Has VAR decided the title and relegation?

0:00ActiveCampaign is the marketing automation platform built for big swings and big dreams. Generate ideas in seconds, import your brand, and create full campaigns with simple prompts. Get started for free at ActiveCampaign.com. Running a business means juggling a lot of moving parts. And when your communication tools can't keep up, things start to slip. Missed calls, slow replies, scattered conversations. they're not just frustrating, they're lost opportunities and revenue left on the table. That's where Quo comes in, spelled Q-U-O. Quo is the number one rated business phone system on G2, trusted by over 90 ,000 businesses.

0:43One shared business number for calls and texts, so every conversation stays visible, organized, and accountable. It works from an app or computer. You can keep your existing number, add teammates, and sync your CRM, letting you scale without adding complexity. And with built-in AI, Quo logs calls, summarizes conversations, and flags next steps, even after hours. Stop missing customers. Stop leaving revenue on the table. Try Quo free and get 20 % off your first six months at quo.com slash tech. That's Q-U-O dot com slash tech. Quo. No missed calls, no missed customers.

1:31Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. After twists and turns, late goals and stunning performances, did it really all hang on one moment? Chris, it's Darren. You better have a look at that, mate. On today's show, we'll discuss that huge VAR call in Arsenal's win against West Ham, ask whether it ends the title and relegation battles in the Premier League, and also talk about Liverpool, Chelsea, Brighton, Bournemouth, Brentford, the Scottish title race and loads, loads more. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Tottenham is Tom Allnup and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is with me.

2:12As usual, team, how are we? Good, Tom. What do you reckon from our Darren England impression?

2:16Gregor Robertson: Really good, very northern. Yeah, I did look it up, he's from Yorkshire. That is accurate. Former referees are northern. Thank you so much. Well, we're heading down a dangerous route here, given the conversation that we're about to have. Greg, are pumped for a show that should be all about the title race and what a thrilling season we've had, and is instead going to be dominated by VAR? Absolutely. Great. Well, let's set a couple of early parameters. It's a simple question. Foul or no foul? On David Raya in the 95th minute. Alison, you were there, so I'm going to start with you. Just foul or no foul?

2:44No foul. If I had been reffing in my local park, I would not have given it. Ever times journalists, they cannot do one word answers, ladies and gentlemen. Gregor? In isolation, yes. In isolation, yes. I think that might be the crux of the argument. Tom? Foul yes. Should have been given us a free kick. No. Excellent. I love that.

3:08Gregor Robertson: Foul. What VAR has done to us. Foul yes across the board. And by the way, I'm exactly the same. Foul yes, but I don't like it. And that's exactly the whole problem, isn't it? Because it's yes or foul. I said it wasn't. But we're all kind of, but you also kind of like, you can, no, I can't see it. I took from your answer that you could slightly see that it was. Of course I can see. Well, is this the moment we get into it? You're allowed to, you're allowed to give more than one a couple of words now. Am I? Fantastic. Thank you very much, Tom. Thank you for having me. No, no. Ah, ha, ha. No, there is, let's rewind to why VAR exists, clear and obvious errors, an injustice that They didn't want fans leaving a game knowing, because they could see it on their phones, that there'd been an infringement and it hadn't been noticed by the officials.

3:55A serious infringement. So they brought in, if there was a clear and obvious error that the referee for some reason had missed, not necessarily through incompetence, but because sometimes it's hard to see, because you've got eyes in the back of your head, that they could go to trained operators in a booth who would tell you, you've missed something there. It was not designed so that you get the referee to go to a monitor and watch the same action 17, 17 times. If I look at you, Gregor, for 17 separate times, I'll notice something I didn't notice the first time. And I might not like it. I've seen it so often I've gone off it.

4:34I thought your nose was quite nice. I don't like it anymore. It's not, it's not. Scandalous. It's not normal. This isn't what it was designed for, to stare and stare at something until you spot an infringement. And I don't know why he's watching the same thing 17 times, because if you watch different elements of what's happening in the Golemouth, you see the picture grows bigger. Yeah. That's probably why he's watching a 17 times. Different things happen. I'm going to let the guys come in now, because we've all, as I said, all had our versions of yes or no with context. Greg, are you bringing in your context now?

5:07In isolation, yes But we're not talking in isolation, are we? I think that's probably the point you're going to make

5:13Gregor Robertson: No, I mean The problem with this With any passage of play And particularly a corner And particularly corners this season Is that it is a collection of so many moving parts Like so many conflicts And tussles and tugs and everything That it all feeds into one outcome And would Pablo, who had Leandro Trossard, not even looking at the other way from the ball, from where the corner was taken, trying to grapple him, and actually an arm from Odegaard pulling round, so he had a man round his waist, would he have... Which was sending him in the direction of Davidre. Would he have thrown his arm out in that way?

5:56Gregor Robertson: Or is that kind of the act of someone trying to gain a bit of traction and trying to shake off the guy who's round his waist? We don't know. And, like, as Alison says, Declan Rice, like, arguably, like, Mavropanos was fouled by Myles Lewis-Gelly and Declan Rice. Yes, that was impressive. Two men tried to foul him. There were so many, like, so many kind of moving parts to it. And that kind of one moment encapsulated, for me, why Barre will never work. Because how can you have a consensus about the threshold of intervention when you do intervene? or even which foul you're intervening for. And the thing that's annoyed me a little bit in the aftermath of this and the sort of reaction to it is you hear all these people, there's a plethora of former referees now who have good jobs from analysing this.

6:49Gregor Robertson: Somehow saying that the Raya incident supersedes the rest. Show me the law of the game that says that. That's just a referee's interpretation. and actually that boils down to what football's laws have always been it's been one man's interpretation of the laws of the game and seeing how how they should influence the decision on the pitch yeah that's not that's what VAR has decimated it's no longer one man it's a VAR and you know the people in Stutley Park in the booth Stutley Park in the booth and then again the referee trying to look at an incident that it's just is vast in this instance it was vast and as i said the you know the original reason for for var was to spot clear and obvious error and this was not that tom your context i mean i have huge respect for the referees i'd say when i was watching it these referees yeah i do when i was watching it live i thought how on earth you know with this amount of pressure with everyone in the stadium watching but also the eyes of you know the Premier League world watching you know like for two human beings in that moment have to make that call like I know that we spend a lot of our time you know denigrating referees and denigrating VAR but I actually think fair play to both of them for coming up with a decision which I think probably by the letter of the law was correct and I think I'm probably on the same page as Gregor here because I just feel that in isolation I think it is a foul on David Ryder I think he is being impeded and he goes down because ultimately you He can't get his body to catch the ball.

8:23But I think when you go through that sort of six or seven second sequence through the cross and the grappling, you can basically pick out six or seven fouls all going on at once. And I think there are four or five of those are Arsenal, Odegaard, Rice, the front post you got Havertz and I think it's Susek are also kind of both in a kind of 50-50 grapple. There's basically fouls all over the box. I personally think you could look at that as a referee and say, there's fouls everywhere. Goal. That's why I think in a way, because I think in isolation it's a foul. Yeah. But do I think overall it should have been given as a free kick?

8:57That's where I have my doubt.

8:58Gregor Robertson: And I think that would be most people's instincts when they saw it in real time. Yeah. Like, I think anyone who says they thought it was a foul and before they saw at least one replay is probably an Arsenal fan or Mikel Arteta or they're lying. Yeah. I think when all of us watched that, we didn't immediately go, oof, that's going to be a foul or this is going to be called back. I think you had to see at least one replay and then a whole new world opened up before us. You can't ignore the broader context here and this doesn't necessarily inform anything towards the decision. But of course, West Ham fans will be absolutely fuming.

9:34One, because of the amount of fouls that are happening in the box. But two, because Arsenal have been getting away with this all season. And I think that's why it kind of sticks in the throat. Yeah, I think to your point, it's interesting, Alison, that the complaint about VAR is often and always about the time it takes. but weirdly I'm actually with Tom about the importance of this decision. I thought they'd be there longer. I thought they'd be there about 20 minutes. I mean, you're literally going, lads, the season is literally riding on this. When he sends him over to the monitor, he must have been thinking, God, I don't fancy this much.

10:03I actually think that we'd be in a different world. Say if he'd gone over and gone, oh yeah, there's an arm there. Yep. Done. I think we'd be sat here going, how can he make a decision that quick? The whole title was on the line. So I actually respect the time they took over it. In a weird way. And it's not that I'm saying with Tom, I slightly, it's the system is the problem.

10:23Gregor Robertson: Which sort of decimates the solution that many people put forward about having a time limit. Yeah. No chance. Yeah, yeah. Good luck. What was it like in the stadium, Alison? I was there. And what the most significant, maybe I'm just odd, but the significant thing to me seemed to be that the minute the goal went in, the ball went in, Arteta started to tap his arm and he kept doing it he kept on doing it letting everybody know the manager of Arsenal Football Club has seen an arm impeding his goalkeeper I think that Amazing eyesight if so you've got to say I don't think he did it immediately I mean you were at the game but when you looked saw this on the TV it looked like he first of all put his head in his hands because he saw Nuno celebrate then he turned round someone probably said to him make sure the referee make sure the referee can see you constantly And it's the job.

11:13It's part of your job. That is his job, isn't it? That's Sir Alex Ferguson going like that. It's part of his job to intimidate the referee or to try and convey something to the referee that's in your club's favour. I think that made it almost impossible for Chris Kavanagh to not give it in Arsenal's favour. Because I'm not denying there was an arm in front of David Rea. I just think it was either a penalty to West Ham, but the ball's gone over the line. It's a goal. and what do we think about this the conversation that has stemmed from this and martin samuel writing about it on the times website today and allison you mentioned it in your excellent match report on the times website as well gregor you've just touched on it before this is the bigger picture isn't it this is almost in some ways the most fitting of finales to this season of set pieces and grappling and decisions not being given but it came down to this moment and that actually the league leaders who have been so good at the dark arts in the league and in the in the penalty area have had a decision go their way in the very last minute you know what do we think about that Gregory because you've defended football's pivot towards focusing on set pieces and things Hamza our colleague even though he's on holiday I don't know whether you saw any of this very upset on Twitter last night you know seeing see look at this look what's happened set pieces of breaking football I don't which he said for a long time yeah what do you think about this being the kind of you know the conclusion the kind of finale to this season

12:37Gregor Robertson: It's very fitting It absolutely is And a lot of people made that point very well afterwards But I think the idea that set pieces And this meat wall and the six yard box Is somehow breaking football Or as Hamza has argued Which is totally his viewpoint That's fine That almost if you become really good at set plays It takes away from the need to play football In the way that we have known football to be played For many years before this I don't believe that I think that this has always happened to some degree. Yes, the dial has been turned, and the dial has been turned by Arsenal. About two years ago, Arsenal became really good at this.

13:16Gregor Robertson: They often started at the back post out of a line of sight and ran across the six-yard box. It's the same thing. Everyone ends up in the six-yard box. They have an in-swinging delivery, and they're big and strong, and they outpowered all the opposition. Everyone looked at one of the best teams in the country, a team who'd fallen short by very narrow margins in three seasons, and thought, we can do this. Other clubs were doing it a bit, Villa, Brentford, but now everyone does it. So yes, the dial has been turned. I just don't think people are looking for ways of fixing this. I don't think you need to do it.

13:48Gregor Robertson: I think you need to empower the referees. And that's difficult. VAR makes that difficult because the referees are the opposite. They're definitely not empowered by VAR. It takes away some of their power and their ability to think independently almost. Do you think... Sorry. Sorry, I just think the thing that has... The idea that you could leave the six-yard box empty or tweak the laws... This is an English problem as well. There's no other leagues in Europe who are really grappling with this to the same extent. So the idea that we can kind of, I don't know, lobby IFAB to change the laws to suit us when no one else wants it to happen is sort of in the clouds.

14:34Gregor Robertson: It's ridiculous. So I think a lot of the solutions being put forward are unnecessary. You empower the referees to blow the whistle. Alison? But in the aftermath, consistency was a big theme. Surely the people in the VAR booth should have to hand similar situations that have happened in the past couple of seasons, or at least since VAR existed. And then you have quick access to seeing Gabriel elbowing. I mean, it already took four minutes something seconds. People looking through a catalogue to see what he could match. No, but then you get AI involved. Oh, God, no. Because if humans are incapable...

15:17For anyone not watching on YouTube, Gregor Robertson's head is firmly in his hands. 15 minutes in. I'm extrapolating on an imperfect system, how you make it better. I don't want the imperfect system in the first place. But it is imperfect at the moment to rely on effectively two or three blokes, and it seems to be blokes, to make a decision when there is very... It didn't take journalists very long to put pictures out of Gabriel Elbow and... who was it?

15:45Gregor Robertson: When is this? Martinez. Martinez. Yeah, Villa. Yeah. Yeah, in January, I think it was Elbow. Clear Elbow in the head on the goalkeeper. Goal stands. In what universe can you say you want to then, having seen that allowed, do you want to allow a goal where the infringement is less obvious? But West Ham have benefited from it, by the way, as well. I mean, their winner against Tottenham, Karen Wilson has his arms out over Vicario, and a lot of Spurs fans are pointing out that they basically had, the goal was given and they got those three points, right? That's also a funny part of VAR, isn't it? Because that's the whole old-fashioned, it evens itself out over the season.

16:21You know, we brought in technology to eradicate any mistakes whatsoever and we're now still with technology going, oh, well, you got one go for you and got one go against you.

16:28Gregor Robertson: Does anyone think that VAR has improved consistency? Has it ended or diminished controversy? Has it improved the spectacle? The answer is no to all of those things. So it's... I said it before, I think it's doing enormous damage. Even as a way of deciding, for me, there's nothing worse now than what happened in this game in modern football. Because to see a game decided, a definitive moment decided by a referee staring at a monitor, pouring over slow motion replays 17 times or whatever, of an incident that, let's be honest, there's no real right or wrong answer to, is woeful. And for the Premier League as a spectacle, when you think about the Aguero moment, and that's the purest distillation of, the drama and the theatre and everything that football can create.

17:26Gregor Robertson: This is the polar opposite of that. It's awful. Well, it's taken, as you say, that is a big part of a lot of fans as well, neutral fans, talking about the joy of it, the kind of wow moment. Can I ask for all of you, you know, you sit in a lot of press boxes, you watch a lot of games a season. Tom, you're going to be at Tottenham tonight. Alison, you were there yesterday. When goals like that go in, what's your first thought reaction? Because, you know, Alison in the past, before VAR, when that goal goes in, you're thinking, crap, I've got to do an entire rewrite here. At least I know what I'm writing.

17:54But like, you know, are you waiting? When goals like this go in, are you going, that'll be checked? You know, is it taking away from your sense? I know you're not there as fans, but you're still there as viewers, right? Consumers. Yeah, and in truth, I think it's worth saying that our experience is completely different to the fans in that regard. And it's really noticeable when you go to a match now, not as a reporter, you realise how much the supporters are suffering. You know, because in the press box, we have televisions. we get to see replays almost immediately. So we're very much in the know as to what's been decided.

18:23As a supporter, you have none of that. So it's a completely different match-going experience to us in the press box and to people at home watching television, which is a fundamental flaw in the whole thing anyway. I mean, it is true, isn't it, that basically whenever a goal goes in now, you don't assume it's a goal until a couple of minutes later. I mean, I think you start writing and I watch the replay and I'm taking the notes of the goal because that's what you do, but you're always sort of thinking in this, Probably in a couple of seconds I'm just going to delete all this and it just becomes a VAR note.

18:51But there is a muttering in the press box. There's a goal and someone will be going, anything wrong with that? Yeah. Will that be going to VAR? What's happening there? There's an assumption that what you see isn't what you see. Yeah, which isn't. I'm not saying, oh, poor you guys. I'm saying it's fascinating that even for you guys, as you say, Tom, it's much harder for the match-going fan. But what it's worth on the set pieces, I agree with Gregor that I think the game will fix itself. One, I think Gregor's point is right. you empower the referees to make the decisions. But I also think football generally has always sort of self-evolved, you know, and I very much imagine that after this season, you know, it's very possible now we're going to see bigger goalkeepers, more commanding centre-halves, like defences that are suddenly more physical again, you know, full-backs that are tall because they can defend the back post, you know, so this idea we've had in the last few years where you get technical footballers, almost like central midfielders playing a full-back where they can pass the ball out and beat the press.

19:42Maybe suddenly we edge back towards kind of, you know, Steve Bruce and Neil Ruddock. Premier League's going to be like

19:46Gregor Robertson: the third division in the 90s. I can't wait. It may surprise us. It may be. What have Arsenal done differently in the last couple of weeks? They had a lot of short corners. Yeah. Because everyone expects them to pile into the six-yard box. They've started surprising teams and playing moves to get someone in the edge of the box. So are we in agreement that actually this, whilst it kind of sums up the end of this season, there's not a problem amongst us, we don't think? Don't change the rules of the game. I think we've seen the last 10, 20 years the more we change the rules, the worse it gets. Also, don't be self-absorbed enough to think that we can change the rules.

20:20Gregor Robertson: We can't. Yeah. We can't change the rules. It's not our decision. We don't rule world football. We have a big say in what happens in IFAB, but it's not the only say. I thought you were going to get rid of VAR, Gregor. Don't be quitting on me. I want to get rid of VAR. Like, I loathe it, Tom. I loathe it. Like, I was watching. I'll tell you where I watched this. I was on the way back from the Forest game Forest City Newcastle and I was getting on the train I was watching over the shoulder of a fan who was watching it on their phone and me and a lot of people were like I got back and watched the game later on and this was a train full of Forest fans who wanted the goal sorry they wanted the goal to be chopped off because that would have made them safe we were all watching and thinking what's going on no one had a clue what was going on and then I find myself just on the way home reading people either in articles or on social media or whatever saying that this somehow justifies the presence of technology in football and I find my blood boiling.

21:21Gregor Robertson: I think, how can you possibly think that? How can you think that that moment, because they think it was the right decision ultimately and it determined that Arsenal might well win the Premier League. How could you think that justifies VAR? like what it's done to the spectacle is enormous damage like I hate it. Although the one part of the technology that did work was the goal line right so I mean you know in that scenario let's say the linesman wasn't quick enough to get there and you know 10 years ago maybe that goal doesn't get given well we would all say that's a huge injustice right so so there is in my opinion there's room for technology it just has to be the black and white technology.

21:59Yeah yeah. Alison you were there coming back to my point at the very start of the show and for all of us do we think this has decided the title race then? Do we think it is Arsenal's title race now. They're still, Manchester City have got a game in the week, then they're still both got two games each. It's just, I can't, I can't really see Arsenal dropping. This was their potential banana skin and I don't see. I know, but even then, that's partly a separate thing and Arsenal fans, this is not a personal thing against you. I actually want you to win the league because it'd be something different that we've not seen for a long time.

22:26But I'm really upset with you guys. Why don't you just smash West Ham 3-0 and then we wouldn't even be talking about this. You've been playing so well recently. I was watching this game thinking, sack us back, here we go. and Ben White goes off, Arteta lobs his best player right back. I'm thinking, what are you doing? What are you doing? Get 2-0 up at half-time and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. So you think, Tom, that that sort of nerves will creep in? That game shows me it's all still on the table. It is all still on the table. I know it's my job as an editor to keep ramping things up.

22:56I think Arsenal camp knew this was the definitive game for them and that is why they were almost paralysed by it. But I think surely it's then kind of slightly self-fulfilling in that once they've had the doubts of this game, Burnley, all the cliches that come with it, they've got no pressure. No, no, but now they know that God wants them to win this game. That's putting an enormous amount of kind of prestige on the VAR officials. I mean, Gregor, Tom, title done?

23:24Gregor Robertson: It'd be truly amazing. I agree, this was the one. I mean, we spoke about it on Thursday that, you know, even Martin Samuel wasn't giving his team a hope I thought West Ham had a chance in this game and they did and they took it close but I think this was Arsenal's biggest challenge and I think they will get over the line now Tom I don't think so I honestly think this season has revealed to me more than ever that we're in such a hot take economy in football journalism now that every single match has to be a definitive moment this is the moment they won the title idiots like me asking questions all the time This is the game they got relegated.

24:02It's the same in the relegation battle. It's the same in the title race. How many times have we said we feel like this win was the win or this defeat was the defeat? And I don't know if it's because we have so much muscle memory of the Premier League era now that we're always reverting back to is this that moment that was that moment before? Or if it's because we're constantly on podcasts like this and people are putting out clips and so they need to have hot takes where it's like this is over, it's done, it's finished. But actually it's not finished. Leave that out of a clip. Leave that out. It's not finished.

24:28There are two more games and Arsenal have shown themselves very capable of slipping up to anybody. And City could also do that. I know we kind of want to make every single moment feel like it's the end of the whole thing, but it's not. There could be more twists. I really think there could be. I think it'll go to the final day. But Gregor and Alison, you don't think it'll get that far? I hope it does. I suspect it won't. And then, so leading on to the relegation battle, Tom, is it over or not? You're going to watch Tottenham against Leeds tonight. But Alison, this was a huge brogue for West Ham, wasn't it, in terms of the confidence as well.

24:59As well as being deprived of a great moment, great drama, they were deprived of a confidence-boosting last-minute equaliser, which would have done so much for their belief going into the next couple of games. They started tentatively. Arsenal started really well, actually. They looked much more comfortable on that. I know it's not literally twice as big as any other pitch, but it does feel like it, the London Stadium. They were enjoying the wide-open spaces. West Ham were doing very little to lay a glove on them. they were being quite deferential. They were the more nervous team. Then Ben White got injured.

25:34Declan Rice went to right back. From that moment on, even though he put Rice back in midfield for the second half, West Ham took control and were playing with authority and like the home team. And to be fair, not really like a team that might be going down, desperately needed. They were playing good football. Odegaard comes on. Suddenly you've got a grown-up on the pitch. who knows, seems to be immune to the emotion of it, sets up Trossard's goal. Trossard, I thought, was quite superb. Exactly what you mean. He's aggressive and immune to any sort of mood swings in the game. He was very, very good.

26:14He's been really good in the last few weeks, I feel. But Odegaard coming on, a bit of grown-up, scored the goal. Then Nuno brings on Callum Wilson. Probably, I don't know what's wrong with Callum Wilson. Why can't he play just three minutes longer than he is? I mean, it was a threat.

26:29Gregor Robertson: The shot that was blocked by Gabriel, I mean, that was a goal. I don't think Raya would have got that one. And Raya's save as well. That's the thing about this end, it kind of stops us talking about big moments. But the point is West Ham, which is what you're asking me about, played, apart from a nervous opening, played really, really well. And I really think Nuno's got them as a cohesive unit. there was faith there, there was belief, created opportunities. They don't look like a team, you know, like you look at a team and think, well, they're probably going and so who cares? They haven't really lit up the Premier League.

27:06They were pretty abysmal for the first half of the season, but since he's come in, I think he's taken a team that should have been on its knees and made them look really rather good enough to stay up, I would say.

27:18Gregor Robertson: They've been really good apart from like two games since January I think and I think we even underestimated how important the little bits of context were going to be in terms of who teams were playing and when so Spurs when they played Villa last week in between their two Europa League semifinals we knew that was going to be something but my god Villa were awful so that was and Spurs played their best game of the season and now they play Leeds on a Monday night after it's been decided that they're safe so what does that do to Leeds sort of psychology sometimes they're a bit liberated by that these teams even if you've been relegated you can be liberated it's a bit more freedom the weight's off you but I think if I was a West Ham fan I would rather Leeds United were playing playing to stay up still and they're not anymore so those two little details could be really really big for Spurs You're going to be there tonight I should just interrupt you by the way to say well done for not talking about Clip Economy when two weeks ago you were about the only bloke on this podcast on any podcast who said Tottenham would still stay up, so kudos for that.

28:22But you're going there tonight. What do you think? I mean, they haven't stayed up yet. Honestly, people may be listening to this after this game, but if anything this season, you can't trust this Tottenham team to do what they should do. So I don't think... I'm not ruling out West Ham at this point, even now. Well, to thoroughly embarrass you, what will happen tonight then? The people listening afterwards. Yeah, thanks, Alison, for asking the annoying question instead of me for once. I think when I think about Spurs, I think that Brentford result was the one. You know, I think for West Ham, and it was a closer game, clearly, than a 3-0 defeat.

28:56But at that point, Spurs have been playing after West Ham for the last two or three weeks. And I think every time West Ham had an opportunity to put more pressure on Spurs than they have. And I think their results have just kind of given... They went to Villa Park feeling like they had almost like a, not a free hit, but more kind of liberation, you know? And I think Alison's right, you know? Like, you don't watch this West Ham team and they don't look like a relegated team. They've looked organised for a long time. The one asterisk I put there I don't think they've won enough. They're picking up a lot of draws.

29:22Been hard to beat. They're organised, but haven't quite picked up enough victories. And that's been the thing at the bottom. You suddenly see Forrest and Leeds pulling away because they picked up some really important wins. So, yeah, I still think it's going to be tight, but it looks like it's really in Spurs' hands now. Yeah, it's not over. You can read Tom's match report on the Times website later on. Just quickly, Gregor wanted to talk about Aston Villa making it to the Europa League final. We mentioned it on Thursday's show. You headed up to watch that game against Nottingham Forest. And also Crystal Palace making it to the Europa Conference League final.

29:52Three English teams in the three finals of European competitions. Villa and Palace both drawing at the weekend, of course. This was a big night for Aston Villa. And ladies and gentlemen, timing for how quickly he mentions a certain big-arsed Scotsman. Gregor, take it away.

30:09Gregor Robertson: Shall I just start singing the song? We've got McGinn. Yeah, there he goes. I heard this already. We were upstairs in the waiting room. What do we call it? The green room. Greg has already told me about John McGinn for about 20 minutes. The man's special. Fade out, Neil. He's just got this force of personality that lifts everyone around them, lifts the stadium. You saw the two team sheets before kick-off. Morgan Gibbs-White, their Forest captain and talisman, not fit because of that gruesome head injury. Huge blow. John McGinn's back after missing the weekend game against Spurs. Like, they were 1-0 up.

30:46Gregor Robertson: That's not an exaggeration. it was like a huge huge boost and a huge blow for Forrest and then you saw the atmosphere for the game and he was a big part of it just turning over possession and driving them forward and Villa were outstanding like as much as Forrest were depleted and you know I think it just was one game too far for them they were they were missing like eight first team players Villa were absolutely outstanding and McGinn was a huge part of that and I tried to think of I had this conversation earlier with one of the editors I tried to think of parallels he's a bit like Saka is for Arsenal he's clearly not as talented but he's as important he's as much of a sort of a buoyant sort of figure for that team and for that club but there's a bit of like Gaza about him too because he's got the pranks and the sort of it's not destructive or anything they're not self-destructive but he's got that kind of that sort of comedic value as well.

31:45Gregor Robertson: And, you know, as much as I gush about him, go to Villa Park. Like, it's nothing compared to what Villa fans think. I think if he lifts this trophy and, like, scores a goal in the final, there'll be a statue of John McGinn outside Villa Park one day. He's like... Gregor will be building. He's their most important player for a decade. Anyone want to start the GoFundMe for Gregor Robertson Scotland shirt for the World Cup? Do get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Just quickly on Forrest Gregor, you were there, as you mentioned, at their draw with Newcastle. as much as Thursday night was disappointing safe in the Premier League and a semi-final of the Europa League pretty good from where the positions they had been in earlier in the season yeah I mean Pereira did a it's done a remarkable job really and a lot of it has been about that buys him until at least November I don't know buys him I don't know until like June yeah yeah like what was it 10 games unbeaten before the Villa game they'd been in a great run and you know You think back to the Chelsea game where he made eight changes, I think, and still swept them aside.

32:46Gregor Robertson: Tom's right. You've got to realise what it actually has taken for Leeds and Forest, the results they had to string together to pull away to safety. Forest smashed Burnley, Sunderland and Chelsea, like three, four and five goals in each game, I think it was, in consecutive games. No one saw that coming. And only that got them to safety. I mean the game at the weekend was really dire for about 65 minutes until Newcastle threw on a few subs. Newcastle you just get the impression they just want to get to the end of the season without too much or any more damage being reflected on them. They got that win against Brighton didn't they?

33:23And then it was back this time, oh God it's a bit hard watch.

33:27Gregor Robertson: And then Elliot Anderson kind of came up with another moment. What a player he's been this season and what a player I think he'll be, what a hugely important player I think he'll be for England this summer because if he's fed, drove forward and got that goal, he's played a lot of football. The Pereira situation is interesting, I think, because I sort of think Nuno is in a similar category. How long do you stick with the guy who you got in to kind of keep you up? Because I also think with Nuno, we're praising him now for what a good job he's done at West Ham, and I think he has in that context.

33:56Do I think West Ham fans in the Championship are going to want to play Nuno-style football? I'm not sure. Do Forest fans in sunny September want to play Pereira football at Forest? I don't know. It's the Michael Carrick question, isn't it? Almost like, you know, you've kind of, they've done, well, Nuno might not do the job he was brought in to do, but largely most people think he's doing a good effort at it based on Alisson and lots of other people's assessment. But as you say, football is about big picture planning and things like that. You might have a lot of managers who've done a pretty good job and maybe don't get to stay there much longer.

34:26Fans and owners, I think, are a lot more ambitious and optimistic in September and October than they are in March and April. Yeah, they could all go for the Crystal Palace job, of course, Oliver Glasner leaving at the end of the season. And Alison, just very quickly, one of the more remarkable, quietly remarkable storylines of this season, isn't it, Oliver Glasner? I mean, it felt like at one stage he was days away from just walking away from it all, not happy with the situation at Palace, but has stayed and has got them to another final. He might be two trophies in two seasons at Crystal Palace.

34:53We know quite a lot of Palace fans who work on the Times desk, they can't believe it. They're off to a European final. He's broken the rules. He's broken the rules of how you run a football club or any organisation. He said he was leaving, but not in a nice, romantic way, in quite an angry way. He didn't like transfer policy, didn't like the way he was told about transfer policy, so he's had enough. Crystal Palace thought about, well, this is going to be a car crash, so let's get rid of him now rather than have him. They reflected on it and decided actually, Oliver Glasner's done miracles already.

35:27Let's trust him to see the season out. There was a short period where the players, he felt were a bit confused by it, were they going to play for him or not. He's managed to get that dressing room completely united. It's like last season all over again on the FA Cup run. To be a manager where everyone knows he's leaving and was unhappy and yet he's managed to instill this camaraderie and togetherness and he will leave that club with Europa League football, which they should have had in the first place after they won the FA Cup. As you say, three trophies. phenomenal achievement especially for someone who wasn't very happy with the way the club was being run it breaks the rules of how you're supposed to organise things one of them really I mean Oliver Glasner as well and I'm thinking about Andoni Iriolo we're going to talk about Bournemouth in the second half of the show one of them's got to do the Wolf of Wall Street haven't they?

36:17I'm not leaving in modern football you know announcement videos and things someone has to please Andoni Oliver one of you has to do that it's too good an opportunity to miss isn't it? very very exciting news for Crystal Palace. Though, as we are going to be having our SPL update after the break, let's have a Scotland-themed quiz question. Arsenal are well-placed for a first league triumph for 22 years, but how many years since Hearts, the current Scottish league leaders, were last named champions? Find out after the break.

36:56Active Campaign is the marketing automation platform built for big swings and big dreams with intelligent suggestions powered by AI and your data. Generate ideas in seconds, import your brand, and create full campaigns with simple prompts. Set personalized messages backed by real-time feedback, smart segmentation, and effortless reporting that tracks every win. Let's redefine what's possible together. Get started for free at ActiveCampaign.com. Business is booming, But you know what really helped? Zero. The accounting platform for small businesses. I used to think unpaid bills were just part of it.

37:36Ugh. But batch payments? Wow.

37:39Gregor Robertson: Automated accounts payable? Even better. All in one place? That's a big one. And I can keep track from my phone while I get the job done. No bills in sight. What a life. Do right by yourself and your business. And search XERO for your free trial. Conditions apply. Most people don't realize how much of their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions pulling details about you from public records and the internet, then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers.

38:16It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where Aura comes in. Aura actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But Aura goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to$5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 US-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or just a VPN. Aura gives you all of it together at the same price competitors charge for just one service.

38:57Start your free trial today at aura.com slash safety. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash safety.

39:11Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Tom Allnut, Gregor Robson and Alison Rudd with me. and I'm delighted to say, thank goodness, it was Gregor Robertson who immediately got the answer to the quiz question, which was... 66 years. 66 years since Hearts were last named champions in Scotland. Gregor, it's that time again. Listener Cammie has been in the comments again, Gregor, on a recent show saying, where's the Scotland update? And I had to point out, Cammie, it's right here after the break. It's always here. Don't worry. Just for you.

39:41Gregor, it's well exciting, isn't it?

39:44Gregor Robertson: Oh, my God. Oh, my gosh. Goodness, yes. Hearts dropped points at Motherwell. One all draw on Saturday and Celtic beat Rangers pretty convincingly in the old firm on Sunday. Worldly of an overhead kick by Maeda in particular. A special category of overhead kick where you set up yourself for an overhead kick, I think. When you chip it up yourself and score from an improbable angle, I think that's a whole different realm of overhead kick, I think. Indeed. I also wonder as well in this modern age of reactions and stuff, did you note one of his teammates, I think maybe it was Engels, I couldn't quite see the shirt number on the back.

40:19When you score a Worldies, someone has to go, don't they? Someone has to do that and stand still. I think they do it in training, don't they? Like, whichever one of you is in the back four, someone has to do it. Oh my God. Or the Zidane, you know. Anyway, sorry, I'm just detracting from the exciting Scottish title. It was a great goal, yeah.

40:39Gregor Robertson: I mean, Martin O 'Neill was asked to draw parallels between a famous Henrik Larsson over a kick in the old form as well. and he said it was right up there and he actually said he was going to take him out that night as well to celebrate but I'm not sure that happened. But massive, massive night on Wednesday. So line it up for everyone. If you're just coming around to the Scottish title race and if you're a bit upset that maybe you think the Premier League title race is over even though me and Tom are saying it's not, Scotland is where it's at. That's where the party's at. So for listeners, games on Wednesday, games at the weekend and that's it.

41:13Gregor Robertson: Yes. one point Hearts with a one point lead two games to go Hearts on Wednesday play Falkirk at Tyne Castle which they should win they should in theory yeah because of the top six split you're always playing against teams who've had a decent season and Falkirk fall into that category and Celtic have to go to Motherwell which is the game Hearts have just dropped points at so once you come out of that we'll see how the land lies obviously Hearts could in theory win the league if Celtic lose and they win. But the likelihood is we're going to a final day showdown at Celtic Park between Celtic and Harps to decide the title.

41:52The only problem is that John McGinn's not involved.

41:55Gregor Robertson: I know, and he could have been if Celtic had stumped up 3 million all those years ago. Anyway, yeah, like, it's possible it's decided on Wednesday, but the prospect of a showdown on the final day is like mouthwater and stuff. What a season, what a title race. I mean, the Hearts will just hope that they still have hold on an advantage, but it does feel like Celtic are kind of getting up ahead of steam at their kind of final moment, and the power of having 60 ,000 fans possibly behind them as well will make it, yeah, a challenge for them, but yeah, tantalising. This is maybe a very too difficult a question, but mentioned there with the quiz question, 66 years since Hearts, what would it be comparable to in the Premier League?

42:40What level are people looking at if you were picking a team to win the league? Are we talking about an Aston Villa or a Tottenham? Yeah, that's a good show.

42:48Gregor Robertson: No, I would have said Aston Villa because it's different in Scotland. You've got two Behemoths and then probably Aberdeen and then Hearts and Hibs. And there's a bit of a hierarchy that's been there for a long, long time. And Hearts have been a force back in the days. And they've always been one of Scotland's biggest clubs. So it kind of is a bit like an Aston Villa. they have always been one of the biggest clubs in England and they have a great history but they haven't won anything for a long long time I think 30 years since they won the League Cup 44 maybe I think since they last won a trophy in Europe and I don't even know the last time they won the title so that would be a good kind of good comparison but it's even it's even it's also a different landscape because of the fact that no one since Aberdeen under Sir Alex Fergus has broken the old firm duopoly.

43:41How does that affect the mindset going into the last two games? Does it feel like they are the team who, not pressure off, but they're the ones who are kind of, you know, high flying, had a brilliant season, just go for it? Or is it at this point the nerves kind of settle in? I think it felt like that

43:53Gregor Robertson: until a couple of weeks ago. And now the pressure's really on. And they've handled that brilliantly. They've gone behind so many times, scored so many late goals. They could have had a penalty in this. There was a kind of questionable one that VAR didn't intervene in. but the pressure's really on now and Celtic have been here before and it's going to be fascinating to see if they can get over the line Alison, Gregor is on hosting duties on Thursday make sure you ask him about for a Scotland update on Thursday's show after Wednesday night games because we're all very exciting about a thrilling finish to the Scottish football season speaking of thrilling finishes congratulations to Rochdale on achieving promotion back to the Football League at the second attempt this season as many of you know that incredible final day against York and it carried on didn't it Gregor a 97th minute equaliser at Wembley to deny Boreham Wood and then they won it on penalties I mean unlucky for Boreham Wood but it's only fair Rochdale 106 points probably justice was done in terms of the two teams who got promoted Yeah and the manager made that point afterwards Jermaine McNulty saying you know how can this go on how can we have you know accumulated 106 points and there's been a string of seasons now where teams have got to high 90s or into the 100s because there's only one automatic promotion place they've been thrown into the lottery of the playoffs so there's a campaign now a three up campaign that's been kind of fought quite vigorously for the last year and it was really good to see him in that moment where he could just be kind of focused on Rochdale and them talking about the wider landscape and saying that something has to be done about this yeah really interesting less thrilling though the Football League playoffs Gregor six games six goals two nil nils both in the championship a complete embarrassment for me had my words committed to the holy grail the Times print pages where I said Gregor that I did not see Middlesbrough Southampton's first leg conforming to the normal stale stodginess several colleagues have pointed out that it did indeed finish nil nil because of the second legs this week me and Gregor will be back with an EFL extra show after the second legs and once we know who are in those playoff finals there's only one one football show out there only one football podcast that could pivot so seamlessly from the football league and non-league to Real Madrid and it's this one because now I want to talk to Tom Allnott about the remarkable situation with one of the biggest clubs in the world.

46:09Losing yesterday to Barcelona, Marcus Rashford scoring a brilliant free kick, Barcelona La Liga champions. But what is going on at Real Madrid is absolutely fascinating off the pitch in terms of the players, all those egos looking like they might be colliding as Ian Hawkey's written about on the Times website and tantalisingly, the prospect of Jose Mourinho returning to the Bernabeu. Tom, make sense of it if you can. Yeah, just when you want someone to come in and just calm it all down. That's when he turned to Mourinho, you know. I think also as well, let's not forget that Abelho was kind of brought in because the whole idea was that Xabi Alonso earlier in the season was too hard on the players.

46:46Ultimately, he was trying to meddle in too much, interventionist. Let's get someone in who's just going to be nice to the players and let the players kind of do what they want, if you like, soft touch. Which is, would I be right in lazily summing up what a lot of the kind of big managers who've been successful have been perceived to have done in a very lazy sense? Yeah, I guess if we go back, we go with Zidane. Zidane, I remember, said, my job at Real Madrid is to keep people calm. And I always thought that was quite a good summary. And Ancelotti, we know, and even further back, Vinton Del Bosque as well.

47:14They're sort of soft-touch managers, in inverted commas, tend to do quite well at Real Madrid. But I mean, you look at it now and you think, oh, who would you want to sort of replace Abla in the summer? Someone who's got experience of Madrid, really good young coach, very much respected by players. You'd probably go for Xabi Alonso, right? I mean, that is probably the logical choice. And I think in a way, this meltdown, I think, puts that decision and Xabi Alonso's brief tenure very much in a slightly different light, you know, because it shows what he was having to deal with. I mean, people have probably read it, you know, and Ian's done a great piece about it, you know, but we basically got Chiumeni and Valverde kind of coming to blows.

47:48Apparently Valverde, even in training, was basically trying to take out Chiumeni like three or four times. You know, we got a World Cup coming up as well, you know, remember. Rudiger sort of slapped Carreras as well in the face. You've got Mbappe who's sort of on holiday with his girlfriend when he's injured and there's like a petition where about, I think it's like 25 million people have signed it saying that Mbappe should leave Real Madrid because he's not taking his job seriously. I suspect quite a few of those million are maybe not Real Madrid fans. But still, like, this thing is happening at Madrid where it's just a complete meltdown, basically, you know, and in all ways.

48:18And this is a side, let's not forget, who have on paper probably, you know, some of the best players in the world, Vinicius, you know, Bellingham, etc, etc, Mbappe. But we've now had, I think, three managers, Ancelotti, Arbeloa and Xabi Alonso, who basically have been unable to kind of create a serious team that has Vinicius, Mbappe and Bellingham in the same side. And that's going to be the big challenge for whoever comes next. And, you know, you can... Is that positionally or is that... I think both. About work rate? Is it about so much is mentioned, you know, loads of people resurfacing the famous clip that I think Gregor mentioned in relation to PSG.

48:53but in relation to Mbappe, Enrique saying, you know, you need to work for your team, you need to be a leader, you need to be more than the superstar, the Galatico, to use the old expression from 20 years ago. Well, and let's not forget the marker had on their back page, I think, before Mbappe joined. Like, you come here to win the Champions League. Mbappe is now at Real Madrid where they haven't won anything in two years and PSG are going to win the Champions League twice in a row without him. You know, so is that an Mbappe problem? I don't think completely, but I think it is part of it. And you know, the big thing here is Florentino Perez doesn't really believe in managers.

49:24He basically doesn't, he thinks that managers kind of get in the way. He thinks that coaches, ultimately the players are the ones who win the points and the managers mess everything up. And so it's no coincidence you look at like, you know, Florentino's, you know, he went to Zidane twice, went to Ancelotti twice. He may be going to go to Mourinho twice because he basically thinks the guys he can trust are the ones that he can rely on and your Xabi Alonzo's and your Pochettino's are sort of the ones who are going to make everything, you know, melt down. So, I mean, whether Mourinho can come in and kind of control this dressing room, whether he is that guy, don't know.

49:55But I mean, what we've seen Mourinho in recent years, he doesn't tend to calm things down. Quite remarkable, given everything that happened with Vinicius Jr. against Benfica, of course, and some of Jose Mourinho's quite unpleasant comments about him after the game, given the circumstances that surrounded that incident. Truly baffling. I mean, also managerially, in terms of records, Jose Mourinho doesn't seem to be anywhere near the kind of height. or, you know, in terms of lots of the talented young managers, you know, Andoni Arayola, would he not just... Real Madrid would never countenance that kind of a move, would they?

50:24No, they wouldn't. And I think in part that's kind of been shown by the managers who have been there and not done well. You know, look at Xavi Alonso, even going further back, so on at Rafa Benitez, you know, who was very much seen as a kind of tactical training ground coach, you know. Of course, all these things are kind of broad, sweet cliches, but I think... And for what it's worth, I think there's a grain of truth in it. I do think that Real Madrid is ultimately a slightly different club. I would put Manchester United perhaps in the same category. And that's why I wonder if someone like Carrick is the right choice long term.

50:52Because there are some clubs in football that sort of need slightly different skill sets. And I think Madrid is part of that. The problem with Mourinho is he doesn't tend to sort of settle things down. And I think at this point maybe Real Madrid needs someone who can kind of go in there. But it's difficult, isn't it? Because we're talking about people who can manage egos and manage a dressing room. And as I say, Arbelo was meant to be that kind of guy who would go in and smoothen everything over. And actually it's just kind of exploded. Yeah. And do you see any big names leaving? I know it's an impossible question to ask, but Chouameni, for example, being linked with Manchester United in various places.

51:25Real Madrid stars, when they're upset, are always linked with moves away. But you talk about Bellingham, Vinicius and Vape not being able to play in the same team. Do they countenance any of them leaving? I think that would seem like the club siding with the manager. and looking like we think that the players are at fault here. I fundamentally think that basically Real Madrid don't see the problem here as the players. And in a way, there are two parts to everything that's happened, all the fights and the fisticuffs. One, it happened. Two, that it's come out. I think the fact that it's come out is almost more important because it sort of shows that the club haven't got a control over what the players are sort of leaking to the press and things.

52:05And as a result, I think basically Florentina will think, well look we've got the best players in the world we need to get the manager who can get the best out of them Really interesting As Tom says you can read Ian Hawkey's excellent piece on the Times website Now I wanted to come back to the Premier League with a couple of broad ranging questions hopefully not too you know baity in terms of you know clippable things you know bigger discussions and debates because Saturday lunchtime saw Liverpool won Chelsea won a kind of really rubbish game I'm trying to think of a more eloquent word to describe it but not a very good game An example of two teams who've had very difficult seasons, lots of different reasons for that.

52:41But it just made me wonder about the position that they're both in now at the minute. You've got Arnazlott under continued pressure with performances like this, with the Anfield crowd kind of seemingly increasingly against him, which you don't often see. Do you, Alison, from a Liverpool crowd? Chelsea, as we've talked about at length, Grego, on recent shows, yes, they've got an FA Cup final. Whoop-de-doo, because let's be honest, there's not much else going for them. What do we think of the positions that both clubs are in? Is one of them in a drastically more difficult position than the other?

53:12Or should they both be kind of quite worried about the next six months in terms of how they approach? Because they're both teams who, in theory, I'm sure at some stage, I'm sure some of us would have put them in the top four at the start of the season. Some of us would have had at least Liverpool as favourites for the title. They're both going to finish well, well, well short of what their expectations are. So how do we look at both of them going forward? Do we think one's in a worse position than the other? It completely depends on the summer. I think right now they're in equally disappointing form and situations.

53:47I mean, I think Liverpool have had the worst season because of the death of Diogo Jota, which has had, you know, you can't really compare anything else to that. And we did all start the season thinking, I wonder what the impact of that will be. So that's a very separate issue. But in terms of what happens this summer, I think from that point, we will work out who's going to have the worst decade to come, actually. Now we're talking. Clip that up. Are Chelsea going to continue down this ineptitude route? Or do they appoint a manager who's an exceptionally good manager? We've just been talking about Real Madrid and how a manager who goes in there isn't going to be someone like Joraiola because he works with young players and drills them.

54:33His skill is in coaching. The set-up at Chelsea is you have a lot of young players who are ripe for that sort of role to be coached. But do the Chelsea owners recognise that their policy of buying young requires a manager who can deal with young players and get some sort of cohesive plan together? And allow the manager to do what he needs to do. And if the manager who's very good at coaching young players, I mean, Chelsea are a very slow, preponderous team, which is making it so illogical. You've got youth, therefore you've got pace. Why do you just stand around over the ball? Why don't you use that pace and youth to your advantage?

55:17So they need to bring in a manager who can get them working hard, get them pressing, get them running, get them being slicker with the passing. but that might require the manager saying I also need player X, Y and Z it doesn't look like the Chelsea board are the sort to say oh we agree with you you're a very good manager we can see why you might need that old head on you know to look after so unless they do that then Chelsea are going to go into a period of of a mess but similarly at Liverpool if they stick with slot you know you can tell the increasing numbers of Liverpool fans who are not quick to be negative about the club are starting to doubt whether Arnislot was a one...

55:59Is he a one-season wonder? Is he someone who can deal with problems and get them working? His post-match analysis this season has been utterly bizarre, I think. In what way? In terms of its negativity? He blames opponents for their defeat, as if they're not there to cause problems. It's very strange. Oh, they didn't play football like I thought they were going to play football. Have they had too many throw-ins? Work it out, Arnie. Yes, exactly. So if they're going to give Slott another season, which you could say is commendable, loyalty is a commendable thing. A lot of Liverpool fans would like Alonso in before he gets snapped up by somebody else.

56:40But anyway, it does rely on a good transfer window, trusting Slott to know what they need and trusting him to bring it all together. I think this season has sown doubts on whether he has that skill set to do it because there is something wrong with Liverpool at the moment on the pitch. There is this very strange thing that they can score, often a beautiful goal, and you know the Liverpool of the recent pass would have gone on to maybe win 4-0, 4-1. And they retreat. They retreat and look sort of scared of their own lead. Very odd behaviour. Definitely a nerve about it. Alisson summed it up nicely there, the kind of situation both sides are in.

57:22Just quickly, Tom, Gregor, which do you think one side is in a drastically worse state than the other?

57:28Gregor Robertson: Chelsea. Yeah. I think there's like, I don't know, a lot of people listening won't want to hear this, but there are extenuating circumstances with Liverpool. Some of them, you know, we've spoken about a lot. Diogo Jota, Nassala, Saga, losing Trent. Loads of injuries as well, yes. A lot of injuries. and just the change in dynamics from signing quite a lot of players for a lot of money and it remains to be seen how much of that was spent well. I have huge, huge doubts about both full backs going forward and there are other areas of the pitch that look woefully light like central defence. And Alison's absolutely right to outline the fact that this is a very surprisingly discontented place, Anfield.

58:14Gregor Robertson: clearly it's a big drop off but it's not something you see very often the kind of the boos that ring out when he makes a substitute or at the full time whistle after a 1-1 draw so Chelsea on the other hand the whole project is kind of teetering I think and we've spoken about that a lot I think the financial picture is something that will grow and grow as a story and how they kind of extricate themselves from having spent almost 2 billion now it keeps ticking up doesn't it We used to say a billion and then we said one and a half and now it's like 1.9 billion. We're getting close. So ridiculous amount of money and they've gone backwards and actually I think a lot of the players, some of the players, the marquee players if you want to call them that, are raising questions about their future at the club too.

58:59Gregor Robertson: So Chelsea are in a much worse state. I think on the pitch, Liverpool have got a lot of surgery to do, which is funny to say given the sum they had last summer. I actually think a year on you look at Salah and Van Dijk and Canate and they're sort of almost like the core players need to be, you know, recycled or evolved, you know. Whereas at Chelsea, I don't, I sort of think, I remind myself that it wasn't that long ago that this team looked like quite a coherent team under Maresca. And we were all kind of saying they look organised, they look good in big games, they're tactically well coached.

59:28So you think, to Alison's point, if they get the right manager choice right and then maybe do change tack, as the Blueco board have said, you think they could be on soon? Yeah, I think it's different problems. I think Chelsea have to basically find a manager who can work upwards with the board and also impress the players. And Liverpool have to find three or four players to bolster what is now a bit of a mess of a team. And those are two pretty steep but different challenges. Yeah, wanted to end with a little bit of vibes. We talked about VAR dominating the title race and feel like that was all a little bit negative and a bit down.

59:58And we just talked about two teams going through some struggles. Let's talk about three teams having amazing seasons. Bournemouth in sixth, Brighton in seventh, Brentford in eighth. Who has had the best season? And you can't say all three. Special prize for if you all pick one each. Tom? It's definitely one beginning with B. Great. Well done, Alison. Off to a good start. Tom, I'm going to start with you. Bournemouth, because they sold all their best players last summer. Again. You know? Like, they sold, I can't remember, Zabani and Hausson and Kirchhez and Semenyo mid-season, who was their top scorer and their best player and maybe is still their top scorer.

1:00:27Like, to sell that many good players to the best clubs in Europe and to still produce a season like they've produced, not just results, but also the way they've played, I think is massive hats off to the club and also to Ariella. Gregor?

1:00:41Gregor Robertson: You're allowed to say Bournemouth. It'll be determined by the final two games, ultimately. This is why this season's great. We're still fighting for who finishes sixth to get the tag of who's had the best season. You can make a great argument for any. And clearly if Bournemouth's finishing, actually that turns out to be a Champions League place, that's going to be an extraordinary story. I'd still lean for the same reason when we discussed manager of the year, I'd lean towards Brentford because of how much they've exceeded expectations. Again, how many players they lost, their entire coaching staff, the manager who'd been like their best in their history.

1:01:15Gregor Robertson: And they brought in the set-piece coach and he's amazed everyone. And I think turned the dial a bit as well in the way they play. And as I say, no one expected this. So for me at this moment in time, I would say Brentford, but whoever claims that place that could be a Champions League place. Well, for balance, I'll make a case for Brighton because neither Iriola nor Andries have been in danger of being sacked or had the crowd turn on you. But Herzl has been booed and it looked like he might not be able to forge a relationship with the fan base who liked the Deserby era and liked getting into Europe.

1:01:49And the feeling was they were going to drop off and not even make the Conference League.

1:01:54Gregor Robertson: You saw him being pushed towards the stands after this win at the weekend. And now they love him. Now they love him. They fall into him. New contracts. They're very pleased he's got a new contract. So I think it's one thing to have a fairytale that's sort of a straight line, if you like, because everyone's with you. But Herzler, I think he's had a lot of negativity around him. And to turn that around now and possibly be in with a shout of the Champions League is a phenomenal achievement. Can I say one thing? I think better to finish in the Europa League for these teams, because they can win it.

1:02:22Bournemouth could win the Europa League next season. Yeah. Brentford could go a long way. The Champions League, obviously, you have the bright lights. You get to play Bayern Munich and Paris Saint-Germain, of course. realistically probably these teams might get through but they're not going to go far. I think you're better off finishing the Europa League. You're saying the season's now going to have a real twist where teams are going to be going, oh no, hang on a minute, we don't want the Champions League. You can get a trophy the next season, right? You can actually win something, which I think is for these teams to kind of have a cherry on top of all the kind of smart club stuff actually is worth something.

1:02:51The one slightly negative to that is that be careful because in the Premier League, if you're playing Europe and you're, let's say, Bournemouth, you haven't got your Iola next season. you've got a squad that is thin and you get on a bad run the Premier League as it is right now is a very difficult division there are good teams all the way up and down you can quite suddenly find yourself in a relegation fight so enjoy the trophy but he might also be in a relegation battle but look at Bodo Glimt which is a lot smaller than any of those three clubs yeah absolutely and also begins with a B any worth a mention of Bodo Glimt to finish the show perfect thank you so much Alison Rudd Gregor Robertson and Tom Olnott thank you for joining me thank you too for listening we'll be back with the regular show on Thursday we'll see you then

1:03:59We'll see you next time. find what's possible together. Get started for free at ActiveCampaign.com.

1:04:29Do right by yourself and your business and search XERO for your free trial. Conditions apply.