Foden, Bellingham or Palmer? Who can gatecrash the top four? And Sir Jim Ratcliffe

0:28Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast. United for his full three-year contract. There will probably be plenty more to discuss as well whether Thomas Tuchel can keep up the momentum in England's next two games as well. I'm Tom Clark and joining me today we have the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the Football Correspondent for the Sunday Times, Johnny Northcroft and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson. It's here as usual joining us from a screen in Loughborough. Hello Gregor, little Gregor on a screen. Hello Gregor. Hello. Hello. You're on your referees course part two finding out about the future of refereeing that we'll be able to read on the times website very soon well the future potentially of former footballers becoming referees yes and you've still not been persuaded to sign up yourself no no i might have a go i might have a go it's quite a commitment the guys are making quite a commitment there it's a three year course they've got to like referee two or three games a week and meet up at regional hubs to keep fit and So you can't be arsed is what you're saying Basically yeah and I've got a 10 month I'll be Fair enough well we're delighted to still have you on the podcast and I wanted to come to you first because we did mention on Monday's show Gregor we just teased a very interesting topic I thought about this season's Premier League and the brilliance of teams like Bournemouth in the Champions League and you've got Crystal Palace in six who've just seen a 19 game unbeaten run come to an end so we did give this question to our colleagues Tom Olnutt and Pete Rutzler and they kind of sat on the fence as to whether this could be a topsy-turvy season of a bit of unpredictability.

2:02And then boring old Tom Allnut came in and said, oh, well, the established order will be back soon. And I stopped you giving your answer, Gregor. So why don't we pick it up where we left off on Monday? You give us your view on what the season's shaping up like. This might sound a bit giddy, and I might be getting ahead of myself, but I just wonder whether there's a bit of a levelling up occurring. Tom said that the established order might reassert itself and that might well be true in fact it probably will be true but I just don't think they'll be the same gulf as we're used to seeing or have been used to seeing for a long long time basically and I think there's probably quite a lot of reasons for that I mean there's part of it is the quality of coaching particularly at the clubs you mentioned Palace and Bournemouth part of it's about the financial might of the Premier League having so many conversations in recent months with people at football clubs just astonished by how much richer they are than everyone else.

3:05And sometimes that kind of manifests itself. And I spoke to one executive who was just sort of dumbfounded by the prices being quoted for players in the summer by clubs maybe in France or Germany or whatnot. And they have to pay it because they can. so like Premier League is hoovering up the best players in the rest of Europe you know some of the smaller Premier League clubs and that I think sort of over a period of time will the concentration of the best players in Europe in the Premier League will naturally make a bit of a levelling up occur I think maybe there's something to do with the stylistic shift we've seen this season as well like a lot of teams are maybe sort of realising that there's a way of playing effective football that can combat teams that have tried to kind of play Pep Guardiola style football the things I've spoken about, long throw-ins more set plays that I think can have an effect as well and then ultimately there's flaws in all of the big six teams there are flaws in Liverpool huge flaws still at Manchester United there's still flaws everywhere you look Arsenal are the one team you would say don't really have a glaring flaw they just it's just whether they're going to be adventurous enough and perhaps in the big games against fellow big six teams in particular so I think there's a lot going on maybe Tom's right maybe the table will look familiar at the end of the season I just think maybe the points halls won't and over the course of the season and that'll make for some more even football perhaps.

4:55Yeah. Also, we said in the Premier League roundtable earlier, I don't think there's a bad team in the league this year. And that might sound daft when Wolves are sitting bottom with two points. I think they'll improve. I think West Ham will under Nuno. And the promoter trio, in contrast to the last couple of seasons, all look pretty good, even Burnley, because they've had a difficult start. They look really competitive. So I don't think there's a really bad team in the league. I'll tell you what's different this season as well, chaps. Gregor Robertson with the hot takes. He's used to sitting on the fence, never gives an opinion, never gives a prediction.

5:28Both things can be true. The Robertson hot take is here. There's no bad team in the league. Is it nonsense though? No, I think. What do we think? I mean, there's some interesting ways of phrasing it there that Gregor's used, you know, levelling up, no bad team in the league. What do we think, Johnny? What do you think? Yeah, I think all of that. I'm now feeling under pressure to give you a hot take right now. No, no, no, you don't have to. That's the perfect, he's taken on the new role. it's fine I'll try and give you some warm ones we can all sit on the fence it's alright right well no look a lot of sense there from Gregor and it depends what we mean about it being you know like last season I think we're saying last season was amazing because we had the kind of middle teams if you want to call them that challenging the big ones in the end the top four were big teams and I think the best we had was sort of forest just outside it but it was a great season because those teams could beat anyone and often and of course you had Palace winning the Cups and Newcastle winning the Cups and you know as Martin always says a great good line from him things we've not seen before yeah so I think I think we can see that again we all sat here in the summer saying oh look at the transfers all the all the good players being plucked from those teams this is the and you know I think I said it these are the big ones asserting their power again well we've seen that happen and they haven't gone away we've seen them regenerate Bournemouth being a great example of it.

6:52Lost three of their back four and they've signed all these players. Truffaut looks all of a sudden better than Kirkes. I think what's dawning on us is that what we've admired Brighton for over the years and seen Brighton as an outlier, we've seen Brighton as that team that they're so clever that they can defy gravity, they can defy losing the manager, they can defy losing the best players because their recruitment is bang, bang, bang. We're seeing other teams joining that now. We're seeing Bournemouth being able to do that. Brentford's interesting to me because they're the ones that have removed or had their coach removed a brilliant coach and they've appointed from within and you questioned it and now having seen Bournemouth a couple of times in the last three or four weeks Brentford Brentford yeah Brentford you think my god the DNA's still there the identity's still very much there they're not going away so maybe this is the future maybe maybe we're now seeing teams that are so clever not just Brighton but three or four of them I take the point that if Glasner left Palace if Iriola left Bournemouth they would have huge issues because those are literally two of the best coaches in the world but look at what's happened at Brentford and look at how clever those clubs are with their recruitment I wouldn't be banking on them just falling away I'd actually say it's more likely that they would come again Listeners, Martin Samuel, a man of great experience within the game, has got a smirk on his face No, I haven't got a smile for my face.

8:21It's only that we have trod this path before. Yes. Jose Mourinho, I think in his second spell at Chelsea, said that, so what are we talking there, 2014? 14-15. Yeah, 14-15. So that's 10 years ago. So he said then that if you looked at Crystal Palace, I'm trying to think who he was talking about. was it Kabai? Yeah, your own Kabai. And he said that, you know, if he didn't have, and he listed two or three players in his Chelsea squad, he said, I would buy Kabai. He said, without a doubt, he's good enough to play for Chelsea. He said, but we haven't got the room for him. And he said he goes to Crystal Palace, whereas before he wouldn't, he would have gone abroad, he would have done something.

9:12And so we've been down this path, because he was saying back then that the mid-ranking clubs had got enough money to buy players that you would normally gravitate towards the elite. Yeah. So, which is where we are now. Yeah. Which is where we are now. Mid-ranking clubs, buy players, that would be picked up by a smart elite club. So I still think, I said before the season started that I thought the top six would be the big six. As depressing as I found it. I still think that probably will happen I think Manchester United will muscle their way in there You do, right? Yeah, I do think Manchester United will muscle their way in there and Chelsea are the ones that are outside but do I want Bournemouth and Crystal Palace to say the distance?

10:00Absolutely I do and I think there's other ways that they can be successful even if they're not in the top six I mean, Gleisner could win Palace's first European trophy in their first European season that doesn't get done very often I think there's an interesting point that I want to come back to from Gregor saying about there's no bad teams in the league because I think that's slightly where when I was thinking about Monday's show it was the Everton's match with Crystal Palace that I was particularly looking at with Palace in the lead and Everton coming back you've got this Palace team that had beaten Liverpool very close games very fine margins 2-1 games but you know you've then got Manchester United who've beaten Sunderland at home but Sunderland who've been brilliant in other games and have beaten their teams at home I wonder whether it's maybe more Gregor's point that that there isn't really a bad team.

10:45So far, there doesn't look like a team that's just going to plummet and fall away. Never mind three teams, which is what we had last two seasons. What about that as an idea? I mean, I think a couple of things. I think the Premier League's becoming almost a specialised project where you need specialised players, a certain level of athleticism, for example, that you don't need in other leagues. And the promoted clubs have caught on to that. They're clubs with experience. Burnley and Leeds in particular of going up and coming back down so they've recruited and modelled their teams really well to play this athletic game and compete, the margins of games now in which they're won and lost are getting smaller because it's so fast, it's so athletic as at the Chelsea Liverpool game on Saturday I mean the first 20 minutes were bewildering to try and first 20 minutes of a match report, that's your time that you can watch the game look at what are the patterns who's doing what I couldn't see anything all I could see was men running about really fast and what I'm trying to say is like the games now are such a high paced athletic contest that they can be decided by these set pieces by these really small margins so that's another thing that's enabling everyone to compete but it is it is it's smartness isn't it you've got you've got some dumb sorry Martin but the West Hams you've got some kind of dumber biggish teams no indeed not yet one day maybe but the West Ham's of the world are a joy to the I don't know the Sunderlands of the world because they let them compete they let them compete but no it's teams working out more and more what you need to do in the Premier League recruiting the right players and then the margins just getting smaller Gregor you were nodding along there with some of what Johnny was saying about the physicality as well.

12:41I wonder as well about picking up about these promoted sides, you know, because you've got Leeds currently in 15th, Burnley in 18th and Sunderland in 9th. But feel free to pick up on Johnny's point about the physicality as well. Yeah, and the speed. I've watched Brighton at Chelsea and the first half was just bewildering. I said this the other week, he just sat back and went, oh, this is so good. This is extraordinary, the standard, the level. and yeah I think there's also something about the fact that 17 of the teams have been in the league for three or more seasons and like that sort of merry-go-round of the up and downs for a while gave a lot of teams continuity and they've built and improved year on year and there's obviously been exceptions to that and Johnny's right West Ham are one ever and where for a long time and David Moyes has sort of turned that around so there's always sort of you know there's football strands and there's lots of there's teams who do stupid things sometimes but there are fewer of them and this is a moment when you look at the league and there's you know West Ham are probably an exception Wolves have been like financially kind of straightened by profit and sustainability regulations that's another point maybe is worth raising like is that level in the playing field at all there was a period where you know everyone seems to be sort of like having to box very clever in terms of how much they can spend the big established elite can't just go out and spend anything they want to race away.

14:15I don't know what it seems like in the summer, in particular Manchester United. It didn't look like that in the summer where everyone lost their players to the big established elite and the big established elite raced away. That's exactly what the summer was. Yeah, but they're also supplying the... Apart from anyone who did challenge them, and they get relegated and pursued into the championship. They're also giving the teams that they're buying players from a lot of money to reinvest in the clubs. Gregor, if we're talking about trickle-down economics, mate, that has been my point about Premier League spending for 10 years when people say about how negative it is, it's trickle-down economics.

14:53Now, whether you believe in trickle-down economics is another matter, but that's always been the case with the Premier League, trickle-down economics, whether it's into foreign leagues, whether it's into the championship. That's part of the worrying thing about it is that it got directed abroad most of it and it stopped going into our lower divisions, which is when it gets recycled through our football. But the idea of trickle-down economics has always been part of the Premier League model that these clubs spend money and you get money further down the line and then you spend money further down the line.

15:31The point is as well, and I think this has been more clearer in transfer windows gone by not the most recent summer is that clubs don't have to sell No like they don't so there's a reason why Wissa and Isak were going on strike because the clubs didn't have to sell them it's like I think just the financial strength the Premier League is twice as rich as any other team any other league in Europe there's not there's not a necessity for teams to sell their best players. I know there's somewhere that that's happened, but then they go out and scour the rest of Europe and buy the best players in Europe to replace them.

16:10I totally agree, but there's this book, it's called The Little Book of Chaos. There was a book that came out a little while ago, one of those little toilet books, and it's called The Little Book of Calm. And someone brought something out, The Little Book of Chaos, and that's just sort of part of how I see it. and one of the pages said it's a beautiful day, the sky is blue, birds are singing in the trees. Why not f*** it all up with a bonfire? Does that appeal to you? And that's how I see the independent regulator and the Premier League, basically. It's all going well. The things are beginning to work.

16:49I was like, how is he going to get the independent regulator? Everyone's got money. Everyone's doing all right. And there you go. You're that kid that can't have their initials at their desk, aren't you? Definitely. Totally, yeah. Other people's desks. Other people's desks. Carve their initials into their desk. For me, it's like, I think one of the things is that money doesn't carry the way it used to. So Liverpool are a great example. You can buy the most expensive striker in Premier League history. You can spend£120 million on one of Europe's best players. But if you haven't got the balance of your team right, if the margins aren't right, you're going to get found out by everyone.

17:30Crystal Palace will absolutely kill you. That's kind of what I was saying. They'll kill you. Every game, even when you're doing stupid things like, if you fancy a bet on the Premier League or if you're into fantasy football or whatever, there's no game where you're looking at it and going, well, that's a banker. This is a solid banker here. I know that because I'm very much bottom of the predictor league. I'm in with my mates. So am I. Absolutely. I'm on top of my fantasy football league. Oh, yeah. Snack that in. Very good. Snack that in, yeah. You've never mentioned it before for this week. Might never mention it again.

18:03Could just be one week. But, Johnny, coming back to some of the teams, and Everton's a great example, right? And that was where I was looking at, as I said, this was the start of the Everton beating Palace. A great stat. I'll make David Moyes' first game back in charge of Everton. In January, only six teams since then have won more points in the Premier League than Everton, 42. I mean, when we're looking at Everton, that team, and Gregor talked about them earlier, being a bit of the kind of old car crash. they're in the new stadium now they've got Jack Grealish who's smiling and loving football and we're all loving Jack Grealish they've signed Tyler Dibbling Illamundi they've got a clever manager I mean you said there's no bad teams I mean there's probably no bad coaches at the moment is there?

18:42I can't on Wolves very quickly because they are bottom of the table only two points Greg has touched on them already but we're saying no bad coach Pereira still happy Brazilian midfielders we don't think there's any reasons to worry about Wolves, for example? No, there's reasons to worry about Wolves because they're bottom of the table and we're now in October. So there's a reason to worry because, you know, we can have 20... I don't disagree with what Gregor said. We can have 20 good teams in the Premier League. Someone still ought to come 18th, 19th, 20th. Well, exactly. So, you know, that means you can be good and go down.

19:19Or good by comparison and go down. So, yeah, there's reasons to worry about Wolves and one of them is have they, you know, have they that tipping point that you get in terms of your player sales where, you know, you sell one too many and one too many of your new guys don't quite work and then you get a run of it. You know, the conditions that create a relegated club, basically where you sell and you sell and it's still OK and you sell again and then you sell like the third or the fourth time and it's just gone too far. And you can't possibly, every single recruit can't just hit the ground running and then you get three injuries at centre-half and then suddenly you can't win a match and then the confidence dies.

20:09And Wolves look a little bit like that at the moment. The scenes at the end of their game at the weekend, you looked at that and thought, right, this is not just a blip. They're in trouble. They're in a bit of trouble. you wouldn't bear against them getting out of it but I think you'd be mad to pretend that it's not an issue But they could go down as quite a good team couldn't they? I think that's the point we will see good teams getting relegated this year somebody will miss somebody will go down on goal difference and it'll be a team that will blitz the championship the next year they'll be a decent side Greg I mentioned the style thing I do think that is part of it if you think of the way the league was in the 90s let's say where teams won titles with 80 points.

21:01Man United won 78 points in 1999 and the points totals were much more compacted and it's partly because there was a much more direct style of football in those days. Football which had chaos in it where games are getting won on the margins where nothing is guaranteed and the era that we've come through the kind of if you want to call it the Guardiola era the possession era that sort of positional possession football that's designed to maximise the talents of the power of the best teams because if you've got the best players and you hold the ball for 90 minutes you're going to win most games but now we've had this reintroduction of chaos long throws and stuff then having all those good players and having it's not possible to have the control anymore it doesn't guarantee you what it used to it's allowing teams I think to challenge the order as well from a style point of view yeah I think style and that leads us on to talk about some teams I just wanted to wrap this up I'm going to mention who our favourite kind of players and signings are so far this season just to finish this section but before we get there as I keep referring to Everton, Palace, Bournemouth Martin you've said that you think the kind of big six will kind of muscle in Manchester United will show their might in the end which of those teams you know is it Bournemouth who is going to be the Nottingham who could be the Nottingham Forest of this season do you think is there anyone or will it be more a case of we'll see teams have a little run and we'll be talking about them on this show you'd say Palace Palace could because the run they've had coming into this even though they had Ezi in that team for a lot of the time but Palace's run is genuine I mean you look at the teams that they've played in that run they played Liverpool three times they don't lose a game you know they play Chelsea they play good teams so Palace I would say Johnny Bournemouth do you think the Bournemouth thing is momentum early season momentum can they keep it going?

23:01I think they could be top 10 I agree with Palace I think they're the most convincing of them but I'm going to put my old David Moyes hat on if you weren't I was going to look at Moyes' history you just know that when you took over Everton you thought somehow they're going to be challenging for European football. Don't quite know how, looking at that team, but you know his history. He did it three years out of four with West Ham. He'll do it with Everton. He might not get there, but they will be on the edges, I reckon, this season. And I keep banging on about Jack Grealish, but it is Jack Grealish at Everton.

23:35Elliman and Dye is good as well. He is, he is. We've been saying that for a while. Gregor, just finishing for you, the teams that you think could do a Forest this season? It looks like Palace. It really does. I mean, just so smartly. coached and although everyone it's like that kind of classic thing where everyone knows how they play but it's still impossible to combat and when they get those little get those their tens in those little pockets of space and everyone's just bombing forward like Mighty Duck style it's pretty hard to stop so they look like they signed most likely this season yeah and then so to wrap up this section favourite signings players that you've seen out and about you talked about going to games new players that you've seen coming in from other leagues obviously we keep talking about Jack Grealish but we all know Jack Grealish and we knew him before Zubarbendi's blown me away I mean that's one of the best players in the world sitting right there he can do everything he is more than the player I thought he was Estevão is incredibly exciting and maybe Michael Coyote has had the biggest impact in the league in some ways you know what a sight he is yeah I mean I absolutely love Robin Roof at Sunderland I think he looks like a real player Mosquera at Arsenal as well has got to be one of the signings of the summer by value Martin, any players that you've spotted?

24:50Well, not Esteval, certainly. I thought that looking at him in the Club World Cup, then when he came over, he was one of those guys that you think, I do hope they start him. I do hope they're not, you know, this is not some project where they've got him... I've not seen him, but you think he could be like real deal, not like, you know, Chelsea have had so many wide forwards. He's been very unlucky because they keep getting players sent off and then, you know, you go, all right, get the Will of the West sort of Brazilian kid off. Yeah. And, you know, then you saw him do that last week. He's a teenager still.

25:26But he looks a lovely player to me. Yeah. You know. Excellent. Gregor, any from you? Any shouts from you? You mentioned Trufer. I really like the 23. Robertson picks left back shocker. Who saw that coin? I think he cost like less than 15 million. as you say he sold Kerkers for 40 odds same time I think he played in the French team for like the Olympic squad so he's obviously on the radar that looks like a great piece of business Tajani Reinders as well has been just like felt like the perfect fit for not only the sort of new Manchester City but just the Premier League as well he's so dynamic great ball carrier creative as well like around the box and a goal threat so he's been really impressive so far the big fellow at Newcastle Walter Marder we mentioned him on Monday and Martin Hardy's written a brilliant piece about him about his love of fashion I don't know if you've read it he's talking about kitting up his house in Newcastle one of his mates has moved over to live with him to keep him company he just sounds like a top bloke I honestly think he's a real dude he also just doesn't look like a modern footballer either no he's like Peter Crouch plus Dimitar Berbatov oh I love it in one mix with the moustache of and you love how much he's ticking off Bayern Munich as well even though they've got Harry Kane they're still like chipping away at Nuggets they've paid so much money in the meantime the guys are scoring goals for fun and you're thinking oh this is great it's really annoying them now and it is a love I mentioned this on Monday but it is a good narrative for Newcastle fans so much and quite rightly so we criticise their business in the summer not getting the players through the door not getting players signed and they get a guy that no one's ever heard of and he's scoring goals and Isak has gone to Liverpool and they've gone completely down the tubes ever since he's joined I mean it's like almost Isak walks through the door and it goes crash like this so if you're a Newcastle fan at the moment you're in hog heaven basically Yeah you must be enjoying yourself well listeners if you've got any players you want to mention or think that we've missed any out or if you want to have your say on any of the things we've just discussed in the first half of the show do get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk we're going to take a little break Gregor you're going to stick around for the quiz question or are you going to run off to put on your referees kit?

27:46I'll stick around. I need my place in the league table. You do need your place in the league table. Anyway, this quiz question comes, gentlemen, from the Opta quiz, which I took part in last night with the Times team. Bill, Edgar, myself, Hamza and Young Willis from the desk. We finished sixth out of 20. OK. Solid. Mediocre. Solid. Mediocre. Spurs. A mediocre performance. Europa League. You come on. We've got the Europa League for next season. I think that's pretty solid. How many did you answer, Tom? I got about three, I reckon. Hamza got about three. Willis got one. Bill Edgar got literally everything else and we would have been in big, big trouble.

28:24I should also say, for fairness, last season we finished third and I wasn't there. So maybe I am the problem. But this question comes from last night's quiz, which was a lot of fun. Who is the only player to score a hat-trick in the Premier League whilst wearing the number 30 shirt for his club? Find out after the break.

28:52Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Johnny Northcroft and Martin Samuel with me. Gregor Robertson fuming that he could not get the answer to the quiz question as stropped off to go and do his referees course. But thankfully, Martin Samuel was here with the answer, which was? Mikel Antonio. Mikel Antonio. West Ham against Norwich. 6-0 he scored 4 4-0 he scored 4-4 4-0 2010 I think it was a COVID yeah they were already relegated weren't they I think they were yeah end of the season anyway that's when we tend to come into our own absolutely as I say had a great fun at the Optiquist once you're down we're there to bayonet the wounded has Phil Crook scored 4 goals has Falkwood could not score you never know mate did you know you saw the statistics at the weekend you saw the statistics at the weekend he touched the ball 18 times in the entire game he touched the ball fewer times than Odegaard who got taken off after 30 minutes Odegaard plays midfield though and he's up front you've got to get him the ball yeah I know you've got to get him the ball mate he's touched the ball on average in his last 11 games in the opponent's penalty area less than four times a game.

30:13Wow. That's when we'll know, listeners, if this really is a topsy-turvy season of Unprestability. If Nicholas Fulkrug can get four goals in a game at some point, then we know we're on to a winner. Now, we mentioned Manchester United a little bit in the first half of the show, and that's where we turn now, because the Times and Sunday Times have launched a new podcast called The Business, and in the first episode, they have interviewed Sir Jim Ratcliffe. He talks, of course, about Manchester United and Ruben Amerim. Giving the Manchester United manager the full length of his three-year contract to prove himself, he also launched a scathing attack on the club's fabled academy, defended the Glazer family and stated that United would become the most profitable club in the world.

30:53Here's a little bit of what else he had to say in an edited clip from the episode of The Business. We've made quite a decent amount of good progress. So the first thing to say about a football team is there are two halves to a football team. There's the business side and there's the sports side. And, you know, you have to tackle them separately. The biggest correlation, whether we like it or not, but it's the fact of results in football with an external factor, is profitability. The more cash you've got, the better squad you can build. And at the end of the day, you know, it's like the better your Formula One car, the quicker you go, the better your squad, the better your football should be in principle.

31:44So what we have done in the first year is spent an awful lot of time trying to put the club on a sustainable, healthy footing. and that's... If you look at our results for this last year now, highest revenues ever, and the profitability of the EBITDA, second highest ever, and we're not seeing all the benefits of the restructuring that we've done in this year's results. And we reached, and that remember, second highest EBITDA, highest revenue without being in the Champions League. We were not in the Champions League last year. We did get to the final of the Europa Cup final, obviously, and that was quite remunerative.

32:24but those numbers will get better in the future because the results of the restructuring will come through so Manchester United will become the most profitable football club in the world in my view and from that will stem I hope a long term sustainable high level of football I mean you understand the fans but I sometimes don't understand the press they want overnight success they think it's the light switch You flick a switch and it's all going to be roses tomorrow. And that's not the case in football. It would be that easy. You can't run a club like Manchester United on knee-jerk reactions to some journalist who goes off on one every week.

33:10So, Jim Radcliffe there speaking to The Business, the new podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. So, Johnny Northcroft and Martin Samuel. Jim Radcliffe, what do we think about what he's had to say about Reuben Arrim and Manchester United? Very outspoken as always I think that if you're going to go forward you couldn't continue down this path where every single time Manchester United lose a game there is then a seven day inquest on whether the manager gets a bullet or not Amorin looks just fed up beyond all possible belief on the touchline so Byrackliffe saying he's got three years you've got to remember he's already done a year and the three years doesn't mean until November you know it's just under three years really he's got this season what it sounds like this season and next season and if it's not turning around by then they'll have to look somewhere else and that seems reasonable to me that seems if you're going to back a guy it stops the players Because if there was a player thinking, I'll wait him out, well, then that's a bit of a disappointment.

34:28Which has been, to be honest, the case for Manchester United. Manchester United for quite a while. And it ends a lot of the uncertainty. As long as you believe it, it ends a lot of the uncertainty. So in that respect, it's a good thing. I would imagine, having interviewed Jim Ratcliffe, that off the record he would be even more interesting about certain aspects of Manchester United because that's him. He's really open about things. Yeah. But on that topic you said, and he is very, you know, he gives great quotes, let's be honest. For our gig, he gives great quotes. He's great on this podcast. He's great in your interview, Martin.

35:09But this is more than just, if this feels to me more than like an owner just giving the kind of trotted out, oh, we give him his full backing. There's a bit more depth to it here, isn't there? Johnny, what do you think? I was inclined to let Martin give you the context before I give you my Jim Prankler rant Do we think there's a proper genuine depth there Martin to what I'm saying rather than the standard owners thing. Certain elements of it didn't surprise me. He said exactly the same thing about the Glazers where I interviewed him He likes the Glazers and he thinks that they let him get on with it now whether him getting on with it is a good idea or not uh they let him go on with it so i wasn't surprised that he was supportive about the glazers i wasn't surprised that he was critical of the regime you know like the academy so that's the regime that he inherits yeah at the same time as that i've done something at the training ground recently where the the academies ended up in a porter cabin because they've they they've moved it around and you know there's two ways of looking at that there's one way how could you possibly treat the academy like this how could you put them in inferior facilities against that you can say well that's what the old youth teams and reserve teams used to be against they were all out painting the stand in the summer and stuff Lampard used to look across at the Chelsea academy at Cobham and and shake his head, and have you been in there?

36:45They've got games, they've got pool tables and stuff. We used to be out cleaning bird mess off the roof or whatever in June. That's how you treat the academy players. You give them something to aspire to. It's Manchester United, and everyone has got an opinion on every aspect of that club. There is no other club like it, and I think that's what Ameren... I haven't even thought he was at a big club in Sporting Lisbon. And then you come to Manchester United and it's like, oh, wow, this is off the dial big. This is just off the dial big. Everything we do is scrutinised. That's undoubtedly true. And I think one thing Jim Ratcliffe understands is the fevered nature of the debate around Manchester United.

37:35And he's right to talk about that in a way. although you know there's benefits that come with being the club that interests everybody like that because you make money from it I think the devil's in the detail yes so he's talking and it's a really fascinating interview but he's talking about a few things first of all he said that the way to get Manchester United back the top is the cost cutting and then growing the profit margin we're going to be the most profitable club in the world I mean have the open top bus parade now you know I mean great and that's going to bring us success we'll be the most profitable we'll spend more money that'll bring success spending money hasn't been Manchester United's problem since Fergie they've spent a lot of money making more profit isn't the problem having somebody that knows how to make profit in charge they had Ed Woodward that is not the problem with Manchester United obviously it's desirable for a business I don't see that as a fix Ruben Amorim it's great to want to back you man manager and Man United have got the ultimate example of Ferguson.

38:43The principal's great but it's the detail. I mean we're talking about 50 games into a Ruben Amirim reign which has been dismal to the point that beating Sunderland narrowly evokes this upsurge of sudden optimism because it's better than the drivel that people had seen before. He says in the interview, look at Michael Arteta he found it really difficult to start with you know, blah blah blah, he was back so I did a bit of homework here 50 games in, Arteta had won the FA Cup, he'd won the Community Shield, he was in the quarter finals of the League Cup, he'd improved the league position he'd taken a guy called Bakayo Saka, who was a young left back and he put him in an attacking position and started developing he'd got a new team around youth, around the Saka's, around the Kettias he'd use seven different formations trying to find what the right team was that the results maybe weren't universally brilliant but there was a manager there at work that I think Arsenal fans could see uh they could see where it was going and the hallmarks of Arteta were already there I am not seeing that from Ruben Amrum so yeah back your manager but there comes a point where You've got to look at how badly does a reign have to be before you just look at not the backing principle, but the reality principle, which has to change.

40:10Fergie, by two seasons of Fergie, which was round about 50 games, he finished second in his second season. There's a myth that it was utter disaster from day one until he won against Nottingham Forest. It was up and down, but the hallmarks were there. he signed the young Ryan Giggs in his first week as a youth player he'd signed Steve Bruce, Mark Hughes Brian McLear in his first year, so what I'm trying to say is that back a manager but there has to be evidence that things are going in the right direction On the signings point, do you not think signings Bomo, Kuhn I think they're good signers I'm not saying he's the world best goalkeeper but Sanne Lemons keeping a clean sheet, catching crosses all of a sudden that's a positive they are positive no no they are and I believe that there are underlying stats you know final third entries touches in the box blah blah blah expected this that show the team's improving so fine okay fine maybe there is a case at this point having made the summer investment if the stats are there to give it a little bit longer but the idea that you get three years of what we've seen so far from Amram and it's not an attack on Amram he's As Martin said, he's floundering in a really difficult environment.

41:29It's maybe not his fault and his creation, but he's not reacting, in my mind, well to that. I just think that it might help if that just gives them a little bit of space. That just gives them a little bit of breathing space. As in what Ratcliffe said. Yeah. This is a team that can't win two games on the turn. That is the most astonishing statistic. that the last time they won more than one league game at a time is the last two games of 23-24 and the first game of 24-25. It was a three-game winning run in the league and since then they have never won more than one game without the next one either being a draw or a defeat.

42:18Well, that is quite incredible for a club of Manchester United stature because in that time, how many times have they played two home games in succession? I mean, it's remarkable. So something needs to happen so that there is not this permanent, permanent inquest. And I absolutely take what John is saying about Amorim because I've thought it and, you know, when you're talking, it's laughable when you're talking about the different formations that Arteta tried and, you know, it's sort of the argument, well, we've tried nothing, you know. what more can we do and so you know 3-4-3 and that's it but at the same time there had to be something there where you just said right it cannot be that we lose on the Saturday and then the next seven days are is the manager going to be sacked and so this is an attempt it would seem to me to go right you can't wait him out this is our manager now if at the end of the season they're 16th was it what was they 15th or 16th 16th yeah last season 16th 17th they were 16th if they're 16th at the end of this season or 15th but if they're in the same position at the end of this season I think Jim McCliff would then go I know I said through this but what I actually meant was you're fired on that point about finishing the season you made a very interesting assertion in the first half of the show about I think Manchester United will muscle their way in there I think they will do you do that on the basis of them being Manchester United and them having good players or i.e.

44:05I'm kind of teasing the idea that you're doing it because you think they might not have Ruben Amarin with what they've got they can get in the top six they can get in the top six because in the end Crystal Palace have got a European campaign. It's going to, you know, they've played their first match of it, you know, come back when you've played eight or ten or whatever. You know, and Bournemouth, the greatest will in the world. I mean, and they've got players like Semenya who I think is absolutely fantastic. Yes. But you just, you just think it's going to be very hard in the way it was for Nottingham Forest last season.

44:46that in the end we watched them, watched them, watched them, and they're going to do it, they're going to do it, they're going to do it. And in the end they came seventh. And we saw that with Leicester a few years before, didn't we? Yeah, absolutely. It's so hard. It's so hard to sustain. And then you think, well, who's best place to take advantage? And I think, you know, possibly Manchester United and Chelsea. But then Newcastle are becoming stronger again now and everything. But they've also got a European campaign and a few injuries and all of this. I just think that, you know, I'm not saying they're going to finish in the Champions League.

45:23No, no, no. I'm just interested because... It could be scraping into sixth place. But I can see it's possible. Yeah. Johnny, just finally on you. I talked about some of those players. Are there bright sparks on the pitch in individual playing sense? I think, for example, Matthias De Ligt is starting to look like a bit of a leader at the back for United. Yeah. and I joke about Lamont's playing Mason Mount everyone's like oh I get it now I get Mason Mount I get Mason Mount I get why Amarim loves him I get why Southgate loves him are there little green shoots of individual moments for United of course there is and I know I've had a rant about Amarim but that very considered thought thank you but he's not he's not he's not a fool we know he's a good coach it just hasn't been working for him But we are seeing, yes, there are bits where he's made his impact.

46:17Mason Mount and De Ligt in particular, Ahmad in particular, although now he's starting to toggle between positions in a way that I wonder if it will help him. And Bumo's really starting to come into his own. He is a good player. And Lammans looks like a good signing. So it's not all hopeless. I just think if you want to be a really serious top club there has to be a benchmark there has to be a minimum requirement for everyone's performance for everyone's performance you have to hold the team to account and that's that's where I think United need to be with this Well that's what you said last week wasn't it that sort of Debbie Downer type switch that he gave Amourine where they've just won or whatever and he comes out and well you've got to do it every week and you know you're like I've got to go get a Sunday yeah yeah absolutely but that was the point he was making wasn't it basically it's okay doing it at Sunderland at home but you know where were you at Goonsby and where were you here and where were you there basically which is a fair point which is worth pointing out well Ruben Amarin might have been on a downer but Jim Ratcliffe has got lots of positive things to say about Manchester United you can listen to the full episode of the Business Podcast the new podcast from the Times and Sunday Times find it wherever you get your podcasts.

47:39Now, chaps, let's wrap up with a bit of a chat about England. Of course, they're playing tonight against Wales in a friendly at Wembley before a World Cup qualifier against Latvia next Tuesday. Johnny, you'll be at both of those games. As I say, let's not get too much into what's going to happen against Wales because there's every chance people will be listening to this on Friday morning after the results happened. But you spoke to Tuchel yesterday coming out with a chat about England wanting to be the underdogs. We've got some of the best players in the world, Tommy. What's going on? I think there was a question a slight kind of nuance issue or language issue there, to be honest.

48:11There's a lot of nuance with what Thomas would be. Whenever you look at it and go, well that's cobblers, someone goes, ah yes, it's nuanced. So you're thinking, no, it's cobblers. That's true. You've got a cocktail of a guy that's very eloquent who loves to talk but isn't talking in his first language. And we're getting these things. When he said underdog mentality, what he was he was trying to talk about humility and trying to talk about it's actually the more he goes into his reign the more he starts to understand all the stuff Gareth Southgate understood I think he's talking about that thing that Southgate engendered which was throwing away the old we are England we've got the best players we should be winning the World Cup and if we don't it's a disaster and trying to look at it more from the perspective of humility we haven't won and to win we need to actually fight and not just assume that we've got the talent and that we're going to do it.

49:12And maybe in that way take some pressure off players by getting them to focus on performance and so on. That's what he was trying to talk about. But he spoke to us in the dressing room at Wembley and he did end up with journalists going, but you can't be the underdogs, you're England. And him going, but you've never won anything. So, you know, he said, if you turn up at Wimbledon and you've never won Wimbledon, you can't be the favourite for Wimbledon. You might be one of the favourites, but you can't be the favourite. Then it descended into a discussion about bookmakers' odds, which he didn't quite understand.

49:47It's not as big a thing in Germany. I'll make just one point why you can't be the underdogs. If you've nicked someone else's manager because you've got more money than everybody else, right? That's a good point. You have once again done the, we're England, there it is, come and manage us because we haven't produced a coach worth a carrot. You can't then go, we're the underdogs. Oh, poor us. Because you've blown it, you're Man City. You've blown everyone out the water. It's win at all costs. That's what you've done. Oh, I can have, we're underdogs if Gary Southgate's in charge. Your middle's well relegated.

50:27Right, yeah, we're underdogs. No gratuitous digs at Gary Southgate. There's no Gertrude's digs at Gareth Southgate whatsoever. But he was the best that we could possibly put in the job. He was our under-21 manager. We gave him the chance. And we haven't won anything since 1966, and I'll go with that as well. And all of that, you go, oh, we're the underers. We've got to have a bit of humility. It's not like we've got a Pep Guardiola in charge of us. We've got the best coach that we think we've got. You know, Middlesbrough got relegated, under-21 manager. Nice fella. looks good in a waistcoat that's who we've got and you know we're going a little bit humble we're not we are sploshing money about like it's you know party time in Vegas and you can't then go oh you know we are a heap no we're not we are this giant you know concern that really is arrogant enough to think we deserve to take one of the best coaches in Germany for ourselves to get us over the line.

51:35And it's not his fault. And I always, you know, whenever I'd say things like this, everyone thinks I'm having a go at Tuchel. I'm not having a go at Tuchel. I'm having a go at the FA and our system. It is not his fault. This is nothing to do with Thomas Tuchel. It's not his fault he's taking the job. Not his fault he's in the job. Not his fault what he is seeing. but we can't pretend we're underdogs when we are taking Germany's best coach. Quite a persuasive argument, Johnny. No, no, no. Listen, I do see the dissonance from an FA point of view because this was the appointment to win the World Cup.

52:13This is literally what they were saying. We've appointed this guy to win the World Cup. We've got players that are so good, we should be winning the World Cup. We've got to finals, we just need to get over the line. But we can't win the World Cup so we've got to get this guy in so we can win the World Cup and he's coming in and said what I'm going to do is I'm going to drop all those players that are always making them underdogs isn't he and now we're the underdogs but I think there is a dissonance there but as a coach meaning it as a coach of the team he is right he is right to try and realign the team's thinking around performance and around you know not being able to assume that they're going to be brilliant just because of the names on the backs that's what a good coach does as I say that's what Gareth Southgate did by the way he did say that after the Serbia game there's a change in how you know people who come up to him when he's having a coffee behave where he said you know before all the fans were saying bring it home Thomas and now they're saying just give us more performances like Belgrade so whether that's true or not I mean that's the way he's trying to look at things that would last for a couple of weeks I think A few more performances like that, then they'll want the trophy.

53:26What part of Germany's in when people come and have a screen? Martin, you touched on the topic of leaving out players, and of course this squad prompted a lot more conversations that we'd had last time in the international break of, OK, right, we do quite well with no Jude Bellingham, no Phil Foden and no Cole Palmer. Turns out the best way to solve that problem is just not play any of them. It's going to be interesting what we get, obviously, isn't it, Johnny, in terms of we've got friendly against Wales and then we've got a match against Latvia. there's probably going to be quite a lot of pressure on these players that are in this squad to show that the team is still what matters the tactics are what matter and that yes you can have good players but it's just not a case of throwing them all in the same team the ideal thing is that these players rise to that challenge play well in these games and that principle of team first has been established and then the ideal thing is that you're able to integrate people like Bellingham and Palmer because they are so good and Tuchel did say it himself yesterday the idea was to have your best players on the pitch I do think it's interesting just very quickly you made me think of that you're not mentioning Phil Foden there and I'm not suggesting anything by that but I do think it's interesting how he started the season Foden's the one he's playing better than the others Foden is the one that 20 years now we're 20 years on from Paul Scholes' return for international football August 2004

54:49and he's the one we now look back on. Even more, Lampard, Jard, all of that, you look back and go, how did we waste Paul Scholes? How did we end up playing him on the outside left and telling him to stay there? That was the thing. It wasn't Haji, where Haji used to start and then come in. It was on the outside left. It was rigid, wasn't it? Hug the touchline. Stay in there. How did we end up with that? And you think Foden could end up being the same? I think in 20 years' time, you'll look back and go, how did we not identify that Foden was one of the best players this country has produced? And I'm not so...

55:32It's not a build the team around it. I'm not saying you build the team around anybody. If you build the team around someone and he gets injured, that I do agree with Tuchel on. If you build a team around somebody and he gets injured, then you are stuffed. but how do we not look at it and go right how we play we find room for for this guy to pull the strings because no one pulls strings like this guy i i i think foden has um been damaged if that's the right word by having not having been given that defined role in the team and and one thing i like about tuchel is he is defining what his team looks like and there's only room for one number 10 in it.

56:17So this is where the heat is going to be between now in terms of our debate and the World Cup. And that, you know, is that number 10 going to be Bellingham? Is it going to be Foden? Is it going to be Rodgers? Is it going to be Palmer? It can't be more than one of them. And then the other ones have to try and... Belling, he said, he actually said yes, there could be a nine in certain games if Kane's not available. But he's also said he could possibly be deeper in the pitch. I'm not entirely convinced just because that's not I think he's got all the characteristics but he's not doing that for Real Madrid but I would hope because I'm a big Foden I'd hope that if Foden's playing the best out of all of them he plays but if it's Bellingham it's Bellingham if it's Palmer it's Palmer and that we understand that you just can't have all of them because I think what you do need is pace either side of Kane on the flanks so putting any of them out in the wide positions but as much as it's a difficult problem it's actually quite clarifying and simplifying, isn't it?

57:17I think we're getting clarity. That's what he's done, isn't it? You just summed it up there, Johnny. Listed four players, but it can only be one of them. So we can't sit around going, get them all in. Maybe we will do. Fast forward six months. That's exactly what we'll be doing before the World Cup. You can sit there and say, get them all in. Get them all in. Because if you've got the gun coach, that's one of the things you were trying to get the gun coach to do. Southgate couldn't make this work. And so the presumption was he wasn't creative enough. he wasn't smart enough I happen to disagree with that but that was the presumption now we get the gun coaching he'll show you how you make this work and he goes Anthony Gordon and Nonny Maduweco that's how you do it yeah exactly but if Gary Southgate had done that everyone would have wanted him lynched if he'd have gone yeah I'd leave three of them out and that's how we do it you know it's very very difficult but I think Foden is the one that we all look back on and think, how did we manage to waste that?

58:18And it happens too often in English football. But we don't actually recognise who the good player is. Very, very interesting. Lots of excellent talking points on today's episode of the Game Podcast. If you've got views on any of them, please do get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. We'll have to leave it there. Johnny Northcroft, Martin Samuel and Gregor Robertson, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. As I say, we'll be back on Monday to talk about England. We'll see you then.

58:43Thank you.