City for the title? Chelsea chaos and end of year awards

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. So what was your moment of 2025? On today's show, we'll be dishing out some end-of-year awards and looking back at our favourite goals, matches and players. We'll also discuss the latest news and action too as Chelsea, Newcastle and Manchester City reach the League Cup semi-finals and FIFA try and fail to appease fans ahead of the 2026 World Cup. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the Sunday Times football correspondent and football journalist of the year, Johnny Northcroft, the former Millwall Marseille and Ireland striker Tony Cascarino and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is here as usual.

0:43Here we are, last show before Christmas for you, Gregor, isn't it? Is it? Yeah. You've got a week off, haven't you? Okay. Are you coming back in? Are you going to come back in for one more tune? Yeah, I think so. Oh, he loves the bloody podcast, doesn't he, listeners? He loves it. He actually just loves hanging out with me. That's what he really is. Just like you, Tony Cascarino, you weren't even due to be on this show. No. Then I saw you yesterday and you were like, please, Tom, I need to come in and talk about football one more time. before Christmas and we've got Johnny Northcroft all the way down on a train expensive train here on the Saffron unlike the Lutton yeah I make you come here I only do contractually obliged appearances yeah yeah absolutely well quite right as I said you are the football journalist of the year anyway we're getting some more awards in the second half of the show but let's do a little bit of a wrap up and I mentioned this on Monday's show Gregor I said we'd come back to talk about Chelsea so let's do that first a win against Cardiff in the League Cup but I I wanted to talk more about Enzo Maresco and his position as Chelsea manager because it's a fascinating one, I'm finding this.

1:41Speaking to Pete Rutzler, who covers Chelsea for us, and neither of us can work this out. Work out what on earth's going on. Makes the comments after a good win at the weekend against Everton, makes it all about him and his situation without any clarity. Someone's not supporting me. Tell us who, Enzo. No, no, I can't say any more than that. Doubles down on them in the press conference before the Cardiff game. Then has Chelsea fans singing his name. oh Enzo Mores what on earth is going it's so bizarre isn't it Chelsea are a weird old club aren't they Johnny they've been this way for years haven't they I mean the position of manager at Chelsea is not the same as the position of manager at any other club and that predates this current regime it goes back to Abramovich era where there's never been the sense that no matter how well the guy in charge is doing there's never been a sense of them being bulletproof even Jose wasn't bulletproof as we know and it's weird how you can go through a change of ownership and complete change of the guard and there's still a situation where factors that, as Enzo has brought to light again this week factors that you can't quite get to, even as journalists covering the club seem to affect the manager's position and I think in this case we believe that he's talking about support from the hierarchy but he hasn't spelt it out but this could have been this could have been Jose in 2006 having won two consecutive league titles and you know set all kind of records suddenly finding that Abramovich and his coterie people weren't as keen on him as he thought they should be and the dressing room wasn't there so I don't know I mean Enzo's struggled to fully connect with supporters I suppose and it's it's ironic that it's almost taken him to do this to get that bit of backing.

3:39But look, it's a project club, isn't it? It's a club where the owners make the signings. The signings are there for a long-term business plan. The coach, as Pochettino found, gets bust in and bust out depending on how well they fit the project. If I was Bedadig Bali or whatever, I'd be sitting here going, yes, but we were doing really well and we won the World Club Championship. And they did. That's where I kind of went. And they're saying some brilliant players. He's doing quite a good job, isn't he, overall? But the point is that the ownership would tell you that the project's doing well, not necessarily simply the coach.

4:13Tony, what do you make of all this with your former club? I mean, it is fascinating. Johnny summed it up nicely there. I just add, Chelsea's been a bonkers club for a long time. When I first joined, Ken Bates, some of the goings on at the football club, the dressing room was hilarious. Honestly, the young lads and the senior pros at Chelsea. Kerry Dixon, Vinnie Jones, Dennis Wise, then there was Frank Sinclair, Eddie Newton, Andy Myers, David Lee, Graham Stewart. Just unbelievable carry-on. I've said it's the maddest dressing room I've ever been in because it was so unprofessional to the absolute limit.

4:49Funny on a daily basis. But we are, I mean, that is, they're all great stories of mad times gone down, but it's mad in a different way now, isn't it? It's not fry-ups and ken-bates and all that. Like, yeah, but... It's this club that... The idea that... Even going back to Ken, who said this can be the biggest club in London, and we all laughed because he showed us a model of the idea of Chelsea. And he went, this would be the biggest club in London. And then years down the line, obviously Chelsea in the late 90s and into the 2000s become very successful. And the model is no one's safe. That's basically the model.

5:21So with Enzo speaking about he's the unhappiest 48 hours, I was thinking, well, what can it be? What is the problem? Please tell me what... what support are you looking for in like the second week of December after okay you've had a bad a tricky run of pictures after a really good one maybe everyone's thinking oh are you taking a step forward are they in the title race again you know they beat Barcelona there's this the kind of coming an age of like a young team and then everybody goes no it's not it's not so like is he feeling pressure from above is he feeling that there's an expectation level to make that next step now I mean timing is that's an interesting one because you think of the January transfer window so what discussions are taking place at the moment that might make a coach feel they're not getting the support I mean clearly this is the time clubs will be nailing down what they want to do in January perhaps those discussions have given Enzo a feeling that your vision's not necessarily the one that's guiding everything also if you think you're going to hold much sway at Chelsea and talks about transfers then you're delusional so like maybe he feels that he's got some credit in the bank but it's not the first time I've seen that from a manager you think I did you know I've done a really good job I deserve to be look at Nuno in the summer at Forest like I just got the club in Europe for the first time in 30 years let me at least be you know be a real voice in the room about what we're going to do in terms of transfers and bringing players into the summer and they went no they're fourth in the Premier League table eight points behind Arsenal who are top, as I said, into the League Cup semi-finals.

7:01Mixed results in the Champions League so far but will almost certainly get through to the next round in some form. Like he's doing a good job isn't he? He's kind of talking himself out of a job despite doing a good job. But he's doing a good job but from his perspective and I know we are trying to guess because he hasn't spelt it out. This guy built a team last year which took a while to come together but was brilliant in the second half of the season. Ended up finishing really strongly in the league. you know incredible run to get into the Champions League Ben goes and wins the Club World Cup and then what happens in the summer Project Chelsea kicks in and they start dismantling some of that team because they want to do more trading so like so Maduecki go and Nicholas Jackson goes and they buy more players who are dissimilar to the ones that they had before but younger players that need to be assimilated so Enzo has to start all over again and now he's got the team kind of you know over a difficult start and they're starting to fight again but from a coach's point of view you do want to build something I've got a lot of sympathy for how he's had to keep plates spinning how you have to keep assimilating new players into that team keep giving people minutes Do you think that comes back to the hiring of him in the first place where they clearly did quite a lot of shopping around for different coaches and stuff and it is this kind of project and you talked about trading there Johnny this kind of club hierarchy downwards where okay you're the coach we run the club we run the football operations and you're the coach you deliver on the pitch it's not unique that though not unique but it is very extreme it's a unique training model as ERA it's an extreme example extreme example but maybe for a coach he might be like I'm getting a Chelsea job from Leicester great big step up but after 18 months he goes actually it's pretty annoying now I spent some time with Enzo when he was at Leicester and he's incredibly into his coaching he's incredibly focused almost sort of nomically focused on just the bit on the grass and so on and maybe they thought in hiring a guy like that that he'd just be so entrenched entrenched in that that he wouldn't want to raise his head and start questioning wouldn't start asking people for things yeah just get the cones out Endo will you shut up and leave me alone although they saw in the first transfer sorry the first pre-season that that was not the case everyone was surprised instantly that he's quite punchy and he says what he thinks and he can dig a player out or say he's not doing that well enough so like you know if that's what they thought they didn't do due diligence Gregor the irony on all of this is that he's never had his name sung before and then when he spoke out the fans after the Cardiff they didn't play well in the first half Chelsea against Cardiff you know and ended up getting he made a few substitutions they've won the game and then you get the response of fans backing which he's never had because I was at the game against Everton did a piece last week on the game and it got to about the 20 minute mark and it was nil-nil and you could feel the grumblings.

9:54Chelsea hadn't started the game particularly well against Everton and then suddenly you felt the grunt and then suddenly Cole Palmer scores and then the game changed in that moment. Eventually, obviously 2-0. But I don't think he's... Even at Leicester, he had the grumblings from there. He did, yeah. So he's had that and probably thinking, I'm doing really hard work to try and create a team and the fans, as football fans do now, can turn in a very short period of time. and I felt he probably sensed that against Everton after 20 minutes because it got a little bit, oh no, you could feel it and then suddenly Kyle Palmer scores.

10:30Do you think there's part of it as well with coming back to the point I made about his hiring in the first place and his pedigree and Chelsea having hired so many big names and things like that that in this age of where fans constantly want the absolute best for their club, who are we going to sign, who are we going to make it better? There's this sense of a lack of permanence around Enzo Mareska even though regardless of how well he does he's just kind of keeping the seat warm for a bit to see how he gets on. There's no sense that this project that we keep referencing is his project to see through in the same way that, say, for example, Mikel Arteta's project at Arsenal is intrinsically linked to him.

11:04Definitely. And I don't think the hierarchy want it to be seen as his project. They want it to be seen as their project. You know, how public and how much of a presence of those owners been compared to the owners of the Cronkies at Arsenal or even loud old Sir Jim Ratcliffe isn't quite as entrenched with that United project as the Chelsea owners so there is that it's also when you come in succeeding Pochettino who did such an incredibly similar job to the end of it but such an incredibly good job of building having been given a whole lot of collection of players and then he just gets wiped out that means that right from the start people know your position is fragile I think I would say I would argue that probably the fans chorus in his name is more to do with a sort of sense of fatigue about the churn they don't want to see it's not that they're suddenly falling in love with him going oh don't please don't leave it's more like we can't go through this again we can't you know we don't want to see the back of another manager who is doing a pretty good job like they're not always in love and through all of his with his football and like you know as you say Johnny says like his obsession with coaching and sometimes doing some really imaginative things that we might like and analyse on the podcast but inside snapper bridge you're like crikey just like can we go forward and try and score some goals so it's not a loving but I think it's a sense of fatigue it's the same with the churn with the players it's just like I've had enough of this he has got a very good team and we'll see if they produce a performance on Saturday against Newcastle let's bring them in because they got through to the League Cup semi-finals of course current holders Eddie Howe's side important this one Johnny for Eddie Howe in particular after a fairly dismal derby performance against Sunderland, which obviously we mentioned on Monday's show mainly from the point of view of Sunderland, Gregor, but Newcastle having an odd season and so it continues.

12:57Another weird season, another weird team. Really weird season because some of the stuff they played last night was classic vintage Newcastle and made you think, wow, that's going well. Visa comes into the team just... Not going to get an easier goal than that though, I've got to say. No, it's not, but it was Murphy, classic Murphy Classic Murphy I'm not anticipating actually that goal in terms of what Visa's going to do for them as a kind of sign was better than him smashing it in from 40 yards it was exactly what you want Visa to be to be doing finished it really smoothly and he kept getting into those positions and you thought yep that's going to be that final piece that the team hasn't had since Isak but then as you say that comes after that comes after the limp display at the stadium So maybe it's that ceiling that Newcastle have found before where when they try and compete in the Champions League as well as other fronts, they struggle because they still don't have as big a squad as others.

13:58But I think if you're a Newcastle fan going away last night, you'd have been really excited about the thought of, OK, what's this team going to look like now? With Risa playing every week, maybe Volta Mard behind and that supply from the sides. Yeah, there's positive signs, as you said, but they've got a lot of injuries in defence. Dino Levermento picking up an injury last night. I ask this question all the time, and December's a good time to ask it. What is a good season for Newcastle? Win the League Cup again? Well, that'd be amazing, yeah, if they did that again. Champions League qualification, the priority?

14:34What is a good season? Yeah, qualifying for the next season for Champions League, I don't believe they've done that, have they? Certainly a long, long time. and then it's managing to maintain the sort of competitiveness on two fronts clearly winning another trophy would be immense but for their kind of the next stage in their evolution and it's being able to compete in the Champions League and stay in it for next season by staying in the top four or five in the Premier League Given the summer they had for them to be you know to win something would be amazing and I think this is almost like a survival season right from the start because of the Isak saga and and then survival is what qualify for Europe yeah yeah some of financial survival so yeah Europe again but if they can win something I think it'd be an amazing achievement I personally think his biggest challenge is going to be facing more vultures over his football club trying to snatch players like whether it's Gormerez whether it's Tannoli and others I think that's going to be a challenge for Eddie because they've he's got a lot of good players and then you've got Lewis Smiley who's come in and done really well and looks like he can be a player for them for a number of years yeah I think that's going to be a challenge but a good season for me they're a side that's capable at their best of being a top six club they just are that definitely has to be the aim for Newcastle let's just finish with Manchester City looking ominously good Johnny we talked about it on Monday's show Ryan Cherky as well all these players that we were thinking how good are they are starting to show they're actually really bloody good actually scored an excellent goal last night we discussed this on Monday's show chap so just for Tony and Johnny are they in the driving seat now City in terms of basically a lot of the trophies particularly the title do we think?

16:18I wouldn't say driving seat but I mean God if I put my house on one of them it would probably be them now and I can't believe that's turned around so quickly given where Arsenal were about a month ago but they have got that they have got that ominous City run going and they're just they're so loose there's an aura about it isn't there this is what we were talking about on Monday's show the way they beat Palace and you know even last night's game the manner in which they're winning these games now just looks like they're A not even at full tilt and you know they've got all these talented players around them transition didn't last very long no it's a pretty quick transition should have been down to 10 men hey yes should have been down to 10 men should have been down to 10 men could have been very different yeah they've got I mean look they've got the best striker in the world possibly apart from Mbappé you know they've got the footballer of the year of a year ago back to his very best in Foden Cherki's such a special player Rodri hasn't come back yet but he might you know we know how good the defenders are Nico Riley's one of the best young talents to come through in England for years they've got Donnarumma in goal I mean it's and then they've got a fairly reasonable manager so they're well set aren't they yeah sorry Tom I thought you were going to say something can I add more to what Jonathan said yeah you course you can that's the whole idea it's a podcast Everything that I'm thinking, Jonathan just said.

17:40That's why he's the best in the business. Do you want me to add in? Harlan getting injured? Maybe a possibility? That might. What did he have last year? Four months off? Was it four months? I think they're looking like a team that would be all right even if Ireland Harlan did get injured. That's the thing. I totally agree with what Johnny said about O 'Reilly. Every single game, every passing week, you think this guy is exciting. I saw a piece on Sky Sports website last week and it was like, he's 6 foot 4 there were a load of stats in it I didn't think he was 6 foot 4 I thought a lot of that was his hair he's 6 foot 4 he's in the top 10 fastest players in the Premier League so far recorded and City's fastest clearly you watch him play and you think he demonstrates a lot of the things he's a number 10 like the midfielder's attributes and working in small areas and stuff but he can still as a fullback do the galloping if he's quick and he works on his 1v1 defending he can be good enough to do that as well there's still question marks well that's what I was going to say my immediate question is because we're going to talk about the World Cup in a second is he now England's first choice left back do we think John I do he's elevated and he's made a later on for that because you think Lewis Skelly was in possession then Liveramento but yeah I think he is he scored four assists since he made his breakthrough that's pretty good numbers for a left back yeah I think he's really really exciting I would add to say about size I remember watching you know when you see the lads in the lineups coming up and I remember thinking he's unbelievably big yeah he looks like a number nine yeah he's got personality as well I saw him at Orient last what January wasn't it in the FA Cup really really difficult game for City and they threw in a lot of their young players they had Kushanov and Victor Vita Rice in the team and they struggled like okay they're coming from you know foreign leagues and so on but O 'Reilly loved it yeah I think it was one of his first games and he absolutely loved it it was a really good game as well the doubt of throwing him into England in the World Cup is they think he's just making his play but he just went to the Bernabeu and scored he's playing against some of the best players in the world he will do that through this Champions League run he's banking a lot of experiences really quickly and like so I don't I think even when you look at his the alternatives he's playing regularly for one of the best teams in Europe I can't remember a full-back that big Can you?

20:08Dan Byrne spent a bit of time out there He's a centre-back playing full-back I can't ever remember a full-back being that big Probably the number 10 playing full-back As we've discussed many times There are no full-backs anymore Particularly left-backs Anyway, we'll move on from a lament from Gregor Robinson About the death of a full-back And talk very briefly just about two stories this week To do with the World Cup Firstly, FIFA's little attempt to make fans feel a little bit better about the cost of ticket prices. FIFA announcing£45 World Cup tickets for a lucky few after a fan backlash. Matt Lawton and Martin Ziegler writing, cheaper tier introduced in a climb down over extortionate prices, but it will only cover 1.6 % of the seats.

20:49So that was the first one that I didn't necessarily think was a particular kind of concession to fans. However, just as we're recording this, Matt Lawton writing on the Times website now that FIFA is facing further outrage from supporters, hoping to follow next summer's World Cup finals after it emerged. A charge has been applied for entry to the official fan zone for the first time. So supporters heading to the ground will be hit with a charge of$12.50 around£9.30 just to get into a FIFA fan festival. I mean, do they need... What is going on? I mean, my one question to you, Johnny, as the man going out there to follow England, we're heading into a slightly worrying sense that this World Cup will not be about football.

21:32It's a worry for me. It's already not about football, is it? And if we think back to Qatar, if we deluded ourselves that that was going to be the World Cup where it was all about politics and how can we not just get back the football, I'm sorry, but this is the era of FIFA now. It never is about the football with them. And this World Cup's already feeling like a bit of a money grab and a circus in different ways. and the fan experience is going to be difficult, to say the least. I mean, the concession, as I understand it, means that there's 400 tickets available now at this 45 pound tier. There's 600 top cappers in the England travel club and the top cappers are those that have got the maximum points because they've been over a period of years to all the England away games.

22:25So all those trips to watch in Andorra and Albania, these are the people who've put in the miles. And yet, even among that group, only 400, only two-thirds, or we'll get the cheaper tickets. You're going to have a situation where you'll have an England fan with a£45 ticket sitting next to an England fan who's paid 500 quid for exactly the same seat. That's not great. £12 to get into a fan zone? I mean, you'd have to pay me to go to a fan zone, to be honest. And I think it's$72 to get a parking space. And FIFA saying, hey, this is America. Come and join the genuine tailgating experience. This is our preferred mode of transport to get to Groundsville, by the way.

23:08$72, please. See, it's quite a weird one because sport, I mean, I remember inquiring about the Masters a few years back, going for like one day before the Wednesday, so it's a practice day, and Thursday and Friday, but not the final two days. And I was quoted nearly$30 ,000. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like a package. Peanuts to you, Tony. No, no. And I was like, I'm not paying that, OK? Yeah. Because it's just, to me, it was just extortionate. And if you go through the revenue of World Cups, it's literally nearly doubling all the time. Yeah. And then, obviously, the profits are way up for FIFA.

23:41But this World Cup looks like being a World Cup is going to create$14 billion. Yeah. OK? That's nearly double of what the previous World Cup was. Yeah, absolutely cracking. So it is a cash cow. Yeah. And it's charging. you remember this because you was obviously there Qatar with the Barclays you know Barclays you couldn't buy anything could you you had to literally have a Barclay card to buy it so I'd say have you got a Barclay card because I didn't have a Barclay card no I'll buy this because everything Barclays bought the right to be used in every stadium Scotland have made it Gregor you don't look particularly sad about the idea of not going now we've been trying to start the Gregor Robertson crowdfunding to get you out of there I'm not sure we're going to have enough money in the crowd to get you anywhere near it I've been getting sent emails from PR saying here's one of these packages that Tony sent is like$15 ,000 or whatever they've obviously got the tickets guaranteed there you go wait a minute,$15 ,000 for all three games?

24:39there are different packages you can get ones that are like for two games, for three or you can follow the team throughout you could imagine what that goes but they've got the guaranteed tickets the commercialisation of this has just hit new heights and we all know about it you know people Matthew Sider a piece of data we never we never fought back we never pushed back you know because you're trying to I think he said described it as feeding off their crumbs you still want to if you're the one who kicks up a fuss you're not going to get a World Cup down the line you're not going to you know it's a sad state of affairs but the vibes the vibes are taking a dip guys let's have a little break and come back let's buzz off some football awards I'll just disagree with you I still think like I agree this will be a noisy World Cup for news but the football still always takes over I'll remind you I know though isn't that whatever they do yeah that's why they can do it whatever they do they've got this little bit of dopamine they're going to give us a reminder of that when Scotland have lost all three games and you're desperate to talk about Donald Trump but anyway we'll come on to that in the second part of the show it doesn't have to go not when the second half of the show is about Scotland this moment of 2025 no brainer let's get there in just a second but first a little question from Bill Edgar's weekly quiz.

25:54Who is the only Newcastle player to win the BBC's Goal of the Season competition, which began in 1970-71, but that this winning goal came in 2012? Find out after the break.

26:15Welcome back to The Game football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Tony Cascarino, Gregor Robertson and Johnny Northcroft. It was a bit of a team effort on the quiz question today. I wasn't. I mean, you didn't even give me the full answer. You said that Cissé bloke. I just saw him play it wide and show it all. Yeah, exactly. So you should have got it even quicker. Honestly, he's so competitive, listeners. He pretends to be Mr. Jolly Nice Scotsman. Actually, ruthlessly competitive. Chaps, let's talk about 2025 and football. We're talking there about FIFA and not talking about football.

26:50Let's just have a big love buzz about how wonderful the game is and has been this year. Johnny, I wanted to start with a bit more of a kind of general brief discussion about the year and what we've seen. Because it's been a really interesting kind of sprawling, tactical, stylistic year of where we both fell in love with PSG and this brilliant, intense football that they play. But we've also seen back here a far more direct style come out. Teams not happy to cede possession. what have you made in terms of the kind of development that the game has made and see if you can get through with that before Gregor jumps in and bangs on about physicality which he's going to do in about 30 seconds sitting in a year ago I think I'd just written a piece about how boring I was finding a lot of modern football I did feel we'd got to a point then where a lot of coaches were following the same sort of Pep Guardiola inspired formula you were seeing teams playing this sort of very heavily controlled positional style coached by numbers lots of imitations and not enough variety not enough emphasis on on the individual players and you know I would go to games and see a situation where I just had deja vu all the time they're coming through midfield I know the ball's gone wide now and this run's going to get made they're just going to go back and it's going to go out the other side Now look, we still see, of course, that's part of watching football as you get older.

28:19And I'm not saying that's completely disappeared. But I think it's been a year where Variety's come back, where those positional heavy coaches like Guardiola, like Luis Enrique, have actually found ways to innovate again, particularly Enrique with the insane number of rotations and levels of intensity, as you said, that the PSG play at. So they're still a very tightly controlled style of football, but within it, you've got Hakimi popping up at Stryker. You've got Dembele going everywhere. You've got Vettinha, the sort of fulcrum of the team, being number six, but also driving forward. Lots of different stuff happening, and that's the best team.

29:00That's been the best team. You've seen Pep starting to go back to, I think, building the game more around his players, around Haaland's characteristics, Foden's, playing with two number tens. Brilliant. And then on top of that, we've seen coaches like Thomas Tuchel have talked about trying to find ways to break this game that gets stuck in the middle of the pitch by accelerating the game a bit more. And that's before you get to the long ball revolution. I haven't necessarily enjoyed that from a style point of view. watching a player take two minutes to line up a giant long throw isn't really...

29:40That's not what I was crying for a year ago. I wasn't saying, let's give us some of that. But I like variety. I like coaches trying to win games in different ways. I do think with the long ball and set piece stuff, it might be over already. Do you think it's done? A brief little trend of about three months and now we're back to passing it around all the time. Well, when's the last long throw goal? I can't remember. I think it's already fading into memory and if you look at the top of the Premier League it's Arsenal, Manchester City Aston Villa, Chelsea they're the four most you know, four most Pep affiliated teams, two of Pep's disciples, Unai Emery who thinks Pep's the greatest ever and has also tried to borrow his ideas and is very controlled in his style of coaching and teams, if you look at them statistically, none of those teams play long they're pretty much the four teams that play the fewest long balls with Liverpool who I think are six being also in that so is it a bit of a was it a bit of a blip or is it back as a kind of tactic for some of the smaller teams but the top teams are still going to keep playing I mean the trend over the years has been more possession more control of the game less long ball second ball set pieces and I think that's continuing but hey it's been nice to see something different on the pitch yeah definitely Tony well I was I was out last Friday and I went out with a couple of pals and we were talking about the fun of football and a lot of them were, you know, as we get older, we all get nostalgia at Howie, who was great and blah, blah.

31:08And I said, like, the modern game lacks a bit of fun in some sort. And we were trying to think of ways. And funny enough, I said, what about the long throws then? What do you think would be more fun if we did long throws? And they were all thinking of ideas. And I went, what about if we did the rugby thing? You could pick up a player. Pick them up. Like a line-up. They could head it. Like a line-up. Yeah. I said, what do you think that would make it funny? maybe if you had like a line out like chip like an option where you could once a game once a game you had to use it at the right time yeah a wild card yeah so you get like Dan Byrne lifting Joe Linton onto his shoulders wow once a game to get on the end of a long throw just to make it I do agree with you though it does lack a bit of a kind of personality yeah personality fun just something in the game that I don't know even in you know go through the 80s and then the Maradona sort of stuff that would happen in a game and just teams the way they did things.

32:04I felt there was a lot more humour in the game. Yeah. Where with now, everything is robotic. It's just robotic, it's functional, and obviously it's brilliant to watch at times because you have exciting teams. But there is part of football that we have to go, come on, there has to be a bit more. Everything's military-based. Whether it's VAR, whether it's the referee, the linesman, and you can't say this, and you're getting sending-offs or players that have reacted to something. I don't know, I think we've just took it too far. Gregor, Mr Physicality? Physicality dominates a lot of us. I've spoken about that, so I'm not buying on about that.

32:38But let's talk about what Tony was just talking about. Look at Cherokee's sort of emergency. Yeah, yeah. And the fact that Pep signed him. He wouldn't have signed a player like a Cherokee. He wouldn't have signed... There's a few... I don't think... I think he's recognising that you need to give the players themselves like some license to create a bit of magic and it's actually fascinating to see some of his comments recently he's like he was asked about Cherki last night he said what a goal after that he didn't play well but before that and with the goal he was fantastic same with Foden at the weekend they were like Foden that goal he's like yeah he was poor so I don't know it's like he's got this internal conflict about giving these guys a bit of license and a great moment but he's still not doing the thing I'm asking him to do a lot of the time I don't know about the like I think set pieces are here to stay everyone always says the game will find a way to try and like combat it I just don't think it's been done quite as smartly as this before and maybe you know maybe you think you need more and more physical players it's like there's always a kind of balance a balance scales and it's like it tips one way and then you know Johnny's talking about the players the teams that have got the most dominance possessionally Pressing has dropped off So like It used to be That's kind of One reason for Possession To not be Prized so much Is because teams Were so good at pressing But now teams aren't Doing it as much Then that maybe Creates an opportunity For them to try and Play it from the back again Like Villa are doing So successfully You watch them at the start Of the season And sometimes you think What are you doing He did it at the weekend Konsa On the edge of his own box Like Not the edge of his On his goal line Like so there's still Moments like that But a lot of teams Aren't pressing in the way They used to So maybe that this opening up it's just I think it's more interesting than it's been for a long time though because of the variety I agree with Johnny like up to a point that there were too many MTAs and I think like it was like there's also just been a few flags in the sand almost Russell Martin yeah they just went pfft this is stupid like I'm not not blaming Russell Martin like alone but what he tried to do with players who weren't good enough people looked at and thought this is madness it's gone too far Arsenal the success of their set place people go right okay we've got to do this and then it's just and then you watch PSG the best team in the world boot it out from kick off and you go hang on we don't have to be like dogmatists we don't have to have all these ideals we can actually have some variety and you know take some influences from the past even it's okay so like that's interesting absolutely interesting enough need more fun or maybe just line outs from throw-ins do get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk with your ideas for Tony I love it I'm here for it I think it'd be crackers anyway let's do some of our awards to end the year and let's start with the best match that you saw live Johnny I've mentioned them already PSG the Champions League final was just extraordinary in Munich the level of performance was insane you're talking about a game where we'll be remembering it in the same way that we remember Real Madrid 7 Eintracht Frankfurt 3 and the great AC Milan winning 4-0 against Barcelona PSG were that good you know against an Inter Milan team which are really experienced and good savvy campaigners in Europe just completely blew them apart I think they thought Hakimi popping up to score the first goal in his striker position Dway taking over you know just such a subtle elegant young player Dembele everywhere Vettinia driving through for the third goal Cavetskilly and then a kid comes on from the Youth Academy of PSG just to emphasise how far PSG have come Mayolu and scores the fifth and you have the back story of Luis Enrique PSG fans are incredible it was just a brilliant occasion and the best performance in a major final I've seen Tony?

36:50I'm going to go Crystal Palace Bournemouth a 3-3 game oh nice for the first hour Bournemouth had put on the best performance I've seen of any Premier League team this season for 60 minutes they were phenomenal the pace of their place the menu was superb just interchanging positions speed all over the pitch defended well then it got to 2-2 then it looked like only Palace were going to win Bournemouth got a lead again and then obviously Palace get back and it was just ended up 3-3 and it was a great game and I thought these two clubs that are overachieving can produce what I saw on that day. Because Palace were totally outplayed, but found a way.

37:31And it's the strength of Crystal Palace, is that even in a difficult moment, and Bournemouth were unbelievable for an hour, that they could find a way in that game. And it was such an entertaining one. And Mateta missed the absolute sitter to make it 4-3, right on the death. It had everything that game. Yeah, absolutely. Definitely worth a shout out for Palace when we're talking about looking back on this year. Gregor your game that you saw live your best one of the year PSG again against Aston Villa though the second leg it was 3-2 to Aston Villa Villa Park jumping absolutely jumping oh it was incredible for so many reasons I mean first half maybe not entire not even the whole first half but it was just PSG the dynamism the speed of them just watching them in the flesh seeing Barclough open up down the line seeing Hakimi and Nuno Mendes both full backs score they're opening two goals to make it 2-0 you thought oh this could be really embarrassing for Villa then Telemann's got a goal back then Super John McGinn after half time barreled his way through and then Villa could have they could have possibly like snatched it I think Konza was it Konza had a sitter not a sitter but a kind of didn't put his head out Marcus Rashford was kind of really stepped up in the second half so like part of it was to see PSG in the flesh and part of it was Villa's sort of like remarkable response in the second half and almost upsetting the odds yeah I mean for me obviously don't get to as many games live being an editor in the office best live game I saw Lincoln's 3-1 win against Luton of course but just a couple of other ones to mention from being in the office Barcelona into Milan that semi-final second leg absolutely bonkers first leg too and the first leg as well of course a quick shout out to England's women in the Euros for basically making every game incredibly entertaining not necessarily great quality all the time but always delivering the drama but I think probably the one to watch from an office point of view for the drama and the occasion was Newcastle beating Liverpool in the league Cup final because Liverpool have been so imperious that season to that point and watching it unfold and seeing the job Newcastle were doing on them and going, oh my god this is working, they're going to win this, they're in charge, they're going to do this was a brilliant one to see unfold.

39:36What about best moment of 2025 then? Kaz I'll start with you. For a number of reasons, Johnny mentioned it earlier, Leighton Orient against Man City and it wasn't just the game, it was the faces of the people in the office when I went along because our boss is the Leighton Orient family. and everybody had these suspicions that my contract was coming to an end on me that I'd done it for no other reason and then Tom was looking at me yeah I did and a few others Joe all I'm saying is that you went for this meeting with James about your future with us and then came back and came up to me and said Tom I'd love to go to Leighton Orient if that's alright and I'm like doesn't your book start with how to get a new contract yes it does he's a master he's a master of it it was a good fun game as well But it was a great occasion watching and then sitting there and listening to Pep getting questioned by a journalist when the journalist said to him, it's Leighton Orion.

40:28Yes. Because he just went, oh, Leighton. And he literally says to Pep, it's Leighton Orion. Yes. And Pep, okay. I don't really watch lots of new content. But that was funny. A good fun moment in the FA Cup. Johnny, best moment of 2025? Oh, I mean, well, I was tempted to say the Scottish Cup final penalty shootout, but that would give Gregor some grief. He needs a bit of grief, that's fine. Aberdeen winning a trophy at last, it was fantastic. Yeah, it was fantastic. But it was trumped by what Scotland did on November 18th. And probably a single moment, I don't know, the one I've relived the most is probably the moment that Stevie Thompson on co-commentaries just goes, shoot when Kenny McLean winds it up and that just that there was a brilliant moment when you get a long range goal from your own half where the ball's airborne and it's that split second when you realise it's on and the keeper's scrambling and the trajectory looks right but that was also the commentary as well he then followed it up going it's in it's in he's done it he's done it

41:43I think maybe we should have been having flowers of Scotland just playing slowly in the background for most of this segment, shouldn't we? Definitely a worthy mention there, Johnny. Gregor, can you think of anything non-Scottish based for your best moment of 3035? No chance. No chance. But my moment is Ciarán Tierney's. It's funny, because I said to you before, that was the moment where it's like, I don't know, it was just the joy. And his face, the look on his face when Tierney was running off, like, stony-faced, like, do you realise what you've done? Do you realise what you've done? How can you be this cool?

42:16How can you be this hard man? That was just incredible. Yeah, that was the moment, as I said, I punched the ceiling. And then the moment Johnny's talking about is when you fall to your knees. Isn't it something special about watching a goal where you're literally seeing the line of the ball and you can all watch it just go in and it's getting away? And it seems like slow motion on its way. Yeah, when it fell to him and he's running in, he's just kind of gambled and running. You're just like, that's the same. there's a shorter moment of possibility but it's like and then yeah yeah absolutely very worthwhile mention just to a couple from me Michel Adjaman's goal for England against Italy because that was the kind of ultimate summed up their tournament where you just thought can they score will they score they are going to score they always score Cristiano Ronaldo getting sent off against Ireland has got to be absolutely wonderful wonderful and then win nine after his suspension yeah exactly two or three days after absolutely absolutely fantastic and then one for me when I was editing it's always good fun when you're editing on a live night on a Champions League night Declan Rice two free kicks against Real Madrid two absolutely brilliant barnstorming free kicks was really special moments let's move on goal of 2025 the best goal you've seen this can either be live or one that you saw on the telly best goal of 2025 Gregor I'll start with you those Declan Rice ones were up there actually but also I don't think I've ever seen the goal that Mickey van de Ven scored like scored by a defender like that particularly the centre half surging run from his own half.

43:46I mean, you know, I'm just trying to find a way not to say Scott McTominay. That's good of you. That's the good of you. It's good of you. I mean, we should probably say that Scott McTominay's overhead kick for Scotland is the best goal. It's got to win. We should give him that, should we, Kaz? We'll let him have that. So the challenge should probably be the Scott McTominay goal of the year award for someone other than Scott McTominay because he's in everyone's list. So yeah, Declan Rice can be your backup, your honourable mention, if you like. Johnny? Yeah, okay. so McTominay's got our own push gas award hasn't it?

44:17I'll go to one I saw live it was Eze in the FA Cup final more because it was a goal that just reeked of Crystal Palace and what Glasner has done with him Munoz going down the right taking a ball from Mateta crossing it's just such an effortless silky Eze sort of finish and he scored better goals in the semi-final against Villa in the quarterfinal against Fulham I was there for both of them but I love a goal that means something more than a goal that's just spectacular but not quite as important and that is the biggest goal in Crystal Palace's history and the whole cup final was a brilliant sort of reward for them and brilliant game to report on On the same line there I'd also say Tommy Watson's goal for Sunderland in the 95th minute at Wembley that's like there is no I know I always say this Champions League yeah it's the most prestigious trophy but there's no more sort of like impactful victory than a victory in the playoff final like I would say like you win a trophy it's the end of a journey this is like it alters the future and so in that moment that turnaround it's like the atmosphere the joy in the Sunderland and the oh my god they've won it element of Sunderland in that game as well and it was such a cool classy finish too he just stroked it passed it into the corner so that was a great moment yeah like Palace Sunderland well worth a mention when we're reflecting on 2025.

45:43Tony, your goal of 2025? I'm going to go for Anthony Alanga in the goal against Manchester United. A bit similar to Mickey van der Ven, who ran 85 metres on his own. Players chasing him, literally going round. For Forrest, yeah? For Forrest, against Manchester United. Look, he was a former Manchester United player as well and they sold him for 15 million and he's done this amount. But the fact that he's carrying a ball, he's travelled with the ball the speed of literally an Olympic final a 100-meter runner. You know, and he's done it for such a long distance. So I thought that was one of the great goals.

46:17And look, there was absolutely rightly so. There was a number of goals with the importance of big occasions. In terms of importance, I just wanted to give an honourable mention for Lucy Bronze's goal for England against Sweden when again, England down and out and you thought they had nothing. And there's a great moment, I was watching it back this morning, where Chloe Kelly, one of the superstars and super subs, is screaming, give me the ball, give me the ball. And she eventually gets the ball, crosses all the way to the back post and it's one of those crosses where you can see it's going to oh my shit she's there she's going to score Lucy Bronze heads it in and then boots the advertising hoardings in frustration of come on then find out afterwards she played most of the tournament with a broken leg and she's still booting the hoardings absolutely fantastic but my goal of 2025 Emmy Buendia for Aston Villa against Tottenham that goal where you just watch footballers and you think Christ you are good at what you do because it had to Matty Cash with a half volleyed switch of play from his own halfway line when he could have brought it down and passed it Dina bringing it out of the air with his left foot then playing a first time pass into a player we'd kind of forgotten about until this season who sashays his way through the defence and passes it into the bottom corner that was a goal I was in the office going wow footballers in 2025 are class absolutely brilliant let's finish with our wishes for 2026 then and Kaz I'll start with you oh my wishes to get another contract at the time now I'm alright for another year now I probably look this is a bit of an old one but I find I just don't want the game to become any softer as in the handball rules the simple little touches that people are falling to the ground I just hope we don't keep going around this sort of handball way of playing basketball by the way in America suffered enormously with less contact you know viewing figures have dropped enormously and I don't want football to keep going down this road well eventually there will be a line in the sand where we go it's unwatchable if you can't even commit an arm or just you know without blame and fouling I just hope the game doesn't get any softer than where we are now yeah Johnny oh this is a very old man-ish thing but that's a well I've just done that me too yeah yeah I just want everyone to calm down a little bit not just in my own household but in the football world generally just in life just generally Calm down, calm down would be a great mantra for 2026.

48:39Who's to use that line? Calm down, calm down. Shall everyone chill out? Harry Ed Films. No, yeah, let's just all sit there. No, look, this is more about our industry and maybe directed more at the online part of it, but I'm just, I've got a middle-aged man's weariness of everything having to be a massive judgment, an instant judgment, and an exaggerated judgment. and it's really wearied me this year looking at the treatment in particular of Arnie Slott and Mo Salah and everything that's happening at Liverpool just this idea that this guy must go he must be sacked before he leaves the stadium we've lost four games in a row and yeah, I know we won the league and he managed to succeed the Arden Klopp but this is the worst manager we've ever had he spoke up with Jacob Murphy in a press right, the biggest idiot you've ever seen in your life Same with Mosal Mosal's finished He's useless He's really past it It's not just Liverpool I think that's a big example Pep was finished Pep was an idiot A year ago Wasn't he You know Arteta's He's a genius But now he's not a genius He's blowing the league already I know I know this is You know The industry that we're part of I know that We've got an online world Where everyone's Desperate to get attention So they have to say The most dramatic thing Everyone's You know Every young player the GOAT already this is the greatest goal in history this is the best team we've ever seen and it's like I love it calm down the worst goal we've conceded the worst goal the biggest dod we signed this player the worst player we've ever had yeah yeah well actually Aberdeen do have literally I'm not going to name them but one of our one of our team my mate texted me this is the worst place ever played for Aberdeen oh it's not exaggerating so yeah can we just can we just calm down can we just remember what happened can we stretch our memories back more than a few weeks and remember other things that have happened in football and maybe other things that somebody who's playing or coaching football has done before just context and patience Johnny in 2026 those are the words a nuance please I think you're dreaming but anyway it's a good dream it's nice to dream Gregor your dream for 2026 I'm not near as profound as that I just really want to beat Haiti that's much more that's much more important Johnny because imagine the outcry if it don't I should say I should say listeners that Gregor said that with his head in his hands I really want to beat Haiti in the way that you're like already worried about whether you will or not that's it that's it he's now staring off into the distance I didn't say win the World Cup I'm not stupid I just want to be Haiti I'd take a draw right now

51:23oh dear there we go Gregor Robinson already dreading the Scotland's performances in the 2026 World Cup just a couple from me and I mean this in a nice way I don't want City to win the league no offence City fans because I think if they do Pep will wander off into the sunset and I want another year of Pep Guardiola I also want the football at the World Cup to be brilliant which I think it will and Gregor I banged on about this no VAR in the Football League keep it out leave it I don't care how bad the decisions are don't come anywhere near it with the technology we'll leave it there but do get in touch with me with your goals of 2025 moments of 2025 and your wishes for 2026 we'll be continuing this theme on the next couple of shows so I'll definitely be reading out your suggestions tom.clark at the time.co.uk but we'll leave it there for now Tony Cascarino, Johnny Northcroft and Gregor Robinson thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening we'll be back on Monday we'll see you then