FIFA, Howe, Henderson and Barcola

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1:23Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times, The World Cup is for sale. On Tuesday, we reported the Times exclusive about Gianni Infantino's plans to sell stakes in the tournament and the reaction and fallout to that story continues throughout the footballing world. On today's show, we'll get the latest developments and discuss what it means for the game. We'll also talk about Eddie Howe's departure from Newcastle and discuss transfers as Chelsea turn to Danny Welbeck and Jordan Henderson and Liverpool make their move for Bradley Barkerler. I'm Tom Clark and joining me today, we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the football reporter and Times columnist James Geerbrandt, and the football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Tottenham.

2:08It's Tom Allnut. Team, we thought it would be a quiet little gap. We thought we'd have this little gap, didn't we? Post-World Cup, into the season, and turns out the stories just keep on coming. We obviously did our special game episode with Martin Ziegler, the man who broke this huge story about FIFA. I just run through a couple of kind of bullet points since then. That show was out on Tuesday when the news broke. Obviously, after that story was out and after we recorded that podcast, the Prime Minister, Andy Burnham, said, he said, let me say this very directly. Football does not belong to investors.

2:41It belongs to the people who fill the stands and who stand on the touchline week in, week out, rain or shine. Football belongs to the fans it has and always will. The World Cup is not a product. It is the greatest competition in the world and it was never anyone's to sell. Dress up the deal however you like. Once you have sold a piece of it, you have sold it. And indeed, Martin Ziegler, as I say, the man who broke this story, the sports news reporter of the year and our chief sports reporter, has got a latest story on the Times website now and on the back page of the Times paper this morning that UEFA will hold a crisis meeting of its members today to decide on action to combat this World Cup sell-off plan.

3:19after FIFA gave the 211 member associations only 53 days to sign up or face financial consequences. Remarkable developments in a really fast-moving story, so loads and loads to talk about. But, guys, I want to go back now to Tuesday. We've caught all the listeners up on where we're at, the lie of the land, but let's just go back and get your reactions, the kind of gut reaction. And, Alison, I think I felt that reaction in reading your wonderful comment piece on the Times pages after this news came out. Before we talk about some of the things you said in that piece, what was your reaction as someone who's worked in football for so long, but also as a fan?

3:57Honestly, my first reaction was, what a wonderful journalist Martin Siegel is. Absolutely. That was genuinely what I thought. Wow. My second reaction was, have we all been duped and are we stupid? Because yet again, we had another World Cup, which the preamble to it was, we don't like a lot of things about this World Cup, just as we didn't like a lot of things about it being held in Russia, just as we weren't happy about it being held in Qatar. And yet what happened in those situations was that the football won at the end. We were all entertained and there were more good news stories than there were bad news stories out of both of those tournaments.

4:33And it seemed that yet again the same thing had happened in the USA. And because the football was entertaining, we took a slightly sniggery approach to the extortionate ticket prices, the hydration breaks done for advertising, done for an American audience, the way Infantino and Trump behaved at the lifting of the trophy, the Balogun affair, all of those things, I think we took them a little too lightly because at the same time we were being entertained. And then you get this real slap around the face. I felt, oh, we've all been a little bit dim-witted here because Infantino, while he's a laughingstock and people boo his face when they show it on the big screen in the stadiums, and I'm sure at sofas at home, people go, oh, God, him again, when they show the face.

5:25He's been plotting this astonishing idea that he can make a lot of money personally and create a power base for himself by selling off the World Cup. Then my second thought was, what does that mean? What would that actually mean? And because of the way it's formulated and because of who the investors probably will be, it means the Americanisation of the sport. And, you know, if there's one big nation in the world which has never really, in the men's side of it, got to grips with football, it is America. And that could then suddenly, if you throw enough money at something and make it glitzy enough and have enough celebrities on the big screen all the time and influencers bragging about how they can touch the trophy, you're going to just turn it into a completely different product.

6:11Yeah, summing up, I think what a lot of fans would think there, just as you mentioned finances, I should say that in the letter to associations, Gianni Infantino says the decision on allowing private investors must be taken by September 19th. He said the funding package totaling$10 billion, but each association receiving$40 million. But if they reject it, their earnings will be$2.7 billion, almost 75 % less. Sources opposed to the plan told The Times they believe it is, quote, pure bribery. extraordinary stuff um james such a fascinating story and so fast moving but your reaction as a fan and as a reporter um i mean my reaction was sort of it's uh was was not surprise shall we say it's obviously a it's a huge seismic story the sort of story that ought to leave you shocked and and yet i found that i wasn't really that shocked by it because it just it's a culmination really isn't it, of a direction of travel that has kind of long been apparent, I think, the sort of the creeping corporatization and commodification of the game under Infantino.

7:18And I think what Alison is saying is true, is that the football always wins in the end because the, you know, football for all its many flaws is the best sport ever invented. And the World Cup, you know, It's one of the world's, it's really one of the world's two greatest sporting events alongside the Olympics. But I think FIFA have kind of been allowed to sort of push this sort of narrative that they're the, you know, not just the owners of the World Cup, but the authors of its success. And we saw that, didn't we, in Gianni Infantino's ridiculous statement that he put out sort of claiming credit for, you know, all the good aspects, basically, of the last World Cup and ignoring all the things that, you know, have gone wrong.

8:12But FIFA are there as the custodians and the administrators of world football. And it's not the administering of the World Cup that has made it great, has made it what it is. In fact, on many occasions, it has actually let down the tournament, made it bloated or made it gauche. It's the players that have, you know, over many decades made the World Cup the extraordinary, powerful and ultimately lucrative thing. I believe that, you know, I'm not saying it'll be anything other than a nuclear option to kind of break away from FIFA if that is ultimately what UEFA are considering at this crisis meeting.

8:59but I don't believe that they are as essential to the fabric of the game as I think they believe they are. Really interesting points. Talk about solutions and potential responses in a second. But Tom, your thoughts?

9:13Tom Allnutt: Yeah, not surprised. I was at the first game, first World Cup game in Mexico City at the Azteca. And the first thing that struck me about the World Cup, the first thing I sort of noticed about it was that there's huge FIFA letters just like hanging down over the pitch, you know, and you're like, are they going to move those out of the way? It's just this huge golden FIFA letters in the middle of the pitch by hanging over for the pre-match, for the warm-up. And then I think at some point after about two minutes, they sort of sweep up into the sky, but you can still see them, right? And I feel like it's quite a nice kind of motif about where FIFA thinks it is in the game right now.

9:45Tom Allnutt: It's not, as James said, a custodian. It thinks it is on the pitch. It thinks it is one of the main players in what is the game. And James, you're right. Clearly the players make the World Cup, the stories make it as we've seen. The Cape Verde and all the brilliant stories we've just loved watching. But it's also about the fans, right? It's also about the amazing kind of colour we see and the fans being part of it. And I think over the years we've seen, under Infantino, we thought there was going to be this break. After Sepp Blatter, we thought there was going to be this kind of clean sweep and everyone was like, OK, like a nice kind of Swiss lawyer is going to come in.

10:15Tom Allnutt: Everything's going to be a bit more professional and a bit more sort of easy going. It's clearly all the way through. And you can go even before this tournament with the hydration breaks and everything that we've seen in the last few weeks. You go back, you know, it's the Nations League. It's back in the Super League plan. You know, it's talking about doing the World Cup every two years. It's giving the World Cup to Saudi Arabia in a bidding process that basically made it impossible for anyone else to bid. You know, like we've seen this not just over the past four weeks, but over the past, you know, best part of a decade now.

10:40Tom Allnutt: So why is anyone surprised? It's really interesting, isn't it, listening to you and being someone who was so swept up in the World Cup and the action as listeners know and as you guys know. We were duped, as Alison says, weren't we, when Tom outlines it like that. the timing of it all post a World Cup, post a terrific World Cup in terms of playing and nations and storylines. Very calculated, actually, isn't it, in terms of putting this out now? Gianni Infantino as well up for re-election in 2027. This is a real make or break moment, isn't it, for the game, Alison? And that, as well as some of the points the guys made, that was also the thrust of your comment piece, wasn't it?

11:13Well, I mean, we're talking about the, I use the word duped because there is a timeline here. I I mean, Infantino got into power by bribing, in inverted commas, the member associations by promising them, if you elect me, I'll give you all$5 million. So who are you going to vote for? The guy who says, FIFA has to be very careful with the purse strings. Or the guy who says, I'm going to give you all$5 million. And they think, oh, okay. Yeah, let's go for that one then. And his power subsequently has been based on the fact that he is very, very good, especially when dealing with the smaller, less developed nations saying, I look after you financially.

12:00And you talk about the sums of money that he's talking about now in terms of, you know, if you sell the soul, because you're selling your soul for quite a large amount of cash. I mean,$40 million will get you. if you're a smaller footballing nation, you can start thinking about building pitches, hiring better coaches. You can dream. And I just feel that if... I don't know what UEFA will come out with. I doubt they'll come out with something terribly bold today. They'll probably express grave disappointment. But there is a danger that Europe, which dominated the latter stages of the World Cup, let's not forget, they are advanced in sense of world football.

12:49They are advanced and well-funded and well-organized and have history on their side. They are in danger of looking like they don't care about world grassroots football, if you like. They want to take away this opportunity from the smaller nations who we fell in love with, the ones who made it into the 2026 iteration. They will look like, they will look, and this is very cleverly plotted, They will look like the bad guys refusing to help other nations progress. And if you are an African football nation, say, and you're thinking, well, I don't know about this idea, but you have a committee meeting and you talk about what you can spend that money on.

13:35It's going to be very, very hard for any of them to say, no, we want the smaller pot. And if you take the smaller pot and your neighbours take the bigger pot, who's going to win the next trophy?

13:46Tom Allnutt: That's the thing. I agree with that. On the face of it, you think, well, 40 million, of course, for these smaller countries, it's a big amount of money. But we've seen, the evidence is right there in front of our eyes. Over the last 10 years, you look at how the European club game has happened, where you have more money for everyone, but more money mostly for the bigger teams. And how does that affect the middle classes and lower classes of European football? Like look at the league phase of the Champions League, like where you have clubs like Sevilla, like really struggling. You have clubs like Ajax, really struggling.

14:14Tom Allnutt: You have a Champions League now where basically, you know, a super class of four or five teams are winning every single year. Why is that? It's because you have the governing classes basically trying to create a tournament. Of course, you know, if you have investors who are investing in the World Cup, what do they want? What are they actually buying? They're buying the influence to say, OK, we want to create a World Cup where actually we know the best four teams are always going to be in the semifinals. We know the best three or four players are always going to be playing. No suspensions. We don't have players not qualifying or getting red cars and missing matches.

14:41Tom Allnutt: We want to make sure that Messi and Ronaldo are in the final, that England and Argentina and Spain are in the semifinals. So in a way, yeah, of course, on the face of it, you get your 40 million. But the landscape of the game, don't tell me that it benefits the middle classes and the lower class countries, because long term, it absolutely doesn't. Yeah. In terms of some of the responses then, because we're heading into kind of what the reaction would be. And speaking of kind of UEFA and things, listening to this reading, sorry, the statement from our English FA, they said, we were completely unaware of this proposal and had no substantive details, including what the position actually is.

15:15Based on the limited information, we are deeply concerned about the lack of process. When the proposal is shared in full and transparent way, now promised by FIFA, we'll make our views clear and comment further. Anyone, am I being kind of slightly naive that I'd like someone and maybe our English FA with the Premier League and the mic to come out and, you know, just wallop them back? Am I being completely naive? No, you're not being naive. And you're right to say the FA does have clout. You know, it's the oldest football association in the world. It still has that cachet to it. And that statement, I mean, they may not have meant it to read that way.

15:49What it reads in is, oh, we'd have liked to have been given the nod beforehand, actually. Why do we not know about it? as opposed to we find this absolutely abhorrent. It reads more like, well, why have we been kept in the dark? That's what annoying them more than the actual detail. Well, I think it shows that there's been a kind of a sort of real politic towards Infantino, hasn't there, in the sense that people have always said, well, he's the president. So, you know, we've kind of got to deal with him. And, you know, maybe I think especially, you know, at the time of his first election or his first term, There was a sense of, well, maybe he's not the ideal president, but maybe someone else would be worse.

16:33And even now, there's a sort of temptation to say, well, we will tacitly really disapprove of this, but surely it's better to kind of stay in and have a seat at the table rather than kind of be outside the tent. But, and let's not forget that the, you know, for all the FA's kind of statements and tacit disapproval, a lot of the European member associations have actually supported Infantino. and I think there was a it was a quote from I think it was the the Finnish FA a few months ago where they said they didn't want to oppose Infantino too directly because they didn't want to be an eyesore didn't sort of want to you know create an unruly kind of disturbance that would sort of spoil the the World Cup I think the time has the time has come to to actually say well it is it is really bad you know this is this is this is pretty much as bad as it can get And the realpolitik has kind of failed and it's time for a more combative sort of...

17:44It's time to put maybe the nuclear options on the table and oppose this kind of more vehemently. Even if they did, they'd still be outnumbered, I think. Even if every single European nation said no, there would still be more who'd say yes. I'll just come on to that in a second, but I mentioned this UEFA meeting and we've all mentioned it, but speaking of statements, I haven't actually mentioned their statement. They said, we have learnt that FIFA's deadline to associations to support their proposals or have the one-off payout offer withdrawn. This says everything you need to know about this plan, but having held discussions with our many stakeholders across the game, UEFA knows that there is a significant growing opposition to FIFA's scheme.

18:25FIFA cannot continue to use our sport to enrich themselves and their friends. we can grow the game correctly. It's time to prioritise associations, clubs, leagues, players and fans. So, I mean, that is probably the punchiest response from another organisation which, let's be honest, hasn't always covered itself in glory in terms of the running of the game. But we're now pitting these two associate, you know, these huge member nation states kind of against each other, aren't we? And if that's, do you not need then a bit more, to your point that you guys were just talking about, is it not a bit like kind of standing up to bullies?

18:56once someone goes, actually, that's not right, other nations start to follow, even on a PR level. Again, am I being naive? I think also Europe has a lot of power. It's an obvious point, but if all the European member associations truly are as disgusted by this plan as we think that they may be, the World Cup, There was never a better demonstration than at the last World Cup, than what really gave that World Cup an immense amount of its value was the performances of the star players. And right now in football, a huge proportion of the true star players are European. We assume that Messi and Ronaldo probably aren't going to be around at the next World Cup.

19:46The next generation of star players really. They might be if they do one in two years instead of four. Maybe, but with a few exceptions, obviously, like Vinicius, the real elite star players are European. It's the Mbappé, Jamal, Bellingham, Erling Haaland. And so I think, you know, who knows where we end up. But if the European member nations really did come together and decide that enough was enough, I do think they have some, you know, they have an immense amount of power. A World Cup, hypothetically, without the European teams would be a denuded shell of a competition that everyone, you know, it would be like the famously boycotted Olympics, but to a much greater extent.

20:38It would be sort of recognised as being, would have much less value because it wouldn't be a World Cup. Everyone would know that it would be impossible to ignore the best teams in the world unless players in the world weren't there.

20:51Tom Allnutt: I think some European nations, with the utmost respect, I think some of them are slightly... Their attitude to this kind of thing is not so much disgust. It's more kind of resignation. And I think that in Spain, I think particularly, I think we saw the European Super League, France, I think as well. And if you take the context of those leagues, they're kind of used to this sort of thing happening a bit more. You think about PSG dominating Lyon for so long, you know, in a system that is clearly unfair. You look at in Spain, Barcelona and Real Madrid dominating politically, financially in all ways.

21:23Tom Allnutt: You know, you look at these countries, they know it's not right. But I think if you talk to people, they'll say, yeah, but it's always been like that. You know, we're used to that kind of thing and we just kind of assume that is going to be the case. So it is up to, I think, you know, English football, the FA, without being too sort of, you know, chess-beaty about it. You know, English football likes to talk a good game. You know, we talk about it's coming home. And we talk about the FA being the oldest association in the world. You know, the rules are written on a plaque in Cambridge, aren't they?

21:47Tom Allnutt: You know, we invented the game here. Like, OK, well, let's see it. You know, these are the moments, right, where your moral fortitude is tested. The ally they need as well, James mentioned him. It's Erling Haaland and the Norwegian boys, isn't it? Come on, get the drum out, get the boat out. This is time, isn't it? Erling, this is your time. This is your time as the greatest striker in the world to get the drum out and start beating it for the future of football. There's a serious point there, though, which is that Infantino, right, in many ways, is a lot like Donald Trump. There's this idea that Donald Trump is really popular.

22:19But actually, if you look at his approval ratings, he's not that popular. And I think the same thing holds with Infantino. It's sort of like everyone thinks that he's quite popular. But as Alison said, whenever he's pictured on screen, he's booed. You see that he's actually really, he's not that popular in many ways. And the really popular figures in football, this is always and always will be the case, are the players, both the current players and the former players. And there are a lot of very intelligent, well-spoken, outspoken, moral players and ex-players out there. And I think what football desperately, what world football desperately lacks at the moment is a kind of alternative figure to Winfantino, alternative candidate who people who coalesce around really lacks a kind of Seb Coe type figure.

23:14a sort of an ex-player who deeply cares and is concerned for the long-term well-being of the sport and is not prepared to kind of just let all this happen. And who that figure would be, I don't know, but we can all... I agree with your point. And I was obviously being silly, as I always am about Erlinger, but I'm partly being serious. I'm thinking, as you just said there, I remember talking to Martin Samuel about Kylian Mbappe and what a fantastic captain he is and role model and spokesperson for so many issues in the modern game and modern society. Again, I'm such a dreamer, but I'm imagining a kind of captain's alliance of like Harry Kane, Odegaard, Mbappe, Rodri.

23:58Rodri, who is someone who has spoken at length and with great passion about the amount of games that footballers play these days. This is another problem that the players are going to face. Get the kits on lads and like rise up and put out a step like that would be the most powerful thing wouldn't it again tom's looking at me going yes such a dreamer tom you've got no chance you've got no

24:18Tom Allnutt: you need a holiday mate the players are on the sunbeds though they're taking a rest they don't want to be getting involved in a political storm i mean i know what you mean but i think it's sort of up to the governing classes and the organizations and maybe you know they would but they would far quicker move if with one instagram post from someone wouldn't they and i'm not suggesting that I'm putting the pressure on the players to do it. But in terms of popularity and the way these stories move, that starts like a potential avalanche of support the other way. Yes, and yet, even if your dream came true and we had Erling Haaland and Harry Kane saying, this is bad for the game, it's bad for player welfare, we don't want this to happen, it's not going to bother an association like Curacao or Cameroon who won the money.

25:06They won't think about, they'll just think about why we cannot afford to fall behind our African neighbours and not take this money. But it could bother the investors. If the investors really, and this is where we get into questions of brinkmanship and how serious really are you. But if people, if these putative investors thought that there was a chance that players like Mbappe and Bellingham and the top players of the European nations might not be involved in the product anymore, then you can bet that they'd start, you know, that would... Well, I don't think they have the... It's mainly American investors.

25:50I don't think they see it in... I don't think they see football the way you and I would see it. I think they 100 % see football as being about... They see the prospect of... They see the ticket sales. They see the projection. They see if we get enough countries involved, this is going to be... What a horse to be backing. This is what we want. They'll just see those as minor details because there'll be stars that will emerge and stars that won't join a boycott. They'll see it as a flurry of dissent around the skirts of it and they won't think it ultimately affects their money-making potential.

26:30Tom Allnutt: They do clearly need the major nations, right? I mean, you look at the Super League, why did it fall? Because ultimately the Premier League clubs one by one sort of knocked out and then the Super League were like, well, we could do this still with Barca and Madrid but you can't because you need Liverpool and you need Manchester United, right? And why do they go? Because people spoke up. I mean, I'm being such a dreamer, but this is partly coming from because, you know, I love football. This job is such a privilege. I love going to games with my dad and things. But like, there's a part of me that hears these stories and think, there's a world in my lifetime in which I don't like this game anymore, if this keeps coming.

27:01And so that's why I'm trying to like latch on to some positives, because in a world in which the World Cup is every year or every two years, and it's sponsored and, you know, so sanitized beyond belief. But has anyone got, I'm sensing a slight resignation in the room about the proposals. Do people have belief that it cannot happen? Something that's so, I think something you've just mentioned that we've touched, I think which is really important is how often that they're proposing to play the World Cup. I think if it became a concrete reality that the World Cup was going to be every two years or even every year, I think that would move the needle.

27:38I really do. Because I think players, players, honestly, I think, and we've seen it in so many, so many players have said, you know, the calendar is unsustainable. We're not machines. We're not robots. The, you know, the quality of football that we're playing. Frankie de Jong came out and said, you know, the quality of football that we're playing now is not as good as it could be because we're knackered all the time. We're really tired, you know. And I do, I do genuinely think that if If it became a concrete reality that the World Cup was going to be every two years or even every year rather than every four years, I do think that that might move the needle in terms of eliciting a response from the kind of body of players.

28:24I just worry that you're not going to get that reality until afterwards. It's like all the, I don't want to mention the word, but like Brexit. It's like, oh, this is great. This is great. You get loads of money. You're like, yeah, no, no, but you get this after. Why don't you tell us about that? You're like, well, you know, we kind of did. We said it might happen, but it's definitely going to happen now. Sorry, you've signed it off now. No worries. Bye. That's my problem. Anyway, I mean, are we all resigned to this? We're all giving up hope? No, I think the post-selling of the World Cup landscape might, in the end, produce an alternative to FIFA, but I still think this project will go through.

29:01Tom Allnutt: No, I'm not resigned to it. I don't think it will necessarily come from the players. or even the fans. But I do think that, you know, even this meeting today, you know, I think it's possible that there'll be enough nations, you know, and their organisations who will come together to oppose it. I mean, UEFA, come back to the point that James made, UEFA is a very powerful, you know, part of this. And it's a big problem for FIFA that it's against it. So I don't, but I think what usually happens in these situations, I mean, the Super League is a good example of this. You don't have a yes or a no. It becomes a, okay, no, but not now.

29:34Tom Allnutt: And we have something in the middle, you know, and it becomes a compromise agreement where, okay, we change the format and everyone gets more games and everyone gets more money. Ultimately, they can expand the World Cup. They can play it more often. Perhaps you don't get this initial proposal, but you're going to get something different. Erling, Killian, Harry, get in the boat, get the drum out, make it happen. Come on, that is the battle cry from the game podcast. We will keep you up to date with all the latest on the Times website. Martin Ziegler, as I say, the man who broke this story, has been on top of it in the 48 hours since, and he will maintain that stream of news content.

30:05So make sure you're following him on social media platforms and the Times website. Two, speaking of the World Cup, I should say that as other things on the Times website and in the paper, it's 60 years since the World Cup in 1966. The final, England's triumph against Germany. So if you do want to remember a simpler time when England won trophies and no one talked about selling off the World Cup and Jeffers scored a hat-trick, there's some fantastic content to be read. We've relived the final with a live file. We've got the match report that The Times produced after that game. And also Owen Slott, our Chief Sports Writer, has done a brilliant piece speaking to the children of the players in that team about their memories.

30:40It's some really wonderful stuff and a nice antidote to all these fears about FIFA. Time for a little break. We've got loads more to come in the second half of the show. We're going to be talking about Eddie Howe and his departure from Newcastle, which leads me nicely onto the quiz question to take us into the break. of the 17 clubs. Got it? 17 clubs. Of the clubs left in the Premier League who were there at the start of last season, how many will start this campaign with a new manager one year on? Find out after the break. Well, listeners, I joked about it being a fast-moving story and we demanded some action.

31:13We wanted to hear a strong response and before we could even publish today's podcast, we got that response. England and all other 54 member nations of UEFA telling FIFA that they will boycott tournaments if Gianni Infantino's plan goes ahead to sell stakes in the World Cup. Remarkable moment. I'm still in the Times newsroom now. I've just come to record this extra bolt-on to keep you updated with the news. Absolutely fascinating stuff. UEFA have put out a statement, confirmed Martin Ziegler's exclusive story, which told us the news of that boycott. It reads, some extraordinary stuff in here. The World Cup cannot be treated as an investment product.

31:53It is one of football's greatest sporting legacies. It has been built over generations by players, national teams and supporters across every continent. No part of it should ever be surrendered to private investors. The World Cup is not for sale. And I found this particularly interesting and pointed towards Gianni Infantino. It is both irresponsible and indefensible, UEFA said, that the proposal of such significance for football was conceived in secret and brought to the brink of approval without any meaningful consultation with those entrusted with stewarding the game. This is not merely a profound failure of leadership, but an abdication of FIFA's duty as the custodian of world football.

32:33Speaking very much to some of the points that the guys made on the podcast earlier using that word custodian. This is not what a custodian does. Really remarkable stuff as well. We should say that the FA, as I say, England, part of this UEFA cohort that have boycotted, FA put out a short statement but a very punchy one. We stand shoulder to shoulder with our European colleagues and fully support the collective you. We oppose FIFA's plans. The FIFA World Cup belongs to football and always will. Absolutely extraordinary stuff. It's a very, very long UEFA statement. Europe's position is clear. We will never lend this model our legitimacy.

33:10No one has the moral authority to sell what they merely hold in trust for the next generation. absolutely fascinating stuff so that is all 55 UEFA nations saying they will boycott the World Cup so as we stand listeners and this story will keep moving who knows where it'll be by the time you listen to this show and I should say we'll hopefully be hearing from Martin Ziegler the man who broke this story and the man who broke the exclusive news of this boycott we'll hopefully get him on for another little special perhaps on Friday to wrap up where we are now but you do have to wonder is this the beginning of the end for this project so many star nations so many star players as it stands if FIFA continue down this path will not be at future World Cups that of course includes the Women's World Cup which is one year away this time next year in Brazil the Women's World Cup and as we stand England and Spain the previous two finalists for the last Women's World Cup would not be there also England and Spain probably two of the favourites to win the women's world cup an extraordinary moment an extraordinary story that keeps on developing make sure you're following martin ziegler and time sport across all social media channels they will keep you up to date first martin has been first with this story all along the way of the past two days he will keep being first i am sure absolutely amazing just wanted to jump in and give you that update before we press publish on today's show anyway let's get back to it shall we we've got Eddie Howe to still talk about.

34:35We've got Chelsea, we've got transfers, and we've still got that quiz question to find out the answer to. We'll be back just after this break.

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36:12Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Tom Allnut, James Gearbrand and Alison Rudd with me. Enough politics, enough stressing about the future of the game. Let's talk a bit of nonsense. We've got transfers, we've got managerial merry-go-rounds. Lovely stuff. Managerial merry-go-rounds. Summed up by my quiz question. It's a typical game podcast's in-studio answer. Someone dived in, thought they had the exact answer, then pretended that they had the right answer despite it being wrong. Alison Rudd, that went to you, didn't it? No, I was too right for your answer.

36:46No, you weren't too right. You said Barry Michael Carrick was not Manchester United manager at the start of last season. Well, he was. You can argue that he was. No, you can't argue that he wasn't. No, you can't. That's not how a quiz question works, Alison. The definition of a Times columnist. Most fans, and we're into what the fans think and what the fans feel, most fans would feel that Michael Carrick had been their manager. If there's a single game podcast listener out there who agrees with Alison that Michael Carrick was essentially the Manchester United manager. He was the Eminos Cleese.

37:13He was the shadowy figure in the background. In August 2025, do get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Thankfully, Tom Ornott then waited in the wings. Outrageous. Waiting in the wings, like the striker in the box, waiting for the brilliant Maisie run to be, you know, saved. Just tap it in with the answer, which was... Ten, Tom. Ten. But it's nine. It's not nine, Alison. It's not nine. It's really not. Ten. Because Eddie Howe has left Newcastle. He was lining up for this show thinking we've got FIFA, we've got transfers, and then bang, Eddie Howe leaves Newcastle. Very, very interesting and fascinating timing, I've got to say.

37:50Initial reactions. Again, we're in a similar vein to the FIFA thing Not surprised probably No, the surprising thing is the timing Given the season that Newcastle had And I think, I didn't see Newcastle a huge amount But every time I did see them Eddie Howe was either berating the players Never a good sign when it's public Or berating himself Never a good sign when you're a manager And given that they ended with an absolute whimper you would have probably put money on Eddie Howe being one of the first managers to leave post the end of the season and the fact he's hung on till we're almost in August makes you think he probably has had to do a lot of thinking about his future and he's come down on the side of no it's not worth it, I'm going but yeah I'd almost got to the point where I thought well he's not gone yet he'll probably stay because the timing is a strange thing him leaving is not a strange thing And he wants, I think, something along the lines of a period of self-reflection and arrest from the game.

38:55I would say it's a pity he didn't have that period of self-reflection before joining a club owned by Saudi Arabia Investment Fund. But there we are. We'll get into legacy in a minute. But reactions, chaps?

39:07Tom Allnutt: I mean, I wonder if he's had all this sort of thinking time or whether he's just realised that they're selling all their best players. I mean, they sold Isak last year, they sold Tonali, they sold Anthony Gordon. It looks like they're going to sell Bruno Guimaraes as well to Arsenal. Got Lewis Hall being linked pretty strongly with Manchester United for about a week or so now. So if you're Eddie Howe and you sort of see what happened last season and, you know, they finished 12th, was it, in the end? Yeah. And sort of sinking quite fast in the second half of the season. Then I think you look at it and you think, do I really want to go into this season, you know, with a team that's much worse than the one last year?

39:40Tom Allnutt: I mean I think generally you know if you look at it more broad sweep like he's been there what five years and I think people tend to think I mean clearly there are exceptions but that that is a very good stint in the Premier League you know and there comes a point I think with every manager I mean I know your Iola thinks this that actually two or three years is basically the maximum you can do it's a cycle at the moment you know in big clubs in Europe and maybe after five years the club needs a breath of fresh air I know probably the main narrative here will be that it's going to be a huge loss for Newcastle and I think that is very true it looks to me like a team or going into the season, if you depart with your manager at this point, so close with the players who have gone, like it's really not a good start for Newcastle, is it?

40:18Tom Allnutt: But maybe longer term, maybe they do need someone new and a fresh face. I think he's done an absolutely phenomenal job as Newcastle manager. From a pure football management point of view, since he was appointed, Newcastle are fifth in the Premier League for points one and they're only fractionally behind Aston Villa. could actually be a much better goal difference than Aston Villa in that time period. Above Manchester United, above Chelsea. In the season and a half before Eddie Howe was appointed out of the ever-present Premier League teams, they were 16th out of 17 for points won. I mean, I think he's done an absolutely phenomenal job.

41:02And from his point of view of his career as well, he left Bournemouth sort of, you know, slightly kind of under a bit of a question mark over, you know, they'd obviously got relegated. Could he, you know, they'd played some good attacking football, but, you know, could he really organise a defence? And from the point of view of his career, obviously leaving aside questions of, you know, whether he should have gone to a club owned by the Saudi Arabian investment vehicle, but purely from the point of view of his career as a football manager, I think he's done an outstanding job and it'll be very interesting to see what he does next because I think he's a really, really good manager.

41:43Do you think there's part of that with it where it's a reputation preservation maybe? Yes, it's a good time to get out, definitely. It's a time to get out where, as Tom says, a lot of police players are leaving and that actually he leaves generally despite that finish towards the end of last season. I think most people would agree with James. Would you guys agree that overall Eddie Howe leaves Newcastle with everyone going, good manager. Eddie Howe's a good manager. Oh, he's a very good manager, and I'd like him to be England manager. Right. And maybe that'll happen. Who knows? An Englishman reading England.

42:12That'd be lovely. It does seem extraordinary there, but by his account, there wasn't even any contact from the FA with him. But maybe there would be. But also, as my stat highlights, there's changes coming, Eddie. There's jobs coming up. There'll be jobs coming up, won't there? I mean, there will. I'm being flippant. But by November, by December, maybe by February, there'll be a big job. A big job. a job as big as Newcastle may be bigger, but he's had a bit of time out, he'd be a contender for, would he not? Yeah, I mean, if you are the chairman of a club, he's going to be on the top of your list of candidates, simply because if you look at what he inherited, there was, when the Saudis took over Newcastle, there was this belief, it didn't end up being true, because people didn't really understand how profit and sustainability rules worked, but there was a belief that they were going to spend billions of pounds on players and they were going to become this superpower.

43:06And that was the backdrop to his early career at Newcastle was, wow, Eddie Howe, he's going to have a treasure chest. What's he going to do with it? It's going to be fun. In the end, they were very limited on what they could spend. So he had to deal not only with an average amount of money to play with, to build a squad, but he had to deal with those dampened expectations. That's quite a difficult thing to navigate. He also had to navigate a lot of people saying, why are you going, you know, politically this isn't great, is it a Saudi club owning an English institution? But he made it on the whole, he made it work.

43:45He got them into the Champions League. He won them their first piece of silverware in 70-odd years. He did all that the Newcastle fans yearned for. and I think probably Tom is right there comes a point where you can't squeeze any more out of the players you've got you become jaded and he started to sound jaded as well like he doubted himself it was like he wasn't sure after yet another trends would emerge they were incapable of holding on to a lead that speaks to what they planned before the game not being executed on the pitch because they get a bit like England in the World Cup. You get a bit defensive after you've taken the lead.

44:28Their away form that spoke also of the fact that sometimes they got over the line simply because the atmosphere at St. James' Park was so fantastic. And you counter that by being a fresh face in the dressing room, someone who's got the players on side. But I think he ran out of ideas on how to refresh them week in, week out. So he's clearly decided, I need to be refreshed. but his cohort and what he's had to deal with, I think makes him a really good candidate for a big club or an England job.

45:01Tom Allnutt: They didn't refresh the team, either did they? I mean, that's kind of the key. I think you look at those long managers who do so well over a long period of time, they keep that evolution and those signings. You know, you have that, we know what the Eddie Howe Newcastle team is, you know, and what the identity is, and that's credit to him. We know it's a very physical team, aggressive, hard to play against. But then you look at last summer, of the signings of Baltamada, Ilanga, Visser, you know, those three, none of them really came off, you know, and you think if you're selling ISAC and you have all that money, what Eddie Howe needed in that, you know, moment was for two or three signs to come in and give a real injection of enthusiasm and energy to the new team.

45:36Tom Allnutt: That just hasn't happened. It's never felt like Newcastle have taken the next step, you know, to move it on. I think he found the ISAC thing quite difficult as well to handle. I mean, the fact that he dragged on so long as well. He went on for a long time and navigating that politically and putting the public face on it and having to say, oh, no, we want him, oh, no, we're letting him go. I mean, it makes you look weak. It's difficult. Reports that Matthias Jaisal, a German coach who's been in charge of Al-Ali in Saudi Arabia since 2023, has been lined up to take over from Eddie Howe. Newcastle fans on the playing side will be worried about all the departures, won't they?

46:11And the fact that, as Alison said earlier, we're nearly in August. season begins in three weeks. I'd be worried if I was a Newcastle fan, wouldn't you, at the state of the club going into this season? I think, yes, there's quite an exciting appointment. Do you? Yeah, I think so. Why so? He's a young coach who's come through the kind of Red Bull pathway. So he managed Liefering, which is one of the kind of feeder clubs in that chain and took them to their highest finish in the Austrian Bundesliga, took them to second place. He had a good spell at Red Bull Salzburg. And he's now been at Al-Ali in the Saudi league, which I can't say I follow closely, but I think he's won two consecutive Asian Champions Leagues with them.

46:59Yeah. So I think he's, you know, he's not, he's, I think it's fair to say that he's quite an exciting appointment in the sense that he's, I think he's had quite a promising career so far. And he's clearly, he's not one of the, you know sort of same old same old tried and trusted kind of carousel of faces so I think I think I think he's probably quite a good choice for where they are now which is that they I think that the squad is probably the squad has been weakened there's no getting around it and I think he'll be young and I think he'll come in with quite a lot of energy and intensity which is is probably what they what they need because they're they're now they're now kind of in a rebuild aren't late basically um so i think he's i think he's quite an exciting appointment it's a risk though

47:45Tom Allnutt: you know and i think james is right you know he he's young he's from the kind of red ball model he's done some good things and people think about exciting and you can imagine some of the maybe let's call them sort of lower mid-table clubs if they took a risk like this you might say oh it's a really smart interesting appointment you know brighton or a palace or fulham or something for newcastle a team have just been in the champions league it to me it's it's a risk you know and if going into Premier League season as someone who covered Tottenham last year, you know, you can be a very big name in the Premier League, but if you haven't got established players, you haven't got an established coach, you know, and it doesn't work for, you know, two or three months, you can be in trouble, you know, quite quickly.

48:21Tom Allnutt: This Premier League now, you know, it's a cliche to say it, but there are no gimmies, you know, and all the way down the league is quality. Even if you're a big name club like Newcastle, if you've got a squad that basically they're going to be on the training ground this week thinking, what on earth is going on here? Like our best players have left, the manager who we all really like has gone and you guys coming in who in truth not many of us know much about yeah that's not a good place to be starting a premier league season in yeah really interesting newcastle fans get in touch with me with your thoughts tom.clark at the times.co.uk let's finish with a bit of transfer fun and i mean it is fun it's fun at chelsea isn't it there's been so many wonderful moments on the sports desk this week editing hearing from our reporters speaking to martin ziegler about this seismic story from fifa but one of the great moments was when Paul Joyce called me up and said, Jordan Henderson's going to Chelsea.

49:04Because I went, what? What? And then I turned around and told our production editors and our sub-editors saying, we need a new intro for the Chelsea story. Jordan Henderson's going to Chelsea. What? What? One of the more extraordinary stories of this summer, Danny Welbeck 2, 35 and 36. I just, it is quite funny, is it not? That all this talk, Pete Rutz's fantastic analysis last season, basically everyone who covers Chelsea, not enough experience. stop signing 22-year-olds on seven-year contracts. And they've gone, who are the old good ones in the Premier League? It's a bit mad, isn't it? It doesn't mean it's bad.

49:41I think Danny Welbeck is a great signing. But Jordan Henderson, it's a bit weird, isn't it? They know what the owners do. And they've done it since they took over. They took over and they were like, they listened to people who were supposed to know about football. Oh, Brighton models. Brighton model's really good. Let's just import the Brighton model. Let's take Graham Potter. Let's just do what we can. Alice says, copy Brighton and failed miserably. And they just seemed to lurch from trend to trend. And they thought they were very clever doing the whole, you know, long contracts of very young players.

50:09Oh, we're going to be billionaires doing this even more than we are now. And then everyone laughed at them. They go, why are they all laughing at us? Oh, because we've got no maturity in the dressing room. I know. Well, let's pick the... There's that guy. He was taken with England for the vibes. We want him. But that's genuine... He's got vibes. That's what I mean. I just love how quick the jump is from Granit Xhaka, like a very, very elite footballer who had a brilliant season at Sunderland, captain Switzerland at the World Cup. The jump from him to Jordan Henderson is quite big, is it not? There must be other midfielders out there.

50:44It's like, you know, Jabby, bad news, I'm afraid, yet Sunderland are holding firm on the whole Granit Xhaka thing. Doesn't look like it's going to happen. Yet, we'll get you a list of some other options. sure anyone got any ideas like genuinely and then they start on Jordan Henderson it's not quite it is slightly laughable it's not quite as ludicrous as you might think because the Jacker thing was mainly about the the effect he would have on the young players the leadership he would bring and I think with Jordan Henderson what what do we reckon he'll play he'll probably play what 15 minutes here and there Jordan Henderson will's first start will be against Peterborough in the Carabao Cup at home he will play he will come on the pitch for games games that need to be played out and no stupid things to happen I don't know if he will I think he'll be stood next to Xavi Alonso on the touchline

51:36Tom Allnutt: shouting at I feel sorry for Henderson I feel like there's a lot he's kind of been built up now to be like Mr Vibesman so much the England thing and the Brentford thing and now Chelsea like he has to go in and everyone's sort of looking at him straight away in the canteen being like you know so what do you do give us the jokes have you got some board games or what is it that you do that's so special Watching him in training going, I do that. What's the big deal? When is he going to impart his wisdom on to me? And as I say, he's been an amazing professional. He's won the Premier League. A fantastic captain of Liverpool.

52:05Can we not just say that when he did play, the minutes he did play for Brentford, he played some beautiful football. He hasn't quite lost it. His passing is exquisite. I am absolutely being very flippant about this, but I do think the madness of it will overshadow. So my point is that it's almost too far down one way that it obscures that it could be a good signing. I think it's clearly, as you say, clearly it's very funny that it's just a complete lurch from one way of doing things. We're going to win with an average squad age of 23 and a half to signing the two most senior grizzled pros in the Premier League.

52:43But I imagine it's probably quite driven by Alonso, based on particularly based on his experiences of what worked for him at Bayer Leverkusen when you had Jacker himself you had like good experienced pros like Kadecki the goalkeeper Robert Andrich as well and I think it just kind of reflects something that like is always sort of quite easy to overlook but if you actually kind of are in the business of running a successful football team it's probably actually really important which is just having a couple of guys who lead and set standards and just kind of give the whole thing a bit of like direction, which clearly is what we're all saying Chelsea lacked last season.

53:23So as much as it is funny that they've lurched madly from one thing to the other. I will also freely admit that I think there's a world in which this all works so beautifully and harmoniously that Chelsea have an amazing season. But I also think it's heading, it's such a like all-in approach, isn't it? It's like cashing in everything on this one idea now, Alonso, these players, that it's either like Jordan Henderson and Danny Welbeck with a cheeky photo holding the Premier League trophy at the end of the season being like, ah, we told you. Or it's those two on the pitch, Morgan Rodgers and Cole Palmer running into each other and Jabby Alonso going, why didn't I take this Liverpool job?

54:00Tom Allnutt: You know, like Alonso has come from a season at Real Madrid where, you know, there were punch-ups in the dressing room, you know, and he was basically managing a very talented but young team that, you know, has basically moved on from a previous generation and as a result is missing, is kind of Sergio Ramos's, it's Casemiro's, it's Tony Cruz's, you know, and he probably is coming from that and saying, well, let's not do that again. And James is absolutely right to say his by Leverkusen, you know, success was built upon two or three real kind of older stalwarts as well. Yeah. So like, I think it's an Alonso plan, you know, rather than a Chelsea plan.

54:28Tom Allnutt: I also think more broadly, there's a kind of interesting trend here where like we've been, you know, conditioned for the last kind of 10, 15 years to think that football recruitment is now completely based upon, you know, data, finding young gems from South America or, you know, Southern Europe, the 17-year-olds, the 18-year-olds you put in your academy. And it's almost like there's a bit of a pushback, you know, that suddenly you've got these squads like Spurs and Chelsea and, you know, Arsenal with Christian Norgard last season. Well, you've got all these youngsters who are talented, but it's like, yeah, but you also do need to sometimes sign the obvious guy who everyone's already heard of when he's 31.

55:01Tom Allnutt: It's the Andy Robertson or, you know, the Jordan Henderson. Or the Yeri Tillemans at Manchester United. Right, you know, because they are the ones who kind of blended dressing them. obviously the best thing is it's sort of the admission of failure because you know the the real successful clubs you know grow these players organically right like they become the older statesmen they've come through you don't buy them in at 35 at 36 like it's an admission of recruitment failure from chelsea but it is happening more and more the big clubs even real madrid this summer you know marino's gone in there and said i need more i need more lieutenants you know bernardo silva you know canate possibly rogery like you're looking at players who he's brought in he says actually yeah we need we need old leaders you know not just kind of the young smart gems you get from the data analytics Fabian Hertz though when I interviewed him last season he said Danny Welbeck was the most important player in his team absolutely I think I should stress I think the Danny Welbeck signing is a terrific signing I think it's a brilliant brilliant signing I think there's a world in which Jordan Henderson is a great signing as well it is just such an extreme pivot that I just I'm really enjoying it a position at the end of the season for Chelsea that I will absolutely not hold you to but it's just a bit of fun and I'll go first second first first Third.

56:07Third? Fourth. Come on, Tom. You could have gone with ninth or something. Gregor Robertson here to go. Still crackers and still get angry about it. Let's move on to talk about Tottenham. Speaking of transfers and spending lots of money. Jean-Paul van Hecker in. Matthias Fernandes in. Sandro Tonali in. 200 million already spent. Savinho being lined up potentially from Manchester City. And Roberto Di Zerbi on tour, as reported. by Peter Rutzler saying that there is another Tottenham bomber incoming. Bomber, that's his word, not Peter Rutzler's. Tom, you cover Tottenham often during the regular season.

56:45Who is the bomber? Who's the bomber?

56:47Tom Allnutt: Is it you? I'm not there, so I don't know. But Spurs are very much looking for attackers now. That's the big thing. They're looking, they want two, possibly even three forwards. They've kind of done a lot of work in defence, Van Hecker, Snessi. I personally think good work. Robertson, midfield, Tonali and Fernandes, they've really shored up. They kind of back sit. And Savino, I think, would be a terrific signing, wouldn't he? Yeah, and then you look at what they're looking for now. Savino, for example, has been dragging on for ages. Tottenham have been interested in him for the best part of a year now.

57:14Tom Allnutt: I think there's some frustration among the club that it's not getting done. So City are giving them good vibes and green lights, but without signing things off, you know, and they're sort of waiting and wondering. Other players are interested. I mean, you know, Gini Kruppi, for example, you know, but one that lots of players want. The Bomber level? Bomber level? I think he's Bomber level, yeah. I think he probably is. But yeah, he's got a foot injury, hasn't he? Which I think is complicating things. Cody Gakper, you know, they're looking at these kind of players, I think. Certainly left wingers, possibly kind of more versatile players as well in terms of play, who could play up front.

57:43Tom Allnutt: But I think it's been an impressive summer so far. And I say so far because I do think that at the end of last season, if you'd asked me what is the main problem with the Tottenham team, apart from the injuries, I think it's the lack of creativity and the lack of firepower, lack of chance creation. So have they solved their number one problem? Not yet, but I do think they've done some very impressive business. Fascinating from De Zerbi as well, isn't it? Thinking about a Xabi Alonso plan, this is clearly a Roberto De Zerbi plan. Tottenham are all in on him, aren't they? Especially when letting him go into press conferences and talk about bombers, because we're going to hold them to it.

58:13If they end up taking Liam De Lappe on a season-long loan, then we'll be right on them, because that is not a bomba signing.

58:19Tom Allnutt: I don't know if they're letting him, I think he's just doing it. They're going, for God's sake, Christ, I'm not sure Cody Gapro quite qualifies as a bomba signing. Anyway, speaking of Cody Gapro, leads us on to finish with Liverpool. and the potential move for PSG star Bradley Barkler. Firstly, we'd all be excited to see Barkler in the Premier League, would we not? He's a lovely player. Excited. Look at the beam spreading across Alison Rudd's face. No. Just what Liverpool need? Weirdly, I think, I don't know the stats off the top of my head, but I feel like I've spent most of the season watching him come off the bench and completely light up games.

58:51I'm sure he started lots as well. But I mean, there's just something about him about to come on, his pace and you know sometimes it's hard to come off the bench and he just no matter what minute he starts from he plays as though he's been playing the whole match he's just don't think it's then strange you know in terms of we're talking about narratives and bombers and things like that spending a hundred million pounds on the guy who comes off the bench to replace only because of where he's coming from and there's there's a plethora of attackers so I think I've heard that he's interested in Liverpool and I can see why being a starter for a club like Liverpool would be very seductive to him I think he'd fit in really well and there is a Mo Salah shaped hole there it makes so much sense it'll probably just come down to money Is that the hole though because Barclay is more of a left winger does they not more need a kind of long term Salah replacement on the right do you not think?

59:46I think it'd work very well on the right I think he needs to play

59:48Tom Allnutt: Rio and Gamora Yeah Just start He's good on the left. I mean, maybe you might say he's young enough that he can be moulded into a right winger and become the next Mo Salah. But I think, you know, primarily he's played on the left as well. Yeah. Interesting times. But you'd be... I give it my seal of approval, Tom, yes. Thank God. There you go, Liverpool. That's all you needed to get that deal done. Alison Rudd is happy with it. Loads and loads discussed. If you have got views on whether it's FIFA or transfers or Newcastle or Tottenham or anything, do get in touch with me. We would love hearing from you.

1:00:16Tom.Clark at thetimes.co.uk. But we will leave it there for now. Tom Allmott, James Gearbrand. and Alison Rudd. Thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back next week. We'll see you then.

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