Infantino clings on and a big fortnight on Merseyside

0:07Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. FIFA's president clings on for now. Despite calls from governing bodies and legendary players for Gianni Infantino to quit, he remains determined to fight on despite his failed plans to sell stakes in the World Cup. I'm Tom Clark and in part one of today's show, I'm joined by Martin Ziegler, our chief sports reporter and the man who has led the way on this story since he broke it exclusively last week. Martin, I want to go back to last week, not all the way back to your original exclusive on the Tuesday, but to the last time you and I chatted on Friday.

0:45It had been a remarkable couple of days, but we hadn't quite yet got to the point where FIFA themselves had scrapped those plans. that moment came later that night you and I were chatting over message at one o 'clock in the morning probably even later and just just just tell us your view you know in your experience of how significant a moment that was in terms of covering these big organizations for someone to have put a plan together and for it to have been revealed and scrapped so quickly yeah I mean a kind of bit of a flavor of the European Super League wasn't it you know these sort of big revolutionary football plans being put forward and they sort of collapse within a few days is that it had the same sort of flavour in a way um this was a slightly different in that it was um actually coming from the fifa president himself not not like in a breakaway group or so um i think i think that is slightly unprecedented really uh and i think for many people you know with all the sort of there's been obviously a huge amount of interest in this globally around the the plan to sell off the world cup to private investors or a stake of it anyway and um also around infantino himself and his future but i think for for most people um the fact that the the world cup is is now protected and it's not going to be subject to sort of such rigorous commercial um access to perhaps changing what this tournament is in the future.

2:23I think for many people that has been the most important development of this whole week. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, lots of conversations after the Super League. Again, another story that you had broken yourself. You say there that there'll be a kind of relief amongst football fans about this plan from FIFA. Do you think it is done now? Do you think it is off the table forever, future presidents and everything? Do you think this moment puts a full stop at the end of anyone ever trying to sell the World Cup? Yes, because, you know, one only has to gauge the reaction from, you know, the people in the street, the fans, everybody, media, administrators, prime ministers.

3:02I mean, you know, we've had both Andy Burnham, the British prime minister, and the Canadian prime minister saying this was a terrible plan to never have happened. and questions now should be asked around Infantini's future. So I think when you get that level of reaction, whoever becomes FIFA president in the future, and who knows in 25 years' time, but certainly in the medium to short term, I can't see anybody ever risking anything like that again. yeah a big relief for football fans all around the world uh that idea just before we talk about infantino and his future and the things that have happened this week all the comments that have been made and where we stand now just give us a sense for infantino as a person and within this world that he lives in was this his first defeat you know we've talked so often in the times pages and on this podcast both with you and your colleagues about all the things that you know depending on your framing of it, FIFA have got away with.

4:09Various things in the World Cup that people have said, well, yeah, we don't like that. But was this his first defeat and being such a significant one? It's not his first defeat. No, he was very keen on bringing in the Biennial World Cup. Pushed really hard for that. In the end, he sort of... I mean, he always positioned it as not being his, you know, this wasn't his choice. That's something he wasn't doing. I think it was a proposal being put forward by the Saudi Football Federation for this to be looked at. But there was no doubt that FIFA got behind it in a big way and were pushing really hard.

4:54you know FIFA kind of former internationals were lined up to try and support it and so he so he was defeated on that but he positioned it as you know this wasn't his sort of personal ambition so or even his idea so he kind of got away with it and also he tried to arrange private investment back in 2018 with the what was then a sort of proposed new club world cup and a proposed new global nations league uh and those things that they were blocked by uefa and that was um that that was a sort of defeat for him as well but it never didn't catch the sort of public imagination like this has so he was able to sail through it this is a very very bitter and public defeat for him and has caused immense ructions within FIFA and the football community across the world in a way nothing else has.

5:58Yeah, let's get listeners up to date then on some of those ructions because there's been so many comments this week since Monday, as you say, once the kind of scrapping had happened, attention turned, as we alluded to when we last chatted on Friday, to his future, Gianni Infantino's future. of the various many many comments that have been made and I alluded to them in the intro there about federations various luminaries within FIFA former players as well getting involved now which do you think have been the most telling the most significant and the most damning for Infantino I think the kind of internal criticism from the chief operating officer Kevin Lamour the kind of number three in the organization that was very very damaging Arsene Wenger saying it was absolutely necessary for this proposal to be withdrawn that he'd been kept in the dark about it i think that was fairly significant as well so um and then also his chief advisor in the u.s carlos cardero resigning in protest all those those internal things i think were very um very um damaging to a sort of power base within FIFA.

7:08And of course, then, all the European countries rising up against him and also with then associated opposition from CONCACAF in Asia. Just coming back to an idea that you mentioned there, this was Alison Rudd mentioned this on our most recent podcast. Is there part of this to do with how he put this together and how secretive he was and how he didn't seem to loop in anyone within FIFA it's all well and good us as football fans and people on the outside going well this is a terrible plan but it does strike me slightly as a cynic going well actually his main problem seems to be he just didn't tell enough people would that be fair?

7:49Well I think people don't like to be you know if you're the leader of a major football confederation you don't really want to find out about it through reading the times although obviously we like telling them about it you know you want to feel that you're going to be part of a process. So what actually happened is Infantino kept this project very, very close. So basically a couple of fairly low-ranking FIFA staff members were designated to sort of lead it from a FIFA point of view. So, you know, not Kevin Lemo, not the General Secretary, Mateusz Grafstrom not any FIFA council members not any FIFA vice president so I guess his rationale for that is he wanted to keep it under wraps and I think he was worried that if word got out then Europe and other confederations would immediately move to block it So he wanted to get his plan in place where he could offer these financial incentives to the member associations to vote for it.

9:06And then he could sort of launch it. But obviously his plan was slightly scuppered. Certainly was. I mean, my last question to you last Friday was what will Infantino do now? And you said then you think he might play for time. He certainly has been doing that. What exactly has he been up to in the last couple of days in terms of his movements and his decision making in terms of who he's been reaching out to? Yeah, so he'd been in Morocco, called a meeting of his loyal members of the management committee. So these are the sort of staff of FIFA who haven't criticised him effectively. Apart from Matthias Grafstrom, who did attend, even though he had sent a fairly critical email to the FIFA staff members.

9:59So he called them together in Morocco and Rabat and put a sort of fairly punchy statement, but also apologising several times for the mistakes that he had made around the project, the FIFA Ford Enterprise project, which is selling off stakes in the World Cup to private investors, admitted Erwin's mistake. He said there's going to be a review of those mistakes. I'm not quite sure what purpose that serves. But very much saying, you know, it's business as usual. We continue. And so now the ball is, I would say, back in the court of UEFA and CONCACAF and Asia to see how they respond. Yeah I mean we're recording this on Thursday just as a final then round up for listeners where do you think this goes now?

10:51What would it take? We've had so many comments both in FIFA and from big names in the game about his future what would it take? Or does he cling on to these elections that you've mentioned on the show before? What would be your summary of where we go next Martin? Well the thing about that I've always thought about Infantino resigning is in a way that there's nothing in it for him to resign. Right. His life is FIFA. If he resigns, what is he going to do? So is it worth him risking staying on and losing in an election? For him absolutely, he can see that. For him, that's probably the only pathway because he he'll probably hope so maybe I can you know recover all these people you know who previously supported me and I can get back and we you know we can um all these all the people who deserted us perhaps we can you know we can persuade them to come back to into the fold uh and I'm sure there'll be various strategies much of it revolving around you know money that to be distributed to the member associations and he'll be thinking there's this proposal to increase the world cup to 64 teams which is due to be decided by fifa is that something which could persuade some countries to support him um so there'll be all these things going around in his head but yeah he's been paid six million dollars a year which obviously for him perhaps he doesn't think he should get more but anyway still quite a lot of money to turn down by resigning so i that is why i think he he wants to stay i mean we'll see what happens if the if there's a kind of governance boycott by the other confederations to try and effectively make fifa dysfunctional until he goes that might have some effect but i kind of think it's going to sort of drift on to these elections and then he'll face a challenge from a kind of unity candidate which his opponents will sort of draw somebody who they will back to run against him.

13:15Absolutely fascinating. Great to hear from the man behind the biggest story in football Martin Ziegler. Thank you very much for joining us on the Game Podcast. Make sure listeners you're keeping track with the very latest on the Times website. In part two I'll be chatting to Paul Joyce about Liverpool, Everton and his thoughts on the new Premier League season. We'll be back just after this break.

13:42Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I'm joined for part two by our Northern football correspondent, Paul Joyce, to talk all things Merseyside. Paul, let's start with Liverpool. We're discussing them on Monday's show with Alison and Tony Cascarino and talking about this pre-season with Andoni Iraiola, obviously it's a hugely challenging season last season for Liverpool in every respect and new manager, lots of change in the playing staff, big names like Mo Salah leaving. How would you sum up where Liverpool are right now with about two weeks and a bit to go to the new season?

14:20I think Liverpool, it feels like they're unprepared really at the moment to go into the new season. As you said then, there was so much turmoil. last year with the sort of sacking of Arna Slott and the deterioration in the performances from the previous season that took everybody by surprise really, that it feels that there's an awful lot of work for Andoni Areola to do and part of that needs to be supplemented by new signings. It just can't all be on the manager coming in and waving a magic wand. and I think so far it's been a frustrating summer for Liverpool in terms of they signed Victor Munoz from Osasuna, which was very much an areola-driven signing.

15:09Jeremy Jacquet was signed in January from Rennes with a view to joining this summer. But there's been frustration really in terms of trying to strengthen in wide areas, which has become a necessity following Mo Salah's departure. They were originally targeting Yandir Mande, who was the priority signing. But never really got near to that deal in terms of Leipzig made it pretty clear that they wanted€130 million. And Liverpool bid€100 million,€80 million guaranteed and€20 million in add-ons. And that very quickly became clear that that wasn't going to be enough. allied to the fact that the player then sort of said he preferred PSG and then he said he preferred Real Madrid where he's going to.

16:01It just felt a little bit strange, that transfer, or that whole saga in that Liverpool never got close to a player who ultimately didn't really want to come to him. They've since pivoted to Bradley Barkler, the Paris Saint-Germain winger, but they've hit similar problems there in that Pete Russell, our Chelsea correspondent who's got good links with PSG, he revealed a couple of weeks ago that they've set the asking price as€170 million, which is around£145 million. Now Liverpool have said they won't go to that level. So again, they're stuck in this little bit of an impasse. and whereas everybody has saw last summer and has seen again this summer where Newcastle are placed in the food chain, I'm referring to ESAC last year and obviously Guimara's Tonali this summer there was always that expectation that Newcastle might sort of compromise their stance on and accept a lower offer I don't see that with PSG so much or there's not there's not the sort of pressure on PSG to to fold as there was to seek a compromise and it just feels like there's a big gap in the valuations and all this together is causing a lot of angst amongst the fan base together with injuries to players and so there is a sense that Iriola has got a huge job on his hands and needs a bit more help, really.

17:44Yeah, really interesting talking about some of those players that they've been linked with. We'll come back to maybe the positions that you feel they need to focus on in the coming weeks before the end of the window. But what have you made of Iriola in these first weeks? As you say there, the fan base kind of a bit frustrated at the lack of movement with transfers, but he was a popular appointment, wasn't he? You were there at his unveiling. We've obviously heard from him a little bit as well from our colleague Ian Whittle, who was out on tour with Liverpool for a few weeks. What have you made in terms of some of the things he said and in terms of how he's gone about positioning himself as a Liverpool manager?

18:19Because it's a huge job. He's one of the biggest clubs in Europe, one of the biggest clubs in the world. Regardless, before we even get into signings and tactics and last season, being Liverpool manager is a big job, full stop. What have you made of his first year? I think he said all the right things that you would want him to say. he's talked about immersing himself in the city, he's talked about loving low blocks, which was obviously a big problem last season for Arna Slott. He's talked about playing intense, you know, vertical football. But the trouble I have with clubs in pre-seasons, if we go back to Arna Slott, when Arna Slott took over from Jurgen Klopp, everything that he said then was sort of taken on as a positive so he held meetings with Mo Salah and Virgil van Dijk and he was challenging them he was saying and Mo Salah tells the story of how Slot showed him a video of him in of his body language in training and how when it wasn't so good the other players followed what Mo Salah did and when it was good they also followed, you know, when he was maybe more intense, they followed that and Slott said, with this Mo Salah, we can't win anything and with that Mo Salah we can win a lot and Salah was explaining how this was all really good and all you know, he was grateful for the challenge and then six months later after they've won the title or yeah, six months after they've won the title he gets dropped for a couple of games in six days and Slott's the worst thing in the world so just because I've been doing it for so long I always take a bit of with a pinch of salt the stuff that is said in pre-season players saying you know the intensity is back and well you had the chance to be intense last season run around a bit more, you can't just hide behind the manager so I think he has made the right impression I think everybody's

20:38looking forward to see what his team brings and I think that starting point is really important for Liverpool because that connection was lost at the end of last season. People were turning up at Anfield and didn't want to watch what Liverpool meant. They didn't like the team. So I think there's a disconnect that was evident last season as being repaired to an extent simply by a new man coming in. But that's not going to last if the results aren't there. And that comes back to the question that you posed at the start about how ready are Liverpool for the start of the season. And they've basically got 24 players in their squad.

21:21When everybody's available, it doesn't look too bad. Although I still think Iriola has a hell of a lot of work to do in getting the best out of a Verts and Isak combination, as we spoke about earlier this week ourselves. getting more from Kirkes. Let's see the Kirkes that he had playing under him at Bournemouth and persuaded Liverpool to pay£40 million for him. What's Gravenbirch going to be this season? Is he an anchor midfield or is he a runner? What's happening with McAllister? So there's so many questions that he has to answer. I think it's going to be fascinating how this all plays out. And Liverpool have recruited him because they think he can improve players.

22:06but going back to what I said previously, that is the exact same reason why they recruited Arna Slott, because they thought there was untapped potential in Jurgen Klopp's squad and that Slott would get the best out of them. So I think it's a long-winded way of saying we just need to see how the results do that, because that is going to shape everything, especially at a big club like Liverpool. true yeah I know as you say we're in that kind of cliche territory of if he can get the best out of some of those signings from last summer you're in the territory of oh he's like yeah like a new signing type thing um you know you mentioned in your first answer some of the positions and players that they've been linked with particularly in that wide area what what you know it's always difficult to you know guess names and things but what areas of the pitch do you think they need to strengthening, obviously we've talked, you've mentioned already with Barclay and Diamande, a wide player seems pretty key.

23:02Are there other areas of the pitch that they would be looking, that you think they need to strengthen? Yeah, well this is, I mean, it's interesting you touch on that because this is the sort of, also what's occupying a lot of the sort of fans' attention up here is the makeup of the defence really and there's a lot of sort of concern about, I mean, and Iriella himself has said that they're thin defensively and it's basically prompted by the problems that they had at right back last season were Connor Bradley got injured a serious knee injury in January and they were constantly having to chop and change Sir Bosley played there Joe Gomez played there Curtis Jones played there now Bradley is going to miss the start of the season and there hasn't been a and so there's a lot of focus on that right back area you've got Jeremy Frimpong available but he was injured a lot himself last season and seemed a bit more attack-minded.

24:03Didn't seem a really good solution at right-back. So I think because of the Bradley injuries happened sort of eight months ago, people are wondering, well, why haven't you moved on a right-back and why haven't you signed one? And in Liverpool's defence, it is a little bit complicated because they think so much of Connor Bradley. they want to keep the pathway open for him the flip side of it is that he's somebody who's had a history of a lot of injuries some hamstring injuries before this last serious one so I think people are concerned that all the chopping and changing and how the right side of Liverpool's team became a weak point whereas previously when you had Trent and Salah there it was one of the strengths of the team at the moment you've got no recognized right winger other than Chiesa and at the moment you've got no convincing right back other than because Connor Bradley's injured so that's causing a lot of sort of angst but if you're trying to keep the pathway open for Connor Bradley it is difficult to just go out and buy a right back both in terms of how much money you'd have to spend how much money do you spend on that player if you don't really want him to play every week and also what kind of sell is that to a new player coming in it's a difficult balancing act do you just go all out and say we're going to replace Conor Bradley and if he comes back gets up to speed and challenging all well and good but how much is that going to cost don't forget Liverpool have spent 550 million since last May.

25:49If they've spent another 100, say, on Barclay, which won't happen at that price, but just say he came in, that's 650 million they've spent in basically 15 months. And there's still lots of questions about the makeup of the squad. That's pretty remarkable for me. How the money has been spent is going to become a big issue as well. And just to add to that, The other concern is the centre-back situation where Joe Gomez has not been robust in recent seasons. He's going to miss the start of the season again. You've got two young players who they rate really highly and want to give opportunities to.

26:31But Giovanni Leone did his ACL last September and will miss the start of the season. Jeremy Jacque was signed in January with a view to July. he then, as soon as Liverpool signed him he dislocated his shoulder, playing for Rennes he's had surgery he's still feeling a little bit of discomfort in that, he's not played in pre-season and because Canati didn't sign his new deal and left on a free that's basically just left you with Virgil van Dijk so that's caused angst amongst the fan base as well these are problems that could have been known for a long time could rear and that there is still no sort of solution for the short term and that's what's causing a lot of the concern at the moment so I think defensively there's a case for at the very least a right back who can play centre back and then if they brought that player in it would bolster the squad and make everybody feel a little bit better I mean, there's been lots of names mentioned.

27:40Jed Spence has been mentioned, but, you know, as ever with Liverpool, there's a myriad of names. But Esri Konza, for example, would be one. But he would cost£60 million. And why is Esri Konza going to move from Aston Villa when you're not really counting on him? You just want him to... Because you want Connor Bradley, Jeremy Jacqui or Leone and Van Dijk to be your defence. Really interesting, I mean with these days when you're talking about money spent you also have to talk about outgoings as well and potential money made will the Liverpool hierarchy have people in mind that they're trying to make a bit of money on?

28:21Curtis Jones for example? Yeah I think Curtis is an interesting one obviously that Inter Milan interesting and has been long running now started in January when they wanted to take him on loan and Liverpool weren't prepared at that point to consider a loan move and obviously still aren't they want€40 million euros for a player who's now in the final year of his contract that's basically based on um conor gallagher's move from atletico madrid to tottenham uh last january they're based liverpool are basing their valuation around that in the belief that that conor that um they feel curtis jones is a better player than conor gallagher um inter have had one or two sort of nibbles this summer and Liverpool have sort of been irritated by them because their valuation is set and yet Inter have come with stuff like £21 million and stuff like that so I think that's still one to watch because it's felt like Curtis's mind is almost maybe he feels maybe be better for a fresh start in Italy Iriola said he's going to play Virts as a number 10 so So the two other positions in midfield, Subozlai is a guarantee because of the energy that he brings to a team.

29:41And then you've got maybe Graven Birch, McAllister, and there's a teenager, Trey Naoni, who's done very well in pre-season. And I think if Curtis was to go, Naoni would get more minutes. I think Iriola is very much of a mindset. he's ready and he's you know let's try and blood him a bit more and then another outgoings Federico Chiesa still at the club, two Premier League starts in two years Wattaro Endo is coming into the final year of his contract, didn't really play under slot, but these aren't sort of players who are going to raise lots of money which to your point is another reason maybe why the transfer expenditure or the transfer dealings have been a bit more difficult this summer because Liverpool have spent so much in the previous year.

30:43Just as a final one on Liverpool before we talk about Everton, you and I and all of us on the Times Sport team talk about this modern football world in which we operate in where managers and clubs don't have much patience from certain sets of their supporters. But just from your take, Paul, as a man who's been on the patch for such a long time, what do you think the expectation is for Liverpool and near Ayola this season? It's a fascinating Premier League with so much change, so much managerial change. The big beast of Pep Guardiola has gone, following Jurgen Klopp, of course. We've now got this amazing scenario of which Mikel Arteta is the longest-serving manager, despite being very young in his career still.

31:26Do Liverpool fans and do Liverpool as a club see that as an opportunity and say, well, we've got to be challenging for the title? Or is there an acceptance that it's still a transitional season after everything? Yeah, I think the latter. I think there's not much talk of winning the mountain of title challenge at present. But to be honest, there probably wasn't when Slott came in because replacing Jürgen Klopp was seen as a huge task. and then the season, they got momentum and never came away from that really until the title was effectively won. They struggled at the end of the season, but they'd made good everything they wanted to achieve.

32:08So I think there is a little bit of sort of pessimism around, I don't know if that's the right word, but probably concern around because of the makeup of the squad and the issues that have been playing to see haven't been resolved as yet. So I think everybody, I think, and I know this sounds a bit like dodging the question in a way, but I think everybody just, certainly at Anfield, just wants to be sort of go back to the game whereby you come away feeling you've enjoyed it and be entertained. And as I say, that was lost. last season and I've got to say I thought I didn't like the way slot was treated by some of the the sort of fans um I think we I think we've seen that um infiltrates across football now and the lack of patience is yeah is a big issue and previously Liverpool fans were always above that and maybe it's a new generation whose tolerance is a lot lower but it wasn't Liverpool to me, some of the things that happened last season towards Slott I mean, if he was stuck in a rut or if he couldn't get the best out of the team, it wasn't through a lack of sort of trying and yeah, it'd be interesting I think there's a lot of good will behind Iriola but yeah, I think there's

33:47more modest expectations at the moment. Yeah, really interesting to see if Andoni Iraiola can get the Anfield crowd behind him in these early weeks. Let's finish with just a couple of questions on Everton. Obviously, starting similarly, really, an interesting season last season in their new wonderful stadium. Some high moments, but lots of indifferent moments, I think would probably be the word how I'd describe it. where would you sum up where they are now again that kind of same opening framing really for two weeks and a bit to go till the start of the new season what's the mood like amongst the Everton camp both in the club and the fan base?

34:26I think there's still a bit of a hangover from last season to be honest I mean when they beat Chelsea at the end of March at Hill Dickinson they were right in for you know European places it was in the palm of the hand And people were sort of talking about whispering Champions League at that point. And then they finished the season by not winning any of the last seven games and dropped out of the European picture, which was such a crushing blow for the club, really, because there's so many English teams in Europe now that when you're trying to then compete for signings and you can't offer, you know, a Europa Conference campaign at the very least, or Europa League, then players today, they want to test themselves in Europe.

35:17So that's a real disadvantage for Everton. There's a bit of, the signings that they've made to me show that they've not got lots of money at their disposal, which again is interesting. Hayden Hackney, initial 16.5, which could be an astute signing, Championship Player of the Year. That's the sort of blueprint David Moyes went for in his first spell at the club, you know, 2002 onwards. Tyreek George, they have made permanent from a loan spell last season, but they negotiated the clause on that down to a cheaper option. They've just signed Christian Norgard from Arsenal for£7 million. A lot of focus up here on attempts to get a right back in because it's almost become a

36:13there's been you know Seamus Coleman has left the club now and the absence a little bit like Liverpool in a way the absence of filling that right back role has sort of dominated sort of the thoughts of the supporters in a way they've been linked with a lot of players, Alistair Johnston, sorry, Celtic being the latest. But I mean, recruiting a right back isn't going to be a silver bullet for Everton's issues and they need more creativity in the final third of the pitch. There's still talk of Jack Grealish coming back on loan, which would give a boost to everyone. That's likely to be at the end of the window though, because he's not fit at the moment.

37:05he's still coming back from the broken foot he sustained in January while on loan at Everton. So even if he does sign at the end of the window, it's going to be a while before he's sort of match fit again. So I think there's a bit of pressure on David Moyes, which again feels a bit unfair, but that's very much modern football. I think Everton need to get off to a good start just to quieten down the sort of noise that's still there from the end of last season. And I think the ownership, the freaking group, there's going to be sort of questions on them now. This is the fourth transfer window they've had with Everton.

37:50They've basically been active in two of those. They had to spend money last summer because the club lost a lot of players who were out of contract.

38:03I think there's a little bit of sense of where is their ambition, really. Dan Freakin, who's the figurehead of the group's not been to the new ground yet, which is not the greatest of looks. I think a fully fit Jared Branthrate would be a big plus for them. And if they can keep Illiman and Dai, who has been linked with Al Hilal, has rejected several contract offers from Everton, then that would be another plus but equally Everton aren't in a position whereby if somebody does offer 70 million for Ndi I think that would be hard for them to turn down and then for a player who clearly

38:52doesn't seem as committed as you would want him to be hence the reason he's turned down the contracts so if they do cash in on him then it's all about how they spend the money and going back to the results at the end of last season not having Europe is a hurdle that Everton are having to overcome when selling the club to new players Yeah, really interesting talking about Hayden Hackney, Tyreek George Christian Norgard these could be players that in November were all going, oh, what a clever signing, what a great signing. Or they could be signings, couldn't they, where you're going, oh, not quite enough, we need a bit more type thing.

39:38It all feels quite finely balanced for Everton, doesn't it? And I think it's partly fuelled because they signed Tyler Diblin last summer and he's not been seen, really. Now, the question on that is, how much is that down to the player to ensure he's going to impress you know okay you come in and your first season doesn't go too well you know do you come back for pre-season with a new attitude right I'm going to show the manager that I need to be in all the lineups in pre-season I don't think that's been the case so far he's been playing Merlin Roll at times on the right so I think the sort of focus on Everton's transfers is born a little bit out of last season as well when Dibling came in, Tierno Barry came in who was hit and miss Adam Asnew came in, he's not been seen Keenan Dewsbury Hall came in and was successful, Jack Creelish was good until he got injured.

40:55So, yeah, you know, you live and die by your sirens in football and the next sort of three weeks are going to be big for both Liverpool and Everton. Even if there's an internal conviction within the two clubs' hierarchies that the squads are maybe better than they're getting given credit for now, I think they still need to add to them just to quieten down the outside sort of noise and get everybody totally aligned on the same page. Yeah, really interesting. A big couple of weeks for both clubs on Merseyside. Fascinating to hear from Paul Joyce. This will be the first in a series of chats I'll be having with our people out on their patches.

41:43We'll be hearing from Martin Hardy and Charlotte Dunker as well in the coming weeks, but we'll leave it there for now. Paul Joyce, thank you very much for joining me on today's episode of The Game Podcast. Thank you too to Martin Ziegler for chatting to me earlier in the show. And thank you too for listening. As always, we'll be back on another show on Monday. We'll see you then.