City join title race but is football boring now?

0:03Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times watch out Arsenal Pep Guardiola and the lads are on the charge. Manchester City beat Liverpool in comprehensive fashion to close the gap at the top of the Premier League to four points. A statement win which suggests we might have a proper title race on our hands. City's chances have improved thanks to Sunderland's late equaliser against leaders Arsenal. And on today's show we'll discuss both those games, another away defeat for Newcastle, and we'll debate our favourite footballers who played on into their 40s as we hear about a striker still scoring aged 50.

0:37I'm Tom Clark and joining me today we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the football reporter and tactical analyst Hamza Khalid Lunat, and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is alongside me as usual. Hamza, it's been so long, man. Where have you been? I've been out and about, up and down. Up and down, out and about. Just not on the podcast. Just not on the podcast. Well, it's desperate measures because we've all given every opinion we possibly can on Liverpool already this season. they've lost again so we're calling in the recruits aren't we Gregor let's do it we've got nothing else to say I'm sure we probably have listeners we've got loads to say we're playing something it was an amazing game a really startling game actually for me let's start with City from that point of view yeah it reminded me tell me what you reminded me of it reminded me of my Auntie Jones 80th birthday party I knew you were going to say that how did I know you were going to say that because it's his Pep 7 no 1 ,000th game in charge 1 ,000th game We're number 716.

1:36And that really is time to start thinking about being reflective and when will he retire or when will he go on another sabbatical. And people are talking like that about my Auntie Joan. Well, you know, she might not be quite up for the party, but, you know, you've got to go. It's compulsory to go, but she might be a bit tired. She was the life and soul. She loved every minute of it. It gave her a new life and she loved having everyone around her. Pep Guardiola was exactly the same. I've not seen him looking that happy and engaged and up for another thousand games. It's really not that long ago we were discussing whether he had the fight in him because last season was so disappointing for City.

2:20It's as though having this marker, this sort of milestone, instead of making him think, I've spent too much of my life in football, it made him think, actually, let's have a bit of fun So he's starting to look more relaxed and generous-spirited. I mean, Doku had the game of his life. And the first thing he said was, that's not down to me, folks. That's just in him. You know, I'm just a quite good manager. I let these players express themselves. I think Liverpool's first-half performance helped them a little bit. Yeah, of course. But I think it's ominous for the rest of those thinking they might be in with a chance of, well, there's only one team really thinks of them with a chance of a title.

3:01is it's about his lust for life. Yeah, definitely. And I mean, Martin Samuel's written about that on the Times website this morning, saying, you know, this is why he's still here. This is why he's been in English football for so long. I mean, there's the other part of it where I start thinking, he's just going to win the title and walk off into the sunset, as they always say. Greg, yeah? Yeah, I think that's what I'll do. Yeah. Well, look, if he wins it. No, I mean, it's funny. It was a brilliant performance, though. I agree with Alison. and you saw the energy and the vivacity and everything. But there have been moments this season as well when you look at him and think the opposite.

3:35I think he looks haunted at times and thinks like football's moving on and where am I going to fit into this? So there might still be ups and downs in that regard. But it was good to see him on his thousandth game looking full of life. And they were fantastic City, weren't they? I mean, the pace that they've got in their side now. We talk about Doku being brilliant. O 'Reilly as well was fantastic. Great. I mean, there wasn't a dud performance in there, apart from Erling Haaland missing that penalty. Good save. Good save. Very good save, but poor penalty. Do we think City overall then, I mean, I've done that big toppy intro about watch out Arsenal, they're coming.

4:11Overall, from what we've seen this season, does it feel like it's starting to click? As I keep caveating, that Liverpool first half we'll come on to in a minute, but does it start to look like they've got the legs in them, that this is the new version of Pep Guardiola? Hamza, what do you think? You talked so much last season about he's a team in transition and that's why, as Gregor has already alluded to, maybe there's too much building to do. But does it look like he's actually got the building blocks in place and it's all starting to click now? I think that was actually evident in the first match of the season when they played Wolves.

4:43And that's when we asked Pep afterwards. Well, first of all, he mentioned what you just mentioned there about the pace. He said, we want to use pace more this season. We want to be a bit more direct. and we asked him then, like, City fans have this chant, City back, hello, hello. They sang it last season a bit and then they lost it. Then they stopped singing, yeah. And Pep said a few times, he's like, they've said that, we're not back yet. And they sang it again in the Wolves match and he said, yeah, think about when they sang it last season. We'll see. And it's entirely reasonable after one match to go, okay, we'll see.

5:13Good signs, but we'll see. But I think those same strands that were evident in that match have carried through and, okay, yes, they lost to Spurs and they lost to Brighton as well. And dropped points at Villa as well. Yeah, they lost to Villa recently, which ended a good streak. But I think largely they look like a much more robust team than last season. They are direct. They do channel play to Haaland a lot and in a way that you think that, oh, if he's not scoring, that might be a problem for them. I mean, I've watched him a fair bit this season. I think he was nullified fairly well in this match, actually.

5:47I know he had the penalty and he did score as well. But I think of the matches when I've seen him this season, he's been phenomenal. He's been a beast that's been unstoppable. But in this match, the supply to him was somewhat restricted. I thought he was managed okay, but as in that's not the thing to take from this match. The thing to take from this match is the immensity of Man City's performance and the way that they played in the first half was brilliant and so fun and exciting to watch. they flooded the midfield and they always had an additional man in there so it was almost Kloppian in the way that Pep did it because he just said okay fullbacks you go high and wide you just keep the width and everyone else on the inside we're all super narrow we're going to try and break to the middle that's really interesting that idea that it's fun because I think there's the slightly lazy perception that actually if they were going to change style and just give it to Erling Haaland I jokingly refer to them as Erling Haaland FC which is not I don't think unreasonable after this season but perhaps the perception then is that oh if you're just giving the ball to Erling Haaland you're not going to be as fun as previous iterations, the team that won the title without a striker so you think that this style with pace I mean it's still breathtaking at times isn't it?

6:57It always depends on the team that you're playing I was just going to say that we always find ourselves saying these elite teams are better off facing other elite teams because they will try and play against you and there will be more space opened up, although he was saying in this interesting quotes afterwards about everyone's talking about winning the duels he's like what about when you've got the ball and not allowing the jewels playing that extra pass so like he's able to double down doing that against Liverpool perhaps but if you come up against Brentford or whoever he's going to have to play a different way and I think we've seen that he's acknowledged that this season and he saw the way Haaland spoke about that game afterwards and how much he loved like he relished the battle and acknowledged it was like playing Stoke in 2010 or whatever that's the way the Premier League is this year you've got to you've got to have a different face for different positions.

7:45But I mean, let's be honest, if Jeremy Doku plays like that in every single game for the rest of his career, it doesn't matter who they're playing against, just give the ball to Doku. It was an amazing performance, wasn't it? This felt like a moment of a player going, oh, I've arrived now. I'm not just this guy who's quick with ability. I'm actually a really, really top level winger. Would you agree? Yeah, I mean, he's largely been a guy that plays in flashes, a brilliant dribbler. And then the end product, once he's beaten one or two players, is just not quite there. and it's weird because he gets into the box so much, you think just by sheer proximity of being in the box, you just get loads of assists, right?

8:18If you're playing with Haaland and you're running into the box loads, surely you'd have like 15 assists and it's never quite come together. I mean, he scored the amazing goal from outside the box and again, that's not really, if you imagine a Jeremy Doku finish, you're probably thinking of him jinking inside and then maybe skimming one in their post, something like that. Not the cleanest finish, but as in effective. This was a fantastic performance, But like Gregor said, I don't imagine many teams are going to look at City and go, OK, we'll play with a high line or we'll press you super high, which leaves space for Doku to run inside and through.

8:53So the challenge is for how does City encourage teams to play like Liverpool did against them? Maybe you can draw them onto you and play deep at the back and try and encourage them to press and then play through them. Maybe you could convince them that you've got defensive vulnerabilities so that they attack them and then expose them. or what's more likely is most teams are going to play 5-4-1 against them and it will be quite turgid watches most of the time. What you do is you have a blooming anniversary or party every week, don't you? Get Joan involved. But seriously, in the build-up you had Arnie Slott saying, oh, you know, this is going to be a proper football match.

9:31None of this time-wasting, none of these long throws, none of this boring stuff. and it's almost like he felt he had to turn up to the party with a bottle of champagne and not Prosecco, wasn't it? And so he gave City the game they wanted. Yeah, definitely. That's the key, isn't it? And because City are in a better place than Liverpool and we're at home, they exploited the fact it was nice football. But all this does is show every other manager in the division, unless we're invited to the party we're not going to do that Maybe Pep should turn it into a party then announce he's going to leave and then every game is the last party that would be the way to get it It's a funny situation that leagues in when we're almost criticising the team for daring to play against the others I'm not I hate the set pieces Paul Joyce has written in his report today Paul also wrote a piece before this run of games that Liverpool have had Aston Villa, Real Madrid and Manchester City and said this is actually what Arnie Slott wants he wants to play against good teams to try and get him back on track.

10:36And it worked for two games. We were praising them on Thursday's show. We were criticising Villa a little bit too, sort of suddenly veiled. Yeah. Oh, you played into their hands, lads. What are you doing? But it's such a shift. Like, what, 18 months ago, it was like teams were like, no, you've got your identity, you stick to it. And that's the only way to make sure that your players are really bought into the vision and everything. Now it's like, no, you've got to know who you're playing against and flip it up. I just think the Premier League is in a pretty fascinating state at the moment in terms of the spectrum of different approaches.

11:06Yeah, definitely. There's loads of fascinating strands that I want to pick up, as you say. Just very quickly on Nico O 'Reilly. Picked for England for the first time. Another good performance from him. Is he another... Second time, no? Is it the first time? Second time. Oh, right. Oh, the second time. He didn't get a cap, I don't think, did he? But is he a Miles Lewis Skelly midfielder masquerading as a left-back earlier stages of his career or could he actually be a left-back? Well, he is technically, but he looks a bit more like a left-back than O 'Reilly because he's got sorry then Lewis Gale because he's got a bit more of that galloping sort of forward staying wide as well ability he's got that chance at the end he's big he's massive that's why Rico Lewis isn't in the group for example as good technically perhaps even better technically but as in Nico O 'Reilly is taller and stronger in the Premier League they've captured a lot really interesting let's talk about Liverpool then this was the end of a four game winless run for City in matches against Liverpool that was going back to April 2023.

12:03So, I mean, it's a sign that Liverpool have been excellent in these matches, as I say. But that first half was fairly disastrous, wasn't it? I mean, I've not seen a side that disjointed and chaotic. We talk about playing into Manchester City's hands. The idea that that followed Real Madrid is perhaps maybe the most alarming thing for Liverpool and Arnie Slott. A brilliant performance against a great side at home with a clean sheet to then follow it with that, it does strike you. But there is a trend developing now, isn't there? Liverpool at home still look good. Liverpool away look lost. That's something that needs a resting.

12:48Also, I was great, though the win was in the Champions League. I thought Real Madrid were disappointing. I don't know if it was a fantastic atmosphere. I don't know if that got to them, but you kind of think, well, OK, Conor Bradley's having a great game against Vinicius Junior. Is that it? Is that what's going to mean that you don't have a cohesive performance? And they lack the authority I thought they would bring to the fixture, especially they've been on a fantastic run of wins. So you can't say, oh, Liverpool were on this amazing run because the wins came against at home and against teams that I think were underperforming.

13:27Villa were also underperforming. A bit in the context of Liverpool's run, though. To get two wins against Villa and Real Madrid and keep clean sheets. Yeah, who didn't play that well. Didn't play that well. And they were at Anfield. And that gives them... Anfield does give a team that are struggling with various issues, including grief, but they look tired against City-Liverpool. You can get over finding it a difficult season, physically and emotionally, when you're at Anfield and the crowd carry you through and have an effect on the opposition. And you can be braver, I think, as well at home and have more belief in what you're trying to do.

14:07But suddenly, away from that buoyancy of the support you get, overall Liverpool looked tired. And at this stage in the season, I don't think, obviously, the big teams are all playing midweek as well. At this stage in the season, for Liverpool to look so exhausted is worrying. And I do feel that Slott is struggling to work it out. I really do. He's got to be thinking about how to integrate new players. And the best way of integrating them so far seems to be to not integrate them at all. And that's going to be a worry from the boardroom level. Well, what, you know, we spent over 400 million quid, what are you doing?

14:54and so he's reverting to what he had last season to try and see them through whilst under the pressure to keep trying to sort of thread through the new faces that just aren't working and the Premier League is, as Gregor has said it's gone really strange and varied and demanding and unpredictable this season and it's just not suiting someone like Florian Wiertz it's not suiting him And we saw that he was much more comfortable playing against a continental team than he has been against Premier League. But he's getting the minutes. He's getting the minutes and it's not working. And we're looking, Liverpool are looking light in midfield.

15:35And you look at the bench and you think, wow, why? With hindsight, why did you buy Isaac when all that money could have been spent on bolstering defence and midfield? It feels like the pieces are not there. and slot who, let's face it, he's not had a crisis in the Premier League before. He's never had to deal with expensive players before. These are new things for him. The Premier League is still new for him. He inherited a wonderful squad, obviously has great management skills and was able to get the players on side. I think that's the best thing he did was he got the players on his side and they played for him.

16:11But now he's got questions to answer. He's struggling to find the answers because he's got no experience of them. Yeah, Hamza, Alisson's may raise a lot of issues there. And as I joked at the start of the show, you've not had your say recently on the podcast on what this big, big problem for Liverpool is. What do you think are some of the points Alisson made or some of the thoughts you've got yourself? I have a sort of like a conflicted and contradictory picture when it comes to Liverpool. I think in this match, they weren't that bad. I thought Man City were much better in the first half and established tactical dominance, like I said, through controlling the middle of the pitch.

16:44And Liverpool struggled to respond to that. but in terms of the quality of chances that they faced City weren't able to actually show and I mentioned that with Haaland right usually if City exert that control in midfield you get Haaland having two, three shots in the middle of the box and it didn't quite happen I mean the goal that he scored I think it was quite badly defended by Canate I think it was really nice in the way that City worked it from their own corner to the opposite side and you had that quirk of Van Dijk and Robertson deciding when to swap and that meant that Robertson was a bit slow to move out.

17:18It's a jammy header though. Yeah. A very lucky header, yeah. And then I guess the second goal is a deflection from outside the box and the third goal is also from outside the box. So as in, when you imagine City's domination, usually they create loads of chances. So it's not like clear-cut chances in the box, like high XG, etc. And that was the problem with Liverpool earlier this season. That was definitely the problem with them earlier this season. They were just giving up loads of good quality chances. If you look at the past three matches, I think they've largely improved in that respect so I think the quality of chances that they're facing has decreased the quality of ones that they're creating is largely the same I think they probably could have scored here but their best chance came when it was 3-0 so you don't really want to count that too much because City had relaxed and they had the goal disallowed as well which I think, do we all agree, is slightly harsh I mean, it's going in, isn't it?

18:07It's going in, Donnarumma would make that dive exactly the same whether Robertson's crouched there or not Alison, I mean... Well, you could accuse me of bias, but I have no idea why it was disturbed. No, I don't think there's any bias involved here. I think, Gregor, fairly harsh. I'll come back to you in a sec, Hamza. Sorry, I just realised a lot of people will be going, that goal was ridiculous. It should have stood. Yeah, I don't feel that strongly about it. I do think it should have stood, but everything slowed down, and there was one analysis where you're looking at Armandashvili's sort of balance of his leg moving on to his right foot.

18:44Donnarumma, you mean. Sorry, Donnarumma moving on to his right foot. And then, so that actually when the ball was already over Robertson's head by the time he started to push off to make the save. I mean, are we really going to bore down into that level of detail in VAR? Like, we'll be there all day. So, but all at the same time, when you look through the rules, the rule itself, it doesn't really, it doesn't really kind of strike any of the bullet points. making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball like he's not making an action but you could argue in that moment he's in a position that's stopping him to make the action it's messy it's one of those rules, having done that referee score, it's one of those ones you watch and you go like, certainly in real time a referee could be forgiven either, when they have the opportunity, VAR has the opportunity to make a clearer decision I think it should have been ruled out but it probably would have taken a long long time that's a long answer for saying not a lot tantalisingly close to her both things could be true there ladies and gentlemen tantalisingly close how come the Liverpool backroom staff immediately gives slot access to the similar goal that City scored against Wolves yes I did think that was slightly in the vein of we're backs to the wall we're having a moan here but I agree but the point and that wasn't the reason Liverpool lost that but as a manager you can see why you might bring it up that a perfectly good goal is disallowed but why don't the VAR officials have access to these things so they can make a I still think having seen that there is a slight difference in the spaces of where they were I agree listen I'm the one who started this why should they look at a different decision yeah I don't think they should be looking at different decisions because that this is precedent we're talking about it was so similar it was so similar we'll be pausing the game and everyone come off the right Yeah, it's not law.

20:36You're not looking at previous cases. Mr. Slott, please present your case for why this... Well, here we are. There's a Wolves goal, and this would actually definitely be erased. No, but you learn and evolve. That's what's supposed to happen in the life, isn't it? And the VAR is still... I mean, come on, Al. I knew I shouldn't have brought that up. But Hamza was in the middle of an excellent bit of analysis. What has gone before? Hamza was in the middle of an excellent bit of analysis. I shouldn't have brought up VAR. It's a massive error of mine. Listeners, I apologise. Hamza, you were about to talk about Liverpool's attack having talked about what you think is a slight improvement in their defence.

21:07Carry on. Yeah, so I was actually just having this discussion with Danny Fink just on the lift on the way up. He's on the Chelsea board and he was on about the Wolves match and he said you could see in the first half Chelsea were just trying to unpick them and as soon as they got that first goal then the floodgates opened. And this is something we've discussed before. This is game state, right? If you're leading or drawing or losing that makes an enormous difference to how you play the game. And Liverpool's issue was they were conceding loads of big quality chances. They'd go behind and then they'd have to attack.

21:37And then they'd throw things forward and try and really, really push. And that meant they were unstable because they were taking lots of risks. And then they'd conceded more chances. So I think one of the things that they fixed in the previous two matches was they just didn't concede early. And that makes a big impact in how you play. And, of course, that also relates to style as well. So as in when Slott talks about long balls, I think the really interesting thing is that David Moyes was the person that alighted on the formula, the blueprint to beat Liverpool. And this was in the Masi side derby last year, the last one at Goodison.

22:09He turned it into a dual match. The first time that we saw Slott get upset as well. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And loads of direct long balls. And since that match, the Premier League is a match full of video analysts. All the clubs have them. So once the video footage is out there, everyone can see what you should be doing. And loads looked at this match and went, oh, my God, this is the formula to really disrupt Liverpool. If you play a long ball, then that means they have to defend it. If you can win the second ball, you can disrupt them. You can stop them building into the final third and then developing a sort of possession structure and unpicking you and giving Salah and Vert and all these guys' chances to score by keeping it sort of end-to-end and breaking it down, slowing it down with the set pieces, all that sort of stuff.

22:49So David Moyes set the blueprint. Newcastle used it in the League Cup final really good defence Newcastle used it this season as well in the 3-2 defeat loads of teams have used it since so I think so last time I checked so these stats are around three weeks out of date but as in I mean it's still true Liverpool are facing 19 % fewer open play passes this season that's because when a team kicks off from the goalkeeper they just go long so there's no opportunity to press right so instead of building up they just go long and if you can't press that means it's very difficult for you to win the ball and score from pressing opportunities they take away this attacking asset Liverpool by just going long and then they like Manchester United really well they position players this is another interesting thing so the volume of aerial duel wins has increased for Liverpool facing more aerial duels Van Zayk and Canate win a lot of them in fact they're winning loads but the issue is who wins the second ball and teams are really smart in positioning players between the lines Manchester United a great example of this almost like they're happy for Liverpool to win the first header which is why Van Dijk and Canate are winning a lot that's fine you can have that one it's the next one we're going to win yeah and so if you look at like I've got a few graphics that I can put out but if you look at you can make a control level and see what the average long rate ball is in the league versus Liverpool and if you have a scatter plot you've got like all the teams are in a sort of normal sort of range between sort of upper quartile 75th percentile 25th percentile low quartile and then Liverpool are just way up.

24:21Everyone's realised that's what you do against them. This wasn't the case in this match, obviously. City are good enough to not do that. The other team is Bournemouth. Yeah. The two teams who were the best, who created the most shots and goals from high turnovers last season were Bournemouth and Liverpool. And this season, they're facing more long balls than any other team. So I'm just absolutely right. It's like, they've looked at... There's also a bit of tallies with the sort of pragmatic era we're in now, if you want to call it that. It's like, why are we giving them an opportunity? why are we basically playing into their hands is it ending up being more about counter punch tactics this season so it's all about what are we doing to nullify and therefore rather than we're going to play our own game it's like you're not allowing them a chance to press which is one of their biggest strengths and possibly create good chances in the score you can only do that as well the question is why didn't Villa go long against Liverpool Villa don't have a big target man to play into or they're not a super counter-pressing team, right?

25:19So if you go long into Ollie Watkins, for example, against Van Dijk, you're going to lose that initial ball and then you've got, okay, McGinn's quite good at recovering the second balls, Rodgers is as well, but if you've got Buendia and then you've probably got Kamara playing deep, you're probably not in the right position to counter-press, so you go, all right, that's not going to be our tactic for this match. So if you've got a big centre-forward that can contest that initial duel and then loads of guys that are really good at contesting the second ball, then you're a team that can play that.

25:46But as in, it really does depend on the ability of your players to play that style as well. So it's not as simple as just switching it on because not everyone can do that. No, really interesting. I mean, just a final point on Liverpool and thinking about their attack. Obviously, Alexander Izak not fully fit, sat in on the bench for this game. Talking about mad seasons, we could be talking in a couple of weeks about Liverpool being top of the table. Their matches after the international break are Nottingham Forest, PSV, Eindhoven, West Ham, Sunderland and Leeds. Five straight wins, Alison. Panic over.

26:14Party's back on. Well, they'll win the games at home and they won't win the games away. But in terms of the forward line, just very quickly, do we see potentially Slott in with those games in mind reverting to what he knows, as you've hinted at and we've all discussed on this podcast, that the new signings haven't quite yet gelled? Obviously, Eketike, I think, has been excellent in flashes, but maybe we'll see Salah, Gakpo, Eketike and maybe Virts and Isaac will have to... This is the biggest thing I think now is the problem, the issue with Mo Salah has always been you can absorb his lack of defensive responsibility because he terrorises opposition players and you know he'll come up with a goal and often at a crucial moment or juncture.

27:00and he's not doing that now. So now suddenly teams are targeting Liverpool's right side because they see that it's exposing Connor Bradley in this case, but it's exposing their right side. And, you know, only towards the end of last season, Arna Slott was joking about Mo Salah not being the kind of guy who tracks back, but that's OK because he's Mo Salah. I've heard this a lot, but I don't think it's true. He doesn't track back. He does, and I don't have the stats from right now, now. Might not work on a podcast. I can publish them and I've got the stats bomb pressures, Huddle stats bomb pressures and he's up there.

27:37He has some of the most in the team. He's a really intense presser of the ball. He does it a lot. He works but he doesn't do the defensive job. But he gets the tackles, he gets the pressures, he gets the counter pressures, he gets the shots from counter pressures. He does everything that you need him to do. It's just in an end-to-end game it's very hard to settle and then get the chances that you... One thing about Salah though in relation to Alison's point about him then not producing the other end this match was the first time since July 2020 that Salah had started a Premier League match against City and failed to either score or assist so ending nine straight league games against City He did assist it was disallowed That's so lucky on him though Yeah exactly but anyway we'll leave it there because I feel like probably Gregor we might talk about Liverpool again this season maybe just maybe After those five matches we'll leave them for a bit Shall we leave it Five whole matches and come back and see where they're at.

28:30Liverpool fans do get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. I know a lot of you have been in touch recently, making lots of excellent points and interesting analysis about their season. As I said, Manchester City back firmly in the title race after Sunderland. They did it again. Gregor, I was following this game. I'd watched most of it. I'd left to go somewhere else and it was 2-1 and I was genuinely refreshing my phone thinking Sunderland are going to equalise. We're in the stage of like, will they score? They always score with Sunderland at home this season. It's absolutely remarkable.

28:58And a brilliantly, slightly bonkers finish from Brian Bubby to get the ball past the keeper as he's diving out. What would you call that? There's like a half overhead kick. Half scorpion backward kick sort of type thing. But fantastic from Sunderland, isn't it? They're keeping this run going. They're fourth into the November international break. Whatever we say about this season, that is a fantastic thing. Is it true that they moved the advertising hoardings in a bit to nullify the long throw. In which case, talk about people taking note. They must all be thinking, let's move those hoardings now.

29:34Did you see the Lombrius interview afterwards? It was fantastic. He was asked about it in the press conference. He was like, no, I don't know what you mean. Maybe. I think he said maybe it was the wind. I think he admitted on TV, though, basically all, but he's like, yeah, we look for these details. Yeah, why not? Why wouldn't you? The weird thing is, Sunderland used the long throw better than Arsenal do. Yeah, but if they know it's coming, Hamza they can practice with a shorter run up can't they I thought this was an advertisement for terrible football though the game 2-2 Hamza no no no Sunderland are fourth I said this about don't be harsh in my vibe now man as in the goals and late goals convince you that you watched a good match but as in I was watching a terrible match and I said this about the Liverpool Newcastle match that was one of the worst matches I've ever watched oh that was in early in the season come on the ball just wasn't in play at all but it was so not in play it was funny it was ridiculous so like I think a third of the way through the match the ball was in play for 13 so it was around 33 minutes in so I know at this point there was some mitigation because of a head injury the linesman's flag wasn't working and the ball went out a bit right but the ball's in play he's back he's back everyone for 13 minutes extrapolate that for a full match right what do you get you don't even get half a football it was the issue was both teams were at it both of them initially they didn't mind either team didn't mind having a very slow game because they enjoy that.

30:57They don't mind breaking it down, having the set pieces. Sunderland go ahead and suddenly Arsenal, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we can't abide with this time-wasting. And you see every set piece. They are bang, bang, bang, bang. They're so quick. They're moving the ball. We want the ball in play. 2-1. What happens then? 5-4-1. If the ball goes out, whoa, man, we kill the game. David Ryer saves the ball. What do you want from them? Picks it up. What do you want from them? They're playing Arsenal. Everyone's talking about this, like, really sniffily about... Hang on, hang on. Everyone's really sniffy About this This whole argument About like The game's not as entertaining It's damaging The Premier League It's regressed From that peak Of like You know Five years ago Whenever when Klopp and Guardiola Were going at it Everyone was trying to emulate that But how close was anyone To those two teams?

31:41Like this is different The league is concertina I said this a few weeks ago I hoped this would happen It might not last the whole season But it's exciting Giving teams like Seeing teams Trying to find ways of getting closer to the best teams in the country is surely a good thing. There are also different forms of entertainment. There's drama. I've written about set pieces and stuff for a long time. I believe they're quite useful, especially in equalising matches between a team that has a talent advantage and one that isn't so good. The beautiful thing about football is largely that the impetus to try and win is almost always aligned with attacking football.

32:19So usually a winning team plays attacking football. And that's great for the spectator. That's great for the neutral. You get to see a good match because teams are trying to win. And that means attacking football. But when you have easy goals from set pieces, and when you have this, and I don't mind teams such as Sunderland, which are the less favoured side in this matchup, sort of pushing the envelope a bit. A little bit of dark arts. Big of you, big of you, handsome. That's okay. But there's a point where you go, that's a bit too far. So you don't mind a little bit of shirts tugging in the box because that's normal.

32:52Defenders need to do that. Goals need to be hard to come by. But this is ridiculous. Which part of it is ridiculous? The ball not being in play. Oh, just the ball not in play. We're just not watching football and there's too much of an emphasis on the set pieces. We should also say that this is not just Sunderland. No, this is a league-wide thing. And as you say, Arsenal, top of the table, are... They spend 40 seconds on a throw-in on average. What the hell? That's ridiculous. And they've got good players. They can actually play football. They don't. They do. No, they don't. They might on a long throw-in, but on an average length of a throw-in.

33:27They do. Opta did it. And this was three weeks ago when I was last working. Hamza, you're really going to have to bring in a new point of this podcast where you have like a sheet of statistics that you like hold up in front of the camera for you to be like, I'm going to show you, look. I'm going to show you. So Greg, he's going, oh, shit, he's got a point. 40 seconds is bonkers. Greg is now googly. No, I don't think it's true because I did that piece about the style changes last year and it's not that long. It's that long for a corner, but it's not that long for a throw in anyway we're getting semantics he has a point the game we talked about Liverpool-Newcastle the ball was in play for 40 % of the game that's ridiculous and the rest of the time it's in the air but putting style aside I disagree with you on that and you should come and watch some football lower down the pyramid if you want to see about it I have to watch Warsaw a lot and we play more football than these guys you don't we don't we hate possession we let other people have the ball you hate possession the ball's still in play absolutely hate possession and you're top of the league but regardless Alison, you're a woman who likes a narrative, aren't you?

34:24Forget the stats for a minute. Sunderland in 4th in November is fantastic. Of course it's fantastic. But what they've done is they've tapped into... The game, I disagree with Hamza, even though I could see the ball was not in play and I thought it was quite funny. It was what you had. It looked like an early round of an FA Cup tie. There was one team that was so obviously superior physically technically emotionally superior and that was Arsenal and you had Sunderland with players who just don't look like they're familiar with the Premier League look like they fit into the championship again it looked like a cup tie with the underdogs playing a team that was supposed to win and doing and yet relying on that team spirit, energy just cohesion, good management, self-belief.

35:23So technically, apart from the finishing, which was good, but technically overall Sunderland looked at a lower level. The sort of team that come up and think they'll automatically go down. But this is the beautiful thing about them. It comes back to what you said at the very beginning, Tom, but you expected them to be able to remain unbeaten at Stadium of Light. It's Sunderland. Can they score? They always score. They've got something going and it just goes to show you can have the most experienced manager. You can have that momentum of feeling like it's going to be your season and you go to a newly promoted team that refuse to accept their status in the contest and do what it takes to win.

36:08And that in itself, I feel, is entertaining. and you don't need to have the ball in play a lot. There are different forms of entertainment. You lot watch Red Zone then. You guys watch set pieces, watch the ball in play when it's in. It's carried away with us. It's not like, look, it's a 2 % drop on last season. And it dropped a 20 % on the season before. It's a 2 % drop. So yeah, it's a change. That's quite a big shift statistically, but it's 2%. I think people are getting carried away with us. LeBris is great. these guys love him watch him now and I think I've said this before but there is not an interview he gives where he doesn't say the word connection about it's one of the biggest qualities he thinks about between his team and you think to yourself how have they signed 16 players and managed to gel and do this it's because he puts a great emphasis on like that kind of unity as a team and like you see it in the team I'm big Dan Ballard I know you want to say it big Dan Ballard Mean character energy from him is just magnificent.

37:11Such a fantastic goal as well. Does anyone think there's a moral? I mean, I don't want to rain on Sunderland's parade. But I'm just interested. Does anyone think it's slightly immoral to win promotion, but then change your team? And not reward the team that got you promotion? He didn't change the team. A lot of the players are still there in the squad. He's just added to it. And they're still playing a part. But it's also risk. Ballard for example is a great example he literally dragged them there but is that enough is that enough to have one great example that's an interesting question because it's a big risk because the counter to that would be that you Alison Rudd senior sports writer for the Times would be sat here going oh it's so naive they thought they could come up with the same team and not change it this is the Premier League you've got to do the business you've got to show some ambition everything like that absolutely not never disagreed anymore but if that's a trend that continues what's the motivation for the team to get you up lots of money loads of money anyway Sunderland we love you we love Reggie Lebris we love Dan Ballard if you are a Time subscriber by the way and you get our excellent weekly football newsletter make sure you check out for that coming in your inbox at 5pm today Martin Hardy writing about Big Dan Ballard with a fantastic story about how he turned into Alan Partridge once when he saw Dan Ballard and screamed at him shouting down the street Dan!

38:28Dan! Dan! to try and get him to talk to him anyway you can read more about that later on it's time to take a break We've got loads more still to discuss. I don't know how we're going to fit it all in. You might have heard the various noises. Gregor, we're still in this weird studio because we've given up our studio space for The Rock, our rugby sister podcast, talking about the Alton Internationals. Make sure you go and check them out and you can hear all the bangs and crashes on this show every Monday. Time for a little break. Got you a little quiz question from Bill Edgar's column. Who scored the first Premier League goal this season, not scored by a head or a foot, scoring with his chest on Saturday?

39:00Find out after the break.

39:21Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Hamza Kalik Luna, Alison Rudd and Gregor Robeson with me. Guys, we're really struggling on the quizzes lately, aren't we? We've not had a correct answer for ages. the answer was of course West Ham's Thomas Suchek scoring with his chest on Saturday Bill Edgar writing that then seven minutes later Everton's Michael Keane then scored with his shoulder there you go all the body parts involved I now cross over to our tactical analyst Hamza Khalid Luna who has an apology to make quick correction the average delay time before throwing for Arsenal until a few weeks ago was 20.3 seconds what I confused that with was the average time delay before corners were there 45.4 seconds very big of you Hamza Kaleek-Lunat the first and only journalist in the last decade to ever admit he was wrong and say it publicly on a football podcast well done Hamza it's a delight to have you back excellent your colleagues could learn from it anyway let's move on we're talking about Thomas Suchek and that goal for West Ham Gregor we're talking about Sunderland at the top in the first half of the show isn't it brilliant it felt like this weekend was perhaps a sign that Burnley and Leeds won't quite be up there with them shocking us.

40:31Both of them ahead in their games against West Ham and Forest, both eventually losing. Is this Forest and West Ham? Is this new manager bounce finally clicking? Is it quality and experience showing through? Is it both things can be true? Crikey, that's a question. Look, I think a big part of it is sort of established teams like West Ham and Forest. You could throw them into that now. sort of changing manager and I've been seeing a massive uptick in sort of in performances I mean not massive but an uptick definitely and you know you kind of you find yourself getting sucked into the recency bias of things don't you a little bit but look I think Leeds and Burnley will be competitive very competitive and I think we'll have a relegation fight this year but it's not going to be easy for them Forest I think will pull away and then the thing that we have said like throughout the season you can't really you're struggling to see who's going to drop in yeah well apart from potentially Wolves who still bottom after that defeat against Chelsea Chelsea by the way we'll just briefly come back Chelsea a third six points off the top Chelsea apparently according to all of us on this podcast have been crap all season honestly I was editing yesterday and going through the table I was like Chelsea a third what on earth is going on anyway back to the bottom Wolves still down there awaiting the appointment we think of Rob Edwards as we're recording this on Monday morning with just two points then Forrest with nine points in 19th place then West Ham and Burnley both with 10 points then Leeds with 11 then Fulham Alisson losing again now they're back in it last week we said they'd won against Wolves it's alright panic over now they need they need another home game to easily win to then get back out of it otherwise they're going to keep yo-yoing I still have faith they do have problems I mean they're the oldest team in the often are the oldest team in the Premier League and they just need a bit of refreshing and a bit of option from the bench.

42:28But Marco Silva's an excellent coach. Yeah, good win for Everton. But you look at them, they're 15th. The only team above them you think there's any possibility of falling is Brentford in 12th. And you don't really feel that way about them, do you? But it's possible. It's not going to be Newcastle. It's not going to be Everton. So, you know what I mean? It's really hard to pick this year which team is going to fall. Well, you mentioned two teams there, Gregor. let's talk about them now because Brentford another brilliant win and as I was going to say just ahead of Fulham is Newcastle with just 12 points from 11 games in 14th brilliant in Europe at home against James' Park terrible away or are they just terrible when they play in front of Alison Rowe that is the question another game in the capital another game with our senior sports writer there to see it and they bottled it again yeah yeah I did put it to Eddie Hart it was a self-fulfilling prophecy he did look at me like I didn't know what that meant actually oh I thought you went I thought you actually literally asked Eddie Howe, Eddie, is it my fault?

43:27I wouldn't have put that past you, actually. Eddie, hi, me again. Not very good when I'm here, are you, Eddie? Is it my fault? Would you like me to not come? You can email Tom.Clark at the Times if you'd like me to go to Chelsea or Tottenham instead. But this was a bad performance in a fun game. In a fun game. A hugely enjoyable match. But there are big problems for Eddie Howe to solve because I was, as you've intimated, I've watched them do this already and I was at the West Ham game. And Eddie Howe's response to the defeat then, having taken the lead, was to really slaughter the team. He'd call them unrecognisable, could have subbed anybody, not what he wanted to see.

44:08And normally he's a bit more avuncular than that. But that didn't work. So they looked like they were carrying the weight of lack of self-belief around quite heavily. so he said afterwards well it's my job to support the players through this difficult time and it's a collective thing it's no one person's individual responsibility it's my responsibility so he's u-turned on taking an approach to try and get them improved it it's it's a bit similar to to Liverpool that St James's Park gives them gives them an energy and edge that they just just lack away from home and I think it's really peculiar that a team can take the lead away from home and then be unable to fashion a way to either cling on to that lead or build on it they just it's almost like taking the lead meant nothing at all to them it was really strange and of course against that you've got Brentford who do have masses of confidence and self-belief and did not allow going behind to affect them at all other than to play better and apply more energy at home you've seen them now beat liverpool at home in very convincing fashion and now beat newcastle they weren't they weren't as physical and they didn't need to be maybe but they weren't as physical or as pacey in this game they were they were calm and authoritative and won won lots of first balls and second balls and mixed it up as well i mean they before kickoff Newcastle were practising an aerial bombardment, they felt that would be the key and yes, another coyote long throw was successful but Brentford, they did it under Frank and they're doing it again under Keith Andrews they're mixing it up I think that must be quite hard to, you know, it's quite easy to go into a match thinking, right, we know what we're going to expect boys, it's going to be lots of long balls, lots of set pieces throw-ins are going to be awkward let's just make sure because they're quite a big team Newcastle make sure we deal with those and they did actually defend quite well for much of the game but it's not like that with Brentford they play nice intelligent football as well and Newcastle completely floored by it I think it's funny how he often says now when he's asked what's the issue between them and me he's like we're a new team we've got a different dynamic we've got a new team we're not new we've got a new striker yeah that's it so is he still laying at the door of that we think he's made a But he's had a great start, yeah.

46:39Well, that's the perception anyway. Yeah, I mean, everyone else is very familiar. Well, like the odd centre-half, I wouldn't say that makes you that much of a different team. So maybe he's suggesting like Isak gave them something that was a bit more like of an outball, I think. Fear factor as well, potentially, when he was in form. Yeah, Voltemade doesn't run the channels. They've missed the full-backs as well, though. Tino and Lewis Hall. Yeah, that's true. I think that's made quite a difference, the dynamic. I think the Walter Marder point is interesting as well because he's not a centre footer, as Tony said before.

47:12He's like a... Number 10. He's a number 10, even though he looks like a big guy. Yeah, he looks like a big guy up front. But as in, he's just not that. So being asked to do some of that, as in being number nine, is quite difficult for a guy that hasn't demonstrated that ability because that's not really what he does. So I think that there is some... And they're dealing with three games a week again. Yeah. and dealing well in Europe since I know we talked about it on Thursday's show didn't we Gregor about where they've maybe gone front foot to try and win as many home games as they can in the Champions League before their run gets a little bit more difficult I should just say as well as praising Hamza for being a journalist who acknowledged a mistake and I did enjoy Dan Burns sending off in the modern football of haranguing and everything he knew he'd made a foul he stood politely, waited just away from the referee and then got the second yellow card and went Yep, fine.

48:02No problem. See you later. So it's to be really admired in modern football, isn't it? Like no faffing around, no arguing, no get away from the referee. Just like, yep, that's all right. That's definitely me. That's two yellows. See you later. Off we go. Igor Thiago, by the way, eight goals in the Premier League this season. Second most of any player behind Erling Haaland. Looks a good striker for modern football. Oh, he's fantastic. He's got everything you want from your centre forward. He links up play well. He can run with the ball. He wins the ball. He can finish. His finish for his second goal was so relaxed.

48:36I mean, the ball didn't come to him as he was expecting. It was a clearance that landed at his feet, sort of, but that might mess with your head. I wasn't expecting it. It was as though he knew three weeks ago that was what was going to happen. It was fantastic. Absolutely. He's got a lovely smile as well, I always think, when he celebrates. Lovely set tee. Brentford in 12th, just above them. There's Palace and Brighton who played out a nil-nil draw. And then Bournemouth. Greg, you've mentioned them already. A second defeat on the spin. 4-0 at Aston Villa. Again, further proof that this season, maybe we haven't got a clue what's really going on because at the start of the season, Villa were crap and couldn't score.

49:09And now they're right up there scoring goals for fun. Another goal for Emi Buendia. And just looking like they're creating chances at Will, Gregor, for this game. I mean, which way do we take this? That Villa were always a good side and it's finally clicked for them after a difficult start. I think that's four wins out of five. Or that Bournemouth, two wins on the spin. It's maybe that we got a bit carried away with their start. or, I'm trying to get him to say it, I'm trying to get him to say it. Yeah, probably both things can be different. What if it's none of them? Nothing's true. Nothing's true, football's crap.

49:45I've watched Villa a fair bit this season, I think, similar to the City match, where you can see a team that's on top, but not necessarily making the quality of chances that you'd expect from that. So, Villa's goals, set piece, shot from outside the box. this wasn't Villa when you compare Villa at their best when you've seen them last season when you've actually seen them put in a performance that's worthy of a 4-0 this game actually doesn't represent that I mean also we should say Emi Martinez excellent penalty save with the game at 2-0 the classic cliche it could have been very different if that goes in etc etc I thought Bournemouth were a bit unlucky here and the rubber the green went Villa's way in a way that it just didn't early in the season so they've deserved some luck and this time it's just coming in a flood in this match so yeah I think But we think Bournemouth will we're talking about you know this idea that Sunderland are booking the trend but can they keep it going you think Bournemouth are still showing all the qualities they were at the start of the season they're just not quite getting the results and that they will still be in that competition for those extra European places They're still a very good team but like Gregor mentioned earlier it's the opportunities to do what they're very good at that has now been limited by opponents so if you can't if you're Bournemouth and your whole game is about playing direct and pressing and you can't press anymore because teams aren't allowing you that opportunity, then when you have the ball, you've got to play a different way.

51:06And without the ball, you have to completely play a different way. So now teams are treating them like a favoured side and saying, OK, you've got the ball, let's see what you can do. Can you break us down? And for Bournemouth, who traditionally haven't played that way, that's a challenge, and I think they're actually rising to that challenge. The results just haven't shown it. But the real difficulty is how do they press when they can't press? so there's still stuff that's up in the air but it's really important to remember a team or a player or a manager can do loads of really good things but there is another team always and they inform how the game plays out an enormous amount and more so than we like to attribute when we think about matches Norman's commitment to pressing is such that Antonio Araiola instructs his players to shoot on sight because if it goes wide they get an opportunity to press from the goal kick if you know that there's a no-lose situation for him.

52:00Not many managers say that. This is an era where you don't shoot from outside the box. There's a low goal-scoring probability. He thinks if they get a goal kick, because a lot of teams still try and put balls from the back, it's an opportunity to press. A big challenge for Andoni Eriola going forward. Just one final 2-2 teams that perhaps sum up the kind of slight befuddlement I'm finding at this season. Tottenham against Manchester United 2-2. Hamza, I'd agree with you on your assertion about poor games and exciting finishes. I think this game definitely qualified for that with some late goals.

52:29But I just wanted to ask the question, Tottenham in fifth, Manchester United in seventh. Who do you think will finish higher in the league? Because I'm starting to think Manchester United are going to finish higher than Tottenham. Am I crazy? No, you're not crazy. It's possible, isn't it? But I think if players that are injured come back for Spurs and they stick with Thomas Frank, I think they have the overall package to finish above Man United. Even with the Europe thing, because that's the other thing I'm thinking with United, is you are starting to see, in fairness to Ruben Amarim, we said it a lot last season, time with his players, and he said it himself in recent press conferences.

53:07Hamza, what do you think about the idea that United could finish ahead of Tottenham? Yeah, I think that's fair. You're saying the system wasn't the problem? Because I heard every pun on every broadcaster, oh the system's a problem he's back with a bank United only play with two in midfield and then now it's oh you don't play with four in midfield they've got this box with the play the 3-4-2-1 they did that the whole time so you think they can finish ahead of Tottenham yeah Gregor yeah they've got one game a week Amarim's quite good at keeping players fit they've got good players like Bruno and Bermot Cunha we'll see how bad the sesquic injury is but if it mounts back that helps they've got a lot of players actually yeah they should be alright I think it's quite difficult for Frank given that number one striker's been out for a while and a few managing champions league as well three games a week it's quite difficult Gregor I don't think there'll be much between them I think they'll both be like looking for fifth or sixth I don't pick one I'm not like totally behind the Ruben Amarim sort of recoveries as like I'm not saying they're good I'm just saying that they were I'm not saying I like anything I'm just saying I did the piece they're alright now this is the key thing they're an okay team progress I was at the Forest game and it was like it's fragile if they lose if they lose like one player Brian Bumo probably if they lose him almost anyone if they lose AFCON if they lose Luke Shaw again like if if they lose De Ligt as well has been excellent I think this season yeah I just feel like he's got a he's settled on something that looks like the team and the players and the personnel know their jobs and they're vaguely comfortable in it but it's still pretty fragile.

54:48Man United and Tottenham fans, we hear a lot from you all season and we love it. So get in touch with me if you think your side is definitely going to finish higher than the other one or if you want to raise some points about that game, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Now, it's International Break Week, listeners, which means if you can read on the Times website, you're going to get a load and load of excellent, quirky football features. And who better to write them than Alison Rudd? We're starting today on the Times website with an interview with a man who's scoring goals aged 50. Alison, tell us about it.

55:17Jamie Ciaracen, you may recall him from his time in the Premier League with Norwich. He started at the top, at the very top. He was a wonder kid. He could have... 1993. I know, it's astonishing, isn't it? And he was just blessed with an innate talent. And when he was 14-ish, Man United wanted him to join the class of 92. So he could have been playing alongside Beckham et al. And he didn't go. He says he'd really like to know what would have happened if he had. But he didn't go because he was undiagnosed dyslexic and the package at 14 to go to Man United would have meant going to a school, a proper school, and a new school where he knew he'd be labelled as thick.

55:57And so he stuck with Norwich because he knew their education programme was less onerous and it wouldn't be changing anything. So he stuck with Norwich and scored goals in the Premier League for Norwich. And, I mean, I could have sat with him for weeks. he's working on a biography actually autobiography which will probably come out next year sometime because there's a lot in his life so I sort of focused on the fact that he started out as this brilliant teenager who just didn't look after himself really? So what? He admitted that himself? Boozing and drinking, not training properly but he'd be scoring in the Premier League eventually Norwich got fed up in training he was losing races to Brian Gunn who was 10 years older than him and the goalkeeper.

56:42And they said, you're not looking after your talent. So he slowly went down the divisions and he's gone all the way down to the 10th tier playing for a new club called Kings Park Rangers who are based in Suffolk, which is where I met him. Sounds like a made-up computer name. Well, it was made up. It was made up. I think you have to get permission to call yourself Kings anything, and they did. Right. And so it's effectively the 10th tier of English football and he's the first player to ever score in every single one of those tiers. And when I met him, he was like, God, the media interest in me from abroad, partly because, I mean, Brazil, France, Germany, Spain, they all want to talk to him because they're like, wow, because they don't have what we have.

57:27They don't have this pyramid system. They think it's astonishing that someone is age 50 and still in the system, still in the pyramid of, you know, the greatest footballing country in the world, sort of, you could make that case. because we invented it. And he's 50. Well, yeah, Scott and I had a part to play in the early stages. Just do your part, yeah. Don't have much of a part to play now. But now, we went to a cafe, and I asked him if he wanted a cake, and he looked at me like I'd asked him if he wanted a cigar or something, because now he looks after himself. Ah, right. Now, he said himself he was overweight.

58:04He was podgy. He wouldn't have been a warner than that in the 90s. True, but he says he meets sex, players now and they go, wow, you look fit because they remember him being a bit overweight and not training properly. Now he doesn't eat carbs, doesn't drink. He's sort of sinewy. The goal he scored was the genesis of this pick. It was an excellent goal as well. But he says he's always scored that goal, a sort of looping volley. He says that's his trademark finish. Imagine having a looping volley as your trademark. What a treat. He's been doing that for over 30 years. He says he does it all the time.

58:39It wasn't a big deal. And he said he didn't even know he'd made history. But Kings Park Rangers, they saw a marketing opportunity to get their name out there and they pushed it. Very smart. Very smart indeed. I mean, Jamie Curiton's still scoring goals at 50. Just thought, any shouts for your favourite players who played in their 40s? Oh, it's going to be Teddy Sheringham. Teddy Sheringham is the oldest outfield player along with Ryan Giggs and then Kevin Phillips. He was a great, you know, kept going all the way to the end. You really do admire them, don't you, if they don't give up? One more modern one that I think we'd maybe reflect on in a few years as being remarkable.

59:10Thiago Silva. He was amazing. Really, really amazing. And so important to Chelsea as well. My favourite has got to be Brad Friedel, playing at 42. Amazing goalkeeper. 450 Premier League appearances made him the most by any player from North or South America. He also played in more consecutive games than any other player. 310. That was an amazing run. What was Gary McAllister? He wasn't getting 40, but he was getting on, wasn't he? I gave Gordon Strachan you had one Scottish bloke mentioned in there anyway Terry O'Sullivan and James Milner used to ruin all my charts because I did this like age analysis right you have this normal distribution bell curve and then you've just got so like everyone else gets rubbish as they get older and then you've got this spike around 36, 37 what's going on there it's literally these two players just James and Lentz I'll go Silver putting in elite level performances that just ruin your whole chart you've got to normalise this some way it's got a niche complaint I do like that That is the end for this podcast.

1:00:06Hamza just kind of chuntering in the background about his charts. Damn you. Damn you, Thiago Silva. Yeah, we'll have to leave it there. Hamza, Khalid, Luna, Alison Rudd and Gregor Robinson. Thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Thursday. We'll see you then.