Eze shines but is Frank out of his depth?

0:06Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times. Arsenal are six points clear at the top of the Premier League. table, Eberichi Eze is their hat-trick hero and Thomas Frank is under even more scrutiny as Tottenham manager. On today's show we'll discuss the North London Derby, Aston Villa's win at Leeds, another defeat for Arna Slott, more St James' Park magic from Newcastle and loads loads more. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the football reporter Kit Sheppard and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robson is here as usual.

0:41Team, I'm nearly doing my times two speaking because there's so much to discuss, so much to cram into this show. So let's get straight to it, to the Emirates. Alison Rudd, you were there for us covering this match for the times. 4-1 to Arsenal. I think 4-1 was just about right, actually, for this game. You could have been 4-0, let's be honest, without that remarkable goal for Tottenham. Would you agree 4-1? Accurate score, fair score? Well, I mean, if you've got expected goals of 0.07, then getting a one was quite the boost for Spurs. But it was a wonder goal. That's why it came low on the expected goals and probably one of the nicest goals ever scored in the North London derby.

1:21But it was not enough to save Thomas Frank from the scrutiny you mentioned in your intro. But yes, so Tottenham set up with five at the back. So you sort of got a heavy hint there that they might be going for a nil-nil. certainly going for absorbing or right early on I thought actually you were going fair enough you know pretty negative but they're doing alright well at least they've got a plan you know because because let's face it Arsenal squad are much better than Tottenham's so what do you do and they're away from home I mean they're away from home and they're good away from home but they've still got to be clever about it so but the bombardment starts almost from the first minute there's a there's a strike from Declan Rice decent save from Vicario and you think I'm not sure they're going to be able to keep this up But if your plan is to absorb early pressure, frustrate the opposition and catch them on the counter, do a bit of high pressing, use the channels because you've got wing backs because you're playing three or five at the back, depending on how you look at it.

2:22But they didn't do that. There was no forward thinking, no forward movement, no holding up of the ball, no winning the duels when the ball went long. It was simply one dimensional football. and so it's sort of very slowly unravelled and you felt as soon as Arsenal made the breakthrough that the floodgates would open and they sort of did. I don't know if four goals counts as a floodgate. In the context of a North London derby, I think it does. Yeah, definitely. And so, yes, 4-1. Yeah, generous to Spurs probably would be my... Generous to Spurs. Greg, what do we think of this game, watching it? Just a galling afternoon for Tottenham, wasn't it?

3:05You see your local rivals stretch their lead at the top. You barely fire a shot. And the card that gets the hat-tricks, the one you thought you were going to sign in the summer. So, yeah, pretty shocking for Tottenham on all counts. And then Arsenal, again, just really impressive, isn't it? I thought it struck the perfect emotional balance of the occasion. I think maybe in the past with our Ted Sarcell, we thought they can be too emotional, especially in games like a derby where the tension's a bit heightened. But yeah, as I said, they kind of got the balance perfect. Interesting you say that because I felt, I agree with you, on the pitch they got the emotional balance correct.

3:44But why on earth they did all the ramping up beforehand? Well, you didn't like that. No, I did not like that. This is the North London derby, one of the most iconic games of English football. Everybody knows what it means. If you're an Arsenal fan, you know you don't like Spurs. If you're a Spurs fan, you know you don't like Arsenal. Why you felt... They ramped up the... They sing this ridiculous North London Forever new anthem and pretend that it's 100 years old. It's ridiculous. But they ramped up the acoustics on that so high it was distorted. I mean, it was... It was desperation. Turn it down!

4:22It was desperation to make it seem a raucous atmosphere. And completely unnecessary. The atmosphere was going to be good. Red fireworks. And then this huge banner, which was supposed to be a sort of a prod at Spurs. Completely unnecessary to remind your own fan base. So there's a degree of orchestration about the emotion at the stadium. But there always is these days, isn't there? No, it's worse there. It really is. Anyway, come back to that point. I don't disagree, but I thought with that that maybe in the first half hour it was nil-nil Arsenal players are doing the hyping up to the crowd, which they always do.

5:04And I thought they don't need to do this. They're better than Tottenham. If they turn it into a game of emotion, that might bring Tottenham into it. But that didn't happen. Arsenal were better. Eze scored his goals and was almost swaggering off. He wasn't like, rah, rah, rah. It was just, yeah, I've scored a hat-trick. because that's where I say they kind of got that emotional balance. It felt like even if it was manufactured in the stands, they channeled that enough, but it also didn't overwhelm Arsenal to the extent where it brought Tottenham in at all. Yeah. Just, Gregor, on the Arsenal performance, it was very clinical and very impressive.

5:35As Kit said, Ebrecht Ayers, swaggering his way through a hat-trick, the quick feet, the finishing and his celebrations. It just looked like a guy on a level now where he's like, this is my absolute stage now, wearing the number 10 for Arsenal in a North London derby as an Arsenal fan. He was superb, I thought. Yeah, he kind of, it was the day he sort of realised and showed that he belongs at the very top table and he can decide games in those clutch moments. He's a joy to watch, isn't he? He's just like so much sort of freedom and happiness on the pitch, you know, that big smile and kind of a swagger.

6:13He's getting that certainty about his finishing. We were watching it in the office and everyone was, we had some Tottenham fans in there and they were going, oh, Eze, oh, goal. And it was like, you kind of knew, you just dropped the shoulder, pass it into the net. Even that one where the quick feet, I think was the second goal. And you're just like, ah, that is what an elite level footballer does. When they get the ball and you're watching it, whether it's at home or as an opposition fan or a fan of the team, and you're like, this is going to be a goal. This is going to be a goal. It's the moment of kind of, where it's poise, like under pressure.

6:46You can just take that extra touch in the box if he needs to, or he's just able to, even the third one he kind of kind of ricocheted off his legs but he still managed to just balance himself and sweep it into the net it was like yeah just really really classy but like overall Izzy obviously was the star of the show but there were Arsenal have been criticised this season about how dangerous they are from open play they've been so a lot of focus on their set of plays and what they've needed to often break down low blocks this wasn't the case in this game there were moments where they just played the forward pass just took a little bit more risk and incisive pass often through the middle Saka was brilliant again as well Trossard we said before he's someone who you thought would be put into the shadows this season he's been outstanding you look at their squad and there's just so many different options and different skill sets I know I've been banging on about the squad but you look at the bench, Ben White former right back who now can't get in the team Mosquera, great signing we've talked about Louis Skelly was the left-back in the Bernabeu last season.

7:50Christian Norgard, Brentford's captain, who's barely had a kick all season since joining them. Waniere, Madueke, Dowman, Martinelli. And then missing from the squad entirely, Gabriel, Odegaard, Martinelli, Gokerez, Havertz, and Jesus. Sorry, not Martinelli, but like all those players, the club captain, the best defender. Martinelli had just come back, yeah. Gokerez, the leading, the star striker, supposedly, you know, signed in the summer. It's an amazing statement, isn't it? To win in this fashion without all those players on the pitch. I think Gregor makes an excellent point because the build-up to this, I was saying, how are they going to cope?

8:26Are they going to absorb the loss for Gabriel? Because he's been so, in every way, defensively fantastic, aggressively fantastic, and just being present for the set pieces has made oppositions quake. and you kind of think, well, maybe, you know, maybe they'll be putting in ineffectual balls and they won't, you know, they won't cause as much problems as they used to. Will it, you know, how will they adapt to that? They didn't just adapt to that. They looked like a team that had never, ever relied on a set piece in their lives. You know, four goals that were creatively gorgeous. Even though I loved the Saka free kicks early in the first half where they were doing that kind of load of players on one side and he was clearly going to shoot, I think.

9:08And then he got it wrong the first time where they like trotted across Vicario's goal and then he shot and put it over and then he had an identical free kick and then he did it again, hit the top corner, Vicario made a good save so it was like they were just messing with Tottenham heads Gabrielle's not here, it's fine, we're just going to pretend we're going to do set pieces and we're actually good enough to not do it Just very quickly on Eberiche Eze, in 2025 only Erling Haaland with 25 Salah with 23, Brian Buma with 21 and Antoine Semenya with 18 have been involved in more Premier League goals than Eze with 18 as well, 10 goals and eight assists.

9:40So Gregor is very much talking to that point that he is on the stage now where he belongs. Just let's keep talking about Arsenal because I want to come back to Tottenham then. I mean, is this another one, Gregor, where five days is a long time in football, me, you and Alison were talking about predicted tables and things and the strength of Manchester City beaten at Newcastle. Yes, they've got Chelsea behind them, but I don't necessarily think anyone thinks Chelsea are going to be titled contenders, do they? Am I wrong? If they win next Sunday, massive effort, obviously, then we'll see. but until that happens no I wouldn't say I could say no I don't think they are it does look ominous now I mean Arsenal it's not just the depth when they considered a goal you were like it came from nothing too well that's a bit reductive it was a great Paulina just looked like a man possessed great tackle great finish but that's the only way they could get a goal in this moment brilliance from nowhere so when you're that that solid defensively like Timber as well he is so good he's so good both going forward and defensively outstanding defensively but he's creating such a great kind of relationship and partnership with Saka doing that right as well the way they combine they're just yeah ominously good and Hinkap that's Deby's go you've got to see all of this is framed against Tottenham I know you're kind of delaying this but they had four touches in the opposition box like but it's a big it's a huge but this is exactly and this is why it's about the week for Arsenal and not just the North London derby because they've got Bayern Munich on Wednesday and then they've got Chelsea the following weekend and if they win all three well they've won one of them but if they win all three then you have to say they're in they're in a good position to win the Champions League as well because of that strength that ability to rotate and play different types of football they're resilient as well I think again It's a bit stereotypical of Arsenal, but in the last couple of decades, they're a bit soft-scent when the pressure's on, Arsenal will crumble.

11:43And that's probably the best argument at the moment for them not winning the league. It's just they'll stop themselves. However, in the rare moments they've dropped points this season where it was that late goal at Liverpool early on or the 2-2 at Sunderland recently, they've come back and gone on runs both times. So even that argument seems pretty flawed. So yeah, it's tough to know. Exactly. Arteta was asked, how does it feel? six points clear and he says it means nothing and he brought it back to dropping points against Sunderland I mean that wasn't the question Do you see that as a good thing like a relentlessness from him or do you think that's a panicky thing I think he introduced the Sunderland result because he was proud of how the team did respond to losing two points, dropping two points and having an international break to dwell on it, the losing of those two points and then coming back and dominating the North London derby as you say that is a big week for Arsenal so maybe we'll hold off on crowning them champions just yet let's come back to Tottenham then I thought Tom Olnutt wrote a very good piece on the Times website from this game he was there with you Alison and there was a comment Great company it was too LZ We had a nice natter Good chat And what was lovely what was really lovely so what Arsenal do is they have they have pairs of seats so that are separated so you go in duos so they sit people from the same paper together.

13:03Some clubs don't bother, but at Arsenal they do. So he was sat on my left and when Richarlison well, we could both tell it was going to go in, that Richarlison lofted the ball from near the halfway line. We both looked at each other and went, wow! You don't get that moment of interaction with someone from another paper. What a privilege it is to do this job, eh? Absolutely wonderful. But he wrote an excellent piece of analysis on the situation with Thomas Frank. And there was a comment from a Times reader below the line in the comments section saying, I hate it when we lose, but I hate it even more when we do not try to win.

13:42Which I do think sums up perfectly the issue that Thomas Frank is facing at Tottenham now, Alison. And I know you are a founding member of the Thomas Frank fan club, but he's under serious pressure now, isn't he? I think he is. I think he is. And he looked different. I mean, it's a humbling experience, of course. And he was bound to find facing the media tough but when I got when I got home one of my sons said to me how was how was Thomas mum they always ask me how it was you know yeah yeah she's your best mates yeah no I care and uh and I said well he looked sort of a bit like Jesus on the cross because he he he came in and the first question was what disappointed you the most and he opened up his arms sort of in a messianic sort of style and leant forward with his long hair and just sort of went, oh, what a question.

14:36And then spent the rest of the press conference trying to make sense of something that I think he was genuinely shocked by. I don't think he thinks he made the wrong decision to play five at the back necessarily. He played it once before against PSG in the Super Cup and it had worked. But it had worked then because he used it as an attacking formation, not just a purely defensive formation. And he'd got joy down the flanks with it. But there was no joy anywhere with this. Do you think there was, you said earlier about a lack of, you know, no one holding the ball at Richarlison not having enough touches despite scoring a great goal.

15:14Was there an idea? Because I couldn't see one watching it from the office yesterday and neither could some of the Tottenham fans who were there with me on the subbing desk. What was the idea? He said before kickoff, he felt it was the basis for an aggressive approach. Right. But there was, it just didn't transpire. And the way it worked out with where personnel were on the pitch, it meant his midfield were outnumbered at all times. Now, I like Benton Kerr and I like Paulinha, but on their own, as a duo, they were outnumbered. And that's because of the formation. So he didn't see that coming, which felt strange.

15:49And then obviously he made a big tweak and went four at the back in the second half. But of course, Arsenal scored before they had a chance to remind themselves that four at the back because they scored straight away. And then the game's over. It doesn't matter what tactical tweak you make. I mean, Vicario said afterwards, we apologise to fans, we didn't fight. So I think ultimately... That's quite damning, isn't it? The manager, when a player is coming out and saying, we didn't fight, sorry to the fans in a derby. And Thomas Frank agreed too, they didn't fight. Gone for Roy Keane there, by the way, sorry about that.

16:24He just, when really pushed on that, he said, I just need to watch it again. It'll be hard to watch again, but I need to watch it again to work out. So I think it unraveled in a way he didn't expect it to. Maybe if you do go for that formation and that approach, what you need are all your players really buying into it and really, really fighting and being aggressive and winning second balls and any duels that you get a chance to win. they just were not just were not doing that but I do think I know I'm a frank apologist but I do think if you look at the two teams I mean there's a massive gulf between the two of them they're just I actually think but there's been gulfs before I think Thomas Frank had a better team at Brentford a better group of players Thomas Frank had a better team at Brentford than he has now not yet if you go for personnel wise I think so well I mean Bumo, Wisser and Bumo Tony when he was there.

17:23Attackers, I would say, I agree with you. But the rest of the... Although they have Solanke back and Madison back and Kulicevsky back, that's not true. But they weren't there. I know they're not, but I still think that's a stretch. I think, like, Alison's right. The idea or the system can, like, have an effect on the players. And, like, if they're not either fully buying into it or they're confused by it or they feel like it's leaving big spaces in the pitch, it's hard to win the duels. If you're looking around, if you're the two players in midfield and you don't feel like there's anyone really around you, then why are you going to go and press?

17:54You're just going to get a play around you. There was a moment in the first half I thought was quite alarming. And it kind of speaks to the way they set up. Spurs set up now under Frank, always. And a bit of a half-heartedness of their approach. They had a free kick midway inside their own half on the right. And it took ages to take it. They set up to go long And push everyone into the Basically box in the corner A bit like modern kick-offs now This is from a free kick That you could just play around the back And start a move Like a passing exchange Took H to take it Kicked it Went too long And it went straight out for a goal kick And then Frank ran out of the technical area And he was like Hands out stretch like that Saying As in like Press You know Stay high Stay high Stay high And Arsenal just passed the ball through them Like no one no one did it so it was like the initial thing is why are you why are you making the game in open play a game of set plays it's so like so like tiresome is that tactical naivety then is that tactical limitations like what are we putting on in here well there is an aspect of it are we looking at it going oh yeah this works at Brentford but this doesn't work at Tottenham yeah I think so yeah like there is I keep harking back to the game I was at against Aston Villa where the whole first half was a bizarre game to watch.

19:20They were just knocking it around the back, waiting for a run that they could play a ball long. That's basically a set play in open play. There's no real freedom or creativity. You're just saying, keep the ball at the back. If they're not pressing you, there's no one coming to open up space, then you're waiting for a run in behind. It's just quite basic. There's no freedom. There's nothing that's off the cuff. And if you're telling your team to play long from a free kick inside your own half and box them in to win a throw-in in the corner, it's not that thrilling. Yeah. What do we think then for the season ahead?

19:58Tottenham in ninth at the moment. Matches to come. PSG away. Fulham at home. Newcastle away. Brentford at home. We talked so much last season with Tottenham and Ange Postacoglu. How does he keep his job? He's going to win a trophy. They're going to get relegated. It was complete chaos. Absolutely one of the craziest things I've ever seen. what is this season then for Thomas Frank how does he, if we're saying he's under pressure is it style? Does he have to get them through in the Champions League? Does he have to get them up and around that top six conversation? What do we think he has to do to stop the questions being about his future as Tottenham manager?

20:32Has to somehow find the right balance between the things that we actually all said at the start of the season and it looked like he was doing and done really quickly about making Spurs a serious looking team. or like you know having that resilience that he was talking about because there have been games where they have shown that I think the Leeds Away game like there's games where they look like they've really battled and they've done things that the Spurs haven't really done certainly didn't do much under Ange so like finding the balance between that which was his first job and a bit of a sense of adventure like just something that will get the fans on board because at the moment they really aren't do you agree with that?

21:10no I mean that's the history of Spurs isn't it? The fans are very hard to please. They want everything. They don't just want silverware at any cost. They do seem to go in very extreme cycles though, don't they, with managers between I know this is maybe the most extreme of the two back and forth, isn't it? From Ange Postacoglu to Thomas Frank. Where do they go after this? I mean Klopp? You know, I don't know. What's the... I think the sensible thing to do, I genuinely think the sensible thing to do is to stick with Frank and allow him to work it out because I genuinely think he has the intelligence to do that.

21:46Very interesting. Tottenham fans do get in touch with me. Tom.Clark at the times.co.uk. Gregor, just very quickly on Manchester City's defeat at Newcastle. Quite unlucky in this game, potentially with some decisions not quite going their way. But is this a reminder to all of us last week getting excited about their potential that maybe this is still a work in progress with Pep Guardiola? Or was this just a good performance from Newcastle at home and City a little bit unlucky? Maybe a better both. I mean Newcastle were very very good and like you know when they when they are doing the kind of full high court press and they've got that much sort of intensity about it and St James' Park is behind them they're a tough proposition for anyone and City really struggled to play out and play through that yeah I think ultimately you know I think there was a stat that Haaland had scored more goals than Newcastle on his own this season like there is he had that one chance when he was played through the middle didn't quite connect with it right but they're it seems a bit easy to say there's a over-reliance on Haaland but if he's not scoring the goals then we're not entirely sure where they're coming from Do you think there was a template there on how to keep Haaland quiet?

22:54Yeah that's what I was wondering whether you were getting at stop Haaland stop City Yeah because they did bully him not every team has the personnel to do that Stature to bully him Exactly yeah and also we've seen games this season where teams have tried to do that I think the Brentford game and yeah come on and it's almost like antagonise them and it's backfired. So you've got to be a good defender to say I'm going to bully you today early. Yeah, we should say as well fixtures coming up as Kit mentioned as well. Arsenal Chelsea coming up and Leeds against Manchester City. So by the time we next speak about the Premier League title race it could be all back on.

23:28Let's talk about Leeds and their match against Aston Diller losing 2-1 two brilliant goals from Morgan Rodgers. But just very quickly on Leeds Gregor, I thought this was a really good performance. I was watching this game I thought they were front foot they were all the kind of cliche some of the things we just talked about with Newcastle as well Ellen Road a fortress all those things we said they'd need to do but this felt like a game a missed opportunity for them in terms of getting some points taking a lead Villa looked a little bit rattled John McGinn had clearly had too many iron brews after that Scotland success waddling around in midfield looking a bit hungover a little bit of a missed opportunity for Leeds I think well yeah there's been a few of them what is this they've had one win and five defeats in their last seven games but you look through them and like there's been quite a few of them I've been I've been tight I think the Tottenham game Bournemouth draw at home like they they are competitive they are in games but the problem for Leeds now is there's some cracks beginning to appear at Ellen Road like whether it's the kind of abuse of Brendan Aronson whether it's Daniel Fark kind of saying things that he said last season that were like oh you know yeah this is Leeds you know saying we're the most emotional club in Western Europe and everyone because they're so desperate to get back into the Premier League like yeah you're probably right Daniel now it's like it's like it's a real criticism it's like we need you know should just say just for full context in case listeners have missed this Daniel Fark called on Leeds fans to be respectful and treat American international Brendan Arison as a human being after the fans called for him to be substituted during the game Fark went on to say I'm worried about how we are as a society, also with the social media stuff and always how we are as human beings because win, draw and lose, I always go around and clap hands and show my appreciation to the supporters.

25:14And I still saw plenty of that, but there's plenty more negative comments too. I mean, as you say, very outspoken, you know, he's just lost the game, but it's a bold move to take on Leeds fans at Island Road, even with the context. He's defending his player, but there have been, as I say, he's under more and more pressure. a couple of weeks ago as well he was saying like that because now he said I think he said it to a German newspaper or something if Leeds are in now they're back in the Premier League people think we should be competing for the title and playing in Europe so he's like he's often referring to the thing about Leeds and where they feel they should be and how that you know clashes with reality and I think he needs to stop talking about that he needs to just focus on getting some points for his team because it's like it's almost like there is a bit of a clash with Leeds fans and they don't want to do that.

26:08And it does sound a bit like getting your excuses in early doesn't it? I mean he's right, Leeds are an emotional club, they were on their way up and they are now they're back in the Premier League they do feel like, I remember speaking to a fan before the season for a preview and he was like you know we do deep down realise that if we finished you know 17th that's a job well done but there's also a part of us thinks we should be competing to be playing in europe last time when they came up with bielsa they finished like ninth or something uh they always feel they should be looking up and the reality is not they're on the pitch they're struggling for goals and ultimately they don't look solid enough at the back at the moment either and this fan came coming to the touch line there's chants from the crowd about when you're going to make a sub like that's not that's what leads do not need they need leads they need elon road to be the fortress.

26:57Next couple of fixtures for Leeds, Manchester City away, Chelsea at home and then a home banker against Liverpool at least to turn around their fortunes. Kit, you saw this match as well. It was the Morgan Rodgers show in the second half, wasn't it? It was. I think Donio Marlon made a really good impact as well. He's absolutely rapid. I don't know why they don't play him more often. He's amazing. He seemed to help out Ollie Watkins, who again didn't seem to have the best game. He looked very rusty. That's one to keep an eye on. But yeah, I mean, Leeds have their problems and they're a need promoted team but it's another win for Aston Villa as well they're up to fourth now um which I suppose is becoming their level Andre and Amory which is great but it feels a long time ago now that that start of the season when they had that losing run um they they seem to have really sort of sorted themselves out um I think with with Leeds as well of just a couple of little individual mistakes that are kind of the classic ones you don't want to have when you're you're the newly promoted side trying to avoid relegation for Struick having conceded the free kick for that brilliant Rodgers free goal amazing which is compounded he just tapped it yeah I'd love to know he ran over to Villa's set piece coach on the bench and gave him a high five but I don't know what coaching he would have given him for that I don't know how you it's not like a move I don't know what I think Rodgers said I might be getting this wrong but I think he said he'd never shot from a free kick before or something oh really so maybe it was austin mcfee giving him the inspiration he should do it clearly but yeah you're right rogers fantastic afternoon on what like there was a few over the weekend of english kind of attacking midfielders we talked about as well he kind of states a claim with all that narrative we've got for five months for the next english score wait kit greg is so excited about it the plethora of english talent in attacking midfield roles yeah morgan rogers very much becoming the main man for Aston Villa.

28:51Loads more still to come on the show, but we're going to take a little break, so a little quiz question from Bill Edgar's column in the game. Which team has won 11 times away from home in 2025, managing to score at least twice without reply on all occasions? Find out after the break.

29:15Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Kit Shepard, Alison Rudd and Gregor Robertson with me he needed a couple of guesses actually only one guess but you got it in the end Gregor the answer to the quiz question which was Crystal Palace Crystal Palace another away win for Oliver Glasner 2-0 at Wolves and typically impressive Palace away performance but Gregor a sign of the massive job that Rob Edwards has got on his hands because at the start of the season if you were thinking Wolves might be in relegation trouble a home game against a with respect to Crystal Palace mid-table team these are the games you've got to get points and it sounded like they never were in it No I mean look they were in it for an hour and they had some half chances but ultimately they don't have the cutting edge they don't have the same sort of attacking talent that Crystal Palace have this was a big game for Pino great goal and involvement in the first in Miro's opener Crystal Palace are a really really good team and Rob Edwards said it's not going to be a quick fix I think we all knew that and I think really there's not that much surprise in this I think we saw fight and we saw spirit and we saw them in the game but we saw that the biggest issue is really a lack of quality It is great Crystal Palace doing well isn't it but I mean there are some fans including our colleague Joe Hare who's one of the editors on the desk, who's a Crystal Palace fan.

30:48And yesterday, when Leeds went 1-0 up, we were working together and he went, ooh, don't like that. And I was like, what? And he's like, well, you know, relegation and all that. I was like, Joe, you're not... It's so negative. What are you talking about? You've got one of the best managers in the league and a brilliant, brilliant team. Mark Gay back in the team, Gary Jacob, writing a piece on the Times website about it's going to be the best, biggest free transfer fight ever, isn't it? Every single club in the world is going to try and sign Mark Gay. Does he want to go to Liverpool now? I mean, I wouldn't be.

31:16I wouldn't be. Certainly that's two gratuitous Liverpool digs already, Gregor. Let's just quickly run through some of the other games on Saturday. Brighton 2, Brentford 1. Alison, how's the fantasy football been going this season? My cat's doing really well. Yeah. Your cat has their own team? Yes. Right. Is it actually just your better team? Is that what you're saying? No, no. The cat chooses. Oh, my God. So we have a big whiteboard. and we divide it. Is this like the octopus thing where they kind of pick a treat and that's the transfer for the week? You're making it sound silly. We take it very seriously.

31:51How dare I make the idea of a cat fancy football team sounds silly. And he chooses with his dreamies which are little cat treats with I think a touch of catnip in them. Yeah. And he circles the board, looks at it and he usually eats Erling Haaland. Right, okay. Solid, solid choice. but he's he's 7th yeah he's 7th thousandth out of 2 million wow that is impressive it's working what are you yeah well you must be struggling because you have your kind of very principle decision no Manchester City players you can't have I'm having a year off for my mental health very good very smart so living through my cat anyway okay well I'm glad I asked because the reason I ask is that two minutes before the deadline this week I had Danny Welbeck and Verbruggen in my team and then I changed it at the last minute and took them both out My cat would never do that.

32:40A goal for Danny Welbeck and a great penalty save for Bruggan in this win for Brighton. Fulham getting a win against Sunderland at home. They've done it again, Alison. The flip-flop of Fulham. They'll lose next week and it'll be panic. Are they in relegation zone? And then they'll get a home win. Marco Silva's done it again. It is interesting. It is interesting how lots of people have different views on football and what is needed and not needed. Who's doing well? Who's not doing well? Good manager, bad manager. the whole world even people who think rugby is the best sport in the world they everyone knows Fulham need to buy they need to refresh the team they need to have some impetus some competition for places they need a bit of sparkle and I think they'd probably be alright if they didn't but they certainly should be higher up the table and to do so they need to start splashing some cash Pete Rutzler reporting on Friday about discussions over Marco Silva's new contract I don't know whether if I was Marco Silva I'd have signed that new contract and Hill I saw some splashing of that cash Great cameo by Chukwesi It's cross, absolute beauty You can't defend that Roof's trying to come out and he's like no I can't come out that far Ballard's like I can't touch that it's going to the Nsenwoji Jimenez tapping, brilliant cross Big win for Fulham Sunderland missing out on some points but they're still having a fantastic season Let's go to Bournemouth West Ham 2-2 Kit Shippard, you were there Yes, it was very wet Very wet I mean you're heading down the route of this being like your moniker you've already rang me once and said I've stepped in a puddle I've taken my shoes off it was really in a puddle we need to get you some waterproof shoes and a big coat don't we you're always talking about being wet I can't control the weather you can prepare for it son other than being wet what did you make of this game Bournemouth destroyed West Ham for a draw Callum Wilson scored two great goals and Areola made 10 saves at West Ham and I'm not sure what the nine other players plus the subs did.

34:42Bournemouth without Semenyo, we should say, which could be a teaser for not too distant future. Still, especially in the second half, were pretty fluid going forward, created heaps of chances, didn't get the win through a combination of poor finishing and then just Areola having an unbelievable game. and then West Ham it felt like kind of classic Nuno in the most critical version of that, they were 2-0 up a half time, Wilson scoring those goals, took Wilson off after 52 minutes which seems strange in itself, maybe you're worried about his fitness a little bit, Nuno didn't give too much weight in it afterwards but we know Callum Wilson's injury record's not great, maybe they didn't think he could go to 90, want to defend the lead but he brought on Thomas Suchek for Callum Wilson, who's obviously a midfielder.

35:31And from that point on, West Ham had no attacking outlet. It didn't have much before, but without Wilson, they had nothing. And they were just sitting back trying to defend their two-goal lead and you were just watching it with half an hour to go. And it was like, it's not physically possible to hold out. And they didn't, and they were able to escape the point. But did they look better? Before that, though, in the first half, Wilson leading the line. As you say, fitness record. He was interviewed by Gary Jacob last week, talking about still dreaming of the World Cup. I don't think he'll make it.

35:59Fair play to him. I know. But I was also then, so then back it up by scoring twice. I saw him score and I was like, fair play, mate. Good goals too. Very good goals. If he can stay fit, do they look like a better cohesive team? Yeah, for sure. If he can stay fit, I still think even in that first half, it was two bolts from the blue from Wilson. It was a punt from the goalie. Yeah, a punt from the goalie, which is slightly mischarged. Nothing wrong with that. No, no, not at all. And then Wilson, it wasn't a volley, that hooked left foot shot for the second goal as well, again out of nothing. That was it again for West Ham in the first half.

36:36And great, your team are on fair play, but it was more down to Bournemouth not creating heaps in the first half, letting the ref get onto their skin a bit. But they're a good team. They're a good manager. They worked it out. So you'd say as much as we're talking about the bottom of the table, Burnley and Leeds both dropping into the relegation zone, West Ham only just out of it on goal difference. You're not kind of coming in saying West Ham fans panic over two wins and a draw. You're going to be fine. You still think there's worries. They still could do the signing or two in January. And I think I think you would say in defence of West Ham in this game is that missing Pakitar, who's been really important for them in this recent resurgence.

37:18they switched away from the 4-3-3 they have been playing because Pacatel wasn't available, went to a back five so all being well if he stays fit and stops picking up yellow cards which is why he wasn't playing in this game for the five yellow card suspension they should be okay they're certainly in a much better place than they were kind of a month ago when Nuno first came in but yeah, not at the woods yet I'd say You've got to remember that Flores lost 5-0 under Nuno there last season to switch to the back. I don't think West Ham have the players for that, really. They're struggling for certain halves, as it is.

37:53I know sometimes you can think, okay, we'll overcompensate and play three, but I don't think any of them are really comfortable in that. So I think that's probably a one-off game plan for them. You could say it worked, but it was lucky. Just about at least some encouraging signs for West Ham United. Let's finish with a win for the team above them. A win. Let's talk about the win. Nottingham Forest winning 3-0 at Anfield. Alison, those predictions we made on Thursday's show, particularly mine, I said Liverpool, it's going to click. They've had the international break, the new signings. It's going to work.

38:273-1. We've had a few listeners get in touch, including David, saying, Tom, before the inquest that Liverpool starts, make sure there is a word about Nottingham Forest. So here is the word. Gregor, it's a great win for Sean Dyche, isn't it? A brilliant performance. A classic Sean Dyche job, but a fantastic, fantastic, win and fully deserved yeah and like they looked in control like even you know another goal goals changed the game and and like liverpool dominated at 75 possession like played three times as many passes like you know if you look at that you would think liverpool were were the complete dominant force but forest when they had the lead looked in control and like sean dych was pretty open and honest about it afterwards too he said we're gonna he said we changed the tactical side today I told the players we're not passing it we're going to go long because Liverpool we're going to press the life out of you and that's exactly what they did at the start we said that this is amazing isn't it this is the thing with Arnie Slott's comments is that he's just literally telling managers how to play against him it's absolutely fascinating to watch it unfold though absolutely remarkable yeah and like they did it well though there were like sequences where you think Craig that's just like a percentage ball and Jesus did something to to keep it just about like for a runner to run onto just so the Forrest managed to grab onto position they did it for the the move that led when Canati kicked out for a corner like needlessly there was like a few a few passes that were like nothing balls like almost a clearance and they made it something and they got a corner from it and they scored the goal like so they all bought into it that's the thing we were talking about game plans Thomas Frank's game plan they didn't really see any evidence of Spurs buying into that Forrest like they seem like there's a bit of returned to something a bit more familiar like it was with Nuno this was a bit more of an extreme example and Sean Dyche keeps making the point we've got a lot of really talented players yeah Morgan Gibbs-White in the goals three in a row I think now although he's got a reputation and the sort of you know the idea of the way he plays we're not going to play like this all the time and actually I've been at a lot of their games this season since he's got a job and they haven't they've knocked it around well and they've utilised like the quality to have in midfield Anderson and Gibbs-White and players like that and with Hutchinson came on so it was a great game plan it was an obvious game plan and it worked yeah fun fact about Sean Dyche having won with Burnley in January 2021 and Forrest Sean Dyche is the sixth manager to win away to Liverpool with two different clubs in the Premier League any guesses on some of the others just off the top of your head absolutely no chance that you're going to guess these Ron Atkinson Aston Villa and Coventry Kevin Keegan Newcastle and Manchester City Gordon Strack and Coventry and Southampton Martin O 'Neill Leicester and Aston Villa, Carlo Ancelotti, Chelsea and Everton.

41:13Just thought that was a fun little stat. Here's some other stats that aren't as fun if you're a Liverpool fan. Liverpool have lost back-to-back league games by a margin of three plus goals for the first time since April 1965 under the great Bill Shankly and Liverpool have conceded nine Premier League goals from set pieces excluding penalties this season, as many as they did for the whole of last season. Four of those have been from corners. I mean I'm not sure what else there is to say about this Liverpool team and some of these performances it is an unbelievably bad title defence so far what are we on 60 feats from 7 games other than that win against Aston Villa I mean it is flabbergasting how bad it's going for Arnes Lott and these new signings we talked about Thomas Frank being under pressure is there any world in which Arnes Lott is under pressure as Liverpool manager this season?

42:02he's under pressure now I don't mean to lose his job but he's he's under enormous pressure and I meant to lose his job I don't think so I think like you're talking about you know Leicester's title defence where you're like you know facing relegation and I don't think that's going to happen like when Ranieri gets the sack I don't think that's going to happen when you've just won the league in your first season and they've had I know like we've spoken about it before but they had endured the tragedy that they did in the summer absolutely yeah I think now that is the context that you've got to consider.

42:37And there's sort of, we're already getting to the point where there's a realisation that the 450 million quid they spent made more problems than solutions. And you look at the full-back area now for Liverpool and it's insane. It's insane.

42:54Fringpong can't stay fit and he can't defend. Kierkegaard can't defend and he looks like he's overawed by the whole thing. this might sound blasphemous after what's just happened in Scotland but I think Andy Robertson is getting to just about done you see him dangling his legs you see him, the way that he was just strolled past by Hutchinson, yeah maybe he had a few beers in the week as well, and he like just stretches out an arm desperately to try and grasp on them, he's not moving his feet aren't moving as quick as his mind like, although he helped when he came back in for the Real Madrid game and you think, well yeah I don't think he's the solution for the rest of the season you'll be a problem too you're playing Sabozlai there he's like complete waste of one of your best players he's the best player of the season yeah he'll do a good job but he's not a right back and Conor Bradley can't stay fit they have huge problems at full back huge problems and Kanati like although he started the season disastrously then you thought oh he's found his feet and then he's just you know reverted to disaster and it's such a bizarre situation when like PSG Real Madrid were looking at him he's in the last year of his contract he's kind of sounded like he was pushing those talks away and now you can keep pushing them mate I don't think, it'd be bizarre if he's got a new contract at the moment and then, there's so many issues, there's so many issues and like, football is amazing isn't it, how that can you can look at a team that looked like you were setting up a dynasty in the summer strengthening from a position of extraordinary strength and now you look at the team and there are just problems everywhere.

44:32Yeah, Paul-Joy's writing on the Times website with a kind of to-do list for Arna Slott and mentioning getting Alexander Izak up to fitness. I mean, got to be one of the more disastrous impacts of a huge, huge signing ever, ever made. He also says drop Canate and beef up the midfield because, I mean, the midfield is also another point. When you look back at the title win, the midfield was fantastic. They dominated games. and it yeah that's the one area actually I wouldn't like I think if you revert to last season if the players are fit and you can do that and you don't have to play Sabozlai at right back like the Real Madrid game you showed you think oh no that's still a good foundation in midfield the defence is a major worry there's no solutions there Isak like as much as it's it's been a really turgid start for him he's still a great player I think it'll happen do you think he can play with Eketike long term which is the other issue that Martin Samuel, our other colleagues highlighted on the Times website.

45:29Martin wrote his columns saying, was this the plan or was it just like a moment of opportunism when they thought they weren't going to get him and then, oh no, we can get him. It feels like the latter. You know, yeah, I don't know if they can both play in the same team. But that's a good problem. In the context of everything else, that's a good problem. Not if you're then playing Izak and not playing Ekotiki, who's probably the only signing who did start well, and you're not playing the one signing who did start well in order to play the guy who cost you£125 million. I know Slott said that, we're playing him to get him up to speed, but he won't do it forever.

46:08If he thinks the best team, the best line-up to win him a game is Ekotiki, not Isak, he'll do it. And just on that, playing Isak to get him up to speed, that goes back to the point of how Liverpool behaved this summer and not getting their business done earlier with Isak, like they could have by all the reporting suggests scott isak earlier in the summer they really wanted him and really wanted to get it done and they just had to pay a little bit more but they didn't and now they're paying the price of him him not being ready i know he's had a little bit of an injury as well um and yeah that that's just really interesting greg has kind of alluded to it because for years we've we've held up liverpool as the this almost perfect team when it comes to transfer business and spotting the rough diamonds not overspending and selling well and this was meant It's meant to be the summer where because they've sold so well in PSR, they don't need to worry and they can spend£150 million.

46:59And it looks like they've screwed it up at the moment, which is, yeah, just remarkable. Absolutely remarkable. Alison, I asked a couple of colleagues on the desk who are Liverpool fans before coming up here. Does Arnie Slott get the season? So does he get the season regardless of what happens? Not, hmm, probably. Well, I've got to ask the question. Yeah. But if Liverpool are below halfway and struggling in the Champions League, I think there's a small chance that they might lose patience. I mean, we've touched, it would be madness, but football is mad. Football is mad, isn't it? Just to remind that, I know the league table is really bad, but the four points are third.

47:40Absolutely. And we talked about this last week, but I thought the big turnaround win was coming with this game. I thought they were in a run of fixtures where they were going to make it happen. They're going to click. And then they lose 3-0 at home to Nottingham Forest. and be completely outplayed. They can continue to not click in the league if they get their act together in the Champions League and make a good run in that. They can't really, not at this rate. No, but players like, what, can't what? They can't not click in the league when they're 11th. Oh my God, are they going to be Tottenham of this season?

48:07Is that what you're saying? Arnestlott's the new Antipostokoglu. They're going to win the Champions League and finish 14th. Players like Florian Wirtz, he's more comfortable playing continental football than Premier League football. It could be that it clicks better in Europe with the Liverpool history. Only do it in the Champions League, darling. No, but you're saying what will save his job? I think it could be a very lacklustre league title defence. But if it looks good in Europe, no one will consider sacking him. But if both competitions just drift away, he will be under pressure. It's incredibly toppy, Gregor.

48:42But this is what Liverpool fans are talking about. I don't think they are. No, they're not. Yeah, there are loads of them on social media. On social media. Yeah, but they're still Liverpool fans. They're still Liverpool fans. I'm not saying the ones in Anfield are. And as I said, the ones I asked on our desk said, no, he gets the season. You're not hearing boos at Anfield. You're hearing murmurs and like, oh my God, what's happening here? You're hearing stunned silence is what you're hearing a lot of the time. Because they're the champions and they spent 450 million. And they've lost six out of seven.

49:09It's incredible. Yeah, but Chris Slott doesn't go from the manager who inherited, like, took on one of the hardest jobs in football modern footballing history replacing Jurgen Klopp and win the league in his first season without hardly making a signing it was incredible and putting your own tweak and spin on things and everything going my god what an appointment this is to being a bad manager so they're not going to sack him as I say the only way that Arnie Slott does not last a season is if it looks like they're going to be relegated like they could they could be down in 15th for the rest of the season and not sack him I'm certain of that how do they turn it around then with what they've got because I presume you can't then go and spend another 400 million on the couple of defenders in January.

49:49How do they... They do need a defender or two in January. But how does he change this between now? There's a lot of games to come between now and the January window opening if they are going to sign a defender then. What does he do? Change system? Drop all the new signings? Go back to what they were last season? Yeah, I think that's right. Well, he's done that already, hasn't he? Well, it works. They obviously can't do that because they're missing two stars, obviously one very in sad circumstances and the other, Trent Alexander-Arnold, leaving for Real Madrid. which I think from a creativity point of view increasingly looks like a massive, massive loss.

50:19So everyone's fit. Who do you play? Bradley? Who do you play? Gomez? Van Dijk? You're talking about the defence? I don't know why he's ignoring Gomez completely. Gomez. You can argue maybe technically Gomez isn't up there with one of the great defenders of all time. But what he does have is heart and passion and the fans want to see a player like that. One of the problems we've had this season has been just forget whether you've got Sir Bosley playing at right back or not, the tweaks across the team, newcomers not working. What's really worrying is that sense of not having the physical, being up for it physically and emotionally and looking second best.

51:02Forrest looked like they wanted every ball. They won every duel. They just looked bigger because their shoulders were up. They just looked like they really wanted it. And it's hard to understand why. Even at Anfield, the players, that was the saving grace. At Anfield, the crowd gave them that, you know, peacockness. They haven't got it at the moment. But someone like Gomez, the fans love him and love his attitude. The fact he's stuck at the club and everyone wants to see him score that goal. You know, it would lift the team and the crowd. But instead, you've got a scenario where Slott is telling off opposition teams for playing sort of football he doesn't like.

51:46That's faintly ridiculous. If you now know teams are going to face you and feel they can win through sheer boisterousness, then you've got to pick players who've got the heart for the fight. And Van Dijk, he's a god. He is a god and he's done wonderful things. But at the moment, he's standing there as if he's the teacher in a school play yard and he doesn't like what the kids are doing. He's like he's too posh to get emotional on the pitch with them. He needs to he needs to show a bit more oomph as well. It's you can't just stand and look at it disintegrating. You need players in the team who have that connection with the crowd.

52:27Izak looks like he's he hasn't made that connection yet. And that would help him enormously. Darwin Nunes wasn't a great player but the fans loved him because he tried really hard not all the fans loved him he was a cult player and you need to forge those connections and show that you're up for the fight it isn't all about we've bought some really technically gifted players it's about wanting it and showing that tough though it's been and grief is exhausting you've got to pick the players you've got the physical ability to overcome that obstacle. Are there any parallels with this team and the 2020-21 team for Liverpool?

53:10Because I know there's lots of differences, different manager, different players. But the last two times Liverpool have won the title, they've then nosedived in the season afterwards. Is there anything in that? Well, I mean, it's probably harder than you think to keep a dynasty going. because you have the target ahead of you once you achieve it and the longer it's been since you've won the league, I think it's psychologically inevitable you relax because you've done it. And there was so much, you're right, because there was so much concern at Klopp leaving that for it not to be this enormous hiccup in the history of Liverpool, everyone was totally relieved.

53:51But I think it's probably wrong to draw too many parallels because of the tragedy. Yeah, that's clearly true. But one part of it maybe is that a lot of it in that season was about physicality as well. There was the talk about where Fabinho and Jordan Henderson and that sort of lack of energy and running in midfield. And they do look off it physically compared to a lot of other teams this season. And part of that's maybe to do with a bit of a stylistic shift we're seeing in the Premier League. part of it's to do with teams not allowing them to press. Is there any one thing more than another? Because Adam, who's a listener, got in touch, and I think he's a Liverpool fan.

54:32Forgive me, Adam, if you're not actually a Liverpool fan. But he obviously mentions the impact of the grief around Diogo Jota, new signings, bedding in, slots, tactics, this continued thing about him talking in press conferences about, oh, we don't like playing this way. I think we're going to get a bit more against it. Is there any one thing more than another, or is it just such a rich cocktail of all these different things coming together at one time. Is there one thing that you look at it more than another? You know, you've talked about the defence, we've talked about the signing. Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing.

55:01Because they keep going behind and then they end up playing Van Dijk up front. It becomes desperate football, crazy like basketball football. And that's not what Liverpool were last season. They were controlled. There were some games in second halves where they had to go, they had to like, you know, turn up, slip into fifth or sixth gear and do something special. And often Salah produced it. He's not really doing that this season either. That's just another strand. yeah that's another thing to put into the pot but for me they keep going behind they keep nine goals as many from set pieces that's just one part of it it's a big part of it you keep going behind you keep going one or two goals behind and then it's desperate confidence drains away and like they can't come back very interesting Liverpool fans do get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk if you've got any solutions or if you think that Arna Slott is indeed under pressure this season Liverpool have got PSV in the Champions League this week huge games in the Champions League coming up, including Chelsea-Barcelona, which was the excuse for us to send Alison Rudd to interview one of the great commentators from down the years who had one of his great moments ruined by Gary Neville.

56:06Tell us all about it. Are you going to play it? I think we can probably get it played in there. But yeah, go on, give us the build-up and then we'll get it played in. Well, Chelsea made, they reached the final of the Champions League in 2012 because they managed to beat Barcelona in the Nou Camp. And in the dying seconds, well, Barcelona were desperate for a goal, ball was cleared and you had Fernando Torres, who was under huge pressure. He'd cost 50 million, which used to be a lot of money, but had done very little for Chelsea after leaving Liverpool. And people were like, what a waste of money.

56:43And it just didn't click for him, but he was running through. And Alan Parry says to me, he'd always wanted an iconic moment in commentary. You know, the people on the pitch, they think it's all over. He knew it couldn't be that good, but he thought maybe I could have something that people could listen to. And he thought the ball's broken to Torres. This is my moment. This is my moment to have a piece of iconic commentary. In came Gary Neville. Halfway through that commentary, Gary Neville starts. I mean, let's hear it. This could be the most dramatic story of the season. It's Torres to give Chelsea a place in the Champions League final.

57:20The headline has been written.

57:25Unbelievable. Unbelievable. So poor Alan Parry. I mean, that is absolutely... He had no moment there. He just about manages to get one word out before Gary Neville interrupts him. So what did he say? I mean, is he still fuming at Gary Neville, presumably? Well, he is. and it's quite some years on and he is still a bit annoyed because at the time, because he had his earphones in, he didn't realise how loud that was. How loud Gary Neville was. He didn't realise how loud Gary Neville was. He didn't realise quite how ridiculous Gary Neville sounded. I mean, it's a strangled cat stroke orgasm, isn't it?

58:02I mean, you can combine those two things. It's very peculiar. And it's all anyone remembers about what was a great goal and a great moment for Chelsea. and, you know, let's remember the opposition. This was the great Barcelona with Lionel Messi missing a penalty and it was like a crazy, crazy game that needed a great sign-off, an iconic commentary sign-off. And everything Alan Parry said was absolutely fine and would have been lovely to listen to, but nobody hears it. Nobody hears it. Poor old Alan Parry. Moment ruined. A very memorable moment. I honestly couldn't have even told you that it was him.

58:37I think we had to look at who it was. poor old Alan Parry but you can read an interview with him and Alison Rudd on the Times website probably by the time you're listening to this if not before later on in the evening before those big games we'll have to leave it there we're going to be talking about the Champions League on Thursday's show but for now Kit Shepard and Alison Rudd and Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening we'll see you on Thursday