Brighton and Brentford upstage the 'big boys'

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1:16Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Brighton blitz Arsenal. Brentford breeze past Chelsea and Manchester City go three points clear at the top of the Premier League. Tottenham Hotspur score a goal but drop to the bottom of the table. Coventry City score a goal too and win their first top flight game for 25 years. and Lissandro Martinez scores at the wrong end of the pitch for Manchester United as Michael Carrick's strugglers draw with winless Fulham in farcical circumstances. We'll be discussing all of that and the rest of the weekend's big talking points plus explaining what happened when Liam Resenior beat his old club Strasbourg this weekend.

1:55Clue, it all kicked off in Paris and the Times was there to see it. I'm Gregor Robertson and joining me in the studio today are the Times senior sports writer Alison Rudd, The Times football reporter and European football expert, Tom Olnutt. And the Times football reporter, with a focus on Chelsea and Parisian football, Pete Rutzler. Guys, good to have you here. You are a Parisian football expert. PSG, now Paris FC. We'll be coming to that later. We'll cover all bases. You timed it very well. That was a great weekend to be there for Liam Roussini's eventful reunion with Strasbourg. But first of all, there's only one place to start, guys.

2:36Arsenal's defence was routed at the weekend. Brighton were brilliant. Third in the Premier League. The league's top scorers were with 16 goals. Jonny Northcroft in the Sunday Times described Brighton as the most forward-looking football operation in the Premier League. I thought I'd read a little excerpt from his intro because I think it was on point. They've got the youngest coach, pretty much the youngest team, and a style of football always based around the next thing, the immediate counter-attack after the regain, the quick pass that follows a player receiving the ball, the next sprint, the next press, next opportunity to take the game to the opposition.

3:10Here, all that came together to do the almost unthinkable and absolutely shred the composure, control and command of Arsenal. Summed it up pretty well, Alison. It does, doesn't it? If you wanted one word to sum it all up, though, I'd say... It might have been better. I would say fearlessness. Yeah. Because Arsenal have a cachet now. They are the reigning champions of the country. They've bolstered reasonably well in the summer. They've got, you know, more points at this stage of the season than they did at the start of last season, the season they won the title. Arteta is a year wiser, got that awful burden off his shoulder.

3:44And you feel like, I mean, you know, Tom Clarke sat in that seat that you're sat in now and said that, is it possible they could go unbeaten throughout the whole season? So that's a lot to take on if you're Brighton. But it's not a lot to take on if you don't care for any of what I've just said. You care about yourselves. And they believe so much in what they've got going there. I could tell they did not have an ounce of fear or respect for Arsenal. I mean respect in the sense of should they play differently because they're facing them. It was at them, at them, at them. Not really caring what Arsenal might do in retort, just going for it.

4:21So they are obviously a very happy camp who believe in their philosophy utterly. They have faith in the system completely. and it's almost not result-oriented. It's performance-oriented. Tom, their pressing is remarkable, isn't it? Mikel Arteta said that he knew from the first throw-in that they were in for a game, basically, and that he could also tell that perhaps his team weren't hitting the levels. They would have to hit if they were going to compete with Brighton. Yeah, I mean, I read a stat, I think it was the most regained in the final third against Arsenal in almost three years, I think.

4:52I think it's Brighton, I think. Is that right? Yeah. I mean, this can happen. I think teams, sometimes you go to Brighton and you can get ripped apart. We've seen that happen to the big clubs sometimes. When they click Brighton, they're a very difficult team to play against. And the pressing was really impressive. I think we talk about the young players and obviously the young coach, but Pascal Gross has been probably maybe the best player in the Premier League season so far. I mean, he's 35 years old and when he comes back, I think everyone's a bit unimaginative for Brighton to bring back someone else.

5:22Where's the young gem from South America? But, you know, fantastic. Like, takes set pieces, scores goals, assists, like leader of the team. I mean, yeah, what more can we say? Like, it's a slick operation. And the most impressive thing about Brian is it's not just two, three years. It's sustained now in progress all the way through. You ran the most as well, Pascal Grosz. 12.6 kilometres, despite being 35. I mean, yeah, I mean, the job they're doing is remarkable. I think, I mean, there's a couple of things that I took from the game, particularly seeing Costoulas scoring. because I think one of the big concerns that they had, I mean, this summer, I think they had a turnover of 15 players.

5:56I think it was either 15 came in or it was a total of 15. That's a huge amount of change for one window. You come into the start of the season, they've got nine players out. Some of them are Matomas out, Minte's out. And yet they've made this start to see the score. The most goals, 5-0 against Coventry, 3-0 here, 4-0 against Villa. Like these, it's super impressive. But I think at the top end of the pitch, losing Danny Welbeck, top scorer last season, relying on the younger players and you think, okay, are they going to get the same amount of goals? Is this going to hold them back a bit this season?

6:26They've got Europe as well. Kostoulas has been involved in six goals in six games. Two lovely goals, the first ones, weren't they? Both Gross and Kostoulas. And then maybe, I mean, we'll talk a bit about Brentford as well, but the one thing that they're so good at is just bedding players in, just bedding players in over time. I mean, Yalcoué didn't start this game. I saw him when he played against Chelsea at the start of the season. He's been around for two years. Someone we haven't talked about, a play you wouldn't really know. And then I think he went to Swansea on one of his loans, maybe Sturmgratz was another one.

7:00Yeah, they were fairly underwhelming loans as well. But as Alison says, there's still a belief in the player that they have. And I do wonder if an aspect of that is being the club that they are. The stature that you are that allows you to take players in. They don't necessarily need to have the same scrutiny on how much of a return you're getting immediately. but you're able to work them in at the right time and they can make the right impression. Kostoulas, I think, is a great example of that. I was thinking also of Brentford, you know, Kevin Sharder this year, for instance, three goals already.

7:29A player who's come in, we've seen a lot of Sharder, but he's not sort of taken up and sort of led the way with them the same way. Now, I know there's no Inbermo, obviously he had the season last year, taking on that responsibility. Now he's taking more of a leadership role, you know, in terms of their outcome. And I just think that helps those clubs to a degree. I think certainly in terms of the spotlight that they have. But as Johnny wrote, and as you guys have said, it's remarkable that they still seem to be a step ahead at this point. They've been in the Premier League for a long time, and yet they still seem to be a step ahead of everyone else.

8:05I think Herzl has got big club energy. I think what Alison says is so true about Brian being fearless. I think it comes from the manager. Because I remember speaking to someone a couple of years ago, one of the big jobs was up, and they said, keep an eye on Herzl. Like he's the one who's got a sort of aura about him that I think he could really fit in at one of the kind of big English or European clubs. And that comes from, you know, joined Bayern Munich when he was 12, right? Came through the academy there. He has a kind of Bayern mindset about him. I remember him saying, we did an interview with him, I don't know what it was, when he first took over.

8:34And he kind of said when he was a kid and he was coming through the academy at Bayern, all the opposition players would say, that guy, what? What, that's an arsehole? I don't know. What an arsehole. And he was like, I remember everyone used to say that about me. And I think people still kind of say that a little bit about Herzler behind the scenes, but I think in a good way, you know, that he's got that kind of big club energy, doesn't fear anything. He's not bothered about Arsenal. He's not bothered about Arteta. I think it could take him a long way. Brilliant fans will be screaming, hearing us moving their manager on already.

9:04This always happens. Tom took some stick as well. They'll have a replacement, I'm sure. They'll have someone. I mean, after the Chelsea game, just as Tom was talking, it came to mind. I promised David they signed from USG, who's also, they're also in by Tony Bloom. He spoke after the game. He's not really been involved. He's another one who'll probably get sort of bedded in. Just literally, his story was amazing. Obviously, he played for Canada at the World Cup, but he was just going around Europe, really struggling to settle at a team without being sort of bombed out. He was playing in Estonia, a league that not every game is streamed.

9:39and out of nowhere got a call from Union Saint-Geroy, USG, saying, we really like you. And he said, when we first heard about this, when we first notified that they'd made contact, I turned to my agent and said, I thought it was a scam. I thought it was a scam call, kind of thing. That's the club that's associated with Tony Bloom as well. Yes, yes, yes. They share ownership. Obviously, he's now moved to Brighton. But it's that level. I mean, that kind of insight, even if the player is like, where the hell has this come from? but it's quite clear that the way they work is a step ahead As you said we're going to come to talk about Brentford but Martin Samuel has written in his column on the Times website this morning about this being an opportunity perhaps Brighton and Brentford can dream of Champions League Elite are there for the taking that was the headline do you feel before we start moving on Rootscela Tom do you think this is possibly a season of opportunity for clubs like these the smart well run clubs who are challenging the established order?

10:38It's an opportunity. I don't think it will happen. I mean, I just, I always tend to think that after sort of six, seven games, we see a team and we think, wow, like these guys, you know, are they going to challenge for the title? Are they going to the Champions League? Martin said in his piece, you know, it's very easy to say it's only five games in. I'm saying it's only five games in. Like, I just think that ultimately, I think one of the big themes this season could be that we're seeing the big clubs are going to need longer to kind of settle in, whether that's because of the World Cup, whether it's because of the build-up of...

11:07I just don't think the big clubs are ready for this season at the moment. And this is very much true of Spurs. I think it's true of United. I think it's true of Chelsea. But you think they're going to be at some point? New managers, and I think the players are going to get fitter. And I think we'll see the better of them as the season goes on, which I think will then squeeze these teams. I mean, it's not to say there's not an opportunity. And I think we've seen in the last couple of years, these teams can get into the top seven, top eight, 100%. And then those European competitions are in themselves a massive opportunity to win trophies.

11:33top four I don't know I think it's too much OK Alison Arsenal a blip or a crack in the edifice of this sort of seemingly impregnable defence I well they they look rattled and that's probably a good thing for them because you can you can start to believe your own hype if you go if you just start the season so serenely you need to be you need your cage rattled a bit you need to feel like there are teams out there that can have a go and I think they'll probably respond really well to it. I don't think it means much for the greater story of their season because I think any club in the world playing against Brighton in that mood would have probably lost.

12:18I can't see that if it had been Man City, for example, we're now top of the league, I can't see they would have dealt with it any better. They were shocked. Their normal fallback position of, will be good at set pieces didn't work. They were vulnerable to set piece. These are reminders for them that, you know, the Premier League is incredibly tough. And so I don't see the edifice crumbling, to answer your question, at all. I think this is probably actually a really, really good thing that happened now and not in six weeks' time. Okay. Lots of love for Brighton there. Let's move on to Brentford.

12:55You were there on Friday night to see them win 3-0 against Chelsea and kind of, I don't know, is this a, you kind of referenced it in your reports, like you saw everything that makes Brighton, has made Brentford a success, their kind of continuity and a plan, patience, none of which was there in evidence for Chelsea. No, it was palpable that Chelsea are a work in progress and Brentford are not. And I don't just mean that because Chelsea have a new manager this season, I'm talking about recent history. Brentford are built on really solid foundations that came, started with Thomas Frank being allowed to stay when he had a poor start at the club.

13:35Stuck with them the same way that Brighton stick with, Brentford stick with, because they've done the research and they've run the numbers. So they stuck with Frank. They then became what looked like a solid Premier League presence, brought in Keith Andrews, who's taken it to another level, actually, because they're probably more entertaining under him. There's just this continuity of belief. They outmuscled Chelsea as a set piece. And from that moment on, Chelsea looked a little bit worried and a little bit, oh, our defensive frailties have come back to haunt us again. And sure enough, there was at that point, people next to me, I can guarantee you they were writing, because you have to write as the game's going on at an 8 o 'clock kickoff, they were writing about a Brentford win.

14:19Because it didn't feel like there was going to be a comeback. Once they'd got ahead, you sort of felt, yes, they're looking quite solid here. And this stems back to the fact that Chelsea, of course, they're a work in progress. They've got a new manager who has nothing in common with the previous managers. And he's working with a lopsided team where the attack is better than the defence. And Alonso now has the added problem that Morgan Rodgers and Cole Palmer don't work very well off Danny Welbeck. It's Jao Pedro who's crucial to that triumvirate. He was injured. That shouldn't happen. If you've got players of the calibre of Rodgers and Palmer, they shouldn't be discombobulated by the fact that the central striker is missing.

15:00They should be able to adapt to it. And they didn't adapt to the changes. And the most damning thing of all to end is afterwards, Alonso, who gave a very brief press conference. But he basically said they weren't feeling it. The players aren't feeling it and they're not feeling it for 90 minutes. He's got a lot of homework to do in the international break. I think there's something in what Alison's saying, particularly about how much of a change it is going from what Chelsea have done before to what Alonso is and represents. Because they had spent two years, including both Enzo Maresca and Liam Rosinia, playing a very specific positional style of play, which was very similar.

15:39I mean, when Rosinia came in to follow Maresca, we saw the same structures, you know, full-backs inverting into midfield, a 3-2-5, quite, you know, well-ordered build-ups in possession. Alonso's been quite different in quite a few ways. He's much more direct. There's been a bit more transition. He's playing with a back three, which he'd sort of splitted to. He's used a back four, used a back four against Haaland, didn't quite work. and there's a lot of getting used to and it is a big change. And it was one of the big talking points in the summer. Alonso is incredibly guarded. I mean, we saw that with the talk about the team news where Brazil announced that Jao Pedro was injured, but then Alonso wouldn't confirm that he was injured for the game.

16:23So getting stuff out of him is difficult. But in the summer, we were trying to get out of him. Are you going to play above the back three? And the reason you wanted to know is because how much of a change is that going to be? How, in terms of personnel, how are the players you've got necessarily going to fit? and there's a lot of adaptation. One, particularly in defence, now Chelsea have had issues with their defence for a little bit of time, but if you take Levi Colwell, he was injured last season, he's recovering, so there is that sort of aspect, trying to get some fluidity. But we're not quite sure whether this system works really well for him.

16:56I wouldn't say he's had a great start to the season. He's playing as a left centre-back. Previously, in build-up, he'd always been in the middle, he's the central guy, and that's been Maxence Lacroix. There's a lot of these little things that contribute to trying to get some order. And as Alison said, it's quite clear that Gio Pedro has a huge influence on how that front of the work together. And he was massively missed. I was quite, I mean, at the time, after watching the first half, I thought, this is quite encouraging. I mean, it was boring, don't get me wrong. It wasn't Chelsea electric attacking, but the way it just felt a bit more secure.

17:32And I thought, OK, you can see that you've got Jordan Henderson in there. Yes, he's not Jordan Henderson of old, but he's shouting at a lot of these guys. Has been a quiet team for quite a while. It felt like there was a bit of stability there, which obviously comes undone. I don't know. I have moments in every season, it seems, when I look at Chelsea's team sheet and think, how on earth is this what they have on the pitch after spending£2 billion? And this was one of them. I haven't felt that quite to the same extent. But you look at the four players across the middle, Gavarria, Barco, Henderson, Neto.

18:10I'm sorry, that's... That's exactly it, isn't it? How does this fit to the system? It was one of the other things, what the wing is. Pedro Neto's adapted pretty well, I think, as a wing-back. And it's actually getting more out of him because he's got more space in front of him to run into. Whereas before, if you're playing in a very slow build-up, he's got to slow things down and then go again. And that's not really... But it's not just about the system, it's the quality. Yeah, I think so. It's not just about adapting to Alonso. I mean, if you read out that four to me, I mean, Barco and Henderson as a central midfield pairing, 15th in the Premier League somewhere, I don't know.

18:41They actually did quite well for three quarters of the game. They work hard. I think Chelsea would need a little bit more than that for 2 billion. But given the injuries, it was injuries while they were playing. Yeah, but the predictable injuries. Yes, well, yeah, Caicedo less so, but yeah. I mean, selling Enzo, obviously, you know, and not replacing him. Suddenly, I mean, last season we were talking about Enzo and Caicedo being perhaps the best midfield in the Premier League, or one-off, and now losing both of those. And Kaiso is going to be back soon, you hope. Enzo is not coming back. And I think you look at what they brought on off the bench, Quenda, Achie Ampong, Nicole Giazuli, who I think is a 16-year-old kid, isn't he?

19:21First kid born in 2010. I mean, Esteval came on with three minutes left. I mean, they're not bringing on big guns to sort of rescue a match. Suddenly the team looks thin, the squad looks thin. just finally you don't think Brighton have got a chance of making it into Europe do you hold the same view about Brentford do you Gregor I personally think these upstart teams I don't know I think they still have a ceiling in terms of that but do you think they still which one would you say I think actually you look at the bench in this game from Brentford's point of view and they had Aaron Heckey on the bench who's often a star Sangari Jouf who they've brought in and you know I think could fit quite well for them Utara and Carvalho who's someone who's got a lot of potential there's actually quite a lot of depth strength and depth there for they've had time as well right they missed out on goal difference last year so I don't see why they can't make that next step it may not be the Champions League they haven't lost much they've gained from last summer it was so chaotic it's not been like that for them this year well Pete we're talking about Chelsea managers new and old you were in Paris this weekend to see Liam Rossini take on his former club Strasbourg owned by Chelsea's owners as well of course it was an eventful one tell us about it yeah what's interesting is he's jumped back in and he's gone back to France almost kind of picking up where he sort of left off because obviously he was on to a good thing with Strasbourg building the team up slowly got them into European contention and then obviously last season it was interrupted to go to Chelsea something you can't really turn down and a job that came too soon for him I think that's very very clear Paris are quite an interesting club Paris FC not Paris Saint-Germain so their stadium is literally next door It's where Stade France play rugby.

21:01They've been bought by the Arnaud family. There's a lot of money behind them. And in French football, television rights have basically collapsed. So if you have some money behind you, that gives you a bit of an advantage. It's quite an exciting project to be. And he started really well. So it seemed like all quite cordial. And even after the game, you know, he was shaking hands with everyone and lots of hugs to former players. And then, and then the flashpoint. He then got, during the game, the Strasbourg supporters had been just giving him, were insulting him throughout. singing about his family, some pretty nasty stuff.

21:29Normally it's the kind of thing I think sometimes a manager will, I think there was an announcement actually by the stadium announcer just saying like, can you stop making these chants? And normally they talk about it after the game. But he went over to the Strasbourg fans and just gave it the big one. Like just literally just arms pumping. It's quite extraordinary. And then obviously, so the Strasbourg players didn't like it, ended up with a little big scuffle over there in the corner. Yeah, pretty unique. a little bit. It sounds like though if he's being subject to really quite obscene chance then maybe you could give him some slack for doing that.

22:03Oh no, 100%. I mean, one of the things that came out was like, what, you're going to give it? You're going to take someone coming up and just gloating the fact that they've beaten your team. But it made for a very eventful return to facing Strasbourg. And obviously there's a reverse fixture in February which will, I'm sure, be an interesting reception. Do you think we'll see Liam Ressignor back in the Premier League one day? I think so. I think it's interesting that he's taken the step to go back to France just to... I do think there is something in just stepping away, trying to get back to the level he was at, progress.

22:32The project at Paris is very interesting because of the finances behind the team. They're at the top of the league at the moment along with Monaco and Lyon. There's a lot of scope to do quite well to get into Europe and make your mark that way. I think because of how bruising it was at Chelsea, you'll want that just sort of gap in time so that you don't just come back in and you get the same things for him back at you that was put to him at Chelsea. So I think so. I certainly think so, yeah. Well, you can read Pete's excellent piece on the Times website just now from Paris. Still lots to get through in the second half of the show.

23:09First of all, let's just mention to Coventry City, Alison. Their first win, first goal, first points in the Premier League for 25 years. 1-0 win at Nottingham Forest. Took a bit longer than they would have hoped. five games in but a momentous moment for Coventry as a club and Frank Lampard actually because we were getting to the point where the narrative was perhaps starting to question whether Frank was up to it in the Premier League I mean they haven't played abysmally Coventry in the build up to this there was still hope I think how important is it you know at the start of a long international break to end on that high I could have honestly I think I probably did I was going to say I could have watched for an hour these celebrations, but I think they went on for an hour and I think I watched them for an hour.

23:57I mean, they win fans of the season already for me. The way they sang De Silva's name over and over again until he went to them to receive the acclaim. The way they sang at 5-0 down against Brighton as well. They're amazing. At home last weekend. Yeah, they have really stepped up. Talk about relishing the return to the Premier League and not allowing results, near results, to get in the way of having a good time. This is what happens in the Premier League. They need to adjust to the Premier League. When you lose, you boo. No singing, it's the booing. And a beautiful goal by Jay Da Silva. It was interesting.

24:33Frank Lampard, it was a clearance from the goalkeeper. That's doing him a massive disservice. It was a beautiful diagonal pass. But was it, Frank Lampard seemed to change his mind whether it was something they'd practised a lot or maybe it was something they'd done once or twice. Okay, so it was a hoof. but it wasn't. It worked brilliantly. And he did, Silvers did take it really, really well. And with such a plot. Which I found really, really unusual. Like, not playing at any level, but like, to take, like, my weaker foot was terrible. I don't know what yours was like. Oh, God, I would have fallen over on my face.

25:06Yeah, but to take it so well. And to do it at that distance. Beautiful stuff, yeah. Beautiful. So it deserved, deserved, it wasn't like a smash and grab at all over the piece. They deserved it. And I just can't imagine I think you don't like football if no matter who you are, you weren't pleased for them, to be quite honest, because it was beautiful. Oliver Glasner, home record. Forrest have only beaten Burnley at the City Ground in 2026. There kind of seemed to always be a chorus of boos at the end of games at the City Ground. Obviously, positive result against Liverpool. Boos, though. Established Premier League club.

25:41Boos, yeah. You know what they're doing. Dormsory fans learn from that. Glasner under any sort of pressure. There's a few managers that are I presume he's always under pressure in Nightwing Forest we can say the same about Pierre Sajj perhaps he's gone in at Crystal Palace Goldstraw with Leeds this weekend there are a few managers and we're going to come to talk about the game at Craven Cottage as well who are going into this three week mammoth international break will have a bit longer to stew on their slightly disappointing starts to the season I think with Glasner you think with a little bit of time it comes in that adjustment phase with a lot of these coaches trying to instill his methodology.

26:18I think getting in Munoz is massive for them. Getting him up to speed with his new club will be huge. They've still got quality in there in terms of Gives White. De Lapp looks so much more comfortable in a forest environment. So there's enough there that I think they will start to produce a bit more, but it's a bit of a volcano there at the city grounds, so it doesn't take much for it to erupt. PSA is interesting, obviously, a 0-0 draw with Leeds, which is not a bad result away from home. Well, particularly considering how Leeds have started the season under Daniel Farker. Obviously, we've seen him drop some players, rumbles of unhappiness from those upstairs about leaving certain players out, which is never that good to see or to hear about, really.

27:04So you do worry about them, but obviously with the players that they've lost as well. I mean, you just mentioned Munoz. To lose him is massive. He was so instrumental for Palace last season. but he's another who's sort of feeling his way into the job obviously with Europe to balance as well which makes him probably more vulnerable OK, still loads more to come after the break including Tom Ollett's latest dispatch from the Temple of Doom at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium see you after the break for all of that and more

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29:25Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. I'm Gregor Robertson alongside Alison Rudd, Tom Olnett and Pete Rutzler. Tom, let's get straight to it. Tom scored a goal. Two goals, Gregor, actually. But I was going to say, they scored a goal, but they were 3-0 down at that point in time. So it didn't quite have the resonance that the Tottenham fans would have been hoping for. Yeah, and the game was gone, you know, in truth. I mean, it was by the time Villa had scored their third, I think 79th minute or something, you know, it was that sense in the stadium that some of the Spurs fans were leaving.

29:57It felt like the match was dead. And to be honest, even when Gallagher kind of pokes in the first goal of the season after, I think it's 490 minutes of football played, it was kind of almost like ironic cheers hooray you know like that kind of thing like and then they get another one and then people are like oh actually yeah but what to say about this I think basically you know Spurs played well for half an hour they played well for 40 minutes created probably three or four good chances maybe not golden chances but good chances Suzuki had a really good game for Villa in goal and then it's that same pattern I think where when you combine the lack of punch for Tottenham, the lack of ability to convert pressure and possession into goals with their collapsibility.

30:42You know, as soon as the game drifts and the opponent steps forward, they suddenly go into themselves. And you can feel it's a sort of a combination of the atmosphere in the stadium a little bit, but also I think just that kind of scar tissue of the sheer amount of disappointment and defeats they've had, particularly at home in the last year or two, that all kind of, you know, rolls in and suddenly, you know, the team just lose shape, lose direction, lose confidence. And that was the pattern again here. And I think you can be optimistic if you like, if you're a Spurs fan and say that throughout this season have been good spells.

31:11They have played well and I think they haven't really had the reward from their performances in terms of results. But equally, it's hard to see where the goals are coming from. Solanke doesn't look like the player he was. They've got players coming back, but they've got a lot of creators, a lot of dribblers, a lot of passers. have they got actually anyone who's going to get them 10 plus goals this season? That's difficult to see. And I think Deserby, you know, great coach, you know, great tactician. He has to find the solutions here, right? These are the players that he brought in. You know, a lot of the signings are very much on his head.

31:44It's now up to him to show that he can improve players as well as sign players, you know, because ultimately there are four or five players in his team who I think have a high ceiling, but he has to get into them and make them better than they are now. Where is Deserby just in the sort of Deserby mood scale? because I look at Tottenham and I've said to you before the podcast, there's a lot in their play that's quite encouraging, I think, particularly in their own third, middle third. Obviously, the final third is a bit of a mess at the moment, but it feels like, obviously, there's always a talk about players coming back, but if that can start clicking in the right way, in that first half an hour, you take the lead.

32:18The game stays different. You don't just fall into the same doom loop as you described it. Then they might not be as terrible as they're currently looking. With the exception that if De Zerbi starts to rumble and starts to just take on some of his players a little bit, just like erupt, right? It struck me in your piece in the game today as well, that he was digging out Fernandes and I said, I didn't like his performance. He's withdrawn again. It seemed to be quite a lot. And then that's the forehand too. There's the other one as well. It seemed a lot of players without actually a sort of clear, definitive idea of where they're going to play in the team and how that fits together.

32:56So where is Deserbi? Is he like, is he? A lot of questions you've been peppered with here. Yeah, I think in terms of Deserbi's mood, I actually think that in the kind of age of social media, it's quite easy to pull out little quotes from his admittedly punchy press conferences and think that he's having a meltdown. I have to say in the room, I feel like he's still fairly philosophical, that he's been quite calm. He's still got his sense of humour. Yes, he is picking out players. And I think you could, you know, Pete's right about the Tell incident as well. I think he's really frustrated. Like he's seeing these performances and basically saying, look, guys, we played well here for 40 minutes.

33:29We created those chances. Why then did everyone unravel and become, you know, this what we saw in the second half? You know, he can't understand the transformation. And the Spurs fans are saying, yeah, we've seen this for two years. You know, this is what always happens at Tottenham. This is the job you have. This is what you've taken on. But I think the meltdown kind of, you know, potential is there. Right. And I think it's on De Zerbe now to stay calm. And I think he will for now. I mean, in weeks ahead, let's see. But he's been fairly philosophical. I think in terms of the signings, I still think they brought in players that would improve the defence, improves the midfield, sort of improves the final third in terms of bodies.

34:12But they just missed that one thing that they are lacking right now. And when you combine that, of course, with the Richarlison situation where last season's top scorer is not in the squad, they just look light in terms of goals. How damaging is it to enter the... We just spoke earlier about how wonderful it is for Coventry to go into the international break on a high. And it could have just been a real sob story, but it's the opposite. I mean, if you're connected to Tottenham now and you've got so many weeks of knowing your bottom of the league... Or start after five games in Premier League history.

34:45Doesn't that feed into the sense that there's something Spurs-y going on? You almost can't avoid it, can you? This is like a parody account, really, of Spurs. You know, at the start of the season, there was all that money, 380 million quid spent. The joke would be, yeah, but they'll still be bottom of the league come the first international break. Oh, and lo and behold, they are. Yeah, I mean, it's clearly not an ideal situation. And I think being where they are is damaging because the worry is that you've brought in these players, these leaders, you know, the freshness, you know, Van Hecker, Robertson, Tonali, and the idea was to have more mental toughness, have more quality.

35:23The worry is, I think, with this, is that sometimes the results start to kind of take on a narrative of their own. And actually, I think if you look at the five games that the Spurs have played, I think there is enough. There's green shoots there to suggest they're a better team than what is being shown. The worry is that the noise takes hold and suddenly the players go into themselves, which is kind of what happened last season. Tottenham had a better team than what they showed, but they ended up being 18th for the second half of the season because ultimately they lost all confidence, you know.

35:50So De Zerbe has to make sure that the thing doesn't unravel because, you know, if they're still in this situation in November, December, then, you know, suddenly it can get very difficult. Aston Villa, you'd be pleased to move on from Tottenham there, I think. Two new signings, Nicholas Jackson and Manzabi getting on the score sheet. An absolute peach from Buendia as well. How was their performance and how do they look like they're shaping up this kind of new era under, still under Unai Emery, but obviously a big overhaul as well there in the summer. Yeah, and the way the fans were seeing it at the end, it felt like a release, a moment of relief.

36:24I felt like anyone who won this game was going to feel like a corner had been turned, especially going into the international break. They weren't fantastic, Villa. I don't want to say just because they won this game. If Spurs had scored one or two of their chances early on, we might have been talking about a different match. But they do have... It's a new night Emery team. It's built on stability at the back. There's cohesion. there's a counter-attacking plan. I liked Jackson. Like, I thought he played well. He gave Villa an outball, you know, either in behind or he causes problems when he holds it up as well.

36:54Manzambi is an interesting one. I think Emery said afterwards, you know, we need to kind of work on his positioning a little bit. And he is a little bit kind of like untamed, you know. And I think Emery will want to sort of solidify his positioning a bit. But he's a threat, you know, and he was a problem for Spurs, you know, throughout the game. Yeah, I mean, I think Villa played pretty well and they took their chance as well, you know, going, you know, taking the lead. I think their game management was so much better than Tottenham's. They were resilient for the first half an hour. They sensed when the game was drifting, it was there for them for the taking.

37:20And it was difficult not to argue at the end that they deserved the win. No team plays the ball through the middle the way Villa played. No. Those little give and goes. It's slick and it's short passing and they leave the opponents looking, well, how did they do that? No one does it. It's something very Villa-esque about it, isn't it? The way they move the ball through. White players come into little curve numbers. Numerous number tens, it seems, who all kind of take different positions, sort of vertically or not on the pitch, and they move it so quickly through the middle, yeah. But he's beautiful.

37:54And Tom's right. I think Nicholas Jacks, you know, there's a lot made about his transfer fee, £65 million. You know, positive times at Chelsea, but then really, it wasn't a complete and utter success. But I think he could be quite a good fit. If you think about the profile of the player he's replacing, and Ollie Watkins, great at running behind. can't be able to play. He had an outstanding game. I thought he made both Van Hecker and Van Der Ven look a bit slow and slow on the turn slow to realise what was happening. Huge Jackson fan. Big win for Aston Villa and United Emery still worrying times for Spurs and De Zervi.

38:28Shall we talk about Enzo Mureska and Manchester City now, Pete? If you want to. Top of the table. The only side in England's top four divisions with a 100 % winning record intact. I mean, they were made to work for this win against Sunderland. 5-3, eight goal thriller. What have you made of Enzo Morescu's start to life at City? Obviously the results have been fantastic but it's not been without its flaws and potential concerns as well. It's been a really interesting start actually I think. I mean this is five wins out of five but there's a lot to sort of unpick from all of their games really. You have the game where they beat Coventry just by single goal and then you have this game where Sunderland have more shots.

39:10They create really good high quality chances and struggled to deal with Brian Broby, who had a really, really impressive game. There's kind of this sort of, like he's inherited a really good team and they've added some really good players to that team. So there's kind of this sense of, well, if you don't touch it too much, you know, don't mess around too much, they're going to do quite well. They've got Erling Haaland up front, you know, they've got Donnarumma in goal. Like there's a lot of quality there. And so, are we surprised that they're in the top of the league? Probably not, no. There are still things that I've mentioned before that I'm waiting to see how they unfold.

39:48One of them being Enzo Fernandes and Ryan Cherky in the same team. Fernandes is a very attacking player. He wants to play the best. Mareska got the best out of him by him breaking into the box all of the time. And positionally, that does leave a lot of work for Frelia Anderson to do. And I've said about Cherky being a free spirit and Mareska not necessarily being a proponent of an attacking style of play that loves that kind of player. At the moment, it's working. And I think if he... And what I wanted to see, the interesting thing would be was what he'd sort of taken away from his time at Chelsea.

40:23What has he learned? What is he going to evolve and change? So far, we've seen subtlety. I don't think he's changed loads. But clearly, they still need to get that balance right in midfield, I'd say, because we've seen them concede a lot of chances and they're certainly not got the control that Maresca normally, because I don't know what this version of Maresca will actually look like, but that he would normally like. Yeah, Tom, Maresca said he would prefer a 1-0 win to a 5-3 victory. I'm not sure the fans would agree, actually. But Pete's right. I mean, Sunderland had more shots. They had better expected goals.

40:59They kind of tore apart City at times at the back. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I think at this point, I wouldn't necessarily criticize City too much for being a bit too open. Like, I think when, I think I said before, I think Maresca taking over from Guardiola, I think it's smart from him not to be too interventionist. Like, I think he should let this team breathe for a while, you know, and actually maybe as the season goes on, they will be able to perfect these things. But, you know, we don't, I feel like sometimes we're critical of Arsenal for not being open enough and not being evented enough and, you know, City score five and we sort of think, well, yeah, guys, hold on.

41:34Ultimately, you still look at the City team, I do, and you come back to the point you made about Chelsea, Gregor. You look at the line-up. On paper, it's still the best team in the league, I think. The front four is a cut above anything else in the league and it might be enough for them this season. Maybe it'll be enough. They can score their way to the title. What do you think, Alison? I predict now Cherki will win Player of the Year because he is astonishingly good. Pete's saying there's a danger of him being rotated out of the team in order to get Fernandes in it is anathema to me because he is the most...

42:08Based on what Mareska was like before, which is why I'm curious to see how he does it. Exactly, and it would be a travesty, I think, because he is the most individually talented player in the division. I love the Cherokee celebration as well, just standing there, stony-faced, looking at the crowd. Yeah, look at me. And we're going to see a lot of them, I think. As a personality as well with Mareska, he was very close to his players. So you can see, as Tom says, you can it's not you know I talk about what he was like and what he wants to see from his play and that kind of thing but he does seem like the kind of person who could see that of just let's just let this go let's just let this this good group of players just play and not want to instill what he wants to do Mreska's still at the very beginning of his managerial journey he has his CV isn't that big in terms of being in charge so I you could make the case that He was learning his way at Leicester, learning his way at Chelsea.

43:03He always had him... It's like he's been moulded to be the next Man City manager. He had that in mind. Maybe he can do that thing where he doesn't need to impose too much of himself on it because that was the job he was always going to get. Yeah, he was a young manager and he's still learning. Should we go to Liverpool's 1-0 win against Bournemouth? Isak back to his best, but no crumbs of comfort for Virts was the headline in James Gerebanks' report. The dispute, what does that mean, back to his best? I mean, he scored a quite easy finish and did nothing else at all. I mean, there's a lot of room for improvement.

43:37Talk about egging it, going to the crowd and risking, well, he got booked for it, didn't he? I mean, I just thought, really? He hadn't just scored a Cherokee-style goal. He just is virtually a tap-in and he runs into the supporters. That's the sort of thing you do when you've just won a cup or the title or something. Okay, but it's his fourth goal, which is already more than he scored last season. There's perhaps some glimmers of the player. There's glimmers, but I think there's a lot of work to be done because I don't think any team can, unless you're Man City and you've got Haaland, who also has a touch map that can be quite surprising sometimes.

44:15He does more per game than Isak's been doing for Liverpool so far. And his manager has said, I want more from him. I want him to work harder when we haven't got the ball. I want him to just be better. He clearly sees a lot more room for improvement. Because for a lot of the game, you're playing with 10 men because he's not getting involved at all. But yes, he's got the solace of being enveloped by the crowd and of actually getting the only goal in the game. Whereas Wurz doesn't have the solace of anything because he's now getting former players who are in commentary like Jamie Carragher really slagging him off and saying, what is this player giving the team this seems to be the main go to debate after every single Liverpool game it does because of the amount of money spent and because there was last season the narrative was Virts needs time to adjust some players take long and others to switch countries get to grips with the physicality and pace of the Premier League, this is all true but how long do you give him I don't see this season him being an improvement on his best performances from last season.

45:24And there were a lot of performances that were below par last season. There isn't a trajectory there. It's not like he's come away from an international summer reinvigorated and feeling good about himself again. Because maybe part of it is mental. It's really hard to cope with a huge price tag and then for people to expect something immediately from it. Well, be magical then. You cost a lot of money. Do something amazing. That's really hard. But it's not, it looks like it might have been a mistake because just maybe there are players who do not get to grips with the physicality of the Premier League and do not blossom in it.

46:00And we're going to have this, it's an awful dilemma. It's called the sunk cost fallacy that if you've spent a lot of money on someone, you don't give up on them. You keep going, you keep going because you need your money. You need to prove you spent your money wisely. But the longer you do that, the more detrimental it is on the outcomes for the team. So at some point, I think he's going to be dropped. Leverkusen-Württz was always at the centre of the team. They always looked for him. It was almost like, as soon as we win the ball back, where's Florian? Let's find him and he can... I think at Liverpool, it always feels like they don't look for him.

46:32And it's like, maybe he's so used to being the guy that gets the ball played to him and you're the playmaker, you're the central guy. At Liverpool, it's like, sometimes you want him to take the game by the scruff of the neck, right? You want him to be more involved. It sort of seems to bypass him. I don't know, I mean, maybe, I don't know whether they can get him more involved by saying you are the central creator. But ultimately, I think in a team like Liverpool, you don't get that luxury. You have to actually go and search for the ball yourself. And also in the middle of the pitch, the interesting players that got in there in terms of Dominic Sobberslai.

47:02Sobberslai wants to be that guy for Liverpool. Alexis McAllister does. You can already sense there's a bit of, wasn't it, I think in the first half you had McAllister and Sobberslai arguing over a free kick and Van Dijk comes over and says, no, Sobberslai's taking it. you've got personality in there and it's difficult for Verts coming in as well but I just think especially in the middle of the pitch they've got some big players in there and like you said he's either got to come and grab it or hope that the team gets built around him but at the moment there's not enough to say that they should do that Just quickly more broadly on Liverpool they play Man City Arsenal, Brentford and Brighton after the international break Tom how do you see the Raiola's impact shaping up now third clean sheet in a row not looking as fluid as he would perhaps like going forward and there's kind of seems to still be perhaps struggling a little bit to get them to to sort of demonstrate the intensity that he needs from his team all the time I mean they're not high in the running stats so far this season Liverpool are you know towards the bottom and that's surprising to me like that suggests that Iriela hasn't quite managed to kind of instil his way of playing yet on this team or maybe they're not physically fit enough coming back to the point earlier about you know are the big clubs sort of in their peak condition yet I don't think so but I think in terms of the positives, I do think, you know, the defensive resilience is important.

48:17Like we can talk about Isak and Vrts, but actually the big thing here is they've gone away to a good team and won 1-0, you know, and I think for a Liverpool side where we've been talking a lot about difficulties in defence, that fullback and the balance in central midfield, I actually think that's a really positive sign. I think Araujo has brought a certain solidity to that right-back position. You know, he's not a brilliant player on the ball. He's not a great technician. He's not going to provide you with fantastic crosses and, you know, assists and things, although he did that lovely flick the other day, but in general his thing is much more, I'm a centre-half playing it right back.

48:44I think that has helped them. If we're talking about Liverpool I think their strengths of course in attack we know what they've got but can they defend properly and get the balance right in midfield? I think this is a performance that will suggest they're going in the right direction. Jacquet's looked very good as well hasn't he? He's slipped in so surprisingly quickly I think for a young defender but he looks like a really good signing. Okay, blue half of Merseyside now 1-0 victory for Everton, continue their unbeaten start to the to the season Deirno Barry won it with a snake-hipped deflection but should he have had a second goal Tom?

49:16What do you think? This was a kind of far controversy kind of one of those ones where by the rules by the laws of the game and David Moyes even sort of admitted this that yeah it was right but it didn't feel right. I don't think he was going to get it was he? I don't think the keeper it didn't make any difference Johnson's run I think the header it was good and it was going to go anyway it felt like a reaction to the Haaland goal in a way it's sort of like trying to correct it by over correcting because I thought in this instance it should have stood. Newcastle United 2, Hull City 1. Rhetorical question here.

49:46Am I genuinely a jinx? Because I interviewed Sergei Yukirovich last week. And the inverse effect of Alison Rudd. We're talking about Fabian Hurtzler earlier and having his problems with the fans. Only gone from strength to strength. Interview with Alison and it all changed and turned around. Took him some cookies. That's all he needed. All he needed was a bit of love. Did you bring him anything? Did you bake any cookies? No, maybe that's my... Did you bring him grass? Did you bring him any gift Give him any gift at all. No, I mean, that's not really the odd thing, Alison, is it? It is, it is. Maybe I need to rethink this, yeah.

50:17But Sergey Kirovich has obviously been one of the main managerial stories or success stories so far this season. And actually, I think you still could see in this game, despite the fact they lost, they considered two goals very early, that Hull are going to be a very, very difficult opponent for anyone this season. They had more shots in Newcastle. that really came back into it. And it's been a real surprise, Pete, as well, that this team that were so widely written off turned out to be the team, the promoted team in the best shape. Well, they've got a lot of personality, haven't they? They've got a lot of character within that group.

50:53And it comes from the manager, so you're the best one to speak about that, mate. I mean, did you get that sense when you interviewed him, when you sat down with him? Because he, I mean, I've only seen him at the press conference after the Chelsea game, but he comes in and he commands the room, cracks a joke. You can see why a group of players would want to go with him. Did you like him? I do like him, yeah. I interviewed him as well before they played Chelsea in the FA Cup last year. And he's great value. He comes across as kind of big and slightly monotone and gruff. But he's got a great sense of humour.

51:26And I think the players really, really love him, actually. And it was interesting. One of the questions I asked was, if you could just give me one reason for Hull's success, we'll start. And he immediately shot back just our togetherness, saying we're like a family. And that sounds trite, it can sound trite, but when you think about the extent to which they were written off by everyone and people were wondering whether they were going to beat Derby's worst points record of all time in the Premier League, they used that as motivation, clearly. And yeah, he's a very likeable guy. I think actually the wider Premier League are starting to see a bit more of his personality.

52:06You saw him kind of cracking jokes about how they were going to stop Chelsea's forward line before the game at Stamford Bridge last week. Kick them. Even when Sorba Thomas flipped his car after having to sign him for Stoke on the way up the narrow little country lane drive up to the training ground, I saw that and you could see why it would be possible to flip your car there if you click the kerb. He compared him to Max Verstappen. so yes excellent start for Jachirovic and Hull City only one game left to talk about and I was at this game as well Manchester United won Fulham won shall we just get straight to it and talk about Lissandro Martinez's own goal calamitous stuff wasn't it yeah it was I know I was watching on the TV and you had Gary Neville saying it's the worst 15 minutes I've seen United play but it was a really strange 15 minute period where and it was strange because we're just not used to seeing two teams be that passive out of possession.

53:04And I remember thinking at the time, I get why Fulham are playing like this. Fulham's start to the season has been erratic, it's been chaotic. Ableo has come in and just gone, like, we're going to press like mad. And they've had open games where they've not had control, and the defending has been shambolic. Went to Anfield last week, introduced a double pivot, brought Sander Berger next to Shea Charles. Solidity, get a point. Here, same thing. Come on, break us down, completely get it. But United, United given what's happened. I found it... It was unusual to see them not want to be protagonists in that game.

53:36When Fulham are under pressure, they did kind of need something. The coach hasn't won a game. Like, it was unusual to see them play in that way. And that 15 minutes at the start of the second half was... It was very strange to come out after a half-time team talk and to play like that. And the goal was so fitting of that period, wasn't it? I mean, Cunha is so weak in protecting the ball. Bassi just takes it off. I mean, Lamens has had a bit of criticism for the save. I mean, I think he's made a decent save. I don't know why he went with his feet to try and save it. I mean, I know why he's thinking about the pass back, but really, you claw the ball out of the goal by any means and then you worry about the rest later.

54:19Even then, there's a distance before he gets to Martín. Like, enough distance. It's not like me to Tom now, is it? There's enough time to sort your feet out. I think Martínez is trying to flick it, isn't he, with the outside of his foot kind of thing? He didn't know what he was doing, I don't think. Calamitous. What does this mean for Michael Carrick? I mean, five points after five games, 12th in the league. The pressure was ramping up before this. He really needed three points against a winless team who started the day at the bottom of the league. And we go into three weeks with, undoubtedly, the familiar cycle about Manchester United and their manager and what comes next.

54:57Yeah, I mean, I think if they'd lost, then it would have been real pressure time. I feel like that goal just kind of like maybe means the criticism is slightly wider, but maybe slightly less kind of directed about his position, bought himself a bit more time. I mean, I still think United, like the problem is in midfield. They're just so easily overrun. They get so easily played through, you know? And I still think you look at the direction of travel win the Premier League. You can have very good attackers. You know, you can have good wingers. But actually, the real fundamental position right now is in central midfield.

55:29It's why all the money is being spent there in the summer. And what are people spending money on? They're spending on athletes, people who can win duels, people who can run. And I look at United's midfield, it still seems to me it's a little bit, I know they've made signings, but it's still quite kind of slow and ponderous. You know, Manu, I think, actually played quite well. But Tielemans looked a bit sluggish, I thought. Is that kind of mixed with Bruno just ahead? Is it a bit too open for the Premier League. Like, it'll be interesting to see when Balaber comes in, when he gets fit, whether he can kind of solve that problem.

55:55But I still think you look at United's kind of spine in terms of the central defence and the central midfield, it's not quite there, you know, and I think that is what Carrick is still wrestling with. It's light, isn't it? I mean, similar thing when they played Ipswich and they won 5-2. Like, you had that first half where they just kept going through the middle. Tielemans is a lovely player, but like Tom says, it just feels kind of light. And there are a lot of players in that team who aren't athletes, really. Because Brian Mbomo runs a lot. Great physicality. Not much else besides, particularly in midfield.

56:26Particularly the ones they brought in. Fernandes isn't that player. Rashford can be. Tielemans isn't that. Colby Minew's game isn't really that either. So that's the centre of the pitch, pretty much. And that will hurt them. And to be honest, actually, when you think about it, that probably explains why Carrick wanted his team to be passive off the ball because they can't actually do a high-intensity person. But if Fulham had had that cutting edge, oh my goodness, because some of their approach play, it was like, you know, when you go and you're allowed, you're not very allowed very often to do it now, but you go and watch training of a Premier League and you see all these mannequins up and you think, well, why are they doing that?

57:07Oh, they're just sort of warming up, really, and you're allowed to make these really pretty patterns, really work your way up the pitch. It's all very pretty, but there's not real people in the way. And Man United were like that. They were allowing Fulham to play some of the prettiest football. This is the team who start, as you said, start the day, bottom of the table, new manager, people having doubts about it. And they played, I'm not joking, they played some of the prettiest football I've seen all seasons. They certainly had a lot of chances. In fact, it was the game, I think the most go-mouth chances, I think 26.

57:42in a goalless first half on record since Optus started taking records. It didn't feel like 20 seconds. I know there were a lot of chances. It certainly did around the half-hour mark. It sort of sparked a life and there were flurry of chances at both ends. Oscar Bob had a chance. Garcia had about three chances. King had three chances. King was in great form. So you wrote about Fulham and the difficult start under Arbeloa last week. Do you think there's been some positive steps? You know, obviously they got a point last week at Anfield. This they could have quite easily won and perhaps deserved to.

58:15Do you think this is kind of positive baby steps for Arbolua? Yeah, it's been a really important week. Also winning against West Ham in the League Cup, which again, if they'd gone out of the cup, that again adds a bit more pressure. I think he's changed. He's adapted, which he had to do. And I think that's a good sign in many ways. They brought in David Affengruber, who's a quicker centre-back because they were leaving a lot of spaces when they were pressing high. It'll be interesting to see how they sort of go forward. What will Arbaloa's football sort of look like? October's massive. They play all three newly promoted teams and they need to win.

58:49Gregor, what was he like, Arbaloa, afterwards? What do you get behind him? He'd given an interview to Sky Sports in which he kind of suggested that Manchester United, the officials had skewed their decisions in favour of Manchester United, which was quite a potent thing to say, shall we say. particularly after the kind of the VAR controversy in last weekend's Manchester derby he sort of suggested that they wouldn't let Manchester United lose this game so he spent most of the press conference with the written media pushing back rolling back enormously on that so he was saying that he was clearly hugely frustrated and you can understand why because Kunia's goal the deflection was hugely unlucky so you should have asked him about his jacket you know he didn't like that did you?

59:33he said the Miami Vice should have the Miami Vice Was Michael Carrick wearing a jumper under his jacket? He was. Very questionable touchline attire from both managers. But we'll have more time to talk about that in the three-week international break, perhaps. So, Alison, Tom, Pete, thank you very much for joining me. We'll be back with an EFL podcast in midweek and we'll be back with the regular show on Thursday when the focus will turn to international football. Hope to see you then.

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