How far will England and Scotland go?

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1:07Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. World Cup week is here, but we await the arrival of the real England after a limp and rather sweaty warm-up win against New Zealand. Scotland, on the other hand, are looking pretty in pink as they score four again in a win against Bolivia. And on today's show, we'll make some final predictions for the tournament as well. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the former Millwall, Marseille and Republic of Ireland striker Tony Cascarino and the former Nottingham Forest and Scotland under-21 defender turned football reporter Gregor Robertson is here.

1:40Two chaps, hello, welcome. Hi Tom. I was getting excited Gregor, I was like thinking the World Cup daily shows start in a few days but technically they're already here, they are already here. We've got today's show with you two and tomorrow we'll be putting out our live Times podcast that we did with listeners live here in the London offices. Tony, you were there for that one. That was a great night, wasn't it? Then on Wednesday, we're giving the Scotland lads another Scotland preview. You can tell they're excited, can't you? It's only because Gregor missed the first one and he was so upset. And then on Thursday, we'll start the regular show.

2:11So we are here, daily shows from today until the end of the World Cup. Will we cope? Will we last? That's the big question. Will I have a break? Scotland or us? Who will last longer, Tony? Me or Scotland? That's the big question. Who will have a breakdown first?

2:25Gregor Robertson: My man is on you, Tom. It could well be me. It could well be me. We've got loads and loads to discuss. We're going to talk about England in a second and some of the reaction to their game against New Zealand. But I wanted to start with the news late on Sunday that Denmark's Christian Eriksen collapsed on the pitch and lost consciousness. Briefly was the statement during Denmark's game against Ukraine. He's said to have walked off the field himself and is doing well. Expected to be discharged from hospital soon. That's the news we have on the Times website as we record this show on Monday. Obviously, Gregor, I think any football fan would have been quite troubled by this.

2:59We all remember the kind of European Championship game in 2021. I remember watching it and just being like, it would have been one of the most kind of upsetting football stories to have happened in recent memory. Sounds like this is not the similar case, but it's still, you know, we're all thinking of him, aren't we?

3:15Gregor Robertson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're right. your mind just went back to I think everyone who saw that remembers where they were and the feeling of shock and fear and you're right this was something that thankfully he was able to walk off the pitch afterwards but still just the same sort of imagery of the players surrounding Christian Erikson to kind of protect him from the glare of and the players that were there at both moments as well I found that quite tough to watch this time as well just think for a player his team mate who would have been on the pitch with him in 2021 you know it would have been really really struggling for them yeah there were players who were clearly very very very upset but as I say we're just really grateful that he was able to walk off the pitch this time and who knows what the future holds now I don't think we should really make any sort of any sweeping sort of you know ideas about that but yeah just really thankful that he's okay yeah he's a terrific player as well isn't he Tony you know just before we came on the show you were remembering and moments when you've seen him in the past in his career just lighting up a football pitch?

4:20Yeah, I was lucky enough to be in Dublin at the Aviva in 2017, just prior to the World Cup 2018. He scored that trick, 1-5-1. I weren't too happy with him that night, but he was superb. And Sam was. All through his career, he showed the ability. And what a great technical with football. But just adding to what Gregor, he's got a big decision to make. But luckily, the pacemaker worked as well, which is the big positive to come out, that he's actually got up, walked off the pitch. And only he knows and his family are going to know what he's doing from here on in.

4:51Gregor Robertson: I think it underlines as well how incredible a story it is as well. The fact that he returned with Brentford after eight months, eight months after that first incident, and earned a move to Manchester United because he was in such great form. And he's still playing in the Bundesliga now. Yeah, who knows what the future holds, but that was a remarkable story. Yeah, the Denmark team doctor putting out a statement on Monday morning just before we recorded this show saying he's spoken to Christian, he's doing well, he's with his family in good spirits, taking care of him. And of course, we all wish him well, as I'm sure all football fans do.

5:24And you can keep up to date with the latest on Christian Eriksen on The Times website. Probably kind of slightly linked to that is we've already seen over the weekend the impact that the kind of heat and humidity, we don't know whether that's directly linked to what happened to Christian Eriksen, of course. but you can't help but start to wonder the big part that's going to play at this World Cup already. We'd love to make sure we're talking about football all throughout this World Cup, but I think it is going to be a tournament where we're going to be talking about other factors as well. And that was definitely the case with England's game against New Zealand, wasn't it?

5:56The pace at which it was played, the amount of sweat pouring off some of these players. I mean, they've all had long seasons, understandably. I enjoyed some of the fan videos as well. I don't know if you saw them doing the rounds on social media this weekend of just England fans going, it's bloody hot, bloody hell in the stands. I mean, I felt for them as well. I'm a man who doesn't handle the heat really well. Well, it's weird, Tom, when you go outside and you literally are sweating and you've just walked 30 yards. I mean, I can remember that from Tampa and in New York. So, you know, was it like that in 94?

6:26Yeah, absolutely. Well, more so in Florida when we played Mexico. Right. I mean, I was injured and I'd missed one game and Jack Cholter told everybody to put on a cap. Don't get the sun, get to your head. And I didn't have one on because I wasn't playing. and he literally swore on me. He didn't have one on because he loves his hair. He didn't have one on because he didn't look cool enough. He swore on me. He went, get a bloody hat on you and so on and so on. I went, Jack, I'm not involved. I'm injured. And he went, I don't care. And then it was like that moment, all right, I'll put a cap on. But, yeah, you walk out the hotels and then you get to the ground and walk around.

6:58Jack wouldn't let anybody have more than five minutes in the sun, even for the guy to check the pitch, because it was so drunning, and especially in Florida. Yeah, and I mean, that is part of why we shouldn't be sat here. I made a slightly flippant intro, as I often do, Gregor. It's become my style, but a 1-0 win against New Zealand. We shouldn't be coming out and going, England, oh, no, they're not going to win it now type thing. Two different 11s in two halves for Thomas Tuchel. These next couple of days, and as Hamza said in a show with me last week, it's all about conditioning and making sure players are ready.

7:29We're going to come on to a piece Hamza's written in a minute, but that's what it's all about, isn't it? It's not about winning 5-0 or 6-0 at this stage.

7:36Gregor Robertson: No, I mean, whether you like it or not while everything you say is true they matter a little bit these friendlies matter a little bit in terms of public perception and people will go only beat New Zealand 1-0 and it wasn't the most exciting game and yes, they know about the conditions but that's still what people come away with. So you have got to balance these things I think I mean, clearly at this moment there's another friendly coming up against Costa Rica but you've got to balance the need to condition the players with trying to win the games and create a positive mood. I mean, we're going to come into Scotland and, yeah, I'm very positive now.

8:12Gregor Robertson: That's where it's coming from. I tried to tease him there and he's taken the bait big time there. Me and you are both trying to jump in before he gets there. But it's true. You need to try and engender some kind of positivity as well in these games, I think. Did you sense... OK, then we'll back to you on that then. Did you get anything? If you were an England fan, would you look at that? because I would say that probably England fans would be looking at it going, one of the positives was a 17-year-old who's not in the squad in Rio Gamoa. Yeah, this is part of the conundrum. I mean, there's things, you're never going to see Gerald Quonsa going to play it right back.

8:49Gregor Robertson: You're never going to, he played two completely different 11s. As you say, he played a 17-year-old giving his debut who's not even in the squad. And then everyone comes away saying, oh, we're so reliant on Harry Kane to get to go. We've been talking about that for decades or something. So like, yeah, there's not really, there wasn't that much to be learned from it. I personally think one of the things was you see Jude Bellingham on the pitch and you just see a bit more presence. You just see this guy who's going to try and get on the ball and make things happen. And we've always, there's a debate about whether he'll play.

9:18Gregor Robertson: And even Tuchel's comments afterwards were interesting. He says, I think we've got 14 or 15 people who I regard as starters. Jude's one of them and he knows that. And so did the other players. And it was interesting. and it's sort of another insight into why he picked the score he picked. He's like, then we've got players who are here to, you know, like make sure to maintain the standards and then we've got players who are fighting to get a position but they've got to be content with their position in the squad. So that kind of speaks to the score he picked. And I don't know, there's just something about seeing Bellingham ultimately on the field that made me think England will be better with him and the team.

9:55Gregor Robertson: Tony, any of the Gregor's points there? Yeah, no, look, adding on to that, you get two games, in a World Cup, max, if you're out of form. You know, I can remember Gianluca Vialli, two games. He was dropped for Scalacci. I got dropped after two games with Ireland. And so players have to be hitting the ground running. And Jude Bellingham and obviously Morgan Rodgers are vying for one position. I agree with you, but I think they get one game. I think whoever gets the first game... Yeah, it could be. They probably get 60 minutes, don't they? Yeah, it could be, Tom. But there are question marks. I mean, it's very hard because to assess what we witnessed at the weekend, and I'm watching the game and thinking, what did I learn?

10:36And straight away, you said the obvious, Rio and Gamora. I felt the – I didn't know why he did what he did with Oli Watkins. I felt, how would Oli feel about that? Because if you're going to play Oli, you're not going to play him on the right side of the forward line. So Kwanzaa coming in. And there was lots of – but you're going to get that. You're going to get the whole – you're basically seeing two teams. and then you're going to make the decision off that. I guarantee he's made all his decisions for the first game already and nothing was going to be judged on the New Zealand game, as in performance.

11:09And so you actually think going into Costa Rica, the final warm-up game, even if Jude Bellingham plays and scores two, if he's decided on Rodgers, it won't change his mind. No, I think only from my experience in World Cups and we've never had the squads that England have had.

11:24Gregor Robertson: That's an important point, yeah. I'm thinking about I'm going to talk about Scotland because there are things that are happening that will change Steve Clarke's mind England have too much talent actually someone could score a hat trick and there's a clamour for him to play and if he thinks someone else should be playing there's justification for it because you've got two players particularly in forward areas of enormous quality that is almost a toss of a coin I would stick to what I said on the team has already been decided for the Croatia game. And so you would go then, who do you think that is then?

11:59I think he'll go Morgan Rodgers. But again, that's an opinion. Who do you think on the left? Rashford or Gordon? No, I think, well, for me, it will be Gordon more than Rashford at the moment. But again, I don't know what his team, none of us actually know what it's going to be. What you're saying is, you're not saying that for you. He's already made up in his mind who it will be. who, you know, me trying to, you know, second guess on coin, because some of these decisions, Tom, coin flip decisions, where it's Morgan Rodgers and Wellington Bellum and it's a toss of a coin, and you can make the same thing with Rashford and Gordon.

12:33Right? There are other positions you won't be doing that.

12:36Gregor Robertson: Saka's playing over. Yeah, Saka's going to play on the right. Kane's obviously a given. The field's a given. There's like, I think probably central defenders are. Full backs are a little bit more up in there. So there's a few positions that we can speculate on, and I agree with Torino's. I wanted to ask you about full-backs as well, because it's kind of interesting going into this tournament. There was a bit of a like, well, Nico O 'Reilly's brilliant, he's going to play at left-back and gets the number three shirt and Rhys James will be playing at right-back. But Jed Spence creates the goal. It was interesting speaking to Hamza last week and on the preview shows, both the England one and the one that will be in the feed later this week, about why he's in there, not just for his pace, but that basically the goal, literally the goal he scored, checking back onto his right foot and hitting that cross in from the left-hand side.

13:17It made me slightly nervous, Tony, Tony about Gregor's complaints about England in previous tournaments about not having a left-footed player who sticks to that touchline. Because if both your left-backs are one Nico O 'Reilly who is a hugely talented player but who likes to kind of basically maraud wherever he's allowed to. And Jed Spence who's a right-footed left-back. Is that going to be a problem?

13:38Gregor Robertson: Well the reason I thought that was such a problem in the past is because he didn't play with an out-and-out winger. So he had played Phil Foden and he roamed if you think about it. And he had Trippier there so there was no one on the left. he got a right footed left back got the ball and looked left and there was no one there and if Foden was there he didn't want to be there so you don't have that problem this time you're going to play with either Gordon or Rashford and out and out with so it's less of an issue and Jed Spence is really athletic too so he's a slightly different profile the same is true of Leverimento if he was to play there so you think as long as the person in front of him sticks you don't think it matters if they're cutting inside and playing balls and cutting back onto their right footers less so for me in an ideal world it would be a left footer but I think less so if you have a wide player who wants to be there on the touchline.

14:22So Jed Spence is probably the quickest of all the full-backs. Tuchel thinks he's the quickest player in the whole squad. And I think that is the ultimate difference but I don't think he'll play. I don't think he'll start in the line-up.

14:33Gregor Robertson: I think one thing as well to say is that there'll be a lot, I think there'll be different teams, different selections for different opposition. We talk so much about the value of having Kyle Walker in the past because when you come up against that marquee player, if it's like a Vinicius or a Mbappe on the left. You'll kill Walker. The same kind of true of Spence. I mean, I listened to the England preview and Hamza was going, oh, Spence really loves defending. I think Tuchel said he loves defending. I like that too. Loves one-on-one defending. Yeah, and Hamza was a bit surprised. But I remember him in the kind of Super Cup game against PSG.

15:10And like, he's got that.

15:13Gregor Robertson: He can say, go on, take me on. Take me on, yeah. Try and beat me down the line. and I'll race you. He's not Kel Walker, but he's got a bit of that about him. And so I think having that option when you come up against a specific opponent is really valuable. Yeah, it's interesting talking about the full-backs. I wanted to bring in, mention in Hamza, of course, he'd be writing some brilliant analysis throughout the tournament. He already has done one of the more interesting and potentially worrying pieces for England fans on the Times website now. Headline, three England starters are in the red zone.

15:42If you've been regularly listening to this podcast all season, you'll have heard Hamza mentioned the red zone. It sounds as scary as it is. It's basically a statistical suggestion of how likely players are to maybe get injured depending on the workload that they've already put in. And the stats tell us that Nico O 'Reilly, Rhys James and Elliot Anderson are all already in that red zone before the World Cup even starts. So there's two of the full-backs, which is why Jed Spence might be really interesting. The Elliot Anderson's a worry as well, isn't it? That's a problem.

16:11Gregor Robertson: I think part of that also relates to a comparison to the previous season. and there's obviously some context to consider there Elliot Anderson has played European football this season for the first time really Rhys James didn't play any football because he was injured last season Nico Riley this is a breakthrough season so that doesn't take away the point but this is a kind of it has been it has been the biggest load that they've ever experienced and that's possibly going to be an issue but you know I read this piece on the way in today and I was thinking yeah that is that is sort of worry for England but you just wonder as well like how much that's going to be something where Tuchel thinks about the load and rotation and stuff and I think England will have the opportunity to do that in the group I think you'll cruise through the group I think you'll have the opportunity to make changes if you have to See I'd add on to that there are players that go into the red zone more often than others as well so if you're in the red zone for a long time over long periods of a season there is a bigger issue there now what we're talking about is three players that have probably gone into it.

17:18How quickly can they get out of the red zone? And then look, do you see what I mean? So it's a longer... So are you making the point then that Greg is saying that maybe we'll actually see, maybe we will see a bit more of Jed Spence in the group stage. Maybe we will see a bit more of Kobi Maynou and... Well, you might see less minutes of some of the players you've mentioned. Because Elliot Anderson maybe plays, maybe doesn't start every game. Maybe plays 60 minutes and then gets taken off. You know, that kind of thing. I would imagine that they absolutely are all over this, this type of, you know, data that's available, that they can go, we can definitely get an hour.

17:48He doesn't, he's not an issue if he goes an hour or a bit. I mean, it's incredible how we look at football now, isn't it? Because in our day, Gregor, wouldn't it, it was like if someone had told you that we're going in the red zone, we would be thinking you're going to get a fine. You know what I mean? You've done something seriously wrong. And now it's more, everything is so data-driven that you can use it to your advantage as well. Yeah, yeah, really interesting. In terms of like England, Do you think then in that midfield then, just to come back to Elliot Anderson, who would you be playing next to Declan Rice if you weren't playing Elliot Anderson?

18:19Say in the group stage, if you think England-Gregor can go into some of these matches as good as Croatia are in terms of their experience. I think Ghana have obviously got Anton Semenyo in there as well. But would you be playing Kobi Menuh, which I think then means Declan Rice, you have to say, sit in a bit? Or would you play Jordan Henderson and let Declan Rice go? Which way would you go? Kobi Menuh. Yeah?

18:40Gregor Robertson: Yeah. I don't necessarily agree with that I think both players have the attributes to be able to do the defensive side of the game and Kobe Meno clearly is someone who likes to go forward but I think he can do that he can be more disciplined and I think they could complement each other I just feel I think that if it goes the way you want it to go there will be an opportunity to bring players in and out but when it gets to the to the knockout stage and you really need everyone. I think the red zone issue will go out the window. It'll be on the eye test if you're looking at a player who's like wilting in the heat, he needs to come off.

19:20Gregor Robertson: But if he's your first choice player in midfield or whatever, you'll be starting the game. See, the opening game, if you look at the group and you'd go, who's our toughest opponent? And it would obviously be Croatia. Okay, Panama and Ghana. You go, okay, they're never givens, but you would know that the team you're opening up against, you'd feel like you'd absolutely go your strongest in your mind who you're thinking of playing. Because, again, being in that position, we played England our first game back in 1990 in Sardinia. And I could remember the feeling of Ireland-England and thinking this is our toughest game, even though we had the Netherlands in that group as well and Egypt.

20:01But having the really tough opponent, we went in 94, we went Italy in our first game. Again, it felt such a vital game because that on paper was our toughest game, which we won. And that maybe comes back to your point as well about these friendlies of setting the stall out. And that's the other thing England have got to contend with, isn't it? Johnny Northcroft made this point with Matt Lawton on the Big England Preview Show. Because the England game's so late, we're going to have had a whole raft of opening games, a whole raft of statement wins, a whole raft of, my God, they look good, a whole raft of, wow, have you seen them?

20:30Before England even turn up in the tournament. Scotland will have won 7-0. That's just going to get a nil. Scotland will have won 7-0 against Haiti. is what we're building up to in the second half of the show. Just wanted to finish the England analysis on today's show. There's plenty more to come in the feed, as I've mentioned already, with the live show, which you'll be getting tomorrow. Harry Kane. In terms of player load, in terms of player minutes, we know what a kind of obsessive player and goal scorer he is. Johnny Northcroft writing that maybe the only slight worry coming out of this New Zealand game is that if Harry Kane doesn't score, then England maybe don't score.

21:07we've got Ivan Tony on the bench which we see widely discussed as a kind of wild card, plan B option Ollie Watkins, Tony you've mentioned plays but is stuck out on the wing I mean never mind Elliot Anderson and Nico O 'Reilly if Harry Kane can't manage this World Cup in terms of the heat England are in big trouble aren't they? Well I'm super excited have you said to me before the tournament one of the main things you're really excited to watch or to see and mine was Harry Kane. Yeah. Because I'm thinking the season he's had in Bayern Munich, the move he did two years ago, how well he's done and he's coming into this tournament in super nick.

21:44Yeah. He's even saying it himself he's the best nick I've ever been in. So there's a lot of optimism coming from him. Tuchel doesn't even have to think about Harry Kane. He knows what he's getting and he knows that he can deliver and I think this is the best I've seen Kane you know, fitness wise going into a tournament.

22:01Gregor Robertson: Yeah, and he wasn't like that in the Euros. Even in 2019. And he still persevered. And then he would start to come off a bit earlier in games. It's great that he's coming in in this form and saying himself, I'm in the best nick I've ever been, basically. But none of this is new. I said a minute ago, like, England's reliance on Harry Kane has been that way for years and years and years. I know, but it's tournament time, Gregor. We know, we're already seeing it this weekend, a little drip of the, like, oh, Harry Kane drops a bit deep, isn't he? Maybe we should try. Nonsense. Honestly, you know like the brilliant food podcast Off Menu where if you mention an ingredient, you get kicked off the show.

22:39I honestly think maybe with our journalists, if anyone brings it up, off, you're gone. Let's just not have the Harry Kane Drops Too Deep debate. The guy is literally about to win the Ballon d 'Or. If he cannot be the star for England at this World Cup, then we've got a real problem. Loads and loads more England analysis to come, as I say, in the coming weeks. So we'll leave it there and we'll take a little break now. I had a quiz question on the previous show looking at the contenders with Tom Ulner and Paul Hurst. all about World Cup openings. So I've got another one for the chaps now to take us into the break.

23:07The 2006 World Cup in Germany opened with the host winning a thrilling game against who and by what score? Find out after the break.

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24:01Welcome back to the Game of the Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clarke and I've got a very, very confused Tony Cascarino and Gregor Robertson with me in the studio. I thought this was easy. This is one of my favourite... Well, you know the answer. ...opening games ever. Imagine him. Not even close. Not even close. We took 20 minutes for them between those two gaps. There's only a couple of minutes for a few adverts for you listeners. But the answer was 4-2 against Costa Rica. I'm sure some of you listeners out there would have been saying two goals for Paolo Wanchop and two for Miroslav Klose.

24:29Paolo Wanchop. A brilliant World Cup opening game. I hope it'll be as exciting on Thursday. Right. Here we go. Big intake of breath, Tony. It's been a big season. It's been a big old season. We've seen some remarkable things. We've got six weeks of a World Cup to come and listeners and viewers, I'm telling you, this is going to be the most remarkable thing ever. You're about to witness a confident Scott. Gregor Robertson, eight goals. I can't even know what I'm going. Eight goals in two warm-up games. Scotland not even looking like they're bothered with the heat. Scotland. Pink faces matching that beautiful pink away kit.

25:12You getting a bit giddy, mate?

25:14Gregor Robertson: A little bit, yeah. A little bit, a little bit, yeah. I honestly don't know what to say. Four and a half time as well Honestly and rightly so We should say I'm not being one of those annoying England fans I'm delighted for you I watched it and thought Listen A happy Gregor Robertson makes a happy game podcast But I mean It was great football as well Brilliant attacking Good finishing Players getting The other thing I would say from a neutral point of view and correct me if I'm wrong It does at least bode well that you're like getting players in and around the box So often in previous tournaments and games You had this kind of tactical plan that like basically ended up with Scott McTominay maybe getting in the box once every half, if you were lucky.

25:52Players out wide, players on the edge, players in the box. That gives you a chance.

25:57Gregor Robertson: Yeah, yeah. I mean, all the goals were like that. The first was like a really good move down the left. And as you say, we had a lot of players in the box and Shanklin had a good bit of movement just to hold off and edit. And another good passing move from the McTominay goal. Keeper was a bit questionable. And yeah, look, Bolivia were a bit questionable, you know, defensively. And then, my God, Ben Gannandoke as well. Yes, nice. He's the potential game changer. Because it doesn't matter who you're playing against. We've just spoken about pace and the value of it. And he is rapid. Yeah. And the way he ran in behind the left back for the third, it was searing pace and easy tapping for T.

26:39Gregor Robertson: Adams. And then the fourth, the speed with which he turned defence into attack. They were attacking and he got the ball on the half turn. He's gone. Head's gone, everyone. And he just surged through the middle of the pitch. And you're like, just keep going, keep going, keep going. It was impressive, though. It was good. It was good. But, Tony, on those strikers, and for both of you as well, like a goal for Shankland, coming off the back of a great season with Hearts. Che Adams getting two goals. Again, thinking back to some of those Euros and your woes during the tournament, going into it, having goal scorers who are scoring goals, is, again, it sounds incredibly simple.

27:11Sometimes the analysis is simple. Sometimes it's all about red zones with Hamza. but sometimes it's just about pace and having goal scorers on the pitch.

27:18Gregor Robertson: Yeah, I mean, look, Shanklin's had the season of his career, like, came within inches of winning the title with Hearts. Just earned a move to Rangers. He's, I think he's 30, maybe 31. He's entering the real prime a bit late in his career. And, like, he looks like a nailed-on starter. He's always been part of the support cast, supporting cast. And it's always been Lyndon Dykes or Che Adams on their own and no one around them. John McGinn sometimes in the vicinity. That's always been the problem. And in the last three games, we've played 4-4-2. Yeah. And played two strikers. Tony's talked about this for a while.

27:53Gregor Robertson: We're going to see two strikers up front. And the thing about both Adams and Shanklin is they can play as that one, the kind of number 10-2. They can do that. They can both. So they don't have to play out and out to up top. But I think Shanklin's so much better with players around them. And we saw the evidence of that in this game. And yes, having pace out wide with Gann and Doak, Ryan Christie even looked like him and Robertson had a decent relationship. But the question mark there is, where's John McGinn? I was going to say, that's the only worry for him, listeners, is that he's looking at this and he's talking his best mate out of the team.

28:27Gregor Robertson: Because McTominay is obviously going to play in the middle. Lewis Ferguson offers that other sort of different profile as someone who's a bit of a holding player in midfield. So, yeah, look, this is a good problem to have. But ultimately, you know, we talked about pre-season friendlies and what you can and can't learn. What we've learned in the last three friendlies, because the Ivory Coast game, Curacao and now Bolivia, is we might be best playing 4-4-2. So we have learned something. And it might not be, as I said before, it may not be that we play that against Brazil. It may not be that we play that against Morocco.

28:58Gregor Robertson: I think we'll go into the first game now playing 4-4-2 and trying to take the game to them. Well, I'm going to ask Gregor a question in a minute. But when you call in a striker who's had a great season like he has at heart, And yes, I know he's played games or caps. I had caps before with Scotland. But when he's come in and he's settled, I nicknamed him Snow. He settled so quickly. He is just walking to the squad and it feels like there's an air of difference about Scotland. I'm watching them in a previous game, New Zealand. Curacao. Curacao, sorry. Curacao. I'm getting carried away with England.

29:33And just his ability to just link up play and have Shea Adams around him. and it's absolutely fitted for Shea Adams as well. You know, he now knows that he's the foil for Shea Adams and that's the exciting thing for Scotland. Just before you ask Greg, I just wanted to ask, you know, obviously with Ireland at those two World Cups, you're going in as a team, you know, they've got two big games against Brazil and Morocco. They've got this big game being the first game. Yeah. How do they handle that pressure? You know, it was Gregor's only wish for 2026 was for Scotland to beat Haiti when we talked about the end of year show.

30:08So, like, as that group, they've had a good prep, they've scored some goals. Like, what will Steve Clarke be doing in the next couple of days just to be like, it's all right, like, lads, this is a big moment, this is a big game? Or does he buy into that and rev them up? Well, look, I would say, look, I don't want that contradicting myself. It's because we, I talked earlier about playing the best team that is in your group, or supposed best team. Scotland are starting with a team that are supposedly the worst side in their group. So they look at this game, as Gregor was alluding to, of how they're going to win, because they know that three points will probably qualify them.

30:44If it's a decent win, that will probably get them enough. And they might need just a draw, but they can still qualify with three points. So it's slightly different. So I think Steve Clarke's mindset is, we're going after Haiti, because we need to beat them to have a great chance of progressing in the tournament.

31:00Gregor Robertson: It's black and white. It's true. We've got to win that game. and ideally quite convincingly. So I actually don't think there's any decision to make. It's like, you've got to go for this. And that's what I'm really... Can I just ask you, Gregor, because Shanklin's been around for quite a while. Do you see him as a different player than he was five, six years ago? Because obviously the player he's become in recent years is a really traditional leader of the line, hold up the ball, bring people in. But he's actually improved so much also. Yeah, well, he has changed. He looks stronger. He looks kind of more physically, I don't know.

31:38Gregor Robertson: Like, he looks like he's a tougher proposition for centre-halves. He's always just had that knack in the box. He always, for Bob Folston, he gets an opportunity. He's a great finisher, a natural finisher. I think as well, like, a lot of this season, Hearts have played with two up front as well. Claudio Braga's been up there. And, like, I think he does benefit from that. See, that's one of my big points on that, is what Greg has just said there. Big centre-forwards have played so often on their own, but it's affected them as much as not having a partner. Because every, I say this so many times, every centre-forward I ever knew has always said to me, above go, do you want a partner or not?

32:15Every one of them, I want a partner.

32:16Gregor Robertson: Yeah. Because he's not like a, you know, he's not a road racer. He's not rapid. He's not, you know, he doesn't, he works really hard, but he's not someone who'll strike fear into defenders about running behind or anything like that. So it's difficult for him if he's isolated. But if there's players around him, he's canny. He's a wily fox in the box. Yeah, look at his beaming grin on his face. You want to see Gregor Robertson looking happier on this podcast than you have ever seen. He's had a whole season of stressing and straining against VAR and now he's got the belief for Scotland going into the opening.

32:51Tom, we know Gregor. We know when he gets up in the morning, looks in the mirror, smiles and gets out of the way. What I was going to say add on to all this talk is the one thing I hope Scotland don't become is because I've always associated Belgium has been the team that beat everybody up before the tournament I hope you don't become a Belgian Yeah Have all the big wins and then fall flat All the big wins and then turn up at a tournament Nothing I do think Scotland are going to go well though Do you know what I'll put that point to Johnny Northcroft and Michael Grant because we'll have to leave it there on the Scotland analysis because there's more to come.

33:26I'm excited to hear Michael Grant's reaction to Gregor's enthusiasm on that show. His age and experience might just calm you down a little bit knowing Michael. But yeah, we will see. That'll be in your game feed on Wednesday. Chaps, I wanted to just come back to just the broader World Cup. Thoughts and excitements. We did a brilliant show with Paul Hurst, Tom Olnutt and James Gearbrandt, looking at the contenders, looking at the dark horses. We all picked out some of the big teams. Some great analysis in there on some of the big names both in terms of teams and players at this tournament. Tony, any thoughts about some of the big names, about France, about Spain?

33:58Any thoughts as well about what you think the most interesting group is as well? Because I think there's some interesting contenders in there for that title, most interesting group. Yeah, well, to start with the interesting group, I think it's the group that Japan are in. Group F, yeah. Japan, Netherlands, Sweden, Tunisia. I'd agree with you. That is the proper group of death. That to me, it is. Because Tunisia might be seen as the weakest of the others, but there's some good sides there. And Japan have already shown that they can take on. Okay, they've been friendlies and they've been coming into the build-up to this World Cup, but if you watch them, they're a dangerous side.

34:31And the Netherlands as well. We didn't really get into them on the previous show as well, but I think they've got some good players in there. Always have had. They're a team that could, if they get it solid, they get it right. In terms of this World Cup then, and France so often picked out as contenders and favourites, an amazing attacking forward line, as I outlined on that preview show. They've got a back-up front four that would rival any teams in the tournament. But you're not fully convinced about the rest of the team in terms of their strength. Their midfield is nowhere near the quality of their forwards.

35:03Nowhere near. And you can make that point in the full-back areas as well. I look at their midfield, and only from what he's played, did they do, Sean, in recent games, is that whether it be Rabiot might play in there, Shurameni. Obviously, N 'Golo Kante is what a great player he's been. but is he still good enough to be in that? They've got Warren Zahir. Emery. Emery is a great player as well, but he can play. He can play. He might use him at full-back. He might do that. Not sure, but he might do that. Didier Deshawn. Quality, goals. The red herring in the whole of their team is Marcus Turan because everyone's assuming that it will be Mbappe or maybe even Mateta at Crystal Palace.

35:45He's got 19 goals with Inter last season. and I know from only watching Didier Dishon's teams for a long time he loves that hold of a line big target man Olivier Giroud yeah that Giroud that's Benzema Givac years gone by which obviously you know Emi Jaki had done and he was part of that Didier Dishon that time of having a leader of the line Mbappe might play I say might I think he more likely will play on the left for France but Elissé is great Elissé Dway is like how better a choice you've got there imagine having to choose between those two. Good luck to me. I mean, I could ask Greg. I mean, me and Gregor are both fans of both of them.

36:22So, who would you go with, Gregor? Valise and Dewey?

36:27Gregor Robertson: I think Alise, in a lot of the kind of build-ups being played as the number 10, hasn't he? And then Dewey, maybe Dewey or Barcalo on the left. I've got to say, I am so... I don't know whether it's just the kind of weird, stupid, you know, think I've got some affiliation to Michael Alise because I'm a fan of a team in a football league. But, like, I am so excited to see him at the World Cup. I hope he blows it. just rips it up it could be amazing to watch he seems to be one of the guaranteed starters too he's really Deshaun's really really taken a shine to him very very quickly and with good reason his career's just gone up remarkably in the last couple of years Gregor then thoughts on some of the things we picked out there any groups that you're particularly excited about watching other than Scotland's of course Europe as well I think Ecuador Germany Ivory Coast are always an interesting nation as well Curacao obviously one of the weaker ones but So Ecuador are really interesting.

37:18Gregor Robertson: They have been for a number of years. But a lot of the players who've, you know, they were dark horses when they won like youth competitions in the World Cup with like a really, really, really talented young group. And they've all kind of grown together and developed. Pierre Hencapi, Moises Caicedo, William Paco. They've got players who've won the Champions League, Premier League, Bundesliga, Liga, Club World Cup. and particularly in the defensive area. So I think they'll be really solid and hard to beat. And I think Germany have got to be among the favourites again as well. I think they've got one of the brightest coaches in Nagelsmann and a really talented squad as well.

38:02Gregor Robertson: So I think that's an interesting group. On the Ivory Coast, they beat France last week. In France. OK, it's a friendly, again, not looking too hard into it. but there were some African teams. I think Morocco will cause problems for many. Sorry, Greg, they are in your group. But I do think they were a dangerous side as well. Coming back to some of the points we made at the start with obviously the heat, humidity, weather conditions, the amount of games there are. Do we think this might be a World Cup of quite a few surprises that people will be waking up to updates from me and to this podcast and finding out that at two o 'clock in the morning something crazy happened?

38:36Yeah, that's definitely going to happen. I'm sure, I'm convinced of it. you know again watching Japan beat Germany in Qatar I was there live and I remember and actually watching the game and seeing Japan and going they're losing but they're going to beat these they're going to beat the Germans and you could literally watch it in you know normal time and think wow how good they are and watch the movement off the ball it was extraordinary there'll be there'll be some teams that really cause some big upsets I'm sure

39:03Gregor Robertson: I enjoyed reading David Moyes' column as well on the way into the day yeah he thinks a South American the American team will be likely to win because the tempo and the rhythm is going to be slower than we were used to. We have a very Premier League centric view and European centric view as well. But it's a completely different atmosphere and environment there. And the kind of style of football we're used to seeing and watching is maybe not going to be the football that will win the tournament. So that was an interesting... I really enjoyed that column as in the fact that he also, my bias, is on the number nines when he spoke about the fashion of number nines being back there.

39:41And I totally agree. There's loads of countries who have put in a big number nine. Well, that leads us on nicely then. I just wanted to ask a few quick-fire questions just to whet the appetite and get us excited. And the first one is around who might be the top scorer because I think there's some groups out there that maybe line up a potential complete left-field top scorer. But there's also some groups out there that could potentially give us the more kind of obvious candidates. I was wondering about Belgium in their group. They've got Egypt, Iran and New Zealand. The way Jeremy Jocku finished the season for Manchester City, he gets a hat-trick in one game, two in another.

40:15And you know when it's that tournament where sometimes there's a top scorer flying out there? Tony, I'll start with you then. Who do you think will be the top scorer in this tournament? Well, I only go for value because that's my sort of mindset. And I touched on somebody earlier that I think will play and I think Turan will play. And I saw him at 66-1 and I thought, the French striker that could start. I'm saying could because you just don't know. 66-1, a guy who's got 19 goals for Inter Milan. It's worth an each-way shout, isn't it? Absolutely, but look, the obvious candidates are Mbappe, Kane and others.

40:47I try to look a little bit away from the obvious because I'd be amazed if Kane doesn't get four-plus goals. Yeah, I think there's also a world in which Harry Kane plays basically every minute of every game for England and scores in every game. You could see him scoring one each in the opening games. hat-trick against Panama goes into the round of 16 as the top scorer. And going deep as well

41:05Gregor Robertson: in the competition. I think there's every chance it'll be Hurricane. You're not going for Lauren Shanklin then? No. I'd love it to be that. Can you, the two World Cups I played in, can you name the, I'm doing my quiz now, the 1990 top goal scorer? Italian. Scalacci. Scalacci. Right, OK. Didn't start the tournament. Didn't start the tournament. OK. 94. There's two, but I can only remember one of them because they were joined. Badger. No. Romariel? No. Go on. Strykov. Strykov, right. Bulgaria. Top goal scorer in 1994. They were the two World Cups that I was in. And, you know, you think, oh, but could it have been Baggio at that time?

41:45Or, you know, a great Brazilian striker, Romero, like, you know, that type. Interesting. So it might be a late bloomer. There is going to, there's always a... Well, there's more games, aren't there? That's the thing. Miroslav Klose, when he was top goal scorer, he came out, he came left field. He got into the German team and literally got goals from nowhere. Next question. How far will Scotland get? Last 16. Last 16? I'm going Scotland last 16. Wow! And as much as we've joked and give Gregor a bit of stick, I think I'm looking completely a team. I really like the fact they just look like a team.

42:19I don't like this. It's too much confidence. The head's gone in here, I'm telling you. Goodness me, Gregor. They're going to get out of their group, right? That's how I see it. then they've got to win one match from the 32 to get in the last six. I know I stress this all the time, listeners, and hopefully viewers as well, but we are regularly on YouTube at Timesport now. Go and have a look. Gregor Robertson's face right now looks like a kid at Christmas. I've never seen him so excited.

42:40Gregor Robertson: Gregor? Scotland? I don't know, it would be very Scotland to win, to beat Haiti conventionally and then not be one of the teams that go through in third place. But I'm going to be slightly bolder than that and say, yes, we'll get through for the first time to the knockout stage. I'm going to calm everything down and say you're not getting out of the group. I don't actually think that'll happen. I don't want it to happen, but I'm just going to calm everything down because otherwise this Scotland preview show that we're recording later is going to go completely off the rails. Where will England finish?

43:06How far will they get? I'm going quarterfinals. I started, the more and more this tournament progresses, the more I look into other teams. Who they can meet. That's where I start doing it. I've done the Times World Cup predictor on the website, which is really brilliant, really fun, really easy to use. And I started weeks ago getting there and meeting the big teams in the quarter-finals and going, they'll get past them, no bother. And I'm starting to think, nah. Tom, the only thing that's wrong with these predictors, they do get things wrong. Yes. So it can completely mess up everything. That's true, yeah.

43:36But it's my predictions, that's the thing. That's the only thing. But yeah, I've got quarter-finals. What do we think, England? I'd be surprised they didn't make that level. I'd be surprised. Further, though? Oh, very capable. Very capable.

43:47Gregor Robertson: The potential of Mexico at the Azteca is mouth-watering, but also a tough one. imagine how vivid the atmosphere in that game so if you get past that then yeah I think could possibly even be the semis interesting who's going to win it? I've sort of alluded to France all the way I'm not wanting them to win it obviously but I'm not going to go away from them I'm going to still stay on there I just I don't know the French are so often and I know it's often been said but they can implode from nowhere the French who was the first game when the last game imploded Senegal Senegal yeah they lost that 1-0 didn't they Senegal yeah I find it hard to look beyond France and Spain and like they have just match winners and people kind of overlooking Spain a little bit now they still like and you look at France have got the best forward line Portugal maybe got the best midfield Spain isn't far behind in any of these departments A little bit questionable in central defence, but I'll go for Spain.

44:59Yeah, I'm thinking as well about everything we've said about heat is about keeping the ball as well, which is where I think Portugal could have a chance when you have... Yeah, great midfield. Brilliant midfield. Keep hold of the ball, keep possession. I'm going to go for... I want Brazil to win it. I just think I've been watching and reading so many things about past World Cups. My nostalgia is at its absolute peak. and I just think Carlo Ancelotti managing a Brazil team packed with young stars and ageing stars having one last hurrah in that amazing yellow kit would just be an absolute

45:29Gregor Robertson: And there's less expectation than there has been in years gone by What about the Dark Horses? Is that on your list? Dark Horses? Dark Horses Well I've got them coming from Group F but I don't know which one it is Japan, Sweden, Netherlands I'm interested to see how good Norway are going to be I'm hoping really good I'm hoping that Erling Haaland gets a good tournament I'm not fully convinced that it will be. I don't know why. And I think Morocco could be really good. Sorry, Gregor. Dark Horses, anyone? Anyone picking one up? Morocco and Japan. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Japan are really, really good.

45:59Gregor Robertson: As I said before, I think Ecuador could be interesting. They've been this sort of Dark Horse figure for a while now, but they've grown up together. And there are a lot of really, really experienced, like top-level players in that squad. So I'd say Ecuador. Yeah, really interesting. God, I'm excited. I can't wait. and there's loads loads more to come as I say we've got shows every day of this week you'll be listening to this on Monday we've got shows on Tuesday Wednesday Thursday and that's when the Daily World Cup show The Digest begins that'll be out every morning you can listen to that while you're making a coffee I'll be catching you up on what's happened through the night and previewing what's to come on the next day we've got loads of brilliant articles to come on the Times website Tom Allnut writing about Cristiano Ronaldo Konstantin Ekner describing whether or not this Germany team is going to be good as Gregor predicts or whether they've got the strength to go all the way so make sure you've got your Times app at the ready.

46:47We'll leave it there. Tony Cascarino and Gregor Robinson, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. Stay with us for the rest of the World Cup preview shows. We'll be back very soon.