City win leaves bad taste and managers under pressure

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1:02Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. The Premier League is back and Manchester City returned at Anfield with chants of your going down. Inflatable bananas, but ultimately a commanding win against Liverpool. On today's show, we'll discuss the significance of that game and the need for a swift punishment, as well as talking Chelsea, Ipswich, Arbolowa, Carrick, Mist, Sitters and the rest of the weekend's action. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Tottenham. It's Tom Allnott, another football reporter based in the south who specialises in Chelsea.

1:38It's Peter Rutzler and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is alongside me. As usual, a top team to get into the return of the Premier League action. And we have to start with that game at Anfield. Manchester City 3, Liverpool 0. Guys, I'm going to throw it open because I think that we could go lots of different directions with this. and it is fascinating to think of this backdrop that we now have hanging over the Premier League. I was on the editing floor yesterday, looking at our coverage and thinking, I wasn't quite sure what I thought of this game, how I felt about it, because there was so much football to enjoy.

2:12Jeremy Doku, Ryan Cherky, Munoz for Liverpool, but then of course this cloud hangs over it all, doesn't it, Gregor? How did you feel watching this game? At the same time, I'm not sure. It was strange. In the end, in the final stages in particular, when Manchester City were 3-0 up, Liverpool were down to 10 men and it was a game of keep ball and all the Oles were kind of suddenly drowned out by cheats from the Liverpool supporters that were still in the ground. And then at the end they're singing going down, going down. It's just such a bizarre state of affairs. And look, there's bits about it as well that really left a better taste to me.

2:52I know that football fans are a belligerent bunch but the sort of sense of defiance. I just don't know how anyone can have read the verdict and the decision and still feel like this is something that you can take such an entrenched position about. And I'd even say that about Enzo Mareska. I understand that it's his job to defend the club and there's no criticism of the players. If you're a footballer in this position, it's going to be a siege mentality and it's going to be almost a motivational tool. But just to hear the same line trotted out that we heard from Pep Guardiola for so many years that you trust the club completely after surely reading the decision and the verdict struck me as bizarre.

3:40Is there any other way for them to be at this point when the executives have set the line, this is the line, we are going for defiance, it's not done yet? I don't really know how, because I think we all want some kind of contrition. We've all seen that we want them to almost come out and go, yeah, we cheated. And maybe we want the supporters to start looking a bit more introspectively and start to turn on those upstairs. But it's almost like they can't yet. So this is kind of, while we're all in this sort of limbo for them, this is kind of the only position that they can really take. Because even with the press conference before the game, Alenzo Moresca is fielding all those questions, which what answers are we expecting realistically?

4:20He's still got a team to manage. This is still a team of players that are still competing for things and they're being told that there's not any other direction and that everything's fine. There is an interesting bolshiness, though, isn't there, to Enzo Maresco. He said twice now, both on Friday and the world media and everyone's eyes was on that press conference. I spoke to Paul Hurst, who was there for us, and it was 10 minutes of questions about the guilty verdict and, oh, I can't say any more. Then another 10 minutes of questions. But this kind of line of, oh, I'll be so happy when we win the appeal.

4:51I will speak then. But does that not speak to the fragility of the situation? Because if there's like a slight, if there's an element of doubt in that, it's like coming into this game, the focus is on how is City going to play? Are they going to cope with the pressure? What are the players thinking? What are they talking about? All of that is true. So if you then open up a slight part of doubt to, do you know, actually, maybe this could go wrong. Maybe Erling might leave in January. Do you know what I mean? That doubt will then lead to a collapsed performance. So I don't really know if there's another way.

5:19Also, what would you be so happy about? Well winning the appeal He'd be delighted He would have won the appeal On a technicality It would not change The public view That they cheated Absolutely not But for him It would allow him to Of course But to say it in those In those terms But he can't lose Freddie can he Like he There's no real pressure Like they went to Liverpool and it was 5-0 Is he getting the blame? Yeah That's quite right Tom I want to bring you in How did you Coming back to that idea Just to give you the broader How did you feel Watching this game? Yeah I mean I think It felt weird To me it was A kind of reminder Almost of pandemic football It reminded me of that thing of, we're playing this match because we have to.

5:54And it's because the show has to go on. It reminded me of that thing where there were no fans in the stadium, but ultimately had that feeling of the league has to keep going. And that was kind of it. Against the backdrop of something incredibly serious happening in the back. Exactly. And it's just about how you feel. And I think it really emphasises how sport is so important. The equality of everything is absolutely fundamental. because even if you take away a 5 % marginal gain, suddenly everything feels completely irrelevant. And I did feel like it, and I think it was partly linked to the kind of perfection of Man City because they were so good.

6:29You saw that last goal and it was almost when you watched Shirky score that goal, you were like, ah, that's too good, that goal. You can't score a goal like that. It was just the movement, the dummy, everything was just perfect. And you thought, well, yeah, that's why, because they're cheating, because you can produce that kind of goal when you have an extra 900 million to spend. I don't know if that's fair, but that is how you feel when you're reacting to it. I think it's relevant. Do you think that will then overlay? Because I was watching it and trying to kind of think, okay, well, because there's also the part of the fact that in the editing chair yesterday, there's two sides to this, aren't there?

6:57We had Paul Hurst and Willis Bennett out on the ground, seeing what the reaction would be from Liverpool fans, the bus arrival and things. Everyone behaves. There's not really, you know, there's chants, there's jeers. There's a bit of kind of acrimony, but there's no like badness. And we're, you know, we're pleased with that, obviously. You then turn to the match and I'm watching in a match going, well, this is interesting. You know, Elliot Anderson, my God, he's going to do a Declan Rice and they'll be singing chants about how he was cheap at half price for 117 million. And then you watch Jeremy Dockham and think, my God, he's one of the best wingers of the last five years.

7:29Incredible. But you're saying that you can't or we shouldn't be able to just enjoy that. There's a cloud, a perma-cloud until we get it. I think it's hard to, whatever you think, it's hard to prevent just kind of your gut feeling, you know, when you're watching the match. For what it's worth, I think it's fine to compartmentalise. I slightly disagree with Gregor. I feel slightly guilty almost thinking I found the fans thing quite funny. I think football fans are allowed to have a sense of humour. Let's remember it's football, it's sport. These guys, they pay a lot of money to see the game. It's not on them to hold on their shoulders everything that's happened in the boardroom when it comes to financial mismanagement.

8:05I sort of think it's fine for the fans to treat it like this. And by the way, every single supporter base of any club in the whole country, in all of Europe, would react exactly the same way. So I think in a way, let's not direct our outrage at the City fans for holding out bananas. I think that's kind of fine. And also, to be honest, Maresca, he has to hold this public stance. Whilst the club are saying, we're going to appeal, we believe that the judgment and possibly the sanctions are incorrect. You can't have your most outwardly facing spokesman put any doubt on that. I'm not saying he should put doubt on it.

8:39And I'm saying that history will, I'm pretty sure history will judge him and Pep Guardiola badly for saying that. As in once we then, if you're envisaging a world in which they lose the appeal, get whatever they're having. I don't care if they win the appeal or lose the appeal. It doesn't matter? It doesn't matter. Because of what the initial verdict would be? It's there. They talk about irrefutable body of evidence. The panel have seen that. Nothing that happens now changes the public's view, I'm sure, overwhelmingly, that City cheated on an industrial scale. if they win the appeal it's on a technicality it's something to do with law or a loophole in the rules essentially about them being able to fund you know to pump money in via Abu Dhabi's government as opposed to their sponsors that's a technicality it doesn't matter the money was put in so even on they're slightly different points aren't they Pep Guardiola and Maresca Maresca even having come in this summer this has dropped on him essentially hasn't it he's tough yeah and he's done a good job and I know I'm not expecting him to start criticising the club.

9:39I just think that you're right. There was a bit of a kind of bolshiness about it. And as it keeps saying, defiance. And I feel it was too strong. I just think there's a world where it can collapse quite quickly. Like if City, you could end up with bizarre performances. If players are suddenly, if the performance on Sunday was brilliant. I don't think you get that if there's a sense of, if there is that doubt. I just think that if he doesn't take that stance, you're overseeing a team that's in free fall and doesn't, like I said, I don't think Mureska, he's got a free pass really, I think at the moment because of the situation.

10:17That poses the question then, do you think that when, if and when the punishment comes, and obviously after this game, I think as we said, partly because of the commanding win for City, everyone starts going, well, we need a punishment now because this can't carry on. We can't keep seeing dummies in the box and Ryan Cherky dancing around. This is not on. This is not on, which is an understandable position to take. I think a lot of rival fans would feel that. And for what it's worth, by the way, I think we've slightly always felt that about Manchester City. There's always been, people often use the word cold, right, when you watch Man City.

10:46As in this isn't fair? Yeah, I mean, I feel like when you look at their dominance over the last decade or whatever, you've always kind of felt that this is a huge project, that whether or not legal or not legal has had huge amounts of funding. and it's kind of put together slightly artificially. So we've always had that feeling about Man City, right? But for the sake of argument, whilst it was within the rules, you sort of put up with it. Now it's not within the rules. You don't. So then what I was going to come to then was the idea of a punishment, both one, you think that could, you talked about a disaster for City, they've got a punishment of, let's say, 50 points deduction hanging over them, those players might react differently.

11:23But then, Gregor, would you be happier watching them, more comfortable watching them with a punishment delivered? I feel more comfortable watching the league I think it's about the league it's not really about Manchester City it's about the integrity of the league now and what the three points mean Martin Samuel's written about that many times like you need to know what you're playing for and the idea that Manchester City could lead the league for so much of the season potentially and then be relegated it's just nuts I think this weekend because we've had three weeks to build up to this game after the news so much focus on the game The game has a story and a life of its own.

12:00But once this drags on game after game, and you're good, even if you imagine from an international audience perspective, you know, watching the Premier League and having to explain this every time, well, we actually know where Manchester City at the end of the season. We don't know what these three points mean. I think it's so damaging for the Premier League. And it's, the Premier League has pursued this case. They had to pursue this case. No one's doubting the, the right reaction to doing this, but it's like the horse bolting, you know what I mean? When you let this kind of money come into the league and from the outset, this is the course you've set.

12:36We saw it with Chelsea and Roman Abramovich and now you have with Manchester City as well. This is sort of that outcome and I think there will be lasting damage to the Premier League. Just before I ask a serious question, any regular listeners will know that I have a tendency to be quite silly as proved with the front cover of our game. This morning, I had a very silly idea for how the punishment could be delivered out. Gregor, you remember from us discussing the EFL Extra show, Sheffield Wednesday, revealing at the end of the season how many points they wouldn't be deducted at the end of the season with that countdown clock.

13:07Imagine if we get to the end of the season and we don't know and then Richard Masters walks onto the pit or whoever's did it, pushes a big button and it's a bit like pointless. City are on the screen and they just go... All the way down the table. Where are they going? Where are they going? And then teams are going up. but it's like Everton are in the Europa League all of a sudden. You'd watch that though, wouldn't you? You would, yeah. Oh, you're a dafty. I am absolutely a dafty, which allows me to then ask a very more serious question about the punishment because that's what all fans... I asked Matt Lawton, maybe this time last week, a long time in weeks, a long time in football, what your instincts are.

13:43You know, you all talk to people within the game. You've all done this long enough to have gut instincts about when we might get this. Do you think this game and the reaction to it that we're all having and other people are having will further the calls for this to be quick? Because Matt Lawton said, I think we'll get it this season. I don't think we'll get it before Christmas. I think a lot of other people are looking at that appeal process. When do you think you will get it? And I assume the question to when would you like it would be now. Yes, we would like it as soon as possible. I think there is a slight context here and I say this having sort of written a piece about Juventus and Calciopoli 20 years ago.

14:19Yes, very good piece. In the Sunday Times. And actually, like, one of the problems they had after the verdict of relegating Juventus, and they decided that speed was really of the essence. And they did it within, you know, basically a couple of months, basically. They came through from deciding to deciding that Juventus would get relegated and reducing them by points. And there's always a sense that it was kind of rushed. And I think if you look at the short term, of course, we want it to be resolved as quickly as possible. But I think the other thing is it has to be done right. and it has to be done in a way that everyone feels like it's been done properly and that it's been done in a way that means that all the arguments have been heard.

14:57Because the other thing that you have is if it's done very quickly and it's rushed, you have 10 years of people saying it wasn't done properly. And you have City fans saying it was rushed because the Premier League just wanted to do it so they could do it before the end of the season. So you have to balance these two things. Of course, in the short term, having watched this match yesterday, everyone says we need it tomorrow, we need it tomorrow. But you know what? For the long-term benefit of the league and for the long-term integrity of English football, it also has to be done properly. Yeah, look, we all want it as quick as possible but there's a process to follow and we want all of this to happen much quicker and ultimately Manchester City are the reason why it hasn't happened quicker.

15:31You see some of the details about the way that they've dragged their heels and not complied with the investigation. They'll continue doing that as long as possible. So yeah, you've got to follow the process and Tom's right. We've already had people like Ferran Soriano talking about the conspiracy theories and impartiality. Just raising these words that put doubt on the process. We can't have any of that. It's got to be certain. Yeah, I think the weekend doesn't make a difference to that. The process will be what the process is. But this is going to go on for quite a while. I mean, once we do get the sanctions.

16:11When you say quite a while, no one's giving me a guess. Anyone hopeful of before Christmas? I'm not. For what? Nourishment. Even if the punishment comes down, say the appeal is heard, we get the sanctions, City will seek to appeal the sanctions. So, I mean, we're going to be in that period again, and it'll be even worse because we know what it might be, and then it may not be implemented. I mean, the ideal is it's before the end of the season. I'm sure everyone wants it to be before the end of the season. Maybe apart from... The key metric is that next season, the placings are decided, and UEFA will have that.

16:41If Man City can get thrown out of the Champions League or whatever it is, UEFA will want to know that before next season, clearly. And next season, if they're going to go down to the championship, that has to be set. So that's kind of the, I think that's the sort of lowest threshold. It has to be set in place before next season because you can't have two seasons being spoiled. Gregor, you look quite angry at that question. I just don't want you to let you finish. No, I mean, there's kind of two parts as well, aren't there? There's one on Peel already underway, which, you know, Martin last week tried to lay out when that could be finally heard.

17:15and then there would be a second appeal against the sanctions. So none of it's going to be that quick. We just need to deal with it. And I think this was a momentous occasion, and the size of the game, the location, the club that arguably suffered most from City's cheating, it will die down a bit. It will die down a bit. But that's why I think it's important to start there, because it gives us the framework for how we're going to talk about it for the rest of the season. On Thursday, we're going to be talking about City-PSG, and it'll be a similar kind of conversation. I've obviously already lauded Ryan Cherky and Jeremy Docku and Elliot Anderson and things a word on Liverpool in terms of this performance I thought it was good in a kind of way of where it's an embattled side with loads of injuries put out a team that you look at the starting 11 and go oh goodness me that could be trouble and actually they're quite spirited and they run around quite a lot but there's still quite a lot of question marks Munoz looks great I really like him a lot, quite old school, quite simple a lot more questions around Florian Vurts probably being the only one is this ever going to work?

18:12Thoughts on the Liverpool performance, guys? I thought they started both halves really well and kind of looked like what Anthony Iriola wants them to look like. Yeah. But I don't think you can maintain that for the 90 minutes and I think even in those periods they didn't look like they had much in the way of craft or ideas. You're right, this is a game you want Verts or Barcola to kind of really step up and neither did. Verde's lost the ball 17 times. Normally with that stat, you'd go, well, that's because they're trying things. But I just... No, a lot of sloppy, like the ball bouncing off him or just a really badly misplaced pass.

18:50Like, he was... Really befuddling footballer, isn't he, at this point, in terms of what he's going to be at Liverpool, where they're trying to make him work. He just looks like he's just questioning everything he's doing, which is like the last thing you want in the number 10. It's all on instinct. And I think they were unlucky. I think Gavin Birch, it was a soft way to be sent off. The first yellow is soft, isn't it? Even for the spin of the leg? I think the second one is he's midway inside the City half. The second one is stopping an attack. He's like, he's 15 yards inside his own half. And it's like, it's an attempt to win the ball and he's bounced off him.

19:22That's not a booking. It should not be a booking. I thought it was harsh. Clearly it changed the game and he changed the game. Really changed the game as well because Ryan Gravenberch was in very good form, I thought, in that one. But yeah, interesting to see if Andoni Iraiola can crack the Florian-Vertz problem. Let's move on to Chelsea. Pete, you were there to watch them beat Bournemouth 5-1. Turns out, you know, it pays to not go on international duty, judging by Cole Palmer and Jordan Henderson and their free kicks and all the chat. Before we get into that, just about this Chelsea performance, a good one, more goals, still a bit chaotic there.

19:56Yeah, it was a little bit more stable. It's quite interesting. I mean, just coming into this game with Chelsea, it's, are they going to have control? Are we going to see, is this just what Xavi Alonso wants? It's just chaos and just hoping you're turning up the right side of it every week. It's interesting, before the game, Alonso said it's impossible to have control in the Premier League. I'd asked him that because on Thursday I went down to see Marco Rosa and he was basically saying, well, after the first game in charge of Bournemouth, and Rosa was in charge of Leipzig. His style of football is a bit more chaotic.

20:32It's a bit more geggenpressing. and he just said after one game I'd been working a lot with the players on build up under pressure but after that first game I've changed my mind, I'd rather be working maybe it's working in other areas, it's pressing in other areas of the pitch, it's just being effective in both boxes because everything in the middle is just a bit wild and that really applied and has applied to Chelsea this season there's definitely a sense of Alonso adjusting how he wants his team to look but the biggest difference was just the midfield too Does that then come back to your point I was just interested listening to you talk about wild in the middle Is this why everyone's spending 120 million on midfielders because you need someone who can control the wild Yeah to a degree it's almost like total control is almost as I said he feels it's impossible in the Premier League but to have it for a longer enough period and to weather key moments so Chelsea brought back Moises Caicedo he had a calf injury made a massive difference as did Jordan Henderson, not just in terms of the ground he hovers, which surprised me and would surprise you given his age, but just his leadership, which Chelsea have missed for some time.

21:41But in that game itself, we had Chelsea rush into a lead. They've been brilliant with fast starts. Bournemouth pulled a goal back. It was a bit of a fluke. I think Caicedo's clearance hits Evan Nilsson and goes in. But it was in that moment that Chelsea have wavered and it felt like, oh this game's going to open up again this match report's going to go in the bin but it just didn't and I think it did feel like the key difference was just having a Henderson and a Caicedo together in the midfield is that sustainable long term though like Henderson in particular do you think like because he was obviously brought in with all this vibes based mantra everyone was like oh he's going to play two games in the Carabao Cup he's now got yeah No one had on their bingo card Jordan Henderson playing a commanding performance against Bournemouth at home and scoring free kicks and looking really good.

22:33Yeah, I think the key point is Kaiseido. Kaiseido makes a massive difference. The ground he covers, he makes a lot of difficult, dirty work look very easy. His impact on this game was pretty clear. Yes, Henderson scored two fantastic goals. And his impact is more than just vibes. It is more than just he is going to play some games. Morgan Rogers sort of defended him didn't he afterwards some of his quotes were interesting he's like he's still probably the fittest player at the club everyone just thinks everyone who plays with he's experienced he's a lot more than that he's won it all so yeah he's clearly made a bit of an impact and those of us who said he is there for vibes may have to hear words yeah wouldn't be wouldn't be the first time on this podcast in terms of Morgan Rogers' comments it's interesting hearing him talk about free kicks and the idea that he headed off to England to do his duty for his country and Cole Palmer couldn't make it.

23:25Xabi Alonso talked about that in Friday's press conference, didn't he, Pete, in terms of that injury and worries. But old Cole and Jordan, my mates, back home working on free kicks while I'm slogging it away for England. Yeah, quite fun, but also quite telling of a competitive streak at the very top level. Yeah, other than they've got plenty of takers. I mean, Rodgers was joking really, but just saying that he was supposed to be taker and comes back and realise that they've worked on stuff and suddenly Henderson's taking free kicks. It was a really good free kick as well. It really is postage stamp.

23:52I love the fact that Cole Palmer said which corner are you celebrating in if you score that's just a great bit of banter on the pitch it's funny because obviously that the day was supposed to be about Cole Palmer because Cole Palmer signed a new contract so now it's 2034 which is eight years it's a pay rise fundamentally that's the key factor and he had a great start to the game he sets up the first goal with a 50 yard run and yeah it's Henderson we end up talking about but Palmer's interesting I mean obviously missing with England duty and Alonso had to sort of defend him really before the game but he also mentioned that it was the same injury he said it was a bit of the pobalgia which is the groin area I've pronounced that pobalgia?

24:41have I said it wrong? I don't know it's a good effort it's a good effort that's the one he's had before right? Yes, so the point being it was referencing injuries that disrupted last season, which I'd say is a concern that needs managing. Of course, last season was so interrupted. Yeah. He has had a full pre-season, did play all of the games before the international break. So, yeah, keeping him fit is key. It feels like with that front three, I mean, they are exceptional, but they're also so ruthless. I mean, they only had 10 shots in this game. Yeah. They scored five. João Pedro looking good as well for not turning up for Brazil.

25:14Bournemouth. Are we worried about Marco Rose at all at Bournemouth? In 17th, just for the context, they've got Sturm Graz at home in the Europa League, then Sunderland at home, then AC Milan at home, then Manchester United away in these big two weeks for anyone who's got European football, four games in two weeks. How was he after the game? Do you sense any kind of, it was interesting hearing you talk about him wanting to change style quite quickly. Not style, but just what he's working on, what he thinks is important to work on. I don't think he could change his stylistic approach, which is very similar to what Ereola had played, which Ereola referenced.

25:48But does it potentially suggest the guy who was like, oh, I wasn't quite prepared for this? Obviously, he was well prepared. I think it's interesting because it does suggest that the Premier League is a beast of its own. And as much as you can see it on the television and you can watch it and you can speak to people, you don't get a feel for it until you're actually there on the touchline. I don't feel like... I feel like Rose's teams, they've played pretty well. I don't think anyone's looked at Bournemouth in these opening games and gone they've looked a bit shaky here they've thrown away a lot of points they have dropped a lot of points which is clearly a concern this is the first big defeat and now the European games come in it turns up the pressure a bit more and they have had injuries as well which doesn't help obviously Alex Scott not available no Clive no Silva had a bit of a nightmare in this one for one of the goals as well I think they've actually looked quite good like a little continuity like for a large you know largely speaking and as I say they have thrown away a lot of points and they've had quite a difficult start as well but with European games coming now it does make it harder for them I'd be more concerned if Rosa was kind of saying this is my style and I'm not going to change it for anything I always quite like it when a new manager comes in especially when they haven't got experience in the league and they say well yeah I've seen what this is and now I'm going to change it a little bit I agree with Gregor I think the eye test and this stage of the season and we'll come to this later Tom you know after six games like the results are there the table is there but I also think the eye test is really important and I think people who have seen Bournemouth play are not seeing a team who are going to be in the bottom four.

27:12And let's not forget that I think the Bournemouth hierarchy will be very informed by the Iriola experience, where basically Iriola came in and had a terrible start and it took a while and then it turned out pretty okay. So I think that's there as well. I think I asked if he was going to get sacked as well. Honestly, terrible, terrible questioning on this show. I want to talk about another new manager just before we go to a break. Pia, Sarge and Crystal Palace getting a win at home against Nottingham Forest in the Oliver Glasner derby. A brilliant game, this one. I was watching this in the office and thinking, God I hope City-Liverpool's as fun as this Absolutely crackers In many ways Nottingham Forest will be watching it Thinking how on earth did we not win that game Probably the answer to that is that Liam De Lappe didn't take his chances But a really important win for Crystal Palace I'm really loving Daishi Kamada's emergence As kind of a new attacking midfielder Who scores goals Speaking to a Palace fan on the desk Who was saying Maybe one of those That just takes a little bit of time To get used to the Premier League As another topic that we keep coming back to You know wild to be fair But Listen It might be a late bloomer but he's really coming for him as well.

28:11Adam Wharton impressing in this game. Benitez in goal making some great saves but Forrest would be looking at this one and thinking, oh my goodness me, where do we stand on the De Lapp wonder save from Benitez? He's got the whole goal to aim at and he's managed to boot it straight at the goalkeeper. Does anything sum up Liam De Lapp better? It's so hard. So hard. It's such a good connection that deserves to go in but maybe he should have just sliced it on the ground and it would have gone in. I don't know. Imagine if he'd missed it and it would come off the bottom of his boot, it would have just dribbled into the net and he would have got a goal.

28:42Yeah, could have studded it. And they kind of overshadowed Gibbs-White's rocket, hit the bar before that as well. Which had a fingertip on it, I think, from Benitez. Really great performance from the keeper. Yeah, the stat was eight big chances. It's the most team that's not won, I think, since 2012, something like that. So, yeah, they had a ridiculous number of chances and that one was the most striking. the strike being the right word ridiculous strike Pete, see Liam De Lapp coming good Alison's praised him on this podcast but that was for a goal from long range against Aston Villa in a win for Forrest and I was watching this thinking is this the point is this why Tony Cascarino always tells us the hardest thing is just putting the ball in the back of the net in these moments people like Harry Kane do it so brilliantly it's one thing scoring from 25 yards every now and again but got to take the ones that are between the goal am I being a little harsh on Liam De Lape?

29:33Can he come good for Forrest? I mean, De Lape's not really about finesse, I suppose. That's not really how I'd characterise him as a forward. I think it's a good place for him to be. Glasner's a good coach to be. I think it's good being with Chris Wood as well in terms of profile, a player that you can learn from because I think that's the kind of trajectory he'll go on. Yeah, could work on a bit of a... I think he's a good fit for the way Glasner wants them to play as well. He can be the target man, but he can also kind of drop and link and you'll have players around them he's always been someone I've done pieces I think when he signed for Chelsea speaking to some of his previous coaches and what not where they've always since he was a kid told him stop lashing the ball really?

30:21yeah he's not listened because he did it as a big guy as a 14 year old who was twice his size as everyone and he'd probably score from 30 yards every week he'll do that every now and then in the Premier League but he does that is the kind of the final piece of the puzzle for him because he's got a huge amount to his game he does need that little bit of subtlety around the box maybe early days to be judging Liam De Lappe at Forest early days might be a theme of part two big weeks for Crystal Palace though they've got Lyon, Brighton, Besiktas, Newcastle exciting times for Palace fans Palace are the subject of the quiz question to take us into the break since his Premier League debut in January 2018 only two players have received more yellow cards than Palace's Jefferson Lerma who has 56.

31:02One of those players is a centre-back, the other is a left-back. Can you name them? Find out after the break.

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33:38Welcome back to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Gregor Robertson, Tom Allnut and quiz maestro Peter Rutzler with me. Got answers to both questions. The two players with more yellow cards than Jefferson Lerma since Lerma's debut in January 2018 were Peter. James Tarkovsky and Luke Shaw. James Tarkovsky and Luke Shaw. Wonderful stuff. There's one for you to test your pals. It's not really general good knowledge, that, is it? Oh, come on, Pete. Stop it. Yellow cards. Look at me. I was looking at Gregor and thinking I'd beaten Gregor, but Gregor's not bothered about that.

34:11He is bothered. He is bothered. than me. He is bothered. One thing about this lad is that he bloody loves a quiz. He loves a quiz and he gets very upset when he doesn't get the answer. That's Pete Rutzler all over, isn't he? He gets the answer, both answers. He's like, nah, I did nothing, did nothing, you know. Ultimately, downplaying it. Wonderful achievements. So just before mentioning Everton, their draw against Hull. Speaking of misses, talking about Liam DeLapp, we've all seen Tiano Barry's miss. I mean, this guy, he's struggling to get out of the, like, depiction of him as a bit of a hapless, useless striker, isn't he?

34:43I think he's going to come good, you know. I like him. I like him. I like him. He's one of those where you watch it and you go, you do lots of things right, but you don't do the bit where you score from six yards for an open goal. Good finish for the goal, though. Yeah, that one was good, but it's the same as Liam DeLapp. Just do the one where it's a tap-in. It's the old thing, isn't it? You know, be in the right place, lots of chances. I quite like him. He's unpolished, but I mean, the one that he missed, he couldn't quite get his feet right, He's sort of in the wrong spot. He didn't quite...

35:12That's fairly important for a footballer at any level, isn't it? You wait, Tom. We'll come back in the season until Barry will score 15 goals. I like him. I like him. But, I mean, what do you like about him? He's quick. I think he gets in the right positions. I like his running. I think he presses well. I think he's good in the team. And he's young. Like, I think it's one of those signings where, you know, we're expecting big things in the Premier League straight away. And let's wait and see. People said similar things about Nicholas Jackson early on. Now a very effective striker. I like Barry.

35:44I think he can do better than you think. We'll see. You're not convinced, are you? I really like him. I just don't know. I'm an editor. I'm all about narrative arcs and perceptions and things like that. Missed chances like that. You're struggling to get away with the idea. Same as Liam DeLapp. Just leathers it all the time. Always looking at the negatives. No, no. I'm just looking at the big picture all the time. I'm the biggest dreamer on here. Anyway. In eight, Everton in fifth. Edithan, of course, up for sale after that news on Friday. There's a brilliant breakdown by Paul Joyce on the Times website about what might happen next for the club.

36:14Make sure you check it out. On back to the action, Ipswich 2, Fulham 1. Tom, you were there for this one. Great. Was it a smash and grab? Was it a deserved win for Ipswich? Oh, I mean, for an hour, no one deserved to win this game. And I was watching it thinking, this is two teams who could be going down. But it kind of exploded into life. And by two goals, first one from Sessegnon, doing what Sessegnon can do. He's got a great left foot, touches it on the end of the box, bangs it in the corner. And then I didn't really, I mean, it's hard. Gary O 'Neill in press conferences afterwards is always extremely positive about Ipswich.

36:49He always says that they played brilliantly and deserve to win. And that was obvious that we were going to win. But I was thinking, Gary, I don't know, mate. I didn't really see it. And I mean, it's another brilliant goal. You know, Uttara just smashes it into the corner from distance. And it needed to be that kind of goal I feel for Ipswich. And then, you know, these days when you've got so much added time, there's always time to go and get a winner. And you know, O'Shea nodding at the front post. It was sort of a game where you felt like Fulham could have won. You know, I know afterwards all the kind of scrutiny on our blow now, the pressure on him.

37:23And I feel for him a little bit because it was the kind of match where you, as a manager, you must just be like tearing your hair out because they're 1-0 up in the 87th minute and they've thrown it away. But Ipswich, I don't think they've got lots of quality. I don't. And I think that could still be a big problem for them in the long term. But they have got a real togetherness. You know, I know that. And that sort of feels a little bit kind of trite. But they do. The team, you know, really knows what they're doing. There's a real kind of cohesion. Portman Road, their energy, they're difficult to beat there.

37:51They press well, you know. And, you know, I think it's always impressive when you have a team that's slightly lower down the league who are really, you know, robbing the ball high up all the time, created quite a few chances like that. I think they've got a good chance. I still think Ipswich will be down there, you know, come the end of the season, but I think they've got a good chance. Three points from... That pass for Emerson to the back post, I think he had it against the post when they were one day. That was beautiful. He turned to the bench at that point when he hit it. Yeah, Emerson hit like that.

38:18And he's looked to the bench and said, what more can I do? Why am I playing with this lot? In terms of Fulham and Alvaro Arbeloa, many people wondering what a big job it was following Marco Silva at Fulham and obviously the pivot to signing a load of Real Madrid youngsters in the summer from the kind of tried and tested idea that Fulham had for a long time of signing Premier League cast-offs that had a great experience in the league and turning them into very solid players. Tell me about what you saw on the pitch firstly, but then what you heard in the press conference after from Arbaloa and what that makes you think about where we're heading.

38:53Yeah, I mean, to deal with the press conference afterwards, I sort of, I mean, Arboloha looked like a manager who was slightly under pressure for the first time. And he comes across to me, his thing, Arboloha, is that he's very cool, you know, and calm and collected, company man. You know, it was Real Madrid. It was like, let's put this guy in the cauldron because ultimately, you know, he has that kind of composure. I felt like after this match, he looked like someone who knew that this was a big result thrown away, you know, and he was asked. To be honest, it was quite an innocuous question. It was something like about the noise, you know, the noise around him.

39:24and he sort of really, it was almost as if, you know, he has this kind of golden trump card that he's played for Real Madrid and managed it, but he knows he shouldn't say it. But, you know, in the moment, he just couldn't resist. And, you know, he said, I'm sure people have seen it. He said, you know, maybe you don't know who, you know, you don't know me, but I've played for the best club in the world. I've coached the biggest club in the world. I've had pressure since I was a kid, you know. And I just think that doesn't go down well with supporters. It comes across as slightly superior, you know.

39:50And I think ultimately it's true that he has that record, but Fulham is a different beast. It's a different club. The Premier League is a different job and can he turn this team into a team that gets the points for survival, I think is a big question mark. Did they play well? They played quite well and I quite like how Fulham, I think, we were talking about this before the international break and we shouldn't forget in those draws against Man United, which they should have won, the draw away at Liverpool, where they played well. Played really well, yeah. They were more pragmatic. They were more solid in midfield.

40:17This was less of a kind of gung-ho performance but they've given away now. I think they've lost three games and drawn one by conceding goals in the last 15 minutes. So there is a fragility there. I didn't think Abloh's substitutions helped. It was interesting afterwards that O 'Neill said that he felt that Ipswich were the fitter team. You don't often get managers kind of saying that about opposition. He said, I thought Fulham were tiring. I think that's true. They've got Coventry next and Hull in the next two games. I feel like Abloh needs points from those matches, otherwise he's going to be in trouble.

40:46Pete, you're a man who covers and follows Fulham a little bit as well as covering Chelsea. So what's your reading of the situation that Arbaloa finds himself in? Only six games in, of course. That is the caveat that we have to throw at all of this, but they are bottom. Yeah, I mean, you can... There are some games you lose and you go, well, it's a bit unlucky there. But I think the way they've lost this game... Ipswich is a massive game. Obviously, they're still looking for his first win. The other two games they lost were Sunderland and Crystal Palace, two teams that have also not started particularly well.

41:16I know Palace won this weekend, but as we've been saying, a massive smash and grab. The nature of the Palace defeat was incredibly naive defending that was incredibly alarming, which he then seemed to, as Tom rightly said, adjusted, became a little bit more pragmatic, added Sander Berger next to Shea Charles as a sort of a double pivot, so took away from what was quite gung-ho, I mean, pretty naive way of approaching a game if you're Fulham beforehand, and they just weren't getting results from it. the way this game ended the Tom Tom's mentioned it the substitutions didn't go down well with supporters I mean he took off Shea Charles with 20 minutes to go and replaced him with Manuel Angel he's one of these three Real Madrid Castilla players who's been signed obviously he worked with him before a player that's not played in the Premier League is incredibly diminutive as a lovely footballer on the ball could really control the game with the ball but for the Premier League having not played in the league it's and you're holding on to a one-nil lead at Ipswich who really need the points in a massive game it felt like a bizarre decision I think he also brought on Rodrigo Munez and played two strikers towards the end of the game it just looked like someone who it doesn't look great it didn't look like he had control of the game and when as Tom said you've dropped points in previous games it's not as though the coach is impacting the game in the right way which will feel a bit more prescient for Fulham because I think Marco Silva last season I think as a coach he I think he's his substitutes scored the most goals in games yeah so that's quite yeah that is one massive talk about him being a game changer with his practical moves right exactly and then like Tom said the comments have gone down really badly because it's as much as yes you did play for Real Madrid and you have coached Real Madrid you've not coached in the Premier League before it's just completely irrelevant so yeah I think he's in a lot of trouble we did a piece last month and I said October would be defining for his tenure no one was going to jump ship too early because they've gone in on him they've bought these Real Madrid players as well but if you lose to Ipswich and lose to Hull on Saturday I think he's in serious trouble I was just smiling because I was thinking back to days at Portman Road when Paul Lambert used to say the same thing as Ipswich manager he'd been at big clubs huge clubs and the fans hated because he played for Borussia Dortmund and Celtic and whatnot.

43:39He always banged on about this so there would be a few wry smiles, I think, in the press room at Portman Ode there. Having said, I think back to the chance that Oscar Bob missed as well. I think it was 1-0 still then. Cutting on his left foot and he just ballooned it over the bar. It could have still been some fine margins. I know the guys have said that, but they're finding ways to lose games. That's the real alarm. Can I give another shout out to another quote from a press conference So I thought it was really good. Which went under the radar. It was when O'Shea had a baby, a baby girl in the week.

44:13And O 'Neill said, it's amazing how when something big happens in your personal life and you manage to back it up again at the weekend. It was as if having a baby was the same as having a good training session. Scoring a last minute winner. I'm sure his partner would have been delighted with that comparison. Backed it up at the weekend. Fantastic. Love football analogies when they creep into real life. We'll come back to some managers under pressure and maybe bring Arbeloa back into the conversation in just a second. But other results on Saturday, Brighton winning again. Alison had talked last week about whether Brighton could follow up their big win against Arsenal, and they did so with a win at Sunderland.

44:50Aston Villa and Brentford. Brentford love drawing. Really fun game, though, 2-2. Arsenal beating Leeds, but Leeds putting in a really good performance. So I wanted to bring in at this point, It's time for Tom's favourite October question. Only six games in, you look at the table and go, Brighton are in third, Brentford are in fourth, Everton are in fifth, Leeds are in seventh, Hull and Ipswich are in the top ten. It's going to happen. We're going to get a brilliant, new, mad Premier League season. And all these clever reporters, particularly Tom Allnut, look at me with a wry smile and think, oh, bless him.

45:22Oh, bless him. What a dreamer. What a dreamer. What a hopeful little soul. It ain't going to happen. Thoughts? I've come prepared with stats, Tom. Oh, here we go. Here we go. So last season after six games. Crystal Palace, third. Yep. Finished 15th. Yep. Tottenham, fourth. Finished 17th. Sunderland, fifth. Finished seventh. There you go. That's my hope. Liverpool were top. Finished fifth. At the bottom, to be fair, Burnley West Ham Wolves, already in the bottom three. Aston Villa was 16th. Finished fourth. Newcastle 15th finish much higher so basically I don't think so basically I might have one I might hope for a Sunderland an outlier and could that be Brighton could that be Brighton could that be Brentford it could be either of them maybe both maybe both but there was that start I think Brentford have been behind five minutes five minutes in some small amount of seconds over the whole course of the season that's miles ahead of anyone they are a really really tough team to play it's like you hear after every game the opponent saying that now too like John McGinn saying afterwards they're a really hard team to play against like he was bemoaning the way that they cut through them to equalise after he'd made it 2-1 that AYA goal that was a great goal that was a great goal slight deflection but a brilliant move but you hear that every week now and it's true like particularly at the GTEC as well so yeah they look brilliant and then Brighton you know when you hear Tony Bloom saying he thinks there's possibly an opportunity this season given the context Yeah come on he's quite clever if he can say it Yeah Martin Hardy writing about that in the game today he knows numbers as well as anyone the percentages and the fact that they're keeping clean sheets for fun which has not been something they've been historically known for I think there's an opportunity I think we said at the start of the season I think Leeds will have a far better season too I think the others will rise up the table Tom's right When we say others though because we're going to come on to two of the other big teams Manchester United and Tottenham to finish but Liverpool in ninth large consensus seems to be from the early days that it's a bit messy still feeling finishing the top six you still think they will yeah I think I don't know what will happen to United but you know even if they change the manager again let's not talk about that we're going to have to they'll probably climb into the top six as well like I think Villa will climb the table the longer that the players new players are working with Emery it is It's an uncertain sort of landscape, undoubtedly.

47:58And for much of the same reasons we spoke about at the start of the season, a lot of the biggest and best teams look way off it. But money ultimately always tells in the end. Big final thought from you. Yeah, I think Brighton looked really good this year. I mean, we talked about how they've had a lot of turnover in the summer. I think it's 33 players in playing stuff, in and out. Which is, I mean, Brighton do a lot of this that we don't really talk about. and then suddenly a player will pop up two years later and go, oh, where have you been? Yeah, I mean, we're talking about control earlier and Fabian Herzl is really interesting in that sense because when he was appointed, I think a lot of people looked at him and went, okay, really young coach, obviously, but is his style of football going to work?

48:41It was very, very aggressive, but very, very high intensity. And it's like the Premier League sort of moved to him, which again just speaks to how Brighton... Brighton's so on trend that they set the trend for managers and style. Right. I mean, obviously, there's European games coming up for them as well, which may slow them down. But Brentford, I mean, from the outset, I mean, just the fact they had the stability in the summer, not had the same term they had a year before. Keith Andrews has had a whole season with them. Like, see Kevin Shard is stepping up and being really impressive. Lewis Potters looked very good in the early part of the season.

49:13They're in a really good place to do it. And Leeds. I mean, we haven't really talked much about Leeds, but he's been brilliant for a long time. And Daniel Farker going out before the game saying, look, This is not a fluke. We've been, you know, look at the last 12 months. We're fifth. And he's right. They were excellent in that game against Arsenal. I mean, Arsenal finding that way. I'm wondering whether Bruno Guimaraes is going to end up being one of the signings of the season. They didn't sign a striker, but they did sign a midfielder who can score from the edge of the box, which might just be as important.

49:36Did you see Nani Madueke celebrating before the goal went in? Have you seen this? No, but it's one thing to celebrate a tap-in when you're like next to him. He's like out on the wing. It's like a long-range camera angle. and the ball is being laid off to Guimares, who's running onto it, and Noni Madueke's got arms up. He's like, he's going to roll the team. That's faith in your teammates. That is wonderful to see. An important win for Arsenal that keeps them in second. We're talking about managers under pressure and the idea of big teams rising eventually. So let's finish with Tottenham and Manchester United.

50:08Tottenham in 18th, Manchester United in 13th. One all-draw at Old Trafford on Saturday evening. I posed the question, Gregor, on Thursday's show as to at the end, will this be an exciting game between these two sides as we've often seen, or will it be, pretty dire spectacle of football? I think it was probably the latter with a bit of fun near the end. Tom, you weren't there, but you cover Tottenham for us. I found myself thinking this was both quite a good performance and an uplifting point for Tottenham. I don't know whether that says a lot about the position they're in, which is 18th and without a win, or whether that can actually be just taken in its own right.

50:43What do you think? I think it was a very positive afternoon Spurs, actually. You know, and I know it's not a win, but I think they played very well. And I've said, I think, quite a lot that Spurs have been playing quite well this season without getting anything for it. And in part, that's because they've been collapsing in games as soon as something goes against them. And I think that was another box ticked, really. Like you can say that it could easily have gone another way where, you know, they get a man sent off and lose that match. But they didn't. And to get that last minute goal, I think, shows something that Spurs haven't done for a long time, which is when everything is against them, they didn't fold.

51:17You know, they did actually get something out of the match. And I think the first hour, I mean, I sort of disagree with you, Tom. I don't think it was a great game, but I thought Spurs played well. You know, I think they set the tempo. I thought they created chances. I think Spurs are a good team to watch at the moment when they're playing well. The problem is that you've got this sort of Jekyll and Hyde team where when they're really good, they can look really good. But also when they're terrible, they're terrible. And it's about converting chances. And clearly the other big positive is that Solanke, you know, gets a goal, which Deserby gives him the captain's armband in the hope of giving him some confidence.

51:47And they'll hope now that that's a corner turn because ultimately Spurs have been creating chances. They just haven't been sticking it in the net. So if this can be a platform for them to push forward, then I think it was ultimately a pretty positive afternoon for them. Where did you make the changes? A lot of people, I've seen a lot of people online, Tottenham fans in particular, looking at the starting line-up going, quite a lot of changes, players brought back in who'd maybe been not discarded, but we hadn't seen as much of. Is that about freshening it up? Is that about maybe international break?

52:16He's seen and worked with them on the training ground? I think a bit of all of those things. I mean, Ben Zankur, for example, he's done a lot of travelling and that's always the way off international break. I think Fernandes is an interesting one because I thought when he came on, he made a really big difference in those kind of latter stages. And a lot of people who have seen Fernandes playing Spurs have sort of said, well, he looks great. And De Zerbi, I think, is still sort of trying to find the right role for him in midfield when actually I think long term the Fernandes-Tanali kind of double pivot is going to be the way forward.

52:45But there's still, I mean, a lot of these players are still finding, you know, fitness and sharpness. This is the first time, you know, people like Kudus and Solanke are sort of getting through 90 minutes. You know, you've got Maddison coming on and Spurs are still a sort of a work in progress. But I do think that after this game, they'll, you know, go into Marbella this week for a nice sort of team bonding trip. I think the vibe would be pretty good there. Brilliant celebration from Roberto de Zerbi as well, wasn't it? Do you see him pick up the football and you can tell he was just about to boot it absolutely miles and thought, no, I might get booked for that or it might hit someone.

53:15He grabs it and bites it. He loves biting things, doesn't he? He's got a quite ferocious bite. He's an intense chap. He's his fist. He's an intense chap. Just before we come on to Manchester United, the sending off, Ben Tancur, not what you want from Tottenham, what we'd seen before from them with Romero and things. Not if you're Deserby. Deserby sounds like you liked it. You like what, even though he got sent off? So Zerbic spoke afterwards and said... You think in a weird way, yeah, but it looks good when they've been drawn. If they'd lost one, it would have looked terrible. Absolutely. But he's saying Tottenham, this club, this team, in this moment, a reaction like that, we need to...

53:51Well, let's paraphrase him. That's basically what he was saying. Did he kiss him, didn't he? Did he say that? Yeah. Yeah, like, you can see his point as well because he keeps saying we need to become a team. Like, that's... We need to... He's talking about character, really. like he needs to see a bit more of that and Benton Kerr you know sometimes he crosses the line and he did on this occasion Shaw kind of clearly provoked him like it was a pretty he was perhaps a little fortunate red card push or a yellow card push right on the borderline do we think he gets any context for the fact that he's broken his leg in his career before and a few people scissored in that's where the red mist is is it a red like everyone's been like yeah Shaw definitely should have been sent off I mean it is an aggressive push don't get me wrong but I'm kind of with you it just seems a bit unfair He did that and then for the reaction he was sent off.

54:42But anyway, I thought it was interesting that De Zerbi said that afterwards. And you're right, he can only say that after the fact that they got the last minute equaliser. But I also think it comes from De Zerbi has set this stance out. No matter what people think about De Zerbi being very combustible, he actually has been generally very loyal to the players. The idea that this is not the moment to criticise, this is the moment to come together, I think he's sticking with that. Yeah, well, we started the show on one side of Manchester. Let's finish it on the other with Manchester United. We're talking about character and spirit and things.

55:11I'd say that's fairly lacking in this Manchester United side. Big worries for Michael Carrick in this game. I'm going to mention two brief positives just to give you a nice. Kobi Mainu, again, every time I watch him, I think, how did Ruben and Rimm ever not play this guy? And Joshua Zerksi looked quite good, which is maybe the kind of benchmark for where Manchester United are at, that Joshua Zerksi is coming off the bench and looking quite good. But before we get into, and this partly is getting into Carrick, because I'm watching this game and lots of people are talking about being under pressure and understandably so.

55:39But when you have performances like this and it's similar against Everton, couldn't hold on to a win, late goal from Maitland-Niles and in this one, Lissandro Martinez decides just to not defend. I mean, Greg, I can't... He's trying to be clever. I think he's trying to get... Is it clever to not look at the ball when a cross is coming in? Because he's looking the other way. I think he's trying to get Zolanki on his side and then hope that the ball goes the other side of both of them. Yeah. And he's woefully miscalculated that. You're the expert here, but to me, he's an absolute myth of a defender.

56:12Like, he's the best defender who I've never seen defend well. Like, everyone talks about how great bringing the ball out, he's got a lovely left foot. I've never seen him... Like, fine, he can do a slide tackle. Like, a lot of people can do a good last-minute slide tackle, but I've never seen him, like, defend well. Am I wrong? Am I being harsh after just this one moment? Might be a little bit. I mean, I think he's uber-aggressive. I think any opponent he's always spoken about his stature but anyone he plays against will say they're in for a tough afternoon against him I think he reads the game broadly speaking quite well and I think he's also he's spoken about other players in Manchester United over recent seasons at Manchester United who are playing in a team that's pretty dysfunctional and there's a lot of space around them so I think he's a good player but there were huge gaps around them and you said Mano, Mano's good in isolation but again there's huge spaces around him and they seem incapable of pressing or if they're trying to do it it's woefully incoherent and then when they're not, they're not really sitting in a kind of mid or low block it's just a bit chaotic really I mean it feels almost deja vu the conversation because I mentioned about...

57:29It's always deja vu with Manchester United isn't it? The midfield I'm talking about Mino and Tielemans And their stature But are they fit enough? Like I always Always loathe to question Sort of effort And things like that But maybe it's the type of player That they are But I just The Tielemans comments In preseason I can't remember When he was speaking to Maybe it was a Rio Ferdinand Or a podcast And just said Preseason has been quite good It's not been that intense We've been doing a lot of ball work And you just think You know You just think about the culture Of the Premier League And what the Premier League is And it's the intensity of it And look It's no surprise that Carlos Beliba comes on and makes a big difference and suddenly United feel different.

58:05Big pressure on the lad though, isn't there? I mean, Charlotte Duncan's writing a preview to the Atletico Madrid game around the idea that, right, okay, Carlos, no pressure, but we need, you know, aggression, control, legs, energy. This is not the most reliable player. The Houston midfielder last season who really struggled for confidence. It was a lot of part of it. He had his injuries and he was struggling at Brighton to just take it off at half time a few times. He's not a panacea. You could question the profile of those players in isolation but it's about the structure it's about how much space is around them and again we're getting back to the 10 Hag days where you just look at and sometimes you're like wow that moment where Archie Gray ran 60 yards down the right and then cut inside just a huge swathe of space who does that structure fall to in terms of blame and responsibility is Carrick yeah because it's happened over a series of games now I was at the Fulham game and again you're watching them thinking what are they trying to do here when they don't have the ball I don't I don't know I don't have the answer and like that's a problem In terms of when they have the ball as well they're quite damning that they've been against 10 men now twice in the Manchester derby for a long period and lost that game and now against Tottenham and conceded a late goal when winning the game that is obviously what is that down to?

59:19Is that tactics? Is that player reaction on the pitch? Control? They've got a lot of experienced players on the pitch there Yeah if the game had gone on for another 10 minutes I think Tottenham would have won it to be honest and that's 11 v 10 for Man United So, I mean, Telemund is now sort of joining that lengthy list of Man Utd players where they were brilliant somewhere else and they go to Man Utd and you think, is that the same player? We all thought he would be a great signing. Yeah. Everyone was like, experience, Premier League experience. Yeah, leadership. He played in a team that packed the middle of the pitch.

59:47He was sometimes like the fulcrum at the bottom at the base of midfield and sometimes he was the number 10. But Villa played through the middle of the pitch. And you don't have the ball. You have a clear structure. he's gone into a team again that looked just wide open Tom? I agree with Greg, it comes down I think to Carrick, I think when you have those game situations where you are in the City match and in this match it's on the manager to set the structure and the formation correctly it looks like a team that is sort of playing on the hoof that moment where Grey is running through I think it was Maynou and Tielemans are about 15 yards behind the ball in front of the ball and they're trying to it looks like a team that's sort of making it up as it goes along.

1:00:29I'm not sure they're really quite sure what they should be doing at any moment in any match. And that kind of comes down to the management. So to finish then, to tie in a couple of themes and the theme of managers under pressure, I just wanted to ask mainly about Michael Carrick, but I wanted to bring in some of the other names we've mentioned. I'm going to ask Michael Carrick, Arbeloa, Rosa, De Zerbe. How many of them will still be in their job at the end of the next international break in five weeks' time? And if so, who? Gregor? I mean right now the only one I think won't be is Arbaloa I mean Pete was right they've shown signs of improvement and you know he's shown signs that he's willing to adapt to the reality of the Premier League from that opening game against Chelsea which was just wild and wide open but I think he's also there's also been kind of rumblings of discontent behind the scenes the fans are kind of are already he's already losing them a little bit I think I think he's going to have to turn it around pretty quickly Pete?

1:01:26Yeah, same. I think the other three will be okay. So we all think Carrick will be okay. Tom, I'll let you come in. United have got themselves in a right hole in terms of keeping managers and changing them, giving a contract at the end of last season. Carrick got them into the Champions League and I think they'll want to keep him. Says reluctantly. Yeah. Tom, final word from you on those four? I sort of think you look at the clubs, for which hierarchies does it matter the most? and I think for Fulham, yes, they have spent some money backing Arboleda, but I think it can change, right? I feel like with Spurs, with Zerbe and also with United, with Carrick, you look at the people who have put them in charge, their reputations are very much on the line on those managers, which doesn't mean that further down the line, if you ask me do I think Carrick will still be the manager at the end of the season, I'd be less sure, but I think they'll give him more time.

1:02:16Really interesting. We'll see what the next coming weeks hold, but we'll leave it there for now. Peter Rutzler, Tom Ornutt and Gregor Robertson, Thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back with an EFL Extra show tomorrow and we'll be back with the regular show on Thursday. We'll see you then.

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