EFL Extra: What is the best league in England?

0:04Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. This is our EFL extra show every fortnight. You've got me, Tom Clark, and the former Football League defender, Gregor Robertson, discussing the best and worst of the drama in the Championship, League One and League Two. Gregor, I think this is my favourite time in the EFL season and not just because Lincoln City on a great run. It's the end of February. Things are starting to take shape, but also there's still so much to play for. There's roughly 14 games in each league for all teams. There's still so much can happen.

0:35Let's get straight into it with a huge, huge game on Monday night the top two in the championship going head to head Coventry against Middlesbrough Middlesbrough went into this one in amazing form under Kilm Helberg but it was Coventry and Frank Lampard that got the three points what did you make of the game overall we'll talk about some of the big moments in it in a minute but was this Coventry reasserting themselves because to me going into it this felt like the pressure was all on Coventry and that Middlesbrough were the kind of team basking in a good set of form you know first of all it was just a brilliant brilliant game brilliant spectacle brilliant kind of two teams going at it but in very different ways Coventry were quite direct Middlesbrough I haven't watched them a few times in the last last couple of weeks just so good at like although they're direct it's just like a bit more kind of patient from the back and sort of incisive passing and just any time Hayden Hackney gets on the ball my god what a player but you're right I mean the pressure was all on Coventry here because they'd been on a shaky run failed to beat Oxford who are in the thick of relegation battle at home the week before and Middlesbrough had won six games in a row just seven days earlier supplanted them at the top of the table, knocked them off the perch for the first time since October so it was a huge statement win for Coventry and part of me, I thought Borough were excellent, I thought they were absolutely brilliant, the way they probed and some of the breaks in the first half, Conway's legs down the left, again Hackney just every time he gets the ball looking forward, trying to play one-twos and carry his team up the pitch, but they just didn't have quite the cutting edge that they've had in recent weeks at the top end of the pitch.

2:19On the other hand, Coventry found, reacquainted themselves with that clinical edge and the final flourish in the box that's been elusive. Had you right, hadn't scored many goals for a while and obviously got a hat trick and the goals kind of just shifted the dynamic of the game it meant that Coventry had something to hold on to you come away from it thinking just this is going to be a great run in because you know for so so much of the season we've been talking about Coventry looking like they were going to run away with it then a stumble that looked like it was going to be a collapse and then they've averted that kind of disaster in the biggest game of the season and if you're Middlesbrough on the other hand you're not going to be too down hearted about this because they've been on an incredible run and they're still right in the mix for a title push and it's going to be absolutely box office I think between now and the end of the season.

3:13Yeah we'll come on to what it means for the bigger picture in terms of the promotion race in a second but some of the individual moments in this game I thought also well we should say as well Coventry setting their stall out with the kick-off as well. I think poor Tommy Conway got buffeted and barged all over the place as he's just trying to press and harry the ball. That said everything about maybe the team talk that Frank Lampard had given his team before this game. But as much as I agree with you about Middlesbrough, I think we do have to talk about their defending for the first two goals, particularly the second goal, a long kick downfield from Rushworth, Luke Ayling allowing the ball to bounce, goalkeeper not coming, then they're arguing with each other after Haji Wright puts it in the net.

3:50But at the very top level in these moments that's what matters I mean I had no football career whatsoever but my football coach only told me one thing because I was the tall lanky teenager playing centre-back and he used to shout Tom Clark no bounces and that was my only job Tom Clark no bounces head that ball back where it came from so I agree with you Middlesbrough are great but what do you think as a former defender at this level about both two goals because I thought they were quite poor yeah I know you could say that I mean it's Luke Ealing on both both instances and Luke Ealing has been great and you know I watched the game against Sheffield United seven days earlier and the way he can step out from the back four, carry the ball forward, carry his team forward up the pitches.

4:31All the players seem able to rotate and step forward. They're all very forward thinking and that's a big strength. But we saw on the other hand that he's not really a centre half. He's someone who has been like a flying... He started off as a midfielder actually but he's been like a flying fullback in his Leeds days and now he's 34 and he's shifted inside one and he's doing a great job on the whole, but he was wrong side of Hadji Wright for the first goal. And as you say, shouldn't let the ball bounce. And even then after he let the ball bounce, he lost his bearings a little bit and kind of ran a little bit too wide instead of being inside Hadji Wright when the ball bounced again.

5:08And I think, you know, that is the kind of example I remember actually doing this once, I think when I was at Rotherham, like a bouncing ball and waiting for the keeper to come and then we hit each other and the opposition, I think it was Barnsley, nipped in and scored and he looked like an absolute fool. Yeah, that's even worse. Yeah, absolutely. That's even worse. What you want though, actually, in that situation, I wanted the goalkeeper to stay back on his line. Let me deal with it. So, you know, Ayling tried to shift the blame but I think in this instance, although the ball was bouncing in the box, he's the one who should deal with it because if they come out and, you know, to me, to you, then it's kind of shambolic.

5:49You have to say alongside him, Melanda has been an absolute Rolls Royce. I mean, a big colossal defender but really classy too on the ball. Yeah, there were two moments. Two big moments and they kind of, as I say, shifted the dynamic and the momentum and just gave Coventry an upper hand that they never really looked like they were going to give up. yeah I mean as you say lots to like about Middlesbrough of late this is just a defeat in an amazing win winning run I should say they brought in players like Samiento as well on loan in January he had a few sparks and moments in this game you wonder whether he'll be coming a bit more of an important player but just talking again then about the bigger picture there you've talked about your excitement for this title race we've got Coventry top 62 then Middlesbrough 61 then there's this little gap five points to Millwall who've been on an absolutely unbelievable run amazing in third place.

6:44Then we've got Ipswich at 54. They had a defeat and a draw just before their recent win. I should just say as well, Millwall's 56 points from 32 championship games with 16 wins is their second highest ever points tally at this stage in the campaign, behind only 1971-72 in the second tier. So just a sign of how well Alex Neal's side are doing. But what do you make of the promotion charge going forward then? There is that little bit of a gap and we'll talk about something similar in League One as well. There's a big chasing pack though, isn't there? And as I mentioned in my intro, there's a lot of games to go, you know, Millwall 56, Ipswich 54, Hall, who we'll talk about in a minute, 54.

7:23Then you've got this pack of teams, Derby, Wrexham, Preston, all on 48 points. Bristol City, you've got a good draw against Wrexham in midweek. Do you feel like those top two might pull away? We've talked so much about Ipswich. Oh, they'll come, they'll come, they'll definitely come. I'm starting to wonder whether they will. How do you think it'll play out? Yeah, I mean, look, Coventry and Middlesbrough look like the two best teams. Obviously, Coventry have had their stumble. I still think, I mean, that's which I've got a couple of games in hand, we should add, which would make it a lot tighter.

7:55And they just strengthen again in January. We still said it repeatedly all season. They have the strongest, deepest squad in the league, in the division by a mile. There's no question about that. and you're just waiting for them to really click and they kind of started to click just after the turn of the year, but had the odd stumble they lost at Sheffield United they drew with Preston at home although there were some pretty contentious decisions in that, then they went away to beat Derby which is no mean feat at the moment so I still think if anyone is going to throw a spanner in the works for Borough or Coventry it will be Episwich and that's no disservice to Millwall to still be up there in that kind of conversation is remarkable the feat Alex Neal has achieved there so far has been truly remarkable and then even Hull behind even Hull in 5th were tied on 54 points, they just refused to go away, I spent a day at Hull last week ahead of their FA Cup tie against Chelsea I was really struck by the kind of charisma and personality of Sergei Yakirovich and you see him in post-match interviews, he's a big 6 '4 Bosnian who doesn't sound any of those things but you speak in that kind of context in a post-match interview but you sit down and you speak with him you see the humour he has and you see the kind of the feeling that you can tell just by, I spent a day at the training ground, you can tell the environment he's created there is really, really positive and there's a lot of freedom he's given to a lot of very experienced championship players.

9:38I think that they aren't going away either, despite all the things I've said for a number of weeks and maybe even months about the underlying data, sort of forecasting a bit of a drop-off at some point. So that all makes for a really tantalising final 14 games. And then when you look below that, I just wrote a piece about the championship, just after watching the last couple of weeks some games watching as I said the Sheffield United Middlesbrough game was an absolute belter as well seven days before that top of the table clash I even talked about watching Derby thrash Bristol City 5-0 a couple of weeks before that just like how unpredictable and volatile it is Leicester Southampton thriller as well 4-3 what an amazing game that was a couple of weeks ago yeah and all these teams I mean Leicester they had a six point deduction and they've got their own issues.

10:34But from 6th down to 16th, 11 teams separated by six points. I mean, try and call what's going to happen between now and the end of the season amongst that. I think, as I said for a few weeks, Derby looked really good. They played such effective football. Wrexham, obviously, as you said, lost a late goal, which would have taken them above Derby into 6th against Bristol City just in midweek. What a goal, though. Great goal. check it out Max Bird's stunning volley curling off the bar an off the bar volley you can't beat that can you if you ever hit score one of them in professional football what a treat yeah and then you know even Southampton they've had a real up and down season but you just they've won four of the last five you just feel that with the resources they keep putting good runs together don't they I mean Birmingham are on an unbeaten run as well I was just going to say I watched Birmingham against Leeds at the weekend in the FA Cup and I was at that game and they were absolutely outstanding so you know i'd go down as far as 15th place sheffield united i would not write off the possibility of them making a run when just look at the resources available to them and the quality of some of the players they have in their team so it really is you know every year we get to this point you talk about this point in the season february end of february you know winter the end of winter beginning of spring and you look at the table and you go you know how does championship threw up this kind of level of excitement and you know unknown unpredictability between now and the end of the season year after year this seems even feels even tighter than normal and it's going to be brilliant so you don't you don't quite see it as like because obviously i'm thinking back to last season when you know sunderland with a slight outlier and then beat sheffield united who were probably kind of overall maybe this considered the third best team just in the finals.

12:25Sunderland obviously gone on to amazing things in the Premier League. Do you not quite see Millwall and then maybe Hull in that bracket? Do you see it as Ipswich trying to catch the top two and then everyone else being led by Millwall and Hull? Do you see Millwall and Hull, even though they've got a bit of a points cushion, you see them in that same bracket with all those teams you mentioned below them? I do, yeah, just. I think Colventry, Middlesbrough and Ipswich might well be the top three and even if they're not, I still think that that's the kind of, broadly speaking, when you look at the strength of the squads available to those teams, that's the three best teams in the division.

13:03That does not mean that Millwall and Hull do not play some really, really effective football and do not have a lot of threats, a lot of goals. I mean, Hull have scored 50 goals. You talk about McBurnie, Joe Gildhart. They've got some really, really players who are on song, on fire. and Millwall are the same. Femi Aziz is having a great season. So that's no disservice to them. But I just feel that those three teams have kind of... I'm saying it about Ipswich just because you feel it's going to happen at some point. Whereas Middlesbrough and Coventry, I think, are clearly just that one step up ahead of the rest.

13:41Very interesting. Well, if you're listening to this and you've got views on your team or any of the things Gregor Robertson has talked about, do get in touch with me, Tom.Clark, at thetimes.co.uk by the time we do another EFL show. I'm sure it'll have all changed again. Gregor, let's just take a quick look near the bottom of the table as well. I should just say, in that pack of teams chasing a playoff place, we've got Watford, who've made the change of manager since we last recorded a show, with Ed Still, brother of Will, in the hot seat. Just very quickly from you on this one, we didn't see this coming.

14:10Of all the many millions of managers that Watford could have picked, and they have picked millions of them over the years, we maybe didn't see Ed Still, brother of Will, coming in. No, I mean, you see still appointed Watford boss, you go, oh crikey, he's back in a job already, and they, oh no, it's his brother Right, okay, I think a lot of our fans were feeling the same with this one Obviously they come from strikingly similar backgrounds, it shouldn't be that surprising perhaps He assisted his brother at Lenz in Ligue 1 Similar paths from analyst to coach to head coach, although he's only got 80 games as a head coach in Belgium under his belt so yeah it seems to be one that has come through an agent that is like a mutual contact between Watford's hierarchy and Ed Still and one of his former clubs that happens sometimes in football but it's quite a punt and Watford have some really talented players and they've still got a chance of doing something between now and the season, the three points off Derby in sixth, although Watford were sixth places back in 12th.

15:25That's how tight it is. So, yeah, very interesting one. He's kind of spoken a lot about the way he wants his team to look, but actually not kind of, you know, not like preaching, talking about dogmas. It's about trying to win, first and foremost, before the Preston game, which they drew to all everything is about putting together a game plan to win that game we're not going to be playing the ball slowly around the back we're going to be fast and forward and doing what it takes to win football matches so that kind of that was the right tone to strike but I think he probably in truth has some convincing to do to work for supporters Yeah I'm sure it would be fascinating to see how it pans out to the end of the season there's some big teams down the bottom Gregor You mentioned Leicester City already, that six points deduction, hitting them hard.

16:17They are in the relegation places just ahead of Oxford United. West Brom, Eric Ramsey still struggling in life in charge at West Brom. Albion have failed to score in 11 championship games this season, but they've actually failed to find the back of the net in the last four of the past six league outings. It's not been a great start to life in the championship for Eric Ramsey since he took over. probably compounded by the fact that Michael O 'Neill has gone in at Blackburn and got a win in his first game he'll be splitting that job with Northern Ireland duties just quickly Gregor what do you make of this situation at the bottom of the table we should say as well Sheffield Wednesday still having a torrid time both on and off the pitch make sure you check out Paul Hurt's excellent inside track on all the negotiations that are going on behind the scenes to try and find them a new owner that's on the Times website now but Gregor in terms of that relegation picture there's some huge teams down there aren't there there certainly are I mean it's just extraordinary that Leicester City could well be celebrating I say celebrating the 10 year anniversary of their Premier League title win by dropping into League One and clearly there are other circumstances at play that you know this is a kind of historic profit and sustainability rules breach punishment it's taken a couple of years to come to be dished out because they were in the Premier League but when you take all that out of the equation it's still remarkable that this group of players are languishing so far down the table and the game against Southampton kind of summed up their season they just seem to have a really soft soft kind of underbelly and despite all the talent on show they're not able to get over the line I mean Fatahou is one of the best players in the division and scored some absolute worldies this season.

18:10Mavididi's another who on his day is almost unplayable. But they're just a club that's kind of in a downward spiral. And the hope is whoever comes in, it looks like it could well be Gary Rowett. Yeah. Although it's been dragged out, hasn't it? That felt like a week ago that people were saying, oh, it's going to be Gary Rowett. And you think, well, if it's going to be Gary Rowett, why hasn't it been Gary Rowett yet? yeah there are question marks about it but I think he was linked with Blackburn as well and then it seemed that he was maybe holding out for the Leicester opportunity and yeah I'm not sure why it's taken so long but they need to get someone in because you know they're kind of I don't know, they look rudderless really and Gary Rout has a lot of experience it would be a strange scenario to see the manager who was recently let go by Oxford who are below Leicester on the table jumping up to, well, stepping in to fill the breach at Leicester City a few couple of months later.

19:13But he's an experienced man at the level and it's going to need must. Yeah, really interesting to see how it pans out in the next couple of weeks. As I've already mentioned, by the time we next do an EFL show, it could be all change. Time for a quick break, but there's loads more still to come as we delve into League One and League Two. Don't go anywhere. We'll be back in just a second.

19:44Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. This is our EFL Extra Show with me, Tom Clark, and the former football league legend, Gregor Robertson. Gregor, let's get stuck straight into League One. We're recording this. I'm back in the News UK offices in London, but I'm fresh off the train after watching Lincoln City beat Northampton 4-0 last night to cement our place in second. It really is remarkable. But just to counter your loving for the championship that we've been hearing about in that first half of the show and that listeners can read on the Times website, I cannot believe you've forgotten your roots.

20:19Like, look, I know you played at the second tier, but you played League One. That was your home, really. And you've forgotten. You've forgotten the league that made you. Listen, this is where the party's at. This is where the real drama is. you've got amazing scenes. You've got teams, not just like Lincoln, but you've got Stevenage still competing for a playoff place. Bradforders still have hopes of automatic promotion. And you've got huge teams in there who want to get back up to the championship. Cardiff, Bolton, Stockport, Huddersfield, Reading, Luton, who of course were in the Premier League very recently.

20:49Peterborough, who were always up there. Plymouth, who were in the championship last season. Wickham as well. This is where the party's at. I'm sorry. I love the championship. It's absolutely great. But when it comes to this show, the championship's where all the elitists are, mate. You've forgotten your roots. What's going on? Championship elitist okay I know we're on the EFL podcast right now in the context of this show yes this basically what I'm saying is I'm pitching you as the Alison Rudd and Martin Samuel of this show the EFL show you've forgotten your roots mate that's all I'm saying but listen it is a remarkable thing yeah no listen there's a big part of me that agrees with you like there's an argument that League One is kind of is even more evenly spread and competitive year after year after year because I referenced in the piece that Premier League parachute payments have begun to look like they are breaking the second tier this season has been different which has been refreshing Ipswich are the only team in the top six although Southampton could still make the top six who are really in the conversation having been one of the relegated teams from the Premier League last season that was always a big fear and that did feel like in recent seasons, we've seen so many teams yo-yo, that that was a big threat to the second tier as well as the kind of integrity of the Premier League.

22:09That's not really been quite as pronounced in League One and there's still a case of there have been so many big clubs so many clubs who feel that they belong above the level that it makes it wildly competitive and it also is just as sort of mental economically though Tom we have to admit that because you're seeing some of the losses that have been posted by some of these clubs recently and the upward drag of having a club like Cardiff with you know a huge stadium huge resources comparatively a budget of I don't know the best part of 20 million and a club like Lincoln trying to compete with them with a budget that's in the bottom bottom quarter or a third of the division so absolutely yeah yeah all these things do make it fascinating, but it's arguably kind of just as wild economically as well.

23:07Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, I've had conversations with people who work at clubs at League One level and, you know, some that we would consider widely in the, you know, in the media to be, quotes, well-run clubs. And they say, yeah, I mean, that's very nice of you to say, Tom, that you journalists saying we're well-run, but we're operating at a loss as well. You know, it's widely kind of accepted that, oh, a couple million quid loss is good. Yeah. You know, that's good. We're heading into Martin Samuel profit and sustainability territory here, but you're right to say that that upward drag and absolute desperation to get to the championship means that clubs like Cardiff and Luton, who've obviously got championship drag down payments in their wage structure as well, but clubs like Huddersfield, Bolton, Stockport are paying a lot of money in wages for players.

23:55I know that players have left Lincoln for some of those clubs and doubled their wages I mean you tell me that's not you wouldn't double your wages at League One level would you? You might earn a bit more money and maybe get a longer contract but you wouldn't be doubling your wages so as you say that is an important factor as well but it does make it all the more dramatic when we get back to the football and the drama at the top of the table I should just say it's not actually just all the big clubs Burton Albion just posted an 8.3 million loss for a season that they finished, I think it was 19 to 20, just above the relegation zone.

24:29They just survived. Gary Boyer, we spoke about it many times, it's a bit of a minor miracle. And he lost 8.3 million in that season, like in League One. Yeah. So the strain is felt by some of these smaller clubs too. I mean, that's crazy. That was some mismanagement, clearly. But you do have to lose a lot of money just to be able to compete at this level when you have clubs of the stature that you've just mentioned, you know, scrapping out to get back into the second tier. Yep, absolutely. Which leads us nicely on to one of the more remarkable stories in the Football League this season. Even you must agree, Lincoln City's currently sitting second in the League One table.

25:10I can't believe it, genuinely. And I'm going to try and keep professional about this, but it is absolutely remarkable what Michael Scubala and the club have done in terms of putting them in this position in second in the table. Because when we talk about all those big clubs around us and this is where a lot of my pessimism from previous shows and that will continue till the end of the season comes from because we're not meant to be there are we? Like if you had to say from the outside and it's not just us Lincoln probably Bradford and Stevenage in that top 10, 12 when you look at the League One table those clubs are not really meant to be there when it comes to promotion time are they?

25:44No I mean when we talk about the financials that we've just been discussing but what Lincoln I've done I interviewed Michael Scaballa not so long ago they look at where the phrase he kept using was like where can we spread our chips to get the biggest returns and they've done that really intelligently, they're one of these quite rare examples of very well run intelligent, sort of thoughtful football clubs and they're reaping the rewards despite all the odds stacked against them and looking at they're looking at your run since early December. It's extraordinary, really extraordinary. You've come up against...

26:25I mean, that's the question I want to ask you now is, in this recent run, you've come up against all the best teams in the division. Who do you see emerging from the pack below? Because it's still pretty tight in League One as well to potentially make it into the top six. Yeah, it's interesting. I was discussing this with a couple of fans at the game last night, and I think this is probably true. I've seen a lot of home games, obviously, being a season ticket holder. And I think it is true now that teams are quite wary of us, which is a respect as well. So I think they play slightly differently away from home at our ground than they do when they're at home and we go to them, which I think we've seen.

27:07We're 2-0 up at Blackpool, dropped two points, drew 2-2. Same at Luton, we went 2-0 up, and Jack Wilsh's side came back in the game. but I'd say Stockport and I think Bolton I think Cardiff are the best team in the league we should say as well as much as we're praising Lincoln and deservedly so Cardiff have been on an amazing run as well you talk about since December both teams Cardiff and Lincoln's record since the 15th of November Cardiff's played 18 won 13 drawn 4 lost 1 to Lincoln at Lincoln 43 points Lincoln's record since that same date played 17 won 12 drawn 4 lost 1 a 3-2 defeat at Wickham in November 40 points so they have both both Cardiff and Lincoln have been on incredible runs um coming back to your question I think unlike last season where we had a little bit of a charge for the playoffs but didn't quite make it there were lots of games where and I said it on this show I saw us lose again at home to Birmingham I saw us lose at home to Wickham and I was like wow these guys are way better than us you know I think I came on this podcast and said Birmingham are already a championship side um but it is really tight I don't think there's much to choose between from those teams behind us.

28:16I expected, I saw us play Bolton on Saturday, one-all draw. I was worried about it. Bolton had made some good signings in January. Stephen Schumacher's a good manager at League One level. He'd be expected to get them out of this division. And they, again, came and sat. We pressed them really well. We had the better chances. We just didn't make it 2-0. And they got an equaliser, which probably on the balance of play was about fair. But it wasn't one of those where I was coming away going, you know, Christ, Bolton are amazing. They're going to come. They did it again last night against Reading, who have been on a great run.

28:49Jack Marriott has been in the goals as well. But yeah, it's all much of a muchness and there's no teams I've seen us play. Huddersfield, Stockport, as you say, we beat Bradford, Bolton, Luton, we got a draw against. I feel like probably what Cardiff and Lincoln have maybe got going for them is that all these teams will start taking points off each other. You know, as I say, we saw it last night with Bolton and Reading drawing one all. so it's so hard to call there's not a team that I'm like wow they look amazing Stockport have got big big name players at this level Oliver Norwood, Ben Osborne, Jack Diamond's very good at this level they've got Louis Barry back can they get him firing Huddersfield has spent a lot of money Alfie May is probably a championship striker playing in League One, Bolton as I said so it's about whether those teams like you mentioned with Ipswich in the championship finally it clicks Will it click?

29:41Will they gel? Will these star players and big managers get them together and get it working and get a run going? That's where I think it comes down to. One more question then. I've just been talking about how in the Championship you can throw a blanket over 11 teams from 6th down to 16th. Where would you draw the line in League 1 as the potential playoff candidates? Because you look at Plymouth and Peterborough's runs. These are two teams who, well, Peterborough have changed their manager. Plymouth's manager Tom Cleverley was under enormous pressure earlier in the season. they were both looking in grave danger of relegation and now they're 11th and 12th and 6th and 5 points respectively off Huddersfield and 6th so do you think that even teams as far down as 12th could make a late run for it?

30:34Yeah I'd go down to Plymouth I think Plymouth, I saw them early in the season and we beat them again at Lincoln but it was like you could tell they had something there and that's why I'm quite pleased for Tom Cleverley that he has kept his job because I think he's proved that they had something going they had some really bad runs they had some really bad results they lost lots of games by one goal um but I think I would go down to them Peterborough they always do it Peterborough had a shocking start to the season but we always talk about it Peterborough are always in contention for League One promotion Wickham as well they've got good players as have Luton Reading would be the one that start to look with their recent run only one defeat in the last six games and without a 96 minute equaliser are from Bolton last night.

31:16They would have got a third win on the spin and they would have been level on points with Huddersfield. So they're the one that I'd be looking at and thinking, are they going to push their way in there? But I think it then becomes, as I said just a minute ago, they're all going to take points off each other. But yeah, I would go down to Plymouth, but it's just when you look at that gap, Cardiff 69, Lincoln 65, it's then eight points to Bolton in third. Yep. You know, I'm obviously biased and pessimistic in that I'm going, oh my gosh, they were on amazing form. Also, I'm pessimistic. and think it'll all fall away horribly as it did a couple of years ago during the COVID era.

31:50Because the thing is, Lincoln have been... It did, it did. And, you know, listeners are probably rolling their eyes now. But we were in this position before. We got a few injuries in February and March and we fell into the playoffs and lost the playoff final to Blackpool that year. That could still happen. That could still happen because of what I said. Bolton, Stockport and Huddersfield and maybe Reading have all got very, very good players at League One level. lots of them have made changes this season in terms of both management and playing style staff sorry can they get it together and charge and get a run going and then it'll be about can Cardiff and Lincoln hold them off so I'm going to throw back to you now and say what would you what would you kind of make that pick out of those teams then that top 12 would you agree with me?

32:36Yeah I maybe have more faith in you and Lincoln actually Tom because they look relentless and whenever you watch the extended highlights and their share of chances is always worldly in your favour. You mentioned Plymouth were in a good run, you went to Plymouth and beat them 4-1 not so long ago. Great defensively, as I said, you've played a lot of the best teams in the division in the last few weeks and if not beaten them all, then not lost. I have faith that you can see it over the line but we'll be here to cover all between the end of the season. Yeah, absolutely. And we should just say as well, looking at the bottom of the table, there are some teams down there that you maybe wouldn't expect.

33:21Gary Caldwell is back at Wigan Athletic, leaving Exeter to go back to Wigan for a second time. They are 22nd in the relegation zone. Port Vale still bottom of the table with a big gap above them. I should say Northampton, who we beat last night, and yes, we're in a good run of form. I'd be worried about Northampton. They had a man sent off for a bad challenge early in the second half. So that's never going to help you when you're playing one of the top teams away from home. But the set-up, I saw, so for example, we played Burton, Albion, who are just above them. We often praise Gary Bowyer on this show.

33:58And we saw Burton came to Lincoln, probably could have got a draw. Might have even nicked it because you see the way they're playing and it's very effective. And yes, home fans go, oh, they're time-wasting and da-da-da. I don't care about that. you do what you need to do. With Northampton, there was no forward thrust. Burton, when they got the ball, they'd try and do something with it. Northampton, there was nothing there from Kevin Nolan's side. And the first two goals were in absolute shambles. Yeah, absolutely shocking as well. So I'd be worried about that. They went to Exeter the game before us and got a point, but they didn't have a shot on target.

34:30That would be a worry for me. And Leighton Orient as well. Obviously, we've got a colleague at the Times who supports Leighton Orient, but he is very worried about the downward momentum of their form this season. What about that bottom of the table then? Who would you be looking at? We always talk about Burton Albion. I think they'll be safe. We're worried about Northampton. Wigan have made the change. Will that make a difference? Leighton Orient seem to be just dropping down and down and down. Where do you see it going? I agree with you. I'd be very worried about Leighton Orient. We spoke on the last show about the terrible luck with signing a goalkeeper on loan who broke his ankle in the warm-up, watched the highlights of this game, their defeat to Plymouth, and Uluweyemi threw a goal in and then was subbed off in the 75th minute.

35:26Another goalkeeper came on and a player shot from the halfway line and the goalkeeper slipped and very nearly threw it in as well. they've had terrible fortune with goalkeepers this season and Richie Willans has tried everything to change the players to change the squad and it feels like the players aren't really playing for him anymore now so I would be very worried about Leon Orient but I agree with you about Burton I've seen enough from them to suggest that they'll be able to pull to safety once again yeah let's finish with a look at the league two then lots of different strands to talk about here it's a bit of a bumper show because as I said this is the most wonderful time of the year to be a football league fan because it's incredibly exciting there's still so much to play for Bromley still an amazing unbeaten run they're on at the top of the league two table 64 points Swindon just behind them Cambridge as well they've been on an amazing run with just like one defeat in the last six games.

36:27MK Dons have also been on a great run there in fourth. But I wanted to talk about, Gregor, it feels like I wonder if there are any Walsall fans who listen to this show, can you please get in touch with me, Tom.Clark, at the Times? Because they have been a bit of an obsession, haven't they, for us, Gregor, for this last 18 months, just because it is one of the most remarkable things we've ever seen. Last season, as you well know, listeners, flying high at the top of the table, all fell apart in the second half of the season. This season, again, they were up there at the turn of the year, and it's just been the same thing.

36:57Lost the last two, drew the three previous games before that. And then we had a remarkable situation, didn't we? Just this weekend, Walsall head coach forced to comment about a statement from the club's board just before one of the recent games where they put out a statement talking about the stuttering promotion challenge, saying they are aware of the urgency to improve results. I mean, how on any level is that helpful to your manager or your team when the board is coming out and making these statements and the manager has to respond to it on local radio i couldn't quite believe it when i saw this gregor how did they think this is going to help when everyone is already talking about oh god it's happening again yeah i mean it's certainly not going to help that's that's the first thing to say i think you know i saw the the co-chairman ben ben boycott subsequently released a a kind of video on the on the club's website a kind of sit-down interview and he was saying that basically trying to relate to the fans that they recognise that this has become a trend for a couple of seasons now kind of putting yourselves in such a positive position and then for some reason what looks like it's going to be a collapse and clearly they're tearing their hair out trying to trying to pinpoint why exactly that's happening personally I have a lot of sympathy for Matt Sadler because I think actually he's shown himself to be a really smart young young head coach he he kind of plays really really really kind of effective football like very low possession quite direct scored a lot of goals most of the time and last season's collapse would would be enough to kind of, you know, I don't know, ruin some careers.

38:46But he kind of knuckled down and built a new squad again. And they started the season brilliantly. And, you know, again, they're a team that you look at the kind of underlying data and they're always on a bit of a knife edge. There's always a feeling that it's quite kind of low margin wins a lot of the time. And that's possibly their issue. they really look comfortable when they're winning games so I think really there's no doubt the statement has done no help done no help whatsoever but I think it's one win in nine games and they've dropped down to ninth it's looking like it's happening again and I think the next thing is you're wondering if it's just a precursor to making a change and I think probably there's so much noise from within the fan base that they want that to happen that this is a way of trying to appease them for a little while and we'll see whether that lasts or not.

39:49Yeah, as I always say on this show, two weeks is a really, really long time in the Football League so we'll see what the latest with Walsall is on the next show. But just Gregor, looking at that top half, we've done it with the previous two leagues as well. As I say, Bromley away clear at the top of the table, six points between them and mk dons in fourth that would put them into the playoffs of course just three points uh between them and swindon in second cambridge as well some other teams in there some of your former clubs chesterfield and grimsby have both been on great runs as well how do you see the kind of promotion charge shaping up with with full acknowledgement that maybe league two as much as we've talked about the joy of the championship and league one is maybe the hardest to call because at this stage of the season that's when desperation comes in and as we'll talk about in a minute the teams at the bottom start winning as well how do you see the top panning at?

40:36Oh, it's a tough one. Just when you think Salford might be about to finally turn a corner and get over the line and possibly this could be the year. Again, they've lost three of the last four. They lost to Newport. We're going to come on to Carl Robinson saying it's the worst result of his time as a manager there. I still think that they're in better shape than they have been for a number of years. But you're right, you look through. Notts County, Chesterfield, MK Dons, you would have thought they were a guarantee to be in the playoffs at the start of the season. Cambridge have probably surpassed their own expectations and Swindon after the little blip of responded again they won four of their last five and after that rant by Ian Holloway as well, it's not derailed them.

41:26That's hugely impressive. I think when you look outside the current top seven And I think Grimsby, they've got two or three games in hand on a lot of teams because they've had two really, really good cup runs. The state of their pitch might not help. Which Walsall do as well. Walsall do as well, we should say, as well, if Walsall can get their act together. True. And you always think that, you always wonder whether Colchester can, and another team, whether they can kind of click. They've had really positive runs earlier in the season. You wonder whether they can click into gear and make a run for the playoffs too.

41:59but I actually feel like a lot of the teams, probably barring Grimsby, who are in there are the ones that you would have called to be in there at the start of the season. So possibly a little bit more predictable, as it stands, than it has been in previous seasons. Yeah, let's finish with a look at the bottom then. I mentioned it there and you've talked about Newport's a very impressive win and much needed win in this midweek round of matches against Salford. But there's loads of teams down there that suddenly found a little bit of form. We were starting to think a few weeks ago that maybe Newport, Harrogate and a few others were getting cut adrift, but it's really, really tight again.

42:33We should say as well, Shrewsbury, who made the managerial change of getting rid of Michael Appleton, have won the last three on the spin. That gives them a bit of breathing space in 19th. But as I say, Harrogate have got two wins and a draw from the last three, and Christian Fuchs has finally got that win at Newport. How do you see the bottom panning out over the next couple of weeks? God knows, I mean, you're right. That's the hardest question of this entire show, I think, the bottom of League Two. it's absolutely crackers all these teams are found form all of a sudden yeah I mean you thought Newport were dead and buried and they hadn't scored a goal in seven hours before this and then they went into 3-0 lead against Salford at Salford I mean where did that come from there was a good moment in lots of I don't know whether you ever get this maybe probably don't in the press box but when you're in the stands as a fan you've always got the people who've done the backers you know accumulators and stuff and they're sat there and you know because we were 4-0 up for the last 10 minutes people are sat there and i heard three people go christ's sake newport have beaten salford for god's sake they completely bet buster coupon buster anyway sorry yeah no i mean that's that was a definitely a coupon buster but same with harrogate i mean we spoke about them uh if not in the last show of the show before you know they're getting into approaching and i think they they made it to 20 games without a win uh you know simon weaver uh whose his dad owns the club uh safest job in football but they've won two of the last three beating Cambridge and then beating Barrow who also have had real turmoil they're on to the third manager of the season they started with Andy Wing then turned to Paul Gallagher actually a former Scotland under 21s team mate of mine very good striker with Blackburn back in the day you might remember he lasted five games, five defeats and they've turned the page again to Dino Mamria so he got off to a good start with a win against Colchester but then lost to Harrogate in a really really important game so you now look at Newport on 24 points, Harrogate on 25 points Bristol Rovers have lost the last three on 27 three teams on 27, Barrow, Crawley and Bristol Rovers even the relegation battle in League 2 looks fascinating and Shrewsbury as you said again where did that come from?

44:53They looked dead and buried and I've won three in a row and you know amazing turnaround amazing turnaround when you think about they hired somebody who was manager of Brackley Brackley Town and yeah he had a connection Cowan had a connection to the club he used to play there but no one would have envisaged this and there were three wins at home as well so really that that kind of will do wonders for the kind of spirit and connection between players and home crowd between now and the end of the season. Yeah, there you go, listeners. Gregor Robertson answering the impossible questions, sort of, kind of, somewhere in there, I think so.

45:36But there is loads and more football still to come, as I mentioned in that intro, but a jam-packed show from the EFL Extra. We'll leave it there. Gregor Robertson, thank you very much for joining me, as always. Thank you, too, for listening. We will be back with another EFL Extra show very soon. Just before we go, not from the EFL, from the non-league just in case you wanted some extra bonkers football from outside the top flight. Go and check out Rochdale's penalty against Scunthorpe. I'll say no more, listeners. Just go and have a look at it. One of the most but there are things you'll see on a football pitch this season.

46:04We will be back with that regular show on Thursday and an EFL Extra very soon. We'll see you then.