How should Man City be punished?

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1:55Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. On today's show, we'll be discussing the fallout from the huge news that Manchester City have been found guilty of almost all 115 breaches of Premier League rules. We'll be laying out what happens next, the range of possible sanctions and what a guilty verdict could do to the Premier League brand. Plus, Thomas Tuchel promised to embrace the chaos, but was England's 3-2 defeat against Spain a bit too chaotic? Or were there glimmers of promise at Wembley? I'm Gregor Robertson and joining me to discuss all of that are the Times football reporters Tom Allnett and Gary Jacob and the former Chelsea and Ireland striker and Times columnist Tony Cascarino.

2:40But first, joining us down the line from, I believe, a car park at Manchester Airport, the glamour of this job, eh? To discuss the enormous story that broke on Friday, of course, we have The Times' chief sports reporter, Martin Ziegler, who has been reporting on this story for, crikey, how long, Zieg? 20 years, maybe? Feels like it, doesn't it? Feels like it. I think it was November 2018, I think. Yeah, so nearly eight years. Yes, nearly eight years, yeah. So it's incredible how long it's been going on for. And I'm afraid to say it's going to keep going on, probably for another year. You think so?

3:20Okay, well, yeah, we'll come to that perhaps. But I thought we'd start by briefly reminding or explaining to everyone what exactly it is that City have been accused of and now reportedly been found guilty of. I should say that City still insists they have irrefutable evidence to disprove the charges, but just give everyone a reminder of what this is all about, Zeke, please. Yeah, so, I mean, it's called 115 charges because that was the original number of separate allegations, though actually very soon that changed to 130 because initially the Premier League got some of the charges slightly wrong.

4:00so it's actually it's actually 130 charges and these range from i suppose most serious ones i guess are not making accurate financial reports of their sponsorship sponsorship income effectively the owners paying manchester city themselves money that they said that should have come from the sponsors was actually coming direct from the owners that's one of the major things uh and then And the other sort of easier things to understand, I guess, is not declaring the true pay of the manager, Roberto Mancini, and the true pay that was being paid in relation to several players, one of which was Yaya Toure.

4:43So those are the kind of main ones around the kind of financial reporting. And then other fairly serious ones are not cooperating with the Premier League investigations for five years. So, yeah, a whole list of allegations. Can you just kind of outline why that is so important? I mean, clearly inflating sponsorship revenues allows Manchester City, or has allegedly allowed Manchester City to put far more money onto the wages and the transfer market and onto the pitch and to pay managers. So can you give us a kind of overview of why this is viewed as so important and so serious? Yeah, so in 2010, UEFA brought in financial fair play rules and the Premier League did the same in 2013.

5:30So that sort of limited the amount of losses that a club could make. So what you then had is the allegations, and most of these have now been found proven, is that Manchester City basically brought in money via other means, which was in breach of the Premier League rules, extra sponsorship money, paying off the books payments to players' agents to get them to join Manchester City. so obviously strengthening the team that way and if you're strengthening your team bringing in top players, top transfers, top managers and paying them money that you haven't declared to the Premier League then obviously that's very serious and gives you a massive advantage on the pitch What happens next?

6:21I mean obviously at the start there you suggested this is going to run for a long, long time but what's the next stage? So what we know is that Manchester City have been found guilty of all the substantive charges and almost all the charges. So the next stage is a sanctions hearing to determine what punishment they will face. So we'll have a, we're not sure the exact timescale, but I don't think it'll be too long. We'll have the commission who, the three-person panel who decided on these charges will hold a hearing and the Premier League acting as a prosecution. They will put forward what they think should be suitable punishments, and Manchester City will put forward their mitigation.

7:10Then they will come to a decision on the sanction, which will be announced. And then after that, I'm sure there will be an appeal, I think simultaneously, both against the guilty findings by Manchester City, and also an appeal against some of the sanctions, I guess, is what will happen. But I think probably from their point of view, the most important thing will be against the actual guilty verdicts. So that, I think, could run for many, many months, that appeal process. I mean, we saw with Everton, which is a fairly simple profit and sustainability rule breach. Their appeal took three and a half months to take place.

7:52So if that, for one, basically, effectively one charge is going to take that long, How long is the appeal process going to be for more than 100? So that's why I think this has still got a long time to run.

8:07Martyn Ziegler: Hi, Martin. Tom here. You mentioned those cases. Do you think in terms of the precedent, it will have any effect on actually the punishment itself? You know, you talk about the timing there. But do we think the kind of Forrest and Everton cases are at all relevant here? Or is it just, you know, a completely different universe? Well, I mean, I think, you know, if they're having points deductions for spending too much money, I think it was six points and then two points wasn't it for evidence but basically six points for one breach that that's a starting point and we're talking about much much more serious charges so I think yes they they must have some sort of impact those those punishments Tom but then you also look at the case of Chelsea which just had where they actually were involved with not too dissimilar things under the Roman Abramovich thing, undisclosed payments to agents and players and intermediaries for transfers, including top players like Eden Hazard and others who contributed to their huge success that they had.

9:14They won the title, I think, twice after that. And yet, because it was self-reported and it was full cooperation and also new ownership, they got away with a£10 million fine. I'm sure Manchester City will be, in their defence, will be absolutely highlighting that and saying, if they get away with a£10 million fine, whatever the Premier League prosecution suggests, they will say that Manchester City didn't cooperate and denied everything, they should be dealt with totally differently. But I think all the cases we've had so far recently, the Forest, Everton, Leicester City and then the Chelsea one.

9:57They will all have an impact, I'm sure. Orton, I wondered as well what you're hearing about the kind of reaction from within the game, maybe other clubs and executives. Is there an appetite to kind of, I don't know, throw the book at City or is there also a sort of an awareness that stripping them of their titles, the reputational damage that this could do to the Premier League more broadly is something that should be considered as well? I think most of the most, you know, the biggest reaction is sort of relief that it's finally coming to an end because it's been going on for so long. I think people think that it's been ridiculous.

10:33We just had a transfer window and they spent several hundred millions of pounds on Manchester City. And this is still hanging over them. And how long is it going to go on for? So I think most clubs are thinking the important thing is to get this done now and get it out of the way. because what's more damaging is having this hanging over them rather than what the consequences are. Steve, can I ask you, can their appeal go outside of football? Could it go to the high court and perhaps the Supreme Court? And presumably it can't go to Cass because they've signed up there to not go to Cass. Yeah, it can't go to the Court for Arbitration for Sport.

11:10That's right, Gary. I think it's not easy, but I think it's not easy to go to the high court. I think it's possible, I think. Whether that goes that far, I think, will depend a lot on what the sanctions are. I mean, I think that'll be a sort of an exercise that has to be weighed up. Would you take this to a court of law? What's actually a kind of sporting dispute, really? It's not straightforward. It's not impossible as well for it to happen. So I personally think it's unlikely that will happen. But on the other hand, we've seen the way Manchester City have approached this in the years since they've done everything possible to disrupt this happening.

11:55happening and there have been high court cases already involving this case in terms of disclosure which have which have gone into we've now had and we've had their sort of rulings um published where they basically Manchester City were forced to disclose information to the Premier League that they had initially refused to do so so I don't it's not beyond the bones of possibility I think if it does I think that might that might make a lot of other clubs unhappy as well Just finally, Ziggs, any idea at all when we might hear what the sanctions are? No, and I actually don't think even the panel will know that because, as I said, I wouldn't be surprised if the hearing takes place fairly soon in the next few weeks.

12:42But then there will be a period where they will have to deliberate on every charge what that sanction should be. And then so that's going to be another fairly lengthy process. so yeah watch this space Martin Ziegler Chief Sports Reporter for the Times thank you very much for joining us safe travels thanks Ziggs thanks Ziggs bye now some brilliant pieces on the Times website just now guys by Martin by Matt Lawton Martin Samuel Jonathan Northcroft and others Martin Samuel writing that the verdict could reduce the best league in the world in inverted commas to rubble Johnny asking should Man City's guilt change how we rate Pep Guardiola's greatness and a mountain of other things.

13:26I mean, this is a thread that you pull at, Tom, and everything could unravel.

13:31Martyn Ziegler: Yeah, and it's going to be interesting, obviously, to see how the game reacts because, as you say, you can keep going and going. I mean, do I appeal my TV subscription? That's money I could do getting back. You look at all the clubs who Man City have beaten in all the cup competitions. Leicester City, when they didn't reach the Champions League, for example, and City got in ahead of them, look what's happened to the club since you look at the players for example whose you know titles didn't win as a result the sponsors that could have come in it goes on and on and on you know and I mean in terms of you know Guardiola and also the players you know I think it will you know I think forever people will say you know that this period of dominance you know for City people will always say yeah but you know and I think that's just the reality it's going to be now you know whether or not it's the right thing to go back and take away the titles and redistribute them I personally think not but I do think it's going to affect the legacy of Guardiola and also of the club Your period in question, Cass from this case is 2009-10 2017-18 but Tom's right City were champions three times in that period domestic cup winners four times but what followed there's the treble winners of 2023 and they won historic four league titles in a row you can't separate what happened then from what came next can you?

14:51No No. That's what makes this so difficult. It's nearly impossible. It feels like it's a gathering snowball. It just keeps getting bigger and bigger. I was listening all over the weekend and I'm on radio and people's different views and what players could do, what maybe agents, how could they be affected, clubs themselves. Now, do Man City have knowledge of other teams that have done some serious breaches? Because I don't think they'll go down without swinging at other people in the game as well. Because it's quite clear this is not only just a Premier League problem. This is problems that have happened in other leagues as well.

15:22We've had the Juve of years gone by. I spoke about my own club, Marseille, for a period of time. And OK, they're different charges. But this will continue. And there will be, I don't think it'll happen, a clamour for ex-players who might say they were affected or lost there. I don't think that's going to happen. I just think you have to hang on to the credibility of the game, whether they lose trophies. I just can't see that happening at all. and I think it'd be unfair to do that because, for example, if it was Manchester United and I played my last game against Manchester United in the FA Cup final, we lost and they were found guilty of something and we lost 4-0 in the FA Cup final and just said, well, that final was unfair.

16:01I just think you can't go there. Tony Pulis thinks it, doesn't he? No, I don't agree with you. He does, yeah. Honestly, Greg, I don't agree with that. And so does Alan Poggio with the Newcastle and the Champions League. Well, how far, Gary, how far do you keep stretching? Yeah. You know, how far do you take it? Tom's subscription fee? It also could affect this season. If the sanction isn't doled out this season and City win the league, then we have another season of uncertainty. Or even a team that finishes in the relegation zone could potentially argue that they were affected by City's relegation, say, the season after.

16:37It is impossible to know how far this threat will unravel, Gary. The size of the sanction, which could be, as Ziggs points out, one thing was six points. This is 100 charges of Guilty, more than 100. How many points is that? At least 50, as Tom says earlier. 50 puts you in a possibility of not quite relegation, but it's similar with the titles, mid-80s, aren't they? So it's that sort of level. And is that going to be mid-season? Will it be the start of the following season? Will it be over multiple seasons? It's just, and you know, it's just, as Tony says, it's just like a hornet's nest.

17:19Martyn Ziegler: But we can say that it's not a good thing for the game to redistribute those titles. But individually, all the clubs will think, they act in self-interest. We know this with football, right? Like we can sit here as journalists and say, it's not really the right thing for the Premier League, for all of us to start going over every single little match. But the clubs will do that. You know, the executives will do that. They will say, we deserve this. We deserve that. We were, we lost sponsorship money. we lost revenue that we could have had. So in a way, I mean, you know, you can talk about what's good for the game, but actually people aren't, I don't think that's going to be relevant.

17:50I disagree on that with Tom, is that I think a lot of players, ex-players like myself included, would go down the road of, we wouldn't want a change from what happened in a certain game. You know what I mean? If you lost a final and it cost you a trophy like Tony Bullis is saying with Stoke City, I don't think the players would want, say take, you know, oh, you've got the winner's medal now. I just don't think, I wouldn't want that.

18:12Martyn Ziegler: Well, Andy Robertson, I think, said, didn't he? Yeah, Johnny referenced that. He sort of said, in my opinion, they won it on the pitch. And I can see that as a player because that's always your mindset, right? But I just think in the boardroom, it's a different mindset. It's, you know, look at all that money we could have had. What a team we could have been. Well, that's where the problem started in all of them. There are four clubs who have reserved their right. But since they were doing that, some of the ownership changes. Man United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Tottenham. Levy's no longer at Tottenham.

18:38Tim Lewis is no longer at Arsenal. Tim might have had a go, he's a corporate lawyer, Man United is in one position and Liverpool might have a different ownership by this, the way this is all kind of pan out. So you wonder whether any of those would actually have the appetite to actually take on City and at the moment it's only reserving the right. And obviously a lot of teams have decided they don't want to take on the battle, you know, for whatever reason, maybe they think just Man City have got bigger pockets than they have to kind of to fight the legals. so what we're just saying about the politics side of you know of how that plays out between the clubs as well yeah I think certainly I think that Daniel Levy would have taken it on if if he was still in power.

19:18Colours to the mass then what would what would be your sanction? I mean I know it's hard to know exactly you know this is all it's not even really it's not the Premier League haven't made any announcement on this there's still a lot a lot of road to travel but it seems clear that they've been guilty of all of almost all the charges seem reportedly all but one if that's proven to be the case

19:37Martyn Ziegler: what would be your sanction? I mean it's interesting what Ziga was saying about Chelsea you know I mean that is interesting context you know I don't think it's been brought up a lot but I think it has to be heavy you know and I'm sort of I think it's important to sort of balance the fact that Manchester City is a football club you know there are people who work for that club who would have had absolutely no notion of where any of this was going on and you know equally I think the fans as well I don't think it should be a punishment that feels resentful or bitter but equally it has to send out the message that these rules were broken over a sustained period of time, deliberately, that they were hidden for a long period of time as well, that it wasn't self-revealed.

20:14Martyn Ziegler: And to me, the points penalty initially should be enough, I think, to send them down. And I think it should also reflect that it's been over a sustained period. So in a way, it shouldn't be a 50-point penalty. You get relegated, make a Netflix documentary about it and come back up and everything's fine again. It should be, yes, enough points to send you relegated. And then perhaps it's been six years so another five years 10 points every season because you know what you cheated over a sustained period of time so therefore you get punished over a sustained period of time as well and maybe those 10 points every season it's not enough to send City down to you know non-league but it's enough to make sure that every season they have a punishment going forward and I think something that is more sustained would reflect the the the severity of the cheating that was in the first place.

20:58Martyn Ziegler: Gadi what would you think? Yeah I would agree with Tom, it has to be a period of time because if you were to give it in one season and it was getting more than 50 points, say 60, you'd probably relegate them. I don't know if that's necessarily a good thing for the league as well because people will argue, people like Harlan, all the best players would go abroad and it's not as if the Premier League have that many outstanding players at the moment. So that's a counter argument to ensuring maybe you don't really want City to actually get relegated. But you might want to make it difficult for them but I'd say Tom if you did like as Tom says you did it over a few seasons you took enough points that maybe affects whether they get in the Champions League or not and actually gives them a battle for that that seems a bit fairer but the difference with the Chelsea cases Chelsea came forward didn't they and they said look look at what we found City have always said nothing this is wrong we're not guilty they've done more than that they've sued the Premier League absolutely so that's they've really challenged the regulations The population, the league organiser, they've been very...

22:00What would you do, Proko? I'm in the chair. I'm going to ask Cass first. Because Cass wrote... First of all, I want to reimburse Tom. That's the first people who want to do this, Cass. How many is Tom? Well, just because you wrote a piece in today's paper about your time at Marseille. You joined Marseille after they'd been relegated to League One for, you know... Bribery and match-fixing, where they were found guilty of. And the punishment that Tom's talking about, it is sustained. then your argument in this column was that Marseille never really recovered. Well, they've won since 1993 when they were champions.

22:32I mean, they've won four years in a row previous to 1993. Had some great teams that were put together. But the bribery and the match fixing was a massive issue. And obviously, we're not associated with Man City. But of course, when I joined the football club, the punishment was in place. We got relegated and we lost a lot of the players from the season before that had won the Champions League. So players went out the door. So the punishment did continue for Marseille. And I argue my point is that, yes, Marseille had done a lot wrong, but still today they've won one league title since then. And they are the biggest club in France.

23:09People might argue PSG have become the biggest club. The best supported club in France and the biggest achievers at that time ended that day they got punished by obviously not being in the Champions League, punished by being demoted and then it continued and they never really recovered. Marseille are not the same club in any shape or form. Now, obviously, Manchester City are in a far better placed position financially and probably could suffer a lot more than Marseille could. But it's a club that's been in free fall for a long time. So what would your sanction be for City? In all that context that you've experienced?

23:43Yeah, look, it has to be severe if they're found guilty of all charges. It has to be. There's no doubt in that. Now, I would be for a points deduction I'd also add in an embargo. And I think that's fair as well. You know, so you've got the... And a fine. And a very large fine. Now, people might go, well, that doesn't make a difference. But if you put all three together with an embargo that was longer than Chelsea's, what did Chelsea had? Two years, Gregor? Embargo? Two years, wasn't it? Two years. So make it a longer one than on Man City, on the embargo. Make it a bigger points deduction than any team in the Premier League has ever had.

24:17And then you add that with a fine. But I got the feeling, and of course I was working up the weekend on this and there was an idea that actually some people were like, end of Ancet and I'm thinking, well, come on. All what's happened on the pitch, a lot of players, I didn't know what was going on at the football club the first year I was there. I knew they'd been relegated, but it was continued during the season as well. There was other punishments that came afterwards because it wasn't finalised from 94. It continued into 95. Other players, Barthes left the club after the first year I was there.

24:52So he'd stayed an extra year with Marseille in the second division and then was allowed to go to Monaco because they had to do it. They were in another financial problem that occurred. So I understand, Gregor, it has to be severe. We all understand that. It's just how severe. Yeah, and also I think that's kind of problematic about sustaining it as well. I mean, and then the extent to which you sustain it. sustain it and if it's a sustained points deduction are you trying to just keep them in that league are you trying to continue sending them down are you just trying to is it just an ongoing punishment just as a kind of token something that's tokenistic I think it's all very problematic but clearly it does need to be What would you do Gregor?

25:36I agree it would have to be a points deduction that's big enough to send them down I think beyond that I think that would inflict enough damage and yeah you can talk about transfer embargoes but what use would they be in the championship maybe a transfer embargo or some kind of limitations in the Premier League again making it extended is very problematic so one other thing I wanted to ask so when would you actually do the points deduction would you do it the middle of this season or would you this has to be immediately as soon as it's concluded I know that's probably because for the reasons I gave you're just opening up more potential sort of litigations but if they did go down Erling and Gang are not kicking around.

26:18It's going to be complete mayhem. Well, that's another punishment in itself. That is a punishment in itself. One other thing that Johnny referenced in his column is actually the emotional energy, I think he described it as, that changes. The moments, the Aguero moment. I think he's talked about how much you can cherish watching Yaya Turi and David Silva when you know that they were signed and given bumper contracts by a club that was allegedly cheating. How much does this damage those moments, not just for City fans, for us as lovers of football and watchers of the Premier League, and these are some of the best moments that we've seen in the Premier League, and the Premier League as a brand?

27:02Martyn Ziegler: Yeah, for the Premier League it's an interesting one because I think on the one hand, I think winning this case and upholding the rules I think is a really powerful message to send. You know, because I think we're probably all guilty over the last few years of sort of doing that thing where we kind of say, actually, City will get away with this. You know, they'll get their lawyers, you know, they'll have a fine and be a slap on the wrist. And actually, you know, this is just how football works. If it goes through as we sort of expect it, we'll do as it stands now. If the Premier League kind of, then they're upholding the rules.

27:31Martyn Ziegler: They are, you know, ultimately a big beast like Manchester City with their ownership to win that case, I think is a powerful message. but you're right that it does it brings into disrepute everything that's happened you know during this period you know and and and people will always look back on this era i say that again like in terms of when we look back at manchester united over the 90s we look back at the marino and chelsea era you know in the 2000s you have a feeling about it you know you have a feeling about what those teams you know represented you have memories about which matches you know kind of captured those teams for yourself and it's often a personal thing and city i think when you remember those things, you know, when you remember the treble winning team, when you remember your team getting thrashed 8-0 by City and just being completely dismantled, you will have that personal feeling as well, where everything comes with an asterisk now.

28:15Martyn Ziegler: And I think more broadly, abroad, people look at the Premier League as a league of billionaires, you know, where it's a league of wealth, of richness, where you have the best players, but actually where, you know, is it really still in connection with the kind of local clubs? And that will only be reinforced by this, If you look, for example, at Serie A with Cassiopoli in 2006, and actually Juventus managed to keep two or three of their best players, Buffon, Delpierre and Edved for a while. But still, I think the league is still sort of wrestling with that. Juventus are still kind of wrestling with it.

28:44Martyn Ziegler: So I think this cloud will hang over the Premier League for a long time. Cass, 2018-19. City finished with 98 points till Liverpool's 97. I know. I forward that one immediately. An extraordinary run they went on at the end of that season. and the strength of that team. These are great, great moments. That was a titanic battle, but it's now tainted forever. Yeah, it takes me back to many conversations that I've had in my career because there's... Many clubs have overpaid players to get them, to entice them to the football club. It's happened in the history of football at all different levels. Italian football was full of it in the 80s, as you touched on, even in the 90s.

29:26and remembering that period of Liverpool getting 97 and coming second and losing out to Manchester City. I don't know where you go, Gregor, how far you go back and what he achieves. All I know that if you go so, so deep on City and go after them so much, it does create other damage elsewhere. It will do. And I sort of feel, come on, they've done wrong. They're going to get severely punished. We all know that's going to happen. We can't get their memories back. You know, they're there. Liverpool coming second, that was one of the greatest seasons I've seen, that tussle between City and Liverpool.

30:09It was incredible because they were just toe-to-toe right to the end of the season. Liverpool come second. And I don't want to blame all the financial stuff for them coming second. Manchester City produced brilliant teams and there was a lot of people who worked on recruitment within the club, as Tom said earlier, had no involvement in any of this. They don't know the financial aspects that chairman or chief execs or whoever, what they were doing, concocting to get a great team together. They're not responsible for that. They're all responsible for putting out the best performances on the football pitch.

30:42And one more last thing, Bernard Tappé, and I think I've told you this before, when there was all the alleged stuff against Marseille, he then said, what about Monaco? Everyone was like, what do you mean Monaco? They pay foreign players tax-free. No other club in France does that. But it's allowed. Right? Now, that's a rule that clearly, if we said tomorrow, Manchester United or Liverpool, any club you want to pick, can pay foreign players tax-free. Everyone would be in uproar. That's unfair. That's ridiculous. That happened in French football. Well, you could draw a parallel between that and what Manchester City did, saying that the Associated Party transactions and were successful in getting was blocked from other clubs so you know they've attacked the league in another way but Aluc this is a story that's going to run and run and run and run and run and I mean it'd be interesting to see

31:35Martyn Ziegler: this season how it affects right I mean we saw the other day you know how in England Spain you know just everyone who was making mistakes they were connected to City right in some way even Rodri and it was just sort of like we could go coincidence so now just on that one we'll talk about that after the break we will come to It was one of many fascinating strands of England's loss to Spain at Wembley. This is a story that's going to run and run and run and we'll have Jonathan Northcroft and Matt Lawton on the show on Thursday to discuss it even more. After the break, we will turn our attention to the football and England.

32:09See you after the break.

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34:46Welcome back to the Game Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Greg Robertson alongside Tom Alnott, Gary Jacob and Tony Cascarino. And Cass, I forgot you've come ready and armed with a quiz question that you said you were going to bring to the show. So go and give us a hit with it. Okay, okay. Spain beat England 3-2 at the weekend, as we know. I want to know which player scored four goals against Spain in Spain. In Spain? For England. For England. Right, guys, we can't have a tumble with, you know, rolling down the shoes of here. I said, Mick Cass could only ask his question if we would definitely know the answer.

35:22I can't believe you have an answer. What's the error? What's the error? It's much easier than you think. He scored four against Spain for England. In one game? In one game I think we're going to have to admit defeat, Cass Go on, who is it? Karolineke Karolineke When? In the 80s 87, I think it was 87, okay Before my time, mate That's what it is Come on It's not that hard of question Really? Is it that hard of question? No, it's... Yeah Gary... Gary Loyica Well, they were the good old days, maybe Against Spain What was your other one, Cass? The other one was Who was the last team to score three against England in England?

36:05Senegal. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, it's all right. That was a non-inforest, that was a forest ground. Well done, Gary. That was more of a true question. You redeemed us a little bit. Okay, let's talk about England against Spain then. After all the talk about embracing the chaos, was this just a bit too chaotic, Gass? What did you think? What did you make of it? Did you think there were glimmers of promise in this England display or was the chaos mainly in England's defending. Well, I read your column this morning, Gregor, and I thought you were spot on with, you know, the expected goals and we look at that.

36:40But what I saw in my eyes were how many chances Spain had before England scored. And it was chaotic. And England looked as poor as I can remember defensively. And let's face it, Spain, that's the worst I've seen Spain play for a long time as well, defensively. They gifted a couple of goals to England, but the mistakes that England had made in the back line and just generally in play, Spain have got this incredible way of playing that I've never really witnessed before. You know when you have duels in games, you make tackles and you see midfield challenges or a defender challenge and it's hot. Spain look to nick the ball in a challenge.

37:18They do it really well. They just get these toes and little nicks of it and when they play, it's all one touch. It's all fast football. England couldn't handle it, even though England missed a penalty and a 3-1 up. There was no way on earth England weren't going to concede again. No way. Well, that's why Robert, in the Times this morning, is that Thomas Tuchel kind of said afterwards we were a hurricane slip away from winning this game. And I thought that was rather presumptuous given the way they defended before and after that. And England's record at holding out well in front against elite nations.

37:52So there's been a bit of a divide in the sort of opinion of what this game was, how to react to this game after England's performance, Tom, because some people saw a lot of positive things. That's true. They could have gone 3-1 ahead if Harry Kane hadn't missed that penalty. There was a 20-minute period sort of either side of halftime where all those things that he's been talking about, the Premier League strength, direct, dynamic, physical, all those things rocked Spain back on their heels a bit. But then Spain just kind of turned up the dial, had faith in their football. And I thought you saw the gulf again in the end.

38:25Martyn Ziegler: I did as well. You know, I thought Anthony Gordon was talking afterwards and saying, you know, we don't think there is a gap anymore. You know, we think we're there and we could have won this game. And I thought that was, I thought it was likely optimistic. You know, I do agree with you. I think, you know, it was entirely possible that Spain could have been three up after, you know, 10 minutes, you know, and that would have been a different game. I think in a sense, it was sort of a positive performance. In a sense, it was fun. You know, it was good to watch. England were open. They played quite nice football.

38:50Martyn Ziegler: You know, they created chances. It wasn't that kind of game at Wembley where everyone, you know, throws paper airplanes around. So if you wanted to kind of match to kind of reconnect to the fans with Tuchel and the team, then maybe it sort of did that. There was a sense of uplift. I just think more broadly, like this idea about identity and, you know, playing more like a Premier League team. And it seems to me quite self-indulgent, you know, like I sort of think England are slightly learning the wrong lessons from the World Cup. Like I didn't come away from the World Cup thinking England need more chaos.

39:19Martyn Ziegler: Like they need more up and down football. They need everything to be, you know, high octane chances for both teams. I came away thinking they need more control. They need more in-game management. They need more sense. They need to be a cleverer team, not a more stupid team, a more silly team, which is kind of what we're seeing here. Yeah, it's fun to watch. It was good, good telly, right? But is this going to win tournaments? I think England need to play to win. And if they're going to play to win, they need to think, well, how have teams won these major tournaments in recent years? Look how Spain have won, look how France have won, how Argentina have won.

39:48Martyn Ziegler: Look how the coaches talk about those teams. They don't talk about it in terms of, this is how our identity is, this is what we must be. That's club talk. That's kind of what Thomas Tuchel is a club manager. He's talking like a club manager. The way you win a tournament is you play with the players you have. You manage the matches. Because you know what? When it comes to summer in an international tournament, you can't play the Premier League way. We know this. We've talked about this. You can't run and run and run for 90 minutes over the course of six weeks. I know you can't play like Spain. I don't think England should look to play like Spain.

40:16Martyn Ziegler: Spain, it comes from much lower down. It's in their psyche. It's in their DNA. But I do think that doesn't mean that you just surrender all control. England need to have a pivot in midfield. You said Spurs. Spurs need control. England need something in midfield which says, yeah, we're in charge of this match. I didn't see that against Spain. They had so many more gears, didn't they, Spain? Whenever they needed an extra gear, they had it. It was there. Even in the spells where England were on top, you were in front of Spain had another gear that they could just slip back into it. And Tom wrote a really good piece a few months ago about how the Spanish players are from young and how that kind of the midfielder and what's really important for them in front of the back four.

41:00And it feels like whenever you watch England, the first touch of the players is not good enough. You know, to get the ball in the right spot that he played a second pass correctly, the right angle. And when you watch the Spanish players, that first touch was always right on Saturday, wasn't it? It just took them into the right place. The second touch was a pass for a goal or a current upper chance. And that all strikes me as a difference between the Spanish players and the English players at a very basic level. And unless you have that, you're not going to win the really top games. You both played in the game.

41:35How much is it a difference if you have a player whose body shape is right, whose first touch is right, whose angled passes are right? Everything's right. you as the defender it's a lot harder for you isn't it? You're right, Tom's piece was really good on that subject, it's kind of nuanced maybe Eli Anderson if he was brought up in a Spanish academy, he clearly has the ability to play that way but it's not as deeply ingrained and I think Gary's right, England had two shots from the 70th minute onwards Spain just controlled the game really apart from a couple of set pieces that ultimately was the biggest learning from this is that Spain can still have that control and England's chaos organised sometimes is probably not going to beat the best opposition still.

42:22And the other point you made in your piece about the defenders, you think, well, who are the England centre-backs then? It's Gahy, Braithwaite. Konza. Konza. Stones of his fit. Stones of his fit. It's not often. The other question is that where are the England centre-backs coming through? We were meant to be top-notch. OK, you could excuse Gahy because that was an unusual error, but equally... Why is he making that error? The error also was Nico O 'Reilly's ball inside after two minutes with his back to the play that Lamell's already touched. And going on to talk about what you've just touched on there with Gary and what Tom's saying about Spanish football is I can remember playing against Clarence Ziedorf, Edgar Davids, Frank Reichardt.

43:03Their touch was unbelievable because they always took it to a way. They are exceptional players. But I remember thinking that at the time they always choose the right option. And just on this chaotic thing, what was the previous game that England played before they played Spain? And as much as they got accused of, oh, they didn't want to go out and play the game, France, it was a 6-4 game. England conceded four in that game. They were 15 goals in their last six games now. Exactly. They look like a team. I know we sort of joke spursy, but England have got such a poor defensive record of late. They can go through, I guarantee they can go through qualifications, Nations, Nation League or qualifying for a tournament, hardly conceding a goal and probably getting max points.

43:47They can do that. But when you get to elite level, and I found out that myself, when playing against these elite players are the biggest nations, it's a different animal completely. So is this the thing? I mean, is it, you know, we're talking about risk and reward of his approach and trying to play a man-to-man high press. There was a moment in the first half when Mark Gahey was, like, playing almost in a number 10 because he'd followed Danny Olmo. all the way in they played a long ball Konza missed it and there was no centre halves and Torres was allowed to run straight through is there wisdom in that?

44:18I know clearly England got their second goal kind of from that but Riley won the ball a kind of high regain ran forward crossed for Kane but is there is there actually any merit in that approach against Spain the world champions?

44:32Martyn Ziegler: I mean it's risky and it didn't come off because Spain scored three away from home and they could have scored a lot more and I still come back to the point what you're preparing for here. Like, are you trying to win a game here in a three-week international break in September? Or are you trying to prepare a team that can win a World Cup or a Euros? And I don't think you can win a tournament playing like that. Just physically, emotionally, I don't think you can win a tournament playing that kind of football. We're talking here as if England are in a mess. They're a good team. They've got really good players.

45:02Martyn Ziegler: And when I did that Spain piece, I remember talking to a couple of Spanish coaches and they said, don't tell me that Declan Rice isn't a good player. We all here know that Declan Rice is technically a brilliant footballer. You're not saying that England don't have good players. It's about tweaking the dial. England got to a semifinal only a couple of months ago. They're close. They are really close. This is a really good team that has shown that over a period of time. I just think there's a danger here that you kind of throw the baby out with the bathwater, that you got to this point where you were in sight, where they could have beaten Argentina.

45:32Martyn Ziegler: Tweak it a little bit, where you make the team a little bit smarter, a bit clever, a bit more organized in certain moments, a little bit more kind of, you know, belief in your own ability and identity. Don't make the whole team, you know, a chaotic team in search of being like the Premier League. What did France do against Spain? They were a chaotic team. Spain just controlled the whole game from the start of it to the end. That's what they did to them. I can remember Brazil in 82. What were they? A chaotic team. Unbelievable sign. Fantastic team to watch. Chaotic team. They got knocked out. so at that point if England become that I don't think they'll be very good as a chaotic team I just don't I think they're very capable of conceding a huge number of goals like we've just touched on in recent games Positives though you're trying to lean this on positives there are positives Anthony Gordon was standing there wasn't he?

46:20Berlin Gordon looks like his move has really elevated him he's really got four assists for Barcelona and he took his finish so well and he looks like the move I mean you You know more about Spain than us, Tom. He obviously looks like he's kind of reveled in the kind of stature, one of the biggest clubbers in the world wants him. And then now his shoulders are up and it feels like he's a completely different player.

46:48Martyn Ziegler: Yeah, I mean, it feels like confidence. I think Gordon suddenly feels like I'm a Barcelona player. And you can see that in him, the way he's talking, the way he's playing. I mean, I think they love him in Barcelona because of the way, ironically, what we're talking about, he plays for the team. Gordon hasn't been scoring loads of goals for Barca, but they love the way he presses and he runs and he's kind of part of the unit. And I think you can see that, you know, when he's playing for England now, the challenge for him is almost just like it is playing for Barca, to be honest, is to kind of get his numbers up when he's scoring more like 10, 15 goals.

47:14Martyn Ziegler: He becomes that kind of player. But I don't think we're debating anymore whether Gordon is a starter in this England team, which we were maybe a few months ago. You know, Gordon versus Rashford. I think Gordon got that nailed on now. And Bellingham played very well on Saturday. There were some, there were positives. So is that a coincidence of two best players on the pitch playing in Spain? Let's come back to your other point earlier. Was it a coincidence that Nico Riley made a mistake, Mark Gaiman made a mistake, Elliot Anderson had a couple of uncharacteristic misplaced passes, one that could have led to a goal.

47:45Any others? Trafford. Is that a coincidence or are we just adding two and two and making 50? Yeah, I do. I think that. I can't buy that, Gregor, that what's happened to Manchester City affected their performance on the weekend against Spain. It's a hard one to prove. Can you prove it to me, then? No, no, you definitely can't prove it. But you were both players. If you were Man City players now, when you then play Man City in a few weeks' time, it surely will be on your minds of thinking, what's going to happen this season? Are we going to get relegated? What's my future going to be? do I want to be here if we're chasing points at the bottom of the table so you know that surely is going to have some sort of you were both players it would be disconcerting but I don't I think more likely the thing that made Gehe play badly was him being asked to step into midfield to play or to step in to follow Danny Almo playing midfield and Nico O 'Reilly trying to play out from the back when he's been pressed by six players in that corner of the pitch I think actually Not when City play again, though.

48:51But when City play again next. There's going to be an added peak of pressure. I wouldn't be surprised if you see a reaction of positivity as in their performances. I wouldn't be surprised if that happens at Manchester City. They'll go, let's kick on and let's shut people up by what a good team we are. And although that's not going to happen, they'll show what they're capable of. Well, everything comes back to Man City in the end at the moment, doesn't it? Tom, I think let's finish with a look at a piece you wrote for the Sunday Times at the weekend about how academies are using street football to unearth the next Luminumal.

49:27Luminumal is in shimmering form. Also great in terms of his pressing as well. I mean, the number of chances he created and obviously he scored his goal from that as well. But the gist of your piece is that clubs are now kind of, because academies are so regimented and players are spending all of their time there, they're almost trying to go back to the past to try and find ways of creating that sense of fun and creativity in their players.

49:53Martyn Ziegler: Yeah, I mean, I think it's kind of in the context that there's a recognition that the player's being brought through now. It's quite sort of homogenous. They have quite similar traits based on kind of possession and shape and structure. And also that the way the kind of tactical trend is that because teams are so sort of set up to play, you know, according to position and structure, that you kind of maybe do need more game changers. That the next step could be we need more unpredictability, more spontaneity, more players who are those kind of maverick players, Ryan Shirky's, you know, those kind of players who might be able to unlock these defences.

50:24Martyn Ziegler: So I think that's it's sort of trickling down. Like you're hearing the more the most kind of forward thinking clubs are trying to kind of bring street football back in the building. Because as much as academies, you know, are so structured and scientific and have thousands of staff and different departments and pristine pitches. The kind of thing that I think a lot of football strategists are questioning is, you know, how can we get some of those other traits? that ultimately you can only really learn in the city squares, in the parks and the playgrounds. So who are they trying to replicate these things?

50:52Martyn Ziegler: Yeah, and it's interesting because you've got, for example, Ajax, they've got this concrete pit, which is about the size of this table. I don't know how many people can't see. It's two metres across, and you've got these two kids versus another two kids, and they've got to score these tiny goals. And Feyenoord have installed three pitches. One is sand, one is concrete, one is grass, and the grass one gets left by the ground staff because they want it to be sort of, you know, bumpy and unpredictable. Palmyra, for example, you know, where Esteval, they sent me a picture of basically have this kind of secret pitch and on the sign it sort of says, no coaches allowed, you know, a space for autonomy and flair, you know, and you see Esteval walking out.

51:28Martyn Ziegler: And by the way, like in the background, it's just a complete mound of dirt, you know, it's the kind of pitch you'd play on in your local park. And I think it's part of this step that I think it's not about, you know, turning academies into terrible places to play. But it is about reintroducing that strand where ultimately if you want to encourage players to be more spontaneous, more skilful, to try things, it's about expression, about feeling like you have your own personality, then you have to reintroduce some of these street football elements. I found that really interesting because it goes back to the point of the type of pressing that Spain do.

52:01It's not about real hard challenges. It's about reading where the player's touch might go, taking the chance sometimes on gambling but also trying to nick it off the opposition. It's not full of all these intense yellow card tackles, is it? It's not that with Spain. Is this something that's been replicated or maybe replicated in the Premier League as well?

52:21Martyn Ziegler: Yeah, I think so. I mean, there are clubs in the Premier League who are doing similar things. I mean, futsal is very ubiquitous now in Premier League clubs and all around. And it's interesting that Spain, because I sort of said to someone in Spain, Real Betis, I sort of said, well, because in my mind it's how do you square this thing where we know that France, you know, have all these brilliant street football players and the culture there has been part of, you know, Barcalá and Mbappe and Dembele and fantastic dribblers with speed. But if you think about Spain, it's kind of more about cohesion, right, and teamwork.

52:50Martyn Ziegler: And so I said to, you know, this guy, Bezzi said, Spanish football doesn't seem to me like street football. He said, yeah, but it's not all about trickery. You know, it's about decision making, about seeing gaps, you know, about being under pressure all the time and being able to manage the ball, like very, a bit like what Gary's saying, every touch matters. so I think you know in some senses it's it's about the space and the surface but for example like Benfica they they're you know making the kids play with tennis balls you know and they sort of pump the balls down so that they're too flat or that they really rock hard it's like it's the kind of ball you might find in the road you're under a car and kids play with and it's just interesting that you have these academies now that have more science more knowledge more staff than ever and actually they're kind of trying to turn back the clock a bit.

53:28Martyn Ziegler: Brazil is what they did many moons ago. Oranges, juggle oranges, play with oranges. Do you think managers will accept players who come through who may give their ball away too much because they're trying stuff as opposed to another player who may give it away less and a bit more predictable? You can think of Eze at Arsenal, for example, who will give it away a lot. You're not always totally sure Mikel really trusts him in that sense because of that. do you think it's down in the managers who maybe need to kind of, both of you, to change their mindset as well about the type of players they're willing to have in their team?

54:08You know, you saw it in the World Cup when people were saying, oh, he gave the ball away X number of times. I thought, but that's because he's trying something. You know, he's giving it away because the attacking player is trying to play that pass. It might not always come off that pass, but they're trying to find that pinpoint pass. Isn't that more important sometimes than kind of having 90 %? people quote these numbers for no real reason.

54:29Martyn Ziegler: Yeah, and I think that's the way the game is now. And that's why people are always trying to think, what's the next step? What are teams going to be looking for in five years' time if we've got our age group at under 15s? What are we going to need in three or four years? Big lump up front. That wasn't good for that. Full back, they can't run. I don't know who you're talking about there, Cass. Anyway, you can find Tom's excellent piece on the Times website. loads more international football in midweek it wasn't a great start for Jurgen Klopp as Germany manager we spoke about on Thursday's show lost to Greece at the weekend Kylian Mbappe scored the only goal for France and Zinedine Zidane's first game as head coach and then came off injured and he's not alone a lot of injuries guys Alexander Isak Kai Avers Cody Gakpo Bruno Fernandes Patrick Dorgu Broby and Ballard at Sunderland this could be a running theme from this mammoth three week international broadcast and And November 1 to come as well.

55:26And November 1. I bet managers are pulling their air out. Honestly, it's littered. We always have this conversation about how much football is too much. And I think we've gone well past that. We really had in many ways. Where would it end? I just think the cash cow of international football plus club football and the demands is the reason why so many Premier League clubs have such big squads. Well, we'll be back to discuss all of that and the increasing fallout from the Manchester City story with Johnny Northcroft and Matt Lawton on Thursday. Tom, Gary, Tony, thank you very much for joining me.

55:59We'll hope to see you on Thursday.

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56:46We are famous for our innovation and really saying, right, how can we get something brand new to market ahead of everybody else? From The Times and The Sunday Times, join me, Hannah Previtt. And me, Dominic O 'Connell, for conversations from the world of business and entrepreneurship. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts or find our channel on YouTube by searching Times Business.