EFL Extra: Championship manager(s)

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times. This is our EFL extra show every two weeks with me Tom Clark and the former football league football football. Robertson looking at the highs and lows, the best and the worst of the championship, League One and League Two. Gregor, there might have been no action in the championship on the pitch during the international break, but there's been plenty of action off it. Managerial changes galore. I think we probably have to start with one that we've been, I wouldn't say touting, touting is the wrong word, but we've been fearful that this might happen for Liam Manning at Norwich.

0:40those two deciding to part company after the last round of fixtures Norwich still on the search for a new manager as I say this is one that we have talked about previously on the show didn't seem to be the right fit they were struggling what do you make of this decision that they took around 10 days ago now? Yeah this is one we've seen coming for quite some time when a manager loses all eight of their home fixtures at the start of a season you're going to be on rocky ground and ultimately I think there's quite a lot of sympathy for Liam Manning both within the fan base, Norwich fan base which might sound surprising to some people given the results but I think the field that the hand he was dealt was a very difficult one and I think from outside Norwich as well because I think everyone knows that Liam Manning is a talented coach and it's just been a kind of union that's not worked out at all and there's been bigger issues at Norwich for a while Ben Knapper, the director of football, has been in the job for two years now, spent 13 years with Arsenal beforehand, first as an analyst and then laterally as loans manager.

1:48He's now sacked three managers in that time, two of whom he appointed. He's the guy who's going to be choosing the next one as well. So Norwich fans aren't entirely confident about that process. and then also when you add in the fact that Mark Atanasio the American who took control from Delia Smith not so long ago also kind of came out and backed Liam Manning very publicly just a few weeks ago, it didn't take very long or very much for that kind of support to wane so yeah sympathy for Liam Manning, only had 17 games in charge, that's no time at all but ultimately the atmosphere at Carrot Road has been toxic for some time now and probably it's one of those situations where it's best for all parties.

2:32As you say, a difficult start for him but when you look at the plain facts, second bottom in the table with only Sheffield Wednesday behind them, 15 games, nine points minus nine goal difference. As you say there, this is a big job for someone, isn't it? This is a job with huge potential but a lot of pressure. Reports coming out today that the announcement of a successor will be made in the coming days. Some suggestions that Jondal Thomason, the former Blackburn manager and Sweden manager as well, is the front runner. We believe Gary O 'Neill is not in contention, having been initially linked with the job.

3:08Whether it's Jondal Thomason or not, do you think I'm right there in saying that this is a bit of a double-edged sword in that if you get it right, you've got a club with huge ambition and huge potential, but you need it to go right pretty quickly? Yeah, no, I mean, I think Norwich are in danger. That sounds like an obvious thing to say, but they're not I think they could well go down the recruitment has been really poor for a couple of years now and the parachute payments have dried up now they're not a financial powerhouse as they were for much of the last decade when you consider how many times they've been promoted and relegated and always had that financial advantage over much of the competition that's gone and yeah of course it's like a club with big ambitions and should be aiming for the Premier League all the time but it feels a very long way away at the minute.

3:58And yeah, I'm not sure how appealing it is when the atmosphere's like the way it is. And there's a bit of kind of distrust of the people who are running the football club. So yeah, John Dal Thomason's got experience in the league but he's not had a, didn't have an easy time with Sweden. Will Still is another one who's been talked about and that would be kind of, I don't know, out of the frying pan into the fire that would be an odd one as well so like we'll probably come back to some of these names in the conversation about other clubs Gary O 'Neill's someone who I rate really highly but I think probably he could well be aiming higher than that Yeah really interesting big pressure on whoever gets the Norwich job to hit the ground running we'll see whether there's an announcement made in the coming days moving up the table a couple of places to 18th Swansea City they sacked manager head coach sorry Alan Sheehan just after just six months in charge, beaten 4-1 at home by Ipswich over a week ago.

4:59What do you make of this one, Greg? This isn't necessarily one that we touted, but again, maybe another club with ambitions to be higher up the league, or is this maybe an experiment with a young manager that hasn't quite worked? This is one that I think made a couple of poor appointments in the past, or appointments that haven't worked out, and Alan Sheehan has been the man who stepped into the breach and been a really safe pair of hands as a caretaker. In fact, he was brilliant last season as caretaker, which was his second stint in that role. I think they won 24 points from 13 games. They were flirting with relegation and he finished 11th and well cleared of the relegation zone.

5:37But there's been a bit of a change in the level of ambition and expectations at the club in the last year or so in terms of new US owners. Obviously, there was big headlines with Luka Modric and Snoop Dogg getting involved as minority shareholders at the club. They spent more money in the summer than they have for a long, long time. People like Adam Ida, Stamanech, Ethan Gilbraith, they paid decent fees for these players. So expectations have risen. Alan Sheehan, he's got the team playing really dominant football, they're expansive, they're the team that dominate most games, but they're woeful in terms of chance creation and goals.

6:23They've only scored 15 goals. I think they've got the lowest XG in the league and ultimately only won four of 15 games this season. So I think really probably the sort of level of ambition has changed in the time that I think last season after Luke Williams left, I think he kind of landed on the job and they were struggling to make an appointment. and he was a caretaker for ages and ages and ages before being given a three-year deal. And then, as is often the case, once that becomes permanent, then maybe the players ease off a little bit and have not shown anything like the levels they did last season, this season.

7:02Is this another one? I'm interested to hear you talk about Norwich there and thinking that they could be in trouble and the need for the new manager, whoever it may be, to hit the ground running. Do you think the same applies to Swansea? Are they a club that could drift? You know, it's interesting to hear these big clubs being struggling down the bottom. Of course, Sheffield United are another one who've already changed manager. And we've talked so much about some of the clubs punching maybe above their weight or above expectations near the top of the table. Do you think Swansea could struggle if they get the appointment wrong this time as well?

7:33I think Swansea are slightly better placed than Norwich. I think you look at their team and, you know, the pot neck up front has been someone who's been able to find the back of the net for Swansea and clearly is a good striker in the Championship. Galbraith was a really smart pick-up. You've got people like Tymon on the wing with some experience. Inousa as well. I think they've got enough to stay clear of the relegation zone. I think that they're a club that have drifted for a number of years now, actually. they've not really been sort of they've fluttered with relegation and they've never really although they were a club that were in the Premier League for a long time they've never really threatened to return there and I think that is the ambition now so I think someone could come in and get more from the players at their disposal and I think there's also the possibility of more investment in January so no I think I think Swansea actually is a more attractive job than it has been for a number of years Interesting.

8:45Swansea fans will certainly be hoping that's the case. Let's look at the other managerial change. Now, this wasn't a sacking, but perhaps the most controversial of them all. Rob Edwards leaving Middlesbrough to take over at Wolves. We've discussed this very much from Edward's point of view and from Wolves' point of view on the main show last week on Thursday. But what about Middlesbrough? AD Vivash taking charge of that game in interim form. They won that game. We believe there's a manager close to being appointed. but this is one where unlike some of the other two that we've talked about the opportunity is completely different and the pressure is completely different because Rob Edwards has got them sat second in the table and Middlesbrough fans will be wanting to keep that momentum going and keep a playoff or promotion push going.

9:26Yeah, clearly Middlesbrough are in a really positive position and situation. It's kind of eased off a bit in one of the last four in the last few weeks but it's clearly a very healthy position for any manager to come into. And as you say, Kim Helberg, Hammerby manager, has been strongly linked at the time of recording. He was also very strongly linked with Swansea. He kind of went with the bookmakers to declare favourite for both jobs in the same morning. Just say he's linked with both, mate, and then we can bet that we'll probably get one of them right normally on this show. He's going to be one of them.

10:01He's going to be managing one of them, yeah. He's linked with both listeners. He'll be there at some point in some form in the championship this season. Really interesting though, only 37 years old another kind of young manager in the championship that you know naively English fans are like who's this guy I've never heard of him so the pressure will be on him immediately especially if he gets the Millsborough job yeah I mean he's not someone that anyone will be familiar with he's led Hammerby to successive second place finishes in the Swedish top flight he was apparently in contention for the Swansea job after Luke Williams was sacked in February but Sheehan got the job on that occasion.

10:39He played in Swedish lower leagues. He's been a coach for about a decade. Had a few smaller clubs and kind of worked his way up the rungs of the ladder. So he's clearly been on the radar of a number of clubs for a little while. And it looks like he had a pick of two jobs and as I say at the time of recording, it looks like he's gone for the team with obviously a stronger squad, healthier playing budget, I would say still definitely just now and more potential to reach the Premier League this season. So it'll be interesting to see how he fares. Now you obviously went down the easy route of becoming a journalist and a pundit and chatting nonsense about the Football League with me on podcasts.

11:26But if you had been a manager, I'm guessing you wouldn't want the Norwich job based on what you're saying. But Middlesbrough in second, pressure on to stay there or Swansea down in 18th, upwardly mobile, which of the two jobs would you be picking if you were the manager of the side? I mean, it's got to be middles, but yeah. I mean, the strength of their squad too. Everyone always used Steve Gibson as the sort of example that's cited when you say pick your clubs because you picked the chairman. I don't think that's as true as it once was because he's rifled through a few managers in recent years and he's been quite bullish and punchy in terms of his approach to some of the broader issues in the Championship about financial fair play and things like that.

12:15Still, he's someone who's been owner of that football club for a couple of decades.

12:24He's always going to want to have Middlesbrough punching their weight, which is at the top end of the Championship and trying to aim for the Premier League. So, you know, you'd imagine he'll be backed. And as I say, but you also just come down to looking at the squad and the strength of it. You've got people like Hayden Hackney and, you know, Tommy Conway, Morgan Whitaker, Dale Fry, like Matt Target on loan at left back. You know, they've got a strong squad. I think there are probably stronger squads in the division. I think that there's not an enormous amount of firepower in terms of like chance creation and goals in the team compared to some others in the Championship.

13:03But there is the basis for a side that can undoubtedly challenge for a place in the top six. Yeah, fascinating to see who these clubs all pick. Let's finish with a chat about a manager very much in a job and excelling this season at Charlton. Now, they were one of the clubs that suffered from the EFL extra show jinx, Gregor, the last time we were on here, praising them for their brilliant run of form. And then they promptly lose a game and drop down to ninth in the championship table, having been just inside that playoff picture. But they've had a fantastic season after promotion in the playoffs last campaign.

13:37And you've been down to Charlton speak to their manager, Nathan Jones, and can give us a little exclusive insight before this interview is published on the Times website later this week. What was he like? He was good, yeah. He was in good form. Spoke about a wide range of subjects. First of all, about his wild celebrations, which seem to continue, have continued into the season. I think a lot of listeners might well remember his celebration in the playoff semi-final last season when he dropped his knees before the final whistle had even blown. He's obviously a born-again Christian and he's pointing to the sky and praising the Lord above.

14:15It was really dramatic stuff. Then just last week, a couple of weeks ago, sorry, before the international break, he scored a 95th or 96th minute winner against West Brom and he heard off down the touchline, he up on the hoardings and celebrating, punching the air in front of the fans. He's got a track record for this, but he was quite open about it. And he basically said he's like Batman and Bruce Wayne. He's got another persona for the 90 minutes, which he cannot help. And so he was good on that. He's good value on that. And then we spoke obviously about Southampton. They play Southampton this weekend.

14:50That's the first meeting with the club that sacked him after barely a couple of months in the job. Really, really kind of, that was the demise of a manager in the public eye. It was really kind of stark and it's quite painful to watch, actually. I think everyone will remember some of his post-match interviews and how kind of feisty and bullish he was. But he could not do anything to turn around their fortunes on the pitch. So he spoke about the scrutiny of the Premier League and how difficult that was. Obviously, it was a bruising time for him, but he's responded brilliantly with Charlton. They're a team that, as you said, they lost to Wrexham before the international break, but they're one of four teams on 23 points, which is just a couple outside the playoffs.

15:44And then we also spoke a bit about the way they're playing this season too, and they have 43 % of the ball. It's the second lowest in the championship above only Derby County. They're really, really solid and resolute and it's been quite a big journey for Nathan Jones. He started out at Luton Town in League 2 and League 1 playing really expansive football. They kind of had a diamond formation in midfield that they were wedded to and scored a bucket load of goals. Really exciting team to watch. Expansive, as I said. Got the Stoke job, tried to do the same. Then we spoke about this and he said, he realised he didn't have the players to do it and he couldn't, that was a mistake and then when he returned to Luton they were in a championship by that point and he said he looked at it and thought how do we compete with Leeds United and Fulham and teams that have got a budget five times the size of ours and this was the way it was to do things that would ruffle the feathers and that's kind of that kind of goes with the zeitgeist at the moment in terms of more direct football they've won 100 more aerial duels than any other club in the championship scored more set plays than anyone other than Coventry I think they've got the second best defence after Stoke so they're really tough to play against and he made no bones about that this is the way that we see ourselves competing with the best teams in the division and it's working for Charlton they're in fine fetal They've got the highest crowds in 17 years, 17 years since they were relegated from the Premier League.

17:21And he's got a real kind of energy at the Valley again, which is great after so many really difficult, challenging years for Charlton Athletic. Yeah, as you say, managers able to adapt and willing to adapt. Our colleague Alison Rudd from Monday's show, regular show, will be delighted to hear that. So I'm sure she and lots of Charlton fans will be interested to read that interview that you can get on the Times website later this week, as Gregor says, Charlton against Southampton. One of many big matches in the championship this weekend. I can't wait to watch Sheffield Wednesday against Sheffield United on Sunday.

17:53Midday kickoff, 24th against 22nd in the table. Who'd have thought that at the start of the season, particularly for Sheffield United fans. In case you missed it, Sheffield Wednesday fans, we had an interview with Barry Bannon speaking to Paul Hurst last week. Make sure you check it out. Definitely one of the most interesting characters in football, purely if only for his loyalty to that club, despite them going through hard times. Loads more still to come on this show. We're going to look at League One and League Two, but we'll take a quick break. Give Gregor Robinson the easiest quiz question in the history of the world to see if we can get him back up and running.

18:25Which League One striker made their 700th league appearance at the weekend? Find out after the break.

18:42Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. This is our EFL Extra Show with me, Tom Clark, and the football league legend, Grego Robertson. Not becoming much of a quiz legend, I'm afraid. I'm in a little... Ladies and gentlemen, another blank. You've got in your head. This is like, you're a bit like a cricketer. The ashes are coming around, so we'll go do a cricket reference. You're a bit like a bowler with the yips. It's like you've forgotten how to answer quiz trivia on football. I'll have to make Thursday's question really, really easy. The answer to the question about the League One striker making their 700th league appearance this weekend was of course Doncaster's Billy Sharp.

19:15Now Gregor, I'd say League One is becoming, it always is, but this season is kind of pointless for us to talk about it in lots of ways. So maybe we should just stop because the last time on the show we came on, we talked about Stockport being brilliant at the top of the table. They then went and lost 3-0 at home to Luton. We talked about Peterborough, they're struggling. They won 5-0 at home to Wimbledon. Cardiff, who'd been near the top of the table, lost to Blackpool. Bradford lost at home, having been brilliant. They'd really turned Valley Parade into a fortress. They lost at home to Burton.

19:48So this is just to say, listeners, we don't know what we're doing here. We've got no chance whatsoever of giving you any sort of decent predictions about where League One is going. And I would say, Gregor, that continued this weekend. Not all teams playing this weekend due to international call-ups, so just this random smattering of games. but the games that happened left the table with just two points between the top six which when you think about how excited we're getting about the fact that Manchester City have closed the gap on Arsenal in the Premier League to four points two points between the top six and by the way six points between first and twelfth is is just crazy and just shows you how how tight this league is I I firmly believe and have done for a while of course I see it up close and personal with being a fan of a team in it.

20:37But I've thought for a while that this team is actually, this league is actually one of the most competitive and difficult to predict, actually more so than the championship. Yeah. I mean, it's like this season after season. It's extraordinary. I remember doing a report, like a journeyman column a few years back where I think I went to Bristol Rover down to, no, it was at Plymouth and they were playing Bristol Rovers and they were both like in mid table and they could have been in the relegation zone by the end of the day. And it was like, a few games away from the end of the season. It was just so tight right down to the end.

21:10It happens year after year after year. So you're right. I mean, look, the 12th team you're talking about are Burton Albion. Boyer's done an extraordinary job there. And like beating Blackpool and Bradford recently, Drew with Rotherham, who in a rich vein of form, beating Wimbledon, who I think also a really interesting thing in the last week or so was the fact that they came out and kind of publicly said, we need money. We can't be fan owned and compete at this level. We can't be sustainable in League One and League Two without outside investment. We can't just rely on stadium revenue from, you know, the lovely stadium, it's an extraordinary story of the rise and, you know, returning to Plough Lane, but they're in debt and like they've reduced the debt and they've paid off the Plough Lane bonds.

22:00They helped them build the stadium, but they say their budget ranks 23rd out of the 24 teams in League One so there's also a lot of money in League One now like a team, a club that you think of the size and the sort of latent fan base of Wimbledon and all that story can't compete so it's a fascinating league on many levels but it's also a league that's got quite a lot of financial might now as well Yeah, absolutely As you say, Burton Albion getting a good 1-0 win against Blackpool at the weekend. Leighton Orient beating Exeter 2-1. Tariq Bakington's lovely volley. Go and check that out. It's a really crisp, excellent finish.

22:38Luton Town 0-0 at home against Rotherham. A good result for Jack Wilshire. Another one, he's had a decent start. They've kept three consecutive league clean sheets for the first time since March 2023 when they did so in the Championship. A decent start for Wilshire. He's got them up to eighth in the table. Obviously, big chat and big ambitions for that team to get back to the championship. There was also another 0-0 draw for Port Vale against Wickham. And the other result in the league, Gregor, don't worry. I'm not going to talk about it for ages. But Lincoln City, 2-1 winners against Billy Sharpe's Doncaster.

23:11Gregor, we are up to second in the league. And if there's any better sign of what on earth is going on in League One, it's Lincoln City being second. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. This was not a classic by any means. I will not mention it too much. There was a lovely, lovely headed goal by Francis Okunawa, who is on loan from Everton. Beautiful. Just a very simple old school goal. Beautiful cross, beautiful header. Make sure you check it out. Really, really lovely old school goal. Doncaster came back into it in the second half and then we went straight up the other end after equalising. Another thing that never happens to any football club, but just one minute and 28 seconds between Doncaster equalising, me throwing my shirt on the floor and stamping on it and throwing a strop and Lincoln immediately regaining the lead with a very, very lucky own goal.

23:56So not a classic by any means, but we don't care. One thing I wanted to quickly ask you was, anyone who went to a football game that was on this weekend will tell you that the weather was absolutely dreadful. And in the second half, it was one of those peak things where you're sat there and it's sideways rain. It's cold probably for the first time this season. You're shivering. You've just watched your team, you know, concede an equaliser and you think, what on earth am I doing this for? And also, what on earth are the players thinking out there? because I genuinely, the second half was one of the longest second halves ever.

24:26And I'm convinced it must have been because it was just absolutely siling down. And I made me think, I wanted to ask you, does that genuinely affect the players? I know it's a stupid thing to say as someone who plays football in Britain, but the conditions sometimes can be absolutely atrocious. Are there any times, whether it's rain or frost or cold or snow, where you're just like, actually, this is really unpleasant. I cannot wait for full time. Yeah, the one that sticks out for me was I'll return to Burton Albion's Pirelli Stadium here with Chesterfield on a boxing day. I won't be able to tell you the year.

25:00And it was just the coldest I've ever been in a football match. And you never, you know, he's staffed. You don't really feel the cold when you're playing. But this day was different. and I remember running out for the second half and our goalkeeper Tommy Lee who had long hair and he always wet his hair and had like a headband his hair was frozen solid and instead of running out for the second half it was absolutely Baltic so yeah when it's really really extreme or like when you get hailstones that hurt you and stuff yeah of course it does affect you but more often than not you're used to it you've done it all your life and as you say it's part of playing football in Britain yeah I mean I'm telling you honestly I was watching this thinking these players just want to get off even once we took the lead I was thinking all the players looked like they went yeah fine do you know what we've had enough that's fine let's call it a day anyway Lincoln fans and myself absolutely delighted of being second in the table but as I said League 1 you cannot predict anything we could be 10th by the time next time we speak to you in a couple of weeks let's finish with a quick look at League 2 Grego what's caught your eye in the last couple of weeks I'd say Bromley actually Bromley They've put together three wins in a row.

26:09They're up to fifth. I think he kind of went under the radar a bit last season too. They finished 11th last season, but there were only four points outside the playoffs. And clearly their team was built around Michael Cheek. He was League Two Player of the Year last season, which was his first in the AFL. He's just recently turned 34. That's a great story in itself. And once again, he's got more goal contributions, 11, eight of which have been his goals, than any other player in the league. Andy Woodman's doing a fantastic job there they're up to fifth so that's one to keep an eye on I think they could be dark horses this year and then another is MK Dons I think they have scored 31 goals which is the second most in the country behind Coventry obviously and their XG is 21.5 so they've scored 10 more goals than their XG which is the 12th in the league I think that's the biggest discrepancy I've ever seen.

27:06And that will be really interesting as well to monitor over the rest of the season. They're not like all of their chance creation, all those kind of metrics are really mid-table. And yet they're the second highest goal scorers in the country. So Paul Warren marks his 450th game as manager with a 2-0 win against Salford, managed by Carl Robinson, the former MK Duns. manager at the weekend so they're doing really well and they're up there but it'd be interesting to see like whether they can maintain that over the course of the season and then the final one I would say as well is Tom Lockyer's return I think this may be going under the radar for a few people too Tom Lockyer obviously suffered cardiac arrest in a Premier League match for Luton that was the second time he did it in the in the championship playoff final at Wembley and he's he made his return to the club that he started with.

28:04Bristol Rovers did it a few weeks back, but he's in the team and playing every week now, really. I think that's a really heartwarming story. He's made a point himself of saying, I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't safe. He's had a defibrillator fitted and he's back playing. I think that's, despite Bristol Rovers' struggles, they're on a really bad run. That's a really heartwarming story of the season. Yeah, definitely a lovely note to end on. We hope it all goes well for Tom Lockyer in his return to football this season. Gregor, we'll leave it there. We'll return with an EFL show very soon. But thank you very much for joining me as always.

28:41Thank you too for listening. We'll be back with the regular show on Thursday. We'll see you then.