FIFA Special: What now for Infantino?

0:00This week on The Business Podcast, episode one of Power Struggle, the first in our summer miniseries on energy. We're talking about the frailty of the UK electricity grid. We're dealing with tropical-like temperatures in a country that has infrastructure that largely wasn't built for that. Join me, Hannah Previtt. And me, Dominic O 'Connell, for weekly conversations from the world of business and entrepreneurship. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts or find our channel on YouTube by searching Times Business.

0:38Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. What now for FIFA President Gianni Infantino and his plan to sell stakes in the World Cup? I'm Tom Clark and I'm joined for another special episode on the biggest story in football by the man who broke the news and has led the way on it all week, the chief sports reporter for The Times, Martin Ziegler. Martin, we're recording this on Friday afternoon. It's been another remarkable 24 hours and probably at the end of one of the busiest weeks as a journalist for you in your career since you broke that news on Tuesday.

1:12I offered listeners a quick update on yesterday's show after UEFA announced that they would boycott FIFA competitions if these plans went ahead. I gave the listeners that statement. Just tell us how significant a moment was that? and obviously the FA statement too? I mean, I think it's one of the most significant moments in football. I mean, I'm not talking about what happens on the pitch, but what happens off the pitch. Nothing like it I can think has ever happened before in their sort of long history of FIFA, UEFA football, the FA. You know, to have 54 European countries saying they're going to boycott the World Cup.

1:49And this isn't a threat. This is a decision that had been taken. I mean, it's just remarkable. and not surprisingly it's caused a sort of catatlysm within the whole football ecosystem and effectively kills off this project. Whatever FIFA say about it. Yeah, we were waiting for that news yesterday, of course. Did you expect the boycott to be the decision? Obviously, you know, a man as well-connected as you. We thought it would be a strong response but I think a lot of people were surprised by how strong because as you say, stepping away from the World Cup is the biggest decision a governing body can make, isn't it?

2:28I mean, yes, but it's actually the only thing they could have done. Yeah. I mean, just saying we're going to vote against it, that wasn't going to be enough. Because John and Pidu, oh, well, it's just the Europeans. I've got everybody else on my side. So they had to do something really significant. And people speak in favour of it, just about everybody. You know, the English FA did, the Scottish FA. lots of people and it was a unanimous decision yeah well so that takes us back to kind of choose your thursday sorry what what happened next just take the listeners kind of through what happened next through thursday night and into friday morning so we had uh fifa kind of trying to double down blaming the media for inaccurate reporting always the media isn't it It's always the media, yeah.

3:19The pesky media. And then saying that they're going to continue with what they call the consultation process. And then a series of fairly devastating blaze, really, for FIFA and Infantino. First of all, the Asian Football Confederation said there'd be the position of where you're talking about publicly football boycotts by the Europeans and basically said they're not going to support this proposal either. Then you had two personal interventions, actually really, really significant. One is the senior advisor to Johnny Infantino over the last five years, especially at the World Cup in America. That's Carlos Cordero.

4:03Now, he's a former investment banker with Goldman Sachs, an American, been at Infantino's side during the whole World Cup. And he's resigned now in protest at this. And as he said, if anyone knows about sort of investments and private investments in sport and football, he does. And he thinks it's a terrible idea for the FIFA, for the World Cup, for the national associations. I mean, you can't get much more worse publicity than that for your proposal. and then Kevin Lamour who's a Frenchman who's the chief operating officer at FIFA fairly widely respected person he's put out a sort of equally devastating statement saying this is the project of one person and describing that the failure to keep any well any of the FIFA vice presidents the council the members most of the staff informed about what was going on.

5:03He describes it as a lie by omission and a lack of respect. And he's not resigned, but he says this may cost me my job, but at least I'll sleep well tonight. Yeah, it's a remarkable statement, isn't it? You know, as we've said, we've just had this just before we came on air to record the show. Not only must this project not go ahead for obvious reasons that need not be listed here, but the time has now come for football political leaders to ask themselves the right questions and make the right decisions. I mean, he might well get sacked, but he's going down swinging isn't he it's a remarkable moment and we're talking about all these people who have opposed it people in their own right in their positions in fifa and federations themselves has anyone come out and publicly backed infantino and this plan there's a couple of um african nations have done but uh few and far between even the african nations where his power bases yeah have been reluctant to do so um i kind of get the impression that they're sort of watching what is happening and sitting on the fence, seeing which way the wind's blowing.

6:01Yeah. And we've had Prime Minister Andy Burnham has weighed in again, hasn't he, after his initial statement about the Times story on Tuesday? Yeah, I think this is quite significant because while we had Cordero and LeMond talking about the project more broadly, Andy Burnham has gone for the jugular. He says, my view is that this was an outrageous suggestion and it shows that the FIFA president is the wrong man to lead the organisation. yeah it couldn't be uh couldn't be more clear than that couldn't be any punchier than that i mean in terms of that position then what now for gianni infantino i mean myself and james restall our head of sport and you have been on radios and things you know me and james have just been trying to help you out with your workload in terms of appearances we had times radio john pinar asking me yesterday martin you know this is the end for infantino and i kept saying look I don't want to be the guy who comes on a radio station and say, yeah, he's off, he's done, like in the way of the football manager because of his power.

6:59But what does he do now? You mentioned a doubling down earlier. Do you imagine that doubling down will continue? I think he'll fight for time. Yeah. For him, what is life without the FIFA presidency, without his$6 million a year? Where does he go? I think probably perhaps go and work for the Trump administration. That's about it. Maybe Saudi Arabia. so for somebody who's you know his life has been sort of mixing with celebrities world leaders and flying on private jets it's he will want to cling on to that but I think he's going to find it very difficult and he will try he'll be trying to rally his supporters see if he can survive at least until March when the elections are but sooner or later he's going to find he's going to face the challenge that's for sure do you get the sense from when the news broke and all the people that you've spoken to and all the brilliant articles that you've written for the times do you get the sense that he really thought this would pass because obviously the the objection and the kind of backlash that fifa and he have faced has been so strong you know some of those comments that you mentioned from senior advisors and chief operating officers that is so striking of a proposal that is so unappealing to so many people did did it is it is it just the nature that we seem to be seeing that this was not consulted with or was there just an exception that oh so many of my ideas have passed this one will go through too i think so i think he i think he sort of got reckless really uh maybe sort of agreed sort of clouded his judgment i mean i think it probably didn't help that they were rushed into it by the times revealing the yes revealing the uh the the scheme before they wanted it out um so maybe that that kind of affected some of the planning and um didn't they didn't get quite the pr that they wanted because it had already been revealed and the backlash had started before they announced it yeah well final question martin before i let you go for hopefully a well-earned drink on a friday night um this story is going to keep going it's one of the biggest stories in sport certainly one of the biggest stories i have i have ever worked on what where do you think it goes next what do you think we're waiting for who are we waiting to hear from of significance in the in the coming hours and days well obviously fifa first uh is the most significant i mean when they're gonna withdraw the project because they'll have to do that um and I think that's all and then what Infantino is going to do himself if he if he does anything on that um I think those are going to be the main ones and then probably what the the UEFA CONCACAF what will they will do about Infantino's position as well I mean there is this opportunity to call a vote under confidence you need I think it's 41 of the 211 member nations to do that to call an emergency or extraordinary FIFA Congress.

10:03So that's a possibility too. Yeah. And if you had to, an impossible guest, do you think there's a world in which this proposal gets withdrawn, but Gianni Infantino stays as FIFA president? Perhaps in the short term, but probably only until March. Really interesting. Amazing stuff. As you mentioned, Martin, brilliant reporting from you for The Times this week, which brought about this story. Absolutely seismic stuff in the world of football. Amazing work. Thank you so much for joining us. listeners make sure you're following martin across all social media platforms and keep an eye on the times website martin has been first with this story all the way and he will continue to be so in the coming days brilliant stuff martin thank you for joining me thank you too for listening we'll be back with the regular show on monday