Chelsea Troubles and Arsenal for the quadruple?

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0:36Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. Four English clubs crash out of Europe in the space of 24 hours, leaving Arsenal and Liverpool to carry the torch for the Premier League in the Champions League quarter-finals. Chelsea escape with a fine for making illicit payments to players, staff and agents under their former owner, Roman Abramovich. Senegal are stripped of their African Cup of Nations title two months after that hugely controversial final in Rabat. we'll be picking the bones out of all of that and looking ahead to the Carabao Cup final and much, much more. I'm Gregor Robertson and joining me in the studio today we have the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel and the Times London Football Reporter with a particular focus on Chelsea Peter Rutzler.

1:19Guys, good to have you Pete, great timing great timing, big week for Chelsea Not much to talk about though, I don't know what you got me on Yeah, not much Chelsea to talk about today. I think we've got to start at Stamford Bridge haven't we? Should we start with the football as well? Yeah, let's do the football first whatever you like. Let's start with the football. Pete, you were there, harrowing night against Paris Saint-Germain on many levels. Tell us first of all what the atmosphere was like, because watching along at home, it certainly looked like the fans were very quick to turn and did not enjoy it in the slightest.

1:48No, it was interesting because given the first leg and the deficit that Chelsea were trying to overcome, there was, I think before kick-off, there was certainly a build-up, there was a lot of optimism. It felt like a proper Champions League night. It felt like, you know, the fans fully bought into the idea that they could do it. There was none of the surrounding noise that's been associated with Chelsea for the last 18 months when things are going slightly wrong, whether that be chance for Oberyn Bramwich, which we did later here, or chance against Clear Lake and the Blue Coat Consortium. Before kickoff, you know, there was a real sense that they might pull it off.

2:22That was bubble burst after six minutes. And I think once that goal went in, you just felt all of the emphasis, just the wind blowing completely out of their sails. And from that point on, the mood changed a little bit. You had sort of moved through different phases because Chelsea weren't terrible on the night. You know, it wasn't like they rolled over. It was just they never had control in this game. I mean, Paris Saint-Germain were toying with them. They did, absolutely. This game was completely in their hands. Chelsea were putty to them. It was pretty ruthless, incredibly clinical. but the golfing class was very, very obvious by full time.

3:02And you also got a sense, I think from PSG's perspective, that they really enjoyed this. They really relished this. Losing the club World Cup final was unexpected, kind of their crown taken from them because everyone assumed they would win it. Not that Chelsea didn't deserve to win it, not that Chelsea didn't play well in that moment and it's not as though PSG didn't want to win it or this was a tournament that no one wanted to win. Everyone wanted to be in it, everyone wanted to win it. Anyone who was there knows that. But for PSG, I mean, the way it just, we've seen it since, you know, the way you walk to Stamford Bridge, right?

3:34And Club World Cup is written everywhere. Club World Champions is written everywhere. It's on the shirt. It's everywhere. It's in your face. It's a mistake. I think it is. I think it is. I think it's created a culture that's slightly of entitlement. And I think when you look at Chelsea's problems, it certainly feeds into it. You know, we talk about lack of focus, lack of concentration. Fine getting up for the big games, less so for the lesser games. These are all factors that are built into this culture that I think has really undermined them for some time. But PSG won revenge. They never said they did, but they just showed it on the field.

4:06And the reaction to the second goal was a beautiful finish from Bradley Barkela. Just from the PSG dugout, they went absolutely mental. I think it was a five-goal deficit by that point, five-goal advantage. Went absolutely crazy. And there's only one reason that they would enjoy that so much. and that's because they wanted to prove a point and prove a point they did. 3-0 on the night, 8-2 in aggregate, Martin. What does this say about the future of the Chelsea project? I think the project itself is... I think it's got big problems in as much as... It's all right saying, you know, this is six years or seven years, however long it is you're giving people these huge long contracts and we're going to get this one.

4:53And I can understand what they think. I can understand this idea. We are building this world-class squad. That's what they think. That's what they genuinely believe. And you can go through it and you can go, OK, Fernandes and Caicedo and these guys, you know, Pedro, Cole Palmer. There's, you know, there's a core of talent in there that a lot, you know, Pedro Neto and yeah, this is good. The defence isn't strong enough and the goalkeeper's a liability and the defence isn't strong enough. So that's your first problem. The other problem is Fernandes isn't going to wait seven years for it to all spark.

5:43Cole Palmer can't be expected to let the peak years of his career go by waiting for the great leap forward or whatever. So we should just make this clear that Fernandes gave an interview after the game where he sort of didn't rule out the possibility of his exit in the summer. And as you're saying, there's always a danger at some point that the real stellar players Chelsea do have become disillusioned with the project. They become tired of it, become tired of waiting, become, you know, can see how far they're behind Arsenal, see how far they're behind other clubs, Manchester United, for instance, are now suddenly coming forward as if they could, in the coming years, be strong again.

6:24And how far they are in Europe. Yeah, absolutely. And you look at this, plus Liam O'Senia, the other night, he looked to me like one of those school teachers that no one listens to. You know, you always had those school teachers that would be trying to control the class. And people are just doing what they want. And, you know, they couldn't really, couldn't really, weren't listening. They weren't listening. There was a moment when Garnatcher gets a piece of paper and the look on his face, it's almost like Liam O'Senia has given him his shopping list by mistake or an old taxi receipt or something like that.

7:08And he's looking at it. And his walk towards, like, to relay these instructions, is so slow and there's no urgency about it. And it's as if he really doesn't care. And, you know, I do, you know, we joked about it in here a number of weeks ago, that moment on the touchline, trying to control the ball and it flying off. And I said then, players, that sort of thing, it's, you know, it's not as good. It's always he telling us what to do. He couldn't get in our team and all of this. which comes to the fore when you're not doing well. It's fine when you're winning, you know, no one thinks about it. The minute you start doing well, it's, well, he wasn't a player, he wasn't, you know, and all managers that haven't, of an elite level, that haven't got that stellar pedigree as a player have to get over that at some stage.

8:03Jose Mourinho and all of these had to get over that. It drove Graham Taylor mad when he was England manager. Without a doubt, I think made some decisions based on, I'll show you how clever I am because, you know, he's playing his background, his playing pedigree wasn't of the same level was, as some of the other coaches around at the time as well. So it was sort of like, I'll show you, I'll show you, I'll do something here. That's so smart. And I just think, I just think that it all bleeds into, into this problem. And I'm pretty sure I can't see how any Chelsea director, or executive could look at that against PSG the other night and think, yeah, we're on course.

8:52Because it was a team that was crying out for some sort of leadership, some sort of experience, someone who could get it together. Is it fair on Roussiniar to start laying any blame at his door so early? Is Martin right? Was there a problem in the way that Chelsea were set up? or is this much bigger than that? Well, I think the last week has been particularly damaging for a senior, not just in terms of the results, which are obviously not great. Respect the ball. Respect the ball. The incident with the huddle. The huddle, yeah. We had good fun with the huddle on Monday's show. The issue with that, the issue with that is that he's then added fire to that because it wasn't his thing.

9:35He says it's not his thing. The players wanted to do it. They've got Willie Iser who's in there helping build a culture or winning culture, whatever. It doesn't seem to be working. But anyway, they, you know, and then to come out and say respectable, it just adds noise to an issue that didn't really need the noise and it comes back on him. And considering everything that's been said about him before, that comes into it. But that's the outside stuff. But the football stuff, as Martin's referring to, there's been a couple of decisions that haven't made sense. The decision, you know, to drop Robert Sanchez, for two critical games against Aston Villa and then Paris Saint-Germain in the first leg.

10:11Now, Robert Sanchez, look, no one's going to come here and say he's the best keeper in the Premier League. No one's going to come here and say the Chelsea haven't got a goalkeeper problem and haven't had one for some time. But Robert Sanchez has had a good season. Yeah, he's much better this season than he was His errors have declined and maybe there's a tactical element to that. Maybe the coaches have gone, Enzo Morescu may have gone to him and just said, look, we're going to play longer. We're not going to put risk on you playing short and Risting has come in and I want to do this. change but he's added an issue created uncertainty muddied the waters on the goalkeeper position when there wasn't one and then of course Jorgensen makes it was almost inevitable that this would happen that he would then make an error trying to play out from the back against the best pressing team in the league she's trying to bait them into a press to then play through them bold risky PSG haven't been as good as last season although it seems like they're getting it together now but it's undermined him and then you look at the PSG game the second leg and he's playing Mamadou Sarr right back position that I don't think he's actually started in his professional career he's never played in his professional career no and you're playing against Kibice Kavarot Scalio one of the best wingers in the world and after five minutes he makes a mistake it's unforced errors that then come back to shine on him I should say that Rhys James was injured Rhys James was injured Malagusto was unwell wasn't he yeah that's right so mitigating factors us absolutely and this is where it comes back to so the problems at chelsea are beyond being a senior they've been intrinsic for a long time whether that's strength of the squad i think it's more mentality i'm i'm really veering away from the idea that it's just youth and it's just experience it's the type of people in there you know you can change a culture a manager can influence a culture absolutely the best way to change that is the people you're putting in there and clearly at the moment they do not have a group of players that can win consistently perform consistently over 90 minutes can deal deal well with setbacks we've seen you said that from the first day he walked in about dealing with setbacks and that was a problem under enzo maresca and it's a problem under him and they created a problem for themselves as well with enzo maresca because if you look at the enzo fernandez interview and suddenly there's uncertainty about his future or whatever it seems to me that fernandez was one of the people that was most wedded to maresca that they had a they had a good relationship and everything like that getting rid of Mureska I'm not sure it seemed unnecessary it seemed so unnecessary at the time why that couldn't have waited I don't know it's created you know, everyone's looked at Chelsea for the last couple of years they need stability they've got to stop this churn of players, they've got to stop this you know, these ones are out these ones are in here comes another lot and and then they've added to that by changing the manager mid-season when it wasn't that bad what was going on at Chelsea I mean I'm not saying it was that great but it wasn't that bad and the man have won two trophies um and they did get good results you know against against uh teams like uh bar Munich and Paris Saint-Germain by the way And you just think there's a lot more drama around this club than there needs to be.

13:29But just to add as well, squad building has to be the focus here. We're talking about an expenditure that's one and a half billion quid. When Chelsea pivoted to this youth-orientated strategy, PSG did the same. Now, PSG is slightly different in that their wage structure, they wanted to move away from their bling-bling, but they still pay good salaries to these young players. but they also put in Luis Enrique. They brought in Luis Campos, one of the most experienced sporting directors. They've got Marquinhos. There are differences but when you look at the expenditure that Chelsea have made, they don't have the depth.

14:00You can name an 11 that Chelsea have that can compete with the very best in the game on their day, definitely. I think they can go through the team. Apart from maybe centre-back and goalkeeper, they're pretty close but the depth underneath that that they've spent over this last three years has not proven itself at all and then you also then look at it and go, are you a trading model which is supposed to be the idea to help them be more sustainable. They don't have the revenue streams. They don't have the stadium. They've made a mess of the commercial side of things in terms of the front of shirt sponsor, which is now three years gone, which is a lot of money lost.

14:30You then look at it and go, right, well, are the players you're bringing in to sell, are you selling well? Now, Chelsea have sold a lot of players. Last summer, again, they broke the Premier League record for the number of sales, but they're not necessarily players that they have signed since these sporting directors have been in that are being sold. When you actually break it down in that way, there's actually a much bigger goal. So they're still to prove themselves on the trading model side of things, in my opinion. So when you then look at that, you're questioning the whole project and the direction of the project.

14:56So the idea that they are moving in the right direction, which we all thought in the summer. I wrote it in the summer. Oh, after the club broke up. It looked like it. Going in the right direction here, but they haven't stepped forward. Big questions then about Chelsea's projects. Big questions raised by a news story that broke 24 hours earlier, exclusively by the Times, that Chelsea escaped any sporting sanction for making illicit payments to agents and intermediaries and players amounting to£47.5 million between 2011 and 2018 and have been fined£10.75 million by the Premier League. What's your reaction to that decision, Pete?

15:36Oh, it's incredibly lenient. So you actually had two separate things here. You had the 74 historical charges relating to undisclosed payments made to third parties associated with the acquisition of players. So we're talking players that are pretty significant for Chelsea during the 2010s, during the Roman Abramovich era. Eden Hazard, Willian, Nemanja Matic, David Luiz. The Premier League, as you said, they've issued a fine. there was a first team transfer ban that suspended for a year for two years I think the suspensions for two years so if they do another misdemeanor then that would come into force

16:18it's we've been waiting for four years for this and now these were things that the new ownership self-reported so that's been emphasized quite a bit you know they've gone up look we've come in we've found all this wrongdoing here you go now mark it be lenient and the Premier League I've mentioned that as quite significant mitigation. I think they said that the fine would be 20 million, I think, if it hadn't done that, and they would have had a two-window transfer ban. Would that have been strong enough? I don't think so, in the context of how other clubs are treated. And it's not hard, and I'm sure Martin...

16:53Yeah, let's bring Martin in there on this. Well, no, but just to speak to other clubs and say, well, what do you think of this? And they're not happy at all. Nothing for us in Everton in particular. Yeah, I mean, look, you know, there's no sport. what they call a sporting sanction. There's no sporting sanction against Chelsea, which will come as a great surprise to teams that have received a sporting sanction. Sheffield Wednesday, for instance, I know they're not a Premier League team, but Sheffield Wednesday are going to start next season in League One minus 15 points. We know that already because nobody is coming anywhere close to bidding for the club in a way that will pay off their creditors.

17:31Ironically, one of the creditors is the bloke who got them into this trouble in the first place. So, you know, football has a very strange attitude to this sort of thing. And it's almost as if then all of these financial misdemeanors that, you know, it's almost as if they overplay them because they're made to appear. So we've got this 115 charges, we've got 74 charges, 115 charges. Then when it comes along and when everyone's expecting someone to get relegated through three divisions or some dramatic thing, what happens is, a£10 million fine, which, by the way, Chelsea can pay out of the money they held back from the take.

18:16There's money held back from the take. Yeah,£150 million. To disperse with any things that you find that you weren't aware of when you did the deal. And the rest of it goes back to? The Premier League. No, Mr Abramovich. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, absolutely. The money, I mean, the fine goes to the Premier League, doesn't it? It's a dog's dinner. It really is. I think Chelsea must feel themselves that they've got away quite lightly. But see, the cooperation thing is huge because people from Chelsea will have worked with the Premier League lawyers on this for, what did you say, four years? Four years.

19:01For four years. you know they're all in rooms sitting down going right well this is what we know this is what we've discovered this is this this is this so they're they're hand in glove working with the premier league lawyers very very hard at the end of that to turn around to the fella who has been as helpful as he could possibly be for four years and say it's a 20 point deduction because you know you've You've been working on this together almost. It's quite, you know, the Man City case is completely different because they are at daggers drawn with the Premier League. Whereas Chelsea, they'd have sat in rooms, boxes of papers and this and files and everything like that, working together on it.

19:47So I can see how the Premier League side of it feel quite well disposed for sure. They've been very helpful. They've made our job easier. They haven't dragged us into court for four years or however long it is, like Manchester City have. They've been nothing but cooperative. But no, if I was Everton, if I was Nottingham Forest, you'd be furious. It's interesting because in the Premier League statement and what's come out, there's great emphasis on the fact that, you know, even if this money, the 47.5 million, if that was, you know, on the books, so to speak, you know, then it wouldn't have breached PSR.

20:23there wouldn't have been a sanction so nothing in that sense but there's nothing in there about sporting advantage signing Eden Hazard is a major sporting advantage now you're dealing in counterfactors you say well Chelsea could have signed someone else there's not necessarily the hazard would have gone there anyway maybe they could have bought him on the books but there's a reason that the payments were not on the books that this was done in this way and I think that's the frustration because it's a clear sporting advantage now these are teams that won two titles it's pretty damaging I think for the Premier League.

20:54But the Premier League are terrified of asterisks. They're absolutely terrified of asterisks because asterisks are death to a league. Because if you start putting asterisks next to it, if your Sky or any of their partners, you suddenly, right, so hold on. So this competition that we paid for through the nose, absolute fortunes, and the winner wasn't the winner and everything that we did, and all of our footage, by the way, all of our footage that we have got, how this wonderful library of massive emotions or whatever turns out to be completely bogus because actually the match in which we're saying there's the champions, they're not.

21:35And all these games where this team isn't the champions, they turn out to be the champions. You can tell why they don't want an asterisk. I don't think Man City will get an asterisk either. Whatever happens, I don't think Man City will get an asterisk either for exactly the same reason. Do you want to take away the Aguero moment? I mean, it's one of the Premier League's biggest clips or moments in the Premier League's history. Do you want to go, oh yeah, we can't show that anymore because it turns out it wasn't valid. Just on the second sanction, because the second sanction is actually a separate thing.

22:10They've got a nine-month academy transfer ban, 750 grand fine for illicit approaches to young players at other academies. It's an academy-focused thing that's been put together. Again, self-reported, but on six instances, they approached academy kids between 2019 and 2020, 2022, by a former employee. And this has sort of been pushed together as the same sort of thing, but it's also a pretty significant sanction. It doesn't affect them re-signing their own players. They can still bring players in at under nines, but they can't actually recruit any more academy players for the next nine months, which, considering the way Chelsea have operated, bringing it it's quite important to their model OK challenging week for Chelsea then and for the Premier League you can say that again aggregate scoreline of the four teams who've crashed out of 28-11 in the Champions League over the two legs and the funny thing is people keep going oh see this shows you we're not getting the good attacking players I'm thinking no it shows you we're not getting the good defenders I'd actually say we can't defend this is a problem I do think in terms of forwards though I do think that's the point I think when you look at the top four clubs I mean you can make cases I think with certain individuals at Arsenal or Manchester City but compare them it's a paling comparison I've been saying this for years it's going to come back you can't keep losing players of the standard of Harry Kane and you know and Richard Masters has been saying it doesn't matter the Premier League and duels it does matter it does matter that we haven't got Harry Kane in our league anymore he went to 50 goals on Wednesday night Wednesday night wasn't it 50 goals more goals scored in the modern Champions League than any other English player apart from he's not playing in England anymore Is that still good for the Premier League I know it seems like we don't have the stars so to speak but given the competitive edge within the league and it's sort of laid up otherwise because of fatigue but actually in terms of the margins I mean I think we said it's a poor standard but the actual overall standard is certainly up It's a lot tighter There's an interesting stat that did the round think before the weekend of 3rd of March after 28 games it's only been 6 games with a full goal winning margin you go back 10 years the lowest number of games at that stage 15 games yeah I was at Man U first when they beat them 8-0 and things like that Ipswich I think Ipswich was 8 or 9 wasn't it there was an Ipswich game certainly where I put 9 past them or something like that so is it better to have the league that's competitive from a Premier League perspective and just go anyone can beat anyone and it's chaos you're going to get Tottenham down near the bottom three or is it do you want you keep the one or two stars I don't think it's as bad as you know everyone has got very very you know look that 28 goals or whatever is conceded that ain't good there's a lot of that as game states as well we should say they were trying to come back from big losing margins at the start and you know Newcastle for example had a great first half trying to play Barcelona as open ended and you're never going to get it with that and also you know we did get a hell of a draw a lot of our clubs I mean if you look at the draw that you know last week you know or a couple of weeks I was saying it there that you know we've got six clubs and we have managed to pull out of the hat Barcelona Paris Saint-Germain Real Madrid and Atletico Madrid well there were easier options available you know we could have got one of the things that's becoming increasingly obvious is is finishing in that top eight might be a little bit overweight.

25:49I think the whole league phase is a complete nonsense. It's just exhibition football until we get to March. It is. I mean, even just look at Pierce Jude, they don't really care. What's the point? Why bother? No, absolutely. And, you know. Well, who would have thought out of the four teams who crashed out, the one to take the most positivity from it was Tottenham Hotspur. First win for Igor Tudor under his belt at the sixth attempt. A 3-2 win against Atletico still crashed out 7-5 on aggregate but there were some real positives to take from this game Pete for Tottenham It's so precarious isn't it Ben I just think you've got this moment you've got that little bit of positivity off the back of a reasonably positive result before that you've got to try and hold on to it I suppose it's like putting a candle out on a blustery day and trying to keep it going that's what confidence is in the team but you're right that's why it's important to win obviously the way Atletico set up given the margin.

26:46It's hard to know exactly. Atletico aren't exactly blowing La Liga away this season. Good, but they're not the best in the league. It's about trying to use that as fuel rather than what you saw on the night. I mean, quite downbeat on it because there were positives. Sheffy Simons and Archie Gray. But Archie Gray's been a positive all season. Archie Gray, you look at Tottenham all season. Paul Bell has been moved here, there and everywhere across the team everywhere he plays you look at him thinking even if he's a bit out of his depth in that position he's working so hard he's trying so hard Archie Gray has been I'd say Tottenham's best player all season yeah and Tell as well Xavi Siemens Matthias Tell and Archie Gray huge nights for them but it's big for Tudor as well ahead of the Naughty and Forrest game which we spoke about on Monday's show as well massive game at the bottom of the table to get a bit of positivity even in the stadium as well.

27:46I mean, Tudor, I was at this game last night and Tudor spoke about it afterwards. You could feel that the supporters recognised that the players were given everything to bring this back. And there was a flicker in the first half after going ahead that the chance Till could have squared it to agree and that would have been 2-0 and it really would have been on. Can you sustain it if it goes 1-0 to 5? That's what I mean by being so precarious, right? It's just an instant where it can... and suddenly everything's up in the air again. It sounds like we're incredibly downbeat on what you're right. I think it is a really important game, but it's what you do with it, I suppose.

28:20I'm not sure it's an important game. Nottingham Forest obviously play FC Mitchell in tonight in the Europa League. Do we think that they'll rotate their team, I'm sure, but how much do you think this game on Sunday will affect the outcome? Tudor tried to play it down. and he said this will not decide anything. Everything will be decided the last two or three games of the season. But how important do you think this game is for the relegation battle? It's pretty defining, isn't it? I think particularly so for Tottenham. I think obviously both teams are in the same position. Nottingham Forest, I feel, because of Tottenham and who they are and where Igor Tudor's been, I feel like for him and for the club for that result to go against them is hugely significant for what it does psychologically obviously it's a blow if Forrest don't win the game but I don't see it as the same way as being a knockout if that makes sense but look it's a classic I think it's one of those games that you'll know after this because I think some of the other clubs around the bottom there won't be entirely unhappy shall we say that Igor Tudor has done enough in the last week to keep his job and what they were fearing is another change and this one does produce a spark for Tottenham because Tottenham have got good individual players we know that and I think that's what teams around the bottom were fearing if they don't win on Saturday on Sunday sorry the other clubs around the bottom will be thinking yeah this was a good result for us that was a good result for us Tottenham versus Atletico Madrid that was a good equaliser Tottenham at Liverpool because one point really didn't shift the dial that much three points would have but one point didn't and that would have been if you were Nottingham Forest or West Ham or Leeds or whatever you'd be sitting there thinking if Tottenham don't win on Sunday thinking that was a touch for us because they could have got a new manager in by now and another week's gone by Interesting Positive night for Liverpool and Arsenal we'll be back after a break to discuss that which means it's quiz time Forest have won none of their past 7 games against English opposition and Tottenham have won none of their last 13 games against English opposition in 2026 Spurs have managed 2 victories against clubs from two other countries in this calendar year though can you name them find out the answer after the break

31:22welcome back to the game podcast from the times i'm gregor robertson alongside martin samuel and peter rutzler before the break i asked a very convoluted quiz question the answer to which no one understood no one understood it took us 15 minutes to work out what it was well the two clubs from Germany were Borussia Dortmund and Eintracht Frankfurt and after last night's win against Atletico Spurs also beat Villarreal so they've beaten two teams from Spain and two teams from Germany oh right I see I'm not getting it now I wasn't actually sure that's what I wanted to know but none from England in 2026 or something like that okay before we before we get into the second half just want to take the opportunity to wish Tom Clark and his wife Amy a heartfelt congratulations on the birth of their first child so congratulations Tom and Amy from everyone at the game podcast huge congratulations right to Liverpool now I think next yeah 4-0 win against Galatasaray after trailing 1-0 from the first leg Liverpool really needed this Martin and it was their best performance for quite some time Yeah, it was good and you know look, they got a favourable draw in comparison to some of the other English teams if you look at the two English teams that have gone through Arsenal and Liverpool they are the two that when the draw was made you'd look at and go oh that's alright they should be alright and the other four you're thinking this could be tricky so you know we've got to take that into account as well but it was a chalk and cheese performance this compared to the Sutton game on Sunday when you know Liverpool looked really really sort of moibund really lethargic no energy you know static whereas last night it couldn't have been it couldn't have been more different they were at it and they did well because the game was getting broken up quite a bit Galatasaray began to try and take time out of the game very very early on and you know Liverpool rose above it A couple of major positives I think the first goal was obviously a set play which they've which aren't a slot I think about because I went to the Galatasaray game in the league phase and it was at that point he was bemoaning set plays for the first time and how poor they had been you know it's in 20-26 I think they've got They've either scored the most goals, they're certainly up there.

33:59And last night, the first goal is a well-worked corner routine. Slott's taking them all hands-on roles. We deserve some credit for actually doing that and helping them in that sense. He'll take that from the game. The other was the shape, which was quite interesting. They look a better team when Dominic Sobislai is in the middle. I mean, Dominic Sobislai has been fantastic. One of the players of the season in the Premier League, I think. But, you know, they're playing in this sort of diamond-type shape, which is still quite narrow, but just to the right. and he would drift to the right and you had Frimpong on the overlap.

34:30He's such a fantastic player and I think this has been part of the issues all season is trying to get your best players in the best positions. And the fact that Solisay's been playing at right back for most of the campaign is, well, I think it's a four in their recruitment, to be honest, in replacing Trent. Not that that was going to be easy, but that was certainly a bonus. But also, just with the two, Salah being closer to Ekatike, I think he was still drifting to the right. But it's interesting with him because when you're a wide forward like that and you're entering the latter years of your career, you do want to transition your position.

35:02Do you drop a little bit deeper and become more creative like David Beckham or do you do what Cristiano Ronaldo did and become a central centre forward? Now, Salah's neither of those two players, particularly in terms of stature. But the one thing you could imagine him doing is playing with someone, having someone who can do some of the running, finding the spaces. It was a real threat in behind last night. So I think that's a big bonus, something for Liverpool to take going forward but again, caveats again, it's Galatasaray, it's back to the Premier League, can you then replicate this PSG in the next round Well yeah, what chance do we give them as you said, PSG hadn't been blown any away in the group stage but my goodness they did blow Chelsea away and they look like they're starting to purr at just the right time again.

35:47Yeah, they did, they did Vulnerabilities though Yeah, absolutely, in a way that there wasn't last season I think you know game state matters we talked about how many shots Chelsea had but you know Chelsea they're better their XG you know they created a good enough good quality chances in the two ties didn't have the quality to finish them which is why PSG was unbelievably clinical they've lost Bradley Barkler because he picked up an ankle injury last night he would probably miss possibly both legs of the quarterfinal which is a massive boost because he's been their best player but you know and we were there in Paris while we were Martin and you look at the two teams it was mistakes and PSG looked a bit leggy there were two goals they conceded were mistakes so they're not flawless but you do wonder what this kind of result the Champions League can do for them I think Liverpool give PSG more of a game than Chelsea ended up doing without a shadow of a doubt might even might even get past them still fancy PSG I think Arsenal get to the final I would fancy Arsenal against Sport and Lisbon I would fancy Arsenal against Barcelona Arsenal have we seen a sweeter strike than Eberici's Ezi's volley no I see possibly by Eberici Ezi yeah yeah no beautiful absolutely beautiful goal and you know there were quite again Arsenal in the first half the first leg sorry were quite kind of clunky and functionally you know they were fortunate to get the penalty to bring a draw back to the Emirates but this was a much more assured sort of I know even the players are speaking about about feeling the joy and happiness from the Max Dowman moment.

37:24Martin, you've written about that in two columns this week. No, two, yeah, twice now. That could prove to be a huge, huge moment in Arsenal season, you think? Without a doubt. Look, there's something great about seeing a kid, seeing a 16-year-old kid just come in and play with that sort of freedom, that absolute freedom of where, you know he's been coached every single day of his life but it looks as if he's never been coached in his life it looks as if someone's just tossed him a football and just gone right on you go son um and and it's funny because you see other players say like cole palmer and and so that had brief flashes of like playing like that and and you know whether you just do something um even quite recently Club World Cup final he just did stuff and now you see you know you see players that look like they've been weighed down almost by the coaching and you know Downman's not going to be there hopefully for a number of years yet you know it was fantastic last week absolutely fantastic to see him you know it's the sort of thing that I think everyone loves and it's great look Arsenal are a good team whatever reservations people may have about set pieces this or you know a lot of time wasting or whatever they're the best team in our league by some distance they might be they're certainly one of the best teams in europe they might turn out to be the best team in europe i see this is the you know we're all trying to read oh it means this or it means that or it means sometimes it's just about being better at the old football than the other lot and that's that's what happened with PSG and Chelsea it turned out you know you can do whatever you like with a you know with your notes on the sidelines or whatever team you want to pick or whatever PSG were better at the old football that's what happened with Arsenal better by Leverkusen that's what happened with Liverpool and Galatasaray sometimes it is no more complex than that so is the quadruple on yeah of course it is it's good it's funny we got we seem to come to this debate around this time we did it with Liverpool and things catch up but then they lose the final the Caraba Cup final coming up but this week this week could be massive for Arsenal I think you know to have the Dalman moment which was a brave call from Arteta but it was the right call a huge call brilliant call but really it has changed the mood massively you go into a Cup final on Sunday you win a Cup you have that double back to back moments yeah you fancy a moment you know if Man City won the Carabao Cup at the weekend we would be surprised I would certainly be surprised I think Arsenal are a better team than Man City at the moment and really what in many ways what needs to happen is Arsenal need to believe they're a better team than Man City because sometimes when the two of them come together Arteta still plays a little bit Arsenal still play a little bit within themselves whereas what you'd like to see Arsenal do is go right we can have it with you lot we can have it with you lot the way that Real Madrid had it with you lot the other night we can beat you you know and we don't have to you know contain and you know obviously I defend properly but you don't have to you know contain Man City as the priority we can just go and go to Man City we can beat Man City we're a better team than Man City which I think they are this season so and that's why I say you know when you say is the quadruple on?

41:07You go, well, yeah, because I'm looking at this and thinking, right, okay, who's going to beat him? Do I fancy Man City to beat him? No. Who are the next playing in the Cup? Southampton. Do I fancy Southampton beat him? No. Is the only one left in the FA Cup that would fancy to beat Arsenal? No. Right, now we look at, you know, they're going to win the league. Now we'll look at the Champions League. Is the only one that I fancy to beat Arsenal? Not until the final. And then you've got a punch at shots. Not until, I think there will be, I would fancy Arsenal to beat Barcelona and then if I'm looking at that and playing clairvoyant I've got them against Bayern Munich in the final and then you've got a puncher's chance because it's 90 minutes From the Manchester City perspective they kind of you know the start of this game against Real Madrid they started really well they had a number of chances Courtauld made some great saves and then the silver silver red card kind of decimated any chance for them Pete what I mean this is the inevitable question and Mark and I were talking about this in the lift and he laughed so I'm not going to ask him but the inevitable question is always what will Guardiola do is this the last time we see Guardiola in the Champions League like we know he doesn't know sorry you go he won't want to leave City having you know dropped out of the competition at this stage in consecutive seasons that will really irritate him and i think maybe you've got a sense of that from the way they play because they really went at it didn't they it really went real madrid obviously was doing the chelsea game so i didn't watch i only caught up with it um they really went for it um and they were undone by but you know the handball and it's one of those things when alice has never been sent off before in his career has he and it's clear it's one of those instinctive things like we can't go four nil down and you can you can understand that because once you've once it's you know four nil it's it's curtains isn't it um but it's it's it's very difficult to know and i i don't think pep baliola truly i don't know when i said he doesn't know i didn't mean pete doesn't know but i meant pep doesn't know i'm not sure he does know um but i can see all the reasons i can see the reasons for going if you if you're exhausted and you just you just don't think you can do it anymore which is what happened to jürgen klopp he just literally didn't think he could do it anymore but equally I can absolutely see Pete's point of view and I can see that you don't want you want to go out like Fergie don't you you want to go out that's everyone's dream is you go out like Fergie and you know there you go have the trophy I'm off it's very hard to do that it's very hard to do that if he does if this is his last season is one Champions League trophy with Manchester City how will that be looked back upon obviously they've gone out to Real Madrid in three consecutive seasons I think now, they defeat Chelsea in the final in 2021 they've only won one Champions League knockout tie since they lifted the trophy in 2023 do you feel that there's any underachievement there?

44:23Yeah, look it's a bloody hard I mean that's always his retort it's a bloody hard competition to win I mean people sometimes I do think people sometimes underplay things like that you know you think that oh you're in the Champions League last 8 or last 16 or last 4 well they should they should go on and win it and you go well it doesn't work like that if the World Cup was 4 teams right but the other 3 teams were Brazil France France and Argentina. It would still be bloody hard to win the World Cup. Or Scotland? No, Scotland. Not this time. Maybe next time. But, you know, it would still be bloody hard to win the World Cup.

45:10The Rugby World Cup would be very, very hard to win if it was New Zealand, France and Ireland. I mean, it would be a very good South Africa or whatever. It would be a very hard tournament to win. So this idea that once you've got the final in sight, you should just plough through and take it. I've never bought into that. It's been really interesting, this sort of rebuild, I suppose, if you want to call it that. We've seen what half a billion spent in the last 12 months or so by Manchester City. And you look at the signings of Semenya and Gehi, and you mentioned Fergie there. When you think about the end of Fergie's time, brought in Van Persie, just made a team that was functional enough to win the league and then out.

45:52And then there was a lot that needed to be done afterwards. maybe a touch of that I just bringing in Semenya and Gehi they've done smart signings obviously just get them in get them far in get us over the line done and then that's Donnarumma Donnarumma which sort of went against against what against what you know went to be James Trafford and then James Trafford had a couple of wonky games and it was like right get this bloke in it was you know a few people have said I've heard it said you know this seems like he tried to build a team to win the league or to win the Champions League and say goodbye.

46:28Yes. And to go out a winner. Because he's, you know, he always goes out a winner, but he hasn't had that many jobs, but he's always left on a high. You know. That's what I mean, because of the half billion spent, the latest stuff is much more short term than some of the stuff we saw a year ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Kusanov, Victor Rice. Like, there was a lot more forward thinking in that point of view. And then there's been a bit more. and City they need it they've made a difference to the team so it's not in that sense it doesn't make sense it's just when you're looking at it from Guardiola's perspective even if he hasn't decided that could have been influential because if you then go right this has got us over the line great suddenly it's a different feeling for him so then say right okay I'll step away but then is what they put together enough for him to want to then build that into a new thing because it's a different style as well it's not it's very different does he want to then compete with this style and try and finesse that.

47:25Is that what he wants to do? I mean, that's all part of the conversation he'll be having because like I say, I'm not convinced he knows. It's a very interesting thing, a very interesting statistic last weekend when they were playing West Ham and they made these changes and three players came on or whatever that had Manchester City at the bottom of the table for goals scored by substitutes this season. Bottom. And Arsenal... I think the one I saw with Arsenal in it, that was goals and assists. So I don't know if it would be different just for goals. But Arsenal are top and Manchester City are bottom.

48:03As if like... No impact from the bench. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But very little that is happening off the bench actually changes the game for Man City. Well, first opportunity to win Winston. I'm not saying I know what that means. That's a good start though, yeah. Who knows what it means? It's a good start though. You're saying Pets lost it, that's what he's saying. Yeah, lost it. you'll never make it first opportunity for both Arsenal and Man City to win their first piece of the silverware of the season extraordinary scenes in the AFCON decision this week where Senegal were stripped of the African Cup of Nations title Morocco were crowned in their place two months after that extraordinary final in Rabat when the game was delayed by about 17 minutes after Senegal had walked off the pitch during the final on January 18th because Morocco had been awarded a highly contentious penalty.

49:03And Senegal had one disallowed about a minute before that was incredibly harsh. Yeah. Sadio Mane eventually convinced the team to return. And the whole tournament looked fixed in Morocco's favour. You know, everyone had been saying it for about two or three rounds out that this doesn't look like. What Morocco were doing was dubious, to say the least. Well, this has stirred up a hornet's nest, to say the least. The grounds that Afgan have done this on is Article 82 of the regulation states if a team refuses to play or leaves the ground before the end of regulation time without the referee's authorisation, it will be considered the loser and eliminated from the competition.

49:45And the result will be 3-0 and they'll lose the match. how has it taken them two months to come to this decision? It's extraordinary. Have you ever known anything like this, Martin, in football? No, no. But if that's the rule, why was it not implemented on the night? Yeah, without the referee's authorisation is interesting because the referee clearly did authorise them to carry on. So I'm sure, yeah, they've gone off. But if we're putting it back down to what the official wants them to do, then it's quite interesting. The whole thing looked dubious as hell, didn't it? I mean, the tournament from all that stuff to do with the ball boys trying to nick the goalkeeper's towel so he couldn't dry his hands fighting with the sub goalkeeper and all this sort of stuff there is a feeling that Morocco's influence within the African Confederation is overwhelming now it is too great that they are this super power within African football and that that tournament you know was just as the host nation yeah it was steered towards them as the host nation and this was the outcome that it was meant to be, Morocco win the win AFCON in their own country it's very very hard to look at this as anything other than suspicious but also does it actually mean anything, I mean you saw a lot of like West Ham's El Hadj Malik Juve, Crystal Palace's Ismail Ossar, Sunderland's Habib Diara they all posted laughing emojis on social media, like does it actually mean anything, the guys have the medals, they're refusing to hand back the trophy you've seen some of the celebrations they opened up a bus, like all that was lived through, it's real memories, it happened does it actually mean anything?

51:33Well there was a few posts along the lines of well if you, here's the medal, if you want it, come and get it basically and you know, good luck with that in Senegal, but well does it mean anything well it depends it will say something in the record books or whatever I will never regard the AFCON champions as anything other than Senegal for 2026 I really won't but it does cast a shadow it matters because it casts a shadow it adds to the memory yeah and of course it's damaging for African football as well terrible night for poor Mamadou Sarr because obviously he makes a mistake after six minutes subbed off at half time goes back into the dressing room discovers he's lost his AFCON medal, which was really important to him personally because his dad, Papsar, was part of the 2002 famous Senegal side that went to the World Cup, did really well, missed the final in 2002 through suspension and they didn't win that year.

52:26So he did what his dad couldn't do. And then he finds out that he's lost it. So yeah, felt fun. That was a cracking team, that 2002 team. That really was. That really was. Yeah. Beat Argentina, didn't they? They were big fans in the first game, then get knocked out by Sweden on the Golden Goal, I want to say. I want to say, I think I was there. You know, you go to so much football. I don't want to tell you how old I was. You want to go to so much football and you think, did I have a dream? I don't remember. I'm pretty sure they lose to Sweden on the Golden Goal. And it was then that you realised what a poor idea the Golden Goal solution was because Senegal have been better than Sweden the whole way through.

53:16It goes to extra time. Senegal have murdered Sweden. They just can't score. It's going, it's going, it's going, it's going. And Sweden break away up the other end and go, boom. And it's over. And you're sitting there thinking, well, that ain't right. And it's like, you know, it's like when you're sitting in a room, you know, and you're half reading the paper, you're half watching the television, and your missus comes in and just turns the television off to save electricity. You go, hold on, I was watching that. I've got a producer, Neil, on my ear saying it was Turkey, not Sweden. Was it Turkey?

53:48It was Turkey, not Sweden. Thank you very much, Neil. There you go. See, that shows you. It all runs into one. It all runs into one big match. There have been a lot of games, yeah. It all runs into one big match. Turkey, not Sweden, yeah. But I was there. I want to say it was on Osaka, Neil. Was it in Osaka? I want to say it was in Osaka. Yes, there we go. See, I couldn't remember where I was. I just couldn't remember what the hell was going on but yeah but it was you just looked at it and thought nah this don't work this golden goal thing doesn't work they should they should at least get a little bit of time they should just be able to try to equalise it's not right because they were one of the real bright sparks of the tournament beating France well I'm not sure this decision will work for AFCO neither remarkable scenes right great to have you guys Martin Samuel thank you very much thank you for joining me we'll be back on Monday to run the rule over the Carabao Cup final and that huge game between Tottenham and Nottingham Forest and much much more.

54:43Hope to see you then.

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