First weekend: Sunderland staying up; City for the title and Liverpool don't need Isak

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2:09Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times. The Premier League is back and there's so much to discuss from the opening weekend. Sunderland's return to the top flight got off to a brilliant and noisy start at the Stadium of Light. Does their win against West Ham and Brentford's defeat at Nottingham Forest mean that the Premier League isn't a closed shop after all? We'll also discuss wins for Liverpool, Manchester City, Tottenham and Arsenal. Draws at Chelsea and Brighton and hear about some grumbles of Newcastle fans. Apparently they're upset about some bloke called Isaac. This was a bit odd, I've never heard of him.

2:40I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today to discuss and dissect all of that, we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the reporter and tactics analyst Hamza Kalik Lunat and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is here as usual. Team, we're back. The Premier League's back. Just how excited are you? Out of 10. Gregor's got a big grin because he didn't do one of those jokes about the former footballer. No, no, no. He misses them really. He misses them really. Rumour has it he's got them all written on his fridge as a little kind of memento as his glorious playing is.

3:12But you missed a trick because you could have described him as the former footballer who now loves the tiger who came to tea. Ah, yes. We managed to work the Tiger 2 games team back in to the show, despite you two rambling on about it before we started recording. Anyway, let's head north, just as I like to always do, let's head north to Sunderland. And a jump in Stadium of Light where Regis Labris's team picked up a fantastic 3-0 win against West Ham. Martin Hardy was there for the Sunday Times and he sent me a little clip with a few thoughts. This is what I had to say. The first half has that excitement and the energy of a 46 ,000 Stadium of Light crowd on an opening day of a season for the first time in the top division since 2017.

3:52Sonnenstrand found that first period a little bit difficult. But the thing that may offer as much hope to Sonnenstrand fans as anything else is the fact that Regis Lebris is a very, very pragmatic coach. So there's none of the idealism of Russell Martin or Vincent Kompany. We want to play a certain way. Le Brice wants to win games of football or draw games of football and accumulate enough points to stay in the division. To that end, there will be periods of games which happen in the first half where Sonnen are very, very content to sit deep at home on a sunny day with everybody bursting with energy and allow West Ham to have control of the ball for certain periods on the understanding that at some point they believe they will fashion a chance and that is exactly what happened in the second half against West Ham.

4:37But West Ham, that if you were a West Ham fan, by the way, you were thinking, we might be one of the teams that Sunnard are looking to catch because along with the likes of Brentford and Wolves, West Ham looked very, very stale. They were struggling for ideas, which was emphatically enforced by Graham Pott afterwards in a post-match press conference in which they used the word kind of back to basics about seven times. Sunnard fans didn't care about that. Dan Ballard continues to be this win everything kind of a header and dangerous at set pieces scores again scores a purer goal than the one he scored against Coventry Granit Xhaka stands out as being a leader on the pitch we were told afterwards by Le Brice that Granit Xhaka had addressed a celebrating dressing room after the match and said for 30 seconds be calm, be humble this is just the start we have to the togetherness is so important fully aware that there are more difficult days ahead.

5:32They now have three points. Their next game is Burnley away on Saturday. If they win that game and suddenly for a newly promoted team to have six points after two games, we'll show you why right now Sunderland fans, if you ever bum into them, are walking around with a smile on their face. Martin Hardy there, extolling the virtues of Sunderland being back in the Premier League. We're back. They are back. Gregor, we talked about the Stadium of Light being jumping when the team are good. This was a great example of that. And we talked about them on the EFL show last season about maybe them being a bit of an unknown quantity this season.

6:10But my God, that was good gear, wasn't it? It certainly was, yeah. And they're even more unknown now because of the number of signings. Yeah. Up to 12 now. Couldn't believe it. They're going to blow Nottingham Forest's huge splurge in 2022 out of the water, I think, by the end of the window. Already up to about 130 million. you kind of wonder how can they do this but they were it's the kind of same thing they were starting from such a low base I think the squad in the playoff final was worth like 10 million full of kids players are signed for like 1 or 2 million from all across Europe they're a very clearly defined model now they're just turbocharged for the Premier League and they've been quite kind of cleverly run actually in the last few years although it's been quite frugal and they've had the issues we've spoken about like the decision to get rid of Tony Mowbray things like that Michael Bealfield experiment they've got more right than wrong so that should give Sunderland fans some confidence that a lot of the signings will be a success and like someone like Simon Odingra I think is an absolute no-brainer I think he was a star for Brighton a lot of the time when he came on in the short periods where he got a run in the team Mayenda looks like he's got the pace and tenacity as well as the clinical edge he was playing out wide wasn't he in the championship last season so the idea of him playing in that central role is a little bit different but shows that Le Brice is not just like well this is the team because I mean as you say but just to be exact there's literally about two, three players in that starting line-up three yeah Hume, Ballard and Meander yeah there's only three that started from last season that's also slightly you know there's slight sadness about that too all these guys achieved something remarkable and then they're all either sitting on the bench I know well Enzo Le Fay who they signed from Roma for 20 million a huge part of their promotion on the bench.

7:57It's incredible. But it was a deserved win. Some very, very good goals scored, I thought. And as I said earlier, the stadium was well behind the team. It's an absolutely massive cliche to start the first show of the season, but talking about away teams up north with big backings being a tough place to go, Alison. But it could well be true. Yeah, no, I thought, my first thought when I saw the result was that could this, the big question I think is, Could this be as significant as when Brentford came up and they won on their opening match against Arsenal? And in just one match, you thought, ah, all the things we thought they might suffer from, naivety.

8:40Just the jitters of being in the Premier League, the fact that it's different from the championship. I know Sunderland have been in the Premier League before, but it's been a gap. And what that did, that first game that Brentford won against Arsenal, was it just meant people stopped all that fearful talk and spoke about all the good things that they could see. And that must be in the dressing room and in training. It must mean so much to know that all the things you'd been saying in-house came true and you may or may not have been able to block out the cynicism, but you proved it. And so it's like a complete flip.

9:22so not so very long ago people were just automatically putting Sunderland in the oh they'll probably go straight back down they were they just were and now they're not now you've already said oh closed shop's broken it's like but it can be just one result it can be it can be and we shouldn't get carried away as much as Sunderland fans get carried away no but I think I think you can and you should in a sense because it's it's setting out that you're not naive last season none of the promoter teams won until October 5th. The season before that, it was September 30th by the time they beat a team that wasn't a fellow promoted team.

9:59So the confidence that it gives and the uplift and the mood and the spirit and the belief is undoubtedly really important and particularly they've got a reasonable start. If they get a few more points on the board then they'll find themselves in the place. Doesn't it completely change? If you've got Sunderland coming up on your fixture list now for the next few weeks, I think it changes is the way you prepare for that game. Yeah. Your opposition. Yeah, yeah, big time. They've got Burnley next weekend away and then I think they've got Brentford at home. So as you say, Gregor. They could have nine points.

10:31They're up. They're safe. Sunderland, lads, you've done it. You've cracked it. Hot take, dear one. Absolutely cracked it. A couple of minutes in and we've already dropped some clichés and given the hot take that Sunderland are safe. Hamza, they have got a very exciting team though, haven't they? There's a lot of players there. Gregor mentioned Odingra. I think Rufus in goal looks quite special. I love seeing Granit Xhaka back in the Premier League as well. Any thoughts on Sunderland? Yeah, I think when you look at what Nottingham Forest did a few years ago spending lots of money and getting in a better squad and breaching the rules that's what I would do if I was promoted.

11:02Honestly, I'd... Take the FFP hit. I would take the points deduction Quickly, they won't break the rules though because Forest had lost about£95 million in the three year cycle to get promoted. Sunderland it's peanuts because as I said their profile their blueprint, sorry, was signing players like 19, 20, 21 for just a couple of million quid here and there and they've also had the sale of Joe Bellingham although I think that'll go into the next year's financial things but I don't think they have that same fear I think as I say they were starting from such a low base and they'd had a kind of reset in League 1 not a high wage bill so it was almost they were almost kind of ahead of schedule so I don't think they have those fears Forrest signed 22 players and had lost a lot of money on the way to the Premier League.

11:54Yes, what I would do is... The key thing is how good is your squad, right? And I think although Suns have made these additions, it's still probably a squad that is in the bottom three of the league and I don't think you can do too much to sort of change that fact. What do you mean by that? Do you mean that based on experience, talent? You'd still put them in the bottom three? I think so, yeah. And the additions are nice and what I think it does really well is it sets them up, like Gregor says, for the future. so if they go down and then they return in two years time they're in a much better position so I think it's nice business they scored two headers this game really good headers great headers Ballard I mean I'm a football league fan so I'm loving it stick the ball in the box great header love that he stayed forward as well if you're a Sunderland fan absolutely enjoy this but don't bet on it on them staying up is all I'm saying oh Hamza Hamza for a call we're honest enjoy it I'm not here to ruin your day.

12:48We had them financially liable, you know, solid, and, you know, staying in the Premier League two minutes ago. Just don't bet on it. You're going to have nine points before you can hick up. I'll bet against that. Really? Yeah. How much? How much? 30 quid, 50 quid to charity. Wow, bloody hell. That's a good opening gambit. We're only 10 minutes in. Absolutely loving this show. Absolutely brilliant. Alison, you take him on? 50 quid for your favourite charity? Are you going with nine points, though? That's a terrible bet, isn't it? Burnley and Brentford. Burnley away, Brentford at home. So they've got three in the bag.

13:19I think that's nine points. Really? Yeah. You're going to have to shake it. I know this is a box. You can have seven to nine if you want. I'll give you a range. It's giving you seven to nine. I'd take that. I'm taking it, whatever that means. Can I have a handshake just to make it official? I know we're on a podcast, but listeners, I can confirm they've shaken hands on that. Excited for a couple of weeks' time to find out which way that bet goes. Sunderland, brilliant. As much as Hamza is quite rightly saying that, you know, it's only one game. Let's not get carried away. But West Ham, Alison.

13:45we talked about West Ham in our preview shows our club by club previews a bit of a worry about Graham Potter and it's interesting you mentioned that Sunderland you know everyone put them in there bottom threes and things like that I've got a big group of mates on WhatsApp who do the Premier League predictions that start the season I'm sure we all do this do your guesses on what's going to be and only one of us in the group had the promoted three as the bottom three a lot of the others either had West Ham or Brentford in there and this was before the start of the season so either they've got some very clever mates or they're just quite bold and fancy winning a bet but this is not a good look for West Ham No, no, I think I said in the preview show that Graham Potter was one of the managers under most pressure in his opening game because it was against a newly promoted club and it would be tough at the Stadium of Light and sure enough he does nothing to counter those problems his run of form carrying on from last season is very poor he doesn't he finds it he's struggling to win games and his demeanour and language is is worrying I think I mean he's had his excuse before was he hadn't had a pre-season now he's had a full pre-season to instill his ideas and coaching methods and personality and after that game he's talking about the need to go back to basics the basics aren't being done right and also while at the same time also sounding slightly deluded and saying there were large periods of the game where they played well well you know I think you struggle to find those periods and so I think he's now under even more pressure than he was before and he's had the dreaded vote of confidence from the board which to have to have a vote of confidence after your opening game of the season is absolutely ludicrous I mean it's not an official vote of confidence but for Karen Bade to have said that on the radio the next day was probably not help No No So it's almost It's almost laughingstock territory now They just feel like they're drifting I mean there was very little new To look at or feel about West Ham You know Juicel left back Almost scored in fact Ballard with a great clearance off the line I think he'll be a good sign And they needed a Bowen looked good again But Bowen always looks good in this West Ham team Yeah it's all built around Bowen The thing I don't really get with To Potter point Alison Is that following You know you follow these days Not just reports and watch it on telly, you see social media, you see fans, you listen to your friends who are fans.

16:15Anyone, whether I knew them and they were West Ham fans or people seeing them on social media, all saying the same thing. Why has he picked that midfield? We're never going to win with that midfield. And I know fans all think they're cleverer than the manager, but like surely it says something when all of your own fans are saying the same thing. I mean, to your point, Alison, about the pre-season, like what's gone on? Like, does he need more signings or should he change formation, Gregor? like what I mean what's the alternative what's the alternative they've got Edson Alvarez who has shown flashes of looking like he could cut it in the Premier League but actually not sure he can he's not that mobile and he's a bit of a loose cannon and he's always getting booked I'm sure some people would like to see George Erthy when he's fit he was exciting on loan at Bristol City last season for a long time West Ham fans I've wanted to see some of the academy players who are very good given a chance so we've got Oliver Scarls as well who's come through from his left back but he's come through and got some game time so Potter does show that he can he's willing to do it but in the midfield issue yeah they don't have many options I think they just feel like they're drifting they've not really made any significant signings I don't think in the transfer market Callum Wilson Not a great debut from Hermanson in goal I think some of those some of those goals conceded.

17:41So yes, some worries for West Ham, West Ham fans. Get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Obviously, Leeds playing Everton tonight on Monday night and we'll discuss Burnley later. But we've already broached this theme that maybe the close shop isn't as it is. Gregor, another team giving hope to the promoted teams. Brentford beaten 3-1 by Nottingham Forest. Was 3-1 the accurate score? What should the score have been based on the game? 5-0. 5-0? Yeah. I mean that's not good for Brentford fans is it? It's true I mean it could have been more than 3-0 at half time and Brentford improved marginally in the second half but Forest still had the better chances Gibbs White had an acrobatic effort that went narrowly over and then their goal came from a penalty from a handball so the first half they were a shambles Brentford were a shambles How so?

18:34Positionally tactically confidence wise what are we talking about? Everything they were architects of their own downfall on a number of occasions the second goal was it the second goal the third goal third goal except Van den Berg just had the ball at the back tried to play pass into midfield it was woefully inaccurate and Elliot Anderson pounced on it like Forrest actually I should say played differently too they played right on the front foot they pressed high these are not things that you expect to see from Forrest they are well known for being low playing on the counter I think they probably sensed that this is a team that's in transition and with a new manager who's never managed a game in his life let's go for it and it worked Great pass from Anderson as well What a hit Imagine how satisfying it must be to ping a ball like that First time perfectly weighted So Anderson was outstanding I think England have a hole in midfield and he should be given the chance to fill it he's that good and Gibbs White after obviously quite an eventful summer 60 million bid from Spurs like Forrest sort of making the sort of a legal argument against that and then the video with Maranakis that was released where people thought it looked like a hostage video but it wasn't clearly it wasn't yeah I just made that definitely wasn't definitely wasn't a hostage video make that point very clearly all was completely forgotten he was absolutely dazzling brilliant outstanding like great little pirouette so he needs to be in the England team as well well he's already in the squad and he's an option it's only August and the Scottish bloke's already started the England selection they don't have a hole at number 10 not even anywhere near the World Cup and he's gagging for it oh I would leave Foden out he can't wait he's absolutely buzzing anyway those two are standing Sangari is well behind them so they completely bossed in midfield and as I say pressed high to the pitch and Brentford just did not know what to do and for us to the team and he scored one goal over the summer I know yeah that shows up pre-season one goal in seven games and they were typically ruthless and Doy got a debut goal but back to Brentford Any bright sparks at all?

20:43Anything that you're like oh I can see what they're trying to do there? Did Shada look pacey when he came on? He's not really much fit Shada was an improvement he said he's missed a lot of pre-season let's just remind ourselves of the context they lost their manager they lost their captain Norgaard they've lost Mbwemo who's a top scorer they're going to lose Wissa who is their top scorer in the Premier League like ever and the coaching staff and four members of the coaching staff Mikhail Damsgaard his wife gave birth in the morning of the game so they missed Mikhail Damsgaard as well and Shadow who was the next kind of you know big thing the next sort of bright bright spark for Brentford has missed half a pre-season and only came on at half time a lot of a lot of problems but we knew that and we knew that kind of made the appointment of Keith Andrews especially bold brave and this was not a good start for him.

21:38I hope he does well and clearly they've seen something in him but this was a very bad start. Do you believe Gregor that there would be out there a manager that could have handled all that list you've just given of potential difficulties? It's a huge list. Of course it would have been a challenge for anyone but it's almost It's all about, you know, for the same reason we just spoke about Sunderland and the positivity of a good start after being promoted and how that raises sort of expectations and hope. Brentford needed the same thing. They need the same thing still in the first few games. Otherwise, all the kind of pressure and the scrutiny that Andrews was already facing because he's a rookie manager, because he was the set-piece coach last year, because it's like the biggest sort of...

22:29I said a thing that was a bit rude to Hamza the other day, sort of balls out move by Brentford it felt that way it's like this is us this is what we do, this is our process, we always hire from within, who cares what any of you think, they needed a good start because otherwise it'll have the opposite effect in the squad You've been in his presence a few times what's he like as a bloke? He's hugely confident Overconfident you think? I don't know he's just a very confident guy in front of the cameras, he will present brilliantly he's like from from everything I've heard he's very firm and exudes the same confidence on the training training ground and was he still like that after the game though?

23:12yeah the other thing that was interesting is that he used the same phrase as Graham Potter he said basics is seen as a dirty word nowadays in football but we lack the basics in this game so two of the managers who are finding themselves under pressure after really bad performances it's almost a way of slightly shifting shifting any sort of responsibility onto the players what can I do about the basics that's the kind of feeling you get from that and he might be right in fact he was because three players bumped into each other gave Chris Wood a chance to score from a set piece the irony of all ironies after five minutes what can he do about that like set Vandenberg's pass what can he do about that there's a lot of things he could do nothing about and probably Potter feels the same but it's a bad way to start the season to say your players need to get back to basics or weren't doing the basics properly What Greg just mentioned a minute ago was particularly fascinating the style thing right because Forest's game last season was built on counter-stacking, they only had a majority possession and I mean literally more than 50 % on 7 occasions last season and most that they had was 55 % so it's never like they had 60, 65 70 % of those 7 matches they won twice and in this match they had 55 % and I think a majority of those came, well, three of those came in the final month of the season as well.

24:34I think against, I've got it here, sorry, against Leicester, sorry, Brentford and Chelsea, so towards the end of the season. And I think it's so interesting that they're able to shift their style and actually play in such a dominant, attacking way. That really speaks well to Nuno and the way that he's been able to adapt. I asked about it afterwards too and you know is this the goal of the season to be kind of exude a bit more control and he sort of the way Nuno does smiles and says that's every coach's ambition so he's kind of but I think you could read in between the lines you could say yes that probably But it's great they can do both right you just revert back to what they did last season when they need to Absolutely and he's been quite pointed in the week leading up to the kick off about like they need more signings they need more depth they're in Europe this season and before the kick-off Omari Hutchinson James McAtee both great signing both presented to the crowd they've got a striker as well coming in from Wren I think so they've spent £100 million in the space of a few days so there's no reason again big hot takes on the first day but everyone thinks Forest will fall away now and there's like there's that stat about how the average number of points that teams drop off after if you're not a big six team after making it into Europe and it's like 14.

25:56It's a lot. Maybe Forrest can buck that trend. But that used to be Brentford's thing, didn't it? Changing tactics depending on who they were facing. I don't think Frank really got enough credit for how varied Brentford's performances were. But how would you sum up what Brentford were trying to do? What were they? You couldn't tell what they were trying to do. You couldn't tell? They didn't have the opportunity to show what they were trying to do. They didn't keep possession long enough. They weren't able to get out. they weren't able to play through Forrest pressed. There was nothing, nothing visible in that first half.

26:27You can understand them being surprised though because Forrest pressed, right? Because the whole thing that you saw last season was Forrest being a super counter-attacking team and where they struggled was when teams said, all right then, you have the ball, you can't counter-attack us and that's why I mentioned that bit towards the end of the season. So imagine you do all your prep. You're like, okay, yeah, we're going to have lots of the ball, we're going to see what Forrest do. You've got your first goal kick, why are they jumping high up? And you play the first pass short and suddenly they're onto you and thinking all the prep that we did has been thrown out the window because Forrest have just unveiled a completely new tactic that no one really expected.

27:02Okay, yeah, you prepare for different eventualities, but for Forrest to play like that is a surprise. Maybe Brentford were just on the wrong end of a surprise, maybe. But to your point about Anderson as well, that quality for him to really sort of dominate possession and be a tempo setter in midfield. I didn't know he had it until I saw the Under-21 European Championship this summer. And I think he'll have the opportunity to show that skill more and more if Forrest play a bit like this more often. But the key thing is, right, just mix it up. Some games you dominate possession, just marginally, right?

27:33So just 55%. Other games you drop down to 38 and you kill teams on the counter. Being able to mix it up is hugely valuable. Yeah, promising signs for Nottingham Forrest. Some worries for Brentford. Let's look at the other games that took place on Sunday. Chelsea nil, Crystal Palace nil. this game dominated by the reintroduction of a law that I'd literally never heard of. Honestly, no idea. Maybe that's embarrassing for a sports editor to admit who hosts the football podcast, not a bloody clue. When I read this, anyone else? No. Come on. Yeah, you played the game. There you go. That makes me feel better.

28:02We have a qualified referee here, don't we? Exactly. Come on, Alison. Well, when I refereed, it wasn't in the laws, to be fair. Is it a necessary law? It's just ridiculous, isn't it? I'm sorry. It's a foul. I'm feeling... What? yeah yeah the foul but not the actual thing they got penalised for it wasn't it wasn't disallowed for the foul yeah I know that's my point it's just a foul why do they need this law why do they need half the laws anyway exactly yeah just cut the rule book in half yeah well that's what a lot of people were saying weren't they that if actually you'd said oh it was a foul by gay you know moving people out the way or whatever then alright fine no problem yeah but the funniest part was that not funny for Crystal Palace they did the bar review and then the referee, as they do now, has his little microphone and he tells the crowd the reason for disallowing the goal.

28:51And they talk over him. He's giving you the reason. It took them half an hour to work out the real reason why the goal had been disallowed. It's like you get a sort of blindness. You know what you know and you won't hear anything different. They just couldn't hear something that didn't make any sense to them. Maybe it's going to be an adapted chant this season. We don't know what you're doing. Not you don't know what you're doing. we don't know what you're doing. But they've loaded pressure to maintain this. Yeah, exactly. You start the opening weekend, we're talking about Sunderland brilliant win, the referees have now made themselves, why, you've got to get this weird obscure lore out about where you're standing in the wall.

29:25I mean, it's even worse than like the directives that always come out every year about, you know, there's always something new, grappling in the box this year. You go, okay, going to crack down on that and it's forgotten by, you know, October. They can't forget this. They can't deviate from this now. so good luck guys they can they just don't do it again that's the thing I think I agree with Hamza I don't think they will do it again and it'll just be this weird quirk which costs Crystal Palace probably a win at Chelsea on the opening day no no I don't think you can because the thing of the things of pointing to like grappling in the box it's all largely subjective this is an objective rule it's like if you're within the distance and it's in a wall you've got to do it how are you measuring a metre though?

30:07I mean it's entirely seriously because unless the referee literally as he did later in the game marks out a point which is a metre within the wall you're then estimating and then it becomes an estimation either by the referee themselves or the VAR so then you're going to have slight infringements which I think generally people will be okay with right if you are roughly if you let's say you're 10 centimetres within the metre yeah that's not against the spirit of the rule if you are like the spirit of the rule You see what I mean, right? Because there's always room for interpretation. It's like the eight-second rule.

30:45Which club was penalised for it? Earlier, it was the team that was trying to... Burnley were penalised for it, right? There were other goalkeepers that held the ball for slightly longer than eight seconds. But the idea is not to be super, super stringent on it, right? It's just to speed the game up. If you are taking the mickey, then the referee is going to say, OK, I'm going to give the corner here. And in certain situations, maybe the goalkeeper has the ball, the defenders and opposition players in front of them, they're holding on to it because they can't release it because of that player. And yeah, it might be nine seconds, it might be ten.

31:13But the idea is to actually just move the game on, not to be super judicious and officious and say, that's 8.1 seconds. Likewise, that's 10 centimetres within the metre. We've really covered everything. I think they will generally try and be liberal with this. That makes a fair point. But again, if he's within 10 centimetres of the metre, then, why have the rule? What does that matter? Does that matter? because you need some sort of definition to work with because it's not literally the lines on the pitch which are quite clear but why does it matter in the first place? Why is that rule there? To stop interference with the wall Yeah but if they're not standing right next to them if they're within a metre like just inside a metre how are they interfering with them?

31:52They're lying the walls, lying of sight what is the problem? Players in the wall are going to be shouting Ref, law 13, law 13 look at him, law 13 We're getting into the OETR it's ridiculous Yeah, anyway also another reminder of football being back fantasy football being back Mark Gay on my bench again another away six points clean sheet honestly I hate this game so much every single weekend of the season last season how many times are you doing fantasy football this year? Yeah Good start? I don't know probably I don't know you don't know how many points you got after the opening weekend? No Absolutely No but I have Haaland and I have Salah so yeah I'm sure I'll do fine We're going to be talking about Manchester City and Liverpool in the second half of the show let's finish part one talking about Arsenal Manchester United and we're going to talk about it for about 30 seconds because it might have been the big game of the weekend but it was a bit boring.

32:39No, I'm joking. Firstly, just on the decisions again, that's a slight link with Chelsea. Are we all all right with the Bayern, dear? Mr. Defender over here? Yes. Yeah, fine. Nothing wrong. No discussion. Alison? I would agree with that. Hamza? It's quite difficult when you're actually in the air and someone contests the ball with you because it's like in rugby, right? If you're in the air and someone challenges you there, it's a very different challenge that you'll get in rugby but as in you are in a semi-vulnerable position. So I sympathise with him, but the flat was still pathetic. You can't get around that.

33:13Not a great attempt to come for the ball. But Manchester United otherwise, Hamza, you were at least impressed with the signs that Ruben Amarim has had some work done with this team over the season and with their man-to-man pressing. Yeah, they were good. Yeah. The amount of times I watched them last season and maybe they won a match and you're struggling to see what the idea was. here I saw the idea I thought it's interesting you say that I saw a Manchester United fan on some kind of forum or something saying I'd much rather this where I can see what they're trying to do and it looks like progress and lose 1-0 to a kind of slightly unfortunate goal than win and not have any idea what we're doing yeah as a precedent for the season because then you think that it's more likely that you'll pick up points over the course of the season they play like this yeah I thought Cunha was good I thought Mbemo was good the way that they pressed was organised it caused problems for Arsenal Arsenal struggled to retain possession as they usually did They tried to go a bit more direct.

34:05It really didn't work. That's not to say Manchester United were at a level where you go, yeah, that's a top four, top five team. No. But they moved the ball quite well. They had transitions that looked pretty threatening. They didn't always get the shot off in the right way. There was a Cunha chance where he ran through the middle and then was stopped by Saliba because he's fast and strong. And they had Cunha's shot, Bermos' shot. Yeah, there was stuff to like. The way that they pressed was pretty good. so yeah it bodes well not so well for Arsenal but again we're only looking at 90 minutes of action so we can't be too sort of yeah hang on before we get a love-in on Amarim isn't he slightly wasting Brian and Boomer though playing him as an inside forward effectively I wouldn't have called it a love-in by the way I'd have just said it was a bit of light positivity I think inside the studio outside the studio in the world there's been a bit of a oh it might be beautiful now at Manchester United nah I just like him because he's got good chat because it was a reasonable performance but I do think you'd get a lot more out of Mbumo if he was playing on the flank coming in as he did off the end in this system unfortunately he does he does like wing back yeah why not I will say that I did think it was a bit odd we're talking about Sunderland and you know setting your stall out for the season and messaging and all that kind of stuff I did think it was a bit weird to land a big signing in Benjamin Sesko and not like start him just as a kind of presenteeism type thing just as a bit of chess beating we've got Mbumo we've got Cunha and we've got Sesco look Man United are back etc etc and give Arsenal something to be a bit more worried about maybe anyone agree?

35:39No? Arsenal be able to have seen him in training and how long they've had him had him there and also you know Giocares was thrown in and he didn't really pull up many trees or like complete more than four passes I'm not convinced by Giocares at Arsenal but I mean I got told off from Arsenal fan what I said about them last week told off? yeah you genuinely look quite upset about that was he a good friend of yours? I listened back and I thought I was absolutely right. I do try and reflect. Honestly, I'll listen back. But yeah, I'm not quite sure that Arsenal quite have the balance right yet. They did try and go a bit more direct, as in the transition was very poor.

36:14That's a big thing about that. We know we're talking about Nottingham Forest making changes to the system and the style of play. Arsenal, we said in the pre-season show, need more goals, want to score more goals, don't be overly reliant on Kaio Saka and then scoring from a corner again. Yeah, set piece and then nothing really after that, right? There was the Saka chance right at the end that was blocked but that just came yeah I wasn't particularly impressed it was deeply unattractive football basically right well leave it there then because I said we were only going to talk about 30 seconds and we've done about a couple of minutes but there you go Cunha and Mbwemo were big they looked good they looked good Cunha in particular I mean when he gets the ball he's an exciting player isn't he yeah there was one where he barreled through like three players and there was one where he's like holding someone off and slipped in Mbwemo and he nearly scored they look like they will fit I disagree with Alisson I think they look like both of those players will fit the system But behind Cesco though?

37:07Yes Yeah There's those two behind Cesco Absolutely What does that mean for Fernandes? He's got to play deeper And can he? He can It would help if he had someone with legs alongside him that's the gaping hole Agate came on and that was that was that was really bad You hate Agate don't you? No I don't I don't but he was bad he was yeah Things to work on but some positives Manchester United and Arsenal fans if you got some points you want to make get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk just make sure you're nice to Hamza we're going to take a little break we're going to come back we've still got loads more to talk about we'll see you in a sec

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40:08Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Hamza Kalikluna, Gregor Robertson and Alison Rudd with me. Alison, you're at Villa Park. We're talking about some boring games before the break. Was this a stinker? Should it have been nil-nil? Could it have been anything else other than nil-nil? Yeah, it could have been minus three, minus three. Minus three, minus three. That bad? Yeah. Bad in terms of what the teams offered or just turgid or did the red card ruin it? Bad. Okay, bad as in lots of ways, actually. So first of all, cracking atmosphere, absolutely superb.

40:39And it lulled me into thinking, Villa, they haven't been allowed to spend any money, but they have been working hard under a fantastic manager pre-season. and they're going to go for it. This is going to be amazing. And it's like they forgot how to play football. They overhit. In the first half, I think they overhit every pass, every attacking pass they tried to make. It was odd. It was like they'd all taken some sort of fizzy drink that had something in it they weren't expecting to have in it, and it affected their brains and their arms and their legs. It was just weird. Rudd analogy. We've done it.

41:16We've completely done it. It was very strange. They were much better in the second half until Consul was sent off. So that was disappointing, just how ungainly and just couldn't get the passes together. And it was like they'd made through balls, assuming they had pace and they had no pace. So that was weird. Anyway, and then you had the sort of narrative that Newcastle, how would they cope? is it a distraction having Alexander Izak on strike? He's being fined this week for missing this match. You can't be under contract and refuse to play. It's a pretty standard thing legally, I think, that a club would then fine you for doing that.

42:00But that's a huge distraction at a club like Newcastle who've made it into the Champions League and their whole summer has been tainted by this and the fact they've been unable to sign their stated targets and it's just been awful. So would this mean that the vibe of the team would be slightly lower than it should have been? Would Eddie Howe be bristling with anger? But actually, he did quite a good thing. He turned the negative into a positive. So they gave everything Newcastle. They were definitely trying. The fans were right behind them. The idea that Isaac could be reintegrated, I think, is ludicrous.

42:42once the fans have started chanting, you're a greedy bastard and worse. That felt like the moment it's over. It's over. I mean, afterwards, Eddie Howe said the door's still open for this to be resolved. Yeah, because he's holding it open. Please, come back. I need you to stay. And it's up to the player. But, you know, whilst they've navigated it reasonably well in terms of morale, this saga, I think if Izak was to start to be integrated back, that might create problems. We might then see it affect the team and the support and so on. So I think he's caught in a difficult position there. How did they look playing-wise?

43:29Bruno, Tonali, Joe Linton, that midfield three, still strong? I would say they played very well. Vigi. Vigie. Vigie. Eight out of ten. it's still 7 out of 10 but I mean he could not help himself at the end Eddie Howe because there was this wry smile when he said basically what we were missing was a striker and that's you know it's like it's like it's like basic Hans Christian Anderson football match this is what you expect to happen your top striker who's been amazing he's really good at it right he's got all those instincts that a natural striker has and he's reliable he's on strike and you get opportunities and the players to whom those opportunities fall don't have those natural instinctive striker abilities to put the ball away so it really really underlines that either you need to reintegrate Isaac or spend a lot of dosh and bring in somebody who can be similar to him Not sure who that would be they've missed out on basically every striker in Europe going this Oh and I do think it's a bit weird psychologically wise to keep saying that if they signed Wissett, he wouldn't be a replacement for Isaac.

44:39It's a bit insulting, actually. He'd be our second-choice striker. That's why we'd want him. I don't care whether he can or not. If you want him, don't diss him before you've even bid for him. They also need two strikers. I've said that for a long time. I agree, but I don't know. Callum Wilson, really, his impact diminished a great deal over last season. and to call Whissa, who was Brentford's top scorer in the Premier League, to call him someone who would replace someone who isn't really that missed, I think is insulting to Whissa. But I don't think he can play as a central striker, can he? He should be much hotter property.

45:18Really, in the same way? I think he's a terrific player, but I don't know whether, I think it's more surely in terms of positional sense, not prestige or confidence. No, but it's coming across as prestige to me. and if I was with so I'd be thinking well I'm better than Callum Wilson Could be a busy and interesting couple of weeks it certainly will be I'm sure for Newcastle United before the transfer window closes Alison I have the pleasure and honour of deciding which matches you lot go to and I realised I made a massive error with the opening weekend I should have sent you to Brighton against Fulham the Alison Rudd derby what on earth was I doing sending you to Aston Villa instead Brighton won Fulham won Rodrigo Munez getting a 97th minute equaliser this weekend really did have it all didn't it Firstly, most importantly, the most important question of the whole podcast, really.

46:05Are we on board with Fulham's away kit? Love it. Bright green, absolutely crackers. New badge. Old badge. New old badge, yeah. The classic retro way. It looks a little bit like something you'd have got in the bargain bin at JJB Sports back in the 90s. Which is why it's amazing. Which is why it's class. Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. Could not agree with you more. I thought Brighton looked quite bright, Alison. I was thinking of your preview shoe when you said Rutter was going to have a good season. You know, I did feel that, I mean, on paper, losing Joe Pedro feels like, oh, you know, Brighton, they're always going out the door, aren't they?

46:37They're good players. I genuinely didn't feel that it would create a vacuum at all. And Ruta, you know, will fill that gap. And he will, I think. I mean, I don't think he was perfect, but I think he'll grow in stature. It feels like his, you know, like some players, you feel like they have. so he initially struggled to adapt to the Premier League and then he had injuries and now it feels like his time there are players who you feel like they go through these little patches of readjustment in their career and maybe get an odd injury and then the stars align there's a gap in the team this is your moment so I hope he takes it I think I need to start seeing games out though it was a big team last season and if they want to aim any higher they need to they need to cut this out yeah definitely let's talk about the big one of the big games on Saturday, Hamza.

47:25We're going to talk about Wolves against Manchester City very soon. But before that, Thomas Frank's home Premier League debut against Burnley, sorry, 3-0 win for his Tottenham side. Craig, I'm still quite upset about Ange Postacogu, I'll be honest. But if Thomas Frank can make Richarlison look good, all is forgiven. Because I don't know whether you remember, do you remember many, many seasons ago, me, you, was it us three and Hugh Wusenkraft, our former presenter? and we argued about which striker would be the best impact that season. I think it was like Gabriel Jesus, Erling Haaland, something, something.

48:01And Richarlison was the fourth one. And being the great sport that I am, I said, I'll make the argument for Richarlison. And my mate still messages me every single time Richarlison does anything, mostly bad, on a football pitch. So, Thomas Frank, if you can make Richarlison good and shut my mate up, I'll be absolutely delighted. But Gregor, a good win for Thomas Frank. Yeah, excellent win, yeah. And look, it will be no mean feat and it will be a huge boost as well because Dominic Solanke, I'd say he was broadly speaking successful last season, but they need competition. They need more options up front, particularly when they're in the Champions League.

48:42And Diwali was a great finish. Great finish, smart kind of just to hold back and then just to manipulate his body and get the shot off. Great finish. so yeah I mean between this and the Super Cup game I think there's been a lot to be positive about for Kudus as well looks like on maybe the signing of the season already again big hot take from the first weekend and I know 55 million or whatever it was was a lot of money but just instead of like at West Ham he felt like he always got the ball kind of on the halfway line or even just inside his own half and it's like go on go on mate and he just runs at them and he charges you know he looks a bit like a headless chicken actually and there's no one really around them.

49:21He's getting the ball higher up the pitch now and he looks like he can be much more impactful. So, yeah, he's definitely been positive. And that doesn't bode well for Graham Potter either, does it? I felt he was dissing him a bit in his post-match interview, kudos, saying, you know, now I can enjoy myself. Like, where I was, they weren't making the most of me. But now, under super Thomas Frank. Someone else wooed by Thomas Frank, who saw that coming? Just like, you know, there's just obviously, it's not a surprise, but there's just early signs that Spurs are more sensible. sensible Spurs boo boo oh they are not boring but more sensible they still have things like Spence who's basically playing like a winger a lot of the time you know you look at their shape their system and it's not straightforward it's not like you know it's not set in stone they often shape shifts through the game and a lot of that involves the full backs play so high up when they're pressing or one goes up and one tucks in and then like the youth of the midfield Sargre and Bergvall in that game like that's do you see that being do we see that being the like midfield three I can't believe Paulina won't come in Jao Paulina won't come in I'm a huge Paulina fan so I'm sure I'm sure he'll be used a lot Burnley Gregor obviously a difficult game they don't quite conform to the trend of the first half of the show where we said the promoted teams are all going to survive but a 3-0 win we shouldn't take too much from it we'll learn a lot more next Saturday when they host Sunderland yeah yeah I mean like the the whole thing about Burnley is that they were they came up on on the back of such a strong defence that's still the thing that they're going to have to they're going to have to hope for if they're going to survive this season I thought it was a great great piece with Gary Jacob with Scott Parker in the times of the weekend really like interesting like revealing interview with Scott Parker and it's going to be an interesting story about Scott Parker as well after you know him and Fark three promotions not being able to lay I think lay a glove on the Premier League at all not being given the chance to lay a glove on the Premier League well that's part of it being sacked quite early often yeah well that was the case in Bournemouth yeah but I hope he does better this time and I hope that's the case for Fark as well because I think it's often diminished or dismissed a little bit managing a team with parachute payments it's easy it's not easy to do what they do the sort of overhaul and the turnover at a club after relegation from the Premier League and sort of creating a cohesive team bit of unity after losing every week every single week and enduring a miserable season is no mean feat and he's done it several times remains to be seen whether it's just going to be another sort of up and down in the cycle for Burnley Yeah you mentioned Leeds and Daniel Farker there they host Everton tonight Martin Hardy is there you can read his report on the Times website later.

52:19Right, I made you wait long enough, Hamza. Wolves nil, Manchester City four. Should that have been the result? Could it have been anything different? Could have been three nil. City scored all their shots. Four nil's a bit toppy. Yeah, City scored all their shots on target, but given they've got Erling Haaland, who does that, right? So maybe could have saved his shot, the third goal. But City were the dominant team. That's not to say Wolves played badly. I think what they did in the first 20 or so, 25 minutes, they tried to limit City quite well. They defended good space. They used long balls in behind into the channels and attacked from those spaces.

52:57They got caught out with offsides. But if you're getting caught out with offsides, that's usually either a mark of that team not executing their attacks properly or the other team catching them out with a good offside trap. There's also like, yeah, maybe you got a bit lucky, but the offside goal that Wolves scored was well offside. So I'd discount that. So just quickly before we come back to City then, would you put Wolves in that category of Brentford and West Ham, who are teams that are giving the promoted teams hope? To be completely frank, I wouldn't be too hopeful if I was one of the promoted teams.

53:26They've obviously lost Cunha, but their midfield double pivot is still pretty good, right? They've still got Andre and Gomez. They could do with a bit of top-end speed, I think. But I think fundamentally with that midfield pivot, you're probably going to be better off than the promoted teams just because of that. So let's talk about Manchester City. Title contenders, surely, after this performance. You shouldn't get carried away, but I will. They were sick. Yeah, there we go. They were very good. I knew there was something he was going to get carried away about. I was so excited to watch City.

54:02Often at the start of the season, you have questions, but there's very rarely been a team that I've had so many questions about. Not bad questions, it's just how does this team, arguably the best side of the Premier League era over a period, how do they react to one of their worst ever seasons? How does the manager, who looked jaded and tired, react to that? The first time ever, it was a tropic season, not the first time he's ever had a tropic season, but the first time he's ever looked like that and had a tropic season. How do they cope with losing Kevin De Bruyne, bringing in these new players, Reinders, Shirky, you've still got Marmouche, Nico Gonzalez.

54:41Will they still have the same structural problems without Rodri, who's going to return after the international break? How will City play now that Pep has got rid of Juan Molillo and brought in Pep Linders, who's known for his out-of-possession ideas? It's super intense, counter-pressing and pressing ideas. And we saw some of them, they press quite well, they were quite aggressive. They use that intensity as a good effect. Like I said, you shouldn't read too much into it, but you also have got to remember City's floor is always going to be around third because they've got a guy that's going to score 25 goals irrespective of whether he plays well or poorly or the team plays well or poorly.

55:20He will just score that amount of goals. So then you go, okay, well, they're in that conversation. So I think they'll be at least at that sort of 84 point. Did it look like a different, you touched on it a little bit there and mentioned Pep Linders and stuff, but I was fascinated looking at this team when it was selected. I was like, oh, Oscar Bob and Doku either side of Haaland. That's a bit different when you think of Foden, as you say, not being in the team. Grealish sent out on loan. You've got a bit more of a maybe conventional 4-3-3 type system with three midfielders and then pacey guys at either side of a striker who, as you say, is going to score 25 goals.

55:53Did it look as simplistic as that? Yeah, well, one of the things that Pep mentioned, both in pre-season and after the match, is, yeah, we're going to try and use pace more. We're going to be a bit more direct. I think he he's shown that he can evolve and he does evolve and he's incorporated different ideas into and that's what keeps him at the top level when he went to Germany for example and he was presented with counter-pressing football it took a very short amount of time but he quickly went okay we're going to incorporate those ideas and we're going to adapt my idea of play and incorporate them we're not going to change too much but we're going to bring those in and I think his experience in the league last season and more generally in the Premier League is that you need physicality you need pace you need directness and the ability to mix it at times of course he's always shown some of that take the win against Arsenal when he went direct with De Bruyne and Haaland in their 4-4-2 so he's always done bits of it but I think there's going to be a more concerted effort to focus on honing those skills and Reinders offers those turns that he has are such a valuable asset because if a team is in a low block and you're able to dribble past a player suddenly it's a domino sort of effect.

56:56You dribble past one player the opposition players that are man-marking your teammates, then go, oh my god, this guy's got the ball, he's in the middle, I have to close him down. They move towards you, if he runs past you again, he's going straight into the box. If you move towards him, you free up your man, they pass to them, they get the combination, they get inside. Hugely, hugely impressive start for Rounders. As I'm just saying, just being able to carry the ball through midfield, that is something he's clearly trying to add to the team. They look so refreshed and the new signings have blended in so well.

57:25I think they're definitely contenders. Maybe they'll get ripped apart on the counter next week. Maybe, right? If they do, there's a good chance they'll come back at you and they'll score four. Excellent. Exciting. Man City is going to be 4-4 every game of the season, talking about them being title contenders. They'll have to wrestle the Premier League title back from the current champions. Liverpool starting the season with a 4-2 win on Friday night against Bournemouth. An absolute cracker. Anfield delivering yet again. I'm going to say I'm disappointed that Mo Salah scored. not just because I didn't put him in my fantasy team but just because narrative wise 3-2 Chiesa would have been much nicer like just like 4-2 Salah scores a fourth like no jog on mate come on let the other lad have the like limelight it would have been much nicer do you know what was bonkers about that goal which one?

58:11the fourth one Liverpool are winning 3-2 in the 94th 94th yeah and as Salah gets this ball he's currently 4-1 against the Bournemouth defenders by the time he takes the shot Liverpool outnumber Bournemouth in the box 5-4 including the D who does this in the 90 it's kind of bonkers and I think in some ways it speaks to Arna Slott's style because he likes to overload defenders in the box and he's hyper-attacking but it also speaks to the emotionality of the match and the emotionality of the occasion that I think Liverpool and to be fair this does affect Wolves and Manchester City as well because they held quite a big tribute to Diogo Jota.

58:56And at the end of the match, you saw Ruben Diaz and Bernardo Silva joining in in this lengthy applause where they're singing the song from well, well, well beyond full time. You can see that they're quite upset. But I think this emotionality also does play into it because it felt like at the moment in this game, Liverpool were just swept away by the emotion. They were just, let's keep attacking, let's keep attacking. Let's try everything we can. Let's be as effervescent and energetic as we can. and they lost the control that made them so effective last season. And you see that in that final opportunity.

59:27Mind you, Arna Slott also, I think he was interviewed by Jamie Carrigan, Gary Neville after the match. And Jamie said something like, are you not concerned by the amount of players that you've got forward? He's like, no, actually, this is the way that we want to play. We just need to do what we did better. Robertson should be slightly a bit more central for the second goal so he can counter-press the situation better. and Dominic Soboslai probably shouldn't try the trick when there's no one behind him. Mind you, for Bournemouth's second goal, you had, again, everyone in the box. You had Endo, who was the nominal number six at this point, in the box.

1:00:02You had Curtis Jones, who'd run ahead of him, in the box. You had Soboslai on the edge of the box and he's missed the ball because the cutback is behind him. And usually on TV, you see that situation and you go, OK, yeah, Van Dijk, Canate, number six. You go, there's no number six, there's no fullback there either. And suddenly it's a Bournemouth four on two. Any concerns Gregor about that defensive situation conceding those two goals? Slott was really interesting actually in that interview and he pointed out again Graven Burch as someone who was outstanding for them and really important for them last season and getting McAllister back up to speed a bit as well will kind of help to solve that but I think actually we might slightly be easy to overlook as well how much there'll be a change having changed both fullbacks and these guys are really they're young and they're forward facing if that's for want of a better word that's what that's what they are built for they're attacking you know buccaneering fullbacks and then there's the intangibles that you don't have that are missing when you don't have Andy Robertson in the team like in the biggest games probably his organisation his leadership and just the fact that these guys have played together for so long like that will have an effect so I think when you have that and the sort of slight reconfiguration of midfield in the way that they've got a number 10 as opposed to slightly different formed midfield and you know Sabozlai played that role but he also is a box to box midfielder really so I think those two things together are a concern Why don't they sign Wisser?

1:01:35I don't see that SESAC is better No no no Fade out Neil Fade out Neil Fade out Neil He wants the move I mean the class is going to get good money for him I don't know I don't know do you want a player who behaves like that? I don't think he did. He's on strike. That's his move. That is the hot take we've been waiting for. Bournemouth are good as well. Liverpool fan does not want Alexander Ezer. Bournemouth are good as well. Bournemouth are very good. Very good as well. Very good. Good little PS from you there. No, it's not a PS because Antonio Reola has lost his two starting centre-backs and they defended...

1:02:04And his left-back. Yeah, and his left-back. And he's lost four of the back five. Semenyo was excellent with his two goals and of course what he had to deal with as well. Oh, Alex Scott was brilliant. That's when they actually lost the match. that's when Bournemouth actually lost the match I think when Alex Scott came off they lost control of midfield and I thought he was fantastic if he can stay fit he I think could be regarded as well as Semenu is because people see Semenu and go that's a player that can play Champions League football is already of that level I think Scott if he can stay fit will be there as well so yeah fantastic game good sign to Bournemouth just finally we've scotting over it but it's also hugely moving the Jota stuff beforehand like the you know tribute and like the weight of his absence it's like pretty profound when you just see the team and he's you know it would have been a really emotional night for them I think for Liverpool and it's going to be something that's you know through the season because it's a real unknown for the rest of the season as well so absolutely hugely emotional night at Anfield but loads of excitement too as we saw across the weekend we'll leave it there Alison Rudd Hamza Kalik Luna and Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening.

1:03:15Me and Gregor will be back with an EFL show this week, and then we'll be back with the regular show on Thursday. See you then.

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