Can free scoring Brighton upset the top four?

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1:05Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. A 5-0 win against their rivals to make it 23 goals in seven games. Brighton are third in the Premier League, but just how high can they go? On today's show, we'll also ask what the future holds for struggling Crystal Palace. Wonder whether Chelsea can challenge for the title. look at wins for Arsenal, Liverpool, Bournemouth and Fulham and hear why Michael Carrick believes a point at Leeds gives Manchester United a fresh start. Joining me, Tom Clarke, for all of that and loads more, we have the Football Reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Chelsea, it's Peter Rutzler.

1:42The Football Reporter who, as well as covering the women's game, also has a focus on Crystal Palace, it's Kit Shepard and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is alongside me as usual. Team, it's an absolutely jam-packed show. we're going to get straight into it before we hear from the guys in the studio let's hear from joe harston our football reporter who was at brighton 5 crystal palace nil and he offered these thoughts on both sides so i'm back from brighton where i think i might have just about digested the first 10 minutes of that game i don't think there's a more chaotic start possible than an own goal than a goal from the halfway line and luckily ayari's goal before 10 minutes was a bit more classic bright and build-up player but i think the main takeaway here is that brighton really are the real deal.

2:23The goal record speaks for itself in that sense. And that's 23 goals now in their first seven games. Only three Premier League teams ever have managed to do that before. So you can really see that they are fantastic in front of goal. Also, they're scoring from lots of different positions. The first and last goals both came from set pieces. And it's not just the movement in the box or the routines, but it's also the deliveries as well. Pascal Gross is so crucial for that. And then also, you know, there's this fantastic buildup there through the middle. they're comfortable going out to the wings and failing all of that you can only take a pump from the halfway line and score like Diego Gomez so I think you can really see that anyone that comes up against Brighton any defence that comes up against Brighton really have their work cut out for them this season however I think you have to look at Crystal Palace and you can really see that this defensive chaos and also the amount of chances they're conceding has been such a trend of Pierre Sarge's tenure so far and you can understand why his job is under threat right now.

3:20They've conceded more goals than anyone else in the league. And you can see how I was at the Forest game last week when they won 3-1. But they conceded early on that day as well through a defensive error where Anand Kalali was leaving lots of space behind him and let Dan and Dory through. And this was just a day where they did get punished. Last week, they didn't get punished, but this was a day where they did. And it really shouldn't be such a surprise that this has finally happened. I think it's worth noting that Pierre Sarge was left maybe a little bit under-equipped at the back. They've lost Mark Gahey in the winter window when Glasner was still there, and then they've lost Maxime Lacroix in the summer.

3:56He was asked about this in the press conference afterwards, but he was obviously very diplomatic, obviously doesn't want to say anything too bad about the people that could be making his decision on his future soon. But he agreed that it's the right decision when you've got to make the money and keep the club functioning and reinvest it. But I think that he doesn't have a lot to work with there, and you can see why these defensive frailties are there. Gregor then, Joe saying Brighton are the real deal. What do you think? It was an amazing win, another amazing performance left you going, they're really bloody good, aren't they?

4:27Yeah, there's an opportunity this year. I think probably we've said that for the last couple of years. Partly because of the context about where Spurs are, where Man United are and this sort of feeling that, yeah, they're going to come good again eventually. Manchester City situation, but also because Brighton just seemed to have developed an enormous amount over the past well since you know the February game where they lost they were booed off against Palace there's been a massive turnaround and part of that's to do with the recruitment which just seems to keep turning up new gems and part of that I think is just to do with Thurtsall he deserves an enormous amount of credit because he was you know he was in a situation where he was certainly not loved by his own fans for that's not that long ago it was about a year ago and he's turned it around enormously and they're just so energetic and intense and that's a buzzword now but they really reflect that intensity and power in everything they do Pete in terms of Greg has done a good kind of potted highlights there of everything that we love about Brighton and what they do so well just on that recruitment idea we're just talking just before we press record on this Luka Vuscovic another great example signed from Tottenham a lot of people going that's a lot of money I think it was around£45 million for a 19-year-old from Tottenham.

5:43Van Hecker going the other way. By October, you're going, what a brilliant bit of business that is. It is such a big part of their success, isn't it? The brilliant recruitment that they seem to pull off every window. Vyskovic is interesting, I think, for Brighton in that I think Tony Bloom was saying recently that they wouldn't normally spend as much money as they did on a player like that. And he will probably stay as their record signing for quite a while. but because of how good they think he is, they decided to make that outlay. And we've already seen immediately that he's come into the team and made a big difference.

6:16And we talk about Brighton's recruitment and we've talked a little bit, I mentioned before, that they had a huge turnover in the summer and it seems to be a regular thing. Half the players we don't end up seeing because they'll pop up two years later. But this summer, they did really lose a spine. I mean, James Milner retired. Danny Welbeck joined Chelsea. Van Hecker, as you mentioned, went to Tottenham. These are really quite key players. They've still got injuries. Mitoma's out. Minte's out. Mats Viva's out. Viva's been an important player for them. Carlos Baleba's joined Manchester United. And yet they've been able to weather that change so effectively, moving more towards the style that Herzler wants to play.

6:56They've got the lowest PPDA, so they are the best at pressing. We saw that against Arsenal. We gave them so much praise for it. And here, Crystal Palace, which is sort of blown away. Also very good at set pieces. they scored the most goals from set pieces in the Premier League this season which last season they were about 17th for their stats so that's an area that's improved obviously it sets them on the path to victory here that free kick from Pascal Gros and obviously Gros is integral to that but even that signing as well when you think about he'd left then bring him back later in his career many people might go oh that's a bit weird and now everyone's going what a fantastic side performing as he said himself the best of his career I think 35 yeah but that's all part of their balance of their squads You know, when I spend a lot of time covering Chelsea and the criticism of them when they were signing players from Brighton, staff from Brighton, was that they weren't doing the full Brighton way of doing stuff, which is young players with the experienced heads to help them.

7:51So even though that they've lost Welbeck and Nourna, they've still got Lewis Dunk. They've still got Jason Steele still there. And obviously, Gross has come back in. And there's always that sense of just holding a core of what it is to be Brighton and then to set the standards and to help these players who won't necessarily always be consistent if they're in that development phase of their careers. You talk about balance. You see almost a balance and versatility in the results they've had this season. I mean, it's mostly wins, but it's different types of wins. They've hammered Arsenal. They've had the big game against their rivals yesterday, hammered them.

8:21They've played with 10 men against Sunderland and won. They've been 2-0 down at Old Trafford in the Cup and found a way to win. So there's lots of different blueprints, it feels like, for Brighton to have success. I think, as Pete mentioned, there could be more to come with. Matoma and Minto would be, you'd say, two of their most dangerous attacking players last season. So we might not even be in Brighton's final form. And you're looking at games coming up, Anfield, Yeti had. They're worth getting excited about. They just know what they're doing, don't they? Gregor mentioned it about the pressure that Herzler was under.

8:54I think it was a run of 13 games without a win. The fans were booing. I think it was in this fixture, actually. I think it was in February. The fans were booing. A section of their sport wanted him to go. I mean, we did a piece at the time being like, what's going on here? But then you speak to people at Brighton and they were like, look, we could see the results aren't great. But what we're seeing in the data is that it's pretty tight. Things haven't quite fallen the right side of the margins and it's paid off for them big time. They know what they're doing. They are such a well-run club. And you mentioned if they can break.

9:23considering where some of the bigger clubs are at absolutely they can crash the challenge the point that Pete made about the sort of room the bit of pragmatism in the recruiting model is important too like Olivier Boscaglia the left back he's 28 he joined from PSU last summer Svoboda the second half who came in the summer he's another one you can have going when did they sign him you know Pascal Streich he's 28 he's 28 as you said so they've always found the room for that although most of the players and as Pete's saying there's like guys like Malik Alcouye who signed as an 18 year old from Gothenburg two years ago, spent two seasons on loan, Sturmgrat, Swansea.

9:57Ayari three years ago, loans at Coventry, Blackburn. He's a superstar now. So we've got those players that they sign really young and develop and take time and there's no rush over and they nurture them. And then they've got players who've got a bit of experience, a bit of nous and they're really important as well to help everyone else. Yeah, Kit makes a good point as well about the players who are out. It's also a point that's made by Chris, who's a Brighton fan, who's listened regularly and had a few chats with me before about my analysis of Brighton but he got in touch yesterday where they say we're going to win the league Tom tell Gregor when City get their points deduction it's us or Arsenal half our first team are still injured they're coming back in the next couple of weeks it's happening might be a little bit excited but listen they're allowed to get excited but it does lead me on to posing the question Gregor you talked about an opportunity this season just how high could Brighton finish I'll start with you I think there's an opportunity for a team to to break into the Champions League places like Tony Bloom said he said the top five as opposed to the top four because it could still be a top five and you know I mentioned Spurs and Man United who think they're going to come doesn't look like they are they're going to be really challenged they might rise up the league but there's an opportunity there Villa have been in transition we're seeing them start to but they're still in transition Newcastle look like they're struggling teams who have who we think at the start of the season are in that conversation are struggling and Brighton will have bumps in the road but they've got a pretty stacked squad Another point is the fact that they're playing in the Conference League.

11:25I don't mean in disrespect to the Conference League, but they can literally play the B team and get to the latter stages. So people talk about, as part of the Chelsea conversation, that they're a challenger because they don't have any European football to contend with. The Conference League is almost like that until the latter stages, until after Christmas. I think at least Champions League. Really? At least? Yeah, well, mention they've got a trip to Liverpool, a trip to Man City coming up. I think those are the real tests for them, especially Man City having won every game so far. Probably err on the side of caution, maybe say, okay, let's say third or fourth rather than first or second with Brighton right now.

12:07But let's see in a week's time. if they go to the Etihad and beat Man City, which you probably say is unlikely, but not impossible at this stage, then you will have to say their title contenders at that stage would be a bit like, let's mention the L word, Leicester two years ago when they won at Man City. Now it was much later in the season, but that was almost like the big moment of realisation. And it'd be the same. Again, we're obviously talking in hypotheticals at that stage. But yeah, I think at the very least, Champions League for Brighton and never winning a major trophy. They've got, if not the Premier League, they've got three other chances.

12:43Conference League, they frankly should win that competition as any Premier League team in there should. And then the Cups as well. So you think for Brighton, top four and a trophy isn't at least one of those two fields. Four and a trophy. Pete, any dampening the mood at all here? No, I was teasing a Palace fan on the desk before we came on about the Palace fans turning up at Brighton with inflatable trophies. obviously that backfired a little bit but to be fair they're probably thinking we should enjoy this while we can this is probably the early season we're going to be able to do this it didn't last very long Champions of Europe you'll never sing that for the half of six months but yeah I agree with Gregor about the dynamic of the Conference League it's different to being in the Europa League I think the quality gap is massive it actually could be quite useful if you're trying to bring back a Toma or a Minter Chelsea were like that and they used the two teams didn't they for the first half of the season for players who weren't really in the picture it's opportunity for minutes I mean I think I think it can cause City problems, just style-wise, the way they're playing.

13:38I think that could be an interesting game. But they are running a bit hot. I mean, they did score from the halfway line on. Yeah, we're going to talk about that in a sec. Against Palace. But also, I think they've scored 23 goals. Their ex-season is about 12. That's a big, big gap. So that should cool off. And one of the issues Brighton have had, actually, the last few years, really, even maybe predating Urzula, is that they never really took their chances. There'd be so many games where they would be the better side and they were never clinical enough. But, you know, we talk about these things and they're normally over a longer time span.

14:08I mean, most of the Sunderland were overperforming and running hot last season. That carried them all the way through to the end of the season. So, I mean, this is the thing with these kind of runs. The confidence that they are playing with, the way the players are feeling, can take them very, very far. Certainly, yeah, Champions League, it will feel possible. Hugely exciting for Brighton. Because they're running hot, yeah, you'd think they will cool off at some point. they are absolutely hammering teams at the moment. They can call off a little bit and still keep winning. Still win 2-0. Maybe if the halfway line goals don't go in, go on.

14:42I'll start from Bill Edgar in the paper today. The first team in top flight history to hit four goals or more without conceding on five occasions in their opening 11 games. So that's kind of, you know, we saw the stat that only Barcelona have scored more goals in the big five leagues in Europe so far this season. They are running hot, but they've got a lot of threats. I really like Costoulas as well he is someone who is like he may take three or four chances to score the goal but he's another one he's only 19 and he's come on leaps and bounds no one saw them scoring as many goals is what we're saying Welbeck was the top scorer last season it was the question with Brighton coming to the season are they going to score enough goals and I mean they've emphatically answered that question certainly helps an amazing strike from the halfway line from Diego Gomez are going in the net with such ease what an amazing strike that was Pete you wanted to make the point that actually this is not a surprise no because Fabian Herzl I saw the Match of the Day interview afterwards and he sort of said, oh no, don't really work on that in training.

15:34Rubbish, I'm not having it. They've tried it in almost every game this season. I think only Leeds, they've not tried to score from halfway. So I've listed them. So Pascal Gross and Diogo Gomez tried it against Sunderland. That was shown on Match of the Day at the weekend. Kemah Andres tried it against Arsenal from halfway. Voscagli tried it against Man United. Voscagli and Andres tried it against Coventry. So it's similar players as well. The Chelsea game, Voscovic tried it from about 40 yards. So I don't know if that counts. Maybe not. And they didn't against Leeds. But it's been quite consistent in the last few games.

16:04So clearly this is something that they've spotted. Maybe it's just a bet between the players, though. Maybe Herzl has no idea about it. And they're just all behind his back going, I'm going to try and score. Right, you all owe me a tenet. The only thing I thought it might be, considering how this goal happened, because I haven't watched all of these back, but it happened straight after a turnover in the middle of the pitch. Straight away, one touch from Gomez, head down, doesn't even think about it. He knows there's been a turnover in the middle and he shoots. So I wonder if there is that sense of, if they're playing against the team, most keepers have quite aggressive high starting positions they've looked at that and gone particularly against Brighton because you know as soon as they turn over they're looking to try and get in behind they're a very direct team that doesn't mean it's the long ball hoof it it's like they're just the quickest route to goal and this is this is like this is the quickest route to goal to extreme level as in other ways it would be very Brighton as well to work out that actually statistically it's not bad it's a shooting halfway line it's not just a hit and hype another nail in the coffin of XG as well.

17:00But in terms of the goal itself, it was an amazing strike and I just wanted to get your kind of comparisons with some of the great strikes from that distance. There's a big list. I've got the kind of safety net here in case you missed any out. But Gregor, where does it rank for you in terms of some of the best? You don't have to do your favourite. You can come back to do your favourite at the end because I think everyone knows which one you're going to pick. Anyone should know that, yeah. Look, I loved Rooney's for Everton against West Ham in 2017 because clearly it was different in that Joe Hart who was in goal for West Ham ran out of his goal in a sliding tackle slash clearance but the speed the ball was coming to Rooney at the fact that it was bouncing to hit that first time it's a remarkable skill to be able to do this you know in any circumstance but to do it as the ball was fired at him in that way and drill it first time was incredible and a lot we spoke about Charlie Adams before Charlie Adams is someone who used to do this almost every week 4 Stoke against Chelsea this one which is absolutely miles away 65 yards yeah I think it's the longest goal scored by an outfield player.

17:59I also love the fact that Courtois get a hand on it as well. The fact that it's Courtois, a great goalkeeper, nearly getting it, just adds to it as well. Yeah. But of course, objectively, the best one is Kenny McLean's versus Denmark. That's for the commentary that I... Yeah, that's mainly the commentary. Shoot, shoot, just for a bit of balance, I'll put in Patrick Schick of Czech Republic against Scotland as well. Kit, Pete, other ones we might have missed out? I mean, David Beckham is the go of halfway line goals, if only for what it symbolises and what it meant and launching him. Our friend, Mane or Figaro?

18:33Yeah, that's what I was going to go for as well. Stovey Wigan in 2009, I think it was. First of all, just screams Barclays. Also a free kick, wasn't it? Yeah. Stationable. And he doesn't touch the ball before and the ball kind of rolls to him and then stops just in time for it to be at dead ball. And the nets at Stoke, I quite like him. At the Britannia, I believe it was. I think it was went out and closed the corners so it was a little bit windier maybe. Yeah, even Darvish. Part work from Kit Shepard going from David Beckham to the Britannia in very, very quick fashion. Beckham and Figuerath.

19:06What makes the Gomez Strait so good though is just the fact that it hits the net flush. The trajectory is so low. I think you need... The only thing I'd hold against Beckham is Neil Sullivan really let him down with the kind of like lazy way he kind of just like jumps. I want a full dive just to really help him. Small bail on Neil Sullivan. Yeah, that's what I really want. I would recommend as well people checking out Keemar Roof's goal for Rangers in the Europa League because it's got a wonderful fact that he actually dribbles past some players, doesn't really know where he's going and then hits it from the halfway line in a kind of like, I subbed this anyway.

19:38It's got curl on it, dip, everything about it. Absolutely. Can we give a shout out to Bobby Canmore from a fortnight ago? You absolutely can. He's not listening to the AFL episode. You should be. An absolute beauty. This is like, that must have been close to the 65 yards. He's well inside his own half and it was one of those wasted goals because his team Bristol Rovers were 3-0 down against Crew Alexander and it was the 93rd minute so no one cared. And we're probably going to have another one mentioned on this week's EFL show with a brilliant strike from near the half way line. Loads of hype about Brighton.

20:05Loads of worries about Crystal Palace kit. Pierre Sarge, he's got a big week ahead, a trip to Besiktas before a massive game against Newcastle, fellow strugglers Newcastle at the weekend. They're a club that you've kind of followed through last year's European glory and into this season. Joe mentioned there the kind of lack of playing stars, recognisable stars that they no longer have in this team. How much of it is down to that recruitment side of things? And how much do you think it is a manager potentially out of his depth? I think I would lean towards the former, even though I don't think that means PS Harge's job is safe by any means.

20:43I think he is in trouble. but I think their recruitment just hasn't been as strong for the past 12 months 18 months as it has been before and I think Joe mentions it and his night is probably characterised by the situation defensively, they have been poor defensively under Sargent he needs to take a lot of blame for that but they lost Gay in January they lost Lacroix to Chelsea in the summer and they didn't really replace them adequately they had an 18-year-old in Honest Arnor so he's going to Chelsea next season in the back three on Sunday Jadie Campbell is only 20 and he's coming for criticism already this season we have just talked about Vuscovic so just because you're young doesn't mean you can't be defensively but I think for a team with Palace that has lost some big characters especially in the back to have such a young defence of a new manager it is a problem and just more broadly in their recruitment and it does feel like it's dropped off just that little bit.

21:44Dougie Freeman left about a year ago. Matt Hobbs is coming in as sporting director. He's coming in for a bit of criticism. There hasn't been like an Eze sort of signing, a Lisa sort of signing. Probably Adam Morton was the last maybe one that he absolutely nailed. There's been a few more misses, like Brennan Johnson came and went very quickly. Strun Larsson, they paid a lot of money for him. He hasn't been banging the goals in. Even someone like Roman Esser, who's gone out online again, obviously not pinning all of Pallis' problems on him, but he's someone who came from the Championship, the sort of signing which, if you look at it as Elisa pressing, you'd be like, right, Pallis will nail that.

22:21They don't seem to be doing that anymore. So, yeah, I think Sarge's in real trouble, but the problems go much deeper than him. If they, I think, Joe, right yesterday, had a slight Kieran McKenna, if they were going to make a change. But last time he was in the Premier League, Ipswich conceded 82 goals under him. So it's not as if he's going to come and ensure that. I do think for any manager, of course, you'd still want a Premier League job. But you would be looking at that squad going, this is a real test. Because the other thing I think is quite worrying from my point of view is they won two games in the Premier League.

22:51But there was that win at Fulham, goals from Tyreek Mitchell and Ben Chilwell. And then you've got the win last week against Nottingham Forest, which on a different day could have lost 5-3 or anything like that. So it's not like they're winning games and you're going, well, that was a good performance. That was really, it looked really, really rocky. So we'll see what the coming week holds for Pia Asaj. We might be talking about Crystal Palace again very soon. I wanted to move on to talk about other clubs where managers are maybe under pressure or were under pressure and are becoming under pressure.

23:19Pete, let's talk about Bournemouth-Sunderland, because that's one that maybe slightly crept under the radar, Regis Le Briss and his situation at Sunderland, but four defeats on the spin. This was an absolute disaster of the first half for them, wasn't it? But Marco Rosa getting a much-needed first win in the Premier League. Give us your sense about where these two teams are for heading into the rest of the season. Yeah, it was quite a big game for both, really. Obviously, both 6th, 7th last year, both in the Europa League, both having to balance European football as well. And, you know, Bournemouth really needed a win.

23:49Yeah. We talked about them last week. I think there was the sense that they were playing okay and most of the servers were like, this is going to be fine. They just need to turn the corner. I say they turned the corner. It was very straightforward for them in this game. And obviously you mentioned Sunderland as well under Radice Labrisis. They're on a difficult run. Some really interesting comments from Nordea Mukhele afterwards, which I kind of found slightly strange because he came out and said oh you know we're not as good as we're not been good enough we've been a bit arrogant and I didn't quite I didn't quite get that I didn't quite understand why he said that I mean their results I mean they played Arsenal City and Brighton and lost them really going to judge they were alright against Arsenal as well I thought I thought that was a tight game Guimaraes and also even this game I mean it was just I mean the first 50 minutes were it was really awful for Kevin Danza not much better for Alderete no no no he was I mean Alderete stitched him up and it's Danzo who gets the focus because for the first goal, Ever Nielsen just shrugs him off and squares it for Tavernier to score.

24:43And then 10 minutes later, Alderete ducks out the way. Danzo stumbles over the ball, Ever Nielsen makes it. He brings him down, sends off. And then after that, it's just, it's easy street. And I think Bournemouth, I think, recorded the highest XG they have ever done in the Premier League. Suddenly we're never getting back into this game. And when you've got two away trips in Europe in between, it's the worst case scenario. And Labrise came in afterwards and was just, I mean, I put him in bad days. Like, yeah, good summary. But he sort of said, we're making a lot of mistakes and it's quite hard to rectify it when it's not just one player.

25:17It's different players. There's no specific pattern. And I get the sense with them. And it's in a similar, like the opposite to kind of Brighton where you're in a really good patch and it can really carry you a long way. When you're in a bad run of form and confidence starts to go and then a player says something like, we've been a bit arrogant, that kind of negativity can take you the other way. can keep you down. Because there was interesting conversations and murmurings even at the end of last season. I remember speaking to kind of Sunderland fans I knew who were quite upset with some of the fan base who were like, Regis Lebris has taken us as far as we can go.

25:48What a brilliant season it was. We've got to be cutthroat. We've got to make a change. And so when that's already there in the background, when you finish as brilliantly as they did, when you then have this start, that's when it starts to potentially snowball and look a bit difficult for Regis Lebris. I didn't have a... Brian Brobby is out with a hamstring injury. Isidore wasn't available. They had a young striker, a young Ukrainian striker, playing. I think he made his debut just in midweek. He was on loan at Exeter last season. So there were issues there. So for me, coming in and watching how the game panned out, it's like, OK, this is just a write-off.

26:18But you can't keep doing that. Yeah, yeah. And Bournemouth as well. Good for them to get a win before they welcome AC Milan in the Europa League on Thursday. Hugely exciting for Bournemouth fans. Kit, you were at Craven Cottage to watch the Arbolowa must-win game. And they did. Just 1-0 against Hull. Tell us what you think, firstly, about Hull and the situation that Arbeloa finds himself in. Was he in buoyant mood afterwards? And then just give us a little taster of what your thoughts are on Hull. It was a narrow win on the scoreboard, but in every other sense, Fulham dominated Hull in this game.

26:50They had 76 % possession, Hull didn't have a shot on target. There was obviously a lot of anxiety in Craven Cottage as it was only 1-0. And that's been Fulham's problem this season. and they've dropped a lot of points from winning positions. They've conceded a lot of late goals. They did play well. I thought that Uwebe got the goal. Josh King, yet again, age 19. What a start. One of the contenders for young player of the year already. So, and the attack flowed pretty nicely. They've got Gonzalo Garcia up front, who's one of these three players that have come over from Real Madrid and also have the same agent as Arbla, which is an interesting wrinkle.

27:29Garcia, he's trying hard. It's a nice link-up play. He's not scored since the opening day, so they do still seem light on a goal score off Fulham. But this was a very good performance, and they could have easily won 3-0 and been in a much happier place. I think the fact they didn't, though, still means our blow is not quite totally safe now. It wasn't a commanding win. No. Ah, this makes sense. And going back to this Garcia and this issue of these players he's brought over from Real Madrid, It was a strange moment towards the end, like given Fulham a dominator in this game, it should have been really positive.

28:03He took off Garcia for I think the last sort of 10 minutes and brought on Cesar Palacios, who's another of these young players from Real Madrid and he's not really a striker. Although Arbola said he could play there after the match. They did have Rodrigo Meniz on the bench. Fulham ended the game without an actual striker. The fans are chanting for Rodrigo Meniz, at least one cry of, you don't know what you're doing to Arbola. It's like, goodness, If Hull do score here, which would have been ridiculous, but it's only one goal, then it would have been one or another of Arbola's substitutions. It hasn't worked.

28:36They've exceeded another late goal. And I think we could easily be talking about Arbola being very much on the brink today. But they've got the win. And when you haven't won so far this season as a new manager, that's all that matters. Do you want me to... But Hull, we were chatting about your thoughts after the game. You think me and Gregor and the lads got carried away? Well, there's just a growing theory with Hull. And we all love Hull. They've been brilliant. They got some probably excessive criticism before the start of the season. And they won those first two games. They beat United in the opening day.

29:09And it's like, what a story, Hull. We love Jekirovic. He's brilliant with his quotes. And yeah, nothing against Hull. However, it's no wins in five. They were awful against Fulham, Men against boys, as Jekirovic said, was an understatement. And you look at a table and you're like, hang on, Ipswich are the same points as them and have had half the hype as a newly provided team. So I'm just... So you want Ipswich to have more hype or Hull to have less hype? A little bit of both. Just bring it together. It feels like the Hull are really high and Ipswich have just been chugging along. So that's just all I'm...

29:45A humble observation. Measured football analysis in 2026. It will never, ever catch on. but really interesting takes from both those grounds. Just before we go to a break, I've got a quiz question before the quiz question. Who has created the most chances in the Premier League this season? Team or player? Player. Was it Pascal Gross? Nope, he is second on 19. Kiernan Dewsbury-Hall and Morgan Gibbs-White joint third on 17. Van Nielsen? Nope. Top of the shops, the flop of the century. Florian Wurtz of Liverpool with 20 chances created. the most the most I'm just saying I can only read the stats as they lie I'm only reading the stats as they lie I had quite a good performance against Brentford including making a goal the equaliser a good win at Brentford Gregor does it feel like Liverpool and Arboloha are starting to click or are you going to tell me that actually the red card for Brentford actually turned this game yeah I'd say the latter more look there are individuals who are giving you some you know cause for Octavius Munoz has been and a shining light amongst, you know.

30:52What a treat. He's act like, it's a great finish. Yeah. And, you know, he started to get a bit of momentum. And then there's this, even in an afternoon when Verts creates nine chances and you look at, as you say, the cold hard facts and you think that, still you watch him in the eye test and you think it doesn't feel like it's clicking, it's not going to work. Even Barkley obviously had a really positive midweek in the Champions League, scoring a hat trick, but, you know, missed a couple of good chances here. and kind of flared and deceived. So, like, I don't know. You still watch Iriola's team and you're not really...

31:27I don't think we're seeing anything like what he wants them to look like. You're not seeing... You don't think it's like... They're far too open. Like, when you think about Bournemouth at the best and how kind of ferocious they were and, like, there was no... There was no half measures. Everyone went... Everyone pressed together and I think Liverpool are still leaving big gaps. So, I think... I'm not sure. like I said at the start of the season I'm not sure they have the players really to to play that way and they're not really changing they're not there yet style wise I mean it took I mean it took Iola a while and I think they're mid-table for high turnovers at the moment so they're not this isn't what an Iola team looks like just a question of whether time will change that but as you say it's just the right profile of players see if they can keep the hype going in the Champions League this week and get another big win at home at Anfield let's take that break now with a quiz question about Tottenham v Coventry tonight Dejan Kulicewski is back for Spurs on the bench.

32:19Tom Olen has written a really interesting piece about just how long he's been out and all the different changes that have gone on at Tottenham. Kulisewski last played against Crystal Palace on the 11th of May, 2025. Palace won 2-0 that day. Who scored both their goals? Find out after the break.

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35:09Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clarke and I've got Gregor Robertson, Kit Shepard and Peter Rutzler with me in the studio. Some confused looks initially at the quiz question asking who had scored the two goals for Crystal Palace when they beat Tottenham the last time Dayland Kulicevsky played for Spurs. The answer was Peter Rutzler. Ezer. Eberichie. It's two and two, by the way. Ezer. I've told you before about Gregor. Don't wind him up about the quiz. He gets really, really bothered by it. But yes, Kulisevsky, how mad is that? I was doing, you know, looking at Pete's, sorry, looking at Tom's piece yesterday.

35:44And he'd written a really great piece about everything that happened. You know, you do research and asking the picture editor, find me the picture of when he last played. And there's Kulisevsky on the floor. The white hotline. Stood there, not quite that long ago. But stood next to him, Argei and Eza, in Palace shirts. That's how long ago it was. Absolutely mad. Had 526 days. Tottenham have had three different head coaches and signed 20 players. And they've never missed anyone more than Dejan Kulicevski's on the bench tonight. You can read Tom Allnut's report to see if he gets on or makes any difference for Tottenham in that big game against Coventry.

36:18Let's look at another team, another big team, who are struggling in the bottom half of the table. Manchester United getting a point at Ellen Road against Leeds. Charlotte Dunker was there for the Times and sent me these thoughts after the match. so I've just got in from Ellen Road where it was Leeds United won Manchester United won and both of the managers actually came out in their post-match press conferences and said they were happy with the performances from their side for two very different reasons let's start with Leeds they've obviously had a really positive start to the season I thought the performance especially against Arsenal for over an hour was absolutely exceptional I didn't think they quite hit those levels of performance against Manchester United there was lots of things for Daniel Farker to be happy about with his performance he said the only thing was a little bit disappointed was they weren't quite clinical enough in the final third after they got the equaliser they could have pushed and got a second but in fairness to Manchester United they stood strong and Leeds just couldn't find a second goal moving on to Manchester United it was interesting because Michael Carrick said he felt like this result could be a fresh start for them there was a lot of positivity being spoken about in terms of the performance but from my perspective from covering Manchester United a lot.

37:27If this is what we're talking about in terms of Manchester United being positive, they are 13th in the table. Let's put it in perspective. They're 13th in the table. They have won once in the Premier League. Of course, there is lots of positives to take from the performance when you compare it to the performance that we saw against Tottenham at Old Trafford, which was their last league game. But in the grand scheme of things, they're still really struggling in the league. They played well in the first half. There were slight tactical tweaks, which helps them out. We didn't see that space that we'd seen in the midfield, especially in that Tottenham game.

37:58So they have been learning in the last week. I thought I was in Madrid for the Atletico game. The performance there was improved. They still lost 2-0. The performance in the first half against Leeds was improved. They went in winning 1-0. They came out, simple defensive mistake from a corner and it's 1-1 and then they failed to score again. So I think it's interesting. It tells you a lot where this Manchester United team is because we're talking about progress, we're talking about positives, we're talking about them being happy. And like I say, they're 30 in the Premier League table. Obviously, the performance does take a bit of pressure off Michael Carrick.

38:31That is not the sort of performance that is going to get you the sack. The players showed that they're fighting him. There was fight there. There was a bit more intensity to the performance. But the problem with them is they can't seem to get over the line, especially going forward. They doesn't seem to have that cohesion in attack. So it's going to be interesting to see because it's another huge week for them. And they've got Koma away in the Champions League on Wednesday. And then they've got Bournemouth at home next weekend. And then before the international break, they go away to Chelsea. So they've got two huge gains if they want to push up into the top half of the table.

39:02So to be saying, talking about progress from Manchester United is pushing from the bottom to the top half, I think just shows where expectations are with this team at the moment. So, yeah, an interesting performance. A lot better from Manchester United's perspective from what we've seen from them in the league in recent weeks. I think from a Leeds perspective, they've just picked up where they left off. I don't think the levels were quite the same as what we saw at the Emirates, but certainly no cause for concern for them. I think they should be looking to push into those European places, especially if they can carry on the way they're going.

39:34But yeah, for Manchester United, there needs to be some serious improvement and it's going to be interesting to see what happens this week. It's always a circus with Manchester United, isn't there? So it's going to be interesting to see what happens this week and what happens after another round of Premier League fixtures. Greg, an interesting point there by Charlotte about both these managers being happy with a draw. I don't think Leeds fans would be too upset about Daniel Farke being happy with a draw, being behind, coming back, good atmosphere against the low rivals. What does it say about Manchester United and Michael Carrick, that Michael Carrick is coming out after this game talking about fresh starts and all the positivity of a one-all draw against Leeds?

40:11Well, as Charlotte says, that shows the position of Manchester United they're in. and he's probably right given everything that's gone on in the last week and the fact that everyone looked at this game going to Ellen Road you know a big rivalry and a Leeds team who were in this end and thought that Man Utd would lose and the pressure that would be heaped on them then so it's like it kind of it buys them a bit more time before we need to see we need to see a real reaction and a real kind of some evidence that they're going to turn things around I actually totally disagree about Leeds and being content It feels like Farc after Arsenal and after this game, it says a lot about how far we've come that you can set up a team afterwards.

40:52I don't know. In this game, it felt a bit like Leeds leaned slightly too much into making it a fierce battle. It was a bit mad. It went for kicking. When actually, they're a good enough team to beat Man United. It made for a great spectacle. It was like 90s football. It was a bit 90s FA Cup tie, wasn't it? Yeah. and look that made for a great spectacle as I say but I don't know where they leaned you saw at the start Ampadu just cleaning out you're like okay that's a marker but they kept up that physicality and that's a big part of what makes Leeds good but I don't know if it took away a little bit from what Leeds can do as well as a football team Do we think we overhyped Leeds?

41:32Kit you're in charge of the hype on us after your thoughts on that but yeah they're in seventh Gregor talking about Farker maybe thinking actually come on we're better than this and probably a lot of Leeds fans would have gone into this game against this Manchester United team at home and gone, we can and we should win this game. I think we were just about right on that. I don't think anyone's touting them for the European places or maybe not. Europe League places, I'm sure they could sneak into the Conference League given what Knife gets into these days. I think they know who they are. They're a very solid unit.

42:07They are a physical team and maybe they've been in a bit too much to the derby and the flying into tackles yesterday but they cross a lot there are a lot of big lads so I think they played sort of more or less to their level yesterday and probably so did United which to go back to what Charlotte was saying is a pretty concerning indictment of where they are as a club at the moment I don't know with you know with Manchester United whether they just needed a bit more of a positive spin this weekend after after the Atletico game where the spin afterwards very much wasn't from from lesandro martinez i don't know if that was that was in their mind at all in carrick's mind that we do need to be and end a difficult week with positivity does any does anyone have a feeling of sympathy that i have growing for michael carrick in this scenario just in terms of how he's approaching this situation as a as a former united legend great player who served the club and won everything with them he is at least i think not in a way that we as journalists would maybe appreciate because it doesn't make for great quotes or press conferences, but he is at least getting, I think, the tone and management, everything off the field with Manchester United in a difficult scenario.

43:19Right, I would say, which is something we've criticised. Eric Tenard kind of slightly lost it at the end and kind of started shouting off about everything. Ruben Amorim never had it. Whatever you want to say about tactics, and maybe we could bring that in because he did make changes with Tillemans' position. In terms of managing the Martinez situation, manage this scenario everything about his off-field comments he's really trying isn't he? Anyone else have any sympathy for him in this situation? I think that would be true if everything that happened before hadn't happened before like I think Man United fans now want to see a bit more I think some of them think he's a bit boring and monotone and dull and he's kind of they want to hear a bit more fire They'd like to hear some criticism They're sick of this yeah that's my that's my reading of it I kind of agree and I do feel sympathy for him because like most of his predecessors most of this isn't his fault this is the hand he's been dealt and I do think there's an element of United's fan base who want to hear a bit more of the story and tell the story of how he's going to turn it around and we're just hearing I think some thought he was overly positive after this game this is a positive fresh start talked about the best training session for ages before this game.

44:38But he's trying. He's trying. I'm curious. At what point do Man United do expectations shift at all and this becomes enormous? I know they're Man United. They're the biggest club in the country. But they are maybe what Liverpool were 15 years ago, what Arsenal were until they won the league or at least until Artest got them going a couple of years ago. They're a massive club that used to win things all the time. But now we're what? We're over a decade of them not coming close to a title, really. So you're saying Michael Carrick needs everyone to just accept that they're battling for the Europa League and that's battling for the Europa League.

45:12I know that's not what Man United fans are going to accept, but there's more than a decade of evidence now. This is what Man United are at the moment. I bring up those exams in a team in the past. Arsenal, they were always sort of in the top four. Maybe Liverpool's an instructive example when they had that long, long drought of Outer League and United aren't at 30 years yet. but enough times past now since United were one of the best teams in Europe to be to say they should have stand as more of like a top six team than a massive massive club Very interesting Man United Good luck getting the fans to accept that though Man United fans get in touch with me maybe you need a new reality or would you like to hear a little bit of punch from Michael Carrick Well yes go on I'm playing basically all of them Andre Santos Carlos Baleba and Yuri Tielemans Bruno Fernandes sort of Fernandes looks knackered in my book but I could be my very boring eye test but he looks fed up of it I mean could be fed up but he flew into a tackle early on that wasn't very A sensible and B very captain leader could have been in a different world a lot of people in the office watching it with me ooh you know it was an ooh moment but it was quite because it looked like Karik is looking at this going right I can see what everyone else is seeing here let's try something else and it seemed to work okay yeah Sandhook under labour legs the only issue is that you know Fernandes is playing off the left and is naturally going to drift in to be like so there's almost two 10s in behind.

46:38Dalo is offering the width as left back. So there's always a hole in the team. Whatever he tries to do, he's hamstrung slightly. If Dogu's available, that could suit him, I think. When you're requiring the width to come from... Until he has to defend. Right. Yeah. Next. It won't end the analysis of Manchester United because they've got a big game against Cesc Fabregas and Como in the week in the Champions League. Just before we come onto a team that don't have any Champions League distractions in Chelsea. I just wanted to mention how excited I am about Aston Villa. I watched their game with Newcastle.

47:09This was another one. Greg, you'd have loved it. Another 90s FA Cup tie. End-to-end, tackles flying in. I think Sven Botman is very lucky not to have been sent off in the first half. But really fun end-to-end game. I'm not as worried about Newcastle as a lot of other people. I just think it might take some time and they've lost some big players. But Aston Villa, guys, I am telling you. Nicholas Jackson, that's the striker everyone thought they were getting. Bayern Munich, Chelsea, just needs a manager who loves him and knows him in Unai Emery. And Mbaye, 18 years old, came off the bench. He's one of those amazing runners with the ball that is clearly so terrifying to defenders, Gregor.

47:44I don't know if you ever played in one like this. He knocks the ball a little bit too far ahead of him, but the defender seems so scared of the fact that he might nip past them that they don't go and close him down anyway. They're just like, OK, please don't. Very, very exciting times for Aston Villa as well. They've got Johan Manzambi, who, of course, got the goal. But as I say, let's talk about Chelsea. A big win for them and a clean sheet, Peter Rutzler. Paul Joyce was there for this one, beating Everton. But Martin Samuel has written on the Times website today talking about Chelsea's potential to be title challengers.

48:15And everything around the title comes with the caveat of we don't know what will happen with Manchester City, but Chelsea in fourth at the minute. 2-0 win at Everton is not necessarily the kind of resort you would imagine from this Xabi Alonso team a couple of weeks ago, is it? Oh, this Chelsea team. A really pretty poor record going to Everton. A team that's been accused of being quite weak at times. Yes. Having a very soft underbelly. Another feisty one this game as well. It was put to a long time before the game. It's like, are we going to see a team that's going to fight? You know, we're just not really associating Chelsea with doing that.

48:46And it was. It was a bit more comfortable. It was a bit more physical. The clean sheet's absolutely massive. It's 22 games, 33 hours. It's a stupid amount of time. and in the circumstances given Emi Martinez went off with a fractured jaw so he'll be out for at least four weeks Mike Penders came on and saw the game out so lots of positives kind of building on the previous week where you had Jordan Henderson and Jassero that midfield I think is pretty key I'm not jumping on the title train as you're probably not surprised to hear because I've been quite consistent I just they're going in the right direction I think there's a lot this isn't really I don't think yet what Alonso would like his team to look like so So I still think there's...

49:26And midfield is still vulnerable, I think. Yeah. Can I just ask you first on the goalkeeper then, Martinez out. They've got some big games coming up. Spurs at home. They've got Liverpool in the League Cup, which again is an opportunity for a trophy for any new manager. Then they've got Manchester United at home. So three big games against big opposition, whatever you think about those teams in their current form. Penders will be in goal for those games. What's the view of him in terms of his potential and how he'll step up into this challenge as a young goalkeeper? Well, there's been a lot of hype about Penders.

49:56There's been a lot of optimism at Chelsea about his potential. They signed him from Genk. He spent a season back on loan there and then last season went to Strasbourg. Did quite well. A lot of, because, you know, the debate about the keepers at Chelsea has been longstanding. And a lot of the counterpoint was always, we've got Mike Penders. If we buy a keeper, we're going to block the pathway. They threw that out the window in the summer. Obviously sent Sanchez on loan to Como. this season felt different because Penders is now in that group of goalkeepers you know the sense was if the keeper's going to struggle then maybe we can see how he does we're going to see how good he actually is he's a very tall keeper I think he he had a difficult game against Leeds in the Carabao Cup flapped at a few corners which was a bit concerning very good with his feet which is obviously so important these days so that's an unknown so again you know we've got a young keeper coming into the team with a defence that's really struggled this season.

50:55Yeah. That suggests we may see a few more bumps in the road and he is only 21, so I expect the same. You're not quite on the title hype train then. Same question as we had with Brighton then, but they should be finishing in the Champions League places to Chelsea, shouldn't they? Anything else would be a failure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And we think they should be good. And they're good enough. The attack is unbelievable. Yeah. The lack of European fixtures, again, we say with Brighton being in the Conference League, wouldn't harm them that much. But just not having to worry about that at all with Chelsea.

51:25We saw it with United last year, for instance, when you just have far fewer fixtures, it does seem to help. So I'd say top four minimum for Chelsea. Gregor, you've often been a Chelsea sceptic. This season, the Jad Bialonso arrival got you excited again. Where are you at now? Jordan Henderson's come in. He talked to Paul Joyce on the Times website about not giving up his England place and things, wanting to prove to people that he is a vital part of this team, not just for his hype off the pitch Yeah look I've seen some positive strides I've said this before I think when you watch Chelsea you see a team that look really well coached but there's still flaws and sometimes that's to do with individuals and they're running hot as well same as Brighton they've scored 17 goals and their XG is 9.9 but that's because there was lots of really good players who often perform the XG so I wouldn't read too much into that but I don't think they're going to challenge for the title I still think they're vulnerable defensively as Pete said the goalkeeper is a bit of an unknown just now yes Henderson and you know Kaysero's return and Henderson coming in and having a couple of really positive games has helped I still think there's questions in the centre of the park too yeah questions that we might be able to answer and keep that run going in those big fixtures to come we're talking about the title the strange title the strange title race that we have to caveat it with Manchester City top of the table seven wins from seven beating Ipswich at the Etihad 3-2.

52:50Arsenal followed it up with a pretty dire game but a 1-0 win. Mikel Arteta did not care. One bit a deflected Noni Madueke strike. Just wanted to ask you all firstly just to set the stall out before we maybe get into Arsenal a little bit more than City. Do we think this situation with City and the waiting that we're all doing, everyone in football is doing for the outcome of their appeal and then the subsequent punishment will affect Arsenal in any positive or negative way. I was just thinking about that game I was editing last night. You're thinking constantly, how do you frame this game? How do you frame what this means?

53:23They were nil-nil, Forest were in this game, they may be playing for a late winner. Arsenal get it. Are they going to be thinking, well, it's us against the chasing pack. City are going to be docked 50 points at some point this season, a minimum. Or does it add a little bit of extra pressure being the guys that everyone wants to keep City on their toes? Because if City just keep winning, it's only going to make this league look more of a farce, isn't it? I think it's too early in the season for it to have any effect on Arsenal. I think later in the season it could if this is still the reality.

53:53If Arsenal are playing, you know, are chasing City and City are looking in, you know, this imperious form, then it becomes, you know, a ball in play. But I think it's too early in the season for actually, if we're talking about how it's affecting Arsenal as a club and the players and the manager, I don't think it's going to have any effect at the moment. I don't think they have more pressure about trying to catch City, care what anyone else thinks they'll be focusing on themselves but when it becomes you know later in the season and the title race is a thing and the table really matters and we're still in this situation it could have an impact we talk about all the times don't we like the different psychology of leading and chasing yeah you know when we get to that point it is are we leading or are we chasing you know what I mean and that's what I mean if you're chasing a team that is waiting for some kind of punishment then you don't know what you're chasing do you or if you're chasing anyone It's too early.

54:44I mean, if you're Arsenal, you're looking at the issues now, right? I mean, they haven't scored from a set piece this season, which is a huge change when that was 40 % of their goals last year. Performances haven't been amazing yet. I mean, they're getting results and the cliché's rolled up. That's the performance of champions. It is. But I think we still need a bit more from Arsenal, I think. Couldn't have any more pressure than there was last season. We were six months going, oh, they're going to bottle it. They're going to bottle it again. So I still think that this was sort of the narrative going into the season, or really once they'd won the league, that that is such a massive monkey off Arteta and that team's backs will win the Premier League.

55:23So I think while winning the Premier League doesn't necessarily prepare for what's come with City, they are used to winning under pressure and are probably under less pressure than last season because they've got that one title in the bag. Pesky sports editors trying to concoct a different type of pressure for Mikel Arteta in Arsenal's field. But just finishing on them, because you've got Manchester City scoring goals, 19 in the league so far. Just a plethora of attacking talent all across the pitch. And Dye, oh, if that doesn't work, Semenyo, Doku, Foden, Cherki, all behind the best striker in the world.

55:55They are just going to keep at least scoring goals. Ipswich pegged them back twice in this game, of course, but only late on. Arsenal, on the other hand, just look like they're really struggling for creativity. Pete, you mentioned it, they've not scored from set pieces in the same way. this game won with a Maduweke strike Eza taken off at half time is this just early season struggling Mikel Arteta talked about the amount of players they had at the World Cup is that what it's down to or is it again looking at that summer and going why did you not sign an attacker yeah you could the last point you could definitely argue that or is this just Arsenal like everyone seems desperate for them to turn the page Arsenal 2.0 to become this free-flowing team well we all watched the charity shield we all thought it was coming exactly yeah we've seen glimpses of it but this is Arsenal's at their core this is this is their 18th 1-0 win since the start of last season like this is this is how they this is how they won the league really with a few more set play goals to make it easier for them to defend those leads so that's that's been an issue for them and yeah we still hear Arteta talking about finishers after every game and like yeah I don't know how sustainable that is either but again they did that last season so Adoveki came on and made the difference even if it got a deflection.

57:09I don't know. I think everyone's desperate to see a different Arsenal and I'm not sure it's going to happen. I mean, this game in isolation isn't all of a Glasner team, right? Very deep, low block. They did. No more than Gips White either. They're not going to punch you in the same way. So, there is always that aspect. The fact that they are continually getting over the line in these games is encouraging. It's something. Yeah, absolutely. Maybe we'll see a different type of Arsenal or maybe the perfect type of Arsenal against Bayern Munich in the Champions League, Harry Kane and the boys facing Arsenal in Germany on Wednesday.

57:41You can get that and the rest of the Champions League action on the Times website. We will leave it there for today's show. Gregor Robertson, Kit Shepard and Peter Rutzler, thank you very much for joining me. Gregor and I will be back with an EFL Extra show tomorrow and we'll be back with the regular show on Thursday. We'll see you then.

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