England greats and Manchester City punishment

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1:55Tony Cascarino: Hello and welcome to The Game, a football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. Well, thank God those three weeks are over. England score goals for fun. Harry Kane and Jude Bellingham further their case as two of the nation's greatest players. Lionel Messi bows out, Cristiano Ronaldo straps off and Manchester City continue their attempt to appeal against the guilty verdict for breaching Premier League financial rules. International breaks a boring... On today's show, we'll discuss all of that and the return of Premier League action. And joining me, Tom Clarke, to do so, we have the chief correspondent for The Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the former Millwall and Marseille striker, Tony Cascarino, and the former footballer.

2:35Tony Cascarino: Turned journalist, Gregor Robertson, is alongside me, as usual. Thoughts on that gag, Gregor? Got a little laugh out of you there? That's the capital letters on the teleprompter. Exactly. I'm just reminding myself that If you're going to do it, you've got to go for it, haven't you? Go big, yeah. As I mentioned, though, we've got loads and loads to get into, and we will be talking about the Premier League, the return of the Premier League, some of those big games this weekend. But I thought we should wrap up with England. A straightforward win against Czech Republic at Wembley. Tom Allnut, who was obviously on this show plenty of times, he was part of the Times team at Wembley reporting for us, and he sent this voice note with some thoughts at full time.

3:09Tony Cascarino: Hi, guys. Yeah, this was never going to be, I don't think, the kind of electric scintillating performance that we saw in the 7-0 win against Croatia. But there just seems to be a certain swagger about this team at the moment, which I think is not to be underestimated when you think at the start of this international break, there was still a lot of questions about how the team had played, when it really mattered at the World Cup, how Tuchel had managed the team as well and around his decisions particularly. but I think you know two and a half weeks on it feels like that has been rightly or wrongly for now consigned to to history and and everyone is feeling a lot more optimistic and I think this performance really kind of rubber stamped that I think England were good here some things we already knew that Kane is a magnificent player that Jude Bellingham is a generational talent that Trent Alexander-Arnold is fantastic going forward and he showed some some real moments where you think yeah that's why he you know plays for Real Madrid it's just something about Alexander Arnold and what struck me watching live is just how much how much the England players give him the ball you know I mean you think fringe players who kind of come in and out of the England team like Alexander Arnold is under Tuchel you know those players don't often form such a central part of the play of the team but whenever England get the ball they look for him you know whenever England's best attacks happened they came down the right when England had a free kick you know 30 yards out in the first 15 minutes Belliam could have taken it Kane could have taken it but they let Alexander-Arnold take it you know there's just a real there's such a clear respect and admiration I think for for what Alexander-Arnold can do on the ball but clearly you know Tuchel prioritizes other things in in his right back and I think that's always going to be the case but Alexander Arnold I think has shown what he can do even if it's as a substitute when England need a goal or need more creativity.

5:03Tony Cascarino: Kwanza played at centre-back for the first time and looked pretty assured albeit on a night when he wasn't really tested. Overall I think a really positive night for England on what has been a pretty encouraging international break overall. A couple of points made by Tom there. He obviously mentioned the brilliance of Harry Kane and Jude Bellingham which we'll come on to in a second and putting that in some context but I thought his point about Trent Alexander-Arnold was a really interesting one. He made it on the website as well, so I was pleased he made it in this voice note because it gives us a good discussion.

5:31Tony Cascarino: Martin, that idea that he could be seen as an England fringe player brought into this squad, but actually, as Tom said, clearly his peers and everyone recognise him as a supreme talent because they always give him the ball.

5:43Martin Samuel: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, the only person that Trent Alexander-Arnold doesn't seem to impress is Thomas Tuchel, who has played him in the two games against the Czechs. seem to be withholding his praise a little bit. Yeah, very much. And even after this game as well. So you wonder if Rhys James is fit for the next one, whether Rhys James then comes in ahead of him. Kwanzaa is definitely ahead of him. I don't understand it. Trent Alexander-Arnold. He'd be your right starting right back. He'd be my starting right back now. Yeah, he would be my starting right back.

6:18Tony Cascarino: Tony Greger, would you agree with that? Yeah, just also, he lauded Lewis Hall as well and the kind of the verticality and the dynamism and all that kind of stuff. And he's praised Nico O 'Reilly for being someone who can step into, you know, step into midfield and offer that balance. Like Trent can do that one. I know he's not. And he also said Trent's not that. He's not the vertical runner. He's not a powerful runner. He's not that. That's not what he's going to bring to the team. And he needs to find a way, if he's playing, of getting a kind of good relationship with Saka. But I don't know. He seems to be finding a way to, not criticise him, but to withhold praise rather than giving it when clearly everyone saw the proof in the pudding.

6:57Tony Cascarino: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I was listening to you make that point about Hall and thinking about Trent and Andy Robertson at Liverpool. And that was the whole point of it. They dovetailed nicely, weren't they? Because they were different fullbacks. They did the opposite thing on opposite flanks. One of them bombed up and down and ran loads and stuck to the wing and the other one floated around. I always think of players like Trent when they're so gifted. And it's a bit like Odell as a midfielder. we can be so gifted that people start looking at things you can't do. And, you know, his ability on the ball is second to none.

7:27Tony Cascarino: He's like an incredible midfielder. He's done things that most players will go, can you believe Trent done that? Yeah. You know, he can do that, but he doesn't guarantee him a spot in the team because of the way football's structured with teams. And, you know, are you going to be prepared to take a risk? Because the risk is how good is he defending against some of the best left wingers in the world? Are you going to get punished for that? That's the fear. It's the fear that Gareth Southgate had with Trent. They're afraid of what would happen against one of the best wingers in the world.

7:57Martin Samuel: When Lionel Messi got the ball and we just scored two goals from the flank that time. So, he's not being kept out of the team by the equivalent of Ashley Cole.

8:08Tony Cascarino: No.

8:09Martin Samuel: Yeah. Do you know what I mean? That's not the choice that we've got. because the players that Tuchel has preferred to Trent Alexander-Arnold, they're good players, but we're not off the scale. It's not a slam dunk. We're not off the scale as a full-back. He's not that worse than those players as a defender. But Martin, he's worse at all.

8:31Tony Cascarino: He's played against all the best players club ever. Absolutely. He's played all against the best. When he's played for Liverpool, he's done that. It's very funny, isn't it? There was a moment late in the second half as well, I think, where he tracked back and he won a header at the back post from across. And I was going, see, he can do it. And you're kind of like, of course he can do it. He's played at the very highest level for a long time. He played in teams in the Premier League that had the best defensive record in the division, you know, made Champions League finals. Of course he can do it.

8:56Tony Cascarino: I still understand to an extent when you get to those crunch moments in the biggest games, there'd be just a little flicker of doubt in your mind. But what he offers England in an attacking sense and in a creative sense is like there's no other player like him in the world. That's the reason why England haven't won anything. Why? Because Liverpool I don't know if it's that No but England have never won anything because they've never had the or they've never played to be an attacking team even when they're winning a game. It comes down to though that you meant I think it was you mentioned it Tony risk right?

9:31Tony Cascarino: It comes down to that you're talking and England have played with a little bit more flair and daring you're seeing players in tight areas getting the ball as Matt Loughton And our colleague wrote, slightly easier to do at the autumn international break than it is to do in the summer at the end of a long, tired season. In these moments, is this what the next 18 months are going to be built around? Thinking about Argentina second half, thinking about Spain, and we've got another game against Italy.

9:57Martin Samuel: We've got better players than we showed against the best teams in the World Cup.

10:02Tony Cascarino: We've got better players than that. Trent falls into that bracket then. Oh, without a doubt. Yeah, so get him on the pitch. Very, very interesting. in terms of two of the best players that are very much on the pitch, Harry Kane and Jude Bellingham. Tony, I just wanted to ask you a question about Kane and his finishing because it was a point that's been made so many times. I couldn't do that and never make it. What I wanted to ask was in the modern world that we live in now where flair and skills and tricks and highlights reels and things, the fact that Harry Kane is so clinical and ruthless at just either one touch side foot, drop of the shoulder, bang, that's not as sexy as some of the other things.

10:38Tony Cascarino: Do you think that almost counts against him in terms of how he's viewed? Because I was watching that game and the two goals he scored, I was like, oh, Kane scored. But then you, Martin, Roy Keane said it, the hardest thing in football is putting the ball in the back of the net. He makes it look so easy that we've almost got bored of it. Yeah, and also it's not quick. You know, once you're not quick, you can be criticised because obviously you can't get behind teams. Now, the best finisher I ever played with and watched in training, I saw him as a 17-year-old when I was on trial at QPR, there was Paul Goddard and Clive Allen.

11:09Tony Cascarino: They were the reserve strikers. I remember watching them in Greenford, where the training ground was, and watching these two strikers and thinking, how good are these two? Paul Goddard and Clive. Especially Clive's finishing. Clive Allen, extraordinary. He's so like Clive Allen in his finishing. Harry Kane. Yeah, Harry Kane. Because Clive wasn't quick, but he was a fabulous finish either foot. He could literally do in training and say, bottom right-hand corner, and he'd put it in the bottom right-hand corner. He was great at doing that.

11:35Martin Samuel: So he said Clive Allen was the best finisher I ever saw.

11:38Tony Cascarino: Well, I witnessed it firsthand. And Kane is right up there with that, that you know when he gets in certain positions, either foot, he can find the bottom corners. He can beat the keeper. That's an extraordinary ton. The one when he clipped the top of the bar as well, it was like so, there was no room to work in. He had no back lift and he just manipulated the shot. He hit the ball with the only part of the foot that could get the power and the trajectory. And that was so close to me. I think one of the things I enjoy about Harry Kane is the trajectory of his career. We've got a colleague who I mention on this podcast quite a lot, Glenn, who's one of the senior production journalists.

12:12Tony Cascarino: He's a Tottenham fan and he's very self-deprecating to the point where he often brings up a tweet he posted as a Tottenham fan about Harry Kane saying, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think this Harry Kane kid is going to make it. He obviously then became very strong backer of Kane when he was at Tottenham. But I was saying to him this morning, to be honest, I think quite a lot of Tottenham fans thought that. and you think back, you had the loan spells, everyone was going,

12:36Martin Samuel: from where he was going, and later on, and Norwich, and Millwall, and yeah,

12:41Tony Cascarino: absolutely. It's got that incredible ability as well, of a short back lift, but Greg, I was sort of telling you, you know, Andy Cole's biggest strength as a striker was that quick, short back lift, hit it, and get power. Well, let's put Kane in a little bit of context then, with you, Martin, because after the game, I thought it was quite striking. One of the nice things that we've seen in this England year, if we like, is the relationship with Jude Bellingham, and Harry Kane. No one's a bigger hype man for Harry Kane, than Jude Bellingham, it seems. And he described him after this game as England's greatest ever player.

13:08Tony Cascarino: Obviously, Jude Bellingham's only 23, so maybe his sample size is a little smaller than others. But Martin, I wanted to ask you about Bellingham as well and about Kane. There's lots of chat post-World Cup and in this international break about just how great they are. Where do you put them, if I could ask you, for your top five England greats that you have witnessed?

13:27Martin Samuel: That I've seen, that I've reported on. I would certainly put Paul Gascoigne in there. Yeah. And who knows, the play would have been without the injury. I would certainly put Kane in there. I would put Bellingham in there, but there's a small caveat because you've seen just a small part of his career at the moment. So if you're putting Bellingham in there, you're sort of projecting a bit on what you expect to see in the coming years. But I think it would seem incongruous to leave him out because he's such a talent. Obviously, I would put Wayne Rooney in there, even though with a lot of these guys, they're disappointed in major tournaments and they were part of teams that you thought could have done more.

14:10Martin Samuel: Wayne Rooney was certainly part of an England team that I thought should have won the 2004 European Championships. But then again, one of the reasons they didn't was that Wayne Rooney gets injured in the quarterfinals against Portugal. And then that leaves one place, and I haven't put a defender in there, thought about that, and Ashley Cole. but I think it's got to be a centre half because I just think that that is and I would have of the ones that I've seen I would have John Terry John Terry people

14:40Tony Cascarino: listeners will be wondering whether that's an order or is that just oh no that's not an order that's just a random thing I didn't think it was an order because there's so many guys

14:46Martin Samuel: that I've left out because I did see I didn't report on an England team with Brian Robson in it but I saw England teams with Brian Robson in it and to leave Brian Robson out seems utterly incongruous and there's several players that, you know, Ashley Cole, who I've mentioned there, you know, people that you look at and thought, this guy was a real player.

15:07Tony Cascarino: And a great for England as well. Ashley Cole, maybe unlike some of his others of that golden generation, I felt, as a kid watching them, always delivered in an England show. Yeah, absolutely. Maybe some of the others didn't.

15:17Martin Samuel: I can remember, do you want to tell you, there's just little vignettes that sort of just nudge it for me. And I saw him we were playing. It was someone that we should, England should have been beating, in Slovenia or someone like that, at a World Cup. And the guy was about to shoot. I'm giving you a toss-ups, dude. We might get on to that. Sorry, mate. Sorry. I'm sorry. Sorry, I didn't mean to step on your grief. But the guy was about to shoot. And John Terry threw himself at this thing. He attempts to, I think he attempts to clear it with his head. Yes, this is the 2010 World Cup. And it's about that much off the ground.

15:54Martin Samuel: And he throws himself head first at it. and you're thinking yeah this is what you want from a defender you want a guy that's prepared to get his teeth kicked into Rosehead let alone the ball kicked into Rosehead you know just stop a goal against Slovenia I mean that sort of thing I think do you know another thing about your list it's a very good five a side team it's a very good five a side team we're short of goalkeeper although Wayne always says that he could go and go he'd fancy himself

16:20Tony Cascarino: Wayne always fancies himself Gregor just on Jude Bellingham fascinating to hear Martin put him in that list of five I don't think many people would be that shocked by that, would they? He's a player that you have lauded for so long, having seen him as a youngster at Birmingham. Just on that idea that Martin said about him only being 23 and thinking about things like Kane's appearance record, going level with Peter Shilton, 125. Bellingham's on 60 appearances already. It's amazing, amazing stuff. I mean, there doesn't seem to be anything that suggests to Martin's slight understandable caveat that, well, we don't know where he's going.

16:55Tony Cascarino: it does feel like he's only going one way doesn't it? Yeah it would take something enormous to knock him off his trajectory and that is to be in, where King said it in the week one of the kind of all-time greats and it's extraordinary too because when you talk about players of that standing I don't put Bellingham up there in terms of talent that sounds like a crazy thing to say I put him up there in terms of his impactfulness the way he impacts games and ultimately that's the most important thing of anything. Any pitch he steps on, he's the most impactful player on it, almost always. And you'll find a way to be that.

17:34Tony Cascarino: It doesn't matter what position you play him in. You can play him, James Gearbrand, who had a really nice piece in his comparing to Zidane, that took a bit of, potentially, that took a bit of, some people thought, steady on. But it probably impacts the game as much as him, maybe not with the same grace and the kind of, as I say, the same exquisite levels of technique and skill, But he's as impactful.

17:55Martin Samuel: He's one of those guys, isn't he, that towards the end of his career, I know we're getting quite a way ahead of ourselves, he is the sort of guy that you can see moving back. You know, the way that Rudhulip, after he had the injury, could play at centre-forward or he could play at centre-half or he could play in central midfield or, you know, he moved around. And Bellingham is one of those players that you look at and think, when he's 33 or 34, you could go, I tell you what, will play a sweeper system, Jude, you know, and then you bring it out the back and then you, you know, he's that sort of player that, you know, wherever you wanted to play him, he'd be the best in that position.

18:36Tony Cascarino: Yeah, what a fascinating idea, the idea. 34-year-old Jude Bellingham won the lot just sitting at the back as a sweeper. You could see it though, couldn't you? Mentioning that, Tony, I was going to ask you for your top five England players that you played against, which I am going to do in just a second, but Gregor mentioning James' piece on Zidane, which we discussed with Alison on Monday's show, reminds me that I didn't ask you about playing with and against Zinedine Sudan, which is a great story. We mentioned it briefly on Monday. Did you come out and it's well, Tom? No, did you know that? Well worth checking out our YouTube show to see Martin Samuel's facial expression when I revealed that because he's as shocked as a lot of our listeners were on Monday.

19:16Tony Cascarino: And I didn't give you the chance to explain yourself. So tell us about when you played with Zinedine Sudan. Well, it's a testimonial. And the manager of the day was Sir Alex Ferguson because it was a goalkeeper called Pascal Almeta who played for Marseille. And it was ex-Marseille legends or, you know, association with the club. I played in that team and Fergie was our manager for the day. And he did ask me to have a word with Zidane, by the way, before the game. If he was interested. That went well then. He said, how, because you're French. I went, it was okay. And I hadn't been there that long, by the way.

19:49Tony Cascarino: And he said to me, and he said, have a word with the 10. and I didn't know, obviously, the numbers of the 10 was Zedad. And it was a short, no. Pergis said, what did he say? And I went, no. But it was quite a funny moment. Basically, you know, he was, I mean, he was, I played against him as a bulldo. Yeah. And, but yeah, but we played this testimonial game and the forward line, what a forward line this is, by the way. Me, Zedad on the left. Obviously. Cantona on the right

20:25Tony Cascarino: Cantona didn't have any boots so he's asked me what size boots he didn't have any boots he didn't have any boots what size are your boots he said I'm 11 he went I'm 10 so he went under Marseille in the stadium to get Cantona boots but that was funny Zidane set me up for a goal so he's done this sort of swivel where he's gone one way and gone the other and I remember it, I went for the dummy as well and I'm in the 18-yard box. I went the wrong way because I thought he's done it. Well, he then spread it to me. I've scored and as he comes with hugged and there's a cameraman behind, like where you are, Tom, and I've gone, I can't follow him.

21:06Tony Cascarino: I won't let him go and he's like trying to get away from me. Did you get that photo? Yeah, well, the cameraman at the time took it, but he might lock up where I am. Oh, bring it. Find it, bring it in. No, and he was... The thing that stood out for me is that he was like the silent assassin. See, Dan, he didn't say hardly anything in the dressing room. Apart from saying no to the identity. Well, yeah, but do you know what I mean? Apart from this. And you know when he had batted the chest of the Italian... Yeah, Maserati. Ended the chest and that was that side to him. You saw him in French football as well.

21:38Tony Cascarino: Every now and again, he could lose it. Well, I'm very glad I brought that back up. Sorry, Martin.

21:41Martin Samuel: I saw him play in the semi-final of the UEFA Cup for Bordeaux against Slavia Prague. I went there with George Graham. George Graham was, before the 1996 European Championships, we had George. Okay. Yeah, as scouts to do. As a newspaper columnist. As newspaper columnist. And we made different managers scouts of various teams. Back then, you could do that because there was only 16 teams in the tournament. Now, you know, you need 54 managers lined up or whatever it is. But what I do remember is we were in the stadium in Bordeaux for about five minutes of this match against Slavia Prague and George just nought to me and went, that's why Cantona can't get in the French team.

22:27Martin Samuel: That guy, that guy. He said, that's why he can't get in the French team. He said, because he's on a different level. And that was about five minutes in. And just being around Bordeaux and like that, picked up that Blackburn had a scout there. They had the scout there that night and watched that match and that was the match on which Blackburn made the bid to try to get Zindin Zidane into English football.

22:52Tony Cascarino: Very good. Well, I'm sure listeners will forgive me for returning to that topic, but I realise I hadn't asked Tony Gascarino about maybe one of his greatest achievements ever. I'm going to tell it as many times as I can. Quite right too. I do want you to find a picture though. Coming back to England, we've had Martin's top five England greats. Tony you obviously played against a lot of great England players who would be your top five that you played against yeah played against Peter Shilton purely because of my Aston Villa debut I headed a ball from a cross and I was celebrating run away celebrating he turned it around the post about 40 years old still fuming about it I remember thinking how did he save that right Shilton so Shilton definitely in the back I would go Brian Robson that Martin had mentioned Stuart Pearce I thought Stuart's been hugely underrated Actually, Cole's a tremendous left back.

23:38Tony Cascarino: Stuart weren't far. I mean, there's a lot to choose from. Maybe that's fairer way of putting it. Not a lot to choose from them. Gazza, most definitely. Gazza was an absolute genius. And again, echoing what Martin said, the injury to him, what he would have been without that injury.

23:55Martin Samuel: We had the best player in the world. We thought we had the best player in the world. It was phenomenal. Coming out of the 1990s.

23:59Tony Cascarino: Yeah, so I haven't ever gone there. Four. Probably the next one would be? If you're going to do a five-a-side team, you need a striker. Yeah, I know. Well, it's only Lineker, really. Because I played against Lineker a few times. And Lineker, by the way, between 88 and 90, because Lineker had Epititis B, didn't he? Do you remember like late 80s in Barcelona? He got Epititis B. And he was like, I couldn't believe how quick Lineker was. And when he contracted Epititis B, he lost half a yard. And eventually, in the early 90s, he went to Spurs, didn't he? And I remember watching him. and you could actually see that he'd lost a yard in pace, which is a lot for a striker.

24:37Martin Samuel: Greaves just said that. Greaves just said he was never the same after he got hepatitis.

24:41Tony Cascarino: So you've got Shilton, Pearce. Who's the other defender? Brian Robson. Brian Robson, Gazza, Lineker against Rooney. Gazza got to play for both. Half three. John Terry, Bellingham, Kane. Gregory's winning that four-a-side game with Gazza playing both sides. It's good defence via tack. It is, yeah. Did Bellingham get a kick in, wouldn't he, from Brian Robson and Stuart Pearce? Brian Robson, I think, is another one. I think Martin's team is one of them. Martin's just, only just. I'll be the ref and I'll hear you get out.

25:12Martin Samuel: But Joel Gascon could easily play for both teams. He was that hyperactive. Vinny Samuels always said, they only ever gave you the ball in a position where he knew you had no option but to pass it straight back to him. You know, it was that sort of stuff.

25:27Tony Cascarino: Plenty more to come. We're going to go to break in a second. I just wanted to wrap up a few more moments of the international break. Did everyone see Mark Kukurea, by the way, doing maybe... Mark Kukurea has done a lot of Mark Kukurea things in his long career as an absolute shock house.

25:41Martin Samuel: He's 100 % Mark Kukurea

25:43Tony Cascarino: 100 % of the time. That's the thing with Mark Kukurea. And this one from the game against Croatia, one all, Ivan Perisic. It's the classic foul. He runs across him, clips the... Mark Kukurea is rolling on the floor and spins to the referee and does the yellow card sign on the floor as he's rolling before he can even get up. Then the referee, as he's about to send off Ivan Perisic, drops his red card. Who swoops in to help him? Mark Kukuret. There you go, referee. There you go.

26:08Martin Samuel: Just don't forget, yeah, red card. Thanks very much. Paul Gascon got booked. Yeah. Got booked for that, yeah. Well, then the fellow dropped his card and he showed the referee. He showed the referee the yellow card. He just wouldn't have done that.

26:19Tony Cascarino: Yeah, he showed the referee the yellow card and got booked. No humour, no humour. I wanted to finish by talking about two of the greats of the game. We've talked about some greats already, but Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi. maybe as to typify both of their career trajectories, I'd say, one of them bowing out properly, depends on whether you want to say properly, but with 500 drones flying in the air, defecting an image of you, certainly one way of doing it, and Cristiano Ronaldo bowing out with a 2 ,000-word statement about why a manager should have done and shouldn't have done what he said.

26:49Tony Cascarino: And insisting he's not bowed out. Yeah, and insisting he's not bowed out. Yes. Probably because he's watching things like Lionel Messi and going, I want my 500 drones as well.

26:58Martin Samuel: You're George Jesus. I'm not sure you're in a mood to make that happen. No.

27:01Tony Cascarino: No, I definitely wouldn't be.

27:03Martin Samuel: Do you think we'll see him again?

27:04Tony Cascarino: I don't know. He probably still wields a lot of power, you know. He made a doubt as well that the Portuguese definitely wanted him to come back, you know, because he was going to retire after the World Cup. But yeah, that's going to be a bit of a conflict to manage. There's only one guy

27:19Martin Samuel: that decides on substitutes. That's the manager. And there was no such thing as a deal. Yeah, this idea that he was told I was going to play 30 minutes. I was told I was going to play because the conditions of the match completely dictate substitutions. Just because you've been asked to warm up doesn't mean you're going to come on. I've got two professional footballers either side of me here. I wouldn't have thought there have been any, you know, any time in your careers when you didn't understand that as the way it basically works. That's how football works.

27:51Tony Cascarino: It's just that Ronaldo's never really been in a position where he's been told you'll get in half an hour and he'll think, right, that's set in stone now. If you tell the great Ronaldo that I'm getting half an hour, I expect half an hour. And it didn't happen. And so then the world falls in and he's... There's no world in which a manager is given a statement with bullet points that he's got to agree to. No, no, no, that's true. And say that this is a guy who's of the standing of Pele and Maradona.

28:13Martin Samuel: How do you write that?

28:16Tony Cascarino: What the hell? Look, the bottom line is, it was always going to rain them badly. Yes. Because if you continue as a player, there is someone that will come along and just say, I'm sorry, I don't quite agree with Roberto Martin as his stance. I have to do this. Because the whole point is, are the team better with or without him? And it's quite clear now that we're a better side without Ronaldo. Yeah, well, I'm sure he will be one to... That takes nothing away from his history and what he's done. No, no, you're quite right. But it doesn't always end as it did for Lionel Messi with all the fans and all the drones and all the celebrations and the kind of walkover win against Benito.

28:50Tony Cascarino: Very rarely, things like that.

28:52Martin Samuel: Someone said about Alex Ferguson, if you look at Alex Ferguson, someone when there was that almighty rail with uh roy keen and stuff like that and and someone who you know worked with for a long time and went never ends well with alex and and and and it's true if you if you know there's this clash towards the end there there is there will be a line in the sand that gets crossed one day yeah it's inevitable he will be he'll be waiting for his

29:18Tony Cascarino: big farewell and all of his drones do you two get any big farewells drones when you bowed out Tom? My excuse is the drones weren't really around in that time. I would have had drones, surely. I got a few mounds, not drones. They got blown away over the coast in Grimsby, like. Honestly, Tom, it's very rare that you get this fabulous reception and you go off and off to the future and it's all great. That's very rare. There's a bad story. One of the first pieces I wrote for the Times was, the headline was staring at a phone that doesn't ring that was my summer and that's what most players most footballers are and then even when you're talking about the greats of the game like you just referenced Troy Keane we're talking about Cristiano Ronaldo it's still not ending the way he wanted it to so they are vanishingly rare these moments think about Bobby Moore his end of his career when it was a disaster for him he went on to Southend and managed Southend yeah and it was like Oxford City nowhere for him to go the great Bobby Moore and you know you hear Harry Redknapp

30:22Martin Samuel: talking about Bobby Moore and how it ended and that you know he was in the press box at Wembley I knew I knew you know yeah commentating yeah I knew Bobby but I knew him actually too young to see you know in play really and he and I knew Bobby from the press box at Wembley and he used to go in with Capital Radio and you know and sit there in the press box Bobby Moore you're thinking wait you should be down in a Royal Box down there you should be and West Ham the same Harry said that he that he was over at West Ham once and saw Bobby Moore get a knockback because you know the ticket wasn't trying to get in

31:05Tony Cascarino: now it's obviously very different Ronaldo and Messi now in the modern game but the point is things so often end badly yeah some former footballers get to bow out with 500 drones some of them get to sit in the Game Podcast studio talking about football with me and Martin Samuels. Listen, there are worse places to be. Plenty more still to come in the second part of the show. It's time for Martin Samuels' favourite bit of every show. It's the quid question to take us into the break. Harry Kane winning his 125th cap for England this week, of course, equaling that record set by Peter Shilton. Kane reached those caps in 11 years.

31:40Tony Cascarino: How many years did it take Shilton? Find out after the break.

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33:48Tony Cascarino: Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Gregor Robertson, Tony Cascarino and Martin Samuel. With me, Tony and Martin. It was like being at a pub quiz in that little break, wasn't it, Gregor? Just racking their brains. What's your final answer? Well, I think you either play 71 to 90. Come on, final answer, Tony. So I'm going 19. 19 years, 224 days. Given that your initial answer was 20, I'll give you that as a correct answer. Well done. Very good. Very good. 19 years, 224 days. Harry Kane has done it in 11 years and 193 days. You would have done it in less,

34:28Martin Samuel: wouldn't he? If there's wrong going with the Ray Clements thing in the alternate games and stuff like that.

34:34Tony Cascarino: Stats in context, Martin. Absolutely, as always. Let's get back to the Premier League and we are going to talk about some football, the return of the Premier League and Mikel Arteta and Arsenal and that new contract. But before we get into Arsenal, let's talk about Manchester City dominating the headlines throughout this international break. The story developing all the time. Matt Lawton and Martin Ziegler reporting on it on the Times website. But Gregor, whilst I was off, you were doing all the question asking and shepherding the conversation brilliantly around this fascinating and challenging topic.

35:04Tony Cascarino: I don't know if anyone's ever asked you what you think should happen, though. Maybe Cass tried. I sat on the fence because it's a tough one, isn't it? This is the thing. He loves hosting because it's even easier to sit on the fence when you're hosting than it is when you're asking the questions. But so much has been made of, and fans understandably talking about the punishment and what it should be. Obviously, they've appealed, so we need for that process to happen first and we'll come on to the wider ramifications of any sort of punishment in a second. but you've listened to the guys in the hosting chair and you've obviously read lots.

35:34Tony Cascarino: Where do you sit right now and what should happen to City? It's difficult. I think my fundamental line in the sand is that Sheikh Mansour and ADUG should not be allowed to be the owners of Man City any longer. That should be the end goal. I feel like the punishment happens on the sporting side. People talking about whether they'd be you know expelled from the league and then if they start from the bottom work their way up or they're relegated and sustained points deductions also the sort of idea that a sustained points deduction that would keep them in I don't know the middle rump of the Premier League is like that's like some sort of purgatory for a football club I don't know if it is I don't think there's an easy easy solution on that side of it but I think that the scale of the cheating you know the calculated nature of it it's just there's no coming back from it.

36:29Tony Cascarino: And in terms of them not being allowed to run the club anymore is there a process for that? It may not be smooth it may not be easy. Are they forced to sell up? Are they just kicked out of the club and the club giving fine new owners? How would you see that happening? Because I think it's a good point and it's a point I think a lot of people have thought about their role in it. It may depend on the sporting punishment it may be you know this is becoming a bigger kind of scandal than just football alone. it's like international relations at play here they don't want to be seen to be embarrassed as a country almost it may depend on the sporting sanction but I know obviously the independent regular has within these powers they wouldn't have expected their first kind of case to be one of this magnitude that's obviously a mag stop but it might be that they agree to sell up and move on it might be that the punishment is so harsh that they feel there's no other option Martin, like Gregor you've not had a chance to have your say on the podcast.

37:28Tony Cascarino: You've written lots of pieces about this, of course, on the Times website that have been referenced. What is your reaction to it as we sit here now, having heard all the latest and heard some of Gregor's ideas and all the many ideas around punishments and what City have done?

37:40Martin Samuel: I totally understand what Gregor is saying there about the ownership of the club and if you decide, if the regulator decides that they are not fitting proper owners to be the club, to run the club, I completely see that. And there is a process. I do think with the punishment, because people say, oh, what do you think should happen? What do you think should happen? I think to work out what should happen, you really do need to sit down with some of the finest legal minds in the country to work out what the ramifications are. Because you see a lot of relegate them through four divisions, take away a thousand points, you know, 50 a year for the next century, whatever it is.

38:24Martin Samuel: I think any punishment, you start from a different place to the one that a lot of people are starting with here. Because I think the place you start from is, right, how do we prevent Manchester City as a club ceasing to exist? Because you can do a lot of things, and it's the old law of unforeseen consequences. You can do a lot of things, and suddenly you go, oh right so there's no football club anymore yeah well we didn't realise that was going to happen do you think there's a world

39:00Tony Cascarino: in which punishments could be so severe financially presumably that Manchester City could be in a position where they cease to exist

39:06Martin Samuel: well yeah because you can't just say you know when you're talking about if you're talking about the four clubs that are suing them and then you and now it turns out that it doesn't mean that it will only be four clubs all the other clubs and then you've got Stoke City claiming they would have won the FA Cup and Watford, who lost to the FA Cup final 6-0, somewhere I think they would have beaten every other team in the country that year to win the FA Cup were it not for Manchester City's presence. And all of this, and if you pile all of those compensation claims on, and then you start talking about the other aspects of it that people are saying, oh, the players could claim breach of contract, breach of trust, and they could all leave for free, so you've got no revenue coming in there.

39:48Martin Samuel: You can't just present a bill to Shank Mansoor because that's not how business works. It's Manchester City Football Club Limited.

39:57Tony Cascarino: There will be some people, though, who think you should be able to

40:01Martin Samuel: because of the scale of what they did. I think I should be able to do a lot of things that I can't do. We all think we should be able to do a lot of things But you understand why fans of other things would go 900 million. 50 % of the fans in this country support three clubs. I can understand, you know, that's why, you know, whenever you write about Manchester City, there's always this massive pile on and, you know, because 50 % of the country support three clubs. Those clubs, you know, we can all see what they want. And, you know, I've read a story yesterday that four clubs in the Premier League were told before 15 clubs what the verdict is, which doesn't seem quite right to me.

40:44Martin Samuel: All I'm saying is that it's almost like you have to reverse engineer it using legal minds to say, well, if you do this, that could be the consequence. Could. It's all could because this depends on appeals and all sorts of stuff that's going. What you've got to try to do is make sure that whatever punishment there is, you are left with Manchester City Football Club, which has been standing for, you know, across three centuries now. Those fans have got somewhere to go. I'm not talking about the ownership. The employees are obviously going to suffer because if it's a much reduced club, it will be a much reduced staff.

41:27Martin Samuel: So there will be employees that lose their job that have done absolutely nothing wrong. But you've got to end up with a club at the end of it. Wherever it is, in whichever way, you've got to end up with a club.

41:42Tony Cascarino: Gregor, just before I come to you, we've got plenty of listeners get in touch, including one, Matt, who got in touch. Kind of, I think, on a similar line to you, Martin. He talks about, Tom, he does confess as well to being a lawyer himself. He says, I'm appalled by how much weight is being given to a decision containing conclusions, assertions, but none of the evidence promised in the appendices. He's clearly read everything that came with this case. A panel issues a decision containing sweeping conclusions while the underlying evidentiary record remains confidential and unavailable to the public.

42:10Tony Cascarino: And instead of treating that as a reason for caution, Much of the football media simply repeats the conclusions as revealed truth and racist sentencing, which is an interesting point. I think speak to...

42:20Martin Samuel: Yeah, I mean, look, I'm not here to defend Manchester City. I just don't like to see football clubs cease to exist. And Manchester City is a great football club. It was a great football club before...

42:35Tony Cascarino: But I think a lot of fans would say that they would still exist, that you could give them an incredibly heavy punishment. and they would still exist because all the scenarios that you depicted, I think, would have to happen for them not to exist.

42:48Martin Samuel: There's a word in there, think, not guarantee. Yeah.

42:52Tony Cascarino: I don't think you can guarantee it. Anyway, that's the thing is there's so much that will be now at the whims of Sheikh Mansour and ADUG and, you know, how they see this reputationally, whether they'll be willing to accept the punishment and continue as owners themselves. like that might be their decision. But it should, I agree with Martin's saying, like it's just,

43:17Martin Samuel: I also have a, I think that's handled carefully. That's all I'm saying. Although I also have a, I also have a feeling that like,

43:23Tony Cascarino: actually football clubs, we've written about this for so long, like football clubs are a hell of a resilient, like the, you know, Macclesfield doesn't exist in the same form, but it's, it's working its way to get back up the league. Kettering. I'm not saying, I'm not saying, it would be an extraordinary, it would be an extraordinary sight to see Manchester City having to do that. I'm not saying that I want that to happen. No. That could happen and it's out with anyone's control. But there are other things like the council on the stadium leased them to the football club. They would have a home.

43:56Martin Samuel: Only if they could afford to pay the lease.

43:58Tony Cascarino: I think Manchester Council would probably make that workable. They would do something. I know there's a lot of thinks and probably. I know,

44:06Martin Samuel: but then again, there's an issue straight away because why would Manchester Council make that viable for Manchester if you're a Man U fan you think how much West Ham how much do we think we deserve it mate

44:19Tony Cascarino: how much do we think Martin you talked about other clubs there you envisaged the scenario in which the ones that are suing Manchester City get a big payout and that maybe other clubs then look and go how much do we think the other clubs in the Premier League are going to dictate what might happen here not dictate but be influenced because Adam another listener got in touch with me whilst I was off and talking about the fact that there is an interesting angle to this about the spending that went on and how other clubs benefited from huge spending of Manchester City. He talked about Jack Grealish going for£100 million to Aston Villa and the threads of these things.

44:55Tony Cascarino: Gregor, you're shaking your

44:56Martin Samuel: head, but Martin... Well, no, I was talking to someone the other day who said that, who was talking about the high tide that raises all boats or whatever and the standards. It's an argument, but you You can't use it as an argument to justify what Manchester City did. I don't think this listener was justifying what they did.

45:14Tony Cascarino: I think he was talking about when you step out of it, all the other clubs have at least either benefited from it or been part of it. I think that's absolute nonsense. I think that the inflationary drag of Manchester City and their extraordinary spending actually created a lot of pressure on another club, put a lot of pressure on other clubs. So yeah, they might have had one transfer fee here, but they would also have to compete with their wages. and we're now finding out that sometimes paid wages and dual contracts. Yeah, yeah. So like, I think that's absolutely nonsense. Actually, I think your first, the first person who wrote in as well, I think you've got to be careful here to kind of, to not, you know, remember that this was three, you know, high-level KCs who've come to a final, like, this is the final decision.

46:00Tony Cascarino: Whatever the evidentiary weight or whatever is, we'll find out in the future, but this is it. It's, the appeal has been fought on a technicality on like legal terms. If there's any flaw in the argument legally, it's not about the body of evidence. That sounds a bit like Soriano talking about conspiracy theories. So this is it. It's done and dusted. Like the appeal is, if they win an appeal, it would be on a technicality. Yeah. Again. Yeah. I honestly don't think that, I'd like to think football fans of even the biggest clubs, the majority of them would want to see punishment and a fair result.

46:35Tony Cascarino: And Martin's right. There is unintended consequences of what happens if you go too far. Now, that's for the legal team and football to work out. They have to work that out of going, well, no, players can't leave on free contracts. Now, players might argue that. But this has happened at other clubs, but they've not ended. Juventus has happened. And the Bordeaux issues. It happened to Marseille, you know, where they've suffered hugely. but from the outside it feels like even more fans want more severe punishment than them clubs got now Bordeaux went down four levels yeah also the what the Premier League other Premier League clubs want only matters to a very small extent I mean yes it's a member's body the Premier League will be able to give their view or their advice about what give a view to the appeals panel of what they feel that a punishment would be appropriate but that's all it is it's for someone else to decide so the clubs will put an input into that

47:36Martin Samuel: the clubs vote on whether City are expelled or not that's the one that's the one thing that is down to the clubs if the judgment was to expel Manchester City from the league the clubs have still got a vote and they need two thirds and they need two thirds

47:51Tony Cascarino: I want to finish with a bit of football but just before we do Martin I asked Matt Lawton another man of similar experience to you for a guess at whether this we'd get a punishment this season or not? Because I think that's another thing fans are thinking. Well, I wrote... Matt guessed it won't be before Christmas, but it will be this season.

48:08Martin Samuel: Well, I wrote... I put a date on it of around about January the 21st. Right. I've subsequently spoken to several lawyers and heard other lawyers talking about it. I think maybe I was being a little bit optimistic at the end of January. you'd think that there will be but then obviously Manchester City can appeal the punishment as well I think that punishment moment is such a moment so it's what you consider the conclusion to it you consider the conclusion the punishment or when there's the appeal against the punishment because Everton were deducted 10 points and then ended up being deducted 6 points so you know if you look at that in proportionality that could be 100 points and 60 points.

48:58Tony Cascarino: But you'd say their first verdict on a punishment, you think this season. If you're saying... I think this season.

49:04Martin Samuel: It'd be very disappointed if it wasn't this season unless they actually say, knowing the way the case has gone, knowing what has to be decided, if they put out a statement that said, do not expect a final decision before the summer, then you would... least know that Liverpool versus Manchester City on Sunday was worth three points and would go towards a final league position in May. Yeah. Yeah. And then in the summer, there would be a punishment and it would start next season. So if Manchester City were deducted 100 points, let's say. If Manchester City were deducted 100 points, it starts next season.

49:54Martin Samuel: So, because at the moment, we are expecting people, by the way, to pay very good money for a ticket for a match on Sunday. Yeah. That we have not got a clue what that is worth. And I'm not saying that's the Premier League's fault or Liverpool's fault as the home team. It's Manchester's fault. It's on Man City. But nevertheless, you're expecting people to pay good money. I'm going to the match. You're expecting people to pay good money to go to this match. Man City win, say, which I don't think they will, by the way. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think Liverpool will win this. But why Man City will win? You all look at each other going, what does that mean then?

50:34Martin Samuel: Yeah. Is that the three points that might keep them up? Or is that the three points that could win the league? Or is that three points that means nothing at all because they've been inducted 150 points and there's no way they're going to start anyway?

50:47Tony Cascarino: Well, I'm in the editing chair on Sunday, Martin, and as you say, you're at Anfield with Paul Joyce, so we can work it out when Man City win 3-0 what it all means it's a six pointer yeah it's a six pointer on every level speaking of other punishments Tonda Eckhart getting a suspended six week ban for his involvement in the Spygate scandal Gregor that story came out just after we'd recorded our latest EFL show we'll maybe talk about that a bit more in next week's EFL Extra show because I wanted to finish with a bit of football Martin you've talked about the big game already in terms of Liverpool Manchester City Tony you're going to another one of many big games this weekend Arsenal against Leeds at home.

51:24Tony Cascarino: Fascinating for Arsenal in terms of the performance that they put in and the defeat against Brighton. Michael Arteta has had a long time to stew over that whilst reading his bumper new contract, which, if all the stipulations and things come through, could earn him 25 million quid a year. I mean, it's not bad, is it? It's not bad.

51:42Martin Samuel: It's not, but it's what football is worth. You think he's worth 25 million a year? I don't know what he's worth. What do you think Vradiola was on

51:50Tony Cascarino: when the final year of your contract? Not that, surely.

51:53Martin Samuel: That's an obscene amount of money. But mate, all you've got to look at, if they can pay the manager£25 million a year, what do you think the football club's bringing in?

52:03Tony Cascarino: Hell of a lot. Speaking of spending a lot of money, they spent an awful lot of money on Victor Jokeres last summer, Tony. Gary Jacob writing a piece about the idea that Kai Havertz maybe not fully fit. He picked up that injury against Germany. And they head into this game, Arsenal fans, going, actually, maybe we should play the backup defensive midfielder up front because Mikel Moreno scored for Spain. It would be maybe the final nail for Victor Jokeres in terms of the perception of him at Arsenal. If he's not starting at home against Leeds, a game in which he scored, I think, two last season early on.

52:39Tony Cascarino: Thoughts on that scenario for Arsenal? I personally think he'll play Jokeres. Really? I do. Jokovic will be thinking a lot about that, what's in front, what's going to happen. I think it would be hard for him to take being left out as a natural send forward. Mourinho's a midfielder that can play that role. But if you get left out for him, what's your career? What if he starts and then it's nil-nil and then Mourinho comes on? That's worse. Well, maybe. But it's on Jokovic to perform, to still show everybody. You know, he isn't... it's a really hard one because they won the title and he played a part, but he's not the biggest part.

53:18Tony Cascarino: And he was spent for a lot of money. It feels like he was there for a signing made for last season to have another option. Someone who will run the channels and work hard and will contribute with goals and lead the line. And at times done well. It's not like he's had a really bad season. He didn't. He contributed to Arsenal's success last year, but he's not convinced enough going forward that is clearly the case and if he gets left out as a player you're just literally on the floor because it's a hard blow I think almost more importantly than whether he's left out or not is the fact that Arsenal have left themselves in a position where Kai Havertz isn't fit this is the conversation we're having and this is their alternatives and we said it at the start of the season and Kai Havertz's injury record has obviously been a bit patchy and we're here already so yeah they might clearly with the context of the state of the rest of the league they might be able to fudge through with Giochrez again for half a season two thirds of a season if they need to and still win the league but do we not give him any credit Gregor very little I know you're not his biggest fan nothing like personal I say this the thing you can always say about him is he works his socks off he runs the channels he does everything he can for the team he does his very best he's just not good enough to be a striker for Arsenal I don't think and yet if you're playing if you're a striker of a certain standard playing for Arsenal in the Premier League you'll score some goals and he did that and there were a few really high points for him you think of the Atletico Madrid game last season he was excellent he ran them ragged and he had some space when he got the space to run into

54:52Martin Samuel: you see more of what makes him good you get these one off games don't you and you think oh this is a corner turn a reminder and this is a corner turned and this will be how it is but actually that's the outlier you play against the little block again the next week and the 35 other matches are where it really is. Robert Sanchez in goal for Chelsea in the Club World Cup final. You think, oh, this is a corner turn. No, that was just a very outlying, absolutely exceptional game. And the rest of what you saw... It's my attributes against Spurs. It was very similar. Your goal was... You didn't even tell me about that only the other day, Tone.

55:33Tony Cascarino: We've also got Oliver Glasner returning to Crystal Palace with Nottingham Forest as well. We've got value versus... Well, that was my final question, Martin.

55:41Martin Samuel: The lackeyest club in the world. Manchester United. Tottenham have spent... They're bottom, aren't they? It's so long ago. Well, they haven't won a game since the international game. Or something, yeah. And they've been bottomed. And it's not been mentioned at all because the minute it was going to be three weeks of, good God, what's happened at Tottenham? But it's instead become three weeks of Manchester City... You could argue the same for Michael Carrick

56:06Tony Cascarino: and Manchester United as well. after the way they headed into the international break. So that was my final question. It's just a very quick one. It's not a prediction, but just a guess as to whether this will be an entertaining game or an absolute stinker. I worry United-Tottenham. There's a lot riding on it for both teams and both managers. I think it could be.

56:24Martin Samuel: I would have thought it would be one of those classic era, you know, because they were both teams that, they were both clubs, weren't they? Yeah, Manchester United always went for it. Tottenham always went for it. Yeah, this, I'm not so sure. Nil-nil.

56:38Tony Cascarino: Both fans are literally behind the set east watching the night. Honestly. But 5.30 behind the set east, we'll be keeping an eye on it on the Times website as well as all the rest of the games, but we'll leave it there for now. Tony Cascarino, Martin Samuel and Gregor Robertson, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Monday. We'll see you then.

57:24Tony Cascarino: Apple Watch Series 12 For general wellness purposes only. Not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later.