England U21 Champions and all change in the Championship

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1:24Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times. England's under-21s are European champions again. Substitute Jonathan Rose scored an extra-time winner to ensure a thrilling game was won 3-2 against Germany on Saturday, sealing a second successive championship triumph for Lee Carsley's side. On today's show, we'll discuss that final and we'll take a look at what's been going on in the Football League, just 32 days until the new season begins. I'm Tom Clark and joining me today as usual we have the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson and the football reporter who was there to witness England's triumph in Slovakia it's Hamza Kalik Lunach fresh off the plane he's back he's brought the trophy with him Hamza hello Hello well actually funnily enough right so two years ago the team actually broke the trophy Anthony Gawling dropped it and the glass in it smashed and this year they'd almost forgotten it Really?

2:19Yeah yeah yeah so everyone was just on the coach ready to go back to the team hotel for the quick party and then to fly back home and then one of the staff sort of walked back and went, we need the trophy through the mix they left it in the dressing room yeah, but in two years time who knows maybe they'll actually they'll keep it safe and secure and no sort of problems but this time, yeah we'll get on to the goals for two years time in just a second but firstly what a game what a great game we previewed this match with you on Thursday's show and you said how excited you were and you were quite right to be excited.

2:54England, the deserved winners. It was obviously a game that were ebbed and flowed, went back and forth. Deserved winners in the end, do you think? I think on the balance of play, yes. In the first half, they were spectacular. They scored two in the first half and it was 2-1 in the first half. But they really should have been three, perhaps four up. They didn't convert a number of their chances in the opening spell, which was spectacular. given that they played Germany in the group stages and they were run over by them essentially by a second string 11, a completely rotated team it was really impressive that first half then the second half well usually Lee Carlson is quite happy to talk about tactics and he essentially said don't ask me what happened in the second half because I don't know that second half was quite tough and part of the reason for that is because Germany were brilliant they really pushed England back and they struggled to retain possession.

3:47So in the first half, they weave through the pressure really, really well. But Germany's playing the second half with their pressure was brilliant. And then they, because of that late goal in the first half, they attacked the second really well, got their equaliser. And then at that point, you're thinking, oh, what do I do? I know people don't want to hear too much about how you write the match report, but in the 65th minute, you're going, I've got to write something here. And it's 2-2 and I don't know whether to go with Germany win and England produce a valiant effort or do you just sort of think, oh, maybe they'll get it.

4:15and you jump in and say, England produced a fantastic... Knowing you as I do, Hamza, I imagine you probably had like four laptops out with four different versions on the go, all prepared. I did have my laptop and my iPad. For big games, I bring both out, right? A dual screen. And I did have dual tops, so like if I had one version, if Germany won, and one if England won, and then I think I sent the England version in quite earlier. So I watched the last eight minutes or so, just eat my apple. Confident. Confident. I've always got fruit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was good. Stay healthy. Gregor, Hamza's right.

4:45This was absolutely bonkers but brilliant game. Yeah, you're right. And it kind of ebbed and flowed. Also, the way that Germany struck the bar at the end of both full-time and extra time. You know, you could look at it. You know, there were moments where they rode their luck as well. But I think Hamza's right on the balance of it. There were just those kind of longer periods where England were like irresistible. And so many ways that they kind of could cut through Germany too. I thought Norman Coffey is like, my god he's engine and he's speed and drive and he gets the ball and knocks it down the line and charges and he was like all game as well straight into extra time he was outstanding and then players like McAtee as well who were kind of can produce a little turn or a little Scott as well can kind of turn to break the press and they can cut through the centre of the pitch as well so there was certainly not a one dimensional team England under Carsley and yeah it just augurs so well for the future.

5:43I'm really hoping Brook Norton Cuffey makes it all the way to the top because he did have a brief loan spell at Lincoln so we can claim him as well as Brendan Johnson and Morgan Rogers. I think Millwall as well. He's a Genoa now, so another player who's gone up and up and up. And abroad to get experience and first team football at the top level, at the top league. Yeah, there's a few of those. Kwanzaa's going to join them now. You've got Charlie Crestwell at Toulouse. Three from Marseille now Yeah, so I mean Angel Gomez who was in the previous group is there Sorry, yeah But yeah, CJ Egan Riley is heading there from Burnley So yeah, you've got a real sort of international contingent But yeah, I'm glad that you picked out on Alex Scott Because I think him going off was an important moment for Germany I thought in the first half he was sublime Over the tournament he's grown It's really interesting as well We discussed him the other day, right?

6:35Yeah But yeah, as in the way that he's developed given the promise that he arrived from Bristol with at Bournemouth you're thinking this guy's going to go straight into the senior team and then a few injuries have hindered his progress but in that match alongside Elliot Anderson I'm sure Thomas Tuchel watching on would have been impressed because he showed physicality, real sharpness the few touches at Drew Fowles are outstanding they're really really smart stuff yeah I was really impressed by him I know Bournemouth sort of internally think that he could be the best signing of the lot and obviously they've just sold Hoyssen to Real Madrid and Zabarny could be on his way to PSG and Kierkegaard has gone as well yeah Kierkegaard has a bit they feel his potential is so so high wow and I think we did see it I think we saw him and Elliot Anderson as well and they're such kind of all rounders they can do the dirty work the defensive stuff and they actually relish it they enjoy it but they can also play like number 10s Or they can be a box-to-box number eight They're really kind of, as I say A very modern, dynamic All-rounder midfielder So I think both of them have been Huge plus points, but there have been a lot of them I mean you talk about CJ Egan-Reilly there His only minutes In the final right at the end, kind of up front And you think about Taylor Harwood-Bellis wasn't there Jared Branthwaite Jared Branthwaite wasn't there Adam Warton Yeah, but I'm talking about central defenders So the guy who's just gone to Marseille from the best, a stalwart of the best defence in the history of the championship, who've just won 100 points for Burnley, just got a move to a Champions League club.

8:17And he was, what was he, fifth choice, centre-half? I think that's just one example of the depth that this England squad have, these young age groups. Yeah, young age groups and serious depth are good themes. But Hamza, just quickly on Harvey Elliott, a player that listeners are very familiar with, very much bossing that first half and those opening moments, scoring one, creating one. What have you made of him in the tournament? And it's been a theme of some of your pieces from the tournament as well. What might the future hold for Harvey Elliott? I've been really impressed with him because as you can imagine, around a year and a half ago, he was trying to make overtures to Gareth Southgate.

8:53He was saying, I'm playing well for Liverpool. I want to go to the Euros. And because, well, he didn't get picked for the Euros. He had an injury towards the end of the season, I think. And then he hasn't played that much for Liverpool this season. The majority of his appearance has come off the bench. And I think his starts in the league actually came when Liverpool wrapped up the league. And likewise in the Champions League. Once they were top of the group, then he got his start. So it was quite a difficult season. So a player that was expecting, having had his first big season in terms of minutes and influence, has now dropped off.

9:23He said before the start of the tournament, I'm going to have to think about my future. So he's in this difficult spot. And then at this tournament, even though he's a senior player there, even though he was in the group two years ago, even though he was trying to play for the senior team and he's playing in the Champions League, you'd think that someone like that might go, well, Nonny Madweke's in the senior team, Rico Lewis isn't here, the guys that I was with have moved on, and you might not be a good traveller. You might just sort of be a bit grumpy and think I'm a bit too good for this. And he didn't.

9:58He took this as a moment to really show leadership and seize the moments and be the main man for the team. And the experience, right? Yeah, yeah. I've played Champions League, guys. I can do this. I can run the show in an under-21s final. It's fine. And it was the decisiveness that really impressed me. It's just when England needed goals, he was there and he took the game of the neck. In the Netherlands match, he just ran in from the way and dribbled forward, bang, goal, just after they had equalised. He's been so good in this tournament. the only concern I have with him at Liverpool is that he's just not that big and in the Premier League when you select a team you need loads of fast, strong guys it sometimes just does come down to that if you're a very technical team there's only a few shorter guys that you can put in the team because when you defend set pieces it becomes a weakness and if you've got Salah who's not the tallest and then McAllister in your team you're thinking oh actually on the set piece I don't know if I can afford to have Harvey Elliott in midfield and then the team as well they don't play with the number 10 which is his best position you can't displace Salah from the right wing because he's Mohamed Salah and then you've got Florian Verts coming in and Dominic Sobosla who they paid big money for and McAllister a World Cup winner so how are you going to get a spot in the number 8 position really difficult spot at Liverpool which makes me think that maybe a move would suit him and I think he's of that level the decision making he shows is brilliant you just have to accommodate for him because of his because he's not the fastest because he's not the biggest.

11:29Physicality, yeah. He does put himself around. If you look at his defensive numbers, tackles, interceptions, presses, it's not like he doesn't do the work. It's just that he's not the biggest. Interesting. Gregor, what do you make of that idea about Harvey Eller? And also James McAtee, another one at Manchester City. When you look at that team, you've talked about Alex Scott as well at Bournemouth, hopes for the future. Elliot Anderson got that move to Nottingham Forest and excelled Hinchelwood at Brighton. You know, they're at the clubs where they're going to get the chance. Elliot McAtee are at clubs where the competition is really fierce.

11:56and that maybe there's you know only needs the slightest question mark to go oh maybe I can't do it what do you think about those two guys think they've got it at the highest level or should they be looking for moves to the Premier League or the Premier League clubs I think the kind of truth and the reality is that they probably have to prove elsewhere that they've got it to play at the highest level because of all the points Hamza just made about opportunities I mean I feel like it's been really impactful as a substitute I mean not just the PSG game but like for a long while and he did you know he did start more games on their clock the season before I think he got an injury in pre-season it was even kind of billed as quite a big season for him last season they had an opportunity here under a new manager got an injury and now like they're signing spending a lot of money it's going to be very hard for him to get a start so I think I agree I think it would probably be best for him to try and try and move on and where could you see him because it's an interesting point Hamza makes about the style of player that he is and we were actually discussing it on the editing floor the other day he's a great talent all the technical ability just that slight physicality but you start to think also do teams play with a Harvey Elliott player enough that there's a lot of them out there you know Hamza you start talking about accommodating people and stuff you know can you think of teams off the top of your head I mean you know just spitballing here but like Newcastle for example a team just behind just behind them in Liverpool in terms of standing and aspirations and stuff but would he get in their team the first thing you think of Newcastle's team under Eddie Howe Physicality Exactly So there are a lot It's true You might think It might be another one Going abroad It could be again And he would thrive He's technically outstanding The game In the semi-final The goal you just referenced The way he turned It's a little pivot on the spot Because he's such a low Centre of gravity And it's a Little moment Where he just Lose a defender And like Completely wrong foot him And then he got the acceleration To get away And then the composure He could have laid it wide And he just slotted it In the corner He's technically outstanding And a lot of the time When he came on for Liverpool as well there was like he kind of like built a relationship with Salah he wasn't replacing Salah he would play just inside him and it was like they would find another way to create an overload down the right and often he would combine with Salah I bet if you look there'd be a lot of assists for Salah's winners and stuff so he's also really intelligent he's smart he's going to have an outstanding career I think but this next move is quite a big one for him he could go abroad and I think as I say make a really big impact in another big major European league or he could go to a kind of more mid-ranking Premier League team and if he makes the same big impact then maybe maybe he might earn another move to a top level team in the Premier League as well Very interesting we're talking big picture things as we always do coming back to the game just before we hit record on this show we were talking about that winner I was maybe being a little bit harsh about Jonathan Rowe's header I thought it was slightly scuffed a brilliant header but part of me was like he's meant to put that in the other corner isn't he?

14:56Am I being too harsh? I thought it was a bit harsh I did you know he did fall he did kind of slip in the moments before the header but I felt like he kind of Don't get me wrong in lots of ways it's the perfect header but I'm just looking at it going he's scuffed that so well that it's almost too well Lance replace the word scuffed with Lance Hamza an extra time winner against Germany and you're complaining I'm not complaining it's a good goal I'm not complaining it was a great goal it was a great goal it was a great goal I mean the cross he also really nailed the I'm going to look and see if I'm offside look before celebrating it was fantastic he got that down to a tee absolutely brilliant finish Hamza we're talking about the future of some of the players let's just finish with a word on Lee Carsley the manager two back to back European Championship titles speaking in the Times website and in the paper this morning in your piece about the idea of going for a third do we think his future is remaining with England then obviously in the second half of the show we're going to talk me and Gregory are going to have a chat about the Football League jobs coming up jobs will almost certainly come up in the Premier League this guy's hot stuff isn't he?

16:02Yeah I mean he signed his contract his extension to 2027 just before the tournament started but he'd largely sort of agreed the terms of it beforehand and he said in his interview when he signed that contract like my future as EFA I think it suits him personally he really enjoys development football he has hinted before that maybe he'll consider doing some senior stuff he really enjoyed the senior experience with the senior team, the England senior team he had a brief spell at Brentford I think it's very interesting that the way that his team play actually mirrors something that Matthew Benham said before he was talking to Ian Graham and said in football essentially you need to be hyper extreme with your message to managers because the optimal level of risk taking is way beyond what most managers think.

16:53They're far too conservative. So you have to tell them, first minute you try and score, 90th minute you try to score. If you're 1-0 up away to Real Madrid at the Bernabeu with 10 men, you're still trying to score. That's the message you need to convey. And I think actually, Carsley generally sort of reflects that really well. Of course, in the second half, they did have CJ Egan Riley up front and they were hanging on a bit, right? But they were still, they were trying to make attacking substitutions. They were still trying to attack. I think in the long term if a Premier League club tried to lure him he might be interested in that but it'd be a bit further down the line he's already set his focus on the three-peat he was looking at the squad almost immediately after the tournament ended actually before the tournament ended he's got the list of the players for the next tournament in two years time in Serbia and Albania he was having a look what should we and he's thinking about how do we build the squad and you're thinking dude like the final is coming up so he's already got his mind on that I mean I guess if Thomas Tuchel leaves after the World Cup he might be in the conversation for that job as well because the benefit is of course that he's worked with the 2023 cohort he's worked with the 2025 cohort he's worked with the senior team I mean players like Saka as well know him from age group development stuff as well the staff is generally the same as well so you have Ashley Cole who's really developed as a coach according to people at the FA they've been really really impressed with him they seem as potentially again someone who might be able to become number one down the line you have the performance staff as well that also worked with the first team so yeah I think he's in that conversation with England as well but yeah further down the line I think he might move out but for 2027 I think he's pretty settled unless something big comes in something big comes along Greg a final reaction to you from that on Hamza's points about Lee Carsley's future?

18:48Yeah I mean I just feel like the whole kind of experiment or brief spell he had as interim manager also sort of revealed that he's not the kind of enormous personality that a lot of owners of football clubs or the director of the affair or whatever look for, they want someone who projects a message who you know represents the club and all that he's quite kind of mild mannered reserved I'm sure he's forceful behind the scenes and he's got his you know he knows what he wants and he believes in the and kind of taking risks as Hamza said and playing an expansive style of football but those reservations would still be there for me I feel like he's he's not the he's not a Thomas Tuchel he's not going to he's not going to start digging people out I'm not saying that's the right thing or the wrong thing but those things would still be a bridge to be crossed I think for him as a manager in the future he does deliver like quite powerful things in quite understated ways and like he mentioned just before the final he said oh yeah after the match I said sort of tongue in cheek to the Germany manager I'll see you in the final and then he said well I knew that we'd be in the final but I didn't know if they would be you're thinking it's quite a punchy punchy thing to say and he sort of said it you're like whoa that's pretty strong man like that they'd just beaten you they are on a 20 match unbeaten run and so the previous yeah so Germany are on a 20 match unbeaten run the last time the loss was actually against England in the 2023 tournament and he's saying yeah I knew we'd be here I just didn't know if you would be and in that match as well the first half Germany were very good and the second half England improved but that was the first time they got a real stern talking to and the message at half time and after the match was that he was really upset that they didn't play their way that didn't attack.

20:43He said he's okay with playing and attacking and then losing because that's what you do. Because you've taken the risk in the first place but you can't play without risk. You can't play with fear. And Harvey Elliott said that after that Spain match in particular, the fear is gone. And for the senior team now, I think that's the important thing that these guys in the 2023 cohort need to take forward. They need to be fearless. They can't be inhibited by the shirt and the weight of expectation like previous groups are. But maybe it helps that they're all younger. I mean younger people actually studies have shown they take more risks as you get older as your brain develops you become a bit more sort of risk aware and risk averse that's why Gregor always sits on the fence on this podcast just waiting for come on come on come on too easy and I guess as well like we asked did I mention this the other day we asked James McAughty who's your favourite captain he just went Kane and he's like who else is there and he's like it was John Terry we're like yeah but as in the interesting thing there is that these guys they might remember Iceland right well they probably do remember Iceland but they don't remember all this sort of like glorious failure crap right they just remember the teams getting to any glorious failure Scotland have glorious failures they remember the team getting to two Euros finals and a semi-final of the World Cup and a quarterfinal of the World Cup that's what they remember and they remember winning at age group level under 19's Euros under 20's World Cup under 21 zeros twice this is what these guys know now and if they can take the senior team and bring that same attitude with them then maybe the senior team will win something there you go the message is clear time to be fearless lots and lots of excellent analysis from Hamza Khalid Luna on the Times website now before we take a quick break just another reminder if you are a rugby fan and getting Lions fever make sure you check out our sister podcast The Ruck Alex Lowe and Will Keller have put together brilliant series chatting to former Lions and it's the perfect listen to get you excited for the series just search for The Rook wherever you get your podcasts it's time for a quick break so it's time for the quiz question Gregor who am I talking about when I say a former footballer who won 17 caps for England's under 21s between 2004 and 2007 and played for West Ham Sunderland QPR Reading and Southend United find out after the break

23:11Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works. covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

23:48You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash start now. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

24:36Hello and welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Gregor Robertson with me. Hamza Khaliq Luna has gone off to write the football newsletter, which you can get in your inboxes later at 5pm. But thankfully, Gregor's here with the answer to the quiz question, which was? Anton Ferdinand. Anton Ferdinand. Best who kicked Hamza out of the room for that. He probably didn't even remember 2004 to 2007, England under-21s. Gregor, I wanted to quickly ask you about the Club World Cup. Obviously, we've heard from some of the guys out there in the early rounds of matches.

25:05We'll hopefully hear from them again in the coming days. We've got Pep Guardiola admitting that Manchester City's Premier League campaign could turn out to be a, quote, disaster because of their participation in the Club World Cup. Then you've got Enzo Maresca, the Chelsea head coach, saying it's a joke that Chelsea had a two-hour weather delay. I think we all probably agree with him on that, to be fair, in their match against Benfica. Lots and lots to read from the guys on the Times website, like Martin Samuel, Paul Hurst and Pete Rutzler out there. You also have Jurgen Klopp saying it's the worst idea in the history of football ever.

25:39Some big names and some quite punchy views from the guys. But at the same time, it feels like the interest is ramping up. The engagement is one way of getting interest in the tournament. It's to have massive delays and weather chaos. That's one option for FIFA. Just your reaction to some of these points that are being made by these big name managers, because that does add to our reaction to it back here that it is a bit of a joke, this tournament. Yeah, I mean, Pep, first of all, you get the impression he was kind of speaking quite like off the cuff and saying, you know, we're doing our best. This is the first time anyone's ever done this.

26:15That's why there's a lot of uncertainty. Yes, it could be a disaster, but we're doing our best to enjoy it. He said, you know, there was a line where he said, you play your best football when there's enjoyment. you take pleasure of it so it's like we're having barbecues drinking some good wine you know all the players families are there they are it's almost like a hybrid between pre-season tournament and like off-season and I suppose that's what it is so then he also caveated that by saying you know then we come back we have hardly any rest at all and we're into it yes it could be a disaster by Christmas so none of us know I mean but at the same time for City they have been playing well they're getting their module back yeah so it could work in their favour looking like yeah 5-2 win against Juventus the guys reporting on the Times website they look good again yeah it also kind of prompted them to do a lot of their business very early their squad will have had like more football and longer together than as usual so these things could all go well as well so it is an unknown though on the other part I mean I can absolutely see why a manager would say this competition is a joke like why have you held it in a place where extreme weather is commonplace six games now have been delayed by extreme weather this one up you know two hours it is a joke how you play almost a full game and then sit in the changing room for two hours I was going to say regardless of the level that's impossible no it reminded me of like pre-season tournaments when I was a kid where you would play like three games in a day right and like your legs were gone by the end of it but like that was just what you did because you were a kid but yeah it's crazy I mean even I was watching that game with the Benfica as well and you could tell even just watching it on telly that the heat was a factor.

27:55You could see just in the levels of sprinting and all that stuff. Well, I didn't even mention the heat. We're talking here about like thunder and lightning and, you know, actual threat to life and safety. So, yeah, then there's the heat. And obviously then you look forward to the World Cup being there next year. I think Pete Rutzler pointed out that four of the five locations aren't going to be locations next year. So, you know, you would hope it won't be quite as impactful in the World Cup next year. But yeah I mean It's just another example Of everything Being overlooked In favour of money Yeah Like Martin Samuel Wrote a good piece In his column In the Sunday Times One of his bits In the column In the Sunday Times Where he was saying You know He'd love to see This next competition The next iteration of this In four years time In somewhere like Brazil Where there's like Real fervour One of the nations That I've shown You know The fans have come And they would show The passion and all this but then he sort of said actually the likelihood of that is almost zilch because what can they charge for tickets?

28:57How can they get the revenue in? It's likely to be in the States again because that's where they can draw the money in to have the massive prize money that's actually bringing the clubs there in the first place so who knows what the future is but it's been certainly an eventful start to the Club World Cup. Absolutely, you can read all the latest news and reaction from Martin Samuel, Paul Hurst and Pete Rutzler at the Club World Cup on the Times website now and we'll hopefully hear from the guys in the coming days. Gregor, it's time. We've kicked everyone else out of the studio. It's just me, you and producer, Neil.

29:25It's time to talk about the Football Bloody League. Friday, August the 1st, Luton Town take on Wimbledon to kick off the League One season and in turn bring the return of the Football League. I've got to confess, as much as the whole like, oh, Club World Cup, football never ends, when Lincoln's Fix just came out last week, I was well excited. Proper, proper excited. Neil's nodding along about Blackpool as well. Neil we've got a not very exciting idea of going to Blackpool away in December obviously being from the North West I'm like Blackpool away that's a nice trip good chippies in the area meet in the seaside December December away absolutely fuming but I might be tempted but Gregor let's quickly run through some of the happenings that have been going on there's been a lot of them in the championship yeah we've got about five minutes for you to get through all of these a big theme of our EFL shows last year was managers and the choice of managers whether teams were going old guard, experienced head, unknown from somewhere in Europe or young up and coming manager and there's been a plethora of different managerial changes and a lot of them seem to be fitting in to the younger camp, you've got to say.

30:34Yeah, well definitely. We start with Will Still then because he's 32, he's gone to Southampton, made waves, people will know him for being the young guy, young English guy who made waves in France with Reims and Lenz and kind of had a bit of an attachment to the Championship Manager football game because he said when he was 17 sort of playing Championship Manager helped him decide he could be an analyst and then become a manager. Basically what we all thought when we played Championship Manager and Football Manager over the years I could do this. He's since downplayed that a little bit. That was like one interview that blew up a little bit.

31:09Doing press conferences in the mirror while you're brushing your teeth. Yeah, so he's quite an exciting one. And there'll be a lot of interest around him and Southampton, I think. Who else? Chris Wilder's departure was a real surprise from Sheffield United. I think it was something like in four of the last six seasons, their points hall would have won promotion. Do you not think because of it and just because of, I don't know, the state of the club and I was almost, this sounds stupid to say, kind of happy for him just in terms of like a separation type thing. I'm sure he's probably fuming but it just felt like it all got too much and the way they lost that final and the way they fell into the playoffs it all just felt like it needed a bit of a change I mean it's quite a bold move to go for Ruben Sellers who had been battling at the bottom of the table with Hull for a brief period in the Championship last season and is not exactly Mr Experience but I don't know there's part of me that it made sense in a weird modern football way Well look, the club has obviously taken over midway through last season They were still not that much known about The kind of owners that the new consortium were going to be After lots of chaos under Prince Abdullah And the fact remains They backed him in January They spent quite a lot of money They signed several players on loan As I say, in any other season There's a good chance that they would have been promoted automatically Whatever way you look at it It's a bit mad really Because he's kind of a guarantee Of competing again next season But you just I would say this suggests that there would have been Confrontation down the line Like about signings, about the direction of travel Probably their use of data You know, how much His fingerprints are on every sign And his control, he's a manager In the old sense of the word Doesn't want to be a head coach So I would say, in that respect, you're probably right Just cut ties now as opposed to having conflict further down the line.

33:12But yeah, Ruben Selis was also kind of strange that he departed Hull City as well. That was an odd one after he came in and kept him up. They've since appointed Sergei Yakirovic. He joins from a team in Turkey. He's also managed Dino Mozagre in the past. He's Croatian. Don't know that much about him. They're hoping for the Reggie Labris Sunderland factor, aren't they, with a manager no one's ever heard of that takes them to the Premier League yeah who else Julian Stefan has replaced Marty Sifuentes at QPR he's former Strasbourg and Rennes manager he won the French Cup with Rennes in 2019 got Rob Edwards in at Borough as well say again Rob Edwards yeah Rob Edwards after Carrick's gone Watford again another change Tom Clever he's gone they've hired Paolo Petzolano Uruguayan who's been like Mexico Brazil Spain again Top marks for taking all the tricky pronunciations mate by the way, you're doing really well Ryan Mason to West Brom, that's interesting Tony Mowbray's second towards end of last season, surprised a lot of people you know, just after getting back into football, Ryan Mason former Spurs coach under Ange Bostokoglu and a few managers before that got Liam Manning in at Norwich as well Liam Manning from Bristol City to Norwich, that's a bit of a surprise I mean Bristol City you feel like, I think he's from that part of the world too he started out at Ipswich but he got Bistola City to the playoffs last year he did feel like they kind of punched well above their weight to do that and Norwich possibly have a bit more backing and then Ruud van Listeroy finally has left talk about Danny Roll moving from Sheffield Wednesday who are in an awful state to Leicester potentially so I make it nine so far but it wouldn't be that surprising if we're getting towards half the division of change managers basically over the summer.

35:08After a summer, we discussed all season, sorry, after a season, we discussed for most of the season was a bit bonkers for how many changes there'd been anyway. Loads of changes. Like the whole bottom half of the table that we're talking about. Oh gosh, yeah. All of them, wasn't it? Apart from Moussinho maybe at Portsmouth, I think, in the end. By the end of the season we'll return to that theme, I'm sure, once we preview the Football League. Can't be long now, Gregor. It's only a couple of weeks. Got to get planning that bumper episode of nine hours of me and Gregor just chatting nonsense about the Football League.

35:36Gregor, we'll let you go in a second but speaking of managerial changes just after this podcast you are off to meet the new Brentford manager Keith Andrews speaking of interesting appointments this is absolutely fascinating isn't it? Sure it is yeah I mean Keith Andrews someone who at cricket I played against someone who was at MK Dons Are you going to remind him of that in the press conference today? Probably not maybe in a quiet order. Why Keith you not you not megged me once in this game can I ask him your question please? He probably tries to forget about that part of his career as well because he did go on to bigger and better things after that.

36:09He did slightly. But yeah, he's someone who's really interested in that there was a kind of, when he retired and there was a group of, I remember again, a group of pundits. I remember Rio Ferdinand saying this, like that you can go and be a pundit for a while and maybe earn a job off the back of it. And it didn't work for a lot of the guys who were the ex-England internationals. But he analysed the EFL brilliantly. Yeah, he was excellent. First guy and on TV. And he thought he's a smart guy. and then he decided to go and to be he kind of coupled it with being an assistant manager under Stephen Kenny at Republic of Ireland he worked at MK Dons briefly with Carl Robinson he was on the coaching staff with Chris Wilder at Sheffield United in the second half of last season then he became set piece coach with a slightly bigger brief at Brentford but he's not got much experience so to be, you know, Brentford are often higher in-house they kind of you know they try to have good people on board that can potentially make a step up but this is brave this is very brave you're doing it in a summer where they're losing some of their best players most probably they lost Thomas Frank obviously to Spurs who's been there for a long long time and they're hiring someone who's never been a manager and really has limited experience even as a coach it's very very bold but it's going to be very interesting very interesting indeed given all the clever things you've said on this podcast I'm shocked no one's taken a punt on you as a coach but I'm glad they haven't just yet Gregor Robertson and Hamza Khalid Luna thank you very much for joining me that's all for today's show tomorrow we launch our dedicated Women's Euros podcast with special guest columnist Izzy Christensen the former England international will be with us throughout Euro 2025 and joins us to preview the tournament and assess England's hopes of retaining their title make sure you join us for that you do not want to miss it we'll see you then Thank you.