Do England need a £5m manager and your favourite cult hero?

0:03Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times. So, what makes a footballing cult hero? Is it skill, a wonder goal, a weird celebration or something else entirely? And can the most talented players be cult heroes? On today's show, we'll be discussing this topic after an interview with a man who has become a football league legend. And we'll be nominating our own cult heroes too. We'll also discuss former big-name players in management as Robbie Savage excels at Forest Green, Jack Wilshire takes over at Luton and Steven Gerrard turns down Rangers. We'll also discuss the latest international action and debate what Thomas Tuchel's ruthless selection might mean for England's star names.

0:44I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd and the former Scotland under-21 international superstar turned football writer Gregor Robertson is here. It's International Break Week. We need to give him his Scotland credentials, don't we Alison? I love him being Scottish. Yeah, that's the only thing we like about him, isn't it? What? Makes him a bit edgy and alternative. I'm taking a strange turn. Scottish drawl on the pod. How are you, Gregor? I'm OK. Yeah. Two wins for Scotland. We were just discussing planning this show. I said, do you know what, Gregor?

1:20I'm going to start with Scotland for once. Two big wins, and then you promptly tell me how crap they've been. It's a really bizarre state of affairs, yeah. We've got 10 points. We're tied at the top of the group, which is a positive state of affairs, but we've been absolutely woeful in the last couple of games. somehow nicked the points and for like a nation that's so used to being valiant losers to find ourselves being lucky and you know on the verge of qualification for the World Cup it's quite an odd You've not ended up being like a good team who finds a way to win have you? No We're definitely not that if you saw the first hour against Greece we definitely were in that But then you came back and won 3-1 We did yeah That's exciting isn't it?

2:00We did yeah and I think the commentator kind of summed up he said it's like the most extraordinary case of pickpocketry in Scottish football history with a perfect link. Pickpocketry is a lovely turn of phrase, isn't it? But I mean, what is happening here? Is this Steve Clarke, you know, gone on too long? No. What is it you're getting at then? He doesn't know. I mean, his interview yesterday after the Belarus game was fascinating, really. He was saying he just said it was his 72nd game which meant he surpassed Craig Brown. And he said it's probably the most disappointing he's been in all 72 games really and again they just won for the second time in the space for a few days which has it's all but it has secured a World Cup playoff spot at the very least and we have basically a head to head against Denmark if we get a draw against Greece then it sets up whatever happens we've got a head to head against Denmark at home to win the group a head to head against Denmark that's Robertson v Rudd basically as every loyal listeners to the game podcast know Alison is basically a Denmark fan but Clark was asked so obviously the next question is why and he's like don't know head scratcher so he's like I'll go away and look at it but we need to be better what do you think the reason was I don't know I feel like we're kind of ageing collectively like Andy Robertson you see him doing things now that he never did in the past he kind of got away with one with a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a off for a foul in the build up and then he just dangled a foot in for Belarus' goal Kieran Tierney that used to be like the best left side of a team in I'd say in the world

3:47Kieran Tierney's gone back to Celtic and he's still kind of struggling with injuries and getting up to be the same sort of player he was so that no longer looks like a strength can't quite alight on the right midfield combination and we're also playing with Grant Hanley who's kind of ageing as well at centre half Gee Adams has scored some goals he took his finish really well but that's always been an issue McTominay we're not getting the best out of him as well considering he was someone who was nominated for the Ballon d 'Or Ballon d 'Or nominated Scott McTominay just like Clark said it I need to find a way of making this look like a more cohesive team and I think that really summed it up and you say the fans were booing well there were boos after the first half against Greece and then it was like how did we win that game at the end of it and then there were a kind of smattering of boos Michael Grant wrote about it in his report there was like you get a few faint boos at the end of the win against Belarus before the music went on and that's really unusual at Hampden too like the you know the Tartan army get behind the team pretty much no matter what and so it's slightly unusual is there not a case that this is the biggest compliment that you could possibly play Steve Clark?

5:01That there's that booze after Scotland win a game? That's a strange way of looking at it. That's definitely a repackaging. Yeah, but I'm just trying to think, this is bonkers. Or it could be really astute fandom because they saw what happened when Scotland were at their last tournament and it was embarrassing and they can see it happening again. So what they're thinking is, heck, bloody hell, we might qualify for the World Cup, but when we get there, we're going to be shite. Well, yeah, we're looking at it thinking it's in our hands, but we don't have much faith that we're going to grasp it. The expletives really progressed then, Alison.

5:36They went from heck to bloody hell to shite in a big succession. You really remembered you're on a modern football podcast. I mean, absolutely fascinating. Listeners, if you want to get in touch with me, if you're a Scotland fan, if you've got answers to any of Gregor or Steve Clarke's questions, then do send them in tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Oh, we've got an email from Katy Perry. Yeah, there you go. What? Steve Clarke doesn't know who she is. I think that's at the root of it all. Very good. I see. I was like, what? We actually got an email from David Perry? I must have missed this. That's absolutely massive.

6:09I didn't realise she listened to the show. But if you want to know what Michael Grant, our Scottish football correspondent, thinks of Scotland's situation, he'll be writing the football newsletter in your inboxes today. He writes a very good newsletter, that man. Does he? Yeah. They're my favourite. It's a very good everything, actually. Oh, well, lovely. I hope he's listening to this. There you go, Michael. Little confidence booster for you there, even if we were worried about Scotland's performance, it's on the pitch. Some big games tonight in the World Cup qualifiers as well. Northern Ireland at home against Germany and Wales at home against Belgium as well.

6:39England have the massive game, the big task. Latvia tomorrow night on Tuesday. Hamza, Khalid Luna and Johnny Northcroft will be there. It's obviously quite a while since Thursday's game against Wales, that friendly, where they blew them away in the opening 20 minutes to win 3-0. Before we talk about that and some of the issues on the pitch, Alison Rudd. This is now the start of the Alison Rudd features section for the game podcast where all the topics that we've got to come are basically inspired by things you've written on the Times website. But you've got a quite radical plan for the future of international management.

7:12Get rid of managers.

7:17Well, specifically, I would start specifically with Thomas Tuchel and maybe work my way around the world after that. on a case-by-case basis. But if you step back from it, it is actually, if you step back from it, it is actually, I think, utterly ludicrous that we're paying a German£5 million a year to decide who plays in games that England really should win. I mean, the qualification process should be automatic, given the wealth of resources and the actual wealth at our disposal. So what do you get for that? you get, we're going to come on to cult players, what you get is cult managers, you get cult of personality, you get situations where we hang on every word Thomas Tuchel says and he feels obliged to say more and more radical stuff as opposed to just cracking on with management.

8:12I think it'd be much better to save that£5 million, invest it in coaching of English people at St. George's Park and there are coaches there at St George's Park now who are more than capable of deciding who to pick for each individual game and then you get through because by default you have to if you've got the quality of players that England have and then you appoint an English manager who's been working all season so he's sharp and he's on top of management. He hasn't been sat in the stands for game after game with this ridiculous impassive expression. You don't even see them making notes when they're at the London Stadium or Stamford Bridge or Old Trafford.

8:57They'll do nothing. They're just watching one player who's probably not even playing. So they're watching one potential England player warming up and they're getting five million quid a year for that. Getting some great hospitality into the bargain as well. So they should be paying us. But who would be in charge so far? So you qualify. Are you talking about Lee Carsley being in charge or someone like that? anyone who qualifies as backroom staff. So it could be Ashley Cole. It could be somebody who's employed by England already, on a salary already. You don't need to have someone from abroad to come in on five million a year to sit at Stamford Bridge looking impassively at players not playing as you thought they might be eligible.

9:37Is it just about the notes thing? Because I feel like that's really got you, got you wick, the kind of not making notes thing, showing a bit more hard work. It does annoy me every time the camera pan. I mean, we're there. When they're looking at the phones, you've come all this way and you're like having other fans that are like scrolling or whatever because you're bored at the game. Yeah, or you're making polite small talk to some director's wife on your left or right who you don't know. I'd be making notes on their phone. Anyway, I'm heading off here. No, but we are paid. We are paid rather less than£5 million a year to go to football.

10:06I accept it's a privilege to be paid to be a football match, but you guarantee if the camera pans to me, I will be typing furiously throughout that 90 minutes. Listeners, if you want me to send a photographer to Alison Rudd's next game and train a camera on her for the entire 90 minutes just to find the moment where she accepts a cup of tea from someone. No, no time for tea. Anyway, back to your radical idea. So you, as a nation, it's ridiculous to even assume we're in danger of not qualifying. If you look at the groups we've been in, we qualify for the World Cup And then I agree you need a manager for the tournament, but you appoint someone with the skills at that moment to inspire through the group and then the knockout games on the big stage.

10:59And you appoint someone who has been actually managing properly for the previous season, who is, and this is a separate argument, but I do think it's cheating if they're not English. So someone like, for example, I'm not saying it should be, but someone like Frank Lampard or Eddie Howe, who've been having an amazing season. Really busy. I mean, really busy doing sharp end management. The things you have to do every minute of every day. It's a really tough job. But they'll be finely honed and ready. And they'll have seen more of the key personnel and seen them in a different way than someone paid£5 million to sit in the stands watching them.

11:37and they'll know how to make it work and they'll have respect and there'll be an energy boost. Wow, we're at the World Cup. Oh, hi, Eddie. Hi, Frank. And they have to be impressed with you. You have to lift it and you save five million quid and you give Eddie or Frank or whoever a bonus if they win it. You pay their expenses. A box of wine and some celebrations. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I genuinely found myself going, I don't mind it, actually. But two things. What about then... So does Ashley Cole, the figure that you imagine, do they stay part of the World Cup team when they then go to the World Cup?

12:15Of course, of course. They can have as many staff as they want. But what about the idea then that Frank Lampard or Eddie Howe, these people... What do they then know of the choice between Nani Madueke and Morgan Rodgers and people who they've only witnessed as opposition or on footage? Well, you learn a hell of a lot. You wouldn't have done training with them for the Latvia game or the Wales game. You learn a hell of a lot if you're playing against them and you won't tell me that anyone who's active in management now isn't watching who's out there, who's English. They're probably being sort of subconsciously England managers anyway, always looking at who's doing well, who's English.

12:51Who would be in my starting 11? I've got a way in which I think to take your idea, if you're going to buy into it, but Gregor, I want to take your kind of hard-nosed former professional view on it first. I mean, there's logic in the fact that... We love it, she's winning us over In the fact that Alison's right, the qualification process is almost, it's getting to farcical stages You know, there was a story Well you just said Scotland are crap and they're going to qualify For England, for the best teams So yeah, I mean it is a bit odd that he's been paid that sum of money to basically watch lots of football and then turn up to beat Andorra and whatnot But all the things about getting to know the players and getting to know clearly getting to know someone like Jude Bellingham and seeing what his sort of impact on the environment might be or might not be to see who are kind of big eagles who are going to be team players the staff who are there can do that you don't need to be this higher power to do that you might have a different view to the staff the staff might say Jude Bellingham's England's best player doesn't matter you may have a different view on that so like he's the manager it almost has to justify his salary by coming up with these wacky ideas there is I'd say the slight issue that Tuchel is almost disproving your point with his selections recently and the fact that on Thursday's show we were talking about oh my god the star players that he's left out will any of these superstars make it to the World Cup squad that's precisely because he's picked the teams he's picked for a big win in Serbia and then a really great 20 minutes against Wales.

14:33Does that not... Because then how would Eddie Howe or Frank Lampard do... No, I would call that overthinking it. I would call that I've got five million quid. I have to... There's a lot of this rage on their salary, doesn't it? I have to look like I'm doing something. And so you do slightly perverse selection policy. He's basically... He has basically had like an 18-month learning period or whatever it is. Was it even that long? Not even. He's not had that yet, no. So that's true He's using this time to find out as much as he can About the players on many different levels So there has to be some value in that You can't just pitch up at the World Cup And think you know the players Inside out I'm starting to wonder Whether there's a case that the result Wouldn't necessarily be any different If you had a gun to hire manager Although what happened when Lee Carsley Got the job Listen it's interesting I think the way to do it Alison He tried experimental things and it slightly went wrong The way to do it Alison in the modern age of content is king is to turn it into a reality TV show Let's be honest you get one month out from the World Cup and there's one night where you pick the manager and you have to present your case and it's like X Factor and then the next week he picks his squad live and all the players are sat in the audience and he calls them up on stage one by one that's the way to do it I guarantee that's how England win the World Cup Also you've seen some good things in the last couple of games.

15:58That's why I'm saying I like Alison's idea as a maverick left field shout. Who's to say those good things wouldn't have happened without him? We've also seen bad things. We've also seen them being incredibly boring. What bad things have we seen, do you think? Well, I still don't see the sort of passion you get from other nations with England. From the players? I still see a collection of individuals who aren't entirely sure what they're supposed to be doing. But what about, you've not had your say on the conversation that I was going to come on to that I think that, as I say, slightly goes against your argument because Tuchel has created this discussion around the star players being left out.

16:37Do you not find that quite interesting and refreshing as someone who did so many of those daily podcasts during the big tournaments and questioned Gareth Southgate for not getting the best out of the, not making a team look like a team? Yeah, but it's, okay, I agree. I absolutely agree. One of the biggest problems with England since they did win the World Cup has been a loss of national identity and when you're picked for England what are you entering into? It's not like you know the style or the personality of the country. There's not a thing you can grasp hold of what are England in terms of their tactical and emotional application to the game.

17:19It's nebulous. You just don't know what it is because we're a big nation, we have hang-ups about our history and don't feel that sort of nationalistic pride. I agree there are problems with that, but I don't see that it necessarily follows that it needs one man who isn't even English to engender that. But do you not think... I don't think it's about... I don't think you solve it by dropping good players necessarily. that's almost like the easy way out. You might call it brave, but I would say it's the easy way out. The clever thing to do would be to identify, if you're in the position of picking the team, what makes the relationships on the pitch and in the dressing room and, you know, chat to these people and make them understand what you want from them, don't drop them.

18:14I don't think you learn from being dropped. If you're dropped because you're told you're repulsive or because you just don't like your attitude or your aura's a bit negative or you're too big for your boots. I mean, you can't do a lot with that as an individual. You need to be coached and talked to about how to integrate better. It's about discussion and learning. I don't think you learn by being dropped. It's just a headline grabber. Yeah, I would also say, I'm sure Thomas Tuchel, if he was here, would want to stress that Cole Palmer's been injured, Phil Foden's been injured, Jude Bellingham has been injured.

18:47so a lot of these decisions that are now coming to a head in the future will be when these players are fit but do you not think there is a case that the identity point on the pitch and Gregor talked about it a lot during the Euros he has at least addressed that he's confronted that of going pace out wide one of you one of these great players and there's a load of them but only one of you can play there Elliot Anderson in midfield that looks like a plan on the pitch and like let's try and replicate what the Premier League is about and it didn't work for a long time but it started to I mean that first first half really against Wales they were like they were completely suffocating them and no Wales aren't Wales Wales under Bellamy they've got recognisable Premier League like Premier League players and whatnot but still they're a level below but but they suffocated them and there was a lot of energy and sort of a lot of good things without the ball which I don't think there has been for a long time which might be an issue in 90 degree heat in the World Cup which we might be getting games in the middle of the night of course possibly possibly Possibly.

19:46But going back to that point, Alison, about, so you don't think we're heading towards a case of where England fans and the media are going to start accepting. That's what it feels like to me. A lot of my friends who I judge it against, they're not clamouring anymore or going, oh, we've got to get X in, we've got to get Y in. You think that's what, you don't think that's what Tuchel has done. Or actually you think he has done that, but actually it's a cop-out rather than a tactical revolution. Well, as you've pointed out, so far the players left out, it's injury related. It's not like a cull of all great players.

20:18And the Jude Bellingham issue, I mean, it's sort of becoming a bit scapegoaty to me. It seems to me that Tuchel is saying, look at me, I'm a very strong minded coach. I'm all powerful. I can drop, if someone tells me that player there, he's the best we've got. He's the best in the world that's English. I'm big enough to say I don't agree with that. Or that's not enough for me. it's posturing He's not said that he was asked the question explicitly in the press conference saying you need your best players if you're going to win a World Cup he said, do you? How do you approve of that? and that's actually a pretty intelligent answer or reply, no one knows that you need the best team, the best unit on the pitch and clearly more often than not that's going to include your best players No, but there's another question after that isn't it obviously Obviously, logically, what you need is your best players who are managed properly.

21:17It's a cop-out to say, I think it's hard to integrate this big name from Real Madrid. I think that's a difficult thing to do, especially when he was out injured and we'd played well without him. The clever bit of management is to say, right, he's now available, want him part of the group, want him there, want to use him. But I think there is probably a world in which we come around to this and even with this same system, Jude Bellingham drops into that number 10 role. Do you think in that world, where we then maybe have Cole Palmer, Phil Foden and Morgan Rodgers on the bench, or maybe just two or three of them, would you accept that as a compromise between what you're talking about and what me and Greg are outlining?

21:56It's in the... If all the players you've just listed are there and they're happy to be there, that's the key. Well, I suspect Tuchel's trying to avoid that moodiness around the people who are... You think they should be first choice and they don't appear to be first choice. He doesn't want that moodiness. He wants to engender an environment where if you play well for him and you do what he's asked you to do and you get the result, there's no way you're going to be dropped just because someone with more Instagram followers is going to take your place. But surely there is very little you can do as an international coach.

22:35You don't have the players for very long. You can't really coach them to do anything much at all. But what you can do is convey a system where you somehow integrate the better players. And if it's a question of rotation, obviously they can't all start. You can't have 20 number 10s. You can't all start. So you can't trade it. Yeah, well, but you can't. It's about, that's the clever bit of management. The easy bit of management, I would argue, is to make a headline saying that, do you need your best players? Well, there you go. But you do, but it's important that you're the one that makes it work.

23:13Yeah, England fans. More debate. Greg, we're already there. It's only October. We've got all of this to come, mate, between now and the World Cup. How excited Greg are. We didn't even mention the way he called out the fans as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that was a bit like, he's right about Wembley. Most fair-minded fans would agree. I think he was more calling out Wembley, though, which, as you've just said, having been there as a fan, I agree with you agree with the Football Supporters Association then came out afterwards and said we agree with him I don't think of various controversial statements that he's made when framed as Tuchel has pop at England fans that sounds quite controversial but I think in the context of Wembley I don't think it was particularly outrageous as it proved afterwards but there we go England fans if you've got views on anything that we've said about England in the first half of the show ahead of that game with Latvia we'll be picking it up on Thursday I'm sure so do get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk the big game to come on Tuesday night we've got loads more to discuss in the second half of the show and we'll be looking at our favourite footballing cult heroes but time for a little quiz question courtesy of Bill Edgar when Sweden's Latan Ibrahimovic became the first player to score four goals in a match against England in 2012 which Everton player who could be called a cult hero was making his England debut at the age of 31 find out after the break

24:48Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Alison Rudd and the quiz master, Gregor Robertson, with me. I had, Alison, I had four options. Bill Edgar's quiz every week always gives readers four options. Gregor didn't even need the four options because the answer was? Leon Osman. Leon Osman Oh he's a savant isn't he Leon Osman Had all the four options there And he got it straight away Listeners so impressive Almost as impressive as his footballing career Now Listeners we enter part two The Alison Rudd interviewee section Two topics of conversation Both inspired by brilliant interviews by Alison That you can read on the Times website now The first one of which is on the website Right now Right now Go and look right now With Robbie Savage The Forest Green manager Making quite a name for himself tell us all about it Alison well first of all wow Forest Green Rovers pitches are as good as you'll see anywhere in the land even in the Premier League they are gorgeous and they've got plans to build an eco park where they're currently training of the new wooden stadium did you see the little eco mobot thing that goes and cuts the pitch it wasn't doing that there it's very beautiful isn't it Very beautiful.

26:06Anyway, and they have got Robbie Savage in charge, who is actually, if I'm completely honest, and I said to him at one point, if I owned a club, you'd be the manager I'd want because he does what I argue managers should do. You're a flirt, aren't you, Alison? That is outrageous. How do you think I get good interviews? That is outrageous, isn't it? Go on, explain more why you would want Robbie Savage in charge. Because he, well, his priority is entertainment, first of all. It's, you know, why people turn up. they want to be entertained. He wants to be entertaining. But he will change, you know, depending on who he's got fit, who the opposition are.

26:43He'll change formation four times within one match. He's got a philosophy which is to be on the front foot and entertaining, but it's not so embedded that he won't suddenly go three at the back and retreat if circumstances dictate that. or he'll judge a game and see that they're losing 1-0 and decide that if he just throws on more attackers and encourages them to be brave, then he feels that they can do it. And so far this season, apart from once, he's only had one defeat. It's been a philosophy of style that's been successful. And also, I think he said himself, he thinks he knows people want him to fail.

27:31he knows he's a Marmite figure there are some people are irritated by him Is he saying that based on just you know the kind of persona that he presented as a player you know where he was the kind of wind up merchant and all that stuff Yeah he was a wind up merchant and very aggressive on the pitch which is great if he's yours but not so great if he's the opposition player his persona on when he does his media and I think sometimes he comes across and he's quite self-deprecating so he comes across as you know I mean he's not but he comes across as maybe he's not the brightest button. But actually, when he's talking to you about football and his life and tactics, whilst he's still self-deprecating, he's learned a lot and he conveys it with absolute passion and love for the game.

28:18And he knows a lot and he's fearless. He's as fearless in management as he was as a player. And he said several times, I'm not scared of the sack. I know that's what comes. So I'm doing the utmost. not to get the sack and to bring success. And then I saw him interacting with his players and they do take the mickey out of him. But you can tell that line is there, that they'll still, you know, do what he says and want to impress him and so on. He's just absolute. It was early on Saturday morning and it was like, you know, being in a room with 20 puppies. He has so much energy. He is Mr. Energy. Enthusiasm.

29:00love for it absolutely loves it and all that against the backdrop of he's living in a flat on his own his wife and one of his sons is living in Manchester his other son plays for Reading he he said he hadn't seen his family for 10 days and he wouldn't see them for another 10 days and you think well that what sort of life is that really but he loves it so much he's prepared to make that sacrifice it's a fascinating route into management as well isn't it Gregor because he kind of started out as a pundit and was appearing in quite a lot of places on TV and on radio and stuff. And then he got involved with Macclesfield, the formation of Macclesfield FC, who obviously kind of the Phoenix club after Macclesfield Town.

29:38As an owner. As an owner. And it was a good couple of years before he then was appointed head coach at Macclesfield, got them promotion through the lower rungs of the National League and is now in the National League at Forest Green. That really taps into Alison's idea about 20 puppies and really just loving it. Because, I mean, as much as we admire managers who take a step down to try it out, this is a guy who played at the very top starting at the very bottom The Macclesfield thing he still didn't really think he was going to try and make a career as a manager, it was like he's the owner he gave it to Danny Whitaker who was like a club legend at the start and then took the job I think initially on a temporary basis and then as you say won promotion last season, he's obviously really enjoyed it and I think he turns 51 next week or something so it's an odd time to do that but it also kind of I've been quite interested in Robbie Savage since he retired because you're right no one liked him let's be honest no one really liked him as a player if he was on your team yeah maybe but he kind of rubbed people up the wrong way he seemed a bit arrogant and stuff but you see in his interviews just the way I think a bit more vulnerability he's more open about even saying he knows that people want him to fail and I think probably it ties into how difficult it is for former players to find something that replaces the buzz and the sort of the competition and all these things that football provides being a pundit in a studio is nice because you're around the game and you probably paid quite well and he goes to watch Champions League games or whatever it is but then when he went down and managed even a team in the Northern Premier League, whatever it was, with Lachlesfield you got a buzz for being involved in the game so I yeah fair play to him for just for having a go at 50 it's a very competitive setting that he's in as well Alison with Forrest Green you know there's a lot of big clubs that me and Greg often refer to on the Football League podcast you know you've got Rochdale top on 30 points then Forrest Green on 29 you know these are established clubs that have been in the Football League for a long time Carlisle behind them with Mark Hughes in third that's on Saturday they're placing each other then Scunthorpe in fourth I mean Greg I've said it before oh, we need to start doing a non-league podcast as well.

31:56But I mean, this is a really, it is a pressurised environment. You're talking about that idea of failure. This is not just, oh, I'll go down to the National League and it'll all be nice and easy. Oh my God, no, there's no way. That's a really good point because you walk into his office and there are as many whiteboards with little figures on them as you get in a Premier League manager's office. Right. The entire vibe, honestly, I could have been talking to someone managing in the Premier League in terms of how seriously... Preparation and all that. It's taken. The vibe of... To get to his office, you have to walk through the canteen, two gyms, and then you get to his office at the end.

32:36The atmosphere was the same as going into a Premier League club. Right, well... It's not, oh, jokey, jokey, we're only in some poxy division. It felt elite. It felt serious. And the way Robbie spoke, you could have taken out the name Forest Green and inserted any of the mid-table Premier League clubs and had a similar type of approach to it it feels highly competitive They've had an interest in the list of managers recently, Forest Green he started off since 2021 they had Rob Edwards who obviously came up to the Premier League with Luton, he's now top of the league with Middlesbrough got him promoted so those kind of managers who Ian Burchnell was another one who were like kind of bright young things but then he swung to Duncan Ferguson or to Troy Deeney and now to Savage so Dale Vince is a funny, the owner is a kind of funny recent track record he likes publicity so as much as this is great, it's great to see Robbie Savage relishing a job in management and trying to make a career of it, I'm sure his sort of celebrity Steele has probably had something to do with his appointment.

33:51He talked about the staff, the staffing, the analytics. You know, they've got a director of football. Yeah, no, they're set up properly. We could be talking about Bournemouth or Brighton or somewhere. Yeah. I mean, and it also makes it on the same day as we're recording, Jack Wilshere has just been announced as Luton Town manager. And Gregor, again, different league, but another very difficult job. A club that were only in the Premier League very recently. Matt Bloomfield sacked after nine months in League One, struggling this season. This is another guy who, you know, was probably almost certainly considered a better player than Savage, but still played at the same level, very high level, has worked his way through coaching careers.

34:28He was interim charge of Norwich for a couple of games at the end of last season. Yeah, he was part of their backroom staff and then got the job. And part of their backroom staff, but has now got a very difficult job. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's difficult for these guys because they, you know, they've got such a stellar playing career, playing background. he coached for a long time in Arsenal's academy and really impressed people I think he obviously had to retire early and maybe get a bit of a leg up because you're Jack Wilshere but he really impressed people in their academy took that next step to be part of Norwich's backroom staff under quite a well thought of manager and then got a brief opportunity but it was unlikely he was ever going to get the job there so where do you go he's not like Frank Lampard Steven Gerrard status but where's your first opportunity going to come Luton's a good club but they've had a really difficult time back to back relegations like clearly they expect to be getting promoted this season and it's a league that he doesn't know it's a level he doesn't know it's the same with Savage for these guys to kind of take their first steps those few rungs down the ladder it's brave but it is also interesting in light of You mentioned Rob Edwards doing well at the top of the championship.

35:45Frank Lampard, of course, doing incredibly well at the top of the championship. Someone who's managed at the highest level, but has largely been dismissed. And as we've discussed on a recent EFL show, Gregor, everyone's looking at Coventry this season going, oh, it turns out Frank Lampard might actually be quite a good manager, maybe a really good manager. Steven Gerrard recently turning down Rangers, we believe, a chance to go back there in light of Alison's idea about English managers for the English team and obviously British managers in Robbie Savage's case. but this is fascinating isn't it these managers of such playing notoriety going down the pyramid and finding different levels of success but having to go down there meanwhile on this show we're fantasising about Oliver Glasner here and Antonio Iola there and all these wonderful managers it's a fascinating contrast isn't it they're finding that the Premier League is the most competitive in the world and opportunities there they've actually had when you talk about Lampard and Gerrard that was a whole kind of conversation a few years back that they're getting doors open for them that no one else would perhaps but they're still going like Lampard Lampard was not you know he wasn't even Flavour of the Month in Coventry when he got that job replaced Mark Robbins but he's kind of changed a lot of minds but you know a lot of it is the scrutiny on them is remarkable a lot of it is about kind of perseverance they're learning they were given opportunity to learn at like the very highest level and there's a whole conversation about where their skill set, their background and experience will be best utilised.

37:17Does Jack Wilshere know or expect too much? Will he expect too much from players in League One? Possibly. But you've got, you know, that's about the sort of emotional intelligence too to recognise that. Well, that's where it's an advantage, I think, if you're a player who's been famous, as Robbie Savage has, more for his attitude than his skill, which is maybe slightly unfair. You can't be a bad player and play for the clubs he played for. but all he's going to do is go into a club, lower down the pyramid and demand effort and enthusiasm and application. And that's fine, I think. The problem comes when you've got someone who is incredibly gifted technically as a player and expects to see that at Luton or Forest Green and so on.

38:02But I don't think it matters that Robbie Savage has been played at a high level and gone down the ranks because what he is famous for are qualities that apply whether you're doing the under-14s in your local club or Manchester United. Yeah, very interesting. It's a brilliant interview. Go and read it on the Times website now. Alison Rudd meets Robbie Savage. Time for interview number two from Alison Rudd. Greg, are you going to pull your finger out and do any work anytime soon, by the way? Not written anything in ages. Anyway, in Saturday's paper of the Times on Friday on the website, we had an interview that was headlined the footballing unk with a walking stick becoming a cult hero, ladies and gentlemen, Albert Odomar.

38:43Alison, tell us all about it. Well, this is thanks to you, Tom Clark, who noted that he'd become a bit of a cult figure for celebrating in front of the fans. Well, his whole career, Albert Odomar, has been into his celebrations, right? So if you go back in time, you'll see he's a character. But he took it to a new level when, because he's now 37 and he claims, you know, he gets called granddad when he walks into a room or uncle or something. So he thought, well, I'll take that onto the pitch. And he'd started doing an old man walk or pretending to have a Zimmer frame after he scored with Walsall.

39:22So he did the combo of old man, pretend old man with walking stick and old man with Zimmer frame after he scored last month. And then when they did their lap of appreciation, an elderly gentleman as he put it handed him his walking his actual walking stick so he continued the lap of appreciation with the walking stick exaggerating being in pain and having a bad back and so on and he said about 16 times I gave him his stick back I didn't nick the stick so I went up to Walsall to meet him and took a walking stick with me and it's the first time I've ever given a present to a player that was a walking stick.

40:05And he very kindly reenacted it for a video for us. He was great fun. I mean, he's a lovely, lovely player. When you watch someone do a wacky celebration, you sort of assume they're going to be nice. It doesn't necessarily follow, does it? But he was. He was very patient with us making him do. We made him do a score, walk with a walking stick, and then go into a headstand and smile into the camera while upside down. What a guy. What a guy. That is big top lad energy, isn't it? Also, Alison, I very much saw some outtakes in which you're introducing him and you just fall apart laughing every single time.

40:41I really wanted to try and include these outtakes. It's absolutely brilliant. Greg, do you play against him? I did. He started at Barnett and he was good. Barnett always had, they had Jason Punching as well in that kind of era. Yeah, he's got a good... They always found wingers from non-league and stuff who went on to bigger and better things. Yeah, very quick. Didn't always enjoy playing against him. No, I'm sure he'd probably beat you on the outside. But Alistair's right. He's kind of one of those guys who lights up. Even on the pitch, he's got that kind of persona and aura. I think there was a brilliant goal he scored.

41:14Was it in the playoffs last season or towards the end of the season? When he had the ball in the corner flag and everyone's trying to kill time, just kill time, just leave it, leave it. And you could tell it's just a little devil in his thought. Do you know what? Watch this. And he beats three men and then... Does he score? Does he pass it to someone for a tap-in in the box? I can't quite remember. absolutely brilliant just the kind of thing that only if you have that kind of character and personality you're able to do another brilliant interview and he's good at art he's good at art yes he's a decorator so he can he can hang your wallpaper for you if you want but he can also his kids tell him what characters they want painted on his football boots so he paints most recently had the Incredibles characters he etched them out and then filled them in what a top lad Honestly, fantastic.

42:02I'm looking forward to interview part two, Greg, where Albert Odomar goes and paints Alison Rudd's kitchen. But it did mean that we can have a debate now. Albert Odomar labelled a cult hero and definitely becoming that within the Football League after a brilliant career. But I thought it would be a nice way to end this show to talk about our favourite cult heroes and the idea of a cult hero first, I think. Maybe it's worth setting the parameters because I was obviously having a chat with a load of my pals or football obsessives. And one of the first questions I asked was, Can you be a really, really good player and still a cult hero?

42:32Of course. You think you can? Because one of them that popped into my mind as a kind of general everyman cult hero would be Gianfranco Zola. A fantastic player, a scorer of outstandingly good goals, a Chelsea legend, but for everyone to like him, does that make you a cult hero, for example? Can a really, really great player be a cult hero? It's a difficult one. I think you strayed into difficult area there. I think it's just standing out for something. you could stand out for mediocrity yes so I think that is a big part of footballing cult heroes particularly in sport particularly in Britain a lot of the cult hero suggestions that we have from listeners that I'm going to come on to in a minute are a bit crap at that level or within their team that's how they were seen anyway or they kept plugging away they weren't even always in the team plugging away you know they just got their head down and they were uber professional and when they were called upon they were always reliable so are we going to come to a definition of what a cult hero is i would suggest a cult hero has to provoke more adoration and love than you might think at first glance is deserved so you would then say jean franco zola cannot be a cult because he gets the love he gets is completely deserved it's not it's not quirky or wacky in any way that you would adore him okay well so let's let's do let's list a few of our footballing cult heroes i'm going to start with two that i think kind of fit into two different categories.

43:53One, Tony Hibbert at Everton, which I checked with an Everton sporting pal of mine, that brilliant moment of when he's not unveiled, I think he signs his contracts with Wayne Rooney. Him and Wayne Rooney stood side by side, two very different careers they go on to. And my Everton sporting pal was like, yep, definitely qualifies as a cult hero. Over 200 games, never scored, plugged away, as Gregor said, kept going, definition of a cult hero. Well, to extend that definition though, are there sufficient numbers of Everton fans who would have him as their favourite player above Wayne Rooney Don't know whether they have a favourite player I don't think favourite comes into the cult hero debate and another reason for not having a favourite is another suggestion from my colleague Nick who's a Tottenham fan on the desk and I think this is a fantastic shout, Eric Lamella for cult heroes, for Tottenham two Raboners, he scored two Raboners including one against Arsenal and was a little bit of a tosser I can't say that Can I not say that?

44:48He was a little bit cheeky then shall we say and you know confronted opposition players often frustrating the definition of a cult hero I think Eric Lamella if I think he is a cult hero if there are Spurs fans who would who would gush about how much they adore him well it comes direct from a Tottenham fan then that qualifies direct from a Tottenham fan you can't be you can't be a cult hero if you're just absolutely annoying and I think you can be I think you can be a cult hero for just being annoying not just being annoying I think say a really big club where you've already got loads of talent elsewhere if you've just got like a squad player who came from the academy say and who just like runs around and kicks people but earns 150 caps or appearances sorry I think you could be a cult hero Ryan Yates Ryan Yates he's better than that but he is he's there because of his his spirit yeah like he's he's the great survivor in Nottingham Forest from Nottingham Forest Academy everyone's been sold off or you know sold to better teams or to lesser teams but he's beloved isn't he?

45:53yeah it wasn't when he first got on the team because people didn't think he was good enough that's a good ingredient to be a cult hero if you were unloved and unloved we've already mentioned him Robbie Savage surely for a lot of his teams was a kind of cult hero or was he too much the other way as a pantomime villain? when he left Derby he got two standing ovations one at his last penultimate away game and one at his final penultimate game away and his final game at home did he tell you that? no no no Well he did But I mean I know I asked him about it Because it's out there And in a way That makes him a cult hero When the fans Who've Been happy to boo him When they recognise He's hanging up his boots He deserves a brand of goals Right so Footballing cult heroes I think there's a couple Of good starters there Eric Lamella Tony Hibbert Ryan Yates Let's have some more But coming back to The idea of really good players Yeah And why I think So like JJ Ococha Yes Excellent So he was obviously A really really good player you can be a cult hero because you're too good for the team or level as well I think right Lee Trundle Lee Trundle Swansea very much so he was just a skills and flicks and tricks man he was really effective a football league cult hero for everyone really yeah but it's like he was almost his skill level was too good for league one or wherever he spent most of his career even league two and then he eventually when he was later later in his career he got a move to Bristol City I think yeah but Georgie Kinkadze sorry is what producer Neil's saying to me, Georgie King-Cladsey.

47:19He was too good for a Man City at the time. Yeah, you just said that as a parameter. I think the ultimate cult player is Dimitar Berbatov, actually. I think he fulfils all my criteria, and I've interviewed him, so there you go. But he's full of slightly pretentious, deep sayings. So he doesn't sound like a normal footballer. Like, when I met him, he said, you die. You die twice in your life. You die when you finish playing football, and then you... I can't fathom why you two got along, actually. It's so strange. But then, so how does Dimitri Berbatov contrast with Gianfranco Zola then? Or say, like Eric Cantona?

47:56Because Berbatov would have games where he was very quiet and you would get, if you took away his looks and personality, you might say, well, what's he done in that match? And then he'd have matches where you thought, oh my God, no one in the world can do what he just did. And he spoke to me about how he did literally visualise before the ball came to him. so he would slow down time so he could do those little tricks and volleys and just things that are exquisite because he saw the game at a different level. He's a cult hero because he never looked like he was trying very hard. So you could throw negatives at him like, is he a bit lazy?

48:33He was really arrogant because he had a T-shirt, you know. Keep calm and pass me the ball, he wrote on his undershirt when he played for Fulham. You need something quirky like that to be a cult hero. I think you need to write something on your shirt or say crazy things I don't think you need to be quirky necessarily I think you could also just be a bit of a headbanger you could be Duncan Ferguson Duncan Ferguson you could be Nick Hartford you could be guys who are famous for being really hard and that makes you a cult hero they make the hard men a footballist they're not cult heroes no they are I think Duncan Ferguson is because also he's a striker and not wanting to get into stats he was a great player but he didn't often score that many goals but he just was a cult figure everyone was like Duncan Ferguson Alex Ferguson was terrified of whenever he played against Duncan Ferguson in his defence a few shouts from listeners John O'Shea from Rajaman United fan plugging away Tony Hibbert level but also nutmegged Luis Figo let's be honest so that's a quirky standout thing isn't it you nutmeg Luis Figo when he played for Real Madrid in the Champions League and then plug away as John O'Shea playing about every position I mean we should just say like just to correct things I don't think he's of Tony Hibbert level this is at Manchester United a very good Manchester United he's still plugging away in that context isn't he though yes yes yes for the team James who's a West Ham fan says James Collins the ginger Pele at West Ham he can't be a cult hero just because of your hair colour I don't know listen these are just suggestions Pat who's an Everton fan said Thomas Graveson recently called by Ronaldo R9 the worst player that he'd ever played with but I think Thomas Graveson in terms of the headbanger-y type thing Gregor in terms of his stories that you hear about him at Celtic post career stuff as well has been done that Martin who's an Arsenal fan says Andre Arshavin just for the four goals alone Alex who's also an Arsenal fan says Steve Morrow I think this is a good quirky shout big in the 93 cup wins and then fell off Tony Adams shoulder while celebrating and broke or dislocated his shoulder I think that's quite a good barometer for a cult hero something slightly weird happening to you Stuart McCall at Bradford when he fell off the car celebrating after getting promoted I think they're good little things Ian McCulloch on Twitter got in touch to say Devin White Devin White Les Ferdinand standing at QPR in the mid-90s, accidental scorer of important goals.

50:47We also had a great suggestion from Zara, who's our audience editor on the desk and is a Bayern Munich fan. She said Mario Gomez, who was a striker in a period where they had a lot of good level strikers. But I didn't know this, that someone back in the day when the internet was a simpler time, created the Mario Gomez button. The Mario Gomez button, which you go on the website and it's just a big button that you click whenever he scores.

51:16there you go the Mario Gomez button I think come on Alison he's got a website with a button for when he scores isn't there a button in your home for when he scores it's not like call on Mario Gomez it's when he scores you play it Mario Gomez Mario Gomez it's a cult button it's not a cult player yeah Alison I'm surprised you're not mention Origi, Liverpool? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. He's sort of cult, but he did his job and he was obviously amazing late goals that he scored, including the one against Barcelona, but I don't know that there's an overwhelming fondness in the cult level for him. Very interesting.

52:00I think we've started a good thing here, Greg, and I think we can carry this on on Thursday's show. Get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Tell us your cult heroes for which club and if you want to query any of the parameters that we've set for how you define a cult hero in football also let me know we'll leave it there for today alison rudd and gregor robertson thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening as i say we'll be back on thursday we'll see you then press the tom clark button now you