Chelsea are Champions of the World! Premier League next..?

0:04Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. Chelsea are champions of the world. Enzo Mareska's side stunned the mighty Paris Saint-Germain to win the Club World Cup 3-0 in New York on Sunday night. On today's show we'll discuss that match, ask are this Chelsea side the real deal and wrap up the rest of the latest football news too. I'm Tom Clark and joining me from America, we have the football reporter for The Times and Sunday Times who covers Chelsea and clubs in the south of England, Pete Rutzler. How are you? I'm good, Tom. I'm good. We're at the end of a long month and it's finally over.

0:42So I'm quite pleased. But yes, very good. All in all. Excellent. A long slog. Yeah, I've got to say, when we sent you and Hurstie out there, I was like, I wonder how long they'll both be out there. I wonder, you know, I've got to say, I didn't see you being out there for the whole thing and we definitely didn't see this coming. You did say on the preview show that you thought Chelsea would give PSG a better game than Real Madrid managed but even the most positive and passionate of Chelsea fans probably didn't see this coming, did they? No, nobody. Not a soul. I think anyone who claimed to have had faith in Chelsea winning in this way would probably have been deemed a bit delusional to be honest.

1:22It was a pretty astonishing performance. that's not to, you know, undermine the fact that they did it. I think it's the levels that they reached in that game, the problems they caused for Paris Saint-Germain were absolutely fascinating. Fascinating in the sense that we've only seen Chelsea against, I wouldn't say weak opposition, but they haven't really faced serious competition in opposition in this tournament so far. And this was the first major test, the first big club. since they've been out here and big European club, obviously PSG. We've talked about how brilliant they've been this year.

2:04But to perform in that way is a huge moment. I think it's a massively important moment in their project. I think it's really important for Enzo Maresco. I mean, it's, yeah, it was, they were fantastic from the start and their start really set the tone, I think, for the rest of the game. Yeah, what was it about that start? just for people who maybe have only caught up with the highlights and things. What was it about that start, that opening half an hour that impressed you so much? Oh, it was the intensity. I asked Enzo Mreska this afterwards. I said, well, what did you sort of say to make them, to make the players sort of believe a little bit?

2:38Because all of the conversation, well, we talked about it, was just how good PSG are, how unstoppable they are, how brilliant their press is, how big their threats are. It's all about what they can do. And naturally, if you're going to face an opponent like that, you're slightly fearful. You have doubts. You're going to have misgivings. You're kind of you have that worry. But yet Chelsea just didn't seem to have any of that. It was total, total focus, total concentration and a really intense press. And maybe there's a view. And I remember saying this to a colleague. I was trying to think of another midfield trio that could really push PSG.

3:18Of course, you've got Liverpool and how well they've done. But Enzo Fernandes, Moises Caicedo, it was Rhys James who was in midfield. We were a little bit, you know, is he going to be OK? We've got Cole Palmer in there. And the way they went man for man on Betinha, Joao Neves, Fabian Ruiz, never let them settle at all. Chelsea had a very clear game plan to exploit space on the left, to go at Nuno Mendes. He likes to get forward a lot, but isn't probably as strong defensively as Hakimi on the other side. He's a bit more complete. And it works so, so effectively. and PSG were a little bit sort of overwhelmed and yeah, there'd be an element of tiredness, maybe a degree of complacency perhaps, but they were suffocated.

3:59I haven't seen PSG be subject to that for a very long time and quality then shone through as well, of course, through Cole Palmer, who stepped up again in a huge moment and a huge final. You know, you had the picture of him with Ousmane Dembele on top of the Rockefeller Centre, hanging off a beam over Central Park. You go around New York, his billboard is everywhere with Scary Good written on it. It's just not phased him. It's actually, you know, he's channeled that and proved it right. And when you couple all of that together, you can get a performance like this. And I just didn't, I don't think anyone expected Chelsea to reach that level.

4:41And that's what makes it so surprising, but also so, so encouraging for Chelsea supporters. Do we think PSG didn't expect them to reach that level? Because Chelsea were fantastic and watching it back this morning. But the way the defence slightly parted for Cole Palmer to just score basically the same goal twice, is there not a case for us saying that PSG have slightly underestimated Chelsea like everyone else did going into this game? Possibly. I don't think. I'm sure that PSG would push back on that. Luis Enrique was quite effusive with his praise. I sort of treated that as a bit, you know, he's just doing that to deflect, you know, just before they turn up and steamroll them.

5:22But I genuinely just think it was tactically pretty smart from Marescu. He knew exactly where PSG would be weak. If you could get them early in their build-up, don't let them settle. Don't let them press you in your own final third. Keep it in the middle third and in their third. And you may end up with chances. I think there's a degree of fatigue, of course, with PSG. And I wonder if there was a sort of slight mental fatigue aspect to it. But you could absolutely say the same for Chelsea. This is their 64th game of the season. Their season began 11 months ago. It's hard to, you know, both teams have been dealing with the conditions in the same way.

5:55So that's kind of a bit of a leveler, really. So you can only take what's in front of you. And I think PSG never quite managed to, it was almost as though, and this was the key thing for me, was just how physical Chelsea were. So the way they were tackling them firmly but fair, I mean, there was a few yellow cards early on as well. But it was almost like, I'm not sure I can be up for dealing with Moises Kaysado kicking me again. And Fernandes biting at my heels again. You know, Fernandes was all over the team year. And it just, I wonder if there was a point in which they went, I just can't, I can't do this now.

6:31That's how it felt from their perspective. But I think you can't take anything away from Chelsea because that's, you know, they knew how to come into this game and have the right approach. and delivered a really sensational performance. I mean, their first half was absolutely fantastic. João Pedro is someone we picked out in the preview show. Another great performance from him, I thought, a really, really composed goal. Talking about Cole Palmer, you know, stepping up on the big stage and being the big I am and looking completely cool, he slotted into this Chelsea set-up pretty seamlessly, hasn't he?

7:04Yeah, I mean, this is the difference, right? So think to the second half of the season. we finished the January transfer window Nicholas Jackson picked up an injury Mark Gui the backup young striker picked up an injury and they play without a forward for a couple of months they've already had a sort of dip in form loads of criticism about them the style of play, ETC but then you fast forward to this tournament now having signed Liam DeLapp having signed João Pedro the threat difference in what they have is pretty big it's a huge change Pedro's had a brilliant start very unexpectedly I think we talked before about how he'd been on the beach and gets the call and is ready to go but then we saw in this game where after an hour where Pedro's been excellent really smart finish against Donnarumma Donnarumma is probably the best keeper in Europe this season you bring on Liam De Lappe and within seconds he's bullying Marquinhos and Lucas Baraldo It just couldn't really seem to cope with their physicality.

8:09That chance he created for himself almost out of nothing and then shoots from about 25 yards, Dominarum are diving full length. It looked like a guy who is maybe emboldened not just by the move, but also by the fact they've signed João Pedro, and maybe the two of them are going to go head-to-head. And actually, it's proof of the manager's old adage of competition for places is really good. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I completely agree. I think there was another one which he, I think he sent Marquinhos to the floor before running up to the keeper and Donovan made another good save. And there's a real bit between his teeth.

8:44And yeah, there is that internal competition. I think they're slightly different as well, which gives Maresco options. You know, Gerard Pedro was very good at linking up the play. There was the move before Palmer scored where he put that chance wide. You thought, oh, are they going to regret missing that opportunity? but again that's Jaal Pedro knitting things together dropping things off to Fernandes and Parma and De Lape just has that presence to run the channel and he's also been doing that I think I've spoken on the pod as well about how De Lape has been able to bring players like Fernandes and Parma into play in the positions that Chelsea want them to be which is on the edge of the box with opportunities to score yeah I mean it's really encouraging it's interesting for Jackson you know it seemed like in his cameo in the semi-final he's going to struggled to adapt to this sort of change.

9:28But, you know, Jackson was never short of people who would praise him for his work ethic and what he does off the ball and things like that. So it just gives him rest of her options in a really, really positive way that should, you know, this is a team that did finish fourth in the Premier League last year and they have got stronger. And I think we saw that. Yeah, yeah, we'll talk about Chelsea's growing strength in just a second. But a player I wanted to pick out, Robert Sanchez, a goalkeeper, you know, much mocked at times, maybe much criticised. Lots of Chelsea fans saying we need a keeper, despite talking about the fact that they possess like four or five or maybe nine goalkeepers on their books at differing times.

10:03He's ended up winning the Golden Glove. He stood next to Donald Trump at the parade, you know, and the celebrations on stage telling him, come on, Donald, this is how you do it. This is how you get excited for a trophy lift. And he played incredibly well, made a good save, and his passing was pretty strong. Yeah, I think this was more a question. I think you could see it from Rhys James as well. It was like, are you staying? oh the reese reese james's face is an absolute picture isn't it the the still image that we have on the times website the president of america stood next to uh the chelsea team and reese james is there going uh is this is this is this how it happens is oh shall i go shall i go with this okay okay he's staying yeah bizarre absolutely bizarre carry on yeah extraordinary um yeah i i the whole thing was very bizarre even the way that you know infantino comes on sort of just pushes Trump back middle of the celebration but to go back to Sanchez I sort of laughed there because during that first half I think we were talking about who is this Robert Sanchez?

11:05It's like an AI version of Sanchez that's been sort of upgraded mainly because of his distribution there were three passes in that first half I think the third one was pivotal in leading to the second goal because it set Malagusto away who then feeds Cole Palmer who does the rest free passes straight through the PSG press straight through it completely bypassed it Chelsea move up the pitch I think it was definitely the best performance I've seen from him particularly in terms of his all-round game and it's probably the I was going to say the first time but there's always been this sense with Chelsea and their goalkeepers that there is a real confidence in Sanchez which has never really been reflected in performances there's always been this uncertainty even in the semi-final against Femenense Chelsea appeared comfortable and there was a ball over the top to, I think it was Hercules, and it should have been Sanchez who claimed it, hesitated inexplicably, and the forward gets a shot away and he has to make a save.

12:00Here, there was none of that uncertainty. And it just goes back to the point I was making at the start. There was everything, it was very clear in Chelsea play, I said there was no doubt, there was no sort of misgivings, there was no idea of fear about what they were facing. And that was true of Sanchez as well, who also made some really good saves. There was a Dembele save in the second half, which, you know, if that goes in, suddenly you're going to face a torrent and maybe the game swings quite strongly at that stage. But he needed a performance like that. He needed a tournament like this. It's the kind of thing you can really build on.

12:33You know, there's always, particularly since Chelsea tried to go for Mike Magnon, there's that sense that, ah, well, if something happens, someone becomes available, then they're going to quickly dip in and grab someone. But yeah, he had a very, very good game. Obviously, it's going to be a different thing when he's back in front of the home fans at Stamford Bridge and is playing shorter passes. He was certainly helped by the fact Mureska wanted him to go longer in this game. And he executed it really, really well. So, yeah, a big game for him. But he wasn't alone. Malagusto was another one. Malagusto had an absolutely terrible Conference League final, hauled off at halftime.

13:15It was a real Nadir, that performance. but here he was one of the best players on the pitch. You know, he kept Kavar Scalier quiet. He then kept Barcala quiet. He was on a yellow card for a long period in the game. He looks more comfortable in this new system that Mareska has been trialling with just traditional full-backs rather than inverting them. So yeah, suddenly he looks, he's had a brilliant, brilliant moment too. So yeah, there's a lot to take from the game. For those two players, they're good examples of what maybe Chelsea fans will be listening, thinking, yeah yeah yeah we're excited about João Pedro yeah we know Cole Palmer's the absolute boy Caesodio's great Enzo Fernandes is looking good but we still need more we need more these are the kind of performances from those players that actually makes Maresca go I don't know actually I think Robert Sanchez could be a top four Premier League goalkeeper or do you think there's maybe more to come from Chelsea in terms of spending we know obviously they've made a lot of money from this tournament could they now go and spend it Yeah, so they've made around£90 million, I think, which is close to the maximum they could have picked up, at least in terms of participation money and prize.

14:20They're at the upper end of what could have been offered. I mean, they've pretty much done that by reaching the final. So this is the performance on top here is the real, real fillet, the real positive. yeah it's they they still need to sell and obviously they're selling not a Noddy Madiweke George Petrovic is going to Bournemouth for 25 million pounds so they are recouping the money they need to meet their UEFA settlement agreement sanction which is that they have a positive transfer balance by the end of the summer which will allow them to register their new players so we've still got Jamie Gittins to come into the team you've still got Esteval Willian to come into the team who's arriving this summer.

14:57Chelsea will always, you can't rule sort of anything out with them in the sense that if something positive pops up, a market opportunity, that kind of thing, a player that they think will move the dial for them or an opportunity they can't look away from, then they will move. I think there are positions that do probably still need addressing. They probably need some more support for Marco Correa, who's sort of the only recognised left back. Obviously, James has played there and Gusto's played there. Goalkeeper will always be a question. They have generally, for the last six months, 12 months, been very consistent in their support of the keepers that they have.

15:35But then their decision to go for Mike Magnon shows that nothing's off the table. So you don't necessarily think it's the case that, you know, they went for Magnon before, they'll go back for him now. Robert Sanchez, thanks very much. great golden gloves on but no guarantees in this team no i mean i mean the sense i've had is that you know we're just it's not good we're not going to go back for him it's it's not something we're looking to do but you can't fully trust that i mean manuel's in the last year of his contract and uh if milan suddenly go actually do you know what that offer you were putting on the table we wouldn't mind that then maybe things change but i think i'd be i'd be a bit i would still be surprised if they did do something there.

16:17Centre-back's another one. You know, will someone go? Will Trevor Chalabas stay? He's been fantastic. He was very good again on Sunday. There's always been this uncertainty since he's come back from Crystal Palace that he may want to go. I think there's a sense that it might be more to do with him and what he wants. But I mean, he's been really excellent. So it would be, you know, that Chelsea could sell him seems he's an academy player and yeah it seems a surprise but obviously they went for Dean Howson didn't they so yeah defence is probably the area that they haven't really strengthened so much this summer and if we are to see anything further it would probably be in that area Very interesting we'll come back to some of the bigger picture topics with Chelsea and some of the other clubs in the Premier League after the break just before we go to that break PSG much lauded much loved this last season the neutral's favourite obviously unless you're an Arsenal fan or a Liverpool fan or any of those teams that they beat on the way to winning the Champions League, did Chelsea just give the blueprint of how to beat them?

17:22Or was it a bit more of a circumstances, kind of performance on the day type thing? Or have this idea that PSG and the new way of playing, have Chelsea just come along and said, actually, not always there, always perfect? Yeah, no, I think they have. I think what they've done is they've punctured this sort of growing era of invincibility. You know, PSG is 5-0 winning Champions League final, beat Real Madrid 4-0. It's like, oh my goodness, like this team are on another level entirely. Chelsea have turned up and completely, completely punctured that. I think, I think, no, there is an element of on the day.

18:01You can just have an off day. But there's certainly a blueprint, particularly in just the way that Mureska sort of exploited the space on their left-hand side. the way they went after them so aggressively.

18:16Yeah, they've certainly done that, Chelsea. And I think it was, I mean, the degree to which this was a difficult afternoon was pretty evident at full time, right? When you've got the players in a sort of a confrontation, Luis Enrique appears to be pushing Gio Pedro. I mean, that was quite the head loss. So it certainly got to them that it didn't go their way. and I think that had a lot to do with what Chelsea were able to do in the game as much as it was PSG's own flaws. Yeah, absolutely. We'll see how PSG respond in the new season. It's time for that quick break. Time to put Pete Rutzler's football knowledge to the test.

18:54Who am I talking about when I say a former footballer who was a runner-up in the Club World Cup in 2012 with Chelsea and also played for Liverpool, Atletico Madrid and AC Milan? Nice and easy this one. Find out after the break.

19:36Thank you. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit Optum.com to learn more.

19:53Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Pete Rutzler with me straight in with the answer to the quiz question. Nice and easy. Pete? Fernando Torres. Fernando Torres. Listeners, I will reveal that Pete admitted in the break. He was like, sorry, Tom, I wasn't listening at all when you just asked me that quiz question. He's just so used to Gregor Robertson jumping in with the answer. That's what it is. We'll let him off. Pete, coming back to Chelsea. They're title contenders now, aren't they? They've banished PSG. They've won the Club World Cup. They finished the season pretty strong.

20:24They've made some great signings up front. Watch out, Liverpool. Watch out, Arsenal. Watch out, Man City. Chelsea are in the hunt. Are they? Well, they want to be, and they probably should be at this point. I think the way that they've sort of spoken after the game when Rhys James came out and said, We want to be competing for the Premier League title and go far in the Champions League. Maybe as we talked about before, you could probably make some improvements in defence. What makes me think that they may not be is just how much of an impact this is going to have on the start of their season. So they are going to have three weeks off, the players, the managers.

21:05They have to have that, which means they return about two weeks before the opening day of the season. So I think their training session on Thursday or Friday was basically on the same day that Crystal Palace began their preseason. Crystal Palace, of course, are their first opponents of the Premier League campaign. So I think I'd be very surprised if there isn't a hangover of some form. I'd be very surprised also because they're going to have to have a truncated pre-season or their pre-season will be their first Premier League games, that they're going to have to manage their players quite carefully as well in terms of injuries and things like that.

21:44So that's a big unknown about this tournament. Absolutely. But they have got their young squad. That is a point about a lot of these signings. They've got a young squad. And yeah, you're quite right to pick out Palace as a tricky opening game. But then you could argue the other way. Could you not? Home against Crystal Palace. that's three points that people should be expecting a team near the top of the table to get. Then they've got West Ham, yes, a local match, but as an away game, again, should be winnable. Fulham, always a tricky team. And then Brentford, they're in the capital for their first four games.

22:14They're not even travelling north of Birmingham. They've got no excuses. Big squad, all the confidence, hit the ground running, 12 points, top of the table. I understand where you're coming from, but I think if you're a Chelsea fan or if you're a neutral, you've got to be looking at this Chelsea attack and that midfield. Now that Caicedo has answered all the questions that people posed of him after he signed, Enzo Fernandes now looks like the midfielder that everyone thought Chelsea were getting. And they've got the absolute boy called Palmer. I completely agree. Goalkeeper remains maybe a question.

22:46Sent a back, you'd like another one in there. But you start looking at, if you do that level of critique with Manchester City or Liverpool or Arsenal, you can pick holes in their teams as well and we consider them title contenders should we not be just automatically putting Chelsea in there now with all their talent? Yeah, no, I think that's a fair point they should be in it you take someone like Kukurea for instance I mentioned that he doesn't have there's not another left back there he's been playing for 12 months we spoke to him about that in an interview on the Times website now it's incredibly demanding this lengthy period So they do need a proper reset.

23:27And then you've got to come back and then refocus and go again. I just, I know, the quality is there. I think the performance we saw against PSG really sets the tone. It's a marker. It's a point in which you go, right, Chelsea, they are here. They should be title contenders. And I think they have the ability to do that. It just wouldn't surprise me if they start slowly and then suddenly you're off the pace. I think it'll be interesting to see how that's received and the degree to which that's sort of accepted. did I think you know this it's it's I think a lot of people have seen the club book up because not I don't know it hasn't really been watched so much back home I would say I don't know it's it's it probably is perceived as kind of a pre-season tournament but it's very much a post-season thing which is competitive yeah which is a very different thing particularly when you're playing in the kind of conditions that they've been playing in so it's gonna take a toll and And I'd be very surprised if it does.

24:22And I mean, if it doesn't, it would make, you know, and if they do come out extremely strongly, as you say, the fixtures are there for them to do that. But if they can do that and suddenly put themselves in the conversation early, then I think that's very, very impressive, to be honest. Just looking at it a slightly different way, and this is going to link into another club that I wanted to ask you about in just a second. But if I was thinking about a club to challenge Liverpool for the title next season and looking at purely on squad and talent and depth and Premier League experience as well, because that's the other thing about signing players like João Pedro and Liam de Lapp, they've played in the Premier League.

24:54I think there's a case to be made for saying Chelsea is the squad I would want. If I was a hypothetical manager doing football manager or FIFA or something and going, give me a squad to challenge Liverpool, I'd be picking Chelsea's over Arsenal and I think there's a case to be picking Chelsea's over Man City. What do you think? Yeah, no, I think so. I mean, I'm just thinking back, because obviously I said about their midfield. The midfield is absolutely key for Chelsea. It is one of the strongest in Europe. And I think we saw that, you know, that finally these£100 million players are starting to repay that.

25:30And, I mean, without Romeo Lavia, and if they can get Romeo Lavia fit and keep him going for a significant portion of the season as well, then you've got a really, really strong midfield there. And I think the way they sort of tweaked it as well, the way Mareska has tweaked it to basically get Rhys James in there a little bit easier, you can use him as a normal fullback as well, then you're looking at a very, very strong team. But yeah, I think the forwards now are very much competitive. I think Jao Pedro's had a great tournament. Let's see how he does when the season starts. Liam De Lappe had a promising start too.

26:01It's going to be a different beast playing in the Premier League week in, week out. We have to keep that in mind. We are watching them at the Club World Cup and they've been playing a Brazilian team, one from America, one from Africa. So there is that sort of, what is the level? really. Defence is the question mark, isn't it? I think, but as you, you know, certainly in terms of the squad, they're certainly in the conversation, I think. It's just whether they can, yeah, I think we're trying to hit the levels that they hit at the start of last season, which may be tricky, but let's see. One thing that might make me change my mind, the classic presenters flip-flop once we come round to the pre-season shows in a few weeks' time, is if Arsenal can get Victor Gokyrez and a few more signings over the line.

26:42Because I then start thinking about that and I've got a few pals who are Arsenal fans who are not sure about Nani Maduweke. Maybe a little bit worried about Giocarez's goal record in terms of the amount of penalties that are part of his goal record. I think I was reading the other day that he scored 19 penalties or something like that, which is one of the highest tallies ever. Same question again in terms of what I'm saying about Chelsea's attacking line-up. If you start going that Arsenal have got Maduweke, Saka, Martinelli, Havertz and Giocarez as a five to choose from, pretty strong or still need something?

27:19I think it is strong. I have reservations about Guilherme. I mean, he has a fantastic goal-scoring record in Portugal. But, you know, the Portuguese league does have a drop-off in terms of quality. You have the big clubs, you're sporting Benfica, Porto, Braga. And then the quality level dips quite a lot. So it can be tricky to really judge the level. I think he's very different to what Arsenal have been doing style-wise. I remember watching him at Coventry City. He's a big forward. He's a big presence. So that will have an impact on the whole way they play and have been playing for the last few years under Arteta.

28:00That's why they haven't had a nine. It's because they didn't want to sort of play with that kind of presence that takes space. It does give them variation, though. And the fact that we saw Arteta use Mikel Moreno in that way and quite effectively suggest that he will have a positive impact. It's just the degree to which he does. What is his level? And I'm not sure what that is. He's gone from... I remember in Coverture, there were a lot of Premier League clubs who were looking at him at that point, weren't sure. Goes to Portugal. He clearly stepped on again. He's 27. So I think a lot will hinge on how he performs.

28:39I think in terms of depth, as you pointed out, certainly, I mean, they've already been title contenders. They've only strengthened in that sense. So you would think that they'd certainly be in the conversation again. It'd just be interesting to see how Gioca Reyes sort of adapts. Absolutely. Arsenal and Chelsea fans, if you've got views on Gioca Reyes or on Chelsea's strength or potential weaknesses, get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Now, Pete, just returning just to finish with two stories that happened after we recorded the show on Friday. Morgan Gibbs-White, this is something we did discuss, but this was before the latest update in this chapter of this potential saga that could rumble on.

29:18Charlotte Dunker and Tom Ulnut reporting on the Times website that Nottingham Forest considering legal action against Spurs over their approach for one of their star players. Forest claiming that the North London club contacted the England player over a possible move without their prior written consent. We believe Gibbs-White was set for a medical with Spurs on Friday. after they expressed the intention to trigger a£60 million release clause. However, sources have said that Forrest have ceased, this is on Friday, ceased all communication with Tottenham and are consulting their lawyers as they believe the North London club made an illegal approach to the player.

29:52As we're recording this show now, we believe that Nottingham Forest have taken that a step further forward. I do wonder whether there's a little bit of desperation in this. I always find these kind of tapping up type stories slightly fascinating because to me, and this may be the cynical editor in me, there's always conversations between clubs and players and agents. I mean, this is how deals get done, right? Am I wrong, Pete? Yeah, I mean, it does give the sense of, you know, we're trying to show we're doing everything we can to keep our player when it's clear that they're going. I mean, in terms of transfers and things, you generally don't see concerted pushes for players that don't really have the nod that the player would be interested or at least wants to know what they're going to offer and consider.

30:43The amount of times you'll see transfer stories where the personal terms are agreed before the clubs have started speaking sort of points to that. I think what's interesting with the case, and obviously I don't know the details specifically on this, but obviously there's a release clause involved, which I'm not sure many people sort of knew about so the degree to which that became apparent can sometimes play a part in these disputes so maybe that's an area of focus but no, I agree I'd be stunned if Forest had, with Naysan players if they haven't spoken to or had some kind of understanding that they may get somewhere with the deals they're chasing you just don't really get that otherwise in this day and age yes it's outlawed it is outlawed and in the game but it's you know approaches like that but it it the market doesn't really work otherwise it can't be as efficient if you're constantly making bids for people who don't actually want to join you yeah I mean it would be an interesting one to see I mean there's part of me that understands it from a Nottingham Forest point of view look they've lost Anthony Alanga to Newcastle for around 50 million pounds if Gibbs White were to go for 60 as I think we touched on you start losing two of your best players maybe the two best players who pushed you towards nearly getting in the Champions League last season you understand the level of frustration and you'd try and keep hold of them so we'll see whether Forrest follow up with that legal action against Tottenham and see whether Tottenham can get that transfer done.

32:11Keep your eyes on the Times website for the latest from Charlotte Dunker and Tom Allnut on that story. Pete, just to finish with another story that came out late on Friday. Crystal Palace relegated from the Europa League to the Conference League. Businessman John Tex's interest in both Palace and Leon broke UEFA rules, the governing body confirmed. And then it means that now Nottingham Forest, who we've just mentioned, of course, looks set to take Palace's place in the Europa League. Pete, this is full games gone for me. I'm just going to read you a tweet by our pal Johnny Northcroft, obviously from the Sunday Times football correspondent.

32:44He said, Steve Parrish, obviously the Crystal Palace chairman, is right. UEFA, the emotion of Crystal Palace is terrible. Palace were never in a multi-club ownership. Text it is selling and Palace's only crime, in inverted commas is not using technicalities to game the system like others do punish the small let the big do whatever football's way says Johnny and I've got to say I completely agree with him Pete there's there's something that makes me quite angry about this just because of what we've seen in the past with other clubs Manchester City and Girona the two Red Bull sides I think Manchester United even had an incident with the it's the it's a similar thing to me with the transfers and stuff where you go, hang on a minute, why have we ended up with this one scenario when the game is like this all the time?

33:33The multi-club ownership is all over the game. And as Johnny says, it seems to be their only crime was not using the legal technicalities to get around it like all the other clubs do. It stinks a bit to me. I don't know about you. Yeah, I'm absolutely gutted for Palace. Particularly, I spent a bit of time covering Fulham and obviously they have their history of going into the Europa League and a club of that kind of standing, what it means to get into European competition. Obviously, there's a big financial difference between being in the Europa League and the Conference League.

34:07When you consider all the other examples of different multi-club systems, the way they operate, the way that they exchange players, it's very, very hard. It's just not possible to put Palace in that bracket. it there is the case that you know there is a deadline that they would have had to meet in order to sort of get around this and they missed it they didn't see it they didn't do it so in that sense there is that but then I think what Johnny Norcross point is right just about fundamentally how the game is right now and the look and just the fact that you have to have these technicalities in order to get around it you know you're still going to refer to Girona as part of Manchester the City's multi-club operation.

34:49If Chelsea and Strasbourg ended up in the same competition, which is a possibility, and one ended up in a blind trust, you'd still refer to them as part of the same multi-club system. You can go on with all of them. It's also, for me, the fact that it takes part of the joy out of one of the great stories of last season, Crystal Palace winning the FA Cup, one of the great, great moments in a season that, yet when we had a league title that was all but decided by about February, we needed these cup competitions to give us the neutral joy, the sports journalist joy, the football reporter's joy that, oh, I've never seen, as Martin Samuel says, I want to see things I've never seen before.

35:25And to me, it's just that slight kind of sucker punch. It's like the moment the big light comes on and someone pulls the plug on the music at a party. It just slightly takes that away from Palace. And yes, they're still FA Cup winners. Nothing is taken away from them in that sense. But part of the prize is this is what you get. that's the other thing Palace fans will have talked about we're in the Europa League and yeah fine they're still in Europe, Conference League etc but that is part of it to me as well that feels a real shame is that it takes away some of their victory in a way what do you think?

36:00Yeah it does I think Palace winning the FA Cup was one of the best stories of the season it was we think back to the scenes we saw at Wembley at full time what it meant to Palace supporters friends that have the Palace fans but it is just symptomatic of a wider problem they've just sort of been caught up in it they're sort of like the innocent victims of something that's already bolted in terms of multi-club ownership it's rather than the specific case it's the actual existence of it in themselves how can John Textile have a stake in both Palace and Leon? That's the question that's the point sure there hasn't been a collaboration you can make that point very clearly and that's why it feels just so if you're a Palace fan infuriating but the real issue is just the ability to do that in the first place you know to treat these clubs as part of a global thing to have them as hierarchies which naturally inhibits competition so you have to have these rules you have to if you're going to have multi-club you have to have that kind of president otherwise you'll end up in a scenario where they could face each other it throws into question the integrity of the of these tournaments so yeah it's it's that aspect that's so dispiriting and I think you know I mean if you take your club, Tom, and they're part of some kind of little feeder system or whatever, and they got into Europe, and this were to happen to them, the sense of injustice would be great, right?

37:24I'd be rioting in the streets, Pete. That's what I'd be doing. I'd be turning this podcast into a one-man crusade to get Lincoln City back into Europe, definitely. I mean, because that's part of it. Part of my joy would be that this is something special is happening to my team, and we've earned it. And that's the other thing is that it's because of technicalities and there's, as you say, this multi-club ownership, which everyone has, loads of people have, loads of clubs have. And it's that that group of Palace players won the right to compete in a competition by their actions. And then it's the actions and technicalities of the nonsense people in suits who run football clubs and seem to not do it perhaps as well as they should do that have cost them.

38:02And now those players are going to play in a different tournament for doing absolutely nothing wrong. it just feels very very wrong to me and a real shame perhaps the one saving grace will be that as Martin Samuel wrote in his Sunday Times column Palace can go and win the Conference League instead next season we will see we'll leave it there for now loads more still to discuss and for you to read on the Times website in the coming days and weeks but Pete Rutzler thank you very much for joining us not just today but throughout the Club World Cup and thank you very much for your excellent coverage as well we'll see you very soon to preview the next season.

38:37Your season's only just finished. We'll be previewing the new one very, very soon. Thank you two for listening. We'll be back later in the week with more from the Women's Euro 2025. We'll see you then.