EFL Extra: Leicester City Special

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1:06Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. This is our EFL Extra show with me, Tom Clark. And today I'm joined by The Sunday Times football correspondent, Jonathan Northcroft, for a special show looking at the crisis at Leicester City. Relegated to League One this week, just one year on from going down from the Premier League and 10 years on from that amazing Premier League title triumph under Claudio Ranieri. Johnny, you live in Leicester and you also wrote a brilliant book about that title win in 2016. I've been pondering this a lot this week. You know, Luton, of course, suffered successive consecutive relegations from the Premier League and then the Championship.

1:45They find themselves battling away in League One this season. But I don't know whether it's the anniversary of that title win or maybe the state of things at the club. You know, they've still got quite a lot of big name players there. this feels a little bit bigger doesn't it am I right in thinking that would you agree absolutely Tom look at 10 years on is is such a symbolic sort of point in time I don't think there's ever been a script like Leicester's to to do what they did and then to fall like they have I mean I was at the game on Tuesday night which was so toxic and so flat and depressing and in so many ways and I was standing with a couple of journalists in the mix though and actually looking at the previous clubs who've dropped two divisions from the Premier League all in one go and none of the names none of the examples are anything like this none of them I think Blackburn did it as Premier League champions but that was a different era the thing about Leicester is it's Yes, it's 10 years since the miracle, but actually this drop has been a very short and steep one because it's only four years ago that Leicester were FA Cup holders in the last four in the European competition, had won the Community Shield and were battling to get into the Champions League.

3:06I think we finished sixth that year. So it's only four years ago that they were in that position. and it's been those three relegations in four years accruing players who are on you know sort of 100 grand a week 90 grand a week and still dropping with the financial penalties they've suffered and the PSR problems they've had all of that feels like the club is now a really critical point as I say the mood was toxic fans are not renewing their season tickets at the moment there's a sense that it could get worse and when Leicester went down to League One before under Nigel Pearson first time in their history in 2009 they had a plan they had a a manager who had a real sense of it Nigel Pearson was always more of a sporting director than just a coach there's no figure like that at the moment we don't even know who's going to be manager next season and at the top and from the owner to John Rodkin it it's the it's the same regime that's presided over the decline so the feeling in the city is completely different and I don't know what lies ahead in terms of just very quickly before we get on to some of the situations off the pitch and mismanagement and things you're at the game this week of course but you know we talked there about some of the players in this group, this team shouldn't have gone down, should it?

4:37This squad shouldn't have gone down. Like I remember Gregor and I talking about them in the preview show and said, oh, you don't know what you're going to get with Leicester. You know, the manager's a bit of an unknown, but they, you know, with this squad, with some experienced players in there, they've got to be hoping for the playoffs. Like this shouldn't have happened this season in isolation, should it really? A hundred percent, but it really struck me on Tuesday how ill-suited to the championship that squad was. first 10-15 minutes Les were actually really good, they popped the ball around, it was all nice they looked a bit like a Premier League club, they were absolutely toothless, Pats and Dakar missed the chance from two yards then the goalkeeper there Begovic throws the ball to Hull and they score before that the football had been actually, you know, this is quite nice stuff but it was like watching a Premier League team getting ambushed in the FA Cup by a much more hungry, cohesive physical um EFL side now you you got a better idea than me Tom but is it not the case that in league one they're going to face even more of this if they try and go down with a squad that they can try and play a bit of nice football but without any kind of edge in either box and without any real kind of I think I guess guts intensity physicality they're gonna be in trouble aren't they?

5:58Absolutely. I mean, I talk about it and slightly joke about it with Gregor, but I firmly believe that League One is one of the most difficult leagues to get out of. Everyone talks about the championship and rightly so, and the National League can make a good case for it as well. But in League One, they're going to face teams such as Bolton, Huddersfield, potentially Luton. Some of these teams could go up via the playoffs this season, but if not, they're still going to be in there. Plymouth as well. They're going to be really, really big teams who think they should be in the championship already.

6:25They've been spending big money to, you know, build really strong League One clubs. And then, of course, you're going to have teams like Bromley, maybe, who are going to be going, this is brilliant. We get to go up against Leicester City. Teams like Stevenage, again, they might go up this season, but if not, they will give them such a great game. So hard to beat, so resilient. It's such a tough, physical, really battle-hardened league that you know you talk about these players that harry winks pats and dacker yeah yeah are they ready for this yeah and you talk about a plan as well it's interesting you referenced nigel pearson as well there because you know we've seen some examples of clubs in recent years birmingham city being a great example of where you know they had a project in place didn't they under this american ownership that didn't quite go to plan but they went down to league one going we're going to blow everyone out the water here they bought jay standsfield for 15 million pounds you know they spent the season with all their players going look we know we're a championship team and they proved it they finished on 100 plus points they were by far and away too good for the league but Leicester I don't think they're going to have that are they Johnny they're not look Wrexham also springs to mind in that I think one of the beauties of their rise is alongside the the money going in they've had Phil Parkinson they've had a really experienced clever manager who knows all the four divisions and non-league properly and has been able to buy the right players at the right time, really struck me how much the Hull fans enjoyed themselves at the King Power.

7:56Leicester are going to be that scalp that everybody wants to take. You know, far from Leicester having a stadium that's going to intimidate people, those players in League One are going to love going there. Fans are going to love going there. The Hull fans were singing throughout about this is why you're going down. And when Leicester fans try to sing Champions of England, you'll never sing that. They would just laugh at them. This is a problem for Leicester now. And you look at players like some of the ones you've mentioned, Ricardo Pereira, who five years ago was one of the best fullbacks in the Premier League, but a nice footballer, a small fullback, not a physical fullback who can defend the back post or anything like that.

8:34Vestergaard, Danish international, somehow manages to lose physical duels at six foot six because he's actually a footballer. he's not a strong centre-half. Now, some of these players are going to leave because of being out of contract, but some of them are still tied to Leicester and they're going to face some difficult decisions as to maybe whether to just cut the losses on some of them. And then, who do they sell to fund the rebuild? Inevitably, it's going to be their better players. In terms of funding that rebuild as well, let's just a bit of detail on the financial situation as you understand it, because that is so vital.

9:14You know, I mentioned Birmingham there. They went down to League One with huge revenues and chance to sign a lot of players. Just let's get back out of this issue that we've created for ourselves. Leicester don't really have that. You know, the football finance expert, Kieran Maguire, reporting this week, and Ian Whittle mentioned it in his article on the Times website, that whilst they had parachute payments, they've largely kind of banked them already against either future investments or loans taken out, if I've understood that correctly. Please do correct me if I'm wrong. But there's not necessarily a big pot of cash, is there, here for Leicester and the ownership model that, as you say, only recently was talking about European football and FA Cups.

9:51They're not going to go down and be able to spend their way out of this. No, it would be the opposite. Look, I mean, first of all, they had the six-point deduction for falling foul of PSR because of the heavy losses,£200 million over three years. that's before the the latest loss which was i think 71 million pre-tax which was a 52 million higher than the the year before um the training ground which was built for 100 million pounds costs millions to just the upkeep of it it's got a golf course it's got a hotel um it's got a fishing lake which was built for jamie vardy perhaps and he's not there anymore But keeping that up is incredible.

10:33The owner keeps putting money in. He wrote off£124 million of debts two years ago, put in more money last year. The parachute payments, as you say, may have already been banked or spent, rather. I think League One, if I understand it right, you are allowed owner equity in injections in a more generous way than you are in the championship. But whether top, the owner, can actually do that is in doubt. I would suggest they're going to need to sell some of their better players, as I said. And those would be people like the jewels of the youth academy, like Jeremy Monger and Lewis Page maybe, Ben Nelson Fatawu who another one that looked lost in the championship but a talent to play for I remember him at Sporting Lisbon definitely a talent but they spent 20 million on him and they need to recoup on him so they're going to need to do a few clever things in the transfer market which is what they used to be able to do but they've lost that Midas touch a long time ago but going back to what I mentioned about Phil Parkinson and who's going to be the figure if it's not going to be the coach that's going to tell them the right place to sign for League One?

11:55I think one thing that's interesting, Johnny, I'd like to ask you about, I mentioned at the very top there that you live in Leicester and you probably interact with fans quite a lot. Thinking about all these clubs that have dire moments, you know, Sheffield Wednesday this season got to have candidates as some of the best supporters in England going and turning up still to support their team despite everything they're going through. What is the mood in the city like? Because you'll have fans there, maybe kids or maybe young teenagers who only ever knew Leicester as Premier League teams, Jamie Vardy, Riyad Mahrez, they're going to have to get used to them being a League One team now again.

12:29What is the mood like amongst the fan base? Is there an appetite for this kind of battle to get out of League One that they're going to face next season? Mood's grim. I think they've almost alienated both sets of fans. The new fans who bought into this Premier League club, it's less interesting for them. but the older fans, a lot of the guys I know, I feel so drained by the last four or five years. So drained. Stadium was half empty on Tuesday. You know, Leicester walk on and they're one of those clubs that use the fire cannons and the balls on the plinth and they play the famous post-Own Gallop.

13:06It sounds like a hunting tune that anyone that's been in the King Power will recognise. Players are coming out to all that paraphernalia and they're being booed, you know, into the arena. it was so at odds with the spectacle booed as the names are read out except for Jordan James who of course isn't actually Leicester's player he's been their player of the year but he's only one that wasn't booed Harry Winks goes to warm up booed probably can't say on this pod exactly what they were chanting at him but rhymes with banker route round the stadium full time the fans the players are kind of in the centre circle they're not sure, they know they can't just go to the dressing room because that would look bad they've just been relegated but they're too scared to go near the supporters Jamal the skills, God bless him, had the courage to sort of at least go up to the fans and walked into the jeers and the chants but at least he did and a couple went with him, I was outside the stadium afterwards watching the protest there was about 100 fans just waiting for players to come out and yelling at them.

14:14And that's the mood. That is the ones that can be bothered to turn up are booing because there's plenty that aren't turning up anymore. But when you speak to supporters and you listen to the Fox's Trust who are one of the more prominent fan groups and very clued up, the big message that comes across is we are drained of this. We do not see where change is coming from. And we see a regime that has presided over decline. And their idea of fixing things is to actually promote the sporting director, John Rodkin, who's been in charge of a lot of the decline. And just shuffle things around. But there's no sense that change is coming.

14:57And that's what's contributing to this sort of flat mood. and unless they can change that by the time they get into League One, they're going to start next season in the same mood, same atmosphere at the stadium that they've had this season and that's a recipe for disaster. Yeah. Johnny, I want to pick up on that theme in just a second and ask you more generally about your thoughts and feelings on the state of football within this country. But it's time for a little break. We'll be back with you in just a second.

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16:51Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. This is a very special version of our EFL Extra Show with me, Tom Clark, and I've got the Sunday Times football correspondent, Johnny Northcroft, dissecting the situation at Leicester. Johnny, before the break there, we were talking about the kind of mood in the city and amongst the fan base. We've talked so much about all the problems that are facing Leicester at the minute. As they head into this summer, this seismic summer for the future of the club, what do you think their kind of priority list is? You know, you've talked about the need for deciding a manager, a clear out of players, get the fans back on side, season tickets not being sold.

17:26They all kind of tie into one, but is there one thing that you think they need to nail this and nail this quickly? They need to give the fans some connection back, don't they? We were sort of joking about, do they bring back Jamie Vardy making player manager or something like that? You'd love to see it, wouldn't you? Jamie Vardy scores 40 goals for Leicester in Ligue 1. Exactly. Yeah, and I'd love him to be player manager and sort of see what kind of refueling and sort of sports science he gets into with the players. Yes, I can say. The vodka and skittles diet. But yeah, no, I mean, like something like that.

18:02You know, Kasper Schmeichel's been a massive loss to that football club. You know, he was, like Vardy, one of the culture bearers. And they let him go at the same time before Vardy. But if they could get some figures like that back, Do you think, you obviously know that team that title winning team, you know, you wrote this brilliant book, are there any characters out there amongst that team who you genuinely think either as on the board as a coach in any form, get them back in Where's Morgan? Get Wes on the board, they all love the football club, I was speaking to Christian Fuchs earlier this week, Christian Fuchs is still a Leicester supporter, he's managing Newport at the moment he's too early in his managerial career, he's got other things on his mind but he was there on Tuesday he said he's a fan and I think all of those guys maybe Kante and Mahrez have still got a few other priorities at the moment like a World Cup but I think all of them would want to help in some way one of the problems is that the regime we have now are kind of the ones that got rid of a lot of these players like Kasper before time and even Jamie Vardy would have possibly stayed if a different conversation had been had but they do need the clear out will happen to an extent right the likes of Winks and Begovic Ramsey Ayew they're going to go but they're still going to the Vester guards are going to stay it they have the fans have to have people on the pitch that they they think of as Leicester again that they can identify with not not these guys and it comes back to I think I think recruitment and getting somebody who will understand who those players might be.

19:54Because I've been very doom and gloom, right? But you could flip it. You could say to any of the better talent outside the top two divisions, or even a really good championship player who's come in maybe towards the end of his time at a club, come to Leicester, come and play for a team that's won the title. Come and play for a team with the best training ground possibly in the whole country. a Champions League training ground, come and play in one of the biggest stadiums. There is still a great offer there and they've got to harness that. They've got to find that. But it's connection. If it's not Jamie Vardy back on the pitch, it's at least players who embody what Jamie Vardy had.

20:36Yeah, absolutely. And Johnny, you're talking about that kind of positivity, negativity. This is obviously a very dire story that we've dissected on this show. But just a final kind of note from you as the kind of football correspondent, looking at the lay of the land within football in this country. You know, Leicester, obviously, an example of poor management, you know, really, really tough times for a club. You do also have Coventry winning the championship, of course. What a fantastic achievement that is for a club that has experienced really dark times in recent memory as well. Bromley, whilst they lost against Salford, you know, they are going to get promoted from League Two and dare I manage to sneak in a mention of my own team, Lincoln City, of course.

21:15But to contrast that, in the Championship, you've got Sheffield Wednesday going down with points deductions, Leicester going down with points deductions. How do you see the big picture? And I appreciate this is a big question to end on, but are you kind of more positive or negative about the state of football in England at the moment? Well, look, a lot of my attention is focused on the Premier League, right? But when I look outside of that, I actually see a common pattern throughout the top four divisions, which is that there are big clubs whose arrogance and mismanagement is allowing the sort of excellence of other better run, better put together projects to flourish.

22:00you know not just saying this for your sake but if you look at Lincoln and their wage bill going up as champions Bromley not not anywhere near the biggest wage bill um going up but well run well coach Coventry first team in a long time without parachute payments to go up as champions and then the bigger clubs that you've talked about the Leicesters and Sheffield Wednesdays going down um that's the same pattern you see in the Premier League with the Brightons and the Bournemouths outperforming the the Chelsea's and getting back to your question I do think that shows football still alive and kicking as a meritocratic sport I think there is a rude health element there that money hasn't totally taken over that um that it it comes down to performance and cleverness a lot of the time Crystal Palace are still the FA Cup holders so there's a lot to be really positive about.

22:56My negativity, the negatives I see are the underperformances and the stupidity of the bigger entities, but the bigger clubs throughout the divisions, but there are also these great stories. I think it's been a really good season from that point of view from top to bottom. Yeah, plenty of reasons to be cheerful. A wonderful note to end on, Johnny Northcroft. Thank you very much for joining us to dissect the situation at Leicester. We look forward to seeing you on the regular show again very soon. Johnny Northcroft there with all the latest analysis on the situation at Leicester. No Gregor Robertson with me this week, listeners, but I couldn't leave you without running through some of the exciting matches to come this weekend in the EFL.

23:38Loads still on the line in the Championship. Of course, Coventry are promoted and sealed their title as champions. Ipswich are currently in second. They've still got that game in hand that Gregor Robertson has kept banging on about, but they are level on points with Millwall Southampton just behind them in fourth. Wrexham have snuck in to that playoff spot in sixth, just ahead of Hull, but they're on the same number of points. Wrexham's owner's been joking me on social media this week. They face Coventry on Sunday. They'll be hoping Coventry have got a bit of a hangover. At the bottom, Oxford must get a win against Sheffield Wednesday.

24:13They're taking up the third relegation place in the championship. Charlton, Portsmouth, Blackbird and West Brom above them, hoping that safety will be secured this weekend. In League One, Lincoln and Cardiff, of course, already promoted and the playoff pitcher behind them, much as it has been all season, Bolton, Bradford, Stockport and Stevenage, all in amongst it, Luton and Plymouth still chasing. But there's a fascinating situation developing at the bottom of League One. Exeter, Gregor Robertson, I'm not just digging him out because he can't answer back, but he said a few weeks ago there could be down and out.

24:50They are not yet. It's really, really tight. Two games to go. Exeter taking up that final relegation place on 48 points, just ahead of them. Wimbledon, who have been on a stinking run, haven't won in absolutely yonks. They've lost the last six games, just two points ahead of Exeter. Leighton Orion in 19th on 51, just three points ahead of Exeter. Burton Albion just above them. Exeter face Burton this weekend. Burton are a team that Gregor and I both praise so often on this show. Blackpool have got Leighton Orient. They'll be hoping to secure the survival, the death in it. I'm sure Gregor and I would be telling producer Neil that they're basically safe already.

25:29But it'll be fascinating to see. We had Exeter with a goal from their goalkeeper last weekend to keep them in it. So further proof that there is madness to come in the Football League. And just if you thought that was bonkers, let's take a look, a final look at League Two. Bromley, as I mentioned earlier, with Johnny losing last night against Salford, who have gone into third. So the top of League Two currently sits with Bromley having only got one more game to play on, 84 points. They've won out a win in the last three games. Milton Keynes. Dons can go top this weekend with a win. And as I say, Salford barging their way into that third automatic promotion place.

26:06It's still very tight below them. Cambridge, Knox County, Swindon, Grimsby. They all play each other, as Gregor Robertson has been saying in recent weeks. But my new current obsession, listeners, the bottom of League Two, the battle to remain in the Football League. As it stands, these are the points totals. Harrogate, written off so often, getting a win last weekend. They're on 36. Barrow, 36. Newport, 37. Crawley, 38. Tranmere, just ahead of them, getting a big win recently on 40 points. All five teams so, so tight for those two final relegation places out of the Football League and I will just leave you with a mention of an excellent article that's on the Times website now by Ian Whittle looking at the battle to get into the Football League from the National League.

26:51Rochdale against York this weekend. Forget Arsenal against Man City last weekend. That wasn't even close to the most exciting title decider in football. York are top of the National League 107 points. They face Rochdale who have 105. They go head to head. 12.30 on Saturday to decide who our National League champions. We'll have a report of that on the Times website on Monday. We'll be back with the regular show on Monday and me and Gregor will be back with an EFL extra show next week too. We'll see you then.

28:07We'll see you next time. or organization? Well, it's easier than you think. We're Acast, and we give you the platform to do it all yourself. Browse thousands of popular podcasts, choose the shows that match your perfect audience, set your budget, and launch. And if you want a hand, our podcast specialists are there to help you launch with confidence. This is podcast advertising without barriers. Get started at acast.com slash advertise.