Chelsea and Arsenal fight it out and Salah dropped

0:28Welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. 36-day wait for a Premier League away win came to an end in style as they thumped Everton 4-1 on Merseyside. And Thomas Frank called out Spurs fans for booing their own goalkeeper after another painful defeat at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium. We'll be discussing all of that as well as big wins for Brentford, Brighton, Manchester City, Aston Villa and Sunderland and much, much more. I'm Gregor Robertson and joining me in the studio today we have The Times senior sports writer Alison Rudd, The Times London football reporter Tom Allnut And joining us down the line from the North East We have the Times Northern football reporter Martin Hardy Guys, lots of action to get stuck into from this weekend So let's get straight to it Chelsea 1, Arsenal 1 First versus second Feisty London derby 25 fouls 7 bookings 3 in the opening 12 minutes Red card from Moises Caicedo in the 38th minute What was the biggest takeaway?

1:24Alison Chelsea shouldn't be ruled out of a title race. I mean, before a ball was kicked, I felt that they had a chance to do something. And who knows if Caicedo hadn't been sent off towards the end of the first half, they might well have done. And you wrote about that in your Sunday Times call list. I did. You modestly overlooked that. I did predict that. I did predict that, people. But give, I mean, actually, this is quite an astonishing result, I think, because Caicedo is so important to Chelsea. He's like your Angolo Kante. He's like two players on the pitch. He gives the creative players the space to do stuff.

2:02Fernandes is someone, I think, who you could just, if you wanted to make the argument, say he was a luxury player. But with Caicedo there, he's allowed that sort of freedom. So he has most assists and most goals for the team because he's allowed to be that player, sort of Frank Lampard-style arriving in the box player because of the work that Caicedo does. So for Chelsea to lose Caicedo to a very poor challenge, I feel like the sendings off and discipline and youth have been issues for Chelsea in the past, but they absorbed the sending off and sort of doubled down on their feistiness, if you like, and so were aggressive while also being mature.

2:49They were helped by the fact that Rhys James was able to stay on the pitch through fitness. And I think that's another significant factor for Chelsea because Rhys James, I think, since he broke through into the first team, has consistently been one of the top three players for the club. He's hugely popular, hugely influential, but his problem has been fitness. So he either can't play because he's not fit or he looks like a player who's worried he's going to get injured. But he's been managed really well so that his minutes have been managed this season and you sort of feel they've got an understanding of what he needs physically and he believes them so that when he does play, he now plays a bit more wholeheartedly.

3:33So you've got him in midfield, which isn't his favourite position, but he's been there before and he's always able to do it and he absorbed that loss of Caicedo. So I think it was near miraculous. This Arsenal team that everyone's gushing about were inhibited by what Chelsea offered them on the afternoon. And I think there are definite signs there because the other factor, to quickly say, Chelsea are the youngest team in the Premier League and that can give you naivety and a lack of knowledge of how to win. But on the flip side, it takes all the pressure off. it means it's a free hit for them if they want to go for the title their manager plays it down and I think they've got enough flair and solidity and aggression like if you had to pick one full back who would you pick for your team you'd pick Cucurello wouldn't you I mean you would you just would so I think they've got most of the pieces to at least at least annoy Arsenal as we approach you know the months to come Marifka came closer to saying that they're in the title race didn't he Tom closer than he's ever come before he said wait till you know February time and we'll see where we are then but what do you think do you think they're in the race mature wasn't it you know kind of yeah I was really impressed by Chelsea it was such a shame that Kai Selle got sent off wasn't it I felt because it ruined the game I mean it didn't ruin the game but I just thought it was such a great contest that first kind of half an hour and Chelsea were the better team you know 11v11 they were winning the ball really high up they were nicking it off Arsenal two or three times Esteval had a couple of really good opportunities down the right, which he just didn't quite get right with the final end product.

5:18They look really kind of complete at the moment, you know, and I think that's, we haven't said that about Chelsea in the last kind of two or three years where we've often seen glimpses of good players sort of trying to find combinations and find connections. But I think what you can say about Maresca is you look through the team now and there are lots of players who are playing really well, you know, and I know that's a basic thing to say, but ultimately that's the coach's job is to get people playing better than they were before and Neto is in great form. Enzo is in great form in a different position.

5:46Esteval has obviously suddenly emerged. Rhys James, I agree with Alisson. I thought he was fantastic in this game in a relatively new position. Perhaps they put him there to kind of protect his hamstrings a bit as well, you know, rather than the kind of lung busting runs up the flank. Kaiseido we've talked about, Kukurea, I agree. Chalabar. Chalabar, fantastic. You know, and that's, I think, been the kind of weak point in this sort of Chelsea team as a defence, partly because of injuries. But all the way through, there are players who who are, I don't know about over-performing because they're good players and we shouldn't forget that.

6:13They're expensive players. This is an expensive squad. But I think Maresca is getting the best out of them at the moment. I think that's impressive. Title challengers, I don't know. I still think that Arsenal and City are a step ahead. I do think that. But I also think Chelsea are kind of in that in-between. I think they're a better team than Aston Villa and Manchester United and Tottenham and Newcastle. You know, they're almost a little bracket of their own, between the challengers and maybe the kind of Champions League contenders. Martin, what do you think? or Chelsea? Have Chelsea got enough to challenge Arsenal?

6:45Probably not. I don't think perhaps we have a great team in the Premier League this season. I think Arsenal are the best team and if they don't win it this season, you think, will they ever win it? The two elements, one was I heard Joe Cole talking this morning and he'd been to the match yesterday with his two sons and has a fair amount of knowledge of what a centre midfielder being fit and he used a really important phrase I think about, just referencing Tom there, about Rhys James being injured. And he said he looks free. He looks free of any of the problems. And I think Ali said there, they've managed him very well.

7:18He's an extraordinary player. Chelsea can keep him fit and then England can keep him fit. So to use that power and physique in a more advanced role in midfield was interesting from Maresca. The one thing I would say is that does look like Arsenal light yesterday. No Gabriel, no Saliba. Odegaard will always be a big miss, even if he has had problems. Jacques Garez, Havertz or Gabriel Jesus doesn't start up front. So that's a spine of a team, which is... And the one thing Arsenal are doing, which the other teams aren't doing, is they're not losing, which gives them the feel of the champions. They've lost once this season.

7:54Everybody else, I think, has lost three or four times. I'm not sure if I said this before. A couple of years ago, Arsenal played at St James' Park in a night game and Odegaard was flattened by a really, really hard challenge by Sandra Tonali and it hurt him. It was just in front of the dugout, very near the press box. And Arteta ran over to Odegaard, who was clearly in pain, kind of grabbed him by the arm as his captain was dragging him back in that pitch. And Odegaard was kind of saying to him, look, I'm sore. What Arteta, I think, has been trying to build, which came out yesterday, was that fight inside of his squad, which is you might be missing a lot of big players.

8:33Come to a really upford Stamford Bridge with a Chelsea team that's starting to go in confidence. can you physically stand up to potentially being a little bit bullied? And I think they did that. As I said, they are getting stronger. They are massive players to miss, by the way. You're talking about what was perceived to be the best central defensive partnership in the Premier League, a brilliant flair player, and you're still playing with a centre midfielder, a centre forward. And the games when I watch, and I interviewed Cal Nourinho a few years ago when he was in Newcastle, really nice bloke, he still gets smashed in challenges in a way that midfielders do not like and in a way that centre-forward, to a natural centre-forward, to come to accept.

9:12But it's the context of the week for Arsenal to beat Tottenham, to beat Bayern Munich and to then stand up to Chelsea, I think is probably the reason why Arteta was so happy once the dust had settled. So what did we make of Guy Sato's tackle? Was it a clear red card? A red card, a red card, red card. Yeah, it was a red card. I don't know if two people had done it. Even Mareska said it was a red card. yeah but you know a few people were talking about you saw it in real time and you didn't immediately think that's a red card Martin Samuel's written this morning he didn't think it was a red card do you think it was a red card I see so many tackles this season especially from full backs clattering into wingers and they get free hits was it let me think so it should be Martin Liverpool yeah it's a defenders game journalists are defenders co-commentators are defenders it's like let's let's kick the you know what out of the players everybody's come to watch Caicedo plays right on the edge you don't really realise how good he is until you actually go to a live game and you see how commanding his physical presence is.

10:12But if you step over the line, players these days just clatter into each other's ankles and their boots are so flimsy. You see the players with bruised feet afterwards. I thought it was an awful challenge and the red card was the correct decision all day. They always make it look bad, the replays. To be fair, they did it in real time first. They did it a few times, yeah. a few times you can't see that you know it's hard to tee it's hard to but then they do that thing where they kind of go forward back forward back you know and that sort of like push and pull of the of the foot going in on the ankle and planting in just always looked bad I mean when I saw it I thought it's a red and to be fair I think Kaisada in that first 20 minutes he compounded the whole situation he made me angry by lying around on the floor pretend he'd been hurt that just frustrated me as well so he'd pushed Marino earlier too hadn't he when he was kind of trying to get on with the game after yeah I mean Martin's right he plays on the edge but in that first 20 minutes he looked like a player who might get sent off because he looked like he was almost too pumped Just finally was it a missed opportunity for Arsenal then?

11:12They had the fewest number of shots in a Premier League game since losing 2-0 at Bournemouth in October 2024 So they had the man advantage for probably an hour when you add in injury time Chelsea still offered a threat on the counter and they kind of restricted them to very little obviously Giochner He said that should have been a chance at the end if he just opened his mouth a bit louder maybe. But they didn't really create that many openings of note, did they? Well, we'll know at the end of the season if this was a significant result or not. That's sitting on the fence. That's the kind of stuff I see when Tom asks me the question.

11:48Well, in the bigger picture, I wouldn't be too critical of Arsenal because they dominated the North London derby. They dominated their Champions League game against Bayern Munich. And this was away from home and Stamford Bridge were up for it. In the sense that it's a wasted opportunity is we've been lauding the way Arteta has grown as a manager. I would have expected a team that is going to win the title to do more against 10 men than they did. He does err still on the side of being cautious, I think. I think it's a good point for Arsenal. I do. I mean, I think you go into the away game at Chelsea.

12:35Chelsea, you know, one of the informed teams at the moment in the league. It's one of their toughest games they can have all season. And they come away with a point. And I mean, what Martin said is true. You know, I think this was the first time in three years in a league game they played a match without Gabriel and Saliba at the back. You know, they're playing two guys who are new, not having that kind of solid foundation that Arsenal always have. I think that's a huge thing. Missing players. And the end of that week, I think to come out of that seven days with a 4-1 win over Spurs, 3-1 win over Munich and a 1-1 draw away at Chelsea, I think they 100 % would have taken that at the start of the week.

13:08The one thing I think, which I know we kind of always have to sort of have a big opinion about whether this is a great thing for Arsenal or a terrible thing for Arsenal. The only thing I noticed this week is that Arteta has basically played the same guys in every single game. You know, he played Zubemendi in there, he's played Rice every game, played Saka every game, played Timber every game. And I just sort of look at the season as a whole, and we've had this with Arteta before, is he learning his lessons about rotating? Is he learning his lessons about keeping the squad fresh, avoiding injuries?

13:38And when it comes to the crunch in March, April, Pep Guardiola rotated his team in the Champions League, didn't he? Basically gave that game away. He said, actually, we don't need that match because of where we are on the table. Harder to do that against Bayern, I suppose. Kind of, but I think these days you have to accept the Champions League is a rotating competition now. don't get carried away by the big lights and playing Bayern at home. It's not a big game in Arsenal season in the context of where they are. I think they just have to be a little bit careful. They don't play these guys into the ground and suddenly you get to kind of March, April and the team is burnt out.

14:10OK. We shall see, Alison, you are right, of course. We shall see later in the season how important You see, it is something you say, isn't it, Gregor? You can't help it, you had to say it. OK, let's go to London Stadium now, Alison. Liverpool won. They dropped Mohamed Salah and Alexander Isak scored. You were there. Tell us about it. Unbelievable scenes. I'd like to say wow, wow, wow, but it wasn't a wow, wow, wow sort of game. It was a really strange game actually because the news broke that Billy Bonds had died so there was a strange atmosphere. He died that morning, the great former West Ham captain.

14:45So beloved, iconic. So they did a tribute but necessarily perhaps not the best tribute they wanted to do because it was short notice. And I think people were arriving not knowing what had happened. So there was a unity in the stadium, for sure, but there was also a quietness. And it just lent the whole occasion a strange, surreal element. And Liverpool won, yes, but they won mainly because West Ham did not do what teams have been doing against Liverpool. They were not aggressive with them. they allowed them to play football all the things that Arnie Slott might have put on his checklist please please can an opposition do this for us can they not score when they get the occasional chance Don't kick it long please West Ham were trying to play football and it didn't work and so Liverpool were allowed to slowly very slowly get into a rhythm yeah you're absolutely right the headline from the game was there was no Mo Salah chosen which with strange symmetry, the last time he'd been dropped was in April last year against West Ham.

15:56Were you there? I was there. I remember you coming in after that. It was a very strange day. You'd get blown away by the mix zone. Well, yes, I was in the mix zone. And Salah, who never ever stops unless he's got a contract dispute, but normally never stops, we asked him to speak. And while still walking, he said, there will be fire if I speak today. we spent a good part of half an hour replaying those words to make sure we'd heard properly did he say fire? are you sure he said fire? what could it have been? what was the debate? well you just worry that you're going to put it out there and it's not correct he might have meant something completely different they will be friends I don't know fear?

16:37fear maybe but anyway we think he said fire and so you sort of got the impression then as you still do today that to drop Mo Salah is a big deal. You know, he's the player for Liverpool. He's on big pages. Alison, do you think he's in decline? Is he in decline? Yeah, his legs have gone. Yeah, yeah, but you know, no one's saying that out loud because he's Mo Salah. You don't really think that, do you? Legs have gone. I mean, they haven't gone completely, but there's an edge gone. There's definitely an edge gone. And I think what's happening is he'll be fine, but he needs to work out how to adapt to his slight lack of pace, I think, I think is what's happening.

17:20So who stepped up? Well, the upshot of this was on the right you had Joe Gomez. Now, I'm a Liverpool fan and like a lot of Liverpool fans, I love Joe Gomez and I couldn't see for the life of me why he wasn't there playing at right back. It's a position he can play. So play him there. Don't put Dominic Saboslay there and waste him. So you had at right back, you had Joe Gomez. And in front of him, playing in front of him on the right, was Sir Bozly. That was a combo that worked. It wasn't perfect, but it was solid. And Joe Gomez got involved, delivered a lot of crosses, a lot of intelligent balls, got an assist.

18:00It's the answer. The answer, especially with Conor Bradley injured, is to put Joe Gomez there. And it worked. So you kind of think, well, great. Arnie Slott got it right. dropping Salah meant he could really, really toughen up that right side, which opposition teams have openly said they've targeted for Liverpool when they've been playing against Liverpool. Let's go down their right because it's really easy. It wasn't easy. And it also freed up the left wing, gave them a chance to get involved as well. So it was tactically a good thing to do. And also it meant Sir Boslow wasn't in the middle. It meant Florian Wurtz could go in the middle, where he looked more, I'd say he probably looked as comfortable as he's looked in a Premier League match for Liverpool so far this season.

18:47It wasn't an astonishing performance, but you could see touches of class. We've seen touches of class before from him. The difference was that it was constant. It wasn't just one or two vignettes. And his body language was of someone, he said, oh, I like this position. I like playing behind a striker. This is quite good. and Isak missed an early good chance and I don't think anywhere near as good as he will be but at least scoring his first goal for Liverpool in the Premier League shows that he's slowly getting there so it's small steps I wouldn't say a massive corner has been turned because I think Liverpool will come up against tougher opposition in the West Ham almost every week from now on Martin you'll have been delighted to see Isak get off the mark in the Premier League for Liverpool No I am I'm probably the only person in the North East, so I say quietly, I would like him to do really well.

19:42He was brilliant for Newcastle United. I would argue, I don't think they win their first trophy in 70 years without him. He messed up Arsenal's defence in the semi-final over two legs and did the same to Van Dijk in the final. Getting him up to speed is so important. Sorry, first of all, that is not a commonly held opinion in the North East, by the way. If you're going to do this, if you're going to make a transition the way Liverpool play from that full-on, full-frontal, aggressive style from Klopp to something more sophisticated, underslot, then Wurtz has to play as the turn. He has to play behind Isaac.

20:20You have to sacrifice Egeti in the short term to get Isaac fit and you have to create a relationship between those two, which could be something, put it out there, a Peter Beardsley and Andy Cole type relationship where they can read where each other's going to go. the big thing about signing Alexander is like his last season, Jacob Murphy, who has somehow developed into this David Beckham type player for his quality of production from the right-hand side, was put on a plate every time, player with very little ego, signed a long time ago by Rafa Benitez, went on loan at Sheffield Wednesday. He did everything that Alexander wanted him to do in terms of where he put the ball and he was naturally right-footed.

21:00If you have Mo Salah as a left-sided footballer who wants to win the Ballon d 'Or and wants to win the Champions League, you have a completely different dynamic. So it was an interesting solution for Arnie Slott to find yesterday to leave Mo Salah out. You look, I was being slightly serious there with the question to Ali because he is 34 next year for Mo Salah and is there an eye at some point that are going to play in Saudi Arabia? Does he have a long-term future in this team? but then you go back to the stats from last season which is 29 goals and 18 assists and that's a hell of a thing to take out of a side so the transition is going to be interesting and slow and they have a fairly pumped up Sunland this week to face which will probably be a better test than, as Ali said, a fairly insipid West Ham Tom, what do you think?

21:53Are we too quick to say his legs have gone? I've said this a couple of times in recent weeks we've said it was aimed at Virgil van Dijk as well They just had brilliant seasons, helped Liverpool win the title and a lot has happened and they've come off the boil like almost all of their teammates and immediately their legs have gone. I remember we had this conversation two years ago when Salah was going through a tough match and I said his legs had gone then. And I said they should sell him now, which would have denied Liverpool a whole league title. That's why I'm not in professional football. I remember we asked Ange Postacogli this last season about Son, you know, and whether he felt that, you know, Son was kind of coming to the end.

22:33And he made the point that in his experience, when players do go, they go very quickly. And he said that he said that the decline doesn't tend to be a sort of, you know, over two or three seasons. The numbers just gradually trickle down. It tends to be right at the top. And then within six months, almost unrecognisable. recognizable you know I don't know what that is I mean is it just literally the feeling in your legs you just lose that fitness do you lose that kind of motivation I'm not quite sure but I think that was quite stark to me that that does happen professional footballers and we you know I mean Martin's right you know we all know what Salah did last season but I think it is possible for a player to go from from the top to to something you know that is almost indistinguishable from what they were before and I have to say like I do think with the big players sorry Martin with the big players and big teams.

23:22I think you have to make brave judgment calls often. We've seen with Ferguson did this often with big players. Real Madrid, for example, in the last few years, selling Ronaldo, getting rid of Ramos. I kind of periods where these real titans and giants of the game, you think, wow, they're getting rid of him and he's still playing well. But actually, you almost, I think, have to sort of accept a little bit of a transition where, yeah, they go away for a year and maybe they go somewhere else and do really well. But ultimately, for the long-term stability of the club and the transition, you have to make that decision.

23:51And I think that's kind of where Liverpool are now, you know, that, of course, you could keep Salah, you know, and he's going to be fine for the next two or three years and he could kind of tick over. But I think to get the best out of Isak, to get the best out of Verts, to get the best out of Gakpo, you know, get the best out of this team as a whole now, I think Slott has to make the brave decision, which is to move on. Okay.

24:14So we've sold more Salah today, right? Okay. I thought Son's legs had gone last season. so it was interesting to see the way that all played out and the Carabao Cup final so I don't mean to keep repeating it when Newcastle won Tino Liveramento completely snuffed out the threat of Mo Salah and I'm just as quick as I can trying to check your stats there he didn't have a great end to the season that Cup final he barely touched the ball in the Newcastle half did very very little so it was the top half part of that season I think where he was better but I just think that this debate was the debate we were having last season just before they signed their contracts now you've got to accept that they've got their new contracts and it might be a transition but I don't think it's like cast them to one side so it probably is about how Slott said after the game how he manages it it is going to be hard but they must have known that when they gave him two years so it's going to be very interesting to see I mean that is part of it as well it's the character isn't it because sometimes you can have players I remember Gerrard I think did a season or two where he was sort of like bit in and out of the team under Klopp but you sort of think yeah in a dressing room maybe Gerrard is kind of someone you kind of keep around even if they're not sort of playing I don't see Salah as that you know I don't see Salah as being kind of a you know jovial going around patting everyone on the back saying go and have a good game today guys don't worry about it you know I'm happy on the bench like he's just not that kind of personality I think he's either playing or he's not playing.

25:38What'll be interesting will be Africa Cup of Nations so he'll go off with Egypt and what Liverpool do with him not there it might feel more natural if he comes back to a winning team where the right side is functioning better for the whole club Well we shall see Quickly Paqueta's red card Alison this was pretty extraordinary wasn't it Wow I mean he's shown two yellow cards in quick succession for dissent by the referee Darren England for arguing over a decision like about a free kick with what six minutes to go Yeah 84th minute Yeah and then he came out on social media afterwards after getting a bit of criticism from, I think it was Rob Green, Sky Sports.

26:20Yeah, ridiculous behaviour. Yeah, ridiculous behaviour. And it did look ridiculous behaviour and people will say that in commentary. That's fair enough, I think, because you're still with a possibility of clawing something back in the game and you are the most creative player on the pitch for West Ham. The team needs you there. The context is important here. He was obviously subject of a two-year FA investigation to spot fixing allegations. which he was cleared of in July, that kind of scuppered an 80-odd million move to Man City for him. So he's clearly been bruised by this. He was linking the two things.

26:55He said, it's ridiculous to have your life and career affected for two years without any psychological support from the Federation. And then he said, perhaps this ridiculous behaviour is a reflection of everything I've had to endure and it seems have to continue enduring. I'm sorry if I'm not perfect. Is there any sort of merit in Lincoln? his behaviour there with what has been going on It seems well-fetched I don't know I don't know but he had the footballers winning lottery ticket in his hand right he was going to play for Pep he was going to play for Manchester City he was going to win the Premier League he was going to have a good chance to win the Champions League and because of an FA investigation that was all taken from him and if you read through the minutes of that investigation and the case that David Moyes in his defence presented for one of the games for West Ham I think it was away at Bournemouth the FA had said he knew he was about to be substituted so he deliberately committed a foul to get a yellow card and in his testimony David Moyes said that's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard because I didn't even know what substitute I was going to make so for them because some subs had run up the line the FA said ah he knew I was about to happen here so if you go into minor detail of this case which I did at the time I can imagine this being the ultimate head bender there is a better phrase for that, but I don't want to swear on it yet.

28:13For anybody, we sometimes forget just how hard a footballer has worked to get to this level of the game, which is the very, very top. And he was one step off that final move, which was to Manchester City, probably would have been there for three years. Pep would have made him better, more money, more kudos, much, much more silverware. And it all went at that moment. As for, is that justification for his behaviour? yesterday I'm not sure but in terms of what it's done to his head I think it has to have had an impact and I once that case I remember speaking to somebody about a month ago saying is there a fallout to this or West Ham who obviously lost a lot of money and Lucas Pacquitar who lost his dream move are they looking into legal action against the FA and at the minute I'm not sure about that but you saw an overreaction there is a lot of pressure and West Ham are a poor team it's all on him and Bowen at the minute I don't know if it is an explanation for it but what he's been through is a phenomenally difficult experience in his life and his career Well you can read Martin Samuel's column who definitely has an alternative view to that if you like on the Times website pretty scathing about Pakita called itself indulgent anyway it's obviously been a difficult time for him but pretty remarkable scenes he just would not let it go Martin to Newcastle now or to Merseyside for Newcastle's first win in the Premier League on the road for 236 days that's remarkable when you lay it out like that it doesn't feel like 236 days maybe it does for you yeah it was one of the things that was getting bigger and bigger and the how many days did you say 236?

29:54236 yeah so the last the last win of 236 days ago was already very nearly relegated Leicester City under Rude Van Nistelrooy so it wasn't one of your glorious away days and I think the other one might have been West Ham who we are aware are not a great team at the minute so yeah but what fell in wrestling was A the way they completely steamrolled Everton at their new ground with the Boyd by two victories the last one with ten men against Manchester United was the way Newcastle steamrolled them from start more or less to finish although they dropped off a little bit then but the comment from David Moyes when he said this is probably the most powerful team in the Premier League.

30:37He then quantified it slightly by saying, along with Arsenal. And this morning I've been Eddie Howe's press conference and he was asked, are you back? And he said, I don't want to say that. He said, but that's how the last two games in the Premier League, which was Manchester City at home, which Newcastle won 2-1 and now Everton away, which Newcastle won 4-1. He said, this is how I want the team to play. And it looks like, mentioned him before there about, moving your squad around. This was one time when Newcastle had done that correctly and got it right. And, you know, you've, to go off slightly, Lewis Hall and Tino Liveramento signed a couple of years ago, I think for the best part of£70 million.

31:19And there was a stack of questions over them for the first six months. Are they ready? Are they not good enough? Now they're absolutely brilliant and essential to the way that team plays. So this morning, Eddie Howe made reference to Anthony Langer, who got his first assist and Jacob Ramsey. and how it will take them two players' time to learn the style like Newcastle playing, which is there's certain patterns of play that they have when they press. It's a powerful style of football. It probably does have a bit of resemblance, at least to Jurgen Klopp's Liverpool and the way they want to be very front-footed and aggressive.

31:51And yeah, the full value for the win. And the table is so tight at the minute that we, and I get it, we're talking about Liverpool having a terrible season, who are three points behind Chelsea, who are having a brilliant season and couldn't win the title. and Newcastle have just joined a cluster of teams in the middle there on 18 points with Tottenham Hotspur tomorrow and Burnley at the weekend and you suddenly think if they were to pick up six points from right then that changes the outlook of the season dramatically. Martin, I mean, I've just got to come in there. I look at the table and joint points on Spurs, you know, and obviously Newcastle playing Spurs tomorrow night.

32:24And as someone who covers Tottenham regularly, you know, the feeling at Spurs now almost couldn't be lower, you know, and the way the fans are and the performances and the results. Why is there not a similar, but why is there not at least some sort of dissatisfaction with the start of Newcastle when you compare it to Tottenham, for example, in the same place on the table? The Champions League wins have pushed a lot of that away. It was, you know, as it stands, nobody really benefited from that. Alexander, Isaac, Sobot, but Liverpool haven't yet. Isaac hasn't. Slott hasn't. Newcastle haven't. Eddie Howe hasn't.

33:01Newcastle suddenly bought a lot of players later on in the transfer window. Visa, we were told this morning, is getting closer and playing behind the closed doors. 11 aside while Newcastle would be never. Would he be back for the derby against Sonnenberg on December the 14th, potentially? So I think there's been a bit of patience in terms of blending this new group of players together after a hard summer. you've also got a significant amount of cash in the bank from winning the club's first major domestic trophy in 70 years you've got two Champions League campaigns the current one which is ongoing a bit of criticism in there for Nick Pope for a mistake of Marseille in a couple so it feels like there's been factors in there

33:48but to contrast Tottenham and you saw a bit of it from Wolves under Gary O 'Neill that on-pitch descent towards management and each other is an awful sign and I think that does transmit to the seats in the stadium that you play in everybody can see you're not united and I asked Steady Howe this morning about that reaction to Vicario from Tottenham fans which I'm still amazed by and also the comments from Thomas Frank saying you're not a real Tottenham fan which I saw on your matchboard Tommy like as soon as you heard that you're the same with Hallie Torn about Mo Salah did he say fire with Thomas Frank you're like did he just say that so the answer to Eddie Howe was we are united we're all together the sports are together and in fairness that's the one thing he's pretty much done from day one made sure that supporting side St James' part is a key element of the way this team plays the other element is their home form is really good and if you're a manager lose the away ones because only 2 ,000 your supporters there win the home ones when there's 60 ,000 because they are the ones that will give you dogs loads of abuse, which as you can see is happening to Tottenham.

34:57But there's a grown sense of unity, sorry, the grown sense of the season coming together a little bit, Finney Castle. Last season, I think they may have had around the same points at this particular point in the season. If they win the next two, I think they'll probably be three or four points ahead of what they were when they went on to qualify for the Champions League. So it feels that there's momentum building and I'm sure everybody who enjoys footballers with a bit of flair and skill watching Nick Faldemar do that little dink over Jordan Pickford is a great goal to watch Paul Joyson's match caught it perfectly said it was a sheer delight and it was one of them so yeah the team is finding its feet Big win for Newcastle, big game against Spurs coming up in midweek we'll talk about Spurs after the break and that descent from the stands.

35:50Break time means quiz time. Another Bill Edgar quiz question. Here we go. Brentford and Burnley each have a captain who has scored an own goal in the Premier League this season. They are also international teammates for which country? Find out after the break.

36:17Welcome back to the Game Podcast from the Times I'm Gregor Robertson alongside Tom Olnott, Alison Rudd and Martin Hardy There was silence for quite a while after that quiz question but eventually Martin Hardy got the answer which was Josh Cullen and Nathan Collins who are both of course Ireland teammates Cullen scored an own goal against Crystal Palace last month and Cullen scored an own goal against Manchester United in August good knowledge guys, anyway let's move on quick round up of some of the week's action we'll start with those clubs, 3-1 win for Brentford against Burnley, 11 goals in 13 games Tom for Igor Thiago, is he going to get a Brazil call up?

36:56I think it's a bit late maybe, I was talking to someone a Brazilian journalist about this and and asking who was going to, who was sort of ahead in the pecking order between him and Richarlison. And they were saying that the problem is that Thiago has is that there's only one more camp in March, right? Before the kind of squad picks. So he may have just kind of timed his run a little bit late, but I mean... It'd be madness, wouldn't it? Yeah, I mean, you'd think Ancelotti as well, he knows what the Premier League is. You'd think he probably has a subscription and he's keeping up with the games from Rio de Janeiro or from Madrid or wherever he's living.

37:28so I mean you know as someone who sees Richarlison as someone who sees Richarlison you know a lot we get paid as much as Mozilla as we ever did and you know official subscriptions but Thiago Thiago had a season out right which was bad news for Brentford but it means come the World Cup he's going to be still fresh he's still on an upward trajectory of getting his fitness back he's clearly improving with every single match he's he's got that World Cup hero written all over him because of the way he's improving. Whereas Richarlison is up and down, always up and down. You don't know what Richarlison you're going to get.

38:06Thiago, I think, is much more predictable. And if the reason for him not getting the call-up is because of timing and one get-together before the World Cup, that is just a poor excuse, I would say. Let's start a campaign. A Times campaign where we give him little badges. I mean, if he was English, should get in the England squad wouldn't they I mean you know but I mean Brazil have got probably a bit more talent than England up in those areas but isn't he the leading Brazilian scorer in Europe you're probably I mean I'm sure yeah probably right yeah I'm here for it it'd be a great story a great story yeah elsewhere 1-0 win for Villa against Wolves Bubukar Kamara's wonder strike settled out Wolves went bad Emi Martinez had to make some big saves although 8 points adrift is the biggest gap since 3 points for a win were introduced in 1981 some signs of hope maybe though for Rob Edwards' side 3-2 win for Manchester City against Leeds thanks to Phil Foden's 91st minute winner and there was a very comfortable 2-0 win for Brighton at Nottingham Forest Brighton up to 5th but let's move on to talk about the side tied with Brighton on 22 points sitting pretty in 6th Martin Hardy, Sunderland this looked like a great fun game howling wind and rain 5 goals, 10 bookings it looked brilliant there's so much to talk about I'll try to be brief but But to watch Iriola's gone absolutely bananas for the entire 90 minutes.

39:30Drenched. To the fact that when it was 3-2 and there was a tackle, which in fairness, I'm loath to criticise the refs, but he looked like he was getting blown away by the weather as well. His decisions were sometimes a bit questionable. I think there was a challenge by a Bournemouth player where he played the ball. The Southern player fell over. This is near the end and they're soaking wet pitch and Iriola's soaking wet. in the press room afterwards, I did notice when he left, you know, if like, if you've been on a bike, the bottom of his black pants were covered, it splattered in mud and his shoes were caked in mud.

40:03And he thought, this bloke's really not happy in the Northeast. And when this decision went against him, he was, he was so, he was so furious. He actually pulled his coat over his head. So he couldn't see anymore.

40:19And then when he, when he pulled it, when he pulled his head back out, he started gesturing the ball as in he's kicked the ball it was a feisty wasn't it 3-2 win come from behind win for Sunderland how good are they how good are Sunderland somebody inside that football club towards the end of last season came up with a slogan which they put on the side of the team bus till the end right and it captures perfectly what's inside that club and Reggie Slabris is a really good company but quietly spoken but very thoughtful and he's always talking about the connections between the players, maintaining the spirit.

40:56And bear in mind they signed, what was it, 16 players in the summer. So that could easily have been blown apart. Xhaka's been a very important player. Enzo Lefeuille, who we did the big interview with last season, I think he's a lovely player. As soon as them two start linking up, which they did for Lefeuille scores, the penalty, Lefeuille and Xhaka set up the equalising goals before the second half. They win the penalty just at the right time because Tyler Adams has scored a break. So much happened. Tyle Adams scored a brilliant goal. There was a 3-2 or 2-2 to some Menio crosses and it hits a Sunday defender.

41:30And if even Elson leaves it, it's probably going in and it's a goal, but your instinct is a centre forward and it's thundering down with Reynes to give it a final touch in, which makes it offside. So there's so much going on, but that's spirit. And also Lewis Cook comes on and decides not to mark his man for the Sunday's third goal. so yeah we know you're a bit wet and then decide to elbow somebody in the face to get himself sent off there was a lot happening in the game there's a fantastic 45 minutes but what Sonnenau found is that spirit that spirit also I haven't checked but the ratio for taking chances must be extraordinarily high because they don't create stacks of chances but they never ever give up so hence probably comes on against Arsenal and scores a dramatic equaliser this time he gets the winner and yeah, the 22 points, I said to Magis after the game, have your, you know, what can you achieve now?

42:28Are the objectives starting to change? No, no, no, 40 points still, that's it. If we get that, we'll start to look at something different. But that home form, that home form has been an absolute rock so far. Have you, Martin, have you ever come across a manager who's as different in demeanour to the style on the pitch as here. Everything you've described, if you didn't watch football, you'd assume the manager would be one of those Mourinho types who puts all their emotions out on the pitch. But he's the opposite of that. How do you marry those two factors? Well, when Cairo Lewis-Dravers, the son and owner, was interviewed by him about a month ago, he said, I don't think he was particularly referenced as Sonnen, but he said the emotions at this club and Premier League clubs goes up and down and he said he's perfect because he stays very calm.

43:19That means if you're 2-0 down and he said this to us at half-time, he'll go and find solutions with his coaches and they'll go through videos quickly to change things inside the games. The game management is very good. Some games, they're very passive for 45 minutes. The surprise Wolves, by turning that round, are very aggressive and probably won the game in the first half. But that home form is something that will ensure they stay up and do rather well. And yeah, you know, to draw with Arsenal, to beat Bournemouth after being 2-0 down, to beat West Ham, these are results 12 months ago Sonnen couldn't have dreamed of.

43:58So it's been a spectacular rise and at its heart has been Le Brice. And as you said, he's a contradiction to that team because that team's full of aggression and full of, you know, they are one of these teams that's strong at set pieces that put six or seven players up. They may have carried a little bit. tricky couple of weeks coming up Martin Liverpool away City away and then Newcastle and then Newcastle at home and for the first time we're side derby in the Premier League for 10 years that will be a cracker I'm sure an absolute cracker so we're looking forward to that if you watch both sets of if you watch both teams about the last two or three weeks their fans are both singing about the other team even though the game was about a month ago they're all the Newcastle fans are singing out the Summoned songs Summoned fans are singing out Newcastle songs and obviously Jordan Pickford got a bucket load of Abusa Newcastle's fans on Saturdays Martin what's the witchiest that is transmittable oh blimey I don't know I don't know let's move on the song that is quite original is the Bella Ciao song that Newcastle fans sing for Malik Ciao some people pronounce them fiao but it's Ciao and which goes back to peasants working in Italy so it's a a very very catchy tune in terms of songs Eddie Howe it was Eddie Howe's birthday on Saturday and he admitted today that Joe Lynn had tried to sing happy birthday to him in the dressing room and nobody joined in that would be a good sight right let's go to Spurs Tom finally do we have to?

45:34we do we do have to because two undefeat at home against Fulham and big disconnect with the fans kind of widening even more I think after this result? Yeah, and this was a big game. You know, it was a big week for Spurs. They played Arsenal, they played PSG in the Champions League. And then the biggest game of their week was Fulham at home 100 % because Thomas Frank needed a win. You know, he needed a kind of statement performance, needed a victory. And what they got was, you know, this big build up. And then after six minutes, they're 2-0 down. You know, a goal flies in off, you know, a destiny of Doggy's knee.

46:10Okay, Frank was sort of pointing to the deflection as if it was maybe a little bit unlucky. but to be honest, Fulham could have scored two or three times. They hit the post, they had two or three really good chances. And then Vicario, you know, makes a mistake, which, to be honest, you know, you see mistakes where people, you know, lose a man or they give a bad pass away. But I think the fury of the fans for this one was that it was so avoidable. You know, I mean, he kind of, if people haven't seen it, you know, he sort of collects a long ball and instead of kind of clearing it first time, he sort of carries it, dribbles it off into the corner.

46:40That was sort of, you know, mistake one. And then there's that kind of rise of the fans saying, OK, you've done that, but now put it into touch, you know. And even then he sort of doubles down and he says, no, I'm not going to put it in the touch. I've got something a bit better than that. So he tries to skew it up the line, gives it away. And then, you know, it's Wilson, isn't he? Whips it into the open net. Do you think, but just to explain that, do you think Vicario did that? Because it is almost like, why would you do that? Because of the multi-ball system? Do you think keepers think, I need to clear the ball upfield because if the ball goes out, it's coming straight back at me and I'm not in position.

47:17Although, I mean, Spurs are playing at home and I know, you know. No, but the balls are there. You don't have to be given them. They're there. Yeah. It seemed to me like someone who was overplaying, like he felt like he could do something cleverer than the basic thing. Yeah, I thought that. Just to play safe, you know. And I think, to be fair to the fans, I think they just thought, really? Like we're six minutes into this match that we've all been building up to where everyone was really pumped to kind of get the home win, get underway. And you have two goals like that flying after six minutes.

47:44And of course, you know, the whole, that sort of framed the game in my opinion. Because then from then on, the rest of the first half, Spurs players were just playing with fear. There was an ironic cheer for... Ironic cheer for Vicaria when five minutes later he did put it into the stands. They were better in the second half. You know, there was a spell for 20 minutes where they created some chances, created a bit of pressure. Quiddles pulls one back. But even then, you know, you've got this kind of scenario where it's, can you come back against Fulham? Fulham drop off. They basically said Spurs, okay, break us down for 45 minutes.

48:12Can you score two goals, three goals? Give the ball to Pedro Porro. Cross, cross. Kudus, cross, cross. It's very sort of one-dimensional football at the moment at Spurs, at home against these teams where the fans want to see them come up with a style of play that is slightly more inventive, a bit more ambitious. Xavi Simons, the 52 million, you know, number 10 creator that they signed in the summer when they didn't get Eze, when they didn't get Gibbs White, on the bench here, you know, in a game where you'd really say this is the match where you want someone like Xavi to be playing. I think the problem Frank has, you know, when you look at it, is that he's come into a club and a team where from the off, you know, there's a section of supporters.

48:51I wouldn't say a large section, but there is a section who are instantly suspicious that this is a Brentford guy. He's not going to be able to scale up, you know, that he's not going to be able to have that kind of ability to look at opponents, come up with a bespoke plan and play in a way that kind of fits every single match. Because ultimately, one, Spurs don't want to play like that. They want to play attacking football that's front foot. We play how we play. And two, there isn't the time. There's a logistical issue here, I think, with Frank, where he wants the time on the training ground every week to come up with a brilliant idea.

49:21And he's a really smart coach, brilliant coach, brilliant strategist. Does he have the time at Tottenham to come up with those plans? I think at the moment he's finding that really challenging because he's tweaking the line-up, tweaking the formation, changing the combinations all the time so there's no fluency. But are any of these plans actually bedding in with the team? Because every time all we're seeing is kind of tactical confusion. And the thing is, and what Martin said about Newcastle is true, you'd rather lose games away and win at home. And we can talk all we like about the boos for Vicario.

49:54None of us would say that's right. None of us would say that's beneficial. Is it brave to call out the fans though, as Frank did publicly afterwards? said they're not real Tottenham fans. He's right to say it, but it doesn't help anything by saying it. Because let's be honest, Spurs have won three games at home in 2025. Three league games at home in 2025. Southampton, Burnley and Man Utd. Three terrible teams. This season, they've won one home game out of seven under Frank. So this problem predates Frank. It's an Ange problem. It's a Tottenham Hotspur Stadium problem. But he was brought in to fix these issues and they're no closer to fixing them.

50:29and why are they so poor at home? You know, in my opinion, what are the ingredients of a good home team? Front foot style of play that can break down cagey opponents and a connection with the supporters. Frank needed a good start, he needed a positive start to get those kind of suspicious supporters on side and unfortunately, I think all these kind of dreary games, you know, where they're not creating enough chances, he's not proving the doubters wrong at the moment, you know, and I think the club are behind him. Frank has been very much at the centre of this restart, very much at the forefront of the appointments, you know, in sports science, medical, lots of things that happened.

51:02Frank has been at the centre of. So they're behind him, but he has to, I think, very quickly produce more evidence that this team is going in the right direction. Because if we're honest, it's getting worse at the moment rather than better. Alison, do you fear for Thomas Frank? While I was watching the game unfold, I did fear for him, actually. He looks a bit haunted too, doesn't he? You referenced in your piece in the game today about the stare, icy stare he's given reporters when they're sort of asking slightly two-pointed questions. That's not a thing we'd associate with, Frank. He never had to deal with that at Brentford.

51:35He's never had those before because no one got cross when Brentford lost because of course they're going to lose the odd game. No one was, you know, felt that was an embarrassment at any point. You were there, but I felt Mickey van der Ven is the outstanding player in that team and it would have been, there would have been more goals against had it not been for him and he is the one consistent player. Otherwise though, there's nobody really I would take from that Tottenham team and put in any other team. I just don't think he's got the personnel to do what he'd like to do. And I think he must be looking across at Brentford and thinking that was supposed to be the collapse.

52:12That was supposed to be the team that was going to really struggle with all the upheaval. And I think he would have been, oh, I don't know. He'd have been having more fun with them than he is with Spurs. But they've got a better team, Madison than the one that they're than the performances they're showing. I mean, I... But, OK, who... But are, really? Because I don't genuinely... Other than Mickey van der Ven, I don't see players that I'm thinking, oh, he's good. Oh, I really rate him. They drew it home to Wolves, you know. They've lost it home to Fulham who haven't won away all season. They have...

52:44So you're saying they're really good players hampered by... No. Hampered by Thomas Frank's approach? But 0.05XG at home to Chelsea is not acceptable. I mean, I think it's a fair point and I agree and we should throw in the asterisk here about the injuries. You know, Frank has been dealt a tough hand. No Kuliseski, no Madison, no Solanke, which they definitely didn't bargain for. Madison and Kuliseski, they sort of knew about, but Solanke has just been nowhere all season and that's really killed Frank. And then we go back to the summer where, you know, they should have signed Eze, should have paid the money to get the guy.

53:18They should have paid the money to get Gibbs White. And you've got two number 10s, creators who can hit the ground running, proven players in the Premier League. Instead, you sign Xavi Simons for 10, 15 million less. And here we are in November and we're still waiting for the guy to find his feet in England. I mean, that's what Frank has been dealt in terms of the squad. So there are definitely challenges there. The team is still underperforming. It's still underperforming according to the players they have. So how does a really condescending version of mate sound in Danish? Is that where we're heading with Thomas Frank?

53:49As was the case of his predecessor for so long. This is possibly... I asked a day. There's a possible question for Gregor. Are defenders too pretty? And this is certainly the case with Tottenham. Bergwold makes a half-hearted pirouette to block that ball as it comes across for the first goal. But Doggy does nothing at all to suggest he'd stop the shot. Spence, for one of the goals against Arsenal, turned away from it. You think back to defenders like John Terry and Tony Adams who's seen would be wanting to beat for the ball to smash them in the face you've got players these days especially Tottenham who can't be bothered to make blocks I mean in fairness Alisson's right Van de Ven is the counter argument to that he made some great challenges like where he came from and some big blocks as well and there was one where Jimenez looked like he was going to get a header and he got in front of him without him that could have been a really embarrassing scoreline yeah there was a point Mido the old forward made on the radio this morning when he went which player would a child at Tottenham have, whose name would they have on the back?

54:53And people in the studio were like, there is nobody apart from Van der Ven. And that possibly speaks for, I think Frank has had a difficult hand here. The worry I have for him is that nonsense where the two players ignored him, players stomping off like they did on Saturday. It's like, you've lost, by the way. Forget your tantrum, you've just lost again. And whether, and I'm talking about, slightly tongue-in-cheek. Players aren't putting it on the line for Tottenham at the minute. That was so obvious in the defeat to Arsenal that I videoed the final goal where nobody could be bothered to move for a Tottenham throw-in within 25 seconds as they had completed his hat-rig.

55:33The body language was people with hands on their hips. If I'm in charge of Tottenham, I'd be a little bit worried that these players are having a bit of a strop and aren't necessarily playing for Tottenham. I mean, probably what they're doing, I mean, I don't know if this is true, but I suspect from everything I've heard is that they've shifted from a culture in training that is very different and asks much more of them. And they're probably like, oh, this is a bit much. But there isn't any time for training. Literally, these guys are playing in Europe every week, midweek. They're coming back, stopping, getting ready, doing some video analysis, going to the next game.

56:10And I think that is part of the issue. But they're probably being asked a lot in the video analysis that they weren't being asked before. Yeah, and I think almost Frank, is that thing, is he overthinking it? Is it time just to kind of stick with the formation, stick with the team and try and get some momentum going? It's a big week, Gregor, I mean, it's a big week. They've got Newcastle away, not a place you want to go for a relaunch right now. And then they've got Brentford at home, which is obviously a team that Frank knows well. Big week, big win for Fulham as well. First away at Taunton for 12 years.

56:38Finally, it was a big day for Joshua Zerksy, that's where I was at Sellers Park. first goal in 364 days and I tell you what you would not have seen it coming at half time Man United were awful in the first half but you referenced there about having no time that was a game where both I've never heard both managers reference after a game the fact that like both managers that the other team was knackered like Crystal Palace were so exhausted from Thursday night Amorim said I could see it even before half time that they were exhausted and Glasner was fuming about the fact that he's not got any players to kind of rotate so you're right it's a big issue and it's a big issue it's like a particularly now when we come into this period of the season where there's so many games and it's so congested the teams who aren't playing in Europe have got a massive advantage as well So did you see that win for Man Utd as a I mean because on paper it's a great victory right?

57:26Great victory yeah Was it more a physical thing for you then? I think so I mean I got a bit of abuse for the tone of my match report actually probably from Manchester United fans but I think like the second half it owed a lot more to to Palace's sort of fatigue than United's really great improvement. They scored two goals from set plays which were good goals and a big moment for Xerxes but I think the opponent's sort of fatigue was a huge, huge issue and as I say, both managers referenced it after the game but big win for United. Big win for United after the disappointment of Monday night's game.

57:59Did Xerxes move out left? Is that why? Was he having more fun there than playing centre forward? Amorim was asked about that afterwards. I mean they looked like a bit of a tweak at half time but he actually kind of downplayed that and said they just looked more the players were more alive there was more intensity I told them that they were knackered you up your intensity levels a bit score the first goal the game will change and in fairness he was right so big win for Manchester United If you are the kind of person which I suspect we probably are who can stare at a league table for hours and hours this one could take days off your life at the minute of the Premier League because it's so complicated because you're waiting for some patterns to emerge.

58:44It's starting to feel like the Championship, if you have a good two or three game burst, you're suddenly torn about the Champions League. The gap, the spread, what, from Everton in 14th, there's 18 points, sorry, it's six points to third place Chelsea. There is so little between the teams at the minute. You're waiting for something. Four points to fifth place Brighton as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really, really concertina. It is, it is. make for an exciting season let's hope so let's hope so and there's a full slate of midweek Premier League fixtures to feast on in the next few days as well we'll be back on Thursday to analyse it all guys thank you for joining me I hope to see you on Thursday