Can Spurs go down?

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Arsenal's lead at the top of the Premier League is back to five after they hit four against Tottenham in the game.

0:30fielder set a new record for premier league appearances joining me tom clark to discuss all that and much more we have the senior sports writer and sunday times colonist allison rudd the football reporter who covers clubs in the south of england with a particular focus on chelsea it's peter rutzler and the former footballer turned journalist gregor robertson it's here as usual do you see what i did with that intro there five four three two one didn't notice it no one noticed it just sat there waiting for them to speak about their big game Go on. No, no, that was it. That was all I did. I just thought you might be like, oh, that was quite clever, Tom.

1:00But anyway, never mind. Let's talk about North London derby. Alison, you were there. Yes. Arsenal responding after that draw against Wolves in the week. Did they play like champions here? They did. It's very easy to sound wise after the event. I did right before the game. This was a really good chance for Arsenal to get back their mojo and look like champions. Not elect, because mathematically they're not. But they did not look like a team that were worried about the run-in or about their own form or their own personality. They played proper football. So there's been a restraint to them in the games where they've dropped points.

1:39And you sort of feel, you know, no one's going to hand you a game in this division, mate. You've got to really work for it. So although Spurs were abject, Arsenal did work for it. And it could have easily been a bigger margin of victory. They weren't relying on set pieces. They were playing proper, attacking, clever football, crisp, passing, intuitive, proper patterns, a real team. You know, there were only two, you could say, drop points against Wolves. Biotr made two changes, both of which, especially the Eze one, brought in Eze to start. That man does not start as often as you might have guessed he might do.

2:19and it felt a bit like oh is he being a bit superstitious Arteta because he scored a hat trick against Spurs in November but it wasn't he obviously just thought you're going to enjoy yourself again so do it again and he didn't Eze looked more free and happy than he has done for a while he's given quite a lot of space by Tottenham at times I have to temper although Arsenal were fantastic I have to say I'm not generally seeing a team so you'd say okay, Arsenal drop points against the team at the bottom of the table. Oh, that's awful. But Wolves looked a much better team than Tottenham do. Yeah, I would agree.

2:57Having watched both those games from the Times offices. So I don't know how far I can say Arsenal look like champions. They did do everything they should do. They were away from home. They played very nice football. Any criticism would be one lapse of conversation. You didn't talk to me at all, Douglas. on laps in concentration from Declan Rice but he made up for it he's not one of those players it was quite funny I've got to say I've no reason to not really like Declan Rice I think he probably is one of those footballers that everyone really likes but it was quite funny watching him go come on lads focus keep calm and then immediately gives the ball away but did you not think it was inevitable that that was going to happen like Steven Gerrard and you know the slip thing it just goes straight to mind like I don't know what you think but surely that just puts the idea of making a mistake into a moment where you can say and it's just taking control of us.

3:47Well, you actually said that once, didn't you, in your career where you had a, you made a cock up with a back pass because you thought in your head, don't drop this short. And you did exactly that. It's psychology, I keep saying it. It's a very strange thing, phenomenon. Yeah, I said, not short. I remember mentally thinking, not short, as I tried to play a back pass and I played the back pass short. Something that was in my mind. It's like the, don't think of an elephant and then you think of an elephant. Exactly, exactly. Maybe that's what Declan Rice was doing when he was trying to play the ball out from the back.

4:14I'll comment, Alison, and you've summed it up very nicely there as you did in your match report as well on the Times website. We'll come on to Tottenham in just a second but Gregor, this performance was probably a big win for you and Tony Cascarino from last Thursday's show when we were having a bit of a ruckus about Arsenal's performance against Wolves. Do you agree with Alisson or are you in the more of the camp of well, they can only beat what's in front of them and it was 4-1, what more can you ask for? I have to lean for that most things can be true, Glaxon. That's all right. Because whatever you say, whatever the opposition, because the last opposition was the worst team in the league they dispelled doubts in this game a lot of doubts were aired again and the sort of as we spoke about the turmoil and the angst and everything was stirred up at once again so whoever they were they were playing in the next game and we had debated beforehand whether it was a good thing or not trying to be a North London derby away against a team with a new manager you have to despite how bad Tottenham were you have to throw all those things in the mix and say Arsenal answered a lot of questions in this game Which one do you think they answered the most strikingly of all the ones that were posed kind of in the last week you know have they got the temperament for it can they handle the pressure can they score enough goals what was the most kind of striking thing for you in this game What's their favourite film?

5:30Groundhog Day 4-1 again wasn't it Declan Rice never speaks to Alison Yeah yeah yeah Eze only scored against Tottenham The psychology of it because that's the thing we all know that's the thing that top of the pile that could hold Arsenal back and prevent them from winning the league. Everyone keeps saying it. They have the best team. They have the best squad. I think you ask anyone. Ask even some Man City fans and they'll probably agree with you on those things. Do they have the psychological strength and capacity and will and ability just to rise above all these doubts and questions that are going to keep getting thrown at them throughout the rest of the season for 10 more games?

6:11to keep producing the performances they need to win the title they blocked out the noise didn't they which is what we were worried that they wouldn't be able to do you could see Arteta afterwards is sort of the way how effusive he was he was like it's been a joy to be with these guys in the last 70 years to kind of we're talking about re-watching the Wolves game and it being horrible it was a mystery we don't know how we didn't win that game and so he was just immensely proud I think in the way they responded like yes we'll come on to Tottenham but that's all valid I'm really good for Everett Sheaze and Victor Jokeres, two players who probably haven't been at the forefront of everything in the last couple of months.

6:47Two good goals for Jokeres. Eze, of course, is now... So the record, the players he's now level with for scoring the North London derby is remarkable, isn't it? It's like, I think it's only Adebayor who's scored more. It's the same as Thierry Henry. Yeah, he's up there with Perez as well. That's some really big-name players, yeah. But, I mean, we'll come on to Tottenham, but even with the Jokeres, the two goals, great finishes. it's Palinho who's the closest one to him he's shuffled in at centre back for the first goal and then for the second one it's Archie Gray at wing back trying to deal with him I'm not trying to downplay it or anything I think Jokeres is an interesting point though and we keep saying we're going to come on to Tottenham so let's finish with Arsenal by talking about Victor Jokeres he has scored more goals in 2026 across all competitions than any other Premier League player 8-15 is he starting to look good?

7:37you know I thought about this game It's a big North London derby. You've said before, Greg, oh, look at the teams he scored against. And then you're like, oh yeah, but it's a North London derby. But then hang on a minute, everyone's saying Tottenham are crap. So is it the same thing? I was quite impressed with the way he took his goals. He's starting to kind of implement that kind of barreling style that he's got into the Premier League, shoving people off. Yeah, it's a very good point. He has looked lumbering. That's the thing. He's big. Yeah, but it's starting to look of strength. But the way he used his strength against Archie Gray, it was man against boys but that's what you want him to do so he didn't look lumbering yeah he looked dominant he looked like what's he going to take to defend against him so if he can keep that trajectory where the lumbering people slightly laughing at him being more of a championship looking striker than a Premier League looking striker if he can turn that on its head and make that physical strength count as he did in that goal then I think maybe he has turned a corner.

8:39He's turning it into a presence, right? Because you can look lumbering but if you have that presence and you make defenders think about what you're doing, your movement and your strength that changes how you're seen. I still don't think he's an elite centre forward. I think he's a good option for them because he's different and it makes defenders think in a different way about how Arsenal are setting up. But that can still be good enough, right? It is. I'm not saying it's not. Elite football level, I mean I know you cost a lot of money and we'll come on to that in a second with some comparisons but that could still be a good thing.

9:03Oh it is. If they've got Havertz fit which obviously they don't at the moment. Jesus, Gregor, thoughts on Jokeres overall? Still not convinced? Look, this was his best game. He had twice as many touches as his average over the course of the season. Completed twice as many passes. He was involved in play twice as much as he usually is. So it stands to reason that he looked more impressive. Spurs also playing three at the back and giving him space to run in those left channels, like plays into his hands. If you watch his goals back at Sporting Lisbon, almost all of them come from a ball in behind to that little channel and he either runs through and goal or he cuts back inside and lashes it in so Spurs played in his hands in that regard but also as Pete just alluded to the first goal was a shambles like it's ridiculous that I mean all Ezi had to do was make a run ahead of him to draw one defender out and no one stepped in and clearly Jaipolinha's not a central defender in the back three or any other shape and they just looked around each other so and then yeah Archie Gray was thrown off like that's Archie Gray he's an 18 19 year old or whatever he is not a wing back slight defender he's good he's got a great career ahead of him but I've seen him be dominated by other centre-halves and I still think when there's less space and like that's a challenge for anyone it's a challenge for Erling Haaland we had the same conversation about Erling Haaland and Man City how do you influence the game when there's so little space teams play a low block and there's no space are running behind how do you do it you've got to do it by being so crafty and like so instinctive in the box and still finding a way to influence and get those decisive touches when space does arrive so he's not been able to do that this season it's not all his fault it's also the way Arsenal have played and serviced them this game was completely different he'd love to play like play Spurs every week yeah I think a lot of people would and we will come on to Tottenham in just a second but just a final thing on perception we talk so much in the summer about strikers and club signing.

11:04This was the summer window of loads of strikers. And just talking about Jokeres, just wanted to look at the kind of the four biggest strikers moves that happened and who do we think has kind of got the best deal. Victor Jokeres signed for around 60 million pounds. He's 27 years old. He's got 15 goals in 36 games. Hugo Eketike, 79 million pounds, 23 years old, 16 in 38 games. João Pedro, around 60 million pounds, 24 years old, 14 in 36 games. So there's three strikers, all with roughly the same records. Benjamin Sesko,£74 million, 22 years old, seven goals in 22 games, so fewer games, but about the same kind of goal ratio.

11:43Who got the best deal? Liverpool. Yeah? And I'm not... I'm pretty sure you could probably do a deep dive analysis on their movement and minutes played and... So on. But with the eye test, Eketike brings more than that to the team. He's got personality. He arrived at a very difficult time for the club and he's given them a bit of joy. He integrated very quickly. That's priceless, I would say. Fans adore him. Teammates seem to enjoy playing with him. He's got an eye for goal, but he's also selfless. His link-up play is really good. He looks like someone who's going to blossom and become even better.

12:26His personality is astonishing. he's the only one who's exceeded expectations the rest haven't actually Jao Pedro Jao Pedro I think there's a case you can make a case for him we knew more about him he was clearly he came from another Premier League club it was a slightly different dynamic like the other two have struggled to meet expectations I think also it's interesting the age thing isn't it when you say there's five years between Sesco and Jokeras like I've seen things recently from Sesco that I'm like might be a player might be a Premier League striker I think probably the lesson from all of this is that you can't judge them too quickly they always rush the judgement and coming from a different league in the first place is hard when you're 22 it's even harder um and when you're coming like they've all had different challenges too like sesco's trying to put a dysfunctional team with a manager that's kind of i don't know willing to throw all of these players even including him under the bus like saying he's trying too hard and stuff like you know he's always found a way of undermining everyone we've just discussed Jokre was playing for his joining a team who play very differently and the opposition play very differently against them than he would be used to as well I think I agree with Alisson when you look at all of it it's Eketiki Eketiki he's got everything really he can drop deep in link play he can create a goal out of nothing and Alton's right the personality the sort of the feeling despite Alexander Isak's arrival despite everything going on around him he's willing to be the man who stands up and makes a difference he's made a big impact for Arnazla and I think in a very difficult season I think that also should be taken into account so I'm also inclined to agree I think with with João Pedro I think he's benefited particularly since Rosseña's come in he's looked a lot better he's playing as a nine he's being treated as a nine he's being asked to play with more intensity and when he does he's really really quite impressive the way he can link with Cole Palmer he's got the physicality the presence he can win the ball in the air he can score some really good goals so I wonder maybe in a year's time I think we might have a slightly different conversation because as you say if Sesco can get his feet under the table then maybe we'll have a different impression of him and I think one thing with Ekiteke I think he can be more clinical I think even against Forrest he's quite a good chance he missed an absolute sitter with that header and that's not the first time he's done that this season but I think in the context of Liverpool season he's interesting though isn't it when you just outline those numbers at this stage in the season and as you said Gregor about our quick to judgment and things it's fascinating maybe maybe they're all good signings after all but if you've got views on those four strikers get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk now we keep saying we are going to talk about Tottenham maybe Tottenham fans didn't want us to talk about Tottenham maybe they just want us to move on Alison this is another a worrying performance, wasn't it?

15:14There was so much thought, you know, as Gregor alluded to earlier, we debated, is this the perfect free hit for Igor Tudor? The first 10 minutes you were going, oh my God, this is going to be a disaster. They rallied in parts, but this is not a team that looks well-equipped to cope with what they've got to come, is it? Igor Tudor, he may as well have turned up wearing a Henry VIII costume, throwing chicken legs over his shoulder for all the impact he had, which seemed to be zero. The guy looked completely shell-shocked. He's won his first game of his last five clubs in charge. And it felt like in a flash you thought, oh, Spurs hierarchy have just gone for that.

15:58They've ticked the box. Oh, this is a guy who wins his first game. He has a new manager bounce. New manager bounce will save us. It's guaranteed. And we know the fans won't boo him. Oh, this will be fantastic. And the fans didn't boo him, but they were very quiet by the end because it was probably, well, it was as bad a performance as the 4-1 at the Emirates, but it was worse than a lot of other performances they would have seen. There have been better performances by Spurs than this one. There's no cohesion whatsoever. And I don't think if I pulled every player out for an interview in a room pretending to be Spurs HR.

16:40I would say they're deliberately not trying, but they seem scared. They seem scared of the strangeness of the situation. It is a strange situation. They are in one of the best stadiums they'll ever play in in their lives. It's built for Champions League football, which they know, you know, they know. Which they have got. We're in the Champions League, and we finish fourth in a rather peculiar ladder. but they're fourth. And yet, you just said, Tom, they rallied in stretches or something. In little parts. But they didn't rally as much as teams like West Ham and Forest and Wolves and Burnley have rallied in games.

17:25And you watch those teams play and you think, they're in danger. Obviously, Wolves are in massive danger. But even Wolves, when they get their act together, look better than Spurs do. Just a quick one before we come on to that bigger relegation picture. On the formation and system, I was discussing this with Tom Allnott, who was at the game with you, of course. We had a situation recently with Tottenham under Thomas Frank where he started with a back three against Manchester City, looked fairly lacking in cohesion, to use your phrase. Then he kind of made a change at half-time, went to a back four, which even though I think the central pairing was Paulina and Dragasin, was it, I think, in that game, they looked much improved.

18:04Igor Tudor's come in in slightly Ruben Amarim style. I play a back three. So we're playing a back three. You know, so we're playing a back three. It's not a lot of time to come in with a kind of big, bold style. And I mean, Tom Allnut said this to me on the phone. They've played a back three under Frank this season. They can do it. But to me, that was part of the problem looking at this game is that you had a lot of players going, hang on, wait, where am I supposed to? Oh, no, I'm supposed to be there. Oh, crap, that's Eze. Oh, I've missed him. You know, it looked very muddled. And I know it's early and I know it's quick.

18:33He's only had a couple of days, etc. And I think you could have put a lot of money on him playing a back three, whatever. Absolutely. I mean, I think he said in one of his pre-match presses that he was going to assess what he had in front of him before he did go with the back three. That's what's alarming. He was always going to go for a back three. He's come in and said, I'm going to assess what we have. You know, we've got this major injury crisis set up and the way that we'll work the team. The set up did not work with that team. We talked about it before, actually, great. We went back, Sarr on the other side.

19:00he's done for is it the first goal was it the second goal first goal with Saka going through him far too easily Paulina at centre back that really for me was probably one of the more concerning aspects from Tudor because he's not backed up what he's said he's just gone with what he knows and what he feels will be most secure and playing a back three and a five can feel like that but as you said we've seen them be quite effective in a four you can still be quite narrow and compact in two lines of four so we haven't really seen many attacking patterns of play from Tottenham all season. I don't think he's going to come in and do that.

19:36We think he'd come in and be quite aggressive, quite front-footed with the press. But if you're using a system in players that are out of position, it's going to be really hard to do that. It's going to be really hard to be man-on-man. And they really seem to struggle with that possession. You made an interesting point there. Is it, you said he's not going to come in and do that. We've not seen many attacking, much attacking force from Tottenham this season. you've got a situation now where suddenly we're going oh crikey they are right down the bottom and they've made a managerial change they've brought in a gun for hire who does this and saves people is there something about coming back to psychology again of where that might start getting in the players heads of rather than being a team that's way too good to go down they start going oh Christ we actually might go down and it becomes a self-perpetuating thing they were looking who's in the dugout we'll certainly be looking around and thinking that I mean clearly they have got a lengthy they've got loads of injuries absolutely loads Dan Soporo Kulisevsky Madison Bergwald Bentonkur Kudus like creaky that's a team and none of them are that like a couple will come back in March but that's the big issue like actually you don't quite look at the team or the squad and see where the where the uplift is coming where the where that kind of I don't know that spark is going to come from this is what he has and he was scathing afterwards it's not like he's someone who's going to massage their egos afterwards and said no no we worked hard and we've got a lot of work to do he said we've got a lot of work to do but he said we were worlds apart from Arsenal it was like they were saying that's the target we're aiming for these guys aren't they might know deep down that's the case 15th is what they're aiming for isn't it surely well they enter the season thinking at this stage the 15th and maybe a little run in the Champions League is what they're aiming for isn't it they've got to be 17th they finished 17th last season now yeah but I'm saying for him I'm agreeing with you I'm saying he's come in with these big manager chats like you're only here to the end of the season potentially or a bit longer like in reality like I just thought it was I thought it was surprising that he was quite so blunt about how far behind their closest biggest rivals this team are like not as a message to anyone except the players because the players will hear that and like for your first game for the manager to say you're not even in the same ballpark as this team that's like oof I felt he was protecting himself slightly as well he was saying you know we had a good training session you know we're good we're good coaches we know how to come into a club and assess players and take training and then you see the reality you see what's actually there what's actually there when they're playing and you're not coaching them because they're trying to do what you've asked them to do so it's got nothing to do with him how shit everything is yeah which is quite startling it's not helpful for the future but Gregor you make the point about showing kind of the realities of this game showing the realities of where Tottenham are and Martin Samuel's written the same kind of idea in his Monday morning column on the Times website they've got Fulham away next weekend then Crystal Palace at home Liverpool away then a big match against Nottingham Forest just before the international break they've got to pick up points you're mentioning that because before these players come back if they are actually in the relegation zone by that point it doesn't matter or like even just one point ahead of West Ham or something like you know I mean they're only four points ahead of West Ham now what am I talking about so difficult to come back into that environment no matter how good you are and it'll be so difficult Alison's right there's a whole psychological mismatch going on at Tottenham yeah should be a big team but they're not a big team the squad isn't good enough to be that I did point out in my match report that their penultimate game is at Stamford Bridge which immediately makes you think of the battle of the bridge in 2016 I mean Chelsea presumably at that point presumably will be fighting for a Champions League plays one would hope I wouldn't say it's guaranteed no but they probably but even if they're not even if they're safe and they know they've got Champions League football or even if they know they can't get Champions League football with two games to go they will be I mean you can imagine what that the atmosphere will be like if they can help send Spurs down that lecture has been circled just finally unlike their shape as well I actually don't know even if they're all fit who who's supposed to play in a back three for the first yeah that's what I mean because one of them has got to be Dragoos and that's not a good sign so and then the other one is like oh you're desperately hoping for Romero who's an empty head to come back so like if he's really the hell bent on playing a back three like there's bigger there's more at play than the shaping but just as a starting block a foundation for a new manager coming in that's the way we play it's another we're coming back to this again are managers really really looking at what they have at their disposal and like setting up the team accordingly or have they got With three months of the season to go.

24:22There is a squad thing as well, right? If this squad isn't going to take to Thomas Frank, are they going to take to Igor Tudor? I still have that image of Van Der Ven and Jed Spence for the way they treated Frank. And then you've got a new manager coming in trying to win them over. Same thing yesterday. There was a clip that I saw yesterday of Tudor screaming at Van Der Ven. Push up, push up. And Van Der Ven just kind of stood there. He had the captain's armband on and just kind of looking at him as if to say, all right, mate, whatever. And I mean, you might be saying I'm overdoing that, but that's not a good look, is it?

24:51You know, in a world where we can see everything, the captain looking at the brand new manager in a derby, telling him to push up and just standing there and going, fine, mate, yeah, sure, all right, yeah. He just does have the vibe as well of someone who will just like, you know, if he gets a whiff of that, you know, one too many times, he'll just chop you. That's it, you're out of the building. So, you know, this has the potential to be an absolute disaster. That was amazing. So this is the question that I want to finish with. And Tottenham fans, if you're listening, this comes with full backing from two of the staff members on the Times Sports Desk who are Tottenham fans who were just having a big heated debate as I came up to record this show.

25:26Can Tottenham go down? They are bad enough to go down. Yeah, they can because... Look at the form of the other teams. You mentioned it before. Even Wolves are playing well. They've got a bit of an identity. The last few games they've had really good passages. Forrest, brilliant in the first half against Liverpool. We'll probably talk about them. Most shots that Liverpool conceded in the first half since Stoke when they were 5-0 down with us more than a decade ago. They were really good. Brilliant against Finnebaccio. So they're alive. West Ham have looked like a different team since Lucas Paquitar has gone.

25:58Yeah, I mean, there are players in that squad that should mean that Tottenham do not go down. But if they're in a situation, if we get to March and they are firmly entrenched, that's so hard to rescue it. Psychologically, as much as anything. Worrying times for Tottenham Hotspur fans. Get in touch with me with your views. Tom.Clark at thetimes.co.uk. coming back to the title race. It was a good win for Manchester City. Just a couple of quick pointers on that one. Nico O 'Reilly, what a player he looks to be. Only one slight problem in a World Cup year with all this chat about, oh, he's got the left-back spot locked down, Gregor.

26:30If he then starts playing as a central midfielder, a 10, a striker, Thomas Tuchel might be on the phone to Pep and be like, could you just, could you just not, Pep, if that's all right? I know you like to do this with your young players. I know you're a creative manager. just stick him at left back for a run of 10 games will you? Gregor am I right? Am I wrong? Yeah no that to be honest I saw him putting his second goal that very thought went through my mind because he is as Paul Horst mentioned in his piece he's among the names for player of the year their player for Man City's player of the year he's been absolutely outstanding and he's got that remarkable record that Ian Whittle wrote about in his report today like his win percentage when he plays I think they've only lost one game or something Yeah he's that first name on the team sheet in a team that changes all the time he's mad so yeah is that an issue I mean it's less of an issue than someone not playing like you know Malzalus Kelly is not playing but mastering the position you know when you're like you know I've got this down I'm facing this kind of winger I'm facing this kind of midfielder if he spent five games you know marauding around midfield and then he's in a World Cup game well spent more than five games that's the thing I mean in the lead up but like that is a problem isn't it it's not ideal it's not ideal no but like England will have warm up games they also have you know they have a couple of games England have a warm up game where he just starts running around all over the place and Thomas Tuchel screaming go back there stop it stop it you're not wearing blue anymore but like yeah it's not ideal but he's he's England's best option now like Miles he's not playing enough football you think it won't matter where he plays he will be England's left back yeah people keep talking about Lewis Hall people keep talking about Lewis Hall but he's not looked at them properly yet and Luke Shaw if he stays fit I think it'll be those two players will go, I think.

28:16O 'Reilly and Shaw? I think they'll go, yeah. Luke Shaw will be stood on the touchline telling him how to be a left-back while Nico O 'Reilly runs all over the pitch. I've got it written down here, left-back is now feeder role, sorry Gregor. I just think it's quite interesting how... What a career he might have had though, Pete. You never know. If he'd have been allowed to roam all over the pitch under Pep Guardiola. What a thought. Sorry, Pete.

28:38But obviously just thinking about the way Bukayo Saka was introduced at Arsenal. It's a way to bring in these younger players maybe into these top teams I suppose has become put them at left back yeah absolutely he's been a beneficiary of like the changes at Man City as well the way that they changed changing the way they played because clearly when there were like four centre-halves which was happened for a couple of seasons he wasn't getting in the team that way and then there's more of an onus on the full-backs now to be like wingers yeah so as I mentioned a few weeks ago he has all the attributes like he's 6 foot 4 yeah he's rapid he's like I can't remember what I said but it was like clocked in the top 10 fastest players in the Premier League things that you don't actually you go he scores a lot of goals yeah and he's also great in tight areas despite being a big you know a big player a tall lad he's like he's really comfortable in tight spaces he gets the ball and he's not like panicked he's not rushed he's just I think he's really exciting yeah absolutely Pep Guardiola saying after this match Alisson that you know he's going to tell his players to celebrate with some cocktails don't worry about the title race Mikel Arteta shockingly wouldn't say what he was going to do with his players.

29:44How would we help players stay relaxed if they were in a title race? Maybe like a bit of group bonding, a bit of bowling maybe, maybe some darts, a bit of a night out. What do we reckon? Michelin-style restaurant where they pair the wine, where they pair the wine with eight courses. That's so chilled. Yeah, that is chilled. Quite expensive, but fitting for a footballer though. Pete, any good ideas? I was trying to think of some team bonding. When I covered Bournemouth a few years ago, Eddie Howe used to take Bournemouth after loads of wacky stuff. I think he took them clay pigeon shooting once.

30:11Yeah, nice. I don't know if that's relaxing maybe just get get used to the bangs some of the Tottenham maybe yeah maybe potentially Greg ever do any good team bonding exercises in your playing days loads yeah not many that can be like discussed on here but yeah we did go-kart until one lad got hit so violently that he did his neck and was out don't do any team bonding that will get you injured maybe that's why Pep comes back to a couple of martinis and old fashions just behind the top two Aston Villa dropping points in the draw against Leeds Villa have just won just one of their last four Premier League matches at Villa Park.

30:45Their title challenge probably tailoring or fading away. James Milner, of course, did play for Aston Villa. And we're going to use his amazing Premier League appearance record as a little quiz question going into the break. Sets the appearance record, James Milner, this weekend. 654 appearances. But for which of his six clubs did he play the most games? Find out after the break.

31:20Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Peter Rutzler, Alison Rudd and Gregor Robertson with me. Gregor, quite subdued on the answer to this question. We're all waiting for you to get the answer. It's producer Neil who came in with the answer. Did you? You said Newcastle first. No, he did. I said Newcastle. No, he did. No. That was such a petulant little point. I'm always told off for not making an effort I get it right you don't even give me credit we were having such a good laugh about Nico O 'Reilly and it's all gone to pot in the second half of the show Liverpool, Alison Rudd well done with the correct answer 230 of James Milner's 654 appearances were for Liverpool then Manchester City second with 147 then Villa with 100 head of Newcastle 94 Leeds 48 and Brighton 35 and it is Liverpool who we're going to talk about at the start of part two.

32:10A big win for them. A scrappy win at Nottingham Forest. Gregor Robertson, you were there. So the VAR technicians made sure there were lengthy delays whilst you checked some score. They were like, he's here, lads. Let's really wind him up with a couple of mad delays at the end of this game, which delayed his copy, ladies and gentlemen, unsurprisingly, arriving at the sports desk. I mean, it was quite an eventful last day. Yeah, yeah. We'll let you off. But overall, this game, did Liverpool deserve to win? Pete mentioned it in the first half. Forest were good. God, no. They were awful. they were woeful and I was like you're right in your piece like that's the first half got to be the worst worst of the season which the manager and then he just said yeah that was that was the worst half since I've been here basically they were shocking like the way they started they were so lethargic so like Jones Jones was obviously drafted in for Verts who was who was injured in the warm-up and he got caught in position like two or three times in the first few minutes and one of them Sangari was outstanding and played through Hudson-Odoi.

33:09They were nearly one up in the opening few minutes. And then it was just all one-way traffic. Kept trying to play out from the back and Forrest were pressing them relentlessly. And that combination of them being so off the pace and Forrest being really at it, despite having played in Europe 72 hours earlier. And getting a great win in Europe as well. Yeah. They were totally dominant. It was a mystery that they weren't at least one up in the first half. And then they gradually, kind of gradually improved in the second half but not like to any great extent still Forrest who were who were going for the winner and then the last just the last eight minutes were just bonkers the the could see Perra on the touchline kind of going one of those moments as a manager where it's at the end of the game and you can't touch it you can't do anything about it and you're just going no stop it stop it what are you doing yeah Rio Ngomua who came on for Salah did more in the 13 plus minutes on the pitch than Salah did in the whole entire game.

34:08Salah is getting close to a waste of space for most of the games. I thought that was the moments I've seen of him this season. There was a moment where he tried to run, I think, Nico Williams down the outside and Williams just put a little hand on his shoulder as if to say, sorry mate. And Salah just stopped running. Just stopped running and turned around as if to say, quite hard this game actually. The thing I have of watching the game and I had to remind myself that this was the case last season except he kept coming up he kept delivering the moments it was there were games I remember being at the first opening game last season Ipswich away and he did nothing and then I think he scored and set up got a goal and an assist in that game and it was like Salah's the main talking point of the story and that became the story of the season for him he's just completely non-existent there was one cut back for Jones it was across to the back post and he cut it back for Jones and nearly scored there was one moment in the first half where Murillo shanked a clearance to Sabozlai who'd been moved right back into midfield and he he thought he was going to shoot and he laid in Salah and Gakpo was standing at the back post waiting for the cross and he placed it high and over and you're like so yeah that's not that's not Liverpool's only issue but he is one of them but just while we're on it I mean Mo Salah at Liverpool next season or be amazed no be amazed why so just think can't do it anymore I mean he's got this two year contract he was on the throne remember I honestly think for everyone including a player despite how great we have to emphasise how great he has been for Liverpool and football for the Premier League there even comes a point for a player when there's a realisation that you're not hitting the standards and it comes quite kind of chastening actually you're like I'm not I'm not affecting these matches in the way I used to and you fight it for so long but if he keeps fighting it for the whole season and nothing changes then I think he'll want to leave too.

36:08There's also the assumption that everything's fine between him and Anna Slott now and that everything that's happened is water under a brish it's not going to be fine. No. So that could even be a factor in his form. You could make the case but the Africa Cup of Nations came at a great time and it was just pretending that that didn't happen. Off you go, come back, yeah. Nice to see you Moe, you bloody tusser. I can't believe you said that. Yeah. So you can make the case that maybe that relationship means his form's gone off and someone else might lift him. It wasn't there in the first place though.

36:35That's the point. Time to say bye, Alison. I can't. I can't. It's really hard. He's been so phenomenal. But surely you wouldn't want, to Gregor's point, you wouldn't want to see him stay and get even more worth, you know, even worse, even more ineffective having been so brilliant. Maybe Chabby Alonso will come in and have this remarkable resurgence. She's picking Mo over the manager who won them in the Premier League he is a ghost just standing there isn't he I suppose Xavi Alonso and that's the other thing is Farhano Slott's got to think about himself a little bit he's got to make sure they get Champions League maybe win a trophy show that there is a direction well yeah I mean although who's he going to play like Ingemore Ingemore maybe yeah it's getting to that point but he's 17 yeah I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a chance because he was brilliant when he came on just making things He's always brilliant when he comes on.

37:32He did it against Newcastle in the season, didn't he? I mean, very young and still very young. Yeah, there's moments where he's raw and that's going to be the case, but I think we'll see him get more and more game time. Sticks a Bosley on the right wing. He's played everywhere else. So anyway, he catalyzed the chaos, basically, when he skipped the byline, crossed it up for Eketiki. I don't know how he didn't score. And yeah, that was just absolute madness. And, you know, come on, what do we think about the handball? I know McAllister came out and said yeah it hit my hand but still this is the very I know it's again we're talking about the letter of the law as if that is everything but do you not I slightly think with the letter of the law on this one the idea of scoring a goal with any part of your arm or hand in any way shouldn't be allowed like even in this way which is probably the only the best way you could score a goal with your arm in the least offensive way would be with your back turned and with your arm tucked in there you go Like, that's about it.

38:28But even then, every other way would be like, ah, that's handball, that's an arm. Even if the ball really hit more of his back than his arm too. I'm not saying, I'm saying that... And the ball hit him. He wasn't trying to do anything. But the premise that I often take your point about the letters of the law and the laws being stupid, but I think the law on this one, it's like having a blanket law of, if it hits your hand or your arm, it can't be a goal, lads. It's football. Alison? Well, I suppose so. But it does make football seem a bit ludicrous. These things happen. The ball is whacked against you and it goes in.

39:04There's definitely lots of things that make football seem ludicrous these days. No one's trying to cheat. I'm more okay with it. I'll get back to some other things. But I think, yeah, I'm okay with it. 2-2. 2-2 on that one. We've talked about Liverpool. But the question is, and Gregor was there, so I really want to know what he thinks about this, which is, it was Liverpool's worst performance under slot. And he said so. Half, yeah. Worst half. Half. Okay, worst half. It wasn't far off. Worst half. And so the question is, why? Do you think it was because they thought they had Sir Bosley in an attacking role?

39:43And that was taken away from them when Wurtz got injured. And so there was a sort of dip in morale, like, oh, he's playing right back here. I don't fancy that. But also, Wurtz being injured. So Bosley got moved to right back So Bosley was always playing right back Virts would have been in midfield Then Jones came in in midfield But they changed them And then they swapped them Jones went to right back And So Bosley came in to midfield So why do you think What happened? But Virts being injured There's also an issue about this whole thing It's true that So Bosley is their only kind of stand out He's a talisman Don't you think they prefer him to be in attack?

40:19Yeah that's why he moved him in Because he said we're losing every ball we had no control whatsoever that's why they moved them into midfield but it worked in the end like we should say the moment that won the game was an extraordinary moment of composure when you're on the edge of the box not even the edge of the box like 40 yards from goal basically the last man everyone's in the box and he's confronted I think it was Dominguez and instead of just hurling it in he's kind of chopped and then chopped again just to create that space and then he can just feeding a delicious like perfect cross that composure in that in that moment under pressure is like elite and that that more than anything actually I think was the was the the action that won them the game because the the cross in was so hard to deal with Van Dijk wasn't really even trying to score he's kind of just trying to keep it in before he scramble it off the line and McAllister's the one on the spot so that moment of composure is what really won Liverpool the game so he's always he's always the one who's stepping up to help them win games.

41:24And it's a lot praised the fact that they were throwing their bodies on the line, they're defending, they didn't concede. And there were moments, Van Dijk made a great tackle in the first half, kind of recovery tackle in Igor Jesus. There were a lot of blocks, but crikey, they don't want to be living like that. Because it just seems weird that they're actually firmly in the race for the Champions League, because they've been awful. Well, we'll bring that back in in just a second when we talk about Chelsea. But coming back to Forrest and that relegation battle, then having spoken about Tottenham, West Ham felt like a missed opportunity, as good as it was to get a clean sheet for Nuno Espirito Santo, not getting a win against Bournemouth, drawing their game.

41:58Leeds as well, pegged back late on, as I mentioned, by Aston Villa. Wolves, as much as they looked good against Arsenal with that draw, missing out on the opportunity to get points against Palace, losing that game. So we've got Wolves, Wolves bottom of the table, 10 points, they look almost certainly dead and buried. Then Burnley, 19, getting a point at Chelsea, which we'll talk about in just a second. West Ham, 25, Forest, 27, Tottenham, 29, Leeds, 31. do Tottenham start coming back into it when we're talking about these other teams? Boris, Gregor, do you think there was enough in this game? You've said it many times under different managers.

42:30You said it under Sean Dyche, I think they'll be all right, and then they looked a bit bad. Vito Pereira's got until a couple of months and see if he can turn it around and get the new manager bounce. Well, he clearly lifted them. He's given them, it looks from the two games, the Fenerbahce game, which was probably their best performance of the whole season, 3-0 away in Istanbul. That's no mean feat. it looks like he's given them, he's managed to get some confidence into the players. He's reminded them of what made them so successful last season. How long that lasts, you know, is anyone's guess.

43:03But I think, I think, I honestly don't know. I think Forrest should be good enough, like should have enough. Are we getting to a point where it's between Tottenham and West Ham? Is that what we're saying? Do you think Leeds are okay? Leeds will be fine. I think Leeds will be fine. just to say as well a quick start on Leeds they've already got more as many Premier League points sorry this season with 31 as they did in their last season in the competition when they went down so they're already there's a confidence about the group now the way they're playing there's a really good run of form so Leeds are fine for a while I watched West Ham Bournemouth and they were again they looked like they're they're revitalised they've got something like Bournemouth had big spells in the game what you also said about West Ham a clean sheet it's a clean sheet you said about how the bag of defences De Sasse's made a difference like he's you know it's a shame Gary wrote this morning Gary Jacob it's a shame they couldn't have got him earlier in January yeah they look more solid and they now have a real threat and they're getting the most from Somerville and Bowen as kind of out and out wingers and Castellanos is like a focal point and Lucas Lucas Paqueta moving on has meant Mateus Fernandes has really stepped up and he's like really creative ball so like industrious in midfield so they've got a good balance and shape to them so yeah it's just that they have that deficit to make up like it's wither and they've got a tough run of fixtures now I think they play Liverpool and Man City in the next few weeks like you feel like Spurs are more likely to be drawn in than Forrest really interesting we'll see what happens at the bottom of the table in the coming weeks as I mentioned there Wolves losing against Crystal Palace a good win for Oliver Glasner Alison I'm just wondering what kind of support your new charity for underperforming and slightly irritating managers this season who we did love last season and now most of us don't like them again.

44:56What kind of support are you going to offer to Oliver Glasner after his latest nonsense rants? I've had enough, Alison. I've had enough. You've had enough? Friday afternoon, he's moaning again. Then after this game, he slightly backtracks. Sounded like he's asking to be sacked, which is the new trend for managers this season. You know, I want to be sacked. I want the payoff. I want to preserve my reputation. Come out, have a moan. Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough. and then, oh, no, wait, I still actually have to do my job, which I'm paid millions of pounds for, get a win. And then yesterday, discussing it with James Geerbrandt, a slightly baffling press conference where he both doubles down on his latest comments and about having a go at the fans, staying humble, but also says, you know, honestly, I say this to my kids all the time as well.

45:39I mean, shut up and just do your job. I mean, I've had enough. Really, I think we're in the wrong business. If we want managers to shut up, we rely on managers not shutting up, don't we? Actually, I don't think anything he says is inaccurate. You might say he shouldn't be saying it, but he's quite right. He has brought... It's not in any way helpful to Palace. He has brought Crystal Palace their best ever in their entire history moments. And they could have another. They could have another 12th again who gives us stuff. And he feels that should be rewarded and it wasn't. So I have no problem with him saying what he wants to say at all.

46:10I don't quite understand the comments he's making at this point. Yes, Pete, back him again. He's already said he's leaving. The relationship between him and the fans is pretty ruptured. That's the one, surely, Alison, on the fan point. Like, fair enough, if you want to have a go at the board for not backing you, but the fan point, you know, he could finish this season 12th again. Yeah, sorry, Pete, I've interrupted you. But it's the fan point that I don't understand. Yeah, I think just even stay humble. I mean, you know, it was a club that nearly went out of business, wasn't it, in 2010. I think I saw Darren Ambrose quite impassionately talking about why that's really going to rub up the supporters the wrong way.

46:46and it doesn't need to do it. We all know that there's been a disconnect. We know that there's been an issue in terms of how he feels the team have not moved on since qualifying for Europe and winning the Cup. Try and make the most of the end of the season. You're still in Europe, could still win Europe in competition. That's what I'm saying. They could win another trophy and it'll be the most amazing short spell as a manager ever and he goes off into sunset. He doesn't believe he can because he hasn't got depth of squad to juggle. But surely you're in it now. You've gone through the January window.

47:14You've got the squad now and they did sign some players. Fair enough. You might not be like Strand Larsson's good enough but he scored a few goals like they've bolstered the squad. Surely just lock in now and be like, all right, I'm going to stop having a pop at everyone. I'm going to lock in now to the end of the season. Oh, come on. Just imagine you did what he did. Just imagine you did what Oliver Glasner did. And if imagine I had the chance to do it again. You don't know. That's the point. He wasn't... Look, there are parts of it. It's all mad. He shouldn't be saying what he's saying but I understand with Alisson.

47:44I totally understand why he feels it because the club haven't like been able to regenerate the squad or to add to it when they knew they were going to have far more commitments and you know a lot more games a season in Europe and what not and they knew that Gay and Ezi were going to go and yet they fought it or they left it to the last minute and they didn't have a replacement lined up like how are you then falling out with the fans the fans would agree with him entirely it's not all the fans is it no it's not all of the fans but I just maybe the fans are falling out with him because of the way he's fallen out with the club, really, more than anything.

48:19I don't know. I think he's handling it in an odd way. But anyway, Crystal Palace fans, maybe you can get in touch and clear it up for us, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Palace are in 13th, just ahead of him. Sunderland having a bad run, three defeats on the spin, losing at home to Fulham. The one good thing Sunderland did, and if you've not seen it, Dan Ballard wins the best penalty from a position where you shouldn't win a penalty ever, I think. Ball dropping, box off the ball of the centre-back, you're thinking, right, he's going to do the spin and kick it off the player and get a corner. That'll be pretty good.

48:49Not that. He rolls his man and gets brought down for a penalty. Absolutely fantastic from one of the players of the season. Another quick mention for a man on the opposite side, Raul Jimenez. I listed those stats from those strikers, the big spending strikers in the first half of the show. He cost Fulham about five million quid. 30 goals in 100 appearances. We're a big fan of Raul Jimenez. I love him. I love him. I interviewed him. And I mean, the guy's bravery, he fractured his skull, you know, and yet he's one of the bravest strikers in the air you'll come across. And he's always wearing that protector so you can never forget that he did this as a bloke who fractured his skull.

49:29And he said, I said, I don't know how you do it. I don't know how you go up and you don't mind if there's a clash of heads. You don't seem to mind. He says, I have no memory of the accident. So I'm not scared. I have no post-traumatic stress. I just do what I always do. And he's a sunny individual. He's not one of those... I mean, he's still rotated and he doesn't give his manager any problems at all. He's a proper, proper team player. Record penalty converter in the Premier League, isn't he? 13 out of 13. Yeah, he never looks like he's going to miss, does he, when he drops up? They signed him when Mitrovic was still there.

50:05I don't think he was signed to be a Mitrovic replacement. No, he's one of those players too that you kind of wonder what might have been for him. When he was scoring all the goals at Wolves before that injury, he was being linked with bigger teams. I think he could have played at a higher echelon, but still a great goal scorer. Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about Chelsea. We mentioned them a couple of times in the show already. Dropping points again, Pete, you were there. They've dropped 17 points from winning positions at home this season. The last time they dropped more points with 95-96, which says a lot about what a fortress Stamford Bridge has been.

50:42Cole Palmer was back. Everyone puts him in their fantasy football team like I did. And they draw one all at home against Burnley. Another sending off as well. It sums up this messy season for Chelsea. Can you just cut from the last time I was on? Use that and just change my rescue to Rosseña and we'll go from there. It's the same story with them. And the fact that the manager has changed and we're still seeing a team that when it plays in games, they should be winning. they just become complacent there's a real soft underbelly because they were 1-0 up, it's a great start they weren't playing, but they went 1-0 up and it's like right, they could run away with this clean it up, sort it out, 3-4-0 easy does it real lack of intensity real lack of tempo there's clearly quality within the group even though they rotate as much as they do there's a lot of technical quality among those players I could see Greggel smiling at me because I know what he's going to say so I'm going to leave the experience and the age thing to him.

51:39I was going to say that. I was going to say, you think there should be for one and a half billion. Oh, that's the other one. I need a little ding. Some piles in on the money spent at Chelsea. Correctly. But this is the point, right? The manager's changed and they haven't beaten a newly promoted team at home. They threw away two goal leads against Leeds in the same way. I'm not mentioning the indiscipline thing because that says its own story but this is purely about the performances in these games where they just drop off. The place you look is the squad and the way they built the squad and therefore those who have built the squad because this is the fourth season of the new ownership.

52:20They've spent 1.4 billion, as Gregor smilingly mentions. The sporting director has overseen most of this investment. So Rosseña's got to try and solve this issue. And he was pretty firm after the game saying it's not good enough. And, you know, obviously the equalizer, he goes for the marker, the unnamed marker, who I think is Andre Santos or Joshua Champon, judging from the videos, saying that an assignment was not done. Greg was desperate to jump in. I'm going to keep going. But he also said, because I said, this is a mindset thing, which I feel like I've asked four or five times. And then he points out four games, Palace Wolves Leeds and Burnley he's only done six league games and he's can recognise he's got a lack of concentration good result like good record overall he has but it's been a good start you'd expect them to pick up the points in these games we're seeing the same pattern basically this is the thing that they need to resolve if they want to make their step up but the fixtures now get tougher but the thing is they'll probably be quite good in those and they'll beat Aston Villa and they'll beat Arsenal and then we'll say ah ah Chelsea fantastic Santos Santos blocked a cross to concede the corner and started celebrating to the crowd.

53:39Oh, he's off. He's off. No, no. But let's see, when Arsenal yesterday, Raya Claus went off the line. Okay, I'll give you that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's celebrating like this. Jorah Jato comes over, high fives him. The next minute, he forgets to mark his man and he heads it in. He's still got a corner to defend. What are you doing? I've actually got another one from the game, which I know, in the first half, Malo Gusto breaks into the box and there's two men in the box. I don't know, I think one's Jao Pedro. And he does a no-look cross from the left. And it's one of those weird ones. If you're doing a no-look cross, the no-look cross is the idea is that you look at another player when you play the pass, but he's looking at the stand.

54:16Looking at nothing. Reading a newspaper. Someone's eating something. Oh, can I have a Haribo? These are really small things. And, you know, I don't normally, but in the context of what we're seeing, I'm talking about the team's character, staying in these games and intensity and taking these games as seriously as you can. Those kind of things really undermine it. But Rosimia took off Rhys James. Yes, but you could see Rhys James was stretching and that was quite a last-ditch thing. Where you could see, Josh Schammer not risking Rhys James if he's... Just wrapping up then on Chelsea, then we summed up a lot of their problems this season.

54:49You've got Chelsea in fourth, 45 points. Manchester United, who play Everton tonight, also on 45 points. Liverpool in sixth, also on 45. Who finishes fourth? Just one word. Silence. United. United. United. Goodness me, that's all set up for an Everton victory tonight, isn't it? Paul Joyce will be reporting on that for the Times website. Let's just finish with a quick bit of praise for James Milner. And Fabian Hertzler, by the way. Another win for him as Brighton manager under pressure, but getting a win at Brentford, the hardest thing to do in the Premier League, as we say on this podcast. 40 years old, James Milner.

55:22Gregor, as a former professional yourself, how hard is it that he's to do that? what he's done to be playing at this level at 40 it's astonishing isn't it well yeah I mean all I can say is that's like get on for twice as many games as I played and 80 years longer than I managed to continue playing as well and I found it quite hard in the time I was playing to kind of play you know 30 odd games a season or whatever and he's just he's played he's managed to do it for 24 years now yeah it's extraordinary extraordinary and it's about it's like the biggest thing is his mentality the way that he's always like just everywhere he's gone being the the best professional in the building the first one in the one who works the hardest the one who's always the fittest the one who everyone just looks to and sees an example and I think he was that from the very beginning so incredible achievement absolutely congratulations to James Milner we'll leave it there Peter Rutzler Alison Rudd and Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me on today's show we'll be back on Thursday we'll see you then