"Harry Kane deserves the Ballon d'Or"

0:00Hi, I'm Katie Prescott from the Times Tech Podcast. AI is already changing business and medicine, but could it also change the way we look after our own health? In a special episode in Paid Partnership with Vitality, we look at how AI, wearables and everyday health data could help shift healthcare from treating illness to preventing it. Listen to the Times Tech podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Your call has been forwarded to an automatic voice message system. A missed call doesn't feel like anything. No red flag, no notifications screaming at you. it just disappears into your call log. And nine times out of 10, that was someone ready to hand you money.

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1:36Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. On today's show, a winning Champions League return for Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester City and Aston Villa. A nine-goal Stamford Bridge Carabao Cup thriller. A Ballon d 'Or shortlist of 30 names, but Harry Kane is among the favourites. A VAR revelation for one of our panellists, thanks to West Ham United's relegation to the Championship. And should Tottenham Hotspur be given Chelsea's 2016-17 Premier League title? Mauricio Pochettino thinks so. I'm Gregor Robertson and joining me in the studio today, we have the chief correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, and the former Chelsea and Aston Villa striker and Times columnist, Tony Cascarino.

2:20Guys, good to have you. Good to be here, Gregor. Martin, you know, I think most people know who we're talking about, but the VAR revelation, we'll come to that in the second half of the show. but maybe something good to come from West Ham's relegation to the Championship. There's nothing good because it doesn't really matter what I say. It's not going to happen but it's just a revelation from me. It goes without saying I'm happy that maybe you've come to the dark side and you're not a fan of very dark side. Anyway, let's start with the interview in today's Times by Peter Rutzler. Mauricio Pochettino, Chelsea broke the rules, Spurs should have been awarded title.

2:57That's the headline in today's Times. This relates to Pochettino led Tottenham to their best finish in the modern era in 2017. Finished second behind Conte's Chelsea. But reflecting on that season now, he sees it differently. He thinks that Chelsea, in light of their confirmed punishment for 74 breaches of FA rules during the Roman Abramovich era, he believes that Spurs should be awarded the title. What do you think? Doesn't happen, does it, in English football? They don't like asterisks. I can understand why leagues don't like Asterisks, because Asterisks are deaf to the credibility of a league.

3:36You've got to remember that season. There's lots of records that were set in that season. I said it before with the Manchester City and the 115 charges and all of this, that there's a lot of footage. There's a lot of Sky own the rights to the history of the Premier League as much as anything else. They've got the Aguero moment and they've got all of these different, and you suddenly go, that's not relevant anymore, Aguero, because we're going to take that title off Manchester City and here's your title-winning footage from that season. It's Manchester United looking as miserable as sin, walking around, was it Sunderland?

4:17Yeah, Sunderland, walking around the pitch at Sunderland, you know, having lost the league. The sporting bodies don't like doing that stuff So I mean would that be the ultimate deterrent though? Might it work? Might it work? What happened with Chelsea What happened with Chelsea And a lot of people think that Chelsea's punishment was very lenient And they should have been deducted points And they should have been this and they should have been that They were given a£10 million fine Suspended two window transfer ban What happened with Chelsea is They self-reported And then they worked with the Premier League's lawyers on the case.

4:54So the Premier League didn't know any of this stuff. And then suddenly Chelsea's lawyers are going, look, see, we've got all of this. There's all of this documentation here. There's your documentation there. This is this. So when they come to make the punishment, it was absolutely brilliant on the part of the new Chelsea owners you don't get very much credit for much at all. But the people at the club who ran that case for them did a fabulous job because they made themselves the friends of the Premier League. They made themselves the people who got that case over the line for the Premier League and for the Premier League's lawyers.

5:37So when it came to deciding the punishment, it would have seemed very harsh if having helped them with all the information or whatever, they then went... Stacked us in the back. 20 point deduction so they went they made it a financial penalty yeah Cass this is mainly related to transfers conducted before that season so but you know still the spine of the team there was Eden Hazard Willian David Luiz Nemanja Matic all players who were bought by the club and it's now being confirmed that those transfers happened with the help of undisclosed payments to intermediaries so like where do you stand on this retrospective I think you have to be very careful because loopholes get exposed all the time.

6:20And there's been, in my opinion, probably a number of clubs all over Europe and elsewhere that have done things that would have been against the rules. And I think... It's more than a loophole, we should say. Well, yes. It's not one. It's not one. It's not one thing that loophole in the rules. Yeah, but I'm talking there's going to be some bigger ones, Gregor, and some smaller ones. There are all different things that happen in football that is unfair, OK? Many teams have done it. Many teams have established... I mean, there's teams that will take it further. There's clubs that will do whatever they can to get a certain player.

6:52They'll pay more to an agent if they can get that deal over the line. I'm not condoning it. I'm just trying to say that we could go with a hammer. You could go down and go, yeah, take the league away from them. I just, how many would you end up going for? Because if it started at Chelsea, you'd end up going, well, let's do some digging now and let's see some other teams that maybe cross that line as well. now I have a bit of a problem with it because I've always said to you Gregor my biggest fear for football is that there's going to be a real lawyer impact in football and it's happening in all different areas and I think if you're going to take it that far you could end up saying stripping from the league I just think it's never ending you're going to start one place and you're going to end up somewhere else very very quickly OK let's get on to the football shall we Champions League action this week for English teams return to action on Tuesday and Wednesday.

7:46Manchester United to play tonight, of course. Shall we start at Anfield, Tony? Yeah. Good night for Alexis McAllister after a bit of a... Well, a bold press conference 24 hours earlier. He said he was very, very sad not to have been offered a new contract when other players in his position had. Did you ever feel sad, Gregor, when you were a contract? Many times, Tony. Exactly, I did as well. You've got a new deal. I said, I haven't been offered a new deal. Well, he's got two years left. Yeah. And I suppose, as they say, you're talking on the pitch and he did that. Well, many players played very well in their last year of their contract, do brilliantly well.

8:22Ken Bates, who I played under on Chelsea, once said, don't give contracts in sort of April time before the end of the season because they'll disappear, the players, by the end of the season. So that's always stuck with me. I just feel like you haven't played well enough. He didn't play to the levels he had in the previous, not last season. We'll go back to last season, sorry. He didn't play well. The previous season to that, he played a much higher level. Now, this year, he started really well. One of the big standout features of Liverpool, I feel they look way fitter very quickly. I'm watching Virts now literally charge all over the pitch.

9:00Now, I know I've gone away from McAllister, but generally they look way fitter. And he does. He looks way more up to speed. Do you think they looked open still? Yeah, they do. Everyone looks open. Apart from Arsenal, everybody looks open. Man City look open. Everyone looks open. In the early days in OIO's tenure, obviously he likes to press high and leave space in behind, but particularly for Laurenti's goal, they were just torn asunder in the first half a couple of times. Well, look, I thought one of the standout things you mentioned, Verts there, is when you're seeing Barcola and Isak and Verts, you're looking at that and you're beginning to see how it could work I mean we've got Echotique to come back as well but you're beginning to see how that forward line could work because there's been a lot of talk about Chelsea have got the best forward line but you're looking at a lot of the other clubs now and going well actually that ain't a bad forward line if you can get Virts Barcola and Isak going to get I mean And Ekotike to come into that, well, you know, you buy that for a dollar.

10:09Manchester City with, you know, with Semenyo and with Haaland and with Turkey and Doku. And, you know, there's a lot of very good forward lines there. Not so many good defences, but there's a lot of very good forward lines there. Vurts was really interesting to me. But Vurts was good last night. I've always argued, we all know he's a great player. We all know technically he's superb. We all know that. He was, I always felt he was on the fringe of games at Liverpool last year. Way too often. And he's much better than that. And now, watching last night, and like Martin touched on, you're just seeing the seeds now of someone who's starting to develop in his game.

10:44Because last year, he was flicking, he looked a little bit raw, naive in his game, struggled. But, you know, we all know there's a player there. So that was a big positive for Liverpool. And Bradley Barkal, that was his Anfield bow. Could have scored twice, probably. One on one, yeah. Came off with cramp, but you can see that they've got a player there. Well, he's lining quick, isn't he? And, you know, I've always said, and he's so young, so you give him the absolute benefit of the doubt, the one downside to his game was always how clinical he would be in front of the goal. Yeah. And if he comes even a little bit better than that, he'll absolutely take fullbacks apart because he's so quick.

11:22And he's direct. And I just, I think it's a really good signing because that's going to be Areola's team. It's going to be stretching the opposition and they're going to break into spaces. You've got to defend against that. That's a hard thing to do. OK, on to Naples next. Arsenal 1-0 win against Napoli. As you say, Martin, one team who managed, I think that's the 20th clean sheet in 40 Champions League games under Mikel Arteta. That's an extraordinary record. Four more than any other side since the start of the 23-24 season. Arsenal had 26 shots. That's the one thing possibly from this game. They had so many chances, passed up many, and it was still a bit nervy towards the end.

12:00Yeah, absolutely. I think we're going to touch on Odegaard. Odegaard looks absolutely fantastic, doesn't he? He looks like the World Cup player as opposed to Arsenal last season where, by his standards, he didn't seem to have the greatest season. If you look to Arsenal players in the World Cup, the best Arsenal players at the World Cup, all the guys that actually last season were the ones who were a little bit disappointed or they were on the fringes and they weren't in there. Whereas their main players, like Gabriel and Saliba, didn't have the greatest World Cup, the guys that they were absolutely relying on last year.

12:43And I must admit, I thought, I was looking at that thinking, this could be hard for Arsenal to retain this title because their main guys look as if they're, you know, Saka, for instance, you know, he looks knacky, looks broken. It's took them so much to get over the line. what are they going to look like at the start of the season when we've got the answer to that they look very very good they look very very good Odegaard in particular I think has been exceptional the goal was a thing of beauty 29 pass build up and that kind of just that little bit of bravery or incisive play around the edge of the box that he opens up a pocket of space with a good little touch from Solis we should say but he's a match winner four goals and five already to start the season Yeah, I did a piece of him probably 18 months, two years ago, talking about how he made Arsenal work and his performances.

13:35And that got, as Martin touched on, lost a bit last year. But it just shows you the difference of someone who's in their absolute peak of pomp physically. Because when he's on his physical game, he has got all the ability in the world. And he just makes them tick. Just a little side story on this one is that I was watching a programme before the Arsenal game. and I was watching this programme. It's about anacondas. Oh, okay. Right? It's about anacondas. So I'm watching it and I'm not here and then I put Arsenal and I think, they're the anaconda of football because they literally crush and strangle literally everything.

14:13Every player wraps himself around another player in the opposition. And I thought, they've got like 11 anacondas in their team. And I started to think about the goals against Colum and I'm thinking, only one team scored against them this year. so far this season it's Chelsea they didn't concede against Man City in the Community Shield haven't conceded in any other games Champions League games Premier League game they've conceded one goal you have to go back to mid-April the last time they conceded two and this team is so much better even though Saliba's not there this team is just unbelievable at stopping the opposition and all I kept thinking of was that the Anacondas West Ham last season were very much like squirrels All the fans were going nuts Very skiddy So they couldn't find their nuts But you know what I mean Every player raps himself Ben Wyatt Where's that come from?

15:07Ben Wyatt has played Nearly every game for him And he's looked superb I've seen that trio Again of Odegaard Saka and White again A bit of a throwback To a couple of years ago They've just got so much Intuition And you know And Calafiori's role And you know But they all do it I mean, how much do you think the impact of the Gabriel Heinzer on the fullbacks has had? Is that me just being... Because he was a really tenacious, no-nonsense, you know, whether he played in France or Manchester United, just watching him. They all looked like... He was like that. He would literally get himself wrapped up with a winger and literally be all over him, smother him, don't give him time to think.

15:49And all of them fullbacks do that. is the only one potential well it's not even a concern clearly Arsenal started the season brilliantly but I think only Saka Odegaard and Havertz have scored the goals like this game in particular showed that beyond them maybe they've still not got that well a Havertz injury obviously Havertz Havertz injury and he has had injuries in the past a Havertz injury brings Giocares back into the forward line or a firing line the firing line exactly and the debate then begins is this a guy that you can win a league with? Now, they've won the league with him, so you go, well, there's your answer.

16:27They won the league with him. You wonder if they could win it again with him or whether teams would have worked him out a little bit more. It's a difficult one because the only thing you can see stopping Arsenal at the moment would be some sort of injury issue. And it would also have to be in a very specific area, like the centre-forward area, because in the other areas they've got a reserve team that would probably finish top four. I mean, Conce has joined and looked like he's been there for years. Yeah. And, you know, you're talking there in reference to the Premier League. Is the same true of the Champions League?

17:05Obviously, they were finalists last year. I think it's last November, two years ago, was the last time they lost a league phase game. They've been dominant up until... Have a look at the record of English clubs in the league phase game. I mean, that is, you know, one of the reasons why you look at this, you know, I've caught up with highlights and stuff like that. I was at Kurt Vahl at the Troxie last night. You know, I wasn't sitting in front of the television because you know, well, he was brilliant, by the way, Kurt Vahl, he was absolutely superb. But anyway, because you know the way this is going to go.

17:44Every game was a win, wasn't it? Yep. I haven't got that wrong. Every game was a win. And we're not going to win every, but have a look at how many games English clubs have lost in the group phase. It's next to nothing, really. And even when the fixtures came out, and there's a couple of teams that have got hard, difficult runs. Man City, I think everyone was saying, oh, Man City have got a difficult run. Last year Benfica got through on nine points You know They need to win three matches Yeah Which is well comfortable for them You know Which is You know A season before I think it took a point more or whatever But really There should not be Given the strength of our league There should not be a single English club that is not involved in the last 16 OK, let's talk about Man City next 2-0 winners against Porto in Portugal Erling Haaland with both goals Should Mark Gay have been sent off, do you think, Martin?

18:53Look, I've written a lot about elbows and elbow contacts and I don't think it's taken anywhere near as seriously as it should be if you look at what Gary Mabbit has had to live with throughout his retirement and things like that it's it's horrendously dangerous it really is uh you know the in Hume thing uh Barnsley versus Sheffield United at that time a man could have died if he if his wife is not switched on the following morning and works out that he's not making sense basically um and he's in the kitchen and he's talking but he's not making sense and she realizes something seriously wrong and he had a bleed on the brain that would have killed him.

19:39I would be super strict on that. And do I think that's a sending off? Yes, I do. Which is probably no sense of malice or anything. I don't think he means it. I mean, the inhuman Chris Morgan thing, I defy anyone to look at that footage and not say that Chris Morgan knew what he was doing. He checked where he was, he had his feet planted. it's a totally different thing to Mark Grehe but you've got to be careful and I know it can be an accident but you know so can breaking someone's leg that can be an accident there's plenty of leg breaking tackles that are complete accidents and I think it's a very serious I don't think it justifies you know the punch up in the tunnel and everything that was going on but at the time I think that's a word I don't know we're going to talk about VAR later.

20:35I don't know what the point of VAR is if it is not for something where you can say to the referee, I think you should look at that. I think you might have missed one there. Yeah, the elbows are dangerous, Gregory. I mean, you playing at full back, playing against wingers. You know, I lost two front teeth for an elbow. Yeah. Broke my nose for an elbow. Quite common in the game. And did you think they were deliberate, Tony? Some of them, most definitely mine. It could be. It was a period of the game. Yeah, absolutely. You know, if you look in 80s and 90s football, especially more so 80s, that, you know, the full pack or the winger would either receive an elbow or get an elbow in the front.

21:16Centre forwards, I remember playing against Gary Briggs and Shotten at Oxford. Gary Briggs was a real feisty one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He done me like a kipper of an elbow. Only from a literally split second, me moving, he would have really nailed me. with an elbow. And it was the days of obviously no VAR. So, but you know, this isn't just on Gary Briggs at Oxford. And Malcolm Shotton was the other centre-half, who's a really tough lad as well. You had them type of players that it was a sort of, yeah, badge of honour sort of, you know, that you could use your elbow. The elbow is solid. If you hit someone with an elbow, you can really hurt them.

21:54Just on Enzo Marekka's start, I mean, again, another win, another two goals for Erling Haaland. I don't feel like it's really properly taken flight yet does it? What do you think? Manchester Derby this weekend Manchester Derby this weekend Clearly be favourites but it's Yeah you'd fancy them wouldn't you? You'd fancy them Was it Johnny Northcough on the weekend or his piece on Man City? Was it the weekend or the start under last week? Johnny Northcough Which one? Which one? The one on Man City of how much they've spent and you know he was talking about spending 400 million but you're sort of you know you're looking at paint dry watching them that was important from the game yeah which is you know and there is a part of us that we're thinking there has to be more to this there was a case in the game last night I remember watching this and it was kind of side to side and not much incision and it was kind of actually livened up by that moment just before half but when you've got Haaland you can just be the killer they're always going to have a chance Tony yeah he's the centre forward that you just know.

22:59He never seems to lose belief in his ability to be not really in the game and being a bit like we talked earlier about being on a fringe of a game. Then suddenly a moment comes and he'll make the most of it. I mean, the header he got last weekend when Semenya crosses and he literally hit the far post. You know, that to me is just a forward that's absolutely ready in every scenario, even if he's not involved in the game. It doesn't bother him to do nothing. It doesn't bother him not to be involved. Well, it will do if he doesn't score goals, Mark. Yeah. But this never happened. Yeah, absolutely.

23:32Absolutely. If he wasn't scoring goals, if he went 10 games without a goal, I'm sure he'd be knocking on the manager's door. If he wasn't getting much of a kick of the ball, he'd be like, I need to... I think he'll get better service from a Mastro team than he probably will from a Guardiola team. Because they seem to be feeding him already. I mean, Fernandes has got a very good relationship with him already. I mean, I'll come back to my point of God knows why Chelsea solved that problem for Manchester City. But I think Mureska will be far more willing to play absolutely to Harland's strengths than a Pep Guardel to Manchester City was.

24:15Interesting. Okay, final games, Aston Villa 3, Club Brugge 2. Goals from Super John McGinn, Emi Wendia and Nicholas Jackson. Nicholas Jackson the one I want to talk about though yeah not drumming in no we can talk about we can talk about if you want everything about his transfer to Villa was centred around the transfer fee yeah I have to admit it passed me by that he worked with Unai Emery at Villarreal like obviously he's a direct replacement for Ollie Watkins do we feel that this could be possibly a bit unlucky at Chelsea his goal record wasn't bad I think he got 17 goals in his first season 13 in his next season got a living for Bayern in very few games like do we think this could be a decent fit for Aston Villa taking the transfer away from this well it's look you look at Oli Watkins he didn't have although he's got scored lots of goals for Villa and was very vital to them you know he was stretching teams all the time and he would get enough chances to score more goals and it was always aimed at him that not quite clinical enough to be a super top striker I've always loved Oli because I always used to think he just hurts the opposition all the time.

25:26And Jackson sort of ticks that box of stretching teams, getting chances. And it all comes down to how clinical he'll be, whether he's a big success. Because I think all the other parts of his game are really good. He's quick enough to get chances. You'll see Jackson get a lot over the course of a season, one-on-ones. Because he had them at Chelsea. He just wasn't as clinical as the expectation was at Chelsea. but I think it's a very look obviously Unai Emery knows how he plays his best football and I think Villa will change dramatically over the next few weeks and into October and before Christmas will be a completely different team with a slightly different dynamic but again it's the striker that stretches teams think it'll be a good football yeah I do you know what option have they got really they've lost a lot of players I think Jackson can be a liability as he was at the Club World Cup that time and he got himself sent off and everything.

26:22And I think that side of his game, but he was very young when he went to Chelsea. Was he now 24? 25? Yeah, 25. You know, you would hope he has matured. He's matured in front of goal, one would hope. He's matured as a personality on the field. Emery got the best out of him at Vidrio Al. He had that brilliant run of scoring right at the end of his video, which gets the move to Chelsea. It's a run of goals in about three months. And if Emery thinks he can get that out of him for Villa again, and he's older and he's wiser and he's smarter in his play, I definitely think it could work, yes. OK, Aston Villa fans will be hoping.

27:11And so loads more to come after the break, including a discussion about whether this might be Harry Kane's year for the Ballon d 'Or. And on that theme, the quiz question is, how many Premier League players are on the Ballon d 'Or list? Find out after the break.

27:37Hi, I'm Katie Prescott from the Times Tech Podcast. AI is already changing business and medicine, but could it also change the way we look after our own health? In a special episode in Paid Partnership with Vitality, we look at how AI, wearables and everyday health data could help shift healthcare from treating illness to preventing it. Listen to the Times Tech podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Outdated technology isn't going to improve a disconnected healthcare system. Next. So what will? At Optum, we wake up every day and work for better. We call it Healthy Optimism. It's how we use insights and technology to help providers focus less on paperwork and more on patients.

28:20Will we fix it all overnight? No. But we'll wake up trying again and again until healthcare works as one for everyone. That's Healthy Optimism. Learn more at Optum.com. Optum. Your call has been forwarded to an automatic voice message system. A missed call doesn't feel like anything. No red flag, no notifications screaming at you. It just disappears into your call log. And nine times out of 10, that was someone ready to hand you money. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q-U-O. The business phone system built so you never miss a call. Here's what I like about it. All your calls, texts, and voicemails live in one place.

29:00So anyone on your team can pick up a conversation, see the full history, and respond fast. No more, wait, who talked to this customer last? And if you're worried about after-hours leads slipping through, Quo's optional built-in AI agent can answer questions and even book appointments while your team's offline. It's the number one rated business phone system on G2, and over 90 ,000 businesses already trust it to stay reachable. Money is on the line. Always say hello with Quo. Try Quo for free. Plus get 20 % off your first six months when you go to quo.com slash tech. That's qo.com slash tech.

29:44Hello and welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Gregor Robertson alongside Tony Cascarino and Martin Samuel. Before the break, I asked a quiz question, which was how many Premier League players are on the 30-man Ballon d 'Or list? And the answer, Martin, was... Five. Five. Can we name them? Let's name them. Well, it's Erling Haaland, Gabriel, William Saliba, Declan Rice, Bruno Fernandes. Would have been Rodri and Mark Cucurello as well, but there's another two that we've lost. And we've got five out of 30 and Richard Masters keeps saying there's no talent training in the Premier League.

30:24He's kidding no one but himself. So you think this is a worrying trend? I think it's a very worrying trend. 30 players in the Ballon d 'Or 25 playing outside the league that we tell ourselves is the best and the biggest well it's certainly the biggest in terms of the money if you've only got 5 players out of 25 you know have a look at you know have a look at Spain and how many players they've got you know OK the question to that then Martin is in years gone by how many representatives do we know the most ever from the English Premier League I will know it by 70 times I'll know it by the time I'm right in the Sunday Times.

31:02A sense of call I'm coming. Well, you're right at a column item, maybe. Yes, because obviously we say only five, but there are quite a number of leagues from the French League and PSG. You've got Round Red, Barcelona and Bayern. Yeah, but we've been called the best players from the French League usually. That's what happens and that's no longer happening. You know, PSG, you know, managed to keep the players that they want to keep. Okay, well, let's talk about who the favourites are and whether this might be Harry Kane's year. Shall we start with Harry Kane? Yeah. You get 73 goals, right? You've got a chance.

31:34You should be the winner of the Ballon d 'Or. I'm very sorry. I've got huge admiration for Rodri, but he has won it already. Huge admiration for Rodri and what he does. But the hardest part of the game is putting it in the net. And if you've done it 73 times in one season, I think that makes you the Ballon d 'Or winner. 61 for Bayern, which is almost 40 % better than his previous best, 44 for the club. and obviously 12 more for England, six of which were at the World Cup. You kind of forget. Yeah, yeah. It's only just recently how the long game single-handedly for them. And he took a bit of stick.

32:10And the World Cup matter, it always seems to matter in this. If you look at, you know, the other favourites, Rodri is one of them, after having a pretty underwhelming season at Man City, but winning the golden ball at the World Cup and lifting the World Cup. So that should also help Harry Kane, Tony, no? Yeah, he's had an amazing time. His consistency over Champions League, German Bundesliga, international football, World Cup. He scored a huge amount of goals. And I mean, there's still some great... I mean, look, Kavros Gilio, who's on the list, who's in one of probably the top five, he didn't really turn up until after Christmas last year.

32:43He had half a year of not really being on these peak performances for PSG. And when he came alive, he was devastating. He ended up, I think, as big as anybody, helping PSG to win the Champions League. So there are people, Rodri, exceptional. but he didn't again he didn't have periods last year he was struggling for I would say probably until about February he weren't playing his absolute best and then by the end of the season with City he was playing really well and then obviously the World Cup it was his best level we've seen him so there are a few I just think if you're looking over a course of a year Harry Kane is definitely for me Kvaranskiel 33 goals and assists in all competition they say Georgia didn't make the World Cup but Donnie's right Martin, it's also the numbers matter but he's also something kind of really different in World Football at the moment, he's so devastating and when it really mattered, think of that classic against Inter Milan, he was the guy who tore us apart.

33:43He's a fabulous player, look you can't give it, he's not school sports day, you can't give it to everyone so you've actually at some stage got to go right okay this guy versus this guy and I would give it to Harry Kane. No one else in the running? Mbappe? 58 goals? I mean, have a look at Barcelona's start to this season. It's ridiculous. I mean, if they score less than five goals in any game, it's a disappointment. Is that the manager? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. No, it's a super high level. And we can discuss little minute things. But we've always said small margins make big differences. I think Harry Kane, what he did last year was extraordinary.

34:20And he's done, not say last year, he's done it for two years. I know that doesn't count from the previous year but he's been at a super high level and he's 33 and he's more getting better you see the problem the problem here is you would like a debate but we don't think there's no debate we don't think there is a debate yeah like I said Kvarnaskeli was the one that I always felt well if you look at the odds actually Tony he's not Kvarnaskeli is lower down the list of names we've just given there so you've got Kane Mbappé and Lamal I think are close following behind They now had a long time injured as well, didn't they?

34:55He did. Last year. So it's, again, it's... It's only the second teenager, the fourth teenager, sorry, to win the World Cup, I think. So, like, again, what happens in the international stage really seems to affect the outcome of this. Yeah, absolutely. But they were very much, that was very much a team victory, wasn't it? The Spanish victory was very much a victory for the collective more than for one individual. Yeah, absolutely. And even the individual that was picked out from the team is a guy that operates in a very team-minded way, isn't he? Rodri is not a great individual footballer. He's the fulcrum of a well-organised functioning team and he makes everything happen.

35:41Busquets of Barcelona. I would probably argue even better than Busquets. But that type of midfielder. Okay. Harry Kane's here then. got to be well if we were in charge of it but we're not so good luck Harry well if you were in charge of VAR Martin if I was in charge of VAR mate it would be gone it would be gone a stunning outcome tell us about your column your latest column which after watching West Ham for a few games in the championship well no what it is look I was never I was never a fan of VAR and I actually pointed this out the Thierry Henry handball against Ireland, I actually wrote a column that said, this isn't the answer, this is not a panacea that everyone thinks is going to be, you know, it's going to cause more problems.

36:35And I've gone back to that on several occasions, but always from the perspective of, well, it's here, it's here to stay. Right, how can we tweak it? How can we make it work? How can we? And when Gregor has said on this programme, I would scrap it off you can't do that you can't it's like trying to un-invent the wheel you know un-invent the car as we seem to be doing at the moment we've got to try and work with it rather than just abolish it and then as I pointed out in the column my team got relegated and so I'm now watching football without VAR whenever they play and it's better it's just simply better it's I can't I can't ignore it I cannot ignore it Look, it doesn't matter what I say.

37:21It's not going to happen. Wolves had their chance and they lost 19-1 trying to get VAR abolished. So it's not going to happen. None of what I say here makes the slightest bit of difference. I disagree. Apart from the fact that it's my realisation now that we're trying to tweak something that is so fundamentally flawed and is so against what sport is meant to be about that actually, and with you, I would scrap it. I forgot how much I missed the idea, football like it used to be, when the ball went in the net, you might have a sideways glance to make sure there's no offside flag or a sideways glance so the referee ain't waving his arms furiously or pointing somewhere else or whatever.

38:14And in that split second, you've got all the information. No one's doing anything. And, you know, no one's making a sign that suggests that there's something wrong. The ball's in the net. It's a goal. And I've seen so many goals. I'm not watching every single championship match. I'm watching my team in the championship. But I've seen a lot of goals that I'm thinking we'd knock off for four minutes with this. why we played it backwards and forwards, played it backwards and forwards. And we might come to the same conclusion. In fact, we probably would come to the same conclusion or we might have found something or whatever.

38:50But there is nothing in this that actually should overrule the on-field decision. There is absolutely nothing here that should overrule. So we were better off with the on-field decision. You're just better off with the on-field decision. And then we get on with it. I went to Millwall versus Norwich Championship and it was quite – I do watch quite a number of games anyway, lower down. Yeah. And actually – and I was always for VAR. Yeah. Okay? I never in a million years imagined it would become what it has. No, totally. And that is – wow, how did we get here? So then I go Brentford and you're talking about time.

39:32I go Brentford last weekend. there was one player that went down injured and it felt a little bit of time half time, eight minutes because of a VAR decision mainly eight minutes and I'm thinking how do we have eight minutes in the first half added on because mainly a VAR decision with Dan Ballard when they scored and went to the monitor and it just went on and on How do we just allow this? That's the problem How do we just allow this? So I now like what we're all talking about, I think, is there any way that we can just reconsider VAR? I don't get it, how I've got there, Gregor, in my thinking.

40:14The line that jumped out for me in your piece, which summed up, it said, we've lost the joy that should come with goals, and that's more valuable than the flawed truth that we've acquired. I think that sums up brilliantly, because there's no definitive truth most of the time. No, because there's not. And you can maybe reference the incident in the championship that you spoke about in this, the Wolves game. The Wolves game. The manager, the latest manager, and there's been a couple now, who are advocating for the introduction of VAR in the championship. He's based the order of one month and he wants to tell us how to do it.

40:47And it was nothing. It was a nothing moment. It was a nothing moment. And the guy, but the interesting thing was I wrote in the piece and I took a little chance by saying Wolves fans will not agree with their manager. Even though the Birmingham goal has stood and he thinks it was a handball, Wolves fans will not want to swap the season that they are having in the Championship. They'd scored until that point. They'd scored 18 goals. almost three goals a game in every game that your team has scored that you've just been able to celebrate and here we go. And sure enough, a lot of the people below the line were Wolves fans.

41:27Not one of them said, no, I agree with our manager. I'd rather have the Birmingham goal disallowed and all of that. Because invariably, I know there will be some mistakes. Of course there will be mistakes. And it might even be the odd travesty. but you don't tend. The Ireland situation, where they would have gone to the World Cup without that, that was such an outlier. And that's what I wrote, 2009. That's what I wrote, that this was a real outlier because it was the perfect storm to advocate technology. It was massively obvious that it had happened to everyone but the referee on the field. There was a clear restart.

42:13There was no suggestion about, oh, well, what happens if we let play on and then someone scores and then we're going to drag it back for something that's happened, you know. It was a clear restart because, you know, it's handball. The ball was in the net. Play had stopped anyway, so you've got time. Everything about it was perfect and the consequences were massive and irreparable. But everything isn't like that. That thing that the Wolves manager was complaining about, Birmingham's first goal, it's a two-all draw. That's their first goal. So you scrap that. The problem that Wolves had against Birmingham was their centre-half kicked the ball straight into his own net.

42:53That was the problem there. So, you know, that would be what, if I was a Wolves fan, that's what I would be ticked off about. Not the absence of VAR. Our centre-forward loopily playing the ball back to Jose Sar and straight into his own net for the two-all draw. So let's open it up a bit more then, say we're two ex-players, right? So how do you think the players would vote in the game? If they ever had a referendum on the players, how do you think they would vote? Do you think they'd vote by in or out? I don't know, I think it might depend on the level. I think now that it's in the Premier League, I fear that players would want potential, their potential, something that could save them from their blushes essentially.

43:35I think fans would vote 75, 80%. I think 80 % of fans, including Premier League. Players are fans. I know they're players. I think players might be more against it than you think. Maybe. Because no one's ever asked the players and said, look, because we all talk, we debate, we chat, and we're all in radios and on TV. There's all punditry going on. The actual players never get asked who are playing at the game at this moment. You said at the outset, none of this makes a blind bit of difference. Why? Why? Because it's here. And I don't think... That's the fetus, Martin. Mate, I've been tilting at windmills my entire life.

44:20Financial, fair play, you name it, mate. But I just don't think... I was talking to one of my lads last night and he said to me, VAR is football if football was played by referees. This is the version of football they would come up with because they're referees. That's a fair point. He said it wouldn't be the version of football that footballers would come up with. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's absolutely about referees. He also said something else that I thought was quite funny. He said, I think it was rather tongue-in-cheek, he said, well, they should do it like X Factor. Every game should have three people sitting there.

45:00you've got one minute and you go green or red, bang, right, that's it. And that's it. Unless you can't decide after a minute, you've got to vote that the on-field decision is right. It's not far off what some people advocate for. Who's going to spin around in the seat? Exactly. But do you know what I mean? It's that sort of thing. We've got to this ridiculous sort of situation where you're looking at it and going, well, that actually ain't the worst I hear. If it was three ex-professionals... Well, keep it entertaining. The theatre's professionals, they've got to vote within 60 seconds on what they've seen, and you need three green lights to reverse the decision.

45:36Other than that, it's the on-field decision. It made me laugh. Well, imagine Fraven on the side of the pitch. Yeah. Martin reading this call made me very happy indeed. Let's start a campaign now. I can see that by the sloppy grid in your face, this entire section. I think we need to end with Chelsea's, the nine-goal thriller. at Stamford Bridge it's ridiculous isn't it that on the night with the Champions League football there's also League Cup football I think actually if you were to ask players what their biggest issue is it's all the football I tell you what I know this there's never a day off anymore first day we don't want tiny violins for us I don't actually think about it from my point of view I think about it from from like a football fan's point of view, where in the end you go, well, I can't watch everything.

46:34And that's when you start going, well, it's Liverpool versus Real Madrid or whatever. But I know it was Atletico this week, but it's Liverpool against Real Madrid. Oh, they'll probably play in the knockout stage. I'll watch it when they're playing in the knockout stage. And you start actually being selective on games that would be appointment viewing because it's coming around again. you know oh it's Arsenal versus such and such oh but they played three times last season you know of all the League Cup games there weren't many shocks like it didn't make you think it just kind of faded into the background in a European week but this was an absolute filter Tony 6-3 to Chelsea they were 2-0 down in the 47th minute scored four goals in 12 minutes as Martin said there were a lot of changes made and then Neto Rhys James Morgan Rodgers Cole Palmer came on half and bang I mean we keep saying it it's chaotic but it's kind of fun yeah no well we had a chat remember before the start of the season where it was about what's going to be exciting or you know what you're looking forward to this year and I went Chelsea yeah yeah because you know I just felt they were going to be this now I know it's easy in hindsight looking back no but watching them and the way they go about their business it has taken I mean there's heavy metal football which we've seen for Klopp's team we've seen some of the Man City the way they possession based but also really effective.

47:57We're seeing all different styles of football. But even Alonso's team is an upgrade on attacking football. It's literally everywhere. When you see, like you say, the cavalry come on, it's like the first question you're thinking, how are Leeds going to deal with this? Yeah. And Leeds aren't a bad team. And they couldn't. Leeds are a good team. Yeah, yeah. Good side. I mean, the one, again, the one worry is how many goals Chelsea can see in this two or three in every game. They've got players to come back though, haven't they? I mean, Kaysido. Yeah. will make a difference. Pallestri, is it Pallestri?

48:29Pallestri. I'm pronouncing it right. Pallestri is their starting fullback. You know, if you looked at all the pre-season games, Pallestri was the starting fullback. So he makes a big difference, I think, to Alonso's system. Then James. Caldwell's not quite, he's obviously had long injuries. Yeah, I like Caldwell, but he hasn't had a great start. Fagner's had loads of injuries as well. Yeah. And I show it for Danny Wilbeck. he's turning the box 36th of November yeah him and Jordan Henderson were kind of signed and people thought there might be mascots there for their experience but if he gets opportunity in minutes he's going to make an impact I don't see why Welbeck would be considered a mascot given the season he had at Brighton last season you know which was good so I'm not saying you know Chelsea will obviously have ambitions of if not winning the league they would certainly have ambitions are finishing the top four and maybe winning a trophy or whatever.

49:28And I'm not saying you can make Danny Welbeck, you're starting centre-forward for a season and think you're going to win the league. But he's a hell of a guy to have coming off the bench. He really is. And in tournaments like the Carabao Cup. Because he was excellent. You look at his record at Brighton. Look at his record everywhere he's been since Manchester United. He's always done a job for everyone. Roy Hodgson loved him. I think we do. The media love him. The reason why, for me, is you can trust him. He won't let you down. Whatever you think of Danny Welbeck, he will not let you down. I think he's perfect for a manager who goes, Danny, get warmed up.

50:13If things are not going right, you know you're going to get a lot from him. His ability to hold up the ball, his ability in the air to seize a chance when he gets one. Yeah. I mean, I'd love to know, and obviously it's a hypothetical question, but just how good would Danny have been there? Because he had some serious injuries. Yeah, yeah. He had some really bad injuries along the way. For me, he could have easily, you know, played at the very highest level a lot longer. You know, I think he missed a whole year at Arsenal when he was there. I think he did, yeah. But fair play to him because he's been a great pro.

50:46It's always great for a manager to have great pros in addressing them. OK, well, Chelsea host Hull at the weekend, the only team who have yet to concede a goal. So we'll need Welbeck firing and everyone else. Manchester Derby to come on Sunday as well, of course. And we'll be back on Monday to discuss all of that and more. Hope to see you then.

51:20We also change the way we look after our own health. In a special episode in Paid Partnership with Vitality, we look at how AI, wearables and everyday health data could help shift healthcare from treating illness to preventing it. Listen to the Times Tech podcast wherever you get your podcasts.