How good is Max Dowman?

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1:29Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. 16-year-old Max Dowman is the youngest goalscorer in Premier League history and what a moment to announce your arrival. Arsenal's prodigy inspired Mikel Arteta's side to a late late win against Everton to extend their lead at the top of the Premier League table to 9 points with 7 games left to play We'll be discussing just how special Arsenal's boy wonder and GCSE student is and could be and asking if this is the moment that Arsenal put one hand on the Premier League trophy At Stamford Bridge more youthful giggles as Chelsea played a game of ring-a-ring-a-roses around referee Paul Tierney before kick-off before more schoolboy defending ultimately cost them against Newcastle And at Anfield, Richarlison's late strike earned Tottenham Hotspur their first point under Igor Tudor against Liverpool, but draws for West Ham, Nottingham Forest and Leeds United, meaning the margins are still wafer thin in the relegation battle.

2:21I'm Gregor Robertson and joining me in the studio today, we have two London football reporters for the Times, with a particular focus on Spurs and Arsenal, Tom Allnett and Gary Jacob, and the Times tactical analyst with a particular focus on expected goals, Hamza Khalid Lunat. Good to have you guys. Right, only one place to start. Max Dowman 16 years and 73 days this is the kind of stuff you know we've been moaning a lot this season it feels like about you know set plays boring football the Premier League's descent into oh yeah I'm looking at you the Premier League's descent into I don't know rugby or whatever this is the kind of thing that everyone loves to see isn't it Gary you were there what a moment what a moment and it was I mean Arteta went for went for it didn't he but all the attackers on do you think he deserves credit for that and you know he's been criticised a bit recently he probably had no choice okay yeah I think he had no choice really I think mentally a draw would have probably not been great especially if then City had actually gone on to win later on and then coming up with quite a defining week so I think he had no choice really Rice dropped in and he put Downman right and Downman's played right since he's kind of had the minutes when he's been playing and it was a fantastic goal wasn't it I mean the cross was one thing but then obviously and the goal beyond that was, and you could see it coming.

3:40I think everyone in the stadium could see as soon as he took his first touch and he went around the second player. You thought maybe he'll slip Martinelli through and let Martinelli score it, but actually just went on. Martinelli is quite clever because he ran across Mikhlenko just to stop him getting to downwind at the end in case he was going to get to him. And it was quite, yeah. What was the atmosphere like at that moment? Because it was a builder, wasn't it? Yeah. You knew it was coming. I think we're saying there's never probably been quite a cheer like it since the Rhys Nelson last-minute goal against Bournemouth a few years ago, the three-all draw, which the whole stadium erupted that day because it came out of nowhere, really, Rhys Nelson, his left foot into the corner.

4:18I think it was from a corner. But, yeah, the whole stadium completely erupted. And also then in the corridors, everyone was kind of back-slapping. It felt like this is one of their own and they've brought him through. And I suppose it's been the moment that they've been waiting for from when he's come through the academy because they've seen it in the academy but this is obviously on a much bigger scale and everyone in the world can see it. So he's been training with the first team since he was 14. He's the second youngest player to represent the club, the second youngest to play in the Premier League behind Ethan Nguanieri on both counts.

4:51This could have come earlier too. He missed three months with an ankle injury and we all remember maybe seeing those moments in pre-season as well where he would like, I think he won a penalty against Newcastle, against Villarreal, the way he just kind of glided past people. There's never a sure thing, Tom, is there? but this is about as close as you get of like when you see a player that seems a certainty to have a glittering career. Yeah, it's one of those where I think, you know, you talk to people at Arsenal and they've been excited about this kid for a long time, you know, and I think it's been building, you know, this sort of hype around him that they have this guy in the academy who is, you know, clearly a cut above, you know, anything else that they've got at the moment, you know, coming through the ranks.

5:27And people speak a lot about, you know, how he's a very smart guy as well, you know, that he listens to Arteta. He really takes things on board very quickly. He's not one of these kind of maverick youngsters who just sort of plays free. He actually is also kind of absorbing the information he's being given. I mean, I always think with these kind of title races, you sort of have these kind of lift off moments, don't you? And often it does kind of involve sometimes bringing on a sort of a wildcard player and winning a game like this, where it's such fine margins. And, you know, it did look like for Arsenal, they were struggling to break it down, weren't they?

5:57Just he kind of brings on that energy and that freedom and all of his touches. When you have a young player I think who has that kind of ability that he has everything seems clear you know such clarity in the touches you know that he immediately just wants the ball and when he has the ball he's not sort of taking the safe option he sort of is enjoying the attention almost you know and you know we can talk about Pickford and whether or not he should come and got it but it was a great cross and even the goal you know he had a lot to do so it was a long run and he had to beat a couple of players to get there I mean clearly just a fantastic talent.

6:29Well I mean the front page of the game today Hamza's you know it's got a picture that joyous picture of downman with game changer and martin samuel's written he's even suggested that this might change sort of perceptions about arsenal if they go on to win the title and we see more of them because everyone loves to kind of as i said to love loves to see a young player breaking through this do you think it could have that effect as well it could do yeah um you never know really right um so it could do um with young players i'm always a bit wary of like hyping uh because they're the child they're still at school right since you always want to be really careful with how you talk about them you don't want to heap expectations on because as a child you could find that quite difficult the issue is he's played arse on there right and he's scored a winning goal so as in irrespective of trying to play stuff down as in he's he's clearly of the level that can play in premier league football he scored his goal uh he had a key contribution um i mean but gary you've been watching him from a young age right so you saw him in the academy what was he like it's the same just glides and he's just like he's playing in a park really he just he's effortlessly goes past players and it's the same for England youth teams he just he just cuts inside from the right and he's just so skillful um but the interesting thing to me is whether um how he's going to develop at Arsenal because Arteta's as we all know his kind of teams are quite functional so is he going to allow Dalman to be this maverick who can do what wants to do or is he going to kind of overly coach him and you feel like when you look at Saka and Eze sometimes you feel like they're kind of playing within a little bit of shackle sometimes and you think you know in particular when you think Eze earlier this season against Aston Valley makes a mistake on the left lets Matty cash in not seen on the left again you know it's like you're in the bad books for that and you know I'll tell you to denise that but that's the impression you get and you look at Saka and you think is he quite the Saka that perhaps he was, he could be if he was just allowed to do what he wants to do.

8:25Is Arteta actually going to let him down and do what he wants to do? And I don't know. What do you think, Greg? Is that important anymore? As in, as much as we like to see, well, I think it is important, right? But as in, for the sake of this discussion, I'll say, is it actually important for players to play with joy and to have fun and to be expressive if the team wins, if the team is more functional, if the team has better efficacy in the way that they play. Is that actually important? I mean, look, we're maybe getting ahead of ourselves here. It's also a crowded area of the team. We were talking about this earlier.

9:03You've got Osaka, you've got Maduweki, Nwanyeri was still, you know, I remember last season watching him have a cameo against Leicester and he was the best player on the pitch from like having 30 minutes on the pitch and the entire report was about him. And now he's off, you know, how quickly things can change as well. he's in Marseille and sitting on the bench after a managerial change so we're maybe getting ahead of ourselves but yeah he is someone where you think everyone just wants to get him the ball and when he gets the ball you've got to allow him to do what he does best which is as Gary says it's glide it's glide.

9:36I played against Wayne Rooney a few months before he made his breakthrough in an FA Youth Cup game and it was just everyone just wanted to get him the ball and it's like a case of it was so good and so jarringly good that everyone around him knew it. And I think when that's still the case, when you make the step up to first team football, to a club of the stature of Arsenal, you're a pretty special player. Is it weird, Gregor, playing against a kid? When you're marking a 16-year-old, do you feel like, I don't know, do they feel smaller? Well, I was only 80, I think, but he certainly didn't feel small in Rooney, no.

10:11He was a force of nature. He is actually, that's an extraordinary thing about Dowman too you watch him run away he's got kind of low kind of somehow got a low centre of gravity with the kind of little scuttling stride but he's really strong and it's interesting in Martin Samuels column today he's speaking to Jamie Redknapp who has watched his development because he has a his son is of the same age I think in academy football and he likened him to Paul Gascoyne by the way he used his arms to keep people at bay so he almost Paul Gascoyne would throw an arm into your sort of neck almost but you know it wouldn't be a foul but he would keep you it always keep you at arm's length and he has that same knack his sort of physicality for a 16 year old is extraordinary i mean i think the physical element i think is really crucial because i i remember i was covering stuff in spain when anti fatty came at barcelona and people were talking about him as kind of you know the next messi and he was absolutely electric for about six months but he played so much so quickly you know and then the injuries kind of come and they break break down and i think that is always the danger when you have someone so young, you know, playing in a physical league like the Premier League with senior players is not to kind of overplay them, obviously, you know, too soon.

11:23You were talking already, like, you know, it's picked up already kind of an injury and they just have to have that protection. I think Gary's point is really right about, you know, his creativity, you know, longer term under Arteta. But I would back Arteta to sort of see through this process in a very kind of careful, considered way, you know, and I think he's probably in good hands for now. I mean, in the short term, it's interesting how Arteta uses him. Does he chuck him on against Leverkusen tomorrow? Because they struggled last week. How much does he use him in the... Because he's a bit of the joker in the pack, really.

11:52In the squad, he's going to do something a little bit different. Everyone else is a little bit samey. Medewake's up and down. You get a good game, a less good game. The rest feel a little bit predictable at times. And he is someone who can kind of do something completely different. So So it'll be interesting whether there's a pressure on Arteta to kind of play him. And he said on Saturday, oh, calm the pressure. But then, you know, it wasn't that long ago. He likened him to Messi. So that's hardly kind of calming the pressure. Will Tuchel be interested in him? Yeah, I mean, people are already making that claim.

12:26You know, this is the balance you have to have, isn't it? Everyone always says, come on, you know, hold your horses. He's 16, he's still doing his GCSEs. But when you're that good, it's hard to hold him back. And it will be, you don't want to think about this thing, but what happens when a defender clobbers him? You know, a wily defender gives him a good kick. That's already been happening in England age group games. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was a thriller to watch and a hugely important moment in Arsenal's season, you think. Tom, to West Ham a few hours later and it became even more important after Manchester City's inability to get away past West Ham at London Stadium.

13:05Yeah, and I think always these kind of juxtapositions of the chronology of a title race are always really fascinating, aren't they? Because I was at the London Stadium kind of, you know, doing a sort of pre-match homework and everyone was watching the Arsenal game on the telly in the press room at the London Stadium. And, you know, literally half an hour before kickoff, basically, Arsenal have, you know, that down when goal has gone in. And I'm sure I asked this afterwards, actually, in the press conference, were you aware of the goal? Did you watch it? Were the players aware of it? How hard does it kind of go out on the back of that?

13:32And he said, well, I was having a beer and I was aware, but I'm not sure the players were. But I do think that the feeling for City is different, right? If they're playing that game, knowing Arsenal have dropped points. City played all right. They played well. They had 24 shots to West Ham's one. You know, they controlled the game. The game was sort of how they wanted it to be. You know, they had all of the ball. They created all of the chances. But just in the final third at the moment, they're just missing that kind of cutting edge, you know. And of course, partly it's Haaland. You know, we go back to September and Haaland had scored nine goals in four games at one point.

14:06And now in the last four games, he's scored none. And the problem that City have is that this version of City has been moulded around Haaland. It's been designed so that it feeds him. So when the guy that the team has been built around isn't delivering, you know, that's the whole thing kind of almost breaks down. And Pep talked a lot about afterwards about kind of vibes and about connections and about there being a lot of new players and that being a problem as well. but I think you could tell in his body language, you know, because he said before the game, if we drop points here, it's over. And it was that classic thing where you ask him after the game and he said, it's complicated.

14:38You know, he didn't want to kind of, he wanted to row back a bit, but you could tell his body language in the press conference that he was sort of reviewing the season in a kind of like a long lens, past tense. You know, we've done great this season, but we just haven't, you know, scored enough goals. We haven't been clinical enough in the final third. And he got the sense that we're still in it. Maybe it's not impossible, but I think he feels now that it's a long way back. What do you think Hamza? What's going wrong for Manchester City? Although the margins are very fine like Gay had that glaring chance at the end that could have been very different but Tom's right they're just not functioning as an attack in quite the same ways.

15:11There's been an evolution of the team this season as well hasn't there? Very early on in the season you could see that they were concentrating their play around Haaland I think there was a period where he was taking around 40 % of their shots maybe slightly more. Usually like any player imagine playing five-a-side and there's one guy that's taking like 40 % of the shots. You're thinking, what the hell, man? Like, share stuff around, right? I've had that feeling many times. As in, 40 % is a ridiculous amount. It's slightly higher from what I remember. It's come down a bit. So I think it got to around 30.

15:42But even then, for a title-winning team, usually the spread is around like the top... Your top goal scorer will have like 20 to 25. That's a max. So to go to 40 is really weird. But at the very, very start of the season, Pep Guardiola said that we are going to focus around Haaland. We're going to try and maximise his strengths. We're going to play to him. It's just that he's had this weird finishing slump. And this happens for all players and all teams. Arsenal had a finishing slump earlier this season when they were actually playing okay, but the finishing just didn't go well for them, so they dropped some points.

16:13City have had it now. I mean, they weren't that bad against Real Madrid. They just got hit by a Valverde hurricane. sometimes the amount of times that you can look through however many seasons right and you could say oh well that team were playing well it just didn't quite click I think that's where they are at the moment you can sort of over interrogate these sort of things and go wow that's their mentality I think sometimes you're a bit unlucky when you rack up 24 shots and have two-ish xG and you draw with a team that had one shot you can go maybe we're a bit unlucky in that match not even a shot a header yeah corner and that's it yeah I think City had 15 corners and West Ham had one I think it was that kind of game honestly so it was beer before the game then I wasn't I wasn't intrigued by this Tom just casually having a beer before the game I know maybe he's on his way out he's enjoying it well he wasn't in the dugout either so maybe he could relax a bit more before the game what about West Ham West Ham deserved grid I mean as you say didn't offer that much in an attacking sense but that was never going to be any other way, really, when they're facing Man City.

17:22Yeah, that's what Nuno said afterwards. You know, he said, there's no other way. He wanted to ask, he wanted to answer about two questions, you know, he was sort of already kind of getting out. He's always halfway up, isn't he? Okay, guys, finished. But yeah, I mean, there was no other way, you know, and it was right from the beginning, you know, you could tell that West Ham, you know, had 10 men behind the ball sitting in, allowing City to have possession. It wasn't an easy watch for West Ham fans to turn up and watch it for 94 minutes, you know, just the team basically waiting and hoping, you know, to kind of get a corner or something, but it worked, right?

17:51I mean, it did work. They're showing that resilience, aren't they? I think we talked about this a few weeks ago where I always thought that for West Ham to have a chance, they needed to kind of build in that Nuno resilience. You know, all of Nuno's best teams have kind of been hard to beat, solidity first, you know, and then they kind of work from there. And some of those players at the back now, you know, De Sassi, Mavropanos was like, you know, played like Beckenbauer. He suddenly came in, scored a goal, defended brilliantly, last ditch block at the end from O 'Reilly it was. And the Hallen strike as well when he mollied it.

18:23He was everywhere so suddenly and Nuno said afterwards you know it was a heroic performance and it was you know it was brave there's no doubt about that. I still have my reservations about West Ham going forward about their creativity I don't think I buy quite as heavily as others are into this kind of idea that they're playing brilliantly and have momentum I think they've won one in the last five or so but it's better than it was you know and they've given themselves a chance. OK, what about the title race now then? It's nine points, City have a game in hand and they still have to face Arsenal so it could be whittled away but do we think this was the weekend where Arsenal put one hand on the trophy?

18:58Gary first? Yeah, probably although I think they've also got some they've got Bournemouth, Newcastle and Fulham still at home and I think it's going to be a repeat of Saturday in those games and it's kind of buckle up guys for the rest of the season it's not going to be you're not going to be walking over teams and it's going to be a very similar picture. Newcastle will be happy to kind of get one over them. There's no loss between those two teams. Fulham are awkward. Bournemouth will be awkward. But the gap is big now, isn't it, really? It's kind of, it's big. And it'll be interesting what happens on Sunday when they meet in the final, whether that has any effect beyond that as well.

19:35And also Arsenal will have the demands, presumably, well, hopefully for their sake, of the Champions League as well as the FA Cup. So, Dom? I sort of feel like three or four things need to happen now don't they you know City have to win their game in hand they have to win that match at the Etihad which everyone sort of just assumes because you kind of want to make it closer but there's no guarantees they win their match and even then it's three points you know so then City still have to make further gains elsewhere you know and if you look at the form at the moment it doesn't look like City are gonna you know finish with three or four more points in addition to those things happening you know in the last eight games.

20:11I don't see it. I mean, you never know. Arsenal are Arsenal. A couple of slips and suddenly everything gets tight again. Of course, the momentum can shift, but I think it's firmly in their hands now. Valza? They're in a strong position. I think the Daman goal reminds me of the Makeda goals for United, as in that was their moment against Villa, right? And from there they just built. So, perhaps actually that moment will become a liberating one for Arsenal because they now have the points cushion they now have that moment which they can build around they can maybe matches won't be as turdied as they were against Leverkusen and Everton what isn't the really tough watches right and I think you could tell that the pressure of the occasion the pressure of the league the pressure of previous seasons was getting to both the fans and the players but now that they have a bit of a cushion they can go okay we've dealt with that pressure we can just play the game in front of us and maybe there'll be um maybe we'll just run away with them I don't think so until they have the trophy in their hands the Arsenal fans won't believe it okay shall we get two more tough watches out the way before the second half Hamza games you and I were at let's start with Forrest Fulham 0-0 we have to cover these games because although they were very tough watches as you say I was at Palace Leeds as well no goals hugely important points because West Ham briefly climbed out of the bottom three and then it was as you were and another game's been whittled away.

21:39So, you know, what was the atmosphere like at the city ground before this one? Before the game, as always, right, it was good. And then immediately as the game starts, it just, you can sense the nerves throughout. As much as the fans want to support their team, they are just nervous. So it's quiet. They're edgy. And they don't feel like their team is settling. It's, yeah, really quiet. Still struggling for goals. Yeah. and they were really unlucky against Liverpool and Michelin I remember they had loads of shots in both those matches this wasn't quite the case especially in the first half but then you had around 15-20 minutes in the chance of boring and backwards everywhere we go which I never think helps right I don't think there's a player in the team that's thinking oh man why didn't anyone tell me I was boring and backwards I'll fix it now so yeah it didn't quite help Fulham should have scored at the end of the half when Josh King got on the end of a corner Bassi also had an opportunity but we couldn't quite tell if that was offside or not and in the second half it opened up and Forrest did have a go they thought they scored but it was offside they thought it had a penalty but that was also offside and then yeah it was kind of end to end for the second half and that was good to watch but again you can tell the nerves are there and all it means is that the pressure is amped up for next week's crunch match with Spurs.

23:08We'll talk about Spurs after the break, just quickly on Leeds Palace. There's very little in this game of action of note to talk about. What about the moment when Thomas Bramall, the referee, clearly forgot that he'd booked Gabriel Goodmanson? Does anyone here think that that matters and actually affects his decision? People always say it shouldn't affect whether it's a yellow card or not, but do you think the fact that he forgot the first yellow card? if anything it's cleaner isn't it because the decision is what it is you know there's no there's no bias there you know you're like do you not think like i don't know a referee will always probably think twice because it's the second yellow is going to lead to a red card i would think that's that that's a natural human reaction and the fact that he forgot it was a it was a soft yellow yellow card decision in the first place yeah very very strange what was it like in the stadium it was just confused it was just there was such confusion like you saw the crystal palace players reminding the referee that Goodmanson had already been booked and he sort of looked around like oh okay and he had a really uncomfortable like five minutes before before halftime when you know everything exploded there was a moment where another Leeds player could have been sent off Jacob Beal that would have been harsh I had to order a penalty as well which was missed by Calvert-Lewin but that moment was was truly bizarre and actually kind of probably ruined the game a second yellow and like a penalty should always be more severe than a normal foul though right as in so if it's just a little push right on the corner of the edge of the box right you don't want to give a penalty for that because that gives a 79 chance of scoring for something that's like 15 20 yards away from goal yeah or likewise a second yellow as in that's a massive impact on the game and how it's going to be played you don't want to just give out that booking and send someone off for a normal foul right it has there has to be a higher threshold for those right well yeah and that's but that's what happened and daniel farke and oliver glasner were walking off like i haven't both been booked for their protests kind of laughing at the absurdity of it all at halftime it was very strange what was the feeling in the end gregor because i mean for the relegation fight it feels like this was a good point for leeds given the red card yeah i played for half a game with with 10 men defended really kind of doggedly and you know they have the three point cushion they have the easiest running it's a good point away from home they've still got I think Burnley Wolves maybe Brighton at home Brentford sorry at home pretty winnable games possibly at Ellen Road so they're in the driving seat and all things considered it was a very good point for Leeds Palace on the other hand are just in a miserable state at the moment Oliver Glasner kind of almost coming close to saying stay humble again he wasn't saying that in so many words but he was saying this is still one of Palace's best seasons in their history and they've scored I think 14 goals at home this season so not what Palace plan would be Did you get the vibe if they go out of Europe this week that'll be it for him or do you think he'll kind of linger to the end of the season I mean he'll probably linger to the end of the season but he doesn't want to be there No he doesn't want to be there and actually increasingly I don't think the fans want him there either I mean that was true a few weeks ago and he was literally on the brink before was it Forrest they played on the Sunday and they drew oh no they won 1-0 who was that against Forrest?

26:15I can't remember and after the 0-0 draw against Larnac in midweek as well of Cyprus, the Cypriot League yeah, a big one on Thursday for Palace a much bigger one for Spurs and Forrest which we'll be talking about after the break but first, it's quiz time Max Dowman may have become the youngest goalscorer in Premier League history this weekend but football did exist before 1992 So, can you name the youngest goalscorer in top flight history? Find out after the break.

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28:57Welcome back to The Game Podcast from The Times. I'm Gregor Robertson alongside Gary Jacob, Tom Allnut, and Hamza Khaliq Luna. for the break we asked you the quiz question and the answer is Gary I've deferred to Tom because he knew it instantly it's true why are you asking Gary I gave the answer was it you Tom yeah I'm sorry Jason Dezell I'm not going to take the ill credit generous Gary thank you yeah and for your follow up Tom which teams is Jason Dezell playful Spurs one of them Ipswich Ipswich was the team he scored for aged 16 and 57 days home against Coventry City in February 1984 a month after my birth so I shouldn't know much about that so young Max is 16 days short of the record in top flight history which goes back to the formation of the league according to Bill Edgar so he was close never argue with Bill Edgar never ever anyway to Anfield next a huge game between Liverpool and Tottenham it wasn't a classic Tom but Spurs showed some fight and got Igor Tudor's first point big big result yeah I think they deserved it as well I actually thought they could have won it.

30:03I thought of more kind of confident Spurs with a little bit more quality in the final third and those final minutes. They had a couple of good openings and I thought they were really good value for the point. They started better, I thought, in the first 20 minutes. The goal went in, of course, Schrober's free kick, which looked like another kind of won the goal from Schrober's line. Actually, you see the replay and I think Vicario should have done a lot better. And then, admittedly, I think Liverpool had their best spell. You know, Spurs, I think, lost a bit of confidence, a bit of rhythm for that and Liverpool were the better team before half-time, I think.

30:31but then I think in the second half I thought Tottenham were really good value for it you know they were probably more on top in terms of the ball they had a lot of space created some really good chances Richarlison had three or four even before the goal and yeah I mean I think it's it's a useful point you know I wouldn't say it's in terms of the result you know it's just a point isn't it you know don't get carried away but no one saw it coming but no one saw it coming you know I think everyone you know Spurs fans would have gone there thinking they were going to get pumped you know and just avoiding humiliation kind of would have been a would have been a minor victory.

31:02So in terms of that, of course, the result is big. It keeps them out of the relegation zone. But I think the main thing is just for the belief. You know, I honestly think the players after the Atletico game and the Palace game, just to have a normal football match where they weren't unraveling, where they weren't sort of embarrassing themselves in front of the world, where they were playing properly and competing, you know, with a good team like Liverpool who are clearly having their own problems. Let's not get away from that. But at Anfield, I think it just reminds these players that in big games against big teams, they can play.

31:34You know, this is still a team that can still function properly. And I thought the kind of main theme of the performance for me was just kind of back to basics, you know, simplification of everything. You know, the way that they were playing out from the back, much less risk-taking, much more direct, especially in the second half. I think Vicario may have got a rocket from Tudor at halftime even, just sort of saying, look, you touch, go long, hit Solanke and Richarlison. You've got two players up there who are good in the air, who can bring the ball down. Let's just cut out the mistakes because actually it feels ridiculous to say it now, but in the match against Atletico, between the kind of farcical errors, there was a sort of signs of a solid sort of performance there.

32:14And I think Tudor probably just wants this team now to cut out the kind of errors, you know, become a more, we talked about West Ham, you know, being solid and resilient and being in games. Spurs have to kind of have to do that. and I think this was a first step in the right direction. Is it a blueprint maybe? I mean it's going to 4-4-2, Solanke and Richarlison are a handful up front together. Do you think that's the way Spurs are going to go forward from here? Yeah, I mean it's not the way Spurs want to play, right? No. But this is a different world. It's not the way we expected Judo to really approach the games either.

32:43He's kind of known for his aggressive high press and things like that as well. And I think he's learned on the job. We expect people to come in and there'll be a debate about whether or not you should have brought someone in who maybe knew the Premier League or knew the team better. But I think as games have gone by, Tudor has sort of learnt which players can do what things. He generally in his coaching career has been a coach who likes to press high, who likes his players to run, but I think he thinks that this team isn't physically capable of doing it. I think he thinks this team are not confident enough to play out from the back, so they have to simplify it.

33:15I guess the question is, does this blueprint serve Tottenham well in their crucial home games they have to come? So they've got Leeds, they've got Forest, they've got Everton, they've got Brighton, all at home. So in those games, away at Liverpool, of course, play longer, play direct. But in those games at home where maybe you're expected to set the tempo, maybe where they need to go and win, do they still deploy these kind of tactics? Not sure, that's a big question mark. But it's given them a base. And if I look at the other teams in the relegation battle, West Ham and Forest, Leeds even, And what I think Spurs' two big trump cards are going into it are Solanke and Richarlison.

33:54I do. I think Spurs have goals in the team. And it's a funny thing, because if you'd asked me at the beginning of the season, I wouldn't have said Richarlison was in Tottenham's top 20 most important players. I think he's almost probably Tottenham's most important player in the next eight games, because he has that kind of fight and that grit that you sort of want in a relegation battle. He has the ability to go on a streak. He missed a lot of chances yesterday, but he's in the right place at the right time, isn't he? Things kind of come to Richarlison, and I think he could be really important in the next few weeks.

34:19I've got players coming back next month. They've all been at a long time though. That's the thing. How much can you count on them to return? 13 absentees. When that was pointed out before the game, you're like, crikey, it is a hugely depleted team. They only had seven players on the bench. Two goalkeepers. You're bringing on academy players. Yeah. And I mean... That you've never seen before. Yeah. And it's worth reminding that always about Tottenham. I know a lot of teams have their injuries, but it's always worth saying that the context of this is they have 13 players out a team basically of injuries that would be better than the team they're playing and Gary's right you know next week they will have Van Der Ven back from suspension Romero and Palina back from concussion they may have Udoghi back at left back after the international break they may have Kudus back Bergvall perhaps and of course you know are they going to be sharp enough to go in straight away don't know but you would think that Spurs may be going to get stronger Gary where does this leave Tudor though I mean there was you know there was even some people are surprised that he was in the dugout for this game it was the touch which is the kind of the furore after the after the Madrid game Tom will know much more than me but I would say that probably gives him a little bit more of a lifeline beyond this week I think I mean also where would they even go I don't know I think the options are so few and far between where they would go but I mean perhaps if they lose on Sunday they'll revisit over the international break and maybe Mason will look back at Mason and some of the others or Hasselhorter if he's or but there really aren't many options out there No, I think that's always been the problem.

35:47It's why they waited so long for Frank, because they just didn't have the clear options. Of course, the ideal thing, I think pre this game, they were sort of going back to the idea of perhaps making a permanent appointment, trying to push for a coach that maybe has the authority. But of course, the two or three candidates that Spurs would love to have in the summer, if they are a Premier League team, Bochitino, De Zerbi, Iriola, for example, none of them want to come in straight away. So that's not an easy decision to make. I think it's difficult to move on from Tudor after a performance like that given the injuries and given the result I think they have to sort of hope that they have some momentum now which ahead of two home games against Atletico where they have a little bit of a free hit you know maybe they don't win the tie but if they could win the game you know and get a bit of uplift going into that Forest game at the weekend I think that's that's how they play it now What team do they play?

36:38I mean Hamza you mentioned this in your match report at the City Ground as well both teams are playing in Europe Spurs on Wednesday Forrest on Thursday is that decision almost made for them by the fact they don't have any other players to play? Yeah they have no players Okay That's an easy question to you then Okay How do Forrest line up? Forrest will rotate so they hope well they're going to hope they're going to be a bit fresher but yeah It's a huge game a huge huge game I think that European context is important as well I do think Forrest going away on a Thursday night versus Spurs playing at home on Wednesday I think that could be important I actually think to answer your question I think even if Spurs had options, I think they should have a go.

37:18Because I think they need momentum. They need the rhythm and the confidence. I play the same team almost, you know, okay, maybe two or three changes, whatever. But if they could get a positive performance against Atleti, you know, and win the game or draw, whatever it is, then suddenly you feel like, okay, gone to Anfield, got a point. We've beaten Atletico 1-0 at home. You go into that weekend game against Forest and you feel like, okay, we've turned a corner here. I think that's much, much more important than than resting players do you think imagine if someone got injured like then they'd have 14 players injured right or 15 then you're thinking why did we why did we risk out a shot of Premier League sort of survival on well it's the Champions League let's remind ourselves of that it's the Champions League like you're saying why do we risk this for that it's still the Champions League we've talked about this everyone has a dream right but at some point you know I'm not going to be a footballer you're going to I'll go to university or do whatever Gregor didn't have to right he actually was a footballer.

38:12Most people at some point will go, they'll have a dream, I'd really love this at the start of the season, I'd love to do this. Actually, some other things are a bit more important and at a football club, your league status is probably, well, it is more important to the board from a financial sense to fans, maybe that's different. But sorry, Gary on. No, no, no, go carry on. I was enjoying that. Go on, Hamza. Imagine they get more injuries in this athletic game imagine they put the full strength team out and then they get battered where's the confidence then right this is I mean Tudor was saying the press conference the other day I loved it it was you can look in life either at bottle half full or bottle half empty and he said and there are lots of empty things at Tottenham you've just gone back against what you just said there mate he was talking about the future in quite sort of ethereal terms as well the future doesn't exist what about his punchy interview as well to Sky Sports he's not doing much to endear himself It doesn't look like he cares about that, but he's not doing much.

39:13Yeah, he has no time for the talk about his future. You know, we tried it many times and he has no time for that. I wonder if there's a slight sort of cultural thing there of sort of his career being in Serie A, where I think coaches tend to defer a lot more easily to the execs. Ask this question to the sporting director, and you actually can, because the sporting director comes through and you can have a mix-on conversation with them. So there's a slight confusion there. It's almost like, why are you asking me about this? My job is to work on the training ground. It's not my job to talk about my contracts.

39:42So I think there's a slight cultural thing there, but I also think it's part of his shtick, which is he's gruff and he's grumpy and he's quite hardline and he doesn't take any prisoners. And let's not dress up. Some of the Spurs players last week weren't happy about that. They didn't like the way the Vicario and Kinski thing was handled. He's ruffled feathers around the training ground. But it's all about results, isn't it? you know, and if he can pick up results now. I think, you know, if they win against Forrest, I imagine he'll be there until the end of the season. If they don't, all bets are off.

40:14It was a slightly comical moment before the game when he walked out and sort of slapped Alan Dixon on the back, thinking it's Arnie Slott. And Alan Dixon, to the people who that know, is Daniel Levy's brother-in-law, who's Daniel's wife. And so, which is quite a funny moment. And obviously then he walked off and I think Alan just turned around and sort of go, okay, hi. yeah i mean obviously the question of what alan's doing there but alan's always there in fact as a funny story alan's always on the bench he's the sort of brother-in-law of daniel levy he's always been on the bench except when marina was there because marina got wise to him being on bench thinking he's going to be passing stuff above he's not around the bench yeah he's he looks after the players of player liaison you know he's been been at the club for year, I don't know, probably 20 years and it's just quite funny.

41:03Obviously, he's, you know, maybe he was the eyes and ears when he was there for people above. But I think if you watch that clip, it's quite funny. Well, from behind, he does look quite like Arnest Lott, to be fair. I have sympathy. Let's talk about Arnest Lott now then. Hans, are they really bad? They're really bad. I watched bits of the match in the after the after the Forest match at the press conference and they have the TV on there so you can watch bits um so I watched it then it was um Tom mentioned a blueprint earlier and I think this was this was the same blueprint that's unpicked Liverpool all season long so um specifically um so since the Everton game last season at Goodison where Everton went long and really ruffled Van Dijk and Canate uh they have had this vulnerability to long balls and dealing with second balls in midfield uh this game spurs uh i think they hit 21.8 percent of their balls their passes long um there's a not to pick out a number but well i'm gonna pick out a number but if you hit roughly 20 percent of your passes long against liverpool their win rate just plummets as in i put a chart together a few months ago and you can see liverpool's win rate it's really really really good and as soon as you get to around 20 it's just lost draw lost draw lost draw they're terrible at dealing with long balls.

42:23And to make it worse, Arnest Law advertised the fact as well. That's a common in the times, actually.

42:32But yeah, so he was quite open about it. But interestingly, actually, I spoke to a colleague who knows stuff, everything quite well. And they actually discussed this with the Everton coaching staff. And they asked like, what happened there? Was this like, did you do this on purpose? And they went, no. last game of goodison right we just got to let that sort of decide um how we play and that became the template then for loads of teams to use against liverpool and again it was just so vulnerable to it and so you have that problem their their inability to deal with long balls and when a team goes long that means you can't press they lose that ability to press so you lose that offensive and defensive thing in pressing because first of all when you press you keep the ball away from your goal and when you press as well you win the ball high high to there so you can create chances you lose that attacking and defensive quality and then when they had the ball oh my god they're so bad with it uh their chance quality this season is it's below average in the league so anna slot has spoken a lot about we create a lot of chances um but we're just not converting them but when you look at the quality of those chances um like i said it's below average uh so this match they're roughly 2xg in 20 shots i think so just 0.1 xg per shot again just below the league average it's hard to understand how a team with that much attacking talent struggles to create chances right, brought Salah Eketike and Jones on after the 60th minute, don't think they changed too much yeah there's some serious questions at Liverpool right now because I mean last week Slott had his 100th game and he had 62 wins in the first 100 matches, equal with Kenny Duglish, the best right best record at Liverpool, however if you segment that up it doesn't look that good right so if you just take the first 50 matches or the first 20 of which i think they won 18 so loads of those wins have been front loaded and now obviously it's a bit unfair to just say well all those wins were then they don't count because that's like saying oh this cricketer that scored like the average 80 in their first three years and then you just take those runs away well the crap now well that's not quite how it works nonetheless over the past 38 games they're averaging like 60 ish points 61 62 points that is quite a large sample size and that's quite worrying uh and they've been struggling with this issue since around March April last year so yeah this this hasn't been a good team for a year now that's quite concerning much for Liverpool and Arna Slott to to ponder uh let's go to Stamford Bridge now and one of the strangest starts to a Premier League fixture I think I can ever remember it was that strange it was kind of funny it was funny but it was strange it was that strange so you've seen a referee in the middle of a players huddle around the ball I've seen stranger things go on tell me what I don't know to be fair I'm not in the grand full kick off usually so usually my idea I'm looking at a biscuit or something in the restaurant he's still eating the pre-match fair ok ok Tom what did you make of this I mean like this idea that Leibniz-Nasin was saying they're respecting the ball it wasn't his decision it's the player's decision has this been blown up out of all proportion or was it kind of something that just makes Chelsea look gimmicky and stupid yeah it's weird it just looked weird didn't it and it just looked kind of wrong like what's the referee why are they around the referee and there's that weird sort of exchange with Palmer and you know it's just the whole thing was odd and I think it's sort of a tension I think Chelsea can just do without like I think at the moment I understand Rosinha you know and the players kind of wanting to to start a new kind of you know era here and to put their put their mark on things but these gimmicks they just they play into other people's you know suspicions about Chelsea which is that ultimately there's so much kind of chat around you know the team and you know what can we do more and actually just the focus on the performance you know and ultimately they didn't deliver the performance I always think if I was the opposition looking at that huddle it would fire me up to win the game you know like I didn't get it at all I would say it was bizarre no one cares if you win if you don't win and everyone raises it so yeah if you win the game it's oh well that's amazing and no one no one speaks about it so I don't know I think we would all have spoken about referee in the middle of a playoff title but no one not quite in a critical way it becomes like it becomes about more questions about them than as Tom says and you kind of they don't really need the questions okay well let's focus if Arsenal did it people were like well that's one of the secrets of their success season.

47:03It might be more dark arts. Literally. He's got a box of dark arts. But there is a bit of a huddle obsession kind of going on. More and more you see teams kind of get into huddles at drinks breaks, like after conceding goals. There's a bit of a thing going on. I don't want to kind of say it's the Americanisation of football, but it feels like a little bit like that. This idea that everything has to be kind of together all the time. And it's... It was in the Timberwind down on Saturday and they were straight across there for lots of huddles on the side, lots of words. Both teams, it felt exactly like that, really.

47:37It felt like going back to, was it the COVID days when we had the break? When was it when we had the break in the middle of the game? Was it in the COVID in the first summer when we had that break and that halfway through? It felt exactly like that, really. And it felt like very broken up and all the instructions coming on. You seem really upset about it, Gregor. Do you want to get it off your chest? No, no, just really bizarre seeing Paul Tierney with a very stern face as well. He looked at the camera. it's real David Brent sort of thing man yeah it's box office really it's ridiculous what was the most bizarre thing you saw on the pitch I don't ask me that I don't know you put me on the spot I'll try and think I'll come back to that they have DJs before kick off now this isn't that bad it's just a bit bit funny right let's talk about the football then because that wasn't much better for Chelsea really poor defending for Anthony Gordon's winner booed off at half time it's not it's like it does seem to be although there's been you know you pan out and say Liam Resenior has actually done a decent job so far as Chelsea manager.

48:32They still seem to be teetering on the precipice. It's not like the fans are ready to turn quite quickly, it seems, Gary. When you saw that goal, you saw that Rhys James and some of the other players weren't quite sure where to be and the kind of hole that Newcastle played through was quite thick. But it does feel in the wider picture about when he got the job, it's like midway through the season, what's he going to be able to do? What's he going to be able to mould? Is he going to be given time? and it does feel that there's a little bit of murmurings, which I think is a bit unfair to him because he does need a bit of time to kind of mould the team he wants.

49:04And he's got a lot of players there who aren't really hitting Villa. You wouldn't say that some of the wingers have kind of delivered for him. You wouldn't necessarily say some of the forwards have delivered for him. And at the back, maybe they're still a little bit susceptible. Certainly when I saw them against Arsenal, a lot of ball, we didn't really do anything with it. I suppose the bigger question is that who's the team they're going to be is going to get in the top five positions. Is it going to be them? Is it going to be Liverpool? Is it going to be Villa? Who's going to be the one there?

49:33And a knock-on effect to that. Tom, what chance do we give Chelsea against Paris Saint-Germain in the Champions League in midweek? Not much. I don't think, I've got to say, I think it was there for them in that first leg where they kind of had them sort of where they wanted it and they unraveled. I have to say, I mean, PSG can do that too. They've done that to a few teams. I mean, I watched Spurs concede two or three goals, at least to PSG in about 10 minutes as well earlier in the season. Once they get going, they are that kind of team who will run over you for 10, 15 minutes. It can happen. But I just, I don't see Chelsea at the moment in the kind of form and confidence where they're going to go into this game and damage PSG.

50:15I just don't see that. And Newcastle at Barca? Again, I think Barca will see that through. I mean, Barca have their problems, you know, defensively they can be got at and that could hurt them later in the competition. But I think at home, everyone's feeling great because Laporta's just been voted in as president again for the next four years. They've beaten Sevilla this weekend. They're in a good position, I think, Barca. I still think that against real top teams, perhaps Arsenal in the semi-final, for example, I think they might come unstuck, but I think they'll have enough in this game. I sort of think one of the comebacks is going to happen, but I'm not quite sure which one.

50:52Spurs! I don't think it's going to be Spurs either. Maybe City? Don't know. Let's wait and see. Maybe a bit of a shock at Leverkusen, Arsenal. Yeah, maybe. Could easily be. Let's finish with Manchester United 3-1 Aston Villa. Manchester United really taking a grip on third place in the Premier League table here. And Casemiro, Hamza, where's this come from? One more year they were chanting in the Stretford end when he scored here. And another excellent display by the Brazilian who's going to be moving on in the summer. I don't know, to be honest. I don't know. Well, I mean, we've spoken about it so frequently over the last couple of years about how open Manchester United's midfield has been and how it lacked legs, and he was a big part of that.

51:36And suddenly, perhaps in a more rounded sort of tactical blueprint and structure, he looks very comfortable, and more than that. What really interests me about Manchester United is the attacking improvement. So, weirdly, it actually started under Amarim. When he got sacked, I think they were still... most shots in the league third most xg third most goals and they've just developed upon that since uh so they're really they're a good attacking team you didn't see that as much in this game weirdly but as in um cuña sesco both got on the score sheet um they're really effective and the way they work with fernandez i mean fernandez gets the assist for casemiro's goal he's got a good chance of um closing in on the um assist tally i mean it's kind of cursed this record as soon as someone mentions it they always falter what is the record 20 i think it's um uh henry and de bruyne hold it as a shared record um but fernandez's output this season has been incredible i think he should be in a shout with uh for play of the season if you look at specifically his big goal contribution when i say big goals i mean goals uh that either equalize or take the lead and so goals or assist right so his contribution he's just by far the best player in the league And he's also miles out in front of chance creation.

52:53Yeah, yeah. But with chances, like, anyone can get chances, and you just pass to a guy that shoots, you get a chance. That's how it works, right? If you pass to someone and they take a shot, you are logged as creating a chance. It doesn't matter where the shot comes from. So if you want to look at quality of chances created, then you look at sort of XG assisted or XA, and then divide that by the amount of shots taken or passes into the recipient, right? So yeah, but if you look at those big contributions, he's by far and away the best. so I think he's got a good chance for being played this season however sorry I just can't answer you Casemiro I didn't expect it I don't know I mean isn't it he's got Meno alongside him which kind of does a lot of the running it does help we haven't got Bruno he's played other games with Meno alongside him but it feels like he's got someone now who actually can run alongside him and you know he doesn't have to do quite if you've got Bruno there you're doing a lot more running aren't you when he had Bruno there and now he's kind of much more surely that's got to be and also So maybe he's playing for a contract.

53:52It's true. They're more vicious. I mean, they've said he's not getting one, don't they? But the crowd are singing, you know, give him one more year. Would you give him one more year? I mean, I guess if they get in the Champions League, you would do, wouldn't you? Or maybe you would give him another year? Maybe not on the money. That's the other thing you might be playing for. Not on the money, yeah. World Cup, right? Yeah. I always think with Casemiro, like at Real Madrid, I think there was this idea that he was, over here when he arrived, that he was kind of this barnstorming kind of defensive midfielder who would kind of cante it around everywhere.

54:18But actually, that was never really what he did at Madrid. He always had a three-man midfield with Kruis and Modric, and he basically played at the base. And he liked to have the ball. He was almost like a deep-line playmaker, really. He wants to kind of spray the ball around, wants to kind of get forward and shoot. He's not going to sort of cover the ground for you and shut down everything. He likes to have protectors around him. And I think at United, perhaps too often, he's been exposed because he's been asked to play a role that really he hasn't really done before. Manchester United, as I say, taking a grip on third.

54:51Villa in fourth, Liverpool in fifth, Chelsea in sixth. Who do we think are going to take fourth and fifth place, finally? Gary? Oh, I think Liverpool. You think Liverpool will take last place? Yeah. Tom? So we're talking Liverpool or Chelsea? Yeah, I mean, Villa obviously lost three games in a row. They're on a bit of a slide. You can bring them into it as well if you think. I think Villa will have enough, just, I think. although the only thing with them is obviously with Europe they might start to wonder if that's a better route but I think they will probably have enough Liverpool and Chelsea it's difficult you know the mood around Liverpool is not good you know you could really sense that you know in terms of that game there's a real sort of disconnect right now isn't there with the team yeah I think Liverpool just Hamza?

55:35I actually think it's between Liverpool and Villa I think Chelsea will be the fourth place team I actually think their underlines are quite good that first 70 minutes against PSG was excellent. It's just they have this propensity to self-destruct red cards or just stupid decisions. Huddles. Absolutely huddles. Their underlines are actually really good. Their attacking output's pretty good. I think when you compare them to Liverpool and Villa at the moment, on those figures, they're just way better. So that's why I think it's going to be between Liverpool and Villa. And I think given that Villa are two points ahead, of I think Liverpool will just claw it back Saviasek back after the international break but I wouldn't be confident in saying either one or the other interesting okay where'd you go for Gregor I think Villa are sliding yeah and I feel that out to me I've often said money tells in the end so probably it'll be Chelsea and Liverpool anyway we'll be back on Thursday to discuss all the teams in European action and look forward to another huge weekend in the Premier League hope to see you then Thank you.

57:11us.