within the margins of the 18-yard box, but you've got lively wingers and quick wingers that get to bylines, pull the way back. I think that sort of style was... I did that towards my end of my career anyway. Because you generally, though, played as part of a two. Yeah, I was always in a two up until I went to France. But then you finished as a central striker in a three. A central striker. Well, it started in Marseille, but it wasn't like it was when I got to Nancy, where they basically had two young lads that were lightning quick, by line, pull back, get balls into dangerous areas.

44:32Bode Glimt: Get Tony the ball. But the one, I mean, look, I've said to this before, Tom, I've never met a centre-forwarder I've played, especially when I was in the top flight in England, that said they like playing on their own. It's a tough gig. So you tend to, you're working off of crumbs more often than not. You see centre-forwards. I mean, Ireland's had all these goals, but it's periods of games. He hardly gets the ball. I was going to say, do you think you'd have been playing these days? We'd have been going, Tony Cascarino's only had four touches against the opposition this weekend. Yeah, yeah, of course you do.

45:02Bode Glimt: I mean, there were alarm bells in some international games because at that time, refs were given fouls for lifting your arms. You'd jump and you lift your arm and the ref would go, foul. So we were told, be careful. Just keep your arms down because it's pointless you're winning the ball because you're going to get a foul given against you. So I would say certain teams that play with that style of that Chris Wood role. I mean, Arsenal did it with Jokeres. It could have been Jokeres. Look, the bottom line is... It could have been the trump card. 70 million quid brought back from Marseille. Well, how many players can get a high goal ratio with having very few touches of the ball?

45:41Bode Glimt: That's really tough going. I mean, it's Erling Haaland and basically no one else, isn't it? I don't know anybody else has done that. And even he's dropped off in recent weeks. to a degree but he had way more touches than even early in Ireland but he would often drop deep to get the ball beat the man and bang it in the top corner there's hardly anybody we're straying into the second part I wanted to ask let's bring in the culture left back here where are you seeing yourself on the bench

46:04Senne Lammens: I take it Tony on the bench on a bit late team I take it sorry Greg we were discussing beforehand like I think I would be best in a back three saw Crystal Palace I'll go Crystal Palace left of a back three yeah because like I was I played it in an era when full back changed remarkably like he became a winger nowadays you have to be a midfielder let's be clear I could not have been either of those things so I could have been a left-sided defender in a back three because I was athletic enough to be to cover the channels and like tall enough to be

46:41Bode Glimt: you also slightly finished playing left of a back two didn't you towards the end of your career sometimes

46:45Senne Lammens: I did sometimes yeah yeah I played and I played a lot of my Scotland 21 games in the left of back three as well so Tottenham last weekend or yeah I'll go Palace I'll take Palace you'd have been great alongside Dragas in last weekend

47:00Bode Glimt: but then that leads me on to the next point you both slightly touched on it like how your positions have changed so I mean coming back to your point about being athletic actually these days when a full back is allowed to maraud into the centre of the pitch maybe they're playing as a central midfielder or a defensive midfielder fancied yourself in that kind of guise rather than going physically against wingers all the time no i mean well actually when i started out i mean i played

47:23Senne Lammens: a couple of games left midfield or left wing for forest i played a couple of games in midfield as well because i was athletic but what is what is athletic now compared to what is athletic when i was starting out in you know the early 2000s is is a big change you think you're quick enough because obviously that's a huge thing that's the big thing for as a fullback particularly because the wingers you're playing against get quicker and quicker like and actually the longer i went in my career after a couple injuries and stuff that became an issue so i was keen to move inside one so i definitely think the way that football has evolved that would have been i would have been better being because also defenders are expected to do more with the ball now central defenders and i could do that you could step out with the ball but um i don't think i could be i could have been a left wing back or an inverted full back right interesting tony what about the

48:14Bode Glimt: the centre forward role has changed so much even in just the past five years, never mind since the time you've retired. Definitely got the physicality for the modern game, I would say. Yeah, but you can't really use that as much, can you? Not in the way that you did. No, well, you led the line in a slightly different way. So much is asked of you as a centre forward. You've got to be able to get in the channels generally, like on Ollie Watkins. But talking about, sorry to interrupt, you were talking about, before we're talking about the touches and stuff, you did a lot of the selfless work. That was a big part of your game.

48:43Bode Glimt: So these days you do not see yourself bringing in other players and actually you'd fit quite well in the kind of where forwards have to work really hard off the ball and for the ball and for their teammates. You did that. That was a big part of your game. Yeah, a big part of my game. I was a good 400, 800-meter runner. I ran for Northwest Kent as a runner and just did that really well. My only issue was that my biggest problem for my game was I had real battles with my weight. Right. And that was an issue even when I was playing, Tom. I would put on weight even when we would train, at training sessions.

49:20Bode Glimt: I'd still, and it was only when I was diagnosed afterwards with having an underactive thyroid that I really, I didn't know. But they'd have had all sorts of programs for you now. And I'm not talking about I went on the drink all the time and all that. But if I, keeping my weight down was a real issue for me. But they'd have had all sorts of programs for you now. Yeah, yeah, exactly. They'd have had that thing stuck on your back in training.

49:38Senne Lammens: It's always interesting in this conversation. you do often do it with like when how you think legends of the game would fit in in modern football but you're also like stony saying that you're also a product of your environment like you're right tony would have been in like unbelievable shape if we're playing for a team in the premier league nowadays and what that might have meant for his like well game and how that might have been different as well would have been really interesting i had that towards the end of my

50:03Bode Glimt: career because i had a completely different life scar lifestyle in france and and i was monitored a lot with my weight. I was basically a 13 stone 6 in France. I played at 14 stone in England. I was 8 pound lighter. They gave me a special diet to manage my career. I couldn't believe but some people come and watch me. I mean, Andy Townsend comes to see me in France one day and he saw me and he went, you look ill. I'm healthy. He said, you look like a Tour de France cyclist. My chin, my chin, my chin. And so we're having this laugh. and I was saying to him I said I've been the fittest I've ever been and then there was other people who come and watch there was scouts come to French games and now and again I'd meet the scouts at other clubs I might have known through my career and I'd meet them in the club after the game and they'd say I can't believe you I'm watching you run all over the pitch and chase in he said you look at a much more athletic player than you was when you was in England

51:01Senne Lammens: was there any part of you that wishes that you'd like had that attention to detail and stuff earlier in your career

51:06Bode Glimt: well it wasn't there Gregor it wasn't there Now, if I said that in the 80s, you know, the carry on. When I first started in the 80s, the carry on was just a joke. You know, it was so unprofessional. You know, and again, it wasn't just me. It was everybody. Because you'd finish training and everyone would go, should we play snow? Go for a pint or, you know, it was just a general thing that you do your training. But you was also under pressure that you earn your stripes. You can have a drink and you can play. As in after pitch, yeah. Yeah, so you have to perform. Even if you've had a drink, it doesn't matter.

51:37Bode Glimt: you still have to play that's your stripes and that was the mentality have you I mean I played with a lot of Liverpool players okay I was lucky and Manchester United you talk to them players of the way they carried on Liverpool they're some of their training before every session training session was all biscuits and chocolate all in the dressing rooms and I joined Chelsea every day there was two players that had to bring in two full bags biscuits and chocolate and everything coming to our dressing rooms and it was cake and Sounds class. I don't know what you're saying. No, no, no. But that was the 1980s.

52:11Bode Glimt: And someone would say, I don't know, Chelsea, Vinnie Jones, Dennis Wise, should we stop and have an hour and have a bit of, you know, chat with the lads and have a few beers or what? And if you said no, oh, even. So other than pints and biscuits then, what's the other differences? I mean, about 50 grand a week probably. Yeah, look, yeah, the money was a huge difference. But I seriously believed I played in the best time in football between 80 and 90 of where you had a life outside that was just extraordinary and you could enjoy being a footballer, you know. And when one social media came in, I remember bumping into Rio Ferdinand because he lives not too far from me.

52:52Bode Glimt: And he was saying that, you know, when the phones come out, even having a glass of wine in a restaurant with your missus, someone would take a picture of it. And it was like you were out drinking. And he said, I was having one glass of wine. Where abroad, they would have glasses of wine. we'd have it you know the night before a game wine would be on the table at Marseille for Gladys would have a couple of glasses of wine quite right too what a waste if you're in France what a waste you know and this was the time when they won the World Cup by the way speaking of social media then do you see yourself you would have been playing the game you know putting out the oh tough game today you know I could have been your agent I could have been crafting the tweets for you send this put this out gotta look sad put it with an emotional photo you know send something like this tweet something like this how do you think you'd have handled Greg social media with what it would have been I mean because we had our ratings and all you know you get the paper and all the lads will be sitting in you got five yesterday could give you a stick you know

53:43Senne Lammens: but no you're right I think I would have had to ignore it I think if I didn't do this job I wouldn't probably

53:49Bode Glimt: you also had some like bad injuries as well you know and even this week you've had a little up on your knee you're sticking it in the whatsapp group you could have been posting that on twitter you know come back stronger you know all that kind of stuff it works perfectly he writes with his arms doesn't he doesn't he I think so And what about we touched on it a little bit and we kind of danced around it. Tony, you might have seen a few more red cards if you'd played today. Maybe a little VAR. How many do you think I had in my career? Oh, I think you've asked me this before. Seven. Nine. Damn it.

54:18Bode Glimt: That was close. Nine reds I had in my career. Well, you would have had 19 probably with VAR. I would have definitely doubled. Definitely. I mean, look. It wasn't because... It's just the game is... It's just hard to not to get booked. You know, you're thinking of first booking.

54:33Senne Lammens: you'd be a product of your environment yeah probably they'd still be a lot higher Gweger

54:38Bode Glimt: any bad tackles that you can remember that you're thinking cool I'm glad there was no video checking he's a fullback

54:43Senne Lammens: in the stands

54:44Bode Glimt: he keeps everyone in the stands he barely ever got he didn't you never got I got two

54:47Senne Lammens: I think only two in my career yeah

54:49Bode Glimt: two reds oh yeah you did one that was like last man wasn't it and then any others that you're like whoo got away with one there

54:55Senne Lammens: yeah there'd be loads there'd be loads different threshold also different thresholds let's be honest in lower leagues

55:02Bode Glimt: you've talked a lot as well about players going on strike, Greg, do you think you'd have put your foot down and thrown a wobbly and stormed out of the dressing room if you hadn't got that big move to Grimsby?

55:10Senne Lammens: I may have. I may have had to. You've got to do what you've got to do, Tom.

55:14Bode Glimt: To make it at the very end. It's funny when you see the player who's had his head turned and he's at a club and suddenly he wants to cause problems because he wants to get out. That's quite funny. As in when you're in the dressing room. Yeah, and you're watching the behaviour and he's doing his utmost to get out of his football club because he's had an offer. Do you ever do it? No, I never handed in a transfer request. I never did that. I bet we're too quick to get rid of you. Yeah, no. No, I'm joking. No, but some of it's true. You don't need to hand that. Do you do it? Here's one for you. A lot of people will know.

55:46Bode Glimt: You know if you hand in a transfer request and you're owed money, signed on fees, once you're handing in a transfer request, you can't get your money. Really? Yeah. So that is you're handing over your money. Did you do that quite good, didn't you? Yeah, that's why nobody does it. Yeah. No, but that was the case. But we still see, don't we? We still see players. You're like forfeiting your money, basically.

56:04Senne Lammens: You're forfeiting your signing on fee. It was out because you're... Have you signed a four-year deal? Loyalty bonuses now. Like, he's like, never submitted a formal transfer request. He just said, I'll never pay for the job again on social media. Just so wobbly.

56:14Bode Glimt: Yeah, but you know, if you sign a four-year deal, when you get a signing on fee of 100 grand, you get 25 ,000 per year abroad. You get all of it out front. Right. So there's different things, but you would forfeit your rest of the signing fee after the first year if you said, before the end of July come, you go, I want to go. And they go, okay, and we're not going to pay you sign-on fee then. Absolutely fascinating. As long as neither of you go on strike from this podcast, that's all I'm bothered about. It's been absolutely fascinating. Do we get a bonus for the day today? I might bring some biscuits, like in the old days at Chelsea.

56:45Bode Glimt: Bourbons. I'll bring you some bourbons, no problem. They're only about 80p. That can manage to stretch the podcast budget for that. We'll leave it there. Tony Cascarino and Gregor Robinson, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you two for listening. We'll be back with the regular show on Monday. We'll see you then. Thank you.