England into Semis after crazy penalty shootout

0:00At PwC, we optimize the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible. From blueprint to breakthrough, we take you further with tech so you can outthink, outpace and outperform. PwC, so you can. PwC refers to the PwC network and or one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity. Hello, I'm Monica Reinagle, host of the Nutrition Diva podcast. Summer is here and with it, the hot and sticky weather. A morning working in the garden or maybe on the golf course can leave you more depleted than you realize.

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1:12Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. Well, have you recovered yet? Nope, me neither. England are into the semi-finals of Euro 2025 after a penalty shootout victory. And if you're in need of some heroic inspiration, then look no further. Take Hannah Hampton, England's new number one goalkeeper, after replacing the great Mary Earp, saving not one, but two penalties in the shootout and doing so with a bloodied nose. Lucy Bronze, the stand-in captain, barely able to stand with her strapped up hamstring, smashing her penalty into the back of the net with a roar of celebration.

1:48Or Chloe Kelly, already a hero from Euro 2022, off the bench to create both goals in the 2-2 draw with Sweden before stepping up to take the crucial fifth penalty, smiling and then banging it in the top corner. Absolutely iconic. Were England crap for large parts of their quarterfinal? Yes. Do we care? Not in the slightest. I'm Tom Clark and I'm still a little bit delirious this morning, but thankfully joining me to try and make sense of that crazy game and preview the next match with Italy, We have the women's football reporter for The Times and Sunday Times, Kit Shepard, and the former England international and Times columnist, Izzy Christensen.

2:25Izzy, have you ever seen anything like that penalty shootout before in your career or life in women's football? Oh my word. It was... Oh God, how do we describe it, guys? It was... Bonkers is the word I kept coming to. It was absolutely nuts. It was totally nuts. and there were so many little narratives and so many left-footers taking penalties. And players who I thought were going to score missed, players who I thought were going to miss scored. Sweden shanked a couple wide, didn't they? Magdalena Eriksson off the post, Hannah Hampton was alive and kicking and oh God, it was terrific. And then obviously we're all probably going to agree on this, but Lucy Bronze's penalty.

3:12I spoke to her last night, I saw her message this morning and she said, sometimes it just takes a big old smack down the middle. Yes, exactly. I could not agree. I could not agree with you more. Sorry to interrupt, but I was sat on my couch watching everyone miss, including the Sweden players, because let's be honest, there were some really bad penalties. And I was just going, you know, I'm a fan of a lower league football team and going, just smash it down the middle. Will someone just smack it down the middle? so not only do I find Lucy Bronze a hero anyway but the fact that she scored a penalty like that also just very quickly Izzy if you speak to her like she can barely she could barely stand up she was strapping up her own injury wasn't she?

3:52It's funny because I know how she must be feeling and I know why she was doing what she was doing and basically she literally needed to go so tight on that strapping that it almost cut the blood supply and the feeling off to that part of her body Whether she took the strapping off or not before the penalty, I don't know. But personally, if that was me, I would have taken it off because you'd want to know that you're completely yourself ready to smash that penalty. But, you know, that is Lucy. I was joking with another mutual friend on WhatsApp last night, Lucy Staniforth, who's an Aspen Villa player, former England international herself as well, and we were just laughing going, she can do it all, can't she?

4:32The physio sat next to her and she's just strapping her own hamstring. So, yeah. Absolutely iconic. Just coming back to the penalties, we will come back to Lucy Bronze later on in more detail. Kit, you were there. I mean, trying to cover this game as a reporter must have been incredibly challenging. Trying to make sense of that penalty shootout, just the penalty shootout. I don't know how you managed it. What was it like in the ground? Yeah, well, I started writing an intro probably about five minutes before England got a bat to 2-1, which, let's say, just wasn't as positive as what we ended up writing.

5:10But yeah, once he got to the penalties, it's on the one hand fairly straightforward. Or you think it's going to be fairly straightforward when you're writing your report because it feels like there's two clear options. Either they win or lose on penalties and a couple of people will miss or it'll be the other way around and someone will be the hero. But this was just kind of a bit of everything. goalkeepers stepping up to take the decisive one and missing you had one's going over one's being saved one's off the post you had chloe kelly as you say smirking before she took the penalty not not to win to keep england in the tournament which is an even more high pressure penalty and putting it in the top corner it was unbelievable it was one of those rare instances which i think always creates morbid fascination in sport where you just have these are the people at the absolute pinnacle of their profession.

6:04They're the best in the world, but the pressure was too much for most of them and it just led to some terrible penalties. But that means full credit to those that were able to keep their nerve. Yeah, Izzy, just on that, did it look like pressure to you? I mean, there was obviously a few very young players taking it. Grace Clinton, for example, is a good example of one I can think of who just looked quite overawed by the occasion potentially. Is Kit right there that it is just the pressure of that moment? or was it that, you know, by the end of this game, England ended up with quite a bit of a hodgepodge team with injuries and stuff that maybe they were lacking some of their experienced players as well in terms of the quality of those penalties or let's be honest, lack of?

6:44Yeah, I think two of the penalty takers who I personally would have selected, Georgia Stanway, who obviously takes penalties for England was off the pitch and Kieran Walsh off the pitch at this point. And I think that's where you have to, as a coach, when it gets to that type of situation where it is literally like do or die and you've planning kind of goes out the window I think you have to put so much trust and faith into the squad and she does do that soon even but I do think some of the players did look a little overawed like you say um but it was almost like a free pass to missing because Sweden were then going to all miss their one so it was like it was such a weird scenario how it all kind of played out but such a bittersweet thing I saw the tv cameras on Alex Greenwood after knowing her so well like you know she is an unbelievable player but it backed her to the sun score a penalty she didn't but I know with her standards as an individual she will be devastated but obviously it doesn't matter because they won you know I mean it's just like there's so many little subplots involved in it but um that experience is out the window now and those players can learn from it but she can't plan for everything and the team that she had on the pitch at the time was the team that got them back into that situation anyway so there we go yeah just just a minute for Falk the Swedish goalkeeper I I feel kind of sorry for her I mean I feel more than kind of sorry for her because she in in sport you kind of you aim for the moment of I am I am the big I am here you know we're going to talk about Chloe Kelly doing it in a minute but to go, no, I'm going to save a few penalties, then I'm going to step up and take the fifth.

8:28Again, I was sat on my couch going, oh my God, the keeper's taking it. Oh my God, it's Ricciardo against England, against Portugal in whatever it was, that tournament. Kit, in the stadium, surely in the press box, everyone was going, oh my God, oh my God, the keeper's taking the fifth penalty. Yeah, we were doing that sort of, oh my God, long before as well, but definitely at that stage. It was interesting because, so yeah, Sweden had that fifth penalty to win after Kelly scored. And Sophia Jakobsen, one of the Sweden outfield players, midfielder, started walking up with the ball. So we thought, okay, she's going to take the fifth penalty.

9:04But then she kind of got to maybe like the edge of the D and gave the ball to Falk. And it was like, no, it almost was like, you're taking it, mate. I don't know if that was always the plan. And Falk knew she was taking a penalty and that was just part of her routine. but it seemed a strange kind of way to make the decision. At least that's how it looked. And yeah, the penalty, it was a stereotypical way of a goalkeeper taking a penalty. It kind of just ballooned over the bar. So yeah, I don't know if it was always the plan for her to take the fifth and then Jakobsen stepped up afterwards as well and missed two.

9:43So whatever Sweden's plans were there, it didn't work. Certainly not like Ricciardo in 2004. No. Izzy, can I just ask, we don't want to dwell too much on the penalties because there's loads still to talk about, but with, as I mentioned before, and you followed up, Stanway being off the pitch, Kira Walsh being off the pitch, and other very experienced players, you know, whether Leah Williamson would have taken one or not, we don't know, but can a manager and a group of players still plan a penalty shootout list for that scenario, or is it very on the hoof? Once you've got such a ragtag bunch on the pitch with so many injuries, does your planning of, right, you are one, two, three, four, five, go a little bit out the window um yeah i would like to say yes sometimes um it's clear god there's so many different scenarios you can plan for in terms of penalty shootout sometimes the unplanned ones are the best a bit like parties um i think i think i think that they um i think there's a feeling in that moment where you know as an individual whether you're you're in a good place or not but once it gets to a point where you get into your sixth and seventh and eighth penalty if you've originally said at the start i don't want to take one like the psych around now having to step up yeah is kind of a very precarious position to be in um but i think that you know it's a feeling but also i know i'm very interested in like this sort of stuff like around the side around penalty and stuff it was Serena Viegman and the players just there yeah in the huddle deciding and then the assistant iron was stood outside of the huddle with a pen and paper sort of by the tv camera semi-listening in and I don't know if he had already the five written down or whether they were deciding in the huddle I don't know what's going on but that strategy was England's strategy and obviously it paid off um I don't know what Sweden's strategy was but to me they looked under pressure more so than England and every time the camera zooms in on the visuals of the player I felt like I could see if a player was looking or was not looking confident and I don't think Sweden executed well enough with confidence to win and that's why England won.

11:56Yeah very interesting I think I agree with you about the Swedish nerves seeming quite evident on their faces and things speaking of people who didn't seem nervous and people who show in confident let's let chloe kelly i mean like the not the penalty is he but also the grin before taking it this this woman is like an absolute i said iconic i can't think of a better word you know she's already got the moment from euro 2022 immortalized forever running off in celebration with her shirt around her head she steps up to take a penalty as kit says not to win it not like Some players are like, you know, the Cristiano Ronaldo, I'm going to win this, therefore I'm going to smile because I'm so confident.

12:38This is, I need to score, otherwise we're out. And she just does a little grin, a little hop, top corner, no problem, lads. I mean, the mentality that she has is extraordinary to me. I think she's really come into her own in the last two years in terms of going through an injury post-Euro's 2022 winning goal and then having an injury, getting in a bad place and finding herself again in January when she moved to Arsenal, gets a Champions League medal around her neck and then she's kind of developed this even greater aura about her and those are the sorts of personalities people want in sport, players that can have a little bit of something about them but also deliver and I think Lucy Bronze is a player that does that and Chloe Kelly is now a player who does that and I think like you say the moment that she owned she has her routine we all know what her penalty technique is we don't know which way she's going to put the ball and neither does Jennifer Falk and I just think you know her penalty oozed quality um the little smile before goes one of two ways doesn't it if you miss you you look silly if you score you look like a champ so she's so confident and it was exactly what England needed at exactly the right time and just a quick one on Chloe if you don't mind, Serena made three changes in the game at once she then waited, I don't know what the timing was between those three and then Chloe Kelly coming on but I think that is unbelievable player management from because Chloe Kelly then came on and then does what she did within about 60 seconds, assisting Felice bronze and then assisting ish for the second goal and I think that kind of element of Chloe Kelly sitting on the bench she you're watching three players come on before you knowing you can make an impact and so she's probably feeling the fire inside of burning harder and harder and then as soon as she enters the fray she's probably I don't want to use any swear words but she's so miffed off that she comes on angry ready to sort it out and that's the man management of knowing that that player functions at her highest level when she's annoyed.

14:56Yeah. And I just think that, like, it all just teed up nicely. And I was seeing online, everyone's saying the timing of the subs are wrong. I don't think they are. Interesting. But, again, we'll see. I think we'll get back in the game. And I just think Chloe Kelly just oozed confidence fast. Yeah. Kit, just on that theory, this is something that we talked about pre-game, wasn't it, in terms of Vigman's subs. Tell the listeners a little bit more about that, what you discovered pre-game, but also that idea of Chloe Kelly as Wonder Woman off the bench and Wiegmann turning to her and going, come on then, bail us out again.

15:30Off you go. Yeah, so Chloe Kelly spoke to the media on Tuesday and gave quite a unique and unusual perspective on England's substitutes. Basically said they were a clique. She kept pronouncing it clique, which created a bit of annoying confusion. But basically what she was saying is the substitutes have got their own group chat. They've got their own special celebration. And she, Beth Mead, Beaver Jones, all the players that aren't in what seems like the clear starting XI are kind of really embracing their role as substitutes to the extent that they think they are a positive clique. Which she said, yeah, it's a positive clique.

16:13So she wasn't implying that it's anything that's harming the group. But the fact I think that you even mention it in those terms to the media is rather unusual. And yeah, quite an interesting way of approaching not starting, essentially, and trying to turn it into a positive in quite a strange way. But it clearly worked last night in terms of... Sorry, go on. No, just listening to you talk about that positivity and Izzy's as well. I'm pretty sure before the second goal, when she gets the ball down the wing, the camera actually went to her in a close-up and you can see her screaming, going, give me the ball, give me the ball.

16:54So it's almost like, I know this sounds ridiculous and I've completely lost my mind, but it's like she knew it was going to happen. She's like, give me the ball, I'm going to make this happen. And it's that both determination to prove something to people that Izzy's talking about, and then the confidence kit that you're talking about. She just then completely showed it on the pitch with those two goals that she created, didn't she? Yeah, she's got that ineffable quality, it seems, that some players have, just showing up in the big moments. Everyone knows about Euro 22, but she also scored the winning penalty against Nigeria in the World Cup and against Brazil in the finalist in 2023.

17:34She was really important to Arsenal in their Champions League run this year, kind of from nowhere, obviously being mainly on the bench at City for the first half of last season. And then, yeah, last night was another example of that. Nothing's happening for England. She comes on and within seconds is putting in crosses that are changing the game. It just seems like what she does is kind of beyond analysis sometimes it feels like, but we'll try. Yeah, I mean, it definitely seems like it. Izzy, either very happy for you to go back to Chloe Kelly, but another player that we've already mentioned and that you've mentioned in us having similar qualities is Lucy Bronze.

18:12I just wanted to hear from you a bit more about her. You mentioned having spoken to her, but like scoring that goal. And I'm pretty sure, again, she absolutely boots the advertising hoarding when she heads that ball in in celebration, as if to say, for God's sake, finally. And I'm thinking, literally, you might have broken your metatarsal. Like, what are you doing? So she sprints to the back post, heads the ball in, leathers the advertising hoarding, then turns around and you're like, come on, right, we need to score another one. I mean, again, I can't get over the elite mentality of it. Yeah, she is.

18:46I can't put it any differently into an elite mentality. And, you know, to drag your team out of the ashes at right back is saying something. Like, you expect a number 10 or a number 9 or, you know, maybe a centre-back off a set piece to drag you out of the ashes. But, Lucy, like, I don't know. it's like when the world or the game goes that way she rises and she springs upwards and just happens to make things happen now Lucy will be the first to admit she isn't the most gifted footballer in terms of like a Lauren James or a Analesio Russo or a Tejas or we can put her in that category because she is there but she is in terms of her mentality and she is the epitome of um hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard and i just i can't i can't believe she keeps doing what she does and the captain's arm bang suited her big time last night puts the ball on the spot smashes the ball down the middle it was like she in that moment where she stepped up to take the penalty she cut through modern football and said hang on a minute let's not get too modern let's let's go old here let's not be fancy and pretty with a penalty let's smash it down the middle and then move on and the present and to be fair if you go back to the coin toss obviously Leah Williamson had gone off she does the coin toss she wins the coin toss tv cameras are zooming in on Lucy and she has this little right smile as if to say we've won the coin toss we're going to shoot in front of our own fans in the stadium.

20:33And I'm buzzing because that's our first win here in this next sort of 15-minute segment of the game. So she already kind of brings that aura to the group as if to say, I've won the first one, we can win. Like, whatever it takes. And she has that belief and she is going to be without a doubt or is already one of England's greatest all-time footballers. do you think she goes under the radar at all is he though having having said all that because i think i mean you're right within women's football circles for sure people know lucy bronze as one of the best players of this generation but when you think of like what 130 caps uh five champions leagues she won the fifa best award in 2020 i believe and she won a lot of other stuff as well so just when you're listing off her achievements thinking wow this is one of england's greatest sports people of the modern era and yet i think i'm on casual fans she's probably not one of the two or three like most most well-known and revered lionesses in this team do you first of all do you agree and do you have any idea why i might be if so well i think the the most well-known lionesses are the ones who are very commercially valuable.

21:52And there is a theme with which of the England players are more visible commercially around the country, around the nation. So therefore, fans, you know, passive fans or engrossed fans are very much drawn towards those players because they are very visible even when they're not on the football pitch. Lucy Bronze is like visible when she's on the football pitch because of all of the beautiful traits that she has as an athlete. Like she's powerful, she's strong, she's determined, she's got such a strong mentality. She's good at football, which helps. And she, yeah, and those are the things which she stayed true to her whole career and they won't ever change.

22:33And I think that that's why she, I think that's why in the last couple of years, that's maybe why she slipped under the radar. But I don't think she slipped under the radar in the last 10 years because she's won how many Champions Leagues with multiple football clubs. You know, she's won everywhere she goes. She has an impact wherever she goes. And I think it's just merely down to, I think you can look at it, one bracket of commercialisation of the game and marketability, but also the actual position she plays on the pitch. She plays a right back and people don't often grow up and say, I want to be a right back.

23:07Like right backs aren't sexy, but Lucy's proven that right backs are very fashionable. and she's smashing it. Yeah. I also just want a quick word from my point of view for the diving-headed challenge that she made in the very last minute. I think the Sweden player, I forget who it was, was going to kind of kick the ball at about mid-height and she was like, the only way I can get this ball first is by diving-heading it and I might get booted in the face and she just did it anyway. I mean, she's just hard as out as well. Just absolutely iconic. Now, before, we are going to take a quick break and then we're going to come back and we promised some listeners who will be thinking, England need to get better.

23:45You're being very nice about this team and that wasn't a very good performance. We will be some Kit Shepard critique, I'm sure, in the second half of the show. But before we get there, the third player I wanted to mention, Hannah Hampton. So much was made of her heading into this tournament. We've talked about her passing ability, Izzy, replacing Mary Earp, stepping into those shoes. I mean, I keep using the word iconic. having a bloodied nose with blood streaming down your face and saving two penalties in a shootout as a young goalkeeper, it doesn't get much more iconic than that, does it, Izzy?

24:18No, it doesn't. I think it was like on a battlefield. I think the way that they acted were they took the hits, they took the wounds that Sweden were chucking at them. And you could just see the kind of shifting mentality for both teams as England started to get back in the game. the looks on the Swedish players' faces and then the look on England's faces. And there was a fierceness about Pam Hampton, Lucy Bonds in particular, Chloe Kelly when she came on. She took it. We knew we spoke in Kit's column about, you know, pre-game about Hampton having to deal with so much air relief and she was going to be absolutely peppered and attacked inside the box.

24:58And she was. And obviously playing a penalty shootout, saving two penalties with a blooded nose kind of epitomises the, I'll use it the proper English mentality you know the old school kind of like get stuck in get your socks filthy get covered in mud and get the job done and Hampton I just love the way that she played and I love the way she played the whole tournament I think she's been absolutely superb and two more to go Kit just on that we talked in the preview show you said Sweden would target England from crosses you said they put Hannah Hampton under pressure not just those two penalty saves but I thought she really stepped up late in the game.

25:37You know, it wasn't always clean. It wasn't always comfortable, partly because of her stature. She just couldn't quite, but she was coming for all the crosses, trying to punch them, trying to dominate her area. She did not look cowed by the challenge that she was presented with. Not at all. And she also made a really important save just before half time to stop it going 3-0 and probably keep England in the tournament there. And then, yeah, as you say, in extra time when Sweden were really on top again, being there, imposing physical selves that we sort of framed them as. But before the game, Hampton was throwing herself at everything, her especially, but it felt like the whole team were as well.

26:20And it was almost, yeah, if you're a proud English person, I guess that would be very inspiring viewing. And for Hampton specifically, it really felt like last night, Like she was originally Mary Ups as replacement. Then she was maybe this goalkeeper who's brilliant with the ball at her feet after the Netherlands game. And now I think she's just being seen as this fantastic all around keeper who can do a bit, do a little bit of it all and can deliver in the big moments. And also, as we found out after the game, has a very fun personality as well. um again there's been reports about her bad attitude in the past or alleged bad attitude um but she was um she was on great form in the press conference she actually answered a facetime call from her friends and family during the press conference and just started talking to them um which i think has gone gone all around social media um which was very funny and provided some some levity at about 1 a.m in the morning in zurich absolutely i mean absolutely iconic moments from all those three players.

27:28I promise we are going to critique some of that, rest of that performance in the second half of the show. Time for a quick break. Time for a quick quiz question. England beat Nigeria 4-2 on penalties in a shootout at the 2023 World Cup. But who scored the winning penalty that day? Find out after the break.

27:52At PwC, we optimise the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible. From blueprint to breakthrough, we take you further with tech. So you can outthink, outpace, and outperform. PwC. So you can. PwC refers to the PwC network and or one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity. Hello, I'm Monica Reinagle, host of the Nutrition Diva podcast. Summer is here and with it, the hot and sticky weather. A morning working in the garden or maybe on the golf course can leave you more depleted than you realize.

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30:05Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Izzy Christensen and Kit Shepard with me. Kit, nice and easy quiz question. so easy that you might have even mentioned it already on the show it was chloe kelly of course it was chloe kelly the answer from now on in this podcast the answer to every quiz question is chloe kelly from now on after that she's my new absolute hero she was my hero before she's my new hero now the answer to every question i ever ask just so you know listeners is now is going to be chloe kelly now i kept mentioning in the first half of the show that obviously we were completely delirious with the bonkers nature of that penalty shootout and we picked out kelly hannah hampton and lucy bronze for praise but kit this was not a great performance i kept using iconic about those players this was not an iconic england performance overall and it was an absolutely dreadful start to this game how do you try we tried to sum up that penalty shootout how do you sum up england's performance obviously they got the job done they battled through as he said lots of very english British qualities shown but football wise a bit of a worry?

31:11Yeah I mean as as we and a fair few other places highlighted before the game England's left side looked potentially vulnerable against Sweden's pace on that side of the pitch excuse me and and that's what happened especially in that first half Sweden pressed pretty aggressively they got through the Greenwood and Carter left flank of the defence. England were sloppy on the ball. They seemed slightly passive and it was to an extent a rerun of the France game it felt like. And while yes, we're all delirious and happy and we should be the England that got through, the fact that they've been exposed by two teams who are both fairly dynamic and have threats down the right wing is certainly worrying.

32:01Is this just an inherent flaw England have in something they can't solve with kind of tactical or strategic adjustments Izzy, that question to you then from Kit, do you agree with his points about the worries that England showed in this game and can they solve it before the next game? Great question I think we highlighted before the game and I think it's almost like you're not going to be perfect in every area and England, that is an area where England looking toward the future is you know an area where they would like to strengthen their squad however the here and now is what matters and I mean looking ahead to Italy Italy will not threaten down that right hand side so to me that's like okay but then if you are thinking hypothetically toward a final very hypothetically if it were to be Spain Spain do threaten down the right hand side Germany threatened down the right hand side and France threatened down the right hand side so it's kind of twofold but I think my overall summary of the performance last night was England and Sweden believe it or not both played a very risky game in possession England and I think the risk attached to Sweden's game plan was the epitome of the first goal they scored after two minutes so watching it back and if you get the privilege of watching it with a wider screen you can see the risk versus reward strategy with England in possession if the ball is not won back from Kira Walsh in that high area England are absolutely out and 5v4 on the back line maybe 6v4 on the back line because they were high and wide very expansive Sweden chose to jump that pass and they got their reward for being brave they jumped it and they scored after two minutes perfect start and then obviously that's where we pay attention to the left-hand side for England where Blaisdinius exploited Sweden's game plan was absolutely perfect you know the passing to the channel perfect Blaisdinius took it by the scruff of the neck and we did say we'd be foolish to give her time and believe that she needs 20 chances before she can score one goal she delivered and that's exactly what she can do she has world-class qualities um so at 2-0 you think England are down and out but at 2-0 Sweden also had more chances um and that's where they failed to put the game to bed and it gave England you know the door was left to jar for England and then obviously the rest is history um but yeah it was a very risk v reward game plan and I thought it was great because the game was really good to watch were England unbelievable no but they showed unbelievable qualities in the game to win the game with a proper good mentality, belief, resilience.

34:47And sometimes in sport, that's what we like to look at. What do you think, obviously first England need to work out who's fit, but Izzy, what could they potentially do with that back line? It changed a lot over the game. Early on, Williamson and Carter switched centre-back positions. You then had Esme Morgan come on in the second half. You had, try to get so hard to remember, Niamh Charles came on at left back towards the end and Greenwood came inside. And I actually thought Niamh Charles defended really well after coming in some criticism for defending. So well done her. But yeah, there were a lot of changes to England's back line over the 120 minutes.

35:29Did any of them look like potential solutions for the Italy game or were they just kind of patching things up and getting through the course final? I think the likely or a likely change might be Niamh Charles coming in um i think esme morgan was brought in for physical profile purposes i think she was lax in possession um but i think she defended well and i think her pace um is what her pace at center back is is one of the reasons why she's in the squad and i think it's interesting that serena bigman well i say interesting it's very compatible that serena bigman used her in the game where England were getting stretched in behind.

36:10She came on to add legs and pace to the back four. I think we all know Jess Carter massively struggled and Jess Carter is prone to a very inconsistent performance. And that was last night. She was very subpar. And I think Niamh Charles is an obvious and quick fix, solid solution. I don't think Esme I would be surprised if Esme Morgan came in from the start just due to lack of experience and she did show some very lax moments in possession in very dangerous areas. Nonetheless she did come on and defend really well so yeah I think sort of patching it together at the back might be a Niamh Charles solution but they will have to assess because there was a lot of wounds taken last night.

37:01Leah Williamson's ankle didn't look great neither did Lauren James's ankle um I don't know what the hell's going on Lucy Bounders hamstring slash quad um but yeah no I think there's going to be definitely some deep tournament methods from the medical department coming into play soon what just very quickly on that Izzy what do you mean by that is it is it quite literally the kind of modern 2025 version of patching yourself up and carry on i.e that you might have medical ways of you can get through this game you can get through the next game is that is that what you mean yeah yeah i mean the game ready machine which is a very expensive ice machine that pumps cold water icy cold water around an injured area via a sort of specially shaped pad that fits on a knee or an ankle or a quad and that um that will be used and they will have those in abundance they're brilliant because you can just lie down ice the injured part and there we go um they'll be used recovery pumps, massage, cryotherapy, ice baths, probably hot and cold therapy.

38:04And then there will be probably some more structural medical issues to deal with, probably to assess and see how England fare. But yeah, everything. Kitchen sink. There we go, Kit. Bathroom reference. Kitchen sink will be chucked at the players in order to get ready for the next one. Kit, was there, I mean, this is obviously very difficult and there was loads of madness going on. Was there any sense about those injuries last night after the game? Were you able to shout at any players in the mix and ask Leah Williamson how her ankle was? Just to explain the bathroom reference, in case listeners are confused, which is obviously far more important, my hotel room has a sink next to the bed rather than in the bathroom, and it's caused great laughter amongst Tom and Izzy.

38:48And it's in the background when we record this. Anyway. I'm glad you explained that, Kit, because now we can reference it all the time, which is only better for me and Izzy for the rest of the tournament. But please, yeah, tell us a bit more about the far less important matter of England's captain's ankle. We didn't get much from Serena after the game in terms of how severe it is. She just said Williamson's turned her ankle, which we could all see. Williamson said herself that she kind of staggered on until half-time and extra time, didn't she? And she said after the match that it would have been selfish if she had carried on.

39:25So that shows she's at least fairly injured if she was able to kind of rationally say, no, I don't have the fitness to go on. So I think her in particular, it will be a concern for the semifinal. Obviously, I imagine it'll take her at least today to work out how serious it is. But the whole team, we all were rightly lauding how they're throwing themselves at everything and playing through bleeding and injuries. But it's going to take its toll on them. And as Izzy says, and there's more insight, and it's going to be a few crucial days of recovery. And I don't know if Izzy can weigh on this as well.

40:06I imagine when you're in the last week of a major tournament, people will, to an extent, play injured, surely, if they can. Yeah, I mean, people play injured through a club season. It's about, I mean, I am not in any way a doctor or a physio but there are measures you can take injections and tablets um that help you kind of play through pain if you like and there will be that I would imagine there will be a lot of that going on um but it's just how much can you function for me personally I can always I could only I played injured quite a lot and I can only do it if I can get through the match day minus one training session without going oh my god i've got a problem and if you can do that i think you can play the next day because you'll put sort of trial whatever you're going to do to reduce the pain on that training session once you get through that you've got it clarity in your brain to go yeah i'll be all right very interesting a big couple of days of recovery kit just very quickly because we need to let you both go and get on with your days very early on friday morning just give us a quick sense of what england can expect from their semi-final against italy both of you did such a brilliant job of previewing the challenge that we'd get with Sweden I was there watching it going this is exactly what the guys said what what can we expect from the match with Italy uh having watched their game their course final against Norway a team that doesn't doesn't build up quite as quickly as Sweden doesn't quite have the physicality of Sweden um played a fair few kind of long balls out out to the wings and looked to get flick-ons that way was something I noticed um but yeah in simple terms a team that's not as strong as Sweden or France so far, came second in a weak group.

41:54I came second in Group B, which was fairly weak. They did have Spain in there, but they only drew of Portugal. So a game where England would be favourites depending on who they can get on the field. Izzy, would you agree with that? Yeah, I think Italy, quite unorthodox in the way they play, but they have a little bit of a magic in very unexpected moments. So you have to be really on guard. they've got some players who can hurt you. I think Christina Giurelli, obviously she showed that she could do damage. She's done damage throughout the whole tournament, played quite a subdued role as a nine, but trusted by the manager to turn up in the big moments, come up clutch.

42:36And she's done that. I think their midfield is their strongest area. Cantore coming inside and Severini is a really good player. I really rate her. But I do think Italy lack overall athleticism and physicality. And I think England have, if England come into the game in good shape physically, I think they'll absolutely dominate Italy. But who knows how England fare and how they shape up. And Italy have had an extra day's rest as well, which helps when nursing those sort of wounds mid-tournament. But no, yeah, I think you have to be wary. Italy are on an upward trajectory. They've got momentum. They're feeling good.

43:13They've got really good team morale, which can get you quite far. I think we've noticed that in a tournament. So yeah, no, England obviously will be on guard but they don't pose near enough of a threat for me as Sweden did or France did or the Netherlands did so we will see. So if I was asking you for a prediction, Izzy, you'd be saying an England win in the semi-final? That's exactly what I would say. Kit, would you agree? As long as it, yeah, I just don't think it's less stressful than last night but yeah, I think England would win. Even if a player or two is missing I'd still have England as favourites.

43:49I think I'd agree with you, Michelle Adjumang, off the bench to be a hero once again. I think it lies she did in that quarterfinal. We'll leave it there. Still loads more to discuss. Izzy Christensen and Kit Shepard, thank you very much for joining me. As I say, loads more insight from Kit and Izzy on the Times website, so keep an eye out for that. We'll be back next week for that semifinal. Oh my God, I'm nervous already. We'll see you then.

44:20Hannah Prevett here from the Business Podcast. Join me for a special episode with PwC UK's Marco Amitrano and WPP's Michael Frelisch, recorded at the Greater Together Conference in Los Angeles, California. We'll discuss how partnerships between the US and the UK can drive economic growth and shape the future of transatlantic collaboration. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. back to school is busy enough the last thing you need is shopping that makes it harder whether you're moving into a dorm your first apartment or just getting organized for the semester wayfair makes it easy to get everything you need in one place furniture bedding storage decor study essentials all at prices you'll love with fast shipping before move-in day get everything you need for back to school season shop wayfair.com today Wayfair, every style, every home.