EFL Extra: Sheffield Wednesday Special

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from The Times. Points deductions, administration, potential new owners and even the sale of golden elephant statues. If those issues affected one club in the course of an entire season, most fans would despair. But that is just a week in the life of a Sheffield Wednesday fan. This is a special EFL Extra podcast taking a look at a huge week for the Championship Club, outlining how it came to this, what's happening at the club now and what lies ahead in the days and weeks to come. I'm Tom Clark and joining me for this show, we have the journalist who has been all over this story in the past week, covering the news of administration on Friday and writing in-depth on the situation at the club now.

0:44He also happens to be a Sheffield Wednesday fan. Paul Hurst, welcome back to the game. Quite a couple of days. Yeah, I'm not really sure I should be doing this. I should be having a lie down. It's been... Treat it as therapy, mate. This is... We're off your chest, come on. This is, you know, we've had a lot of listeners get in touch saying, Tom, you've got to cover the situation at Sheffield Wednesday. So we're doing this for them, but we're also doing this for you just to get a few ideas and thoughts off your chest. Should we only say his long, should I? Yes, probably, probably. Yeah, it's been a really hectic few days.

1:17It started off with the club finally being placed into administration by Dejfond Chancery last Friday morning. It seemed forever that he wouldn't sell, despite the protests against him, that he wouldn't sell the club despite having no money or appearing to have no money and not paying the staff on time in five of the last seven months, but eventually relented on Friday morning, placed the club into administration. And then, yeah, the administrators took over and the hallmarks of the Chancery reign started literally to be ripped out of the club. We saw his name that's been on the North Stand in Hillsborough for the last nine years be ripped out.

2:05The letters were removed. And that was, to me, a very symbolic act because that was such a moment of relief for fans that he was finally out of the club. You know, people thought, oh, administration, what does this mean? You know, 12-point deduction is not good. But ultimately, the best thing to come out of it was him leaving the club because he started off his reign in quite a promising fashion. He got to two playoffs in his successive years and beat Arsenal, beat Newcastle, Hillsborough. But the last few years have been so painful for fans and staff and players that everyone wanted rid of him.

2:48And that finally happened on Friday morning. Yeah, that's a great, perfect summary for us, really. And I think that talks really powerfully to any fans, really, not just Sheffield Wednesday fans. As I say, this is a Sheffield Wednesday special, but they are one of many, many clubs in the Football League who are a big club with a big history and a big following who have ambitions. Ultimately, that's where this comes from, doesn't it? Ambition. Ambition to reach the top. Ambition to reach that money, those big golden pots of cash in the Premier League. But not everyone can do it. And as you say, there were good times, but there've been more bad times recently.

3:22So just tell us a bit about the kind of progress over the weekend then. because as you say, as a fan yourself, and it's quite interesting that you mentioned that already because Lee, who's a listener to the show, got in touch with me on Friday saying, bloody hell, pal, what great news. He's gone. It says something when administration is a good thing. And I mean, that was the feeling amongst Sheffield Wednesday fans, wasn't it? Because only a few days earlier, there'd been empty stands for a game against Middlesbrough and then there were packed stands for the game against Oxford at the weekend.

3:50Yeah, it was, when you look at administration, it always has negative connotations. you know, attached to it, you think, oh, it's a dark day for a football club. But I've never seen so many people jump for joy when, you know, when this happened on Friday. It was just such a relief. And, you know, you said, Tommy, you're right, that fans have been boycotting games. They'd not been going to the club shop, not buying anything from the club shop or in the stalls. I remember going to matches earlier this season, and usually at Hillsborough, you go down five minutes before halftime and start queuing for a pint or a pie.

4:33But this time there was no one there because there was a protest, not a pound in the ground. Fans weren't supposed to spend any money and quite a lot of them stuck to it. But it was reversed on Friday morning. The administrators pleaded with people to spend money, to come and put money into the club because the staff needed paying I spoke to the administrator and he said there was not one pound in the football club. Chancery had left absolutely nothing there for the staff or for the players. So the administrators addressed the staff on Friday morning at the training ground and they were saying, what do you want us to do?

5:13And the administrator said, you need to get as many people in that stadium on Saturday and as many people paying money into the tills in the club shop. otherwise you won't be paid next Friday. It was laid out to me in really stark terms and they responded brilliantly coming up with ideas to raise money and we saw an incredible response. The club shop was so busy on Saturday that the queues were sneaking around the whole building and it's a big place as well, the megastore at Hillsborough and I think it was by Saturday evening they'd collected or they had 200 ,000 in the tills and then 9 ,000 people had bought tickets as well.

6:01So 200 ,000 raised over the space of just over 24 hours. Yeah, and I read recently that I think that's now up to half a million pounds since Friday which is extraordinary when you base that just on ticket sales and club shop and all that kind of thing that goes with it. So often these days in modern football said oh we don't actually make much money off this you've now got a club going come and buy the training kit please you know we need this we need this I mean just a quick word on the staff both on and off the pitch here because there is a case to be made that Sheffield Wednesday as a football club is still standing because of the love and affection and goodwill of a lot of people who because of the previous organisation hadn't been paid for a lot of the time that they've been at the club Yeah, and I went down to the training ground a couple of weeks ago to interview the manager, Henrik Pedersen, who, by the way, he's a great guy.

6:58He's basically been holding the first team squad together along with his coaches. and I was just chatting to staff there and, you know, they were just downtrodden, just absolutely, you know, worn out and with fear and anxiety about when they were going to get paid, if they were going to get paid. And it was just a really, it was a really kind of bad atmosphere amongst the staff. That wasn't reflected in the actual first team squad and the training session. That was all upbeat, all very positive. And that is all down to Henrik Pedersen and his coaches managing to insulate the players from all this nonsense that's going on in terms of running the club, et cetera.

7:47They managed to insulate them from all the worries. But in terms of the staff, they were working extra hours despite not being paid and missing mortgage payments missing rent payments and there were there were like there were emergency funds but being handed out by the sporters trust it's ridiculous when you think about it a team that's in the second tier of english football it's such a huge league the championship you know watch all over the world and and players were and sorry and staff were relying on handouts from from fans and and from from emergency funds within the club as well. It's just, you know, it was a real sorry state of affairs.

8:29You'd even get people going into the club shop and handing food parcels to work there. I mean, it just wasn't the right way to run a football club. And that's why there was so much relief when they went into administration on Friday. Yeah, relief indeed. A remarkable situation. We're going to come back to talk about Pedersen and some of the playing staff and the reality of what's going to happen on the pitch. But off it then, Chancery gone, administrators in, but the club needs a new owner. So where are we at now? We're recording this podcast on Tuesday afternoon. Obviously, it's an often quick developing situation, but just lay out for listeners where we're at now and what the process might look like in the coming days and weeks.

9:11Right. So the administrators are listening to interested parties now. You've got to fill in a form. Yeah, it's very kind of basic, really. you know you've done yours already mine all right yeah i've screamed on the back of the settee i found a few pennies you know so fill in a form submit it to them talk to the uh you got to have proof of funds and you've got to have a valuation of the club like what you think you're going to bid for it just to start him you know start sort of like a base to start off with so then the the administrators will look at all those bids this week and they were saying that by friday they will have a short list basically that they'll have whittled it down to from what i was told there'll be there's four or five interested parties that are the the real deal uh they've had some uh less authentic bidders you know someone rang up that the administrator was saying yes that one of the someone rang up purporting to be a shake but he was actually had a an english number and sounded like he was a Sheffield United fan.

10:16So that was a cheap, you know, fair play. It was quite funny. Got to admire the creativity of some football fans, haven't you, sometimes? So that will be, we'll have a clearer picture by the end of the week. Who are the front runners? I say that there's a lot of confidentiality involved in this as well, but we certainly know, or I certainly know from conversations with the administrators that most of the interested parties either from the USA or from the UK. So I think we'll see. It probably will down to like three or four by the end of the week. And then they get invited to make bids for the club.

10:53So it'll be interesting to see how much they get. I reckon maybe 15, 20 million, something like that. Yeah. I was just going to ask you about the evaluation because, again, for listeners who know the club well and maybe don't, they've got quite an old crumbling stadium, a great stadium, a historic stadium that lots of fans, they want to say they've been to Hillsborough, but it's seen better days. And I say that as a fan who went there a couple of years ago myself. Would you say that that figure is there? And in terms of the potential then, if a big owner from the States is looking at it, do the administrators see a club with potential once all the many, many issues are solved?

11:33Yeah, I think it is a club with huge potential. and I'm saying that from a journalistic perspective, from a balanced perspective, it is, there's so much potential there. You've got 17 ,000 season ticket holders who have been paying ridiculous amounts for season tickets over the last few years. You're talking£600,£700, which is right at the top end of the market. You've got a huge stadium. It still holds, I think it's£35 ,000, although that has been reduced over the last few years and it's just such a huge part of the community there so it is it's a real I hate to use the word sleeping giant but you know it does have a huge potential to be another big hitter once again a lot of people particularly younger generations don't even think Sheffield Wednesday is a big club they don't even know that they were a Premier League club because it was, you know, 20, 25 years ago now, but they had a really long and successful run in the Premier League.

12:39You know, I was there. I used to go watch, you know, Waddle, Carboni, Di Canio, Paul, you know, all those kind of players, you know, play some really top teams in the Premier League. So, yeah, the potentials there, they're obviously, they will be getting it for a knockdown price, I think, because they are effectively buying a League One club. because with the point deduction, they're pretty much relegated. And I know we're going to come on to it, but the strength of the squad's not great either. So they are buying what is in effect a League One club. I think the administrators will want 25, 30 for it, but they'll probably end up taking 15 to 20.

13:21So that's the ballpark we're looking at. Really interesting. Loads more still to come. We're going to take a quick break, but we'll be back with Paul Hurst on more on Sheffield Wednesday in just a sec.

13:45Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. This is an EFL Extra special show all about the situation at Sheffield Wednesday. I'm Tom Clark and I'm joined by Paul Hurst, the Times reporter, who's been all over this story and happens to be a Sheffield Wednesday fan too. Hersty, let's talk about one of the slightly more bizarre stories that's come out of this situation in the last couple of days, and it involves a pair of golden elephant statues. Tell us more. Yes, anyone who's been to Hillsborough in the last 10 years or nine years will know that there have been two golden-coloured elephants, little statues, statuettes, whatever you want to call them, next to, I don't know, I don't know, you can't see me on.

14:28he's modeling it brilliantly listeners i can i can see it all fantastically about three foot high and they have been sitting in reception or just outside reception the south stand at hillsborough and they were brought in by the owner or the ex-chairman because i think it's in entire culture that they represents uh good luck they represent wealth and power and so he brought them in and you know as he as he was entitled to but they've sort of become a symbol of the the chancery reign they were they just they stood there and i think they had to be had to be guarded by security guards at one point and then they were put inside for one match because people thought that they were going to you know there's going to be a raid there's going to someone's going to snatch them or throw them in the river down um they think they're now in storage and i was speaking to the administrator yesterday and he said that it was a possibility that they could auction these elephants off to raise their money i mean that is what the administrators are there for they want to raise as much money as possible so that the staff can be paid so yeah he said there was possibility they could go up for auction so you know keep checking ebay and you know they Mike, come on.

15:47Yeah, I was going to say Christmas is coming, Hersty. Do you want me to have a word with Alison and Gregor and get a whip round going? Get them gif wrapped. Yeah, that'd be nice. Nice to put in the dining room or something. Yeah, never know. That is definitely one of the more bizarre aspects of this story. You mentioned already in part one, some of the realities of the situation on the pitch for Henrik Pedersen and his team. Looking at the championship table, Wednesday, bottom now, minus six points after that points deduction. Norwich, the team ahead of them in 23rd place with eight points. So already a huge gap.

16:23Despite all Pedersen's qualities as a manager that you outlined earlier and that listeners can go and read in the excellent interview you did, just tell listeners what the reality is for the team on the pitch going forward with this huge, huge task to avoid relegation now. Well, the squad is essentially a League One squad. in terms of quality it's probably like mid-table League One squad because 16 of the players left in the summer and quite a few of them tore up their contracts and walked away which they were allowed to do because they'd not been paid on time for two months in a row so Pedersen was basically he had to rely on a lot of the youth players some of whom you just aren't ready you know they're sort of League Two players conference players basically who've been given a chance to play.

17:12And a few of them, or all of them, to be fair, have really put the effort in. Two or three of them have looked pretty good and have really come to the fore and look like players who are probably worth a few million. But at the same time, the depth just isn't there to sustain a year-long push of a championship. You know, it's such a hard slog, that division. At the best of times, isn't it? So to have a group of young kids with a couple of experienced players, including Barry Bannon, who's 35, who is a majestic player and still our best player by a long way and a fantastic leader, is difficult. It's impossible to stay up, especially with the points deduction that they've got.

18:01They're also under five separate transfer embargoes at the moment. ranging from a wide variety of misdeeds in financial sense. They owe money to HMRC, to other clubs, to the league as well, I think. But as soon as they're paid, which would happen under a new owner, those embargoes are lifted. Right. But they're also under a fee restriction, which basically means that they cannot pay a fee for either a transfer or a loan until the summer of 2027. So any new owner has got that to deal with. And that can't be wiped. There's nothing that a new owner could do to take that away. They can appeal that.

18:48It will be interesting to see whether a new owner, when they come in, will appeal that. So those are the cards that Pedersen's been dealt. I don't think it's cataclysmic. I do think that because he is a really good manager manager and he's got a lot of experience um within the red bull group and he used to he he's he's visited chelsea a lot when he was um when he was learning to when he was also on an apprenticeship he's got a really fast network so he will be able to exploit that network to to bring in loans and you know they tried to do that on transfer deadline day this time they they lined up two or three players.

19:32They lined up Regan Heskey, sorry, Jaren Heskey, one of Heskey's twins from your brothers from Man City. That fell through because Wednesday didn't have the funds to sign him and to prove that they were going to pay his wages. And it was the same with Washington, a player from Chelsea that they were trying to get on loan. So I think the plan is, certainly from talking to people who are looking to take over would be to get a base of a squad in there in January and effectively start next season in January. So you've got players there who are capable of playing in the championship, but also won't mind being in League One next year and then basically start the push for promotion back to the championship in January, even though they're in the second tier.

20:22So they've got to get a load of players in January and hopefully some experienced ones as well because you've got to get the young players in there like Ernie Weaver, Pierce Charles, George Brown. They need that experience alongside and they need to be taught how to do this, that and the other if they're to reach their potential. So I think in terms of this season, it's pretty much stitched on that they'll get relegated. They're minus six points already. They will get another at least one point deduction from the EFL likely to be two. So, you know, we could be looking at a stage where they end up being minus in the 20s, you know, minus 20s.

21:05And it's like, you've got to be on title winning form to get out of that. So I think, unfortunately, that ship sailed. But I think everyone who's bidding for the club knows that and all the fans know that as well. Yeah, it's almost a kind of, almost it feels like a kind of cleansing situation for the club. And, you know, as I mentioned that fan, Lee, who got in touch, even though this very grim reality in the kind of immediate future on the pitch, there's a kind of almost, not happiness is not quite the right word, but a kind of contentment that actually things are heading in the right direction.

21:36And that's the sentiment I wanted to just finish on. You've covered them as a journalist for most of this show. Just finish with us as a fan, with your reality hat on as well, of course, but what would you like by the end of the season or by Christmas or however you want to look at it, what would you like for the next few months for your club to pan out like? It's not actually a lot, to be honest. It's just a functioning football club. That is all that we want and we need as fans because you look at what happened in the previous reign and there's absolutely no structure there to the football club.

22:13Dej van Chancer was running, he was negotiating the transfers, he was identifying the players, he was and he just that's not how to run a football he's got no history in football in football no history in you know businesses in england so we just need to have a buyer who has deep pockets um who understands the area and you know understands the the meaning of the football club respects the fans because for the last 10 years or whatever we've been made to pay ridiculous amounts like i paid 51 pounds to watches against leeds last year wow and i you know i paid four pound more than that's watches at wembley which could you in a playoff final so that tells you everything you need to know about that so just just a well-run football club you know someone who's got a director of football that's got a head of scouting that you're a technical director, someone that can maximize the commercial potential of the club.

23:20If they're spending£500 ,000 over the last few days in the club shop, then just imagine how much money they can make if in the long term they do a documentary or something like that. There's a real kind of endless possibilities there. And the bar is low. The bar has been set really low by Chancery. We just want a well-run football club that has hot water in the stands, that's got a roof that's not going to take off on the north stand because that's been subject to repairs over the last few years. We just want a club to be proud of again. And for the last nine years, for the majority of it, that's just not been the case.

24:04So there's really a sense of optimism among the fans, but it really doesn't take much to better what's preceded the next owner. So yeah, there's certainly hope that that'll happen. A club to be proud of. Absolutely. I'm sure Sheffield Wednesday fans would echo that sentiment. Indeed, all football fans would echo that sentiment. Paul Hurst, thank you very much for joining us on this special episode of The Game Podcast. If you're a Sheffield Wednesday fan or another fan of a football league club who's just come across this show because of this special episode, We do have a regular feature on this podcast looking at all three divisions in the Football League.

24:42We run that every two weeks, so make sure you check us out. But for now, thanks for listening. Paul Hurst, thank you very much again for joining me. We'll be back with the regular show on Thursday. We'll see you then.