How good are Villa and who is the best midfielder in the world?

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times. So just how good is Morgan Rodgers? That's the question on the cover of the game supplement in the Times today, and it's the question we'll be trying to answer on this show. Has Rodgers had the best 2025 of any player in the Premier League? And are Villa really in title contention? There's loads more to debate on this show too, as David Moyes hails Declan Rice as the world's best midfielder, and Wolves fans start to worry that they might be worse than the Derby County side of 2007-8. We'll also discuss Tottenham, Liverpool, Newcastle, Chelsea, and Dominic Calvert-Lewin.

0:39and I'm Tom Clock and today I'm joined by the former football league legend Grego Robertson I started with you mixing it up Hey You can be a football league legend on here What's wrong with that? Okay Are you upset with that? No no I'll take it all day Okay We've got the former island legend Tony Cascarino and we've got the former pub drinking legend Tom Olnup I'll take it to be fair Yeah I'll take that Fresh from a long sesh yesterday I thought I'd give you the big build up like that you see that's what I was going for legends round the table Okay legends of drinking no hangover to speak of from Tom Ornett fantastic effort yeah a bit scratchy you know but he looks well on it doesn't he I mean you sound like you've got a hangover I'm not hungover that's the other thing yeah bit of Lurgy bit of Lincoln hangover from Saturday but yeah we've got to put him out of pressure today then haven't we see if he can deal with it Tom see if he can handle it it's about delivering isn't it when you're not your free-flowing best it's what the best podders do they get the result speak to Spurs reporter just thought I'd set it up like that as well Spursy and if you get through this Tony Cascarino's offered to buy you a Guinness after the show I think Tony just wants to go to the pub we just had the pre-show prep talking about Tom's day at the pub and Tony now is just gagging for a Guinness anyway so let's get this show out of the way so we can go to the pub let's start with that question that I intro'd on about Morgan Rogers Gregor you were there at Villa Park to watch another masterful display from the Aston Villa star as he beat Manchester United I'd say on his own he scored the two goals Villa were pretty good firstly just how good is Morgan Rodgers?

2:09I mean he's pretty good Tom He's great isn't he? He is bloody bloody good I know we've talked about this already this season but he just gets better and better doesn't he? Yeah I mean the the first goal was just a thing of beauty like the the ball out out wide from McGinn looked like it was well over hit and he just thrust a leg into the air into the sky to like kill the speed of it just kept it in on the line and then it was the way he kept his used his momentum like Jorah was there was there to face him up and some players would slow down a bit stand up the defender and then you'd think what am I going to do to beat him he just kept the speed of this movement going glided past them inside to create that space and then I don't know if anyone saw the ref cam these ref cams are quite good actually aren't they the view was brilliant of that goal and just it looks so effortless too it's just like it's the way he strikes the ball and you know there was a very different way he struck the ball against West Ham that kind of knuckleball thing but it's the same thing when he gets the ball at his feet and he's looking at goal there's just like a supreme confidence in the way he strikes the ball that he's going to he reminds me of Bale where Bale used to cut in obviously different foot but and then have that whip you know like that power and also there's the true strike you know you can see as soon as he hits it it's like there's certainty about it isn't there absolutely I mean in terms of Villa's performance as well pretty good on the whole deserved winners do you think?

3:30There wasn't much in it you know other than Rodgers Rodgers was the game changer the deciding factor United like Villa started really really well and they could have scored two or three in the first ten minutes and then United kind of got a got a foothold and although there were moments where like Ugarte was stationed in front of the back three if you look at their back three Shaw, Aidan Heaven and Lenny Yoro just shipped four goals against Bournemouth last week they needed to put someone in front of them and Ugarte like I think there was a stat United lost all of the last six games in which he'd started He's not a fan favourite But he put his foot in There were a few moments where he got caught And he saw his limitations on the ball But he did a job actually, I think The way that United flooded the centre of the pitch Which is where Villa always catalyzed those sweeping attacks They always try and build them from the centre and then spring And United on the whole blocked that avenue And then they created a few chances themselves Cunha was at the heart of most of the good work that they did should have scored that header in the second round should have scored, it could have equalised there wasn't much in it, I'd say for how depleted United are, obviously they lost Bruno Fernandes at half time they were without, I think, seven players before that, obviously players at AFCON Casemiro suspended both De Ligt and Maguire injured they're really down to the bare bones, they ended the game with a midfielder of Alessandro Martinez and 18 year old Jack Fletcher son of Darren making his debut his full debut so like they're down to the bare bones and having said all that they performed pretty well pretty admirably and Amram said he thought they were the better team I think that was you know a matter of judgement but there wasn't much in it probably first half Gregor first half Man United better team there wasn't much in it I don't think throughout there were spells like as I say Villa had that chance they had Aidan Heaven thwarted Olly Watkins twice in the first like eight minutes of two great blocks I think he was good he was good yeah yeah Rodgers had a little flick as well from the back went up to the corner and I think Ian Mattson flashed it back across golf Rodgers got a wee instinctive flick that almost ended up in the corner so they could have been in front but then United had chances Cunha Sesco Sesco's the kind of other question mark it's like when is he going to grasp the opportunity Well, it's a bit like the Isaac sort of position where he'd been injured during the course of the season, hasn't quite got going.

6:06His pre-season was interrupted because of transfer speculation. It wasn't only Manchester United were after him. Newcastle apparently were as well. You see that in his game. Now, Greg has said their instinct. Morgan Rodgers is playing on instinct. And that's a great place to be for a player who's not really having to think too much. It feels like everything is quite easy for him at the moment. I mean Jorreau made it easy for him because I think Jorreau didn't get close enough and didn't make it harder for him to score I did a piece a couple of weeks ago talking about Villa as a team and don't carry no superstars and I did actually say that maybe you could argue Morgan Rodgers might become that I actually don't think he's Villa's most important player really no I don't I think the goalkeeper is I think the goalkeeper is the goalkeeper pulls off a lot of big saves Martinet I mean he thought to be fair one of Cesco's best opening he just raced off his line and thought and that was one where I watched it and thought oh you've got to score and then you watch the replay again and go actually that's a great save from Martinez and that's why I think if Villa are going to have any chance of staying in this Premier League race Martinez is going to be really important to them I think also you've got to say that Ollie Watkins is going to have to up his game a bit because two years ago he carried Villa more than anybody I think this year he's found it a lot tougher I think he is looking better I think in this game he was making the kind of runs you'd expect What's he got now three Premier League goals Not enough If they're going to have a title charge and get really close to Arsenal or Man City he's going to have to get closer to 10 to 12 goals from here on in I feel but Villa are what I thought two weeks ago when I talked about they're just such a hard team to play against because they they make you earn everything you do in a football match and that's the strength We were talking earlier in the season about the lack of signings for Villa and how he thought the lack of freshness could be a problem.

8:00But I guess conversely now this is what happens when the results go well. You retrofit the narrative right. But it feels like they have such a good core group of players who have been together for so long. You think Concer and Watkins, McGinn they've got a really good group there. It's about leadership obviously but I just think they know each other so well and they just have such a really good unity in the group which I think is a massive part of it. A familiarity they have. you know Emery started his Villa career with a 3-1 against United in November 2022 6 of the start and 11 were playing in that game it's extraordinary when you actually you know this is all about Morgan Rogers but Emery as well as Emery he's taken largely the same core of players I did a few more that have been really important it's different stages think of Rashford and Asensio last season and then Rogers from the off but it's Emery it's what Emery has done to this group of players and the sort of improvement he's drawn out of them and the sort of the belief and the culture that he's created as well it's like it's always about even in the press conference afterwards he was like I wasn't happy with I wasn't happy with Morgan Rogers for most of the first half and even after he scored he took the goal like I wasn't happy Is that why he threw his coat in the air by the way?

9:18That was the least Unai Emery thing I've ever seen He put that down to adrenaline he said and then he tried to you know he laughed about it and then he straight away back to Serie A's face again. No, I wasn't happy with Morgan Rodgers until this moment. So he's just doing an incredible job. Incredible job. I mean, Rodgers as well, you forget, when Villa were bad in that first few games, he was really bad. Him and Watkins were struggling and he sort of embodies this whole transformation, doesn't he? Because I saw him early on against I think City or Spurs, I can't remember, and he was pretty poor.

9:49I mean, the transformation has been so quick. And I think it's also interesting with Rodgers in terms of England because I think I sort of feel like the debate between him versus Belliam has always been kind of framed around, well, Rodgers is a good team player. You know, he runs and he's part of the system and he's good for Kane and he's a good lad and he's a good tuchel man. You have the debate and then go, but Rodgers is good. But Rodgers is good. And when he's playing like this, you almost think, well, he's playing better than Belliam at the moment. In terms of football, he's playing better.

10:14It's not just about the running and the pressing and the teaminess. He's actually playing better too. He's elevating his status to that level. Yeah. That's what he's done this season already. You're always thinking, it was almost like Tuchel put him in just to see how good he could be or just to kind of fill a hole when there were players out injured and that was Foden that was Bellingham they were like but now he's on that level he's lifting himself to that level he used to do it consistently but he is on that level yeah this time last year this was exactly the same conversation about Bellingham what he was doing at Real Madrid if you look at Christmas period December scoring loads of goals you actually have to remind yourself if Bellingham's younger than Morgan.

10:55You know, most of us think, I always think like Morgan's going to be young. No, actually, Bellingham's still up 22 and he's 23, Morgan. So, look, he's got the world at his feet at the moment. He's brimming with confidence. He's taking shots and pops at goal from distances. And, you know, I just think it's really weird because you have very few games in your career where you actually feel like you're playing well. You've got loads of confidence and everything's working for you. I just think coming back to that question then about the year, the calendar year 2025 being the kind of year of Morgan Rodgers' emergence.

11:29I was looking at some of the stats for goals and assists. He ranks sixth in the Premier League behind Haaland, Salah, Boumo, Fernandes and Antoine Semenyu. He's got 19 goals and assists in the calendar year. He's second, interestingly, behind Bruno Fernandes for assists in the calendar year, which again suggests there's more to his game than other than these amazing shots as well. Decent for chances created as well. Well, his dribbling is what's interesting to me as well from some of the stats from Opta. They provided saying about a lot of his ability to carry the ball in a productive way when it comes to goal-ending carries and assist-ending carries, i.e.

12:02taking the ball a decent amount and then finishing with something substantial. He is second behind Leandro Trossard with eight. Trossard has nine. Semenyo, Salah, Justin Cliver, Anthony Alanga and Brian Mbumo as well. So there is, as well as us saying these amazing goals, this is an all-round creative star, isn't it? I mean, can you think of other people that have had as good a calendar year when you think of his breakthrough into the England set-up and how he's ending this year with everyone going, this guy is an elite-level superstar? My first, as soon as you're talking, obviously there's others, like Rice has had a great year.

12:34I think Dominic Shabozla is up there. Good shout, yeah, yeah. I think he's had an amazing year. You know, how well he's played for Liverpool this year. He's now the man at Liverpool. Yeah, absolutely. I would certainly, and he's only 25. he's still relatively very young he would be my first fault I think it's in terms of someone else who's elevated their status to such an extent as Elliot Anderson yes that's fair play it's been a transformative year for both of those players really they have put themselves on a level where it's like pretty much any elite team would look at them and think you could play in our team and the England team, this time last year if we said Elliot Anderson and Morgan Rodgers are going to start for England at the World Cup, we're sitting here now going yeah great shout, good Thomas Tuchel, smart guy last year we'd have been like what really?

13:18I mean on that theme you know Riley he's more of a recent one isn't he? Yes I mean right straight into left back really it's like he's got the he's the number one pick for that position I think Rodgers is the other thing to say he's basically playing on the left so like it's another I know you know England and what Tuchel is trying to do is all about the like direct running and dynamism he wants width he wants you know vertical football basically and he kind of Rodgers although he's got that he is a great athlete he is someone more who kind of drifts into pockets and he's done that against Arsenal didn't he you know sort of playing that left side and filled in holes you know on the left side of the forward line Dave Emery's tweaked it a bit Dillemans plays a way more advanced and McGinn's kind of on the right but they drift in they play really kind of quite narrow and the full backs often provide the width so it's he's versatile as well he can play in a lot of positions he can play anywhere across that kind of front line but it's going to be fascinating to see whether because he is it's been fine margin football for Villa I think out of the last 8 games they've won them all by a single goal they've conceded a goal obviously in 7 out of 8 of them he's basically single handedly won the games against Leeds against West Ham and now this game, scoring 2 goals in each that can't continue Is that your way of saying no they're not in the title race Tom, before I ask that final question No, because the thing is he is someone who you think this form could be sort of season defining like Gareth Bale at Tottenham yeah it's that good his impact could be that kind of profound there's also the things about could Watkins now step up and what that would add to them so you know share the load could I don't know could Harvey Elliott eventually make an impact in the team could Jadon Sancho eventually there are still you know there's some players who are interested well he made two big loan signings didn't he last January Yes, which took Lallana level.

15:15John, if it will be important. Yeah, so, you know, when Rashford came in. What excites me is, I mean, look, I was at the Villa and I loved it there. I was really gutted when I left the club. But what I would say, the West Midlands needs some club to make a statement, because you've seen it in East Midlands with Leicester and what they did in 16. But in general, the Midlands football has really suffered, hasn't it? North West has been dominant. You've had London clubs win things. I just think the Villa for the West Midlands, that sort of gives me a bit of I hope they keep going and I was involved in 1990 in their running you know we ended up coming second I joined when we were first it's big of you to always bring that up it's very you've said that many times and I know you always it's big of you to bring it up I'm saying it's very good of you because a lot of former players would be like no I'm never mentioning that that's a bad fact I got a lot you know I just love the way they approach the game I just feel like it's a real proper team and that's kept him, as Tom mentioned, the amount of players that have been there and played a part.

16:17Gregor's in all the numbers and you've added players that could they have a great second half of the season? Imagine if Villa players come in, like you said. You know, Sancho came in and done something, Harvey Elliott, and then Oli Watkins got going. They'd be like, well, Villa would have a chance. They'd just go for a trophy, you know? I mean, that's what I think. I don't think they're going to win the league. The numbers, most of the kind of data suggests they're slightly over-performing. I think the squad is probably not quite good enough. and I also just think maybe in a season where it's a bit of an off season you know those years where Napoli win the league or Atletico Madrid Leicester of course like you always need the giants to be sort of having a bit of an off one Arsenal and City are really good this season that's a problem for anyone who kind of wants to interrupt that so I don't see that but I think in Europe and like in the Cups like Emery's great in those tournaments we know that so like why not go for it like I think they should go and try and win a title Yeah exciting times Villa fans do get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk with thoughts on your team's hopes for the season and also listeners if you've got any other suggestions for the player of 2025 to rival Morgan Rodgers, sorry, do get in touch with me as well.

17:19It's time for another big debate, guys, courtesy of David Moyes hailing Declan Rice at the weekend as the best midfielder in the world, which is quite a claim. We all know David Moyes loves Declan Rice from their time together at West Ham, but it is a big statement. Paul Joyce has tackled the debate in the Times today. You can read that on the website later on. What do we think? I mean, it's not a terrible shout from David Moyes. Best midfielder in the world, Declan Rice. He's pretty good. I think he's got a bit of bias there, hasn't he? Because he had him at West Ham and sold him and said they didn't get enough money for him, even 105 million.

17:52I think Kai Sido's pretty much up there as well. I put him in there. I think he's a brilliant disruptor of the play. But the way Rice has come on in terms of that. Yeah, he's come on. And the perception of him. We're talking a lot about perception on this show with Rodgers and stuff. You know, a lot of people, Gregor, you were one of them talking about Rice's ability further up the pitch. A lot of people used to say, oh, he's a defensive midfielder, he's a defensive midfielder, and actually David Moyes, maybe it's just Scottish people who can spot a kind of box-to-box potential in Declan. I feel like there's been two leaps.

18:20I feel like that leap happened maybe a year ago, that everyone kind of, when he first went to Arsenal and he was sort of unleashed and you saw more of his attacking sort of abilities. Then there was his impact in the Champions League last season when obviously there was those goals against Real Madrid, but he just dominated most games he played in against Europe's elite. which was for the first time, really. So he's taken those strides. And in this season, you feel like it's just his consistency. And again, his dominance in most games and his impact. And it's always like, you know, there are more elegant players.

18:55We always have this conversation, in terms of Jude Bellingham as well. They're more elegant players. They're more technically sort of, you know, better technical footballers than both of those players. But in terms of impact on the game, how impactful you are, there are very few players more impactful than Declan Rice and it's the same is true of Jude Belling might be his best like I'd put those two players in kind of the same sort of bracket because what they do is they're like a force of nature so that's that's really important can I say those sort of like that too and then you then you come away from that a bit and you look at like Vitinha or I love Fabian Ruiz as well like they're very elegant footballers great passers great technical footballers yeah Pedri's the other one I was thinking yeah and even put I'd say Bruno Guimari's like could be in that category he could play for an elite team and he's he's kind of got a bit of both he's technically brilliant and he's got that kind of real sort of I don't know hunger and sort of animal instinct as well but also you see his little flick at the weekend where you know he does all the sort of defensive work but he got the ball and he just flicked it round these sort of kind of a line breaking pass that was like almost like this kind of dragging Cruyff it was unbelievable he's got great class as well could we add another one in there that he's still very young, but looks like he's got all that same elements of stature, stature, sight, is Lewis Miley.

20:15Could we be talking about him in two years' time being that tough a midfielder? Because he's got quality of being a big man, glides across the pitch, got a bit of an eye for a goal. I wouldn't be surprised if he's in Newcastle central midfield next season, all season. Well, if Greg is trying to tout Bruno Gumares to go somewhere else, then he might need him in midfield. I don't know. Yeah, definitely. Definitely a really good shout. Tom just your thoughts on we've talked about a lot of midfielders there I mean I think Rice is in the group you know I wouldn't probably put him in the kind of top three or four but I think he's probably in the top five to ten who's the top three then he's a contender who's the top three I think Pedri is the best I mean there's obviously different players you know I mean Pedri's a creator but I think he's the best technical midfielder in the world at the moment Pedri I mean I think all round I think Caicedo is right up there he's kind of like box to box kind of all round sort of midfielder I think he's and I would say Vittinia I saw Vittinia score a hat-trick for midfield about three weeks ago Vittinia's the one for me that I was like and none of us have said Roger no I was going to I was thinking just say it out of mind he's very like in this moment none of us have said Scott McTominay either Gregor he's a number 10 now Tom yeah basically a striker you can't include him in the midfield list well as I say listeners do get in touch with me tom.clock at thetimes.co.uk who is the best midfielder in the world if it's not Declan Rice a final debate for the first half of the show Anyone starting to think that Wolves might not beat Derby County's points tally of 11 from 2007-8, a 2-0 defeat at home to Brentford at the weekend?

21:45Some fairly desperate comments from Matt Doherty and the Wolves dressing room after this game. It sounds like it's kind of gone already, doesn't it, Gregor? I mean, Tony, you've been in dressing rooms as well, where you start to look, hear from the outside going, how do these guys turn it around? What do they do? I don't remember any team-mate or anything talking about us being cowardly in this press, though. that was a line in the sand that I don't think will go down well because there might be it's a get out of a jail for Matt Doherty is it as in his teammates will be looking at it well they might you're pointing the finger and cowardly someone might go and say who are you talking about which particular player or players are you have you got an issue because there's obviously clicks in the dressing room if you're losing a lot of games it's going to be isn't it Gregor it's going to be a lot of fractured groups in there and we're looking at them today and I'm thinking you've had the comments and Matt Doherty and there'll be people applauding him and saying, well, well, you know, has someone speak up about, you know, what this team's about?

22:44Rob Edwards has walked into a dressing room. He'd probably tell you years down the line it was in the worst place and couldn't believe how bad it was. It was even worse than what he thought because if they can play like they did against Arsenal and defend and fight for every ball and then a week later get beat home by Brentford and don't show particularly much, that's even a bigger criticism because most people say, well, If you did what you did against Arsenal, you'd probably get a result against Brentford. Well, you're right. That's the bright spark, isn't it? People start going, oh, they weren't lucky.

23:11They could have got a point against Arsenal. Arsenal, the lead is brilliant. And then, as you say, it's all undercut by not following it up at home. I'm not sure that Matt Doherty, going into training today, might get a few comments from other players. The thing is, as well, is he's in a different position to a lot of the players. He's got credit in the bank. He's been at the club over two spells. And, like, the good spell in his first time at the club before he went away to Spurs like there's a lot of players who are like either younger or new or you know he's talking about how you're going to be remembered at the club like he'll be remembered in a different way to them so I thought that was about unfair personally you know people say oh yeah it's great to hear a player come out and say that kind of thing I don't think you need to hear them criticising teammates publicly it's in what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas that's what I don't know yeah but in terms of the team then though because let's be honest for Wolves for maybe the last 18 months.

24:05I feel like on this podcast I've heard lots of you say, well, they've got decent players in there. They've got a good couple of midfielders. They're on two points, guys. It's December. It's nearly the turn of the year. It's looking really bleak. But they sold all the best players. You know what I mean? They sold, couldn't you? They sold, you know, I mean, a lot of the... Ain't nor a year. Yeah. I mean, they had a bad summer. They sold some really key players and they brought in a lot of punts, you know? I mean, they would say potential, but unproven players, you know, who haven't done it quickly enough.

24:30So they've been left really light in terms of the squad. It's that thing as well where I think there was the idea when Edwards came in that is it for this season but also maybe for next season when they go down and maybe he can be the guy that kind of brings them back up but I always think when a team gets into this kind of habit of losing, losing, losing every week it's very hard to click your fingers and say okay win a new division, new season and we suddenly start winning and be a promotion team you start worrying about what they're going to be about next year in the Championship as well in my opinion.

24:55If they've gone down with 10 points and they've set a new Premier League record and Derby County fans are finally cheering and shouting them on but I mean at the moment do we think have they got that in them they're better than that aren't they yeah yeah still a long way to go I mean and there have been some bright some green shoots should you shall we say small ones but they have been there the Arsenal performance wasn't bad again they're like even in this game the goals were just so easy like it's just moments where they're they're not good enough and particularly in their own penalty box and it just kills them and then the life drains away from them confidence you know the home crowd get on their backs it's a horrible place to play and now like you know there's talk about Strand Larson possibly moving on in January like it's that's kind of probably what Docherty was alluding to as well are people going to try and kind of jump ship now if that's the case then yeah it's going to be a long old season Worrying times for Wolves another good win for Brentford and Keith Andrews though loads more still to come in the second half of the show but it's time for a quick break so and when after the break we'll be discussing Liverpool's win at Tottenham but before that a question from Bill Edgar's latest column about that match what happened in this game for the first time in Premier League history involving Federico Chiesa, Emmanuel Frimpong, Alexander Izak and Colin Bradley find out after the break

26:30Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Tom Allnut, Tony Cascarino and Gregor Robertson with me. Back on the quiz answers, Gregor, by cheating as usual, by reading Bill Edgar's column before coming on the podcast. So you knew the answer, which was... How do you describe the first four-substitute chain in top flight history? Yeah, the first four-player substitute chain in top flight history. Liverpool's Federico Chiesa came on for Emmanuel Frimpong in the 89th minute, who replaced the injured Alexander Izak in the 60th minute, who came on for the injured Conor Bradley at half-time.

27:02There's no humiliation there, because normally if you're the sub and you get subbed off. Yes. But all four of them have gone off for a reason. Exactly, yes. Have you ever had that, Cass? right never had that no never come on no never been subbed as coming on a sub no you no no you both played in the age of like one two and three subs though didn't you so you'd have never these days I don't want to say how old you are qualifying he would have been yeah you might have been basically you'd have one outfield player when I first started the game you'd have a goalkeeper and one outfield player I think that was about right so there were 13 men in a squad you were never going to have it Gregor as well played the football league they could barely fill a bench back then.

27:44Anyway, let's talk about Tottenham against Liverpool. Tom, you were there for this one. Firstly, the kind of broad-ranging question I always like to ask on Mondays, about the right result, Tottenham in the end finishing as losers and with people going, oh, they did all right with nine men. A completely bizarre sum up over the Tottenham season, really. Yeah, I mean, God knows what the right result was. I have no idea. It was a completely chaotic, balmy game, to be honest. I mean, you're sort of like twisting your head around wondering who it was good for, who it wasn't good for. in a sort of weird way I think almost Spurs probably came out with a bit more credit than Liverpool because Liverpool made really hard work of playing against 10 men for an hour and then playing against 9 men for the last 10 minutes and Tottenham were still not 10 minutes a few minutes anyway with 9 men where Tottenham were really pushing for a comeback and you sort of thought how on earth did Liverpool allow this to happen and even when they were playing against 10 men I thought Liverpool were quite hesitant quite ponderous I mean it was a nice goal really nice goal Eastside's goal they moved it really nicely it was a mistake from Romero but that combination that we haven't seen enough of Virts to Isak.

28:41They moved it quickly and a nice reverse pass, great finish. You know, that will be encouraging for Liverpool to see that kind of combination. Obviously, you know, the asterisk of Isak's injury. For Spurs, I mean, they showed some fight. You know, they did. It's that kind of cliche thing where, you know, like you're down to 10 men, therefore, you know, you made a game of it. Well done. And the South Stand with the Spurs fans at the end were applauding, which we don't often get this season, if I'm honest. You know, so there was that. And in the first 13 minutes, I thought they played pretty well.

29:08so when it was an 11 v 11 and we can sort of analyse it I thought Spurs were probably just about shading the match so overall I think it was maybe a sort of vaguely encouraging game for Frank There's a lot about Thomas Frank's season doesn't it that Tom's going two men sent off lost 2-1 at home pretty good well done Tommy lad good effort well exactly I mean they still lost there's another loss at home and the red cards it's not unlucky it's not like someone you know has made them play with nine men they did it to themselves two nonsensical challenges I was going to say I said this again after the Forest game, but Cristian Romero is not a captain of a top elite team, is he?

29:42I mean, I know he's one of the more experienced players. I know he's won a World Cup. He's fantastic for Argentina. He's not a captain as far as I'm concerned. Well, I mean, he symbolises his team in a way. Like, when he's bad, he's really bad. And that's a problem when you've got a central defender and a captain. You can't have a player like that who when they have a bad day, you know, they get sent off and they're at fault for two goals. I mean, that is a problem with Romero. And, you know, when he delivers in the big games, in the big finals, and he's, you know, he's up for it, World Cups of course I mean I think he's one of the best defenders in the world but on an average day to day game you know when your chips are down is he the guy in the dressing room looking to and thinking you know he's setting the standards there I don't think so I mean the red card was you know damaging for Tottenham because they were really chasing an equaliser at that point so he really killed them at that point but also the goal like his pass that he gives or he gives the ball away it was just like a lack of discipline you know we talk about lack of discipline in terms of his cards and his behaviour but actually there it's also a lack of discipline just in terms of keeping the ball, you know?

30:39Yeah. I felt the first 45 minutes was one of the worst Spurs-Liverpool games I've watched. It was awful. I mean, it all happened really in the second half, obviously. And Romero for the goal, Eketike's goal. As the ball comes in, and of course Eketike gets his hands on his back, but it's not a push. It's more of a sort of lift up. I think it was a bit of a push. Well, okay, a bit of a push. But he's fined himself to the ground. He's decided that hand on my back is me going, oh. And I'm like, because you've done that, the referee's gone, well, he's fined himself to the ground anyway. And it was never that much of a push.

31:23And if it would have been a given a foul, I wouldn't have said, well, he has got his arms on, or his hands on his shoulders. But Romero is the loosest cannon I've ever seen. I don't know what happens with him. He's one of them, the switch. You put the switch on and then suddenly, because like you said, Tom, he can be one hell of a player. But then it felt like the pass in the second half, like you said, he just pings it out. It feels like he's got anger. He hasn't looked for anybody. He's just smashed it out. And it's killing Spurs. Thomas Frank is probably, he's even arguing with Thomas Frank as he's going off down the talon.

31:59He's swearing and shouting, you know, and you think, I bet Thomas Frank think this is so much different from Brentford I've got to control these players and these players here are really because I just think I have no proof but it just feels like a really bad bunch to me I mean with Romero and Poster Coglu you know I think you get these kind of players don't you and every manager thinks they can kind of get them to kind of get their head down yeah he really gets the better year basically and Ange I think thought you know he didn't make him captain but he had a line in one of those games where he said we need a team of Romero's you know he really sort of tried to kind of get behind Romero and like make a good relationship there I'm not sure he really repaid that faith Frank in a way is similar like he's come in and there was a lot to talk about whether Romero would leave last summer interest from abroad Spurs gave him a big new contract Frank made him captain you know almost to kind of like elevate him and say okay we need you to kind of show the way again has he repaid that faith like I don't know if he has yet so is that where the narrative with Tottenham is heading towards now with this game where we've been focusing a lot on Thomas Frank and that maybe neutrals and the fans are now looking at the playing squad and going actually this is the manager might be alright but this is a real problem that he's got to deal with well he's got a number of them sorry he's got a number of them sort of problems Vicario in goal you know like I'm looking at him and watching him he's having a go at players when he makes a mistake it's like all goalkeepers do that oh yeah okay Gregor but the defenders union pipes up you've had Van de Ven make comments about some of the things that are happening in the club you've had the goalkeeper Vicario who's making mistakes himself James at the start of the season you said one position you think the Tottenham should change I said the cult keeper and everyone was like I got a lot of comments from people saying no chance this is a decent cult I just think he's another one that's going to lose it Benton Coe is a bit of a loose cannon too as well I think they've got a few they've got a bit ill-disciplined towards the end as well I mean I get people are saying that Tottenham emerge with credit from this but really you really are struggling if this is how you're getting credit these days for fighting with 10 men and going down to 9 and still managing almost to get an equaliser against a team whose confidence is fragile if not shattered I don't see much credit in that I would add I feel like it's a group of players that a good number of them think they're doing Tottenham a favour playing for them and I thought they had that when they brought the winger the one who played at Chelsea, the forward, the German boy, Werner, you know, when he went to Tottenham.

34:33And it was like, what is that? I mean, he didn't play particularly well at Chelsea, but watching him play at Spurs, and I don't know, I just think there's a lot of players who think they're doing Tottenham a favour, playing for them. With those two points in mind, Tom, and then back to my thing about where we're at with Thomas Frank and the narrative of this season, like, how did Tottenham end the kind of year? Obviously, a couple of games left before the end of 2025, but where are we at with Thomas Frank and Tottenham and the situation there? I mean, I think it's precarious for him, really precarious, you know?

34:56I mean, this made it, I think, the most home defeats, you know, in a calendar year in the Premier League era. And a lot of that was obviously down to Postacoglu. But, you know, Frank's not blameless there. He hasn't fixed that problem. I do think he's been given a tough hand in terms of the players. I agree with Tony. But that's more in forward areas. I think, you know, they're missing, obviously, Madison. They're missing Kulisewski. Solanke has been a real killer, you know, not having that centre forward, what they weren't expecting this summer. So there are difficulties with the playing team.

35:23But also, like, the 13th. You know, I mean, they shouldn't be down there. And the way they're playing, when you see Spurs, and this game, in a way, is hard to analyze. But when you see them playing against Forest, against Bournemouth, against Chelsea and Arsenal, the really bad games they've had, they've been so bad that it makes you think this isn't just sort of an early transition where there are some stuttering results. This is a team that isn't following the manager. They look lost. We're talking about the players here in terms of the ill-discipline, but I think part of that is it doesn't look like a happy team.

35:52They don't look like they're sort of together and they believe in what they're doing at the moment. and that's a real problem for Frank yeah I agree with that what have you said about Postolco there are players like Porro Spence I remember to an extent they looked like they were kind of liberated they looked like they really enjoyed playing and it's buccaneering freewheeling football now it's a bit more gritty and there's a lot of sort of discipline that they need they're not really Spence looks like he wants to chuck in the towel he looks raging all the time I mean yeah I mean I think it's quite precarious for him as well I think that is the kind of unmistakable feeling that the players it doesn't look like a happy camp and it's not just because of results like results started off not so bad I think it's not looking good for trying to be honest Tottenham fans do get in touch with me Tom.Clark at thetimes.co.uk just a quick word on Liverpool Tony an important win for them a really good goal for Alexander Izak and then of course really heartbreaking it sounds like a suspected leg break injury as with time of recording this podcast waiting for confirmation on that could put him out for a long time, potentially the rest of the season.

36:57But Liverpool generally, important just to win, just to keep a bit of momentum going. Did you see any bright sparks for them on the pitch? I thought they were really poor first half. I touched on that earlier. Isaac's goal and getting injured is a massive blow for him personally because you felt maybe they can get something going. Liverpool are not playing well. And yeah, they've won. And they weren't good with 10 men and they weren't good with nine. you know going up against nine men and going up against ten so no I don't I don't think there's much comfort for Liverpool fans even though they've won that particular game and got three points you might make Liverpool are getting much closer to the top four now which they have in recent weeks but it still looks like there's a number of issues to be dealt with Curtis Jones has stepped up a bit more in the last month which has been really good not so many mistakes a few more clean sheets but again I'm still not convinced Liverpool are going to get to the top four as they stand presently because I think they have to be way better than they've been In fifth at the minute on 29 points joint with Chelsea who are in fourth let's talk about their game against Newcastle another bonkers game on Saturday with some interesting decisions going on this was a missed opportunity for Newcastle though wasn't it Gregor in terms of getting that early need, thanks very much to Volta Marder for scoring those two goals after I took him out of my fantasy team early on Saturday morning he'd be a good pick he's had a good year by the way he's had a good year and I mean if you extend that to 18 months I mean he was Stuttgart's signing on a free transfer so within 18 months he's gone from being a free transfer to being a 75 million signing who's playing really well in the Premier League another great shout and two early goals in this one but a missed opportunity for Newcastle in terms of the inconsistencies we've talked about with their season they're in 11th I mean say 11th they're still six points off Chelsea in fourth which is a sign of how tight this Premier League season is Man United could have gone level on points with Chelsea Man United in 7th on 26th yeah but back to Newcastle just very quickly a missed opportunity in terms of this game yeah I mean in terms of the way the context of the game I mean Eddie Howe was full of praise for his team afterwards and I think he's right they were back to Newcastle as you know Newcastle at their best in terms of the intensity and how like they kind of they don't know they were just all over smothered Chelsea in the first half and then Chelsea I think probably got a rocket at half time and they've crucially got the goal from James soon after half time and then it was a ding dong battle in the second half and obviously the manner of the goal as well from Gerard Pedro's point of view and Chelsea's point of view it was a great goal but from Newcastle's it's really soft it's not just to leave yourself exposed because that's the way they do it even though even if they're playing a high press from open play they're happy to go 1v1 at the back or 2v2 or whatever but when Sanchez claimed it and then had a bit of time and then played it was a great it was a great kick to be fair you just don't get tight you just make sure that he keeps facing his own goal even if he wins the header you can get the next ball and it was so it was bad defending from Tio I know he slipped but and then he had so many incidents too so many decisions that were like my god what about that shoulder barge penalty then defenders union nothing wrong with it the force of it it was extraordinary he threw his entire trunk into him and just yeah he did you know it was just like absolute core stability bosh and yeah Gordon like with whiplash on the floor like Gordon's face as well when he was looking at it and going no no is that not a foul how am I supposed to stay on my feet with that what do you think penalty instinctively I don't want to give you know to see penalties given for like shoulder barges as a former defender but my god you can't go on that strong penalty for you yes it looked like I'd been hit by a Mark 2 truck I was laughing because I'm with a group of people and we were watching the game and we were chatting and one of my mates is a Chelsea fan and I went that's never a pen I went are you serious he's ironed him out the old phrase iron him out he's literally took him out and then I'm thinking sorry the guy in VAR I think what was the name of the game anyone know can't remember anyway the guy upstairs and he doesn't think it's a pen and he's getting slow motion and all the you know all the bonuses of watching it and I'm like I can't believe they've not given that penalty weirdly it was one of those I think in slow motion you sort of because you need the force to sort of understand it full pace play at real speed yeah with like the Javiv one for example like the slow motion obviously kills him because you see the kind of the studs up and then it's obviously red whereas this one you needed to like you need the noise to understand what this was straight down all saying penalty then take that wow all saying penalty then a good point for Chelsea then coming back and then just bringing it back to then the Premier League table you've got Chelsea and Liverpool fourth and fifth on 29 points then Sunderland 27 points a draw for them this weekend then Manchester United in seventh as Gregor said playing pretty well despite those injuries in defeat at Aston Villa then Palace wouldn't go too far with that Tom you said pretty that was pretty positive I think yeah but I should also say that they've missed I think that was the sixth opportunity they've missed to jump into the top five they've won two of their last seven or eight games like yeah they've been bright sparks but crikey how many chances do you want like they could if they'd won like five of those games they'd probably be top Man United in the title and they were led in loads of them too so yeah let's not linger on that too I wasn't I was running through a list you brought it back up again Crystal Ballas in 8th on 26 points then Brighton and Everton both on 24 then down to Newcastle 23rd then Brentford 23rd then you've got Spurs on 22 points Bournemouth 22 is this the real party in the season we're going to have this little top 3 at the top or maybe a top 2 Villas settle in 3rd and then we're the the real party is who's going to finish fourth.

42:46Is that what we're really heading towards, do we think, as we've turned the year? Yeah, I mean, I think Villa will... I could see Villa getting pulled back, I have to say. I'm not signing up to them being sort of, you know, away from the kind of the pack. I think it's possible they'll get pulled back a little bit. But yeah, I mean, it's hard to... You know, it's a crazy season, isn't it, this season? None of the big teams are delivering, you know, any kind of consistency. I mean, it's why, you know, Villa putting together this run has just pulled them from one end of the table to the other. Because anyone can look from about 12th, 13th up and think, well, two or three wins.

43:12but even Spurs you know 13th I think it is or around that area you know a couple of wins and suddenly you're right back into the kind of Champions League pack no one's really getting punished for bad form at the moment yeah mid-table is dead because after that it's just the relegation places below them let's finish with the team in 16th place Leeds and the Dominic Calvert-Lewin inspired Leeds Tony Cascarino he's the subject of your column in the game today a brilliant performance from him again you think 2026 could be the year of Dominic Calvert-Lewi. Well, it was more, Tom, as you know, I went to go and watch him last year at Brighton.

43:48Yeah. And he lasted 12 minutes, got substituted, pulled in him, hamstring. He then didn't play till May of last season. And his career was quite obvious that Everton were probably going to move on and so was he, another opportunity. And I listened to him in a podcast in the summer, high performance that he did, and he talks about all the challenges that he'd had, plus how going forward, he clearly knew he has to be fit. He has to be ready to play games. And that had been his major obstacle over the last four or five years. But he also talked about the frustration of being involved in relegation battles all that time.

44:29And his numbers were low. You look at his numbers the last three or four seasons, it's like 17 Premier League goals. So it was more about... And I think he's the best header of the ball in the Premier League as a centre forward. I think he's got an amazing lead. And when he came off at Brighton injured, I was looking at him and I was thinking, your body's a gym body. You know, where he's trying to get fit all the time and doing a lot of different weights. And I don't know, because I don't know his routine, but he just looked a bit too bulky. And I felt there was one injury after another. And I've seen it before with players who get injuries from being in the gym too much.

45:03And what I'm seeing now also, he's playing too up front. You know, he's playing in a system that they've gone to up front, which has enabled him to do less running. Maybe he can pick and choose his runs and he's got a partner alongside him. I've said it all my career. I don't know any forward who's ever said to me, I like playing up front on my own. Everyone wants a partner. Now, the game changed because of, obviously, the extra body in midfield and a lot more people want to go three up front. Me and Tom were talking off air, like the Ronaldo, the Rooney and Tevez, sort of scenario at Manchester United.

45:37and many teams have done that three. And I just think it helps Calvert-Lewin as well. So I'm really hopeful that he has, because there's a quality player in there. This is not a 32-year-old at the end of his career. What's Calvert now? Still 28? 28, yeah. 28 years old. So he's still got time to save his career because I think even Evertonians know that a really good Calvert-Lewin is a one-hammer player. Well, they must be looking with Beto and Teeno Barry going, why the hell did we not just keep Calvert-Lewin and get him fit? Because they'd be looking at him. I did see as well someone shared on social media the goal graphs for his goals at Leeds did you see it?

46:11Unbelievable all in a straight line right down the middle of the goal between like two yards to the penalty spot extraordinary just a straight line it's just a straight dotted line as in his finishes where are they from? absolutely straight line from in the centre of the goal as in where the position he was where he was centre of the goal two yards out to 12 yards which is a Carlo Ancelotti thing from when he was at Everton saying just stand when he played his best football right here between the goals don't go anywhere else That's when he played his best football time. Turns out Carlo Ancelotti knows what he's talking about.

46:38And our dad as well. You take the two goals, these two goals on Saturday. The long throw by Ampadu comes in and he's not the one looking to flick it on. He's the one trying to get after the flick on, the initial flick on. So that in itself is saying, that's where you're going to get your goals. You're not the one making the flick. You're the one getting on the end of that flick. And he gets two goals like it at the weekend. So I just hope he stays fixed. so I'm really interested to see how he does especially if they keep with two up front it's just a big F isn't it it is a big F there's no doubt I said this last week after the Brentford game I was at which the less said about the better it's a great goal and great leap and beautiful it looks so natural for him he's a great header of the ball absolutely but it's just if and can he stay fit like when he signed for Leeds it was like that could be a game changer for Leeds if he stays fit but is he likely to it's not been well if he can if he can stay fit then is he an England contender or is he he should be he should be yeah because I mean Solanke's not playing Watkins isn't having a good season Tony Tuchel doesn't fancy him so I mean why not after Kane you're really I mean Callum Wilson's out of the picture as well well he's talked about playing Phil Foden as a Callum number 9 but then you could have the surprise off the bench to Calvert-Lew in 10 minutes in that game against Morocco in the round of 16 where the rounds get knocked out I can see it coming from him well yeah people like yeah people might be sniffy about that but that is something that's important I'm not joking I can see it coming you could throw on a player who like is a target man you're an option yeah absolutely and then for Leeds then for everyone in terms of keeping fit they could stay up absolutely yeah I mean it's been a weird old season for Leeds they started you know they spent the summer signing one six foot plus giant after the next talking about you need to be really good at set plays and they actually scored four goals from set plays in this they've just leaned more into the the project that they started to build in the summer Daniel Farx still wanted to play the kind of you know the expansive football that's the way he's been as a coach throughout his career and he switches to 3-5-2 plays it from back to front a bit quicker and this has been the result I mean there's been more to it than that I think Okafor has been quite impressive actually he's really a left I think he prefers playing on the left like as a left on a front three so often when he's although he's playing in a two he drifts a bit wider and like I don't know he's a difficult player to mark and he's quite creative so he's been a big boon for them in recent weeks and it's just really good for the full backs in particular I think because they're just far better going forward than they are defensively and it just unshackles them a bit so it's been a big shift now haven't they got a bit of a gap on certainly clubs like West Ham yeah they're six points to West Ham 19 and 13 West Ham obviously beaten at Manchester City which is always a difficult game Burnley getting a draw do we see the bottom of the table a bit more straightforward than this kind of chaos that we're talking above them or is it still up for grabs?

49:35Obviously Fulham and Forrest playing tonight. I mean, I think we look at the bottom three. Leeds will still be nip and tuck. But it's hard to pick another team after that. I think Forrest will continue to climb the table. And I think Fulham, we've seen they've got enough quality. Bournemouth are dropping and Brentford, I wouldn't be too confident about having a completely anxiety free season I think they've got enough to be safe but I think it's very hard to pick who's going to be dragged in I think it's Leeds look, Scotty Parker's not I don't think he can keep Burnley up, I think it'd be an amazing job if he kept them up so we're looking at where Wolves are, we're talking really it's West Ham and all the others that Gregor has mentioned, Leeds and Brentford and whoever could get dragged in, but West West Ham is in a scary position because they're losing games, fans aren't happy, what they're going to do in the January window could be adrift by sort of eight points, ten points.

50:41It's a massive, massive window, isn't it, for West Ham? It's like what Martin Samuel said a few weeks back about you look at all the other teams and you can see some hope, you see where they could turn to maybe change things up a little bit. I mean, not all the other teams, but the teams above them anyway. and Nuno had the impact but then you're sort of falling back into that you're going particularly defensively it's just a calamity they need to sign players in January particularly defensively I think if they're going to stand a chance next four games for West Ham home against Fulham then home against Brighton then away against Wolves and home against Forest that's basically that takes you to the 6th of January they might not have even signed anyone by then if they've not got points from them that's a big period for them they've got to get points Well, I mean, when Nuno came in, I think we all sort of thought, oh, they'll be all right, because he adds that certainty, and we've all sort of just been sleeping on it.

51:32I mean, West Ham fans, you know, watching them are really worried, you know, and I think they're just, all the things you'd think Nuno would have brought hasn't really happened, and they've still got all the weaknesses they had before. Yeah, really interesting. West Ham fans do get in touch with me. Tell me just how many players you would like to sign, 20, 30, or maybe just 10 in the January transfer window. We'll leave it there for now. Tom, I was just going to ask, we discussed on Thursday, our wishes and hopes for 2026. you got any to contribute? I was thinking I really hope that Bellium and England sort of make up you know not in terms of the team but I just hope that the World Cup I suspect it can kind of go either way right and I really hope that he has the kind of tournament that makes everything kind of right again because it feels like it's all gone a bit sour in the last kind of couple of months less Gianni definitely less Infantino just generally you know across the board and I like I was talking to Tony before we came on about the front twos and I was thinking maybe in 2026 maybe that might be something we see more of like there's a little and large partnership again the kind of Crouch to Foe that would be great wouldn't it it seems to me like it could be something it sort of matches up with the kind of the trends that we're seeing at the moment you know slightly more direct with set pieces that maybe something could come in and I'd be all for it QPR doing it absolutely in the championships QPR playing two up front and I mean they blew Leicester away the weekend but they're doing two wingers and two forwards Tony Cascarino's eyes lighting up when you talk about big man little man up front so he's gone two up front Tony Cascarino absolutely loving the idea of the return to the big man I'm coming back Little man, yeah, coming back And we hope you are going to come back, Tony, on the show very soon But we'll leave it there for now Tony Cascarino, Tom Allnut and Gregor Robinson Thank you very much for joining me Thank you too for listening Me and Gregor are going to be back with a little EFL special around Christmas time We'll see you then